New Verne translation annotated

[quentin skrabec]

Does anyone know much about this june release???? 

From the Earth to the Moon: Annotated for Our Spacefaring Age (Imagination, Annotated)

Jules Verne, Anastasia Klimchynskaya (Editor), Walter James Miller (Translated by)

Current price:$30.00

Publish Date: June 30, 2026

Publisher:

 The MIT Press

ISBN:

 9780262553865

Pages:

 334

Language:

 English

[Dennis Kytasaari]

Yes, Ana is a member of this forum.

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[Tad Davis]

Thanks for the tip. I knew this was coming out but had lost track of the date. Ordered it!

— 
Tad Davis
tad.dav...@gmail.com

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[Ana Klimchynskaya]

Hi Quentin!

This is my edition that I've emailed the group about before- thanks for the extra publicity! Please note this is not a new translation but uses Walter Miller's, as the cover says. It has numerous essays and annotations however, that connect Verne to 20th century and modern-day spaceflight. Happy to answer any questions!

Anastasia 

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[quentin skrabec]

Was able to pre-order! Miller's original notes are my favorite!!!!!!!

quent

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Subject: Re: [JVF] New Verne translation annotated

 

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[William Butcher]

Dear all,

I'm looking forward to seeing this volume.

Although "Miller's" translation is generally accurate, It occasionally inserts extraneous religious or moralistic comments. Also, I get the impression that his French was not of the highest standard, that the translation was subcontracted.

Best

Bill

---

From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of quentin skrabec <qrsk...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2026 1:20 AM
To: Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [JVF] New Verne translation annotated

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

Please note that this new edition does not have Miller's annotations, only his translation, which was kindly licensed to us by his widow. 

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[quentin skrabec]

Are there any new annotations/ detailed footnotes etc?

quent

---

From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ana Klimchynskaya <anaklimc...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, May 25, 2026 3:31 PM

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[Ana Klimchynskaya]

Yes

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[Bookworm K]

     I'm new to this group.  I discovered the Verne works translation problem through a paperback 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Miller translation/forward essay back in high school, circa 1971o 1972.  I've always paid attention to this issue, as I've bought Verne editions over the years, and as I've read posts in this forum, I've wondered about what you folks think of Miller and his translations.  I'm curious as to your opinions about the Naval Academy Press edition of 20kLUtS, which I bought when it came out.  I also bought Miller's translation of From the Earth to the Moon, and if anyone knows why, if he was going to bother to do an annotated translated version of FtEttM, he didn't bother to include or separately publish its sequel, All around the Moon?

                             - Keith

[Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd]

Hi Keith,

I'm not at all an expert on English translations, but I believe these two articles may be of interest to you:

https://jv.gilead.org.il/evans/VerneTrans(biblio).html

https://jv.gilead.org.il/evans/VerneTrans(article).html

Cheers,

Garmt

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[Tad Davis]

I don't know what Miller's plans were at the time, but he's no longer with us. In addition to the links from Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd, there are several resources I would recommend, all of them without reservation, for additional translations. 

 

Oxford University Press has a number of translations in the Worlds Classics series by William Butcher (20,000 Leagues, Journey to the Center of the Earth, Around the World in 80 Days, and the two Moon novels in a single volume, the last done in collaboration with David Coward). First-rate and well-annotated, with many observations based on examination of early editions and manuscripts.

 

Frederick P. Walter, who collaborated with Miller on the Naval Institute book, separately published an anthology, Amazing Journeys, with the four "basic" Verne novels, if you count the two moon novels as a single book. Fresh, informal style, well illustrated.

 

Penguin Classics has three: 20,000 Leagues (translated by David Coward), also Around the World and Journey to the Center of the Earth, all new, good translations.

 

Wesleyan University Press has a series, Early Classics of Science Fiction, that includes a number of freshly-translated Verne novels with extensive introductions and notes: including Mysterious Island, Robur, the Mighty Orinoco, Invasion of the Sea among others.

 

Bison Frontiers of Imagination from Nebraska University has another first-rate set: Lighthouse at the End of the World, The Meteor Hunt, Wilhelm Storitz, The Golden Volcano, Magellania, The Self-Propelled Island.

