Responding to outrageous claims and accusations
18 views
Skip to first unread message
Brad Baker
Dec 9, 2009, 4:19:58 PM12/9/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
Here in the Community WG, we deal with the community on a day to day basis. We've had our fair share of people making outlandish claims, often in replies to blog posts, or in forum posts. I was reflecting on a few things.. and wanted to share something.
First a little story.
A while ago I started to use a Google Android (HTC Magic) phone. It was awesome, and I became a regular on THE place to discuss Android modding and development: http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=493
.. anyway to cut a long story short, due to somewhat embarrassing circumstances my HTC Magic no longer functions.
Instead I now use an iPhone, not the same or as flexible as the Android based one, but meeting my needs. Do you know, today was the first day since then I visited XDA-devs, just to grab that link I shared above.
Does this mean I hate Android? No. It just means now that I am using a new system, I don't follow the development of the other nearly as closely as I used to, and I certainly do not participate in the "community" as I used to.
.. back to the subject at hand.
Despite the people I am talking about often stating they are "leaving Joomla", "quitting", "lost faith in the project" etc etc, we see them still hanging around. Why? Obviously they have not found an alternative that meets their needs (or they just like to argue). Perhaps their statements are designed just to solicit a reaction. So, how do we respond to them when they inject negativity and to be honest Paranoia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia ) into much of what they say.
For one, sound facts are helpful, at least for innocent bystanders, but at times even responding to these crazy posts/comments implies to these people that we're happy to argue, fight and continue their circular arguments. I'm sure I have been guilty of this myself at times too.
Some material to help in spotting these people is: http://www.oreillynet.com/conferences/blog/2006/07/oscon_how_open_source_projects.html
The hard part is trying to maintain an open environment where people are comfortable with sharing their views without fearing being attacked by others, these people this article talks about. Apart from ignoring them, which sadly, doesn't always work, does anyone have any better suggestions they find work?
Allowing the pointless trash, flamebait etc to be spewed out by people such as spoken of in the link above only devalues our community and makes it a far less appealing place for newcomers. We're actually BUILDING community when we protect our forum and blog post comments for some of the stuff we see. Inside some for the trash may be some good points, but as I was taught, "If you can't say something nicely, don't say anything".
I think that more than just the forum moderators are involved in this process as well.
I'm looking forward to your suggestions and input.
Pierre Gazzola
Dec 9, 2009, 4:47:02 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
> .. back to the subject at hand.
>
> Despite the people I am talking about often stating they are "leaving
> Joomla", "quitting", "lost faith in the project" etc etc, we see them still
> hanging around. Why? Obviously they have not found an alternative that meets
> their needs (or they just like to argue). Perhaps their statements are
> designed just to solicit a reaction. So, how do we respond to them when they
>
The best way is to answer with positive response not just a 1 liner
that would confuse the original post
We have seen an increase in the pass few months,I am not sure if it
has to do with Amy and her
blog on ming? However see a few post that started from there web site.
I hope there intention is to push forward the community with new views
(there views?)
To have more transparency .There will always be negative post we just
need to look over them
One solution maybe a new topic menu Direction of Joomla that way
regular users do not get confuse
in the in fighting amongst joomla groups.
> The hard part is trying to maintain an open environment where people are
> comfortable with sharing their views without fearing being attacked by
> others, these people this article talks about. Apart from ignoring them,
> which sadly, doesn't always work, does anyone have any better suggestions
> they find work?
is
censorshipwe have moderator that could remind a user that attacking
others is not welcome.
>
> Allowing the pointless trash, flamebait etc to be spewed out by people such
> as spoken of in the link above only devalues our community and makes it a
> far less appealing place for newcomers. We're actually BUILDING community
> when we protect our forum and blog post comments for some of the stuff we
> see. Inside some for the trash may be some good points, but as I was taught,
> "If you can't say something nicely, don't say anything".
I think we both see what coming next from a few people,so addressing
this now
is a great idea,there not many solutions however I can see except new
sections in the forum
and move any post to those sections
> I think that more than just the forum moderators are involved in this
> process as well.
bullying also,would a new
form of moderator solved this maybe however they cannot be name
moderator we
would have to be more intellectual and find a new name like arbitrator
>
> I'm looking forward to your suggestions and input.
>
> -----
> Brad Baker
> The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org
Brad Baker
Dec 9, 2009, 5:07:47 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
So create a new 'Confrontation Corner" section on the forum and let
anyone who enjoys these kinds of discussions fight it out there?
If so, I can see it having some benefit, but people will still want to
engage with the rest of the forum threads, and I am certain the
bickering would spill over, and perhaps even increase in the other
parts of the forum.
anyone who enjoys these kinds of discussions fight it out there?
If so, I can see it having some benefit, but people will still want to
engage with the rest of the forum threads, and I am certain the
bickering would spill over, and perhaps even increase in the other
parts of the forum.
Jennifer Marriott
Dec 9, 2009, 5:09:27 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
A day or so ago a friend of mine posted a blog on how to deal with
negativity in a way I hadn't thought of before. I thanked her. It
is amazing how the most simple of answers can be extremely liberating.
http://girlscantwhat.com/a-simple-response-to-negativity/
Jenny
negativity in a way I hadn't thought of before. I thanked her. It
is amazing how the most simple of answers can be extremely liberating.
http://girlscantwhat.com/a-simple-response-to-negativity/
Jenny
Pierre Gazzola
Dec 9, 2009, 5:19:01 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
LOL nice however
We know what be there response if there not a flame war that would
surely create one if it come
from any Administrator or moderator.
Maybe do like I do could you please explain more your point of view
"Show interest and not look snobbish"
On Dec 9, 3:09 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:
We know what be there response if there not a flame war that would
surely create one if it come
from any Administrator or moderator.
Maybe do like I do could you please explain more your point of view
"Show interest and not look snobbish"
On Dec 9, 3:09 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jennifer Marriott
Dec 9, 2009, 5:20:17 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
We could always add a "Flogging Forum" where people can flog the "dead
horse" forum threads a bit more. Any posting outside of that forum on
any issue deemed a "dead horse" issue could result in an immediate ban
for 7 days. That way the rules are clear, the topics at hand are
clear, and it may provide some entertainment.
Just a respectful suggestion.
Jenny
(Note: no horses were actually harmed in the creation of the
discussion post, no horses are actually flogged while dead or alive in
forums of this type)
On Dec 9, 4:09 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:
horse" forum threads a bit more. Any posting outside of that forum on
any issue deemed a "dead horse" issue could result in an immediate ban
for 7 days. That way the rules are clear, the topics at hand are
clear, and it may provide some entertainment.
Just a respectful suggestion.
Jenny
(Note: no horses were actually harmed in the creation of the
discussion post, no horses are actually flogged while dead or alive in
forums of this type)
On Dec 9, 4:09 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Claire Mandville
Dec 9, 2009, 5:25:50 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
O, my post ended up in totally the wrong place if it can be tied with
this one in some way...
On Dec 9, 10:20 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
this one in some way...
On Dec 9, 10:20 pm, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
Claire Mandville
Dec 9, 2009, 5:53:33 PM12/9/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I have long lived with the policy of not building bridges and living
in square rings. (Those long enough on forums will know what i mean by
that).
If the community needs reigning in then so be it, [insert some
positive pro community building quote here] but sometimes it needs to
be done.
if the lounge needs to be turned into the bloodbath arena then that's
the place to do it. feedback and suggestion forums are for that, not
for total flame walling and slagging (or am i reading "Does everyone
think your paranoid!?"
I am currently working on a project where I know that the "leader/
facilitator" and i just don't get on with totally different view but
we have to get along to a certain degree - she is a non joomla blog
platform lover and has hated joomla since it forked with Mambo(tm).
There are many forums i am involved in that i don't follow the
community or toe the line, or use the software but don't go to the
forums or support lines unless i need help. Personally, when i go into
a lesser known forum, i look around for my answer first, and then
post, but i don't always read the internal issues.
Yes there are people i prefer not to deal with on the forums, but i am
at least civil to them when i do encounter them if needs be. I am
suprised that a few more flamers/trolls or just down right uncivil
stirrers are not cautioned/removed earlier, but this is a community
like any other neighbourhood.
If you don't like someone and what they say, try and ignore them, but
if they step out of line - that's what the 'police' are the for. If
you don't like the area where you live, ever considered moving? and
Never show next tomorrows washing, someone will always remember!
(i have received no payments physical or in kind for mentioning joomla
or mambo)
in square rings. (Those long enough on forums will know what i mean by
that).
If the community needs reigning in then so be it, [insert some
positive pro community building quote here] but sometimes it needs to
be done.
if the lounge needs to be turned into the bloodbath arena then that's
the place to do it. feedback and suggestion forums are for that, not
for total flame walling and slagging (or am i reading "Does everyone
think your paranoid!?"
I am currently working on a project where I know that the "leader/
facilitator" and i just don't get on with totally different view but
we have to get along to a certain degree - she is a non joomla blog
platform lover and has hated joomla since it forked with Mambo(tm).
There are many forums i am involved in that i don't follow the
community or toe the line, or use the software but don't go to the
forums or support lines unless i need help. Personally, when i go into
a lesser known forum, i look around for my answer first, and then
post, but i don't always read the internal issues.
Yes there are people i prefer not to deal with on the forums, but i am
at least civil to them when i do encounter them if needs be. I am
suprised that a few more flamers/trolls or just down right uncivil
stirrers are not cautioned/removed earlier, but this is a community
like any other neighbourhood.
If you don't like someone and what they say, try and ignore them, but
if they step out of line - that's what the 'police' are the for. If
you don't like the area where you live, ever considered moving? and
Never show next tomorrows washing, someone will always remember!
(i have received no payments physical or in kind for mentioning joomla
or mambo)
Lorenzo Garcia
Dec 9, 2009, 7:20:52 PM12/9/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
I see it both positive and negative what is happening.
The positive is when we get such discussions, it engages people and we
get a lot of input and feedback on how we can improve the project and
increase the transparency. Hopefully the engagement also can help us
to tie some new people to any of our WG's.
However, there is also an unacceptable destructive side with a lot of
misinformation, both intentional and unintentional and when people
read this misinformation, they believe on it and take it as something
true.
I'm also reacting on that there are a few that are talking about "We
in the community" when they actually only represent themselves and not
talking for everyone. It's true that everyone who in someway engage
themselves in Joomla, either in any WG, local community, helping
someone or spreading the word is a part of our community. But our
community is much bigger and broader than a few members. We have all
our WG's that spend hours after hours for the project, all people in
the different local and global communities, all non- and professional
users who in someway contribute to the project, are a valuable part of
our community. We need also listen on them and take their best into
consideration and not only what a few think because they are the
loudest.
We have also to remember that we have an enormous responsibility for
all the people who in someway have their livelihood on the project and
are depended that its running.
What's worries me is that our volunteers and members want calm and
piece and are into this because they want fun and contribute, that we
risk to loose them because there are a few individuals that can't
behave and can't carry normal conversations.
I have specially problem with one member in the forum that I think
behave unacceptable and outrageous in a manic way and more or less
destroying the discussions with repetitive postings with many times
with non-substantial cheerings and acting like the person is leading
the entirely project and the voice is from the whole community. I
think we shouldn't accept this behaviour and warn this person since we
have got an environment there I think many avoid to participate in the
discussions.
Lorenzo
2009/12/9 Brad Baker <brad....@community.joomla.org>:
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> To post to this group, send email to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
The positive is when we get such discussions, it engages people and we
get a lot of input and feedback on how we can improve the project and
increase the transparency. Hopefully the engagement also can help us
to tie some new people to any of our WG's.
However, there is also an unacceptable destructive side with a lot of
misinformation, both intentional and unintentional and when people
read this misinformation, they believe on it and take it as something
true.
I'm also reacting on that there are a few that are talking about "We
in the community" when they actually only represent themselves and not
talking for everyone. It's true that everyone who in someway engage
themselves in Joomla, either in any WG, local community, helping
someone or spreading the word is a part of our community. But our
community is much bigger and broader than a few members. We have all
our WG's that spend hours after hours for the project, all people in
the different local and global communities, all non- and professional
users who in someway contribute to the project, are a valuable part of
our community. We need also listen on them and take their best into
consideration and not only what a few think because they are the
loudest.
We have also to remember that we have an enormous responsibility for
all the people who in someway have their livelihood on the project and
are depended that its running.
What's worries me is that our volunteers and members want calm and
piece and are into this because they want fun and contribute, that we
risk to loose them because there are a few individuals that can't
behave and can't carry normal conversations.
I have specially problem with one member in the forum that I think
behave unacceptable and outrageous in a manic way and more or less
destroying the discussions with repetitive postings with many times
with non-substantial cheerings and acting like the person is leading
the entirely project and the voice is from the whole community. I
think we shouldn't accept this behaviour and warn this person since we
have got an environment there I think many avoid to participate in the
discussions.
Lorenzo
2009/12/9 Brad Baker <brad....@community.joomla.org>:
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> To post to this group, send email to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
Brad Baker
Dec 9, 2009, 7:51:26 PM12/9/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
Good comments Lorenzo.
Do you know a number of people have stopped contributing to this
project BECAUSE we have not been stronger in enforcing the values we
stand for on some of these people. Why don't they say it publicly?
Because then, I think they feel, they are going to create more tension.
So what do we do? banning people like this only appears to give them
more noteriety. A number of times, and with different people, in
private, I've shared our community values with them, they don't agree
and simply continue on.
Look at a certain European person who is banned from our project.
( Btw only 3 people have every been banned from our project. ) this
person was asked, implored, begged and was only banned totally after
numerous temporary bans and chances. ( wven after that they still
though they were smart enough to attempt to circumvent their ban, and
when confronted with the evidence, resorted to more profanities )They
still continue to feel their behaviour is acceptable, and that we
should allow them to say, swear, curse, and post every manner of
profanaties.
So how do we handle people who are going too far? Who are repeatedly
posting the same arguement, who are, quite frankly, upsetting the good
people of this project? Are we too afraid of enforcing our CoC or
forum rules? Have we lowered the standard of behaviour we tolerste and
as a result hurt our own community?
Do we need more people ( not moderators) pointing out that this kind
of behaviour is unacceptable? How are we going to handle people who's
behaviour goes contrary to the acceptable norms?
On 10/12/2009, at 11:20 AM, Lorenzo Garcia <lorenzo...@extensions.joomla.org
Do you know a number of people have stopped contributing to this
project BECAUSE we have not been stronger in enforcing the values we
stand for on some of these people. Why don't they say it publicly?
Because then, I think they feel, they are going to create more tension.
So what do we do? banning people like this only appears to give them
more noteriety. A number of times, and with different people, in
private, I've shared our community values with them, they don't agree
and simply continue on.
Look at a certain European person who is banned from our project.
( Btw only 3 people have every been banned from our project. ) this
person was asked, implored, begged and was only banned totally after
numerous temporary bans and chances. ( wven after that they still
though they were smart enough to attempt to circumvent their ban, and
when confronted with the evidence, resorted to more profanities )They
still continue to feel their behaviour is acceptable, and that we
should allow them to say, swear, curse, and post every manner of
profanaties.
So how do we handle people who are going too far? Who are repeatedly
posting the same arguement, who are, quite frankly, upsetting the good
people of this project? Are we too afraid of enforcing our CoC or
forum rules? Have we lowered the standard of behaviour we tolerste and
as a result hurt our own community?
Do we need more people ( not moderators) pointing out that this kind
of behaviour is unacceptable? How are we going to handle people who's
behaviour goes contrary to the acceptable norms?
On 10/12/2009, at 11:20 AM, Lorenzo Garcia <lorenzo...@extensions.joomla.org
Jennifer Marriott
Dec 10, 2009, 1:15:04 AM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I would just like to say that I think this is a really good
discussion. I also think that I agree with Claire. There are some -
I wonder why we allow their behavior. It is out of bounds, and beyond
the basic rules we have (at least on the forum) of behaving like a
decent human being. We don't ask for much, we just ask that you act
decently. Don't abuse others, don't attack people or groups (no
personal attacks), no flame wars, no insults, no useless one liner
crap posts, that mean absolutely nothing, other than to be crappy, and
don't hock your wares all over the site. People of this type want to
flog issues to death and go around in circles, or strictly use the
project resources as an advertising venue. Perhaps a forum dedicated
to the flogged to death issues and only those issues is needed, with
as I stated strict rules.. you post outside of the flogging forum on
these issues, then you get warned and a time out. Perhaps we should
give people a temporary redirection and only allow them access to this
new forum.
I think Brad has brought up something I have thought for a long
while. I think that there has been a softening of the enforcement in
the rules on the forum specifically. We have allowed people to behave
in ways that are against our basic tenant of being a decent human
being, in exchange for thinking that we were being generous, or
allowing for an aberration, or just giving people another chance, or
taking the high road, and at times I believe as a group we have turned
a blind eye. My opinion is that this softening in rule enforcement
has created an environment throughout the sites that can be at times
hostile. I think taking the high road actually elevating us, but is
making us lower our standards. I would like to see the road leveled.
I would like to see our forum rules (the ones regarding basic human
decency to others) made into a community wide code of conduct -
applied equally to everyone from leadership on down to the newest user
on the forum including the comments on the blog posts on the J family
of sites. Most people don't need these rules. They are already walk
the walk and talk the talk. This also isn't to say that we can't
reach out to someone that we know is at this moment frustrated and
just needs some extra attention, or specific help with an issue. I
think everyone knows instinctively where to draw the line between
upset/frustration and abuse/manipulation.
In regards to the forum specifically: It is not censorship to remove
posts that attack others. It is not censorship to remove posts that
insult or otherwise denigrate another person. It is not censorship to
remove off topic posts. It is not censorship to remove posts that go
against the basic values of human decency. Censorship isn't even a
part of this discussion. If a person can't bring their thoughts to
the table of discussion and stay within the rules of the forum, my
guess is their thought isn't with discussion, but most likely flaming,
trolling, baiting, insulting, and denigrating others. That shouldn't
be acceptable.
On one hand it is sad we have to have a conversation about people
being decent to each other. On the other hand it is good to have to
give us a check up/reality check. Thanks Brad for opening it up for
all of us.
Jenny
> >> For one, sound facts are helpful, at least for innocent bystanders,
> >> but at
> >> times even responding to these crazy posts/comments implies to
> >> these people
> >> that we're happy to argue, fight and continue their circular
> >> arguments. I'm
> >> sure I have been guilty of this myself at times too.
> >> Some material to help in spotting these people
> >> is:http://www.oreillynet.com/conferences/blog/2006/07/oscon_how_open_sou...
> >> but at
> >> times even responding to these crazy posts/comments implies to
> >> these people
> >> that we're happy to argue, fight and continue their circular
> >> arguments. I'm
> >> sure I have been guilty of this myself at times too.
> >> Some material to help in spotting these people
Jennifer Marriott
Dec 10, 2009, 1:29:19 AM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Correction:
Thinking that taking the high road is actually elevating us is a
mistake, because it is
Jenny
On Dec 10, 12:15 am, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ...
>
> read more »
" I think taking the high road actually elevating us, but is
making us lower our standards."
Should read:
making us lower our standards."
Thinking that taking the high road is actually elevating us is a
mistake, because it is
making us lower our standards.
Sorry for any confusion.
Jenny
On Dec 10, 12:15 am, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> read more »
elin
Dec 10, 2009, 8:16:55 AM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I still think that the poison people video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645#
Is one of the very best things to watch about how to handle difficult
people and the harm they cause. For reading one of the best is Fogel's
book on producing open source http://producingoss.com/ especially
"setting the tone," "avoiding common pitfalls," and "difficult
people."
Also, if you don't mind the language of the title, this is really
excellent.
http://www.channels.com/episodes/show/6435699/OSB09-Donnie-Berkholz-Assholes-Are-Killing-Your-Project
Here's what I think we do that is good.
1. We have a clearly written code of conduct
http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html
which we do try to enforce.
2. We have good and generally well enforced rules for posting on the
forums and excellent moderators.
3. We do not do name and shame.
Here's what I think we do that is not so good.
1. Allow individuals to drive other people from our forums and mailing
lists by harassing them i.e. posting in reply to them on every single
topic, calling them out by name.
2. Don't manage mailing list behavior with the same level of care as
is done in the forums.
3. We don't often enough politely but firmly and in public say "this
behavior is inappropriate, please stop it." As a result things
sometimes spiral out of control.
When I was at the FOSS foundations meeting this summer people were
shocked to hear that in the Joomla! community one community member had
publicly threatened to rape and murder another. In reflecting on that
incident, I wonder if it could have been avoided if we had publicly,
but politely, made a stand against abusive behavior by that person
earlier on rather than always handling it exclusively in a private
manner such as with temporary bans that are not discussed. Perhaps
not, given the outrageousness of the behavior, but I would have liked
to have tried. This was someone with a long (several year) history of
terrible and disgusting behavior, although without the violent part.
Even now, I wonder if we should have said something publicly about the
incident.
All the research on bullying shows that the most powerful way to stop
it is for bystanders/witnesses to say "stop it." Bullies take
silence from bystanders as endorsement. As a consequence their
behavior escalates. That means not deleting a post, not banning
someone, not humiliating them, but saying "stop it, your treatment of
this person or group of people is wrong." I'd like to see this from
leadership but I also would like to see it from other community
members.
We see regular bullying in our forums and on our lists. Not threats of
rape and murder, but, for example, attempts to humiliate or embarrass
people, harassment by making irrelevant posts in response to theirs so
that conversations that the victim is involved in are ended, insulting
and untruthful statements about teams within project working groups,
and posting with the intent to silence people who disagree. It's
incredibly hard to be the one to speak out against these and so easy
to say "oh it's just xxx being an a*** as usual" or "it's the victim's
fault" or "I'm sure xxx is embarrassed by the post." Saying "you are
treating that person badly, stop it" or "you may have legitimate
concerns, but they can't be addressed when raised in a destructive
manner" or "you may disagree with the team but you must treat them
with the same respect you would expect from others, and you must not
lie" is hard, no question. I admit that I am not always as brave as I
should be about doing this, but I also think that we need to create a
culture in which everyone, not just those in public positions, does
this. It is much more effective if the response comes from a broad
range of members of the community. Think about in the schoolyard. It's
one thing if a teacher intervenes, but it is quite another for other
students to say "stop." The latter is much more powerful.
This is long enough, but I wanted to put those thoughts out there.
Elin
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645#
Is one of the very best things to watch about how to handle difficult
people and the harm they cause. For reading one of the best is Fogel's
book on producing open source http://producingoss.com/ especially
"setting the tone," "avoiding common pitfalls," and "difficult
people."
Also, if you don't mind the language of the title, this is really
excellent.
http://www.channels.com/episodes/show/6435699/OSB09-Donnie-Berkholz-Assholes-Are-Killing-Your-Project
Here's what I think we do that is good.
1. We have a clearly written code of conduct
http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html
which we do try to enforce.
2. We have good and generally well enforced rules for posting on the
forums and excellent moderators.
3. We do not do name and shame.
Here's what I think we do that is not so good.
1. Allow individuals to drive other people from our forums and mailing
lists by harassing them i.e. posting in reply to them on every single
topic, calling them out by name.
2. Don't manage mailing list behavior with the same level of care as
is done in the forums.
3. We don't often enough politely but firmly and in public say "this
behavior is inappropriate, please stop it." As a result things
sometimes spiral out of control.
When I was at the FOSS foundations meeting this summer people were
shocked to hear that in the Joomla! community one community member had
publicly threatened to rape and murder another. In reflecting on that
incident, I wonder if it could have been avoided if we had publicly,
but politely, made a stand against abusive behavior by that person
earlier on rather than always handling it exclusively in a private
manner such as with temporary bans that are not discussed. Perhaps
not, given the outrageousness of the behavior, but I would have liked
to have tried. This was someone with a long (several year) history of
terrible and disgusting behavior, although without the violent part.
Even now, I wonder if we should have said something publicly about the
incident.
All the research on bullying shows that the most powerful way to stop
it is for bystanders/witnesses to say "stop it." Bullies take
silence from bystanders as endorsement. As a consequence their
behavior escalates. That means not deleting a post, not banning
someone, not humiliating them, but saying "stop it, your treatment of
this person or group of people is wrong." I'd like to see this from
leadership but I also would like to see it from other community
members.
We see regular bullying in our forums and on our lists. Not threats of
rape and murder, but, for example, attempts to humiliate or embarrass
people, harassment by making irrelevant posts in response to theirs so
that conversations that the victim is involved in are ended, insulting
and untruthful statements about teams within project working groups,
and posting with the intent to silence people who disagree. It's
incredibly hard to be the one to speak out against these and so easy
to say "oh it's just xxx being an a*** as usual" or "it's the victim's
fault" or "I'm sure xxx is embarrassed by the post." Saying "you are
treating that person badly, stop it" or "you may have legitimate
concerns, but they can't be addressed when raised in a destructive
manner" or "you may disagree with the team but you must treat them
with the same respect you would expect from others, and you must not
lie" is hard, no question. I admit that I am not always as brave as I
should be about doing this, but I also think that we need to create a
culture in which everyone, not just those in public positions, does
this. It is much more effective if the response comes from a broad
range of members of the community. Think about in the schoolyard. It's
one thing if a teacher intervenes, but it is quite another for other
students to say "stop." The latter is much more powerful.
This is long enough, but I wanted to put those thoughts out there.
Elin
elin
Dec 10, 2009, 8:18:22 AM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Brad Baker
Dec 10, 2009, 3:06:37 PM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Excellent points.
BTW did you notice how even though this thread being discussed in
public (as many people asked for - more transparency) is leading to
participants being bullied? I can think of 2 documented examples. It
does show we have a culture of allowing poor behaviour, and not enough
people standing up to ones who bully others, whether it's a pattern or
just a few incidents.
If someone could perhaps try to sum up what help we are asking from
the community on this in a blog post, that might go a long way to show
our projects stand on poor behaviour. I will also rejoice when I see
others making it clear to people that they are for eg: 1. Taking a
forum thread off topic 2. Behaving badly in a blog post or 3. Just
being rude and self-centered etc etc
Apart from the reasons a few keep making as to why they feel more
people are not contributing, the one we are discussing here is also
very very valid. Please don't be bullied into stopping your
participation in this thread, or any other for that matter.
On Dec 11, 12:18 am, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still think that the poison people video
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645#
>
> Is one of the very best things to watch about how to handle difficult
> people and the harm they cause. For reading one of the best is Fogel's
> book on producing open sourcehttp://producingoss.com/especially
> "setting the tone," "avoiding common pitfalls," and "difficult
> people."
>
> Also, if you don't mind the language of the title, this is really
> excellent.
>
> http://www.channels.com/episodes/show/6435699/OSB09-Donnie-Berkholz-A...
BTW did you notice how even though this thread being discussed in
public (as many people asked for - more transparency) is leading to
participants being bullied? I can think of 2 documented examples. It
does show we have a culture of allowing poor behaviour, and not enough
people standing up to ones who bully others, whether it's a pattern or
just a few incidents.
If someone could perhaps try to sum up what help we are asking from
the community on this in a blog post, that might go a long way to show
our projects stand on poor behaviour. I will also rejoice when I see
others making it clear to people that they are for eg: 1. Taking a
forum thread off topic 2. Behaving badly in a blog post or 3. Just
being rude and self-centered etc etc
Apart from the reasons a few keep making as to why they feel more
people are not contributing, the one we are discussing here is also
very very valid. Please don't be bullied into stopping your
participation in this thread, or any other for that matter.
On Dec 11, 12:18 am, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still think that the poison people video
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645#
>
> Is one of the very best things to watch about how to handle difficult
> people and the harm they cause. For reading one of the best is Fogel's
> book on producing open sourcehttp://producingoss.com/especially
> "setting the tone," "avoiding common pitfalls," and "difficult
> people."
>
> Also, if you don't mind the language of the title, this is really
> excellent.
>
>
> Here's what I think we do that is good.
> 1. We have a clearly written code of conducthttp://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html
> Here's what I think we do that is good.
Pierre Gazzola
Dec 10, 2009, 3:47:52 PM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
It no only forum now that users get bullied it on tweeter,I find od
that a thread started on the forum have
to be follow with more negative post.Would be nice if in the code of
conduct this could be address also
as so many new users are at a lost and asking what the hell going on
with Joomla.
An interesting point on the code of conduct is a member representing
joomla
should they be more enforce on them if they break the code? No mather
on
what platform if it on the forum or personal blog or tweeter?
On the other side from a forum post about 1 member with many hat this
confuse thing.
Maybe an extra line in the code of conduct that any member of joomla
should mention if they are
talking about the joomla team or there personal views,this would help
normal users understanding
some of the growing pain we are going through .
On irc when a user ask me question from a forum about policy or flame
discussion I ask him/her
Are you asking me as a team member or my personal opinion ? As this is
or could be 2 different opinion.
Back to tweeter some team member seem to use that media to show there
discontent,and as they are not saying this is my
opinion people presume they are talking on behalf of joomla.
Yes a post on code of conduct would be great to remind all of us.
God know how I lost my top during the debate on paid extension a year
or two ago.
Brad point is one reason why I barely participate in the forum. If I
try to help a end user often
will get pm that I did it wrong get your fact right or from moderator
if I start new tread.
So I stayed away until learn more on the overall work of the forum.
(tweeter as not paid me for mentioning there name )
On Dec 10, 1:06 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
that a thread started on the forum have
to be follow with more negative post.Would be nice if in the code of
conduct this could be address also
as so many new users are at a lost and asking what the hell going on
with Joomla.
An interesting point on the code of conduct is a member representing
joomla
should they be more enforce on them if they break the code? No mather
on
what platform if it on the forum or personal blog or tweeter?
On the other side from a forum post about 1 member with many hat this
confuse thing.
Maybe an extra line in the code of conduct that any member of joomla
should mention if they are
talking about the joomla team or there personal views,this would help
normal users understanding
some of the growing pain we are going through .
On irc when a user ask me question from a forum about policy or flame
discussion I ask him/her
Are you asking me as a team member or my personal opinion ? As this is
or could be 2 different opinion.
Back to tweeter some team member seem to use that media to show there
discontent,and as they are not saying this is my
opinion people presume they are talking on behalf of joomla.
Yes a post on code of conduct would be great to remind all of us.
God know how I lost my top during the debate on paid extension a year
or two ago.
Brad point is one reason why I barely participate in the forum. If I
try to help a end user often
will get pm that I did it wrong get your fact right or from moderator
if I start new tread.
So I stayed away until learn more on the overall work of the forum.
(tweeter as not paid me for mentioning there name )
On Dec 10, 1:06 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
Paul Orwig
Dec 10, 2009, 4:04:38 PM12/10/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
Thanks a lot for starting this thread Brad. This is a much deeper and more complex problem than I thought. As you noted, there have been a lot of excellent points made by many here. So thanks to all of the rest of you who have contributed here, I have learned a lot through this thread.
I don't spend as much time on the forums as a lot of others here do (thanks to all of you who do that tough job!), but I moderate a lot of the blog comments on the Community site. