Do you think Downes has regrets?

[Luigi_2121]

I wanted to bring this issue up because I read the OA biography Heat
of the Moment and heard from certain fans that Geoff Downes regreted
continuing Asia with John Payne. Now I don't if it's completely true.
It might be. I don't know. But if it is, it deeply saddens me to make
that realization.

I don't really expect people to give me a completely truthful answer
based on fact unless they've cited from a written text or they've met
Geoff Downes and asked him face to face. People will have their
opinions, whether they agree or disagree, but it doesn't mean that
opinions do not matter. I always enjoy hearing comments from people
who expresses their gratitude, appreciation, and love towards John
Payne and his work with Asia and GPS.

I appreciate the effort John Payne promoted to Asia and his
partnership with Geoff Downes to keep the band alive for as long as it
did. Sure they didn't really have any hits and they performed at
smaller venues compared to their original hayday, but it was still
awesome. I've seen both line-ups live. John Payne certainly does bring
a more harder edge to Asia with his voice and progressive metal style,
at least that's what I'd label it as.

What do you believe or know by facts. Does Downes regret his period of
Asia with John Payne?

[Marc Catchpole]

He may say so, but I think what he really regrets (maybe what they both
regret) is that it wasn't more commercially successful. I don't mean
'mega-hits' just more sales..

Given their origins (ELP, Yes, King Crimson etc) its not surprising that OA
has a bigger draw. But it's just a shame that thats how the industry
is..They certainly worked hard over the years & tried a number of things to
regain the profile.

As far as the book HOTM goes, you have to remember it was 'edited' after the
OA reunion by the author (Dave Gallant). I have a copy of the original
version.. What happens in history? The victors repaint the events to show
themselves in the best light. It's always been that way from Ancient Egypt
to today. Rock musicians are no different!

My own view, is that if it hadn't been for the John Payne years & the hard
work in keeping the brand 'Asia' alive & at least some fan-base intact, OA
would have faced a harder battle. What those years proved, was that there
was enough interest (ie., us!) to make a reunion even worth thinking about.

I do know Wetton tried to make a re-union happen before & out of loyalty to
JP, Downes didn't jump on board. So there maybe bad blood about 'wasted
years' (not my words).

But, & I've said it before, we win all round. New OA music, new JP music
(AFJP/GPS plus plus) So, overall, no reason to complain!

Marc

[William Kozlik]

I was thinking about this the other day. I had a few pints with Geoff & John

Payne at the Famished Frog in Morristown, NJ a few years ago when they did the Borders Books tour.

I asked Geoff if he still speaks with John Wetton and he said that he just spoke with him last week.

I told him that John Payne was a better singer and he looked at me as if I had 3 heads! I thought it was interesting.

A year later, they broke up.

[Neville Townsend]

Hi to all,
 
This is the first time I have ever responded to anything on here although I always read with interest the posts.
In summary anybody who has followed any of the Asia / GPS scenarios through the years and has met the two main players, Downes / Payne as I have done on several occassions will already know that they are two completely different charachters and have completely different modes of operation and agendas.
 
IMHO and experience, JD has always been as big as his own ego and was never interested in people or fans whereas on the other side JP has always seen music as a personal expression that ever evolves and just loves people and the fans. In essence that is the main reasons why JD used JP as a vehicle by playing the party line right up to the split and then JP carried on with GPS in the professional people manner that you would expect of a true music trooper.
 
Just my thoughts,
 
Regards,
 
Neville.
 

---

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:07:50 +0000
From: wko...@comcast.net
To: jpm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

[Marc Catchpole]

Now, here’s a thing… a line of thought.  I think JP enjoyed the ‘partnership’ with GD, they worked well together – must have done, you don’t stick at something for 15 years, owning a studio together etc .

 

& when GD left, I think JP thought it would be hard to find a person, let alone a keyboard player with whom he would have the same degree of simpatico.  Hence the move to GPS & the recruiting, for that first album of Ryo.

 

& then he comes across Erik, & the two hit it off, big time. & while the original plan may have been just to record AoT & get it out, then move on with GPS, the working/composing relationship between Erik & JP develops to such an extent that they decide to revisit the AFJP concept as a vehicle for working together long term.

 

I don’t know, I merely speculate! Based on what I’ve read/heard.

 

But I tell you, I’d rather have Nerosaur as the synth solo than VKTRS, which has always ‘jarred’ in the set..

 

& as to Mitch, well you know where I stand on Guthrie (as a fellow Brit) but let’s give Mitch a chance in AFJP, he’ll bring his own take & if you’re in any doubt as to his talent, check out his myspace - http://www.myspace.com/mitchperry I’m really excited as to what he can bring to the party

 

That’s it – I’m excited & I want to hear more NOW!!

 

To borrow a phrase ‘keep rocking, people’!

