A Challenge to James D Keeline
John Lamb
Semmes was branded a pirate by Abraham Lincoln, who put a bounty on Semmes’s head, and Semmes was chased around the seas by Admiral Farragut of the US Navy. Nemo, conversely, was branded a pirate by Captain Farragut of the US Navy, who put a bounty on Nemo’s head, and Nemo was chased around the seas by the ship Abraham Lincoln. Both Semmes and Nemo encounter an imaginary island, sail through a patch of white water, encounter fake Havana cigars, mention coral mausoleums, shelter in an extinct volcanic island, and have their final battle off Cherbourg. Semmes had a portrait of the Confederate President, Jefferson Davis, in his cabin while Nemo had a portrait of the Union President, Abraham Lincoln, in his. In other words, if The Great Eastern was the template for the Nautilus, then the CSS Alabama was the latter’s real-life alter-ego.
William Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2025 11:51 AM
To: Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [JVF] A Challenge to James D Keeline
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Jean-Louis Trudel
Dear John, you write: "Both Semmes and Nemo encounter an imaginary
cigars, mention coral mausoleums, shelter in an extinct volcanic
island, and have their final battle off Cherbourg."
off Cherbourg. While this is verbally correct, this is the type of
coincidence that falls apart when you look at it closely, esp. if you
want it to support an identification of Nemo with Semmes.
The most striking aspect here is that the Nemo's Nautilus was not sunk
near Cherbourg, while the Alabama did sink. As far as Aronnax was
concerned, the Nautilus might have sunk in the Maelström, but he
wasn't sure. A second point is that there is no evidence the Nautilus
battled a ship near Cherbourg. Cherbourg is not mentioned in Vingt
mille lieues sous les mers. The last definite indication is that the
Nautilus sailed between Land's End and the Scilly Islands, and did NOT
turn east into the Channel. Verne provides coordinates for the
sinking of the Vengeur, which he also wants to be the grave of the
British ship: 47 degrees 24 minutes (North), 17 degrees 28 minutes
(West). Whether Verne is using the Paris or the Greenwich meridian,
this would appear to be well to the west of France, far from land, but
closer to Brest or Cork than Cherbourg. (In fact, it looks like
Cherbourg is only marginally closer than Birkenhead.) Even if we go
by the last definite location, what is south of Land's End? Brest, if
anything.
Nor do we know that this was Nemo's last battle. Between Vingt milles
lieues sous les mers and L'Île mystérieuse, some time has passed, and
I don't believe Verne states that the Nautilus retired directly to the
island.
So, that's one coincidence that falls apart.
On the whole, I can believe Verne would have borrowed from the
adventures of the Alabama and Semmes, and was influenced by them, but
a direct one-to-one match remains unconvincing.
Jean-Louis Trudel
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John Lamb
Dear Jean-Louis,
Thankyou so much for your reply, please feel free to 'cherry pick' and grill me on any one of my 100 Semmes / Nemo links. You quote from my
article in the International Review of science fiction (2025) but this is also number 84 in my 100 Semmes / Nemo links table (see the other
thread), leading on to 85 as both Semmes and Nemo are
84. A captain who has his final battle off Cherbourg with an enemy…
85 … a wooden ship protected by metal armour above the waterline.
I am so pleased you chose the issue of ‘the final battle off Cherbourg’ as this is one of the highlights of the novel and reciprocally should also be
one of the highlights of linking Semmes and Nemo, after all Verne, asks under the guise of Aronnax.
Will the waves one day wash up the manuscript containing the entire story of his life? Will I finally discover his name?
I, of course maintain the manuscript containing the entire story of his life has indeed washed up in the form of Semmes’s Memoirs of
Service Afloat During the War Between the States (1869) from which the vast majority (but not all) of the 100-matching Semmes /Nemo links
with 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas were taken.
Aronnax also writes
Will the nationality of the vessel sunk tell us Captain Nemo’s own nationality?
I will answer this in due course; I might as well throw this one in as well from Aronnax regarding Nemo.
Had he been one of the heroes of that terrible American Civil War, that frightful but forever glorious battle….?
You say of the final battle off Cherbourg ‘this is the type of coincidence that falls apart when you look at it closely, esp. if you want it to support an
identification of Nemo with Semmes’.
I can only quote William Butcher regarding ‘this is the type of coincidence that falls apart’ via Google translate. Bill in his French edition of 20,000
Leagues seems quite happy that in this one case there may be a link between the CSS Alabama and the Nautilus, so out of 99 Semmes Nemo /
links in my table you have chosen the one that is partially backed up by William Butcher!
Bill writes.
John
The Southern Alabama, which claimed to have sunk seventy-five merchant ships, was destroyed off Cherbourg on June 19, 1864. Manet's Battle of the Kearsarge and the Alabama (1865) may have inspired the final battle of Nemo, which took place nearby. This ship, built by the Laird shipyards of Birkenhead in 1862, caused a dispute between the United States and Great Britain, which was ordered to pay heavy compensation in 1872.
Bonne continuation!
bill
Now regarding the ‘coincidence’ falling apart because as you
say ‘Nemo's Nautilus was not
sunk near Cherbourg, while the Alabama did sink’.
This is not the point, Semmes under the guise of his alter ego Nemo, is getting revenge on the USS Kearsarge. It is all about vengeance, ably
demonstrated in Semmes’s bitter memoirs and the sunken grave of the Vengeur in the novel representing the sunken grave of the CSS Alabama.
You can of course only make this interpretation if you believe the other 98 Semmes / Nemo links in my table …the alternative is no explanation
and potentially a vast amount of untapped knowledge of how Verne worked staying hidden . Hence my detailed answer to your posting and any
other posting by forum members.
Both the CSS Alabama and the Nautilus have their final battle off the coast of Cherbourg (how far off, as I think William Butcher agrees is not
massively the point) with a warship protected by a metal covering. At Cherbourg the Alabama fought the USS Kearsarge protected above the
waterline by 700 linear feet of anchor chain, this massively infuriated Semmes in his memoirs as his artillery just bounced off (remember this is
the technological cusp in the change from wooden to ironclad ships).
So to Verne, if we believe the 100 Semmes / Nemo links, the Nautilus, in an act of vengeance rams an unnamed vessel (based on the USS
Kearsarge) similarly protected by what Verne calls an ‘impenetrable cuirass’ (armour), below the waterline. In fiction at least Raphael Semmes,
under the guise of Nemo is getting his act of revenge on the Kearsarge. Remember also that Semmes, after the loss of the CSS Alabama did
actually captain a futuristic ironclad ram designed to sink wooden ships (CSS Virginia II designed by John Mercer Brooke) which he scuttled by
blowing it up, so perhaps inspiring the end of the Nautilus in The Mysterious Island (link number 4 in my table).
So, this answers Verne’s own question
Will the nationality of the vessel sunk tell us Captain Nemo’s own nationality?
The vessel sunk is symbolic of the American USS Kearsarge and it tells us that Nemo’s own nationality is half the Confederate Semmes, as also
borne out in the 100 links in my table, and half Unionist as borne out by the portraits of Abraham Lincoln and John Brown in his cabin. It took me
a year before I read William Butcher’s translation as my previous translation did not include the portraits and so it was massively skewed
towards the Confederate Semmes, so for one year I was so stressed that Verne had created a political situation far far worse than the Polish
count... so thanks Bill!.
Nemo is a tormented metaphor for America itself, an America at war with itself for the abolition of slavery. Nemo is thus a complex manifestation
of the political cartoons of the day which often showed the country at war with itself by depicting Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln fighting
with complex iconography, symbols and key words around them. Look up the political cartoons of Thomas Nast to see what I mean.
In fact here is a great link Cartoons | Civil War | Political Cartoonist | Thomas Nast
So the whole of 20,000 Leagues and its sequel The Mysterious Island is just a grossly inflated version of the Civil War cartoons of the day centred
around the geopolitics of Britain’s meddling in the American Civil War and then working out the peace that followed.
The Alabama's motto is 'God Helps those who helps themselves' and this is the whole theme of the Mysterious Island, where Nemo (playing god)
finds his redemption in helping the castaways build a successful multiracial mini America following the end of the Civil War.
The CSS Alabama was sunk by the USS Kearsarge on 19th June 1864, according to Arthur Sinclairs biography (1895)… ‘The Alabama’s final
plunge was a remarkable freak’ and ‘making a whirlpool of considerable size and strength’ and this (given the other 99 Semmes / Nemo links) is
quite probably where Verne got the idea of the Norwegian Maelstrom from. Whether the Nautilus goes down it or not, again is not the point. My
point is that the Alabama’s whirlpool meant that Verne created a note on a piece of paper that were amongst many that Verne probably threw on
the floor and rearranged it in to his plot line. Like some mad chef chucking in any ingredients he could find for a risotto.
You also state
‘Nor do we know that this was Nemo's last battle. Between Vingt milles lieues sous les mers and L'Île mystérieuse, some time has passed, and I
don't believe
Verne states that the Nautilus retired directly to the island. So, that's one
coincidence that falls apart’.
It was Nemo’s last battle in 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas and according to William Butcher ‘the final battle of Nemo’ so I must disagree. This
one ‘coincidence’ does not fall apart, in fact it neatly dovetails into everything I have said (including the other 99 Semmes / Nemo links) and far
more importantly everything that Verne has written in 20,000 Leagues and The Mysterious Island (which thank goodness is a discussion for
another day).
'You say 'Between Vingt milles lieues sous les mers and L'Île mystérieuse, some time has passed' ...not really as Mysterious Island starts in April
1865 and 20,000 Leagues starts in 1866...don't you just love Jules Verne!
I believe you have chosen what you perceive to be a weak point (perhaps what you perceive to be the weakest out of 100 Semmes / Nemo links
in my research?) and I have given, what I believe is very a robust defence combining the words of both Jules Verne and William Bucher with real
historical events and eyewitness testimonies thrown in. I have then suggested a mechanism of how Verne worked in constructing his plot lines
(repeated in the Mysterious Island).