 

And the North American Jules Verne Society, with BearManor Media, has published the Palik Series, with titles that had previous not been translated, including a number of plays and early works, including A Priest in 1835, The Count of Chanteleine, Golden Danube, Journey Through the Impossible, Scheherazade, and a number of anthologies of stories and essays.

 

There are "bits and pieces" you can find elsewhere. Modern Library published a good but un-annotated translation of Mysterious Island; the Luath Press published new translations of three Verne novels with Scottish settings; an Australian press (whose name escapes me at the moment) published a lovely new but apparently small-scale edition of Mikhail Strogoff (as they titled it); and Edward Baxter published translations of a couple of novels for a Canadian press. Don Sample self-published a new version of Captain Grant's Children, a true labor of love, Lulu Press I believe.

 

I'm sure that's only scratching the surface.

 

Unfortunately the market has been recently flooded with a number of "new" translations that were clearly AI-generated with minimal human review and editing. Caveat emptor. The more translations published by one person, the greater the number of source languages involved, and the less time elapsed between titles, the less likely it is that they put much if any effort into translating AI slop into something actually readable or true to the original. I'm not opposed to using AI tools—I can't be, because I've used them myself. But they are tools designed to assist, not to replace, human effort and decision-making. 

 

You didn't ask this, but I'll give you an example of what I mean. Here's an actual AI-translated version of a paragraph from Verne's novel A Drama in Livonia (which I'm currently working on):

 

"There was still the possibility that the aircraft would start moving as soon as daylight began, if the breeze got stronger. In this case, it would have been difficult to maintain the hub in a state of gyration. And, moreover, the miller, while he had come to dismember his canvases and maneuver the outer lever, would have seen this man finished at the crossing of the wings. But could the fugitive risk going down?... The wolves were still standing there, at the foot of the mound, roaring with sounds that would soon awaken a few neighboring houses!"

 

Aircraft? Maintaining the hub in a state of gyration? dismembering canvasses? finishing at the crossing of the wings? It's all useful as a crib when first stepping into the French, but here's what the paragraph is actually saying, in my considered opinion:

 

"There was always the possibility the sails [of the windmill] would start moving at daybreak, assuming the breeze picked up. It would be next to impossible for him to remain sitting on the end of the windshaft if it was turning. In any case, when the miller came to unfurl the sails of the windmill and unlock the brake wheel, he'd see the fugitive perched at the intersection of the sails. But how could he climb down now? The wolves were still there, at the foot of the hill, roaring loud enough to wake the neighboring houses!"

 

Tad Davis

— 
Tad Davis
tad.dav...@gmail.com

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[William Butcher]

Welcome to the Forum.

Miller's articles were accurate and  influential, but hypocritical, since his own first two attempts at Twenty Thousand Leagues were influenced by Mercier! His third attempt, for Naval Academy Press was generally pretty good.

I agree that publishing From the Earth to the Moon without Around the Moon is not satisfactory. Milller's From the Earth to the Moon is also generally a pretty good translation; and the notes to it are very good, although too Anglocentric. The volume sold badly, which was why he was unable to do Around the Moon - publishers follow the market.

Bill

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From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bookworm K <kbk...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2026 11:30 PM

To: Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [JVF] (New Verne translation annotated)

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[William Butcher]

Tad,

Thanks for a comprehensive and fair-minded survey.

Bill

---

From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tad Davis <tad.dav...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2026 2:17 AM
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [JVF] (New Verne translation annotated)

 

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[d...@epguides.com]

Keith,

 

We have a portion of our website (North American Jules Verne Society) where we are trying to point folks to the better English language translations out there.

 

http://najvs.org/works/

 

Tad,

 

Perhaps you can help me with filling in some more details on this page.

 

-djk

Dennis Kytasaari  d...@epguides.com  https://epguides.com/

                                  https://epguides.com/djk/

Jules Verne- "Mobilis in Mobile"     http://najvs.org/

President and Membership Coordinator  na...@ibiblio.org

 North American Jules Verne Society, Inc.

 

 

From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Tad Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2026 1:18 PM
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JVF] (New Verne translation annotated)

 

I don't know what Miller's plans were at the time, but he's no longer with us. In addition to the links from Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd, there are several resources I would recommend, all of them without reservation, for additional translations. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/6030d193-46d4-4e35-80fd-dd02535933c7%40Spark.

[quentin skrabec]

I know there are translation issues but i love Miller's technical notes. Quent

[quentin skrabec]

Tad

Great example of AI issues- sadly, but that's the future. We all complain about older translations, but AI can make them look accurate. AI likes to force modern terms and words, maybe it has some entertainment value, but not for research. i would avoid AI except maybe for children's modified books. Happy that someone is making a list of AI translations for future reference. All that being said, in twenty years AI translations may be able to examine many factors in the translation such as period, technical lexicon, phraseology, etc but we are far from that

Quent

[Keith Kurek]

To all:

     Reports of AI product from all sources produce results of extremely uneven quality at best.  Wonderful breakthroughs are announced, and yet we also hear many, many reports of "AI hallucinations", made-up nonsense, false data, attempted AI-generated blackmail of its software engineers in tests (yes, it's true - read the recent New Yorker article), and so forth.  My own experience in using it has shown that it can produce extraordinary results inextricably mixed with garbage.  Anything it produces has to be rigorously fact-checked.  I can't believe that people are trusting their business decisions, law cases, and even medical decisions and their lives to this stuff.  What is most unbelievable is that the political leaders of the world want to have their militaries eventually deploy AI-controlled autonomous weapons.  Sheer madness!!!  As far as the SF world is concerned, i don't know if you folks read File  770, an online SF/F news outlet, but authors report AI spouted nonsense there all the time...  It is a technology that is simply not mature enough to be trusteed.  A study of the people at the top in places like Silicon Valley reveals  a rogues' gallery of avaricious actual sociopaths or virtual sociopaths promoting this tech without any conscience or inhibitions whatever.

       On a more positive note, I do very much appreciate the many responses of this group about Walter Miller and Verne translation resources.  They are excellent.  Thank you.

                               - Keith

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[Tad Davis]

I have an example that I think is directly relevant to Verne and indirectly relevant to the use of AI tools in translation.

 

Some time ago I was working on the story "In the Year 2889." I was aware that there were three different versions of the story and that the text I was working from was the latest version, which incorporated changes made by both Jules and his son Michel. I also had the text of the first version of the story. I wanted to find an article in English that would help me understand what changed between each of the three versions. I queried one of the AI tools on the internet, and it told me there was an article by Arthur Evans that would give me the information I was looking for. It was, it said, published in the journal Verniana, and it gave me the title and the publication date.

 

I went to Verniana and looked up the issue. There was an article by Arthur Evans in that issue, but it wasn't the one I was looking for. There was, in fact, no article with that title by Arthur Evans in any of the issues of Verniana. The AI tool had partly hallucinated its response to my query. But it turned out to be only a partial hallucination. Tracking back a couple of issues, I did find an article by Arthur Evans with a different title, but which covered exactly the subject I was interested in. It gave side-by-side translations of the different versions of the story, so that it was easy to see exactly what changed between versions. In fact, it included a table that called out the specific paragraph by paragraph changes. I had hit paydirt.

 

This somewhat resembles the experience that I've had using AI-based tools as an aid to translation. The results they give are often obviously wrong, sometimes laughably so. But even when they're wrong, they can, when checked back against the original, provide clues that lead to a correct, or at least a better, understanding.

 

The problem with AI doesn't lie in what the tool is able to do, but in the exaggerated claims made for it by the people who were trying to sell it, and in the shocking gullibility of people who think it's actually a fount of wisdom. To my way of thinking, in our current technological environment, AI is roughly analogous to what Google was twenty-five years ago. It's a place to start looking when you don't know where else to go. It is not a place to finish.

 

Tad

— 
Tad Davis
tad.dav...@gmail.com

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[Christian Sánchez]

The three versions can be found on my website: https://www.ara.org.ar/chs/verne/comparaf.html

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/28a6f5ab-3b4c-4f69-a27a-423dde82500c%40Spark.

[James D. Keeline]

Which AI system is vital to any conversation.  They are not all the same.  It's like saying "the Internet says".  Who wrote what on what site?  I see that a follow up mentions Gemini.  Note that even here there is a distinction between the engine used in conjunction with a Google search and what you get with gemini.google.com.

I have had a similar experience with Gemini (latter link) that is more confined.  With Verniana there are many annual volumes and a confusing index can mislead the system.  Plus, the AI tools save time and energy by spot checking data.

In my case I was asking about a known public domain plot generator called Plotto from William Wallace Cook in 1928.  I asked the system to identify which story number corresponded with a well known Horatio Alger, Jr. plot Ragged Dick (1868).  It came up with some plausible results.  But when I looked at a copy of the text for the number specified or the keywords used, they were not to be found.  I want round and round with the system for about 15 minutes when it became clear that with the prompt I used, it was not able to avoid the hallucinations.  I might try another method of supplying a TXT version and more explicit instructions.

But what this shows is that any AI system, as bad as ChatGPT is or one of the better ones, needs to be carefully vetted on a continuous basis.  Almost never is the first response ready for use.

James D. Keeline

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[Ana Klimchynskaya]

AI systems hallucinate. It doesn't matter which one. It is an inbuilt feature of them that they hallucinate. We have had this "debate" about AI many times in this group, and at this point, reiterating it once again is just beating a dead horse. 

Moreover, when it comes to translation, I, at least, would want a human doing it because language and literature are expressions of human experience. Only a human being who has lived in and experienced those two languages can translate a human experience or expression across language, in my opinion. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAGvpz09orhET1a2u4bsYdS6J1baOWq3_R9K%3DwmB7t3EVABkqSg%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Butcher]

The best machine translators are as good as some human translators: they're better on some technical aspects. I used to dictate (to a human, later to a PC) a first draft; now machines can reach the same general standard. 30 years ago, I wouldn't have believed that progress could be made so quickly.

Bill

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From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ana Klimchynskaya <anaklimc...@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2026 3:07 AM
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [JVF] (New Verne translation annotated)

 

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[Ana Klimchynskaya]

Technical aspects, maybe. They will always lack a human's understanding of human experience. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/BN7PR14MB2114B16341B08DC866182F55FA162%40BN7PR14MB2114.namprd14.prod.outlook.com.

[John Lamb]

What about A.I. and Verne's plagiarism? Is not plagiarism a form of translation, this time by Verne himself?

Bill gives examples that Verne 'cut and pasted' other authors' work and as  A.I. is now routinely used to catch University students out who do the same. The savvy student (of whom I include Verne) of course will given alternative words to the obvious 'key words' and alter their order.  Advanced A.I. will pick this out now and to a greater extent in future.

I can think of quite a few examples with Verne's writings where A.I. may (eventually) give an unbiased view (without the bias in this case of 'human experience') as to whether Verne is plagiarising others, plagiarising his own work or reverse plagiarising.

A few examples are listed below.

The satirisation of Nathaniel Hawthorne's English notebooks in the description of the Park in The Floating Island (reverse plagiarism where the opposite to Hawthorne is stated).

The similar phrases and wordology between Verne's description of the iron coast in The Mysterious Island and his description of Liverpool Docks in Backwards Britain (self plagiarism)

The use of the patent for Prices candles in candle making in The Mysterious Island (commercial industrial plagiarism) 

The shape of the map and salient features (South westerly Serpentine Peninsula, Road to the Far West , north west position of grotto and matching promontories) when compared to the Lower Lake in Birkenhead Park (visual plagiarism potentially recognised by A.I. pattern recognition). I will submit a contrasting article on this to the forum. 

The character of Jup / Jupiter in Verne's Mysterious Island and the character of Jupiter / Jup in Poe's The Gold Bug (political / moral plagiarism). 

Recurring phrases and pattern recognition ('Boulevard des Italiens et al The Floating Island, Around the World in Eighty Days and I think at least one other.

The use of normal and reverse syllables in character names (Arden, Munbar....). 

 

When Verne plagiarises (translates his own and others work), then modern and more advanced  A.I. (in thirty years say) will pick it up to a greater degree of accuracy. This is why Verne's whole works should eventually be digitalised in a central database, including the Palik series. 

Ultimately A.I. will be able to give a conclusion as to whether Verne's plagiarism is more an intentional homage (which I believe it is), so advancing Verne studies rather than just laziness on his part. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAHFv7gW2RtJeA%2BkCH0U7ux5OL%2Bdt8WLAr%3DuFu-JLtFd-rhAz6Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

Plagiarism is bad regardless of whether a human or a machine is doing it :) 

However, satire, homage, and inspiration are not plagiarism. Authors are always responding to the work of others. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAJ0ud42n_HAT%3DJYeKB18iLRg5DU5d18oEiuOUnWmHdBRgobdAA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Don Sample]

Also, patents are public domain documents. You can reprint, descibe, and depict people using patented inventions all you want. The patent just stops you from actually making the thing without the patent holder’s permission.

On May 30, 2026, at 2:26 PM, Ana Klimchynskaya <anaklimc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Lamb]

Hi Ana,

 you replied 

'However, satire, homage, and inspiration are not plagiarism'... 

I do not think that is 100% true.   

Firstly, if that satire involves Verne simply selecting a few paragraphs of Hawthorn's writings and then writing the direct opposite (which is a very basic skill) and without referencing Hawthorne, then he is plagiarizing Hawthorne's sentence structure and composition. This is an element of plagiarism which fits Verne's known behaviour as an occasional plagiarist (the 'cut and paste' passages identified by William Butcher). 

What I am saying is that an advanced A.I. 'plagiarism finder' may eventually be the arbiter in deciding whether Verne is indeed copying Hawthorne's text, composition and sentence structure but not naming Hawthorne as his source... so advancing Verne studies as to why he is doing this. 

Dear Don, 

You said

'Also, patents are public domain documents. You can reprint, describe, and depict people using patented inventions all you want. The patent just stops you from actually making the thing without the patent holder’s permission'.

agreed, maybe I should have said copying rather than plagiarising in this sense. 

If we agree that Verne was an occasional plagiarist / copier then again,  this known behaviour would make it more likely that he then copies Prices' Patent for candle making in probably the most tedious two pages in The Mysterious Island. Again A.I. comparing the real passage and Prices' Patent would be the arbiter as to whether Verne is referring to Prices' over other companies

This is important as Prices' were major abolitionists with a Royal Warrant granted by Queen Victoria and this suggests an abolitionist message that Verne wishes to convey along with many others on the Mysterious Island. . 

Best John 

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

At the moment, AI 'plagiarism detectors" say novels written in the 19th-century are likely AI-written. They're useless. 

In the future, I don't need a machine to tell me if something is plagiarism. I'm much more interested in human judgment. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/f4232aea-08a3-4d12-be61-851800497dd8n%40googlegroups.com.

[John Lamb]

Yes, but human judgement on Verne's more subtle type of plagiarism is subjective and two people may totally disagree whether a passage by Verne is plagiarism or not, and this is where advanced A.I. may eventually be the objective  arbiter between the two.  Do you want me to include the relevant Hawthorne / Verne passage to illustrate my point? There is a theoretical sliding scale here which could in future be decided by A.I. .....1. Straightforward Plagiarism by Verne. 2. Plagiarism by Verne as a tool for satire. 3. Not plagiarism but definite inspiration link between two passages. 4. Neither plagiarism nor inspiration (i.e. no relation between the two passages other than coincidence). William Butcher when he accused Verne of 'cut and paste' is level 1. All my research posts on this forum, for example the alleged links between Raphael Semmes and the character of Captain Nemo, deal with the more subtle levels 2 and 3, whereas  those who disagree with me, including William Butcher are firmly in level 4. This is why I know A.I. will vindicate me in the end. The Hawthorne / Verne passage would be a nice little tester if you and others want to pass your judgement on it on the sliding scale suggested. It is only a five minute read.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAHFv7gW4xaH_Xu1g7%2BnRo8tKPj016YKJvhYquc2jPXa7QcxdCQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

I neither want nor need a machine to be an "objective arbiter" of human creations. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAJ0ud43_yyv%2BOA%3Dw%2BpfSUCm4K%3D31tXw2hyZtMGBwXNjEeYQYOg%40mail.gmail.com.

[volker.dehs]

Dear Ana, so I do!!

Plagiarism is one of numerous and very different literary methods which are subsumed under the term of Intertextuality. Daniel Compère has published a very interesting investigation of their realizations in Verne's work (Jules Verne écrivain, Droz, 1991). His results are certainly for discussion in Vernian contexts, but strictly indispensable.

John, note that "plagiarism" has always differently seen and evaluated in different regions and times of the world. And the view is different in 19th century from that of our world (before and after Internet, before and after AI).

If you are interested in a real case of Verne's work, have a look an the Pont-Jest affair (about Centre of the Earth, around 1877), well documented in Bulletin de la Société Jules Verne no. 135 (2000), pp. 8-55, and n° 208 (2024), pp. 10-72.

It's of no interest to be prodigal with the term "plagiarism"!

[Tad Davis]

I think there's a category of unconscious or accidental plagiarism that can arise from lapses in note-taking. Given Verne's voluminous collection of notes, this may or may not be relevant.

 

I grew up in an age when we were taught to take research notes on 3x5 index cards. We were supposed to note what others said about our topic but—unless we specifically wanted to quote them—rephrase it in our own words on the card. Sometimes it was hard to do this and retain the meaning, and only a few words would be different. 

 

I never ran into this myself, but I can easily believe that when collating a thousand index cards for a book, something you thought you'd reworded on a notecard was actually a direct quote, or uncomfortably close to one; or even that in rewording a reworded note for a paper you accidentally ended up with text too close to the original. This is why I can believe that at least some of the time, at least in the past, when someone claimed that a bit of plagiarism was accidental, they may have been telling the truth. 

 

Of course with today's technology, all bets are off. 

 

Tad

— 
Tad Davis
tad.dav...@gmail.com

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/bb8d7265-fb61-4a93-b64a-4f081634c2d1n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ron Miller]

I don't think that one can "plagiarize" sentence structure...especially when one author is writing in one language and the other author in another language. It's like saying that one artist plagiarized another by copying a style of brushstroke even though the two paintings are entirely different.

R

On Sun, 31 May, 2026 at 12:14 PM, volker.dehs <triful...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

To: jules verne forum

[Rafael Ontivero]

One can do it with a translation. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/WYDN62DRETU4.1YI9ZX2NSHGU%40luweb02oc.

[Ron Miller]

We are talking about simple sentence structure---i.e. style---here, not the words. Two entirely different sentences on entirely different subjects using entirely different words can have the same structure.

George loaned his car to Fred.

Phyllis sold her stock to the broker.

Same structure, different words and different meanings.

R

On Sun, 31 May, 2026 at 1:53 PM, Rafael Ontivero <rafael....@gmail.com> wrote:

 

To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/B47746EC-3A30-4288-BA17-2C33D9801D3F%40gmail.com.

[quentin skrabec]

Tad

Had the same training as a youth. To accuse someone, dead or alive, is serious. All writers rephrase - there are very few new ideas. I footnote an important idea - even many an editor has told me that I am overdoing it; others want every other sentence footnoted. Only true proof of plagiarism is word for word. I feel that footnoting a unique idea is important, but again it's a choice. I write for many different worlds, magazines don't want footnotes, so you have to embed the reference in the text if it's a significant idea. It's all tough calls. My bigger problem is the weaponization of all this by others. A good friend of mine had her career destroyed because of an unproven accusation of AI use. In his case, she was rephrasing, which is what AI algorithms do. It's a tough world out there; critics outnumber writers by 20 to 1, but never let fear hold you back from writing. Many people hate others' success. If you are successful in any field, expect to be attacked. Successful writers understand and rise above the critics.

Quent

---

From: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tad Davis <tad.dav...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2026 1:09 PM
To: Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>

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[John Lamb]

Let us get back to the simplest base level of what I am saying. 

A.I. may detect direct plagiarism by Verne in comparison to any other author,  that is an accepted fact which I hope we can agree upon and a useful tool in the study of Verne.

Advanced A.I.  will therefore eventually be able to detect  Verne's plagiarism which is a bit more subtle, indeed, where  Verne copies another author's content and style and then writes the direct opposite as satire. I believe I have uncovered an example of this with Verne using the writings of Nathaniel Hawthorne.

Here are the relevant Hawthorne / Verne passages which forum members may have a subjective opinion on as to whether there is or is not a conscious link between the two pieces of work. The fact is that advanced A.I. will eventually come down on one side or the other and none of us will have the contextual knowledge to effectively overrule  that A.I.decision'

Having said that, in my own opinion it is 'bloody obvious' that Verne is satirizing' Hawthorne😄...to others Ana, it is not obvious and so this is where I am quite happy for A.I. to be the arbiter. 

Yesterday afternoon J and I went to Birkenhead Park, which I have already described. It so happened there was a large school spending its holiday there; a school of girls of the lower classes, to the number of a hundred and fifty, who disported themselves on the green under the direction of the schoolmistress and of an old gentleman. It struck me, as it always has, to observe how the lower orders of this country indicate their birth and station by their aspect and features. In America there would be a good deal of grace and beauty among a hundred and fifty children and budding girls, belonging to whatever rank of life. But here they had most universally a plebian look, - stubbed, sturdy figures, round, coarse faces, snub-noses, - the most evident specimens of the brown bread of human nature. They looked wholesome and good enough, and fit to sustain their rough share of life, but it would have been impossible to make a lady out of any one of them. 

Climate, no doubt, has much to do with diffusing a slender elegance over American young womanhood; but something perhaps is also due to the circumstances of classes not being kept apart as they are here.

Nathanial Hawthorne English Notebooks (1853). 

At this time the park was crowded. From the tower it looked like an immense basket of flowers. The people were crowding in, grown men and young folks, none of those little fops which are the shame of the great cities of Europe, but strong well-built adults. Women and girls, most of them in pale straw-coloured dresses, the hue preferred in the torrid zone, leading little lap dogs in silk coats with chains laced with gold. Here and there these people were following the sandy paths, capriciously winding among the lawns. Some were reclining on the cushions of electric cars, others were seated on benches sheltered by the trees. Farther off young gentlemen were playing tennis, and cricket, and golf, and also polo, mounted on spirited ponies. Groups of children – American children of astonishing exuberance, among whom originality is so precocious, particularly in the case of the girls – were playing on the grass. Great rejoicings took place in the park, where the sporting events were brought off with great enthusiasm. The different classes associated together.

Jules Verne The Floating Island 1895. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/B47746EC-3A30-4288-BA17-2C33D9801D3F%40gmail.com.

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

In order for an AI to 'detect plagiarism,' you will need to give it a definition of plagiarism, because - contrary to what the term AI suggests - this technology isn't actually conscious or thinking. It doesn't know what the words it's spitting out mean. 

Which means, you will still need a human definition of plagiarism - a definition that, judging by this thread, is unlikely to find consensus. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAJ0ud42J89hJGFBCZ%2BOwP1D2tr4jA1piWYR09wP7GSDdBhcXFA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Lamb]

Ana, if you have not sussed it out already I am not really talking about plagiarism at all, so a definition is irrelevant. I am talking about  literary inspiration and the potential for A.I. now or in the future being able to detect literary inspiration as a natural evolution from being able to detect plagiarism. 

I reckon even present day A.I. would confirm the Hawthorne / Verne link given the text I have just provided. 

...but in the absence of that, let us get back to your quote 

'I'm much more interested in human judgment'. 

So please give me your human judgement on the possible Nathaniel Hawthorne (who lived at the bottom of my rod by the way) Jules Verne link for these two passages.

I suspect you will not answer that question ....hence the need for A.I. 😂

Best John.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAHFv7gVnuhpZoL9Md%2BJL%2B7dv5KR7bWdK%3D%3DWqRZcj%2BR9DEcGrGQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

John, 

I'm uninterested in arguing, or debating, or discussing with someone who is convinced my answer will be insufficient and would prefer the AI answer. :) 

But, even if human judgment is flawed, that doesn't make AI judgment less so. The belief that AI is somehow unbiased or all-knowing is a puerile fantasy. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAJ0ud41w4zVPX9OKp39JWSTbWcJe7Q34U_T6ETH9MzYUMS%2BCMA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Lamb]

Dear Ana, 

you say

'I'm uninterested in arguing, or debating, or discussing with someone who is convinced my answer will be insufficient' 

... goodness that limits world debate then ... I hope you do not say that in your university tutorials! 

you say that I

... 'would prefer the AI answer'. :) 

 ....No. I would much prefer your academic answer and others on the forum to A.I.  in this case, the one example I have randomly picked between the potential link between the writings of Hawthorne and Verne... in the absence of any answers from yourself or the forum  I would then have to turn to A.I. as a last resort as the only possible verification to build upon.  

In my opinion it is a very interesting hypothesis (I hope) to Verne scholars that I have discovered a new facet in Verne's writing involving satire re Hawthorne and also potentially linking to very real issues to The American Civil War, British colonialism, the slave trade and abolition ...all of massive interest to Verne, but frankly rather uncomfortable for me to write about...but there it is. 

Best John

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAHFv7gVpmBsDag_4o47MtTGZvZy9uc%3DRrjWE7T8hFQ9qZJWThw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ana Klimchynskaya]

have you considered that, in the absence of answers from myself or others, you don't have to turn to AI as a 'last resort'? Have you considered turning to your own brain instead? 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jules-verne-forum/CAJ0ud41K%3DQfgtVhaQdgBPnBsK1_50mEDmWOtsXtyxdNEV%2BrKEA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Lamb]

Dear Volker 

 

Thank you, I will certainly look at the Journey to the Centre of the Earth case, you mention, I did come across it in William Butcher's writings. You state 'It's of no interest to be prodigal with the term "plagiarism"!, I agree but I was using  plagiarism merely as a start point on a sliding scale regarding the future use of A.I. in detecting literary inspiration, I take it this is the  Intertextuality you refer to. 

I did state previously to Ana.

 'I am not really talking about plagiarism at all, so a definition is irrelevant. I am talking about  literary inspiration and the potential for A.I. now or in the future being able to detect literary inspiration as a natural evolution from being able to detect plagiarism.

 Quent and Tad, I agree that accusations of plagiarism can blight lives. I will avoid  using the term plagiarism and 'subtle plagiarism' re Verne as actually it is quite a brilliant writing style on his part which bears very close association to history, places, technology, slavery and the American Civil War in the roman a clef style. My research attempts to show very strong literary inspiration rather than plagiarism. That is my real goal.

 In returning to A.I. I give a hypothetical question below which I myself would ask A.I. regarding the Hawthorne / Verne text connection below. 

 Ana, of course doesn't know that I have indeed already  'considered using my brain' in contextualising the possible Hawthorne / Verne link in The Floating Island in terms of the whole novel, and indeed posted it on the forum as a 51 page document some time ago. So I reattach the full contextual analysis below, just for you Ana (The actual Hawthorne / Verne quotes are on page 36 !).

 Why I should be pilloried for 'not using my brain' merely for seeing if A.I. has the potential to support my already considerable research on the Verne / Hawthorne context (see attachment) now or in the future I do not know, but I think I am getting more thicker skinned.  

 p.s.    Here is the hypothetical question which A.I.could probably not answer now but which probably could do so in future. 

 Analyse the two passages below for content and sentence structure. Given the context of both the writings of the authors Jules Verne and Nathanial Hawthorne, together with their common lived experiences in the United Kingdom, assess the probability that Verne is satirizing Hawthorne. 

  Yesterday afternoon J and I went to Birkenhead Park, which I have already described. It so happened there was a large school spending its holiday there; a school of girls of

 the lower classes, to the number of a hundred and fifty, who disported themselves on the green under the direction of the schoolmistress and of an old gentleman. It struck me,

 as it always has, to observe how the lower orders of this country indicate their birth and station by their aspect and features. In America there would be a good deal of grace

 and beauty among a hundred and fifty children and budding girls, belonging to whatever rank of life. But here they had most universally a plebian look, - stubbed, sturdy

 figures, round, coarse faces, snub-noses, - the most evident specimens of the brown bread of human nature. They looked wholesome and good enough, and fit to sustain their

 rough share of life, but it would have been impossible to make a lady out of any one of them. Climate, no doubt, has much to do with diffusing a slender elegance over

 American young womanhood; but something perhaps is also due to the circumstances of classes not being kept apart as they are here.

Nathanial Hawthorne English Notebooks (1853). 

 At this time the park was crowded. From the tower it looked like an immense basket of flowers. The people were crowding in, grown men and young folks, none of those

 little fops which are the shame of the great cities of Europe, but strong well-built adults. Women and girls, most of them in pale straw-coloured dresses, the hue preferred

 in the torrid zone, leading little lap dogs in silk coats with chains laced with gold. Here and there these people were following the sandy paths, capriciously winding

 among the lawns. Some were reclining on the cushions of electric cars, others were seated on benches sheltered by the trees. Farther off young gentlemen were playing

 tennis, and cricket, and golf, and also polo, mounted on spirited ponies. Groups of children – American children of astonishing exuberance, among whom originality is

 so precocious, particularly in the case of the girls – were playing on the grass. Great rejoicings took place in the park, where the sporting events were brought off with

 great enthusiasm. The different classes associated together.

Jules Verne The Floating Island 1895. 

 

... and here is my good old fashioned traditional research providing contextual evidence that Verne is satirizing Hawthorne, I hope you enjoy reading it Ana!

Best John