</html

[Jeff Matheus]

>>I told him that John Payne was a better singer and he looked at me as if I had 3 heads! <<
 

It's funny. A few years earlier, during the "Aura" tour, my wife and I shared breakfast with Downs and got the exact OPPOSITE reaction on this same subject. Somehow the subject of the aborted first attempt at an OA reunion came up. We told GD that our favorite Asia albums were those since JP joined, and that we much preferred JP as a singer over Wetton, so we were glad that Downes stuck with JP rather than join the reunion. At that time GD agreed with us that JP was a superior singer and made a comment to the effect that because he and JP get along and work so well together that's why the records sound better now (can't remember the word for word quote, but that was the gist.)
 
However, you are right that a few years later, by the time of "Silent Nation" tour and the Borders gigs, Downes seems to have changed his thinking completely. His blog at the time was full of negative comments about the SN tour, and although I never read the rewritten "revisionist history" version of Dave Gallant's book; I've heard that the only real mentions of the Payne era are a few negative comments from Downes. Supposedly Downes also commented somewhere that he didn't like the "Silent Nation" album at all - strange, as it's the top favorite of many Asia fans!
 
In reading between the lines in some of Downes comments over the years, and seeing the change in his attitude towards the JP years, I've always wondered if perhaps Downes somehow "blamed" JP for the lack of commercial success during those final years of collaboration. For instance Downes spent a lot of time on his blog complaining of poor attendance at some of the SN tour dates, so perhaps this got the wheels turning in his mind that an OA reunion might bring the kind of commercial success he wanted.
 
..Still, as a fan who's cares more about the music than the "business side", and basically as an outsider looking in, I'd STILL have to say to Mr. Downes all these years later that his collaborations with John Payne are the best music that he, or "Asia" as an entity, have ever produced. The lack of commercial success was a failure of the record buying and concert going public, not a failure of the excellent, creative collaboration between Geoff Downes & John Payne.
 
JEFF MATHEUS    
 

[crusader]

Hi all,

I'm going to give my perspective on this issue and I don't claim to
have any insight on the GD-JP working relationship, just my opinion:

First, we have to remember one thing: It was GD who made the approach
to JP to join Asia, not the other way around. If you listen to the
bootlegs recordings of the Aqua tour (I have four, the two official
released by Voiceprint and two others I've bought from different
people, a Paris, France show and a show in Stone Pony, NJ) and if you
have, like I do, a video of one of the shows in Tokyo from that tour,
you'll see that it looks like GD's intention to continue Asia was to
be the *mainman* of the band, which he wasn't with the original line-
up because the others had more "seniority" if you will. So he asked JP
to join the band to re-do it on his own "image" if you will. According
to Dave Gallant's book, even Carl Palmer signed his share of the name
Asia over to JP and gave his blessing to GD's version of Asia to
continue.

Second, if he thought, as suggested here, that JP wasn't that good of
a singer, then why would he continue with that version of Asia after
the Aqua album? Maybe the answer is that he didn't want to give up his
newfound position of mainman in the band and wanted his version to be
succesful as to prove to the others that it was the right decision.
But it didn't happen and probably he became frustrated and in the end
decided to dissolve his partnership with JP.

As to Neville's point that GD has a big ego and didn't care about the
fans as much, I have to disagree. I met GD at the Classic Rock
festival in 2002 and spoke to him before the show and after the show.
He was very interested in the fact that I had travelled from Puerto
Rico (where I'm originally from and was living at the time) to see the
show, and even invited me to a beer after the show. My impression of
him wasn't of a man of a big ego (I have that impression from John
Wetton). That's why I've been so disappointed at GD because of the way
the dissolution of the partnership with JP was handled.

Last, I don't know then why GD should have any regrets. It was *his*
decision to carry on without the others, it was *his* decision to
bring JP to the band. I admire JP because he didn't give up on Asia
after that Aqua tour when he was mistreated by a lot of fans at those
shows. He could have quit, but instead carried on and took the band on
his shoulders and gave us three excellent albums during the grunge
era, when this style of music wasn't even played on radio anymore, and
two more at the beginning of the new millenium. Does GD regret his
decision of carrying on with Asia with JP? If he does, maybe he
shouldn't as he could never had done those albums with the others.
That those albums weren't succesful? Maybe not, but they had the
integrity that the 80's albums, with the exception of maybe the first
record, didn't have. Just my humble opinion on the matter. Best
regards,

Gerardo (Crusader)

On Sep 24, 11:49 am, "Marc Catchpole"
<marc.a.catchp...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Now, here's a thing. a line of thought.  I think JP enjoyed the
> 'partnership' with GD, they worked well together - must have done, you don't

> stick at something for 15 years, owning a studio together etc .
>
> & when GD left, I think JP thought it would be hard to find a person, let
> alone a keyboard player with whom he would have the same degree of
> simpatico.  Hence the move to GPS & the recruiting, for that first album of
> Ryo.
>
> & then he comes across Erik, & the two hit it off, big time. & while the
> original plan may have been just to record AoT & get it out, then move on
> with GPS, the working/composing relationship between Erik & JP develops to
> such an extent that they decide to revisit the AFJP concept as a vehicle for
> working together long term.
>
> I don't know, I merely speculate! Based on what I've read/heard.
>
> But I tell you, I'd rather have Nerosaur as the synth solo than VKTRS, which
> has always 'jarred' in the set..
>
> & as to Mitch, well you know where I stand on Guthrie (as a fellow Brit) but
> let's give Mitch a chance in AFJP, he'll bring his own take & if you're in

> any doubt as to his talent, check out his myspace -http://www.myspace.com/mitchperryI'm really excited as to what he can bring
> to the party
>
> That's it - I'm excited & I want to hear more NOW!!

>
> To borrow a phrase 'keep rocking, people'!
>
> From: jpm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jpm...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Neville Townsend
> Sent: 24 September 2009 14:12
> To: jpm...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?
>
> Hi to all,
>
> This is the first time I have ever responded to anything on here although I
> always read with interest the posts.
> In summary anybody who has followed any of the Asia / GPS scenarios through
> the years and has met the two main players, Downes / Payne as I have done on
> several occassions will already know that they are two completely different
> charachters and have completely different modes of operation and agendas.
>
> IMHO and experience, JD has always been as big as his own ego and was never
> interested in people or fans whereas on the other side JP has always seen
> music as a personal expression that ever evolves and just loves people and
> the fans. In essence that is the main reasons why JD used JP as a vehicle by
> playing the party line right up to the split and then JP carried on with GPS
> in the professional people manner that you would expect of a true music
> trooper.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Regards,
>
> Neville.
>
>   _____  
>

> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:07:50 +0000

> From: wkoz...@comcast.net

> </html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[William Kozlik]

Jeff,

I totally agree with you!

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Matheus" <jeffm...@hotmail.com>
To: jpm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:12:37 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

[Ed Arroyo]

in my humble opinion the best Asia albums came during the JP era simply because the big cast of a commercial record company was not anymore upon Downes.. the creativity flew in better ways...

 

I still feel Phoenix is a very mediocre album... nowhere close to the prior 3 of the OA line up... mean while  Silent Nation -for me- was not so great compared to Aura

---

From: Jeff Matheus <jeffm...@hotmail.com>
To: jpm...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:12:37 AM

Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

[Chris - Drummer]

Jeff & William,   I totally agree too!   However, I think the bottom line is the $$$.   Somebody in management approached Downes and Wetton and showed them exactly how many millions in royalties an Asia reunion (of the original members) would be worth to each of them (CD sales, touring, DVD, Blu-Ray, merchandise, interviews, appearances, etc) and that's what probably began to change Downes' attitude toward the JP collaboration.   Understandably, even if Payne and Downes were close friends and business partners, there was a lot of money standing between the two of them when the offer came to Downes' attentioin.  It's quite understandable (regardless of how much JP added to the pre-union version of the band).     --- On Thu, 9/24/09, William Kozlik <wko...@comcast.net> wrote:

[Ed Arroyo]

I have to agree 100% with Gerardo...

 

Mr. Downes is a very down to Earth musician... on the Denver show after opening for Yes... he was the only one that walk the aisle to meet and greet people on the lobby area... a few of us die hard fans went to grab a picture, most of the venue was filled with Yes fans anyways...

 

I do not think he regrets any actions he has taken... and agree again with Gerardo, maybe he thought Asia with JP would be successful enough to tour in medium size venues... unfortunately Prog Rock has never been commercially succesful. Not these days anyways...

 

---

From: crusader <crusa...@yahoo.com>

To: John Payne Music <jpm...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:33:13 AM

[Claudio Momberg]

Well, we must remember that they're also human beings, they might have been in a good or bad day/moment/mood. Sometimes I even can't stand myself :-)  Let's not judge a personality based on a single sample ;-)

 

Cheers

 

Claudio

[Josh]