I believe the 100 Semmes / Nemo links are very convincing and so I must disagree with you.
As I have said before people who doubt the inspiration of Semmes / The Alabama / Birkenhead / link to Verne will end up having a conversation
with the great man himself and I believe you have done just that.
Please grill me on any other of the 98 points. You can see how complex this is in justifying all 100 links by quoting Semmes, Nemo and history…
all I can say is thank goodness there is no word limit for articles in Verniana.
Best wishes John
Marie-Hélène Huet
Sent: Wednesday, 22 October 2025 22:17
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [JVF] Re: A Challenge to James D Keeline
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Jean-Louis Trudel
Dear John, you seem to have problems reading my contribution. I've
already agreed that Semmes may well have inspired Verne. (It's there.
Go back and read it.) My contention is that influence does not equate
to one-to-one equivalence.
To sum up:
i) the Nautilus battle is not anywhere near Cherbourg;
ii) the Nautilus was not sunk;
iii) there is still no evidence that this was Nemo's final battle;
iv) is Nemo closer to Semmes or to Winslow in the role of "avenger"?
Winslow is the captain of the Kearsarge and is avenging the damages
done by Semmes to Union shipping, by sinking the Alabama. What is
Semmes avenging by losing a battle, a ship, and some of his crew?
Rather a contradiction in terms, as far as that goes. (The South was
hardly a victim needing to be avenged; it started the war to defend
slavery.)
Jean-Louis Trudel
John Lamb
John Lamb
i) the Nautilus battle is not anywhere near Cherbourg;
ii) the Nautilus was not sunk;
No one who is not a seaman can realize the blow which falls upon the heart of a commander, upon the sinking of his ship. It is not merely the loss of a battle—it is the overwhelming of his household, as it were, in a great catastrophe. The Alabama had not only been my battle-field, but my home, in which I had lived two long years, and in which I had experienced many vicissitudes of pain and pleasure, sickness and health. My officers and crew formed a great military family, every face of which was familiar to me; and when I looked upon my gory deck, toward the close of the action, and saw so many manly forms stretched upon it, with the glazed eye of death, or agonizing with terrible wounds, I felt as a father feels who has lost his children—his children who had followed him to the uttermost ends of the earth, in sunshine and storm, and been always true to him.
Raphael Semmes Memoirs of Service Afloat. (1869) p763
...and why I believe the sunken ship circled by the Nautilus prior to battle is the grave of the CSS Alabama, written about by Semmes here.
Great rejoicing was had in Yankeedom, when it was known that the Alabama had been beaten. Shouts of triumph rent the air, and bonfires lighted every hill.
Raphael Semmes Memoirs of Service Afloat. (1869) p765
But what became of the Nautilus? Did it resist the embrace of the Maelstroem? Is Captain Nemo still alive? Is he continuing his terrifying reprisals under the ocean, or did he stop at his last massacre? Will the waves one day wash up the manuscript containing the entire story of his life? Will I finally discover his name? Will the nationality of the vessel sunk tell us Captain Nemo’s own nationality?
I hope so. I also hope that his powerful vessel overcame the sea’s most terrifying deep and that the Nautilus survived where so many ships have perished!
If this is the case, if Captain Nemo does still inhabit his adopted homeland, may hate die down in that wild heart! May the contemplation of so many marvels extinguish his desire for revenge!
May the lawgiver disappear and the scientist continue his peaceful exploration of the seas! If his destiny is strange, it is also sublime. Do I not understand it myself?
Have I not lived ten months of that extra-natural existence? So, to that question which the book of Ecclesiastes posed 6,000 years ago ‘hast thou walked in search of the depth?’, two men, amongst all men, now have the right to reply. Captain Nemo and I.
Jules Verne Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (1869) p381
The definition of The Ecclesiastian style of storytelling is of the musings of a King as he relates his experiences and draws lessons from them, often self-critical.
The author, who is not named anywhere in the book, does not use his own "voice" until the final verses, where in our case he gives his own thoughts and summarises.
Thankyou for spending the time in questioning me, it is very much appreciated.
Marie-Hélène Huet
Sent: Thursday, 23 October 2025 12:16
John Lamb
Semmes was branded a pirate by Abraham Lincoln, who put a bounty on Semmes’ head, and Semmes was chased around the seas by Admiral Farragut of the US Navy. Nemo, conversely, was branded a pirate by Captain Farragut of the US Navy, who put a bounty on Nemo’s head, and Nemo was chased around the seas by the ship Abraham Lincoln. Both Semmes and Nemo encounter an imaginary island, sail through a patch of white water, encounter fake Havana cigars, mention coral mausoleums, shelter in an extinct volcanic island, and have their final battle off Cherbourg. Semmes had a portrait of the Confederate President, Jefferson Davis, in his cabin while Nemo had a portrait of the Union President, Abraham Lincoln, in his. In other words, if The Great Eastern was the template for the Nautilus, then the CSS Alabama was the latter’s real-life alter-ego.