This is a really great subject here. Does Downes regret carrying on
with Asia with John Payne? I think the only person who can really
answer that is Downes himself. The thing is, will we as fans fans ever
know and will we ever know what really caused the breakup of the
Downes/Payne partnership? I think another question to ask would be "Do
Steve Howe or Carl Palmer regret being involved with Asia with John
Payne?" Both guys played on AQUA at different times (Which songs did
Palmer play on? I heard it was like 2 songs overall.) and, of course,
different songs. Steve Howe toured with Asia as a "special guest" on
the AQUA tour, coming in after the 5th or 6th song and playing the
rest of the show (and as many of you all know, he played on Aura, the
songs "The Last Time" and the epic, "Free."). Carl Palmer joined in on
the encores (HOTM, OTWT) at a few Italian dates on the Silent Nation
tour in early 2005. After the OA reunion, there was hardly even a
peep, if at all, about Asia continuing through the 90's and the new
millenium. It was as if after John Wetton left in 1991 (yes, Mr.
Wetton, you DID leave Asia!), the band no longer existed (even read
the liner notes to Heat Of The Moment: The Very Best Of Asia and The
Ultimate Collection) and the John Payne era never existed. Various
news sources and entertainment sources (music channels, websites,
etc.) interviewed the band and talked about the band, saying how they
were gone for a long time and then came back together after all these
years. I was very insulted, along with many other Asia fans, and felt
it was a slap in the face of many, many people that followed Asia
through the years after their popularity had waned and continued on in
the 90's and 00's. I know John Wetton in particular seemed to have
some sort of personal vendetta against Payne/Downes continuing Asia
for many years (even though, who gives a crap what he thinks or
says?!), probably even again after the failed 3/4 OA reunion attempt
in 1998-99. It was a shame that John Payne never even got a thank you
for helping to keep Asia alive and kicking and helping them make great
music for 15 years. OK, maybe Geoff wanted to move on and do something
else and help to get Asia where they used to be (playing larger
audiences, etc.), or maybe he was tired of Asia not having any
success, commercial-wise or critic-wise, couldn't he have at least
waited until ARCHITECT OF TIME was finished? It didn't make sense to
me at the time, although, unfortunately, I kind of expected it before
too long. I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later. Do I think
Downes has regrets? If he does, it's a damn shame because he and Payne
produced a lot of great, exciting, satisfying music and proved that
they could do so without anyone else telling them what to do. It's sad
that they weren't as popular as the OA line-up and they didn't sell
anywhere near as many records, or even toured a whole lot through the
mid-late 90's, but they still gave us awesome music to listen to and
played a lot of great shows. What I don't understand is, if anyone
here still has the book "The Heat Goes On," at the very end of the
book he's quoted as saying "There's this little bloke on my shoulder,
and any time I think about quitting and doing something else he says,
'Carry on with Asia, you bastard.' Sometimes there was no support from
record companies, there were management hassles and a lack of gigs,
but when the going got tough it only made John and I more detemined to
carry on." I don't get it. I guess that little bloke wasn't on his
shoulder at the time he quit Asia to join... Asia. Now, in relation to
the title of this thread, I have a quote from the inaugural issue of
Classic Rock Presents... PROG, which I couldn't tell what to make of
it: "I'm not ashamed of the albums I made without the others (the
OA)," he insists. "The only bone of contention is whether they should
have been called something other than Asia. I hope that's all
forgotten about now" I still don't know what to make of it. I see
those albums as being as good as anything, maybe even better, than the
older Asia stuff. But, whatever, to each, his own, I guess.

It's rather strange when you think of it, but there are, instead of 2,
there are 3 versions of Asia: OA, AFJP, and Icon. Some might agree,
some might not, but when you listen to the Icon music, it's same thing
as Asia in all but name, albeit without Steve Howe and Carl Palmer. I
don't see the point of it all. I'm sorry if I seem kind of bitter, but
it's hard not to be when you've been used to John Payne being the
frontman for Asia for so long. I guess all's not so bad, there are 3
projects/bands to choose from, but at the end of the day, I go with
with AFJP. Just my 2 cents worth, of course by now it would be 2 bucks
worth. LOL

Josh Creasey
Chambersburg, PA

[Mauro SIMOES]

Mister Josh 


Sorry, but  ...



Let's go ... be  outline !


First ...


Asia with John Wetton = Mainstream !




Asia with John Payne = Cult !






Second ...


Geoffrey Downes =  The Really Boss about Asia and  this is for one simple purpose ...


When, Geffen Records ... kick out Asia Label, who was to carrie on the band ??






At last ...




Here in Brazil, Argentina, Chile or Japan and  others ... you can ask about John Wetton, but John Payne ... 




Most the people's answer ... who is ??






I really relish John Payne's voice and the musician ....




However, the market and when i say market ...   means the   worldwide    ... don't work in this manner !






> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:08:34 -0700
> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?
> From: jcrea...@yahoo.com
> To: jpm...@googlegroups.com

[elizabeth rolfe]

Hello Josh,
 
You make some interesting points in both your emails.  So good to hear someone with something positive to say.  Worthy of printing off for my folder.  I think it's probably better we don't know what went on behind closed doors!  We can only quess, & at the end of the day we have to respect the privacy of all concerned.
I'm just pleased that JP rose from the ashes & got on with things, a lesser being would have given up.  Window to the Soul must have been written with much passion, I think it's a very special album (sorry I still think of things in vinyl, showing my age again)!
 
Anyway I'm glad you made your points, this Google Group seems to have gone very quiet since I asked everyone to stop criticising.  I suppose people are still licking their wounds.
 
Kind regards.
 
Liz (Salisbury UK)

 
> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:08:34 -0700

> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?
> From: jcrea...@yahoo.com
> To: jpm...@googlegroups.com

[Marc Catchpole]

At the point he -GD- made the decision to carry on with Asia no one else was interested (sure Howe featured on the first album & tour, & Palmer did some guesting). So it made sense to use the name at the time - it gave them better profile. Their hope was - over time - to build the band back up & they worked hard to do so. That they didn't is, I'd say more a failure of management & marketing than any weakness in the quality of songwriting/performance.

The combined 'heritage' of the original band members just had a bigger collective draw at a time when 'reunions' were happening all over (Eagles, Police etc).

I think the seeds were sown when Wetton & Downes started working together on ICON 1, Downes contributed to the recording of White in those fabulous studios owned by the guy from Microsoft and Asia's SN tour was pulling in sadly low numbers in 2nd rate (or worse) venues.

What with Payne being based in LA & GD largely in Uk(Wales) it was probably a natural event when they were able to put a package together to reunite the OA members ( right time for all of them) & they were all in a mood to 'give it one last go' & forgive & forget all the bad stuff that went down before. Well, that happens in life, doesn't it? People grow up, move on.

I think most of us here would say that it was handled that well for JP. Understatement! But isn't it time we all moved on - we've got GPS, & we've got john's collaboration with Schellen, Norlander & now Perry to enjoy (whatever the bands called!)

Smile, breathe, move on!

Marc

Sent from my iPhone

[Marc Catchpole]

Oops - typo: I meant: I think most of us here would say that it WAS NOT handled that well for JP.

But you realised that!

M

[Mike Webb]

It's always seemed to me that the lack of commercial success for
Downes/Payne Asia was less about any of the people or organizations
involved, and more about the timing. When Asia first hit the scene in
the early '80s, melodic/progressive/AOR stuff was popular. In the early
'90s when Aqua came out, it very much was not, and that hasn't changed
since. Had OA first formed 10 years later, even with all of Geffen's
marketing muscle, I suspect the public would have issued a collective yawn.

The fact that OA is able to draw bigger crowds now that they've gotten
back together doesn't exactly signal a resurgence in popularity for that
kind of music; it's probably just the sheer novelty of having a group
back on tour that people remembered loving when they were young. Even
with the Asia name, Downes/Payne couldn't get up there and say "yes,
we're the original group, now all you '80s kids come out and see us!"
With Payne having a very, very different voice and style of singing from
Wetton, there was no hope of making themselves a clone of the original band.

I think most of us on this list agree that that's a good thing,
artistically. Although I find Wetton's attitude reprehensible, I
appreciate both singers in different ways. But it wasn't a good recipe
for renewing the momentum of early Asia's commercial success.

On the other hand you have bands like Journey -- even though they no
longer have Steve Perry, they have continued to tour with several
long-time members and a steady succession of singers who mostly sound a
lot like Steve Perry. Or on the other hand, Nightwish -- even though the
current singer sounds nothing like the original, she came onboard when
the band was at the height of popularity, and so their success has
continued unabated despite nastiness from some fans. Asia's a different
story. Downes tried to resurrect it with a very different singer long
after the band's popularity had faded. This has always been tremendously
exciting for us hardcore fans, but mass popularity was always an extreme
long shot.

But so what? I don't mourn it. I don't think there were any missed
opportunities. Downes and Payne did what they could at a non-ideal point
in history. Melodic/progressive/AOR is a niche genre these days, and I
don't care that it's not the world's favorite style of music, because
there are enough of us who do like it to keep it going. Just trying to
be realistic, you know?


- Mike

--
=-= Mike Webb =-=
Oakland, CA

mr...@cornell.edu
nightVzn (IM)
http://nightvzn.livejournal.com/

[Marc Catchpole]

Excellent analysis - but we'd expect no less from a Cornell man! ;-)

Prog does seem to be having something of a comeback - look at the number of digital/web channels devoted to it, & the success of acts like Porcupine Tree.

We could now have a debate about whether OA or indeed AFJP are truly 'prog' or more AOR..

Best to all

Marc

[francisco neira]

Hello,
 
Well, I would like to add my two cents:
 
In the ASIA history there have been two mayor line ups represented by Downes / Wetton and by Downes / Payne, and both ones did a great job considering the time and the circusmtances they had respectively.
 
If what John said about the break up with Geoff is true, well...shame on Downes.
 
Still, I love Phoenix.
 
And the idea of having two ASIA bands is in some way interesting.  Though I think John doesn't have the need to use the ASIA name because he proved with GPS that he is a great musician and a great band leader...but ok, let's grant him the right to own too the ASIA brand.
 
So, there are two ASIA bands with two differents approaches....cool !!!! and I remark COOOOOL!!!!!!!
 
I am eager to listen Architects of Time (though as a devoted catholic I don't support the idea of liking this work with Dan Brown, a very lousy writer if you aske me)  and also I am eager to listen the new GPS album.
 
Then, I think, respecting all the points of view showed on all this forwards, that we have to live with THIS GREAT GIFT OF HAVING TWO GREAT BANDS !!!!! and that what we can add to this discussion it has tol only remain as an cordial exchange of opinions,  free of pressing the needle to red.
 
Love you guys.. and a lot of blessings 4 u and u'r beloved ones !!
 
Francisco                       PS: What I really don't understand is why AFJP having a lot of
                                          great, from AQUA, ARIA, ARENA, AURA and Silent  Nation
                                          doesn't use them in a 100% basis instead of playing the first
                                          ASIA line up material....it doesn't have sense to me.
                                        

 
> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:14:02 -0700
> From: mr...@cornell.edu

---

Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you.

[crusader]

If someone could clarify this, but I don't think JP is linking his
work with Dan Brown, Francisco. I think he is linking his work with an
author that *clarifies* the myths and truths behind Dan Brown's
novels, which is different, I think.

Gerardo (Crusader)

> > > On 10 Oct 2009, at 15:59, elizabeth rolfe <lizro...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Hello Josh,
>
> > > You make some interesting points in both your emails. So good to hear someone with something positive to say. Worthy of printing off for my folder. I think it's probably better we don't know what went on behind closed doors! We can only quess, & at the end of the day we have to respect the privacy of all concerned.
> > > I'm just pleased that JP rose from the ashes & got on with things, a lesser being would have given up. Window to the Soul must have been written with much passion, I think it's a very special album (sorry I still think of things in vinyl, showing my age again)!
>
> > > Anyway I'm glad you made your points, this Google Group seems to have gone very quiet since I asked everyone to stop criticising. I suppose people are still licking their wounds.
>
> > > Kind regards.
>
> > > Liz (Salisbury UK)
>
> > >> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:08:34 -0700
> > >> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

> > >> From: jcrease...@yahoo.com

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[crusader]

This is an excellent point you make, Mike.

Here's what people also forget: after ASTRA (1985), an album they
decided not to tour (huge mistake they made if you ask me), the band
disbanded and we didn't hear anything from them until the reformation
with John Wetton and Carl Parlmer (which didn't include Downes
initially) in 1989, and they toured mainly in Europe and not in the
US. So not only did they not toured in support of ASTRA, an album that
charted in the Billboard top 100 (# 67 I think, imagine if they had
actually supported this album on tour), they remained dormant for the
rest of the 80's, thus lowering the profile of the group; and the only
reason Geoff Downes returned to the band in 1990 was because Geffen
decided to back up the release of THEN AND NOW which they toured in
Europe and South America but, again, didn't tour in the US. So they
pretty much shot themselves in the foot by not touring, especially in
the US during that era. Bands that have longevity are the bands that
*tour* regardless of sales. They pretty much shut themselves out of
the US market. Look at classic rock acts like Blue Oyster Cult,
Journey, Styx, Foreigner, Kansas, Molly Hatchet (a band that currently
has *no* original members) etc, they've kept touring despite the lack
of mainstream success and tour basically every year regardless; and it
was against those conditions that GD decided to continue the band
after JW *left* to pursue a solo career.

By those standards, and the fact that the music world had changed,
ASIA released the excellent AQUA album (which included Howe and
Palmer) which sold basically a similar amount of units as THEN AND NOW
in the US and went to number 1 on the Japanese charts, and the US tour
in support of that album was a success if you take into account what I
just previously stated. The ARIA came, and it charted in Germany, but
didn't have the same success as AQUA because of lack of distribution,
thus, they couldn't tour the US. And then history repeats itself with
ARENA, an album that they didn't tour at all. So ASIA would not come
back again to tour the US until 2001 with the release of AURA, by
which time 8 years had passed since last touring the US, so basically
everyone forgot about them in the US market. So to blame JP for the
lack of success is a bit unfair. The fact of the matter is that OA
draws more right now is because they advertise themselves as 'The
Original Members of ASIA', and the prog harcore fans of the members
previous bands (Yes,KC,ELP) go to see them as that is the next best
thing for them since ELP and the JW-era KC doesn't tour, and YES fans
always want to see Steve Howe; but it's not because they actually
enjoy the music of ASIA (many of them despise it but are content to
see the band perform YES, KC, ELP classics).

So the lack of touring through the years, especially in the US market,
combined with the fact that the time for AOR and prog had long passed
made it hard to replicate the success of ASIA that they enjoyed
initially in the early 80's, that's why it made sense to Geoff to
select a singer with a different voice and record albums that had
artistic integrity because they didn't have the big label to dictate
them anymore; that's why blaming JP for the lack of success is way
unfair. Best regards,

Gerardo (Crusader)

> > On 10 Oct 2009, at 15:59, elizabeth rolfe <lizro...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hello Josh,
>
> > You make some interesting points in both your emails.  So good to hear someone with something positive to say.  Worthy of printing off for my folder.  I think it's probably better we don't know what went on behind closed doors!  We can only quess, & at the end of the day we have to respect the privacy of all concerned.
> > I'm just pleased that JP rose from the ashes & got on with things, a lesser being would have given up.  Window to the Soul must have been written with much passion, I think it's a very special album (sorry I still think of things in vinyl, showing my age again)!
>
> > Anyway I'm glad you made your points, this Google Group seems to have gone very quiet since I asked everyone to stop criticising.  I suppose people are still licking their wounds.
>
> > Kind regards.
>
> > Liz (Salisbury UK)
>
> >> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:08:34 -0700
> >> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

> >> From: jcrease...@yahoo.com

[walkerdepen...@gmail.com]

It is with an author named simon cox. Don't know much about him though.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[y...@insight.rr.com]

Gerardo,
All excellent points, in addition to Mike's insightful comments.
I just want to add that Asia was going on tour in early '86 to support ASTRA but Geffen pulled the plug on the tour because of low sales of the new album and the 45 single upon release in Nov. '85 (in relation to ASIA and ALPHA). I was manager for a chain of record stores in central Ohio and also a part-time radio DJ and personally viewed the sales in store (and played the promo copy every single day during my shift) and also played every song on the album on my radio show. Sales were good and radio response was pretty good to some of the songs but without a Top 10 hit single and album, Geffen pulled the money ASIA needed to tour. And the video for the single is considered by some to be the best one they ever did, with ASTRA brought to life by an actress. The loss of Howe certainly hurt the sales and impact of the band in '85, even though Meyer was a very good guitar player- he just doesn't have Howe's versatility.

Doug

[crusader]

You are correct Doug, but here's the thing: They decided to split
instead of regrouping, look for new management, new label, whatever.
"If the label doesn't fund us then we don't tour and best we split",
that attitude reinforces the idea that ASIA was always a corporate
group, something that the band denies. If they were commited to ASIA
they would have looked for othe options so the band could continue.
Instead they disappeared and when their respective projects sunk, like
Carl Palmer in '3' and JW failed solo album with Phil Manzanera and
they saw themselves out of the spotlight, then they said "oh wait a
minute, we could always go back to ASIA". Why didn't they stuck with
ASIA in the first place and carried on ? That's my question. Then a
new singer comes, put the band on his shoulders in the 90's, ELP split
once again, JW's solo career is on the decline and they go: "oh wait a
minute, we could go back to ASIA" once again like if ASIA was a toy or
something they can go back to when they see themselves out of the
spotlight. This attitude is what has lowered the profile of the band
and has prevented them to have the success they should have had,
especially here in the US. Best regards,

Gerardo (Crusader)

[Mauro SIMOES]

Doug,




Are you fine ?


Well,


I have a question ...





What's really  happened in 1984 ?




During february/1984, Greg Lake did refuse the Geffen's offer, but in may/1994, John Verity, principled was invited to fill up the Wetton/Lake position ...






Howe, did a couple news songs for the new album ...




And Downes, was so sad, cause Lake's relinquish ... he wanted the Lake's stay over/"for the excellent chemistry" - Downes' statement ... 




In a particular friendly chat/2003, Downes did  a predicate that he never has worked with a "true" profissional music as Lake !




And did many compliments for the Lake's artistry ...






Now, i ask to you ..




If Lake had stay on in Asia's line up/1984 ...




The Asia's Astra or other name for the third album ... could be a sucess case/album ???






Thanks !










Mauro
 

> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:59:21 -0400
> From: y...@insight.rr.com

> To: jpm...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

> CC: crusa...@yahoo.com

[Marc Catchpole]

The one video I saw of Asia ‘back in the day’ was the one with Lake in it. I believe he only stepped in at the last moment after they’d ‘fired’ Wetton (who was having personal problems at the time) I thought he did a good job & he’s a great player & singer.  But there were talks of lack of chemistry, with some in the band. I think Dave Gallant covers it in his book – I must check out my copy!

 

It’s an interesting thought, but then we’d never have come across Mr Payne, would we?!  

> </html

[y...@insight.rr.com]

Hi Mauro. I'm fine, thanks. Some very good questions you pose.
When I interviewed Downes & Payne in '04 and '05 I could have asked Geoff about that period in '84 when Lake left and Wetton returned, but it (Wetton leaving-being asked to leave, really, because of his drinking problem)is a touchy subject and certainly long in the past. From what I read in all the magazines at the time and heard at the radio station, they had to play some of the Asia songs in different keys so Lake could comfortably sing them during the Japanese ALPHA tour in '83. After they regrouped in early '84 they rehearsed but there was a plan by some to bring Wetton back, as he was the chief co-writer of the songs and the voice of the band. They had, as you noted, great respect for Lake's talents, but why he didn't stay, I've heard different stories. The main one is that he was only asked so Asia could fulfill their contract with MTV for the Asia in Asia broadcast, the FM simulcast and so the Japanese tour wouldn't have to be cancelled, of course. Lake, being an excellent bassist/guitarist/singer/songwriter, filled Wetton's shoes perfectly, his name was very recognizable, he had a history with Carl, he knew Steve, and Geoff to a lesser extent. But, his singing range does not match Wetton's, and so if he had stayed with Asia, the older songs would not sound the same in the different keys with Lake singing them.

About Verity, that's very interesting. I don't recall hearing or reading that. If it's in Gallant's books, I've forgotten it. I do know it was considered that Robin George, the talent British singer/musician, could replace Howe in the 80's, around the time of the concerts George did with Wetton, Palmer and keyboardist Don Airey in London around '86, was it? I remember reading the concert review that Kerrang did at the time. Kalodner was behind George in the 80's and probably pushed for them to be the new Asia, but things didn't work out.

The 80's were quite a decade, weren't they?

Doug

> _________________________________________________________________
> Acesse seu Hotmail de onde quer que esteja através do celular. Clique aqui.
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/celular/home.asp?utm_source=MSN_Hotmail&utm_medium=Tagline&utm_campaign=MobileServices200908
> >

[Mauro SIMOES]

Doug,







First ...




For all the people Asia's fans (133) here,




In Rio de Janeiro/Brazil 




I say for all the guys/fans  ...




Many  thanks/really, for yours liking ...




Well, on june/1986, in Marquee Club/London ...




Wetton + George + Airey + Palmer and Special Guest: Manzenera






Did a "cult" bootleg ... Go Clubbing !      I & II/Wetz Dreams




Cover from Beatles, Rolling Stones, some "stuffs" from Manzenera & Wetton album , bla bla bla ...




Did you hear the bootleg ?




Have a opinion about it ?




Second,




Doug  ... your explanation about Greg Lake was so inquisitive, here in Brazil (many friends, never did knows the Lake's details) !




Another question, please, sorry for the inconvenience ...




In your opinion,




What's the difference/lead between Wetton/Lake and Payne - To pertain "the perfect voice" ??




I want to say ... who is the better voice to sing A.O.R. songs and who is "more" suited to sing Progressive Rock ??






Thanks, indeed !








 80's years ...




"The better place and time to listen Asia Live !  and the Fantastic Trevor Rabin's songs !!" 






Mauro 

> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:41:16 -0400

> From: y...@insight.rr.com
> To: jpm...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [JPM] Re: Do you think Downes has regrets?

> CC: maur...@hotmail.com

[Josh]

From what I understand, Greg Lake didn't want to carry on with Asia
because he just wasn't into the music. Kind of sad in a way, but
remember, if he would have carried on with the band, we most likely
wouldn't have this group right now, let alone know who John Payne is.
It's sad, but we have to deal with the fact that the Asia we loved
from a few years back is not the same.

Another thought, and this highly unlikely, I've wondered if there
would any possibility of Downes and Howe doing any of the instrumental
stuff, or maybe even a medley of material from Aqua. Just a thought.
If Wetton can play "Voice Of America," then surely they can play at
least some Aqua material, such "Aqua Part I."

I know Downes has completely moved on, but I wonder if he still
listens to the material with him and John Payne.

[y...@insight.rr.com]

Hi Josh. Great idea for GD and SH to do some instrumental music at Asia shows, or how about a CD together?

When I've interviewed Geoff he's said he doesn't listen to his CDs once they are done, after spending months or years writing, arranging, recording and/or producing each one. Many musicians do the same.

Doug

[sean...@email.com]

Three years on and I still can't quite accept what happened to Asia.

Meeting both John and Geoff at the Pittsburgh Borders show, they seemed

so tight, both musically and personally, that I may be one of the few here

who honestly didn't expect the original lineup to return.

But it happened and there went one of the great bands - I haven't had

the pleasure of seeing Payne's Asia yet and have no interest in the original

lineup, so I'm waiting for the AOT album like we all are...

I don't know what to make of Geoff and certainly don't think he could regret

the years with Payne. But who knows what he's thinking, if even he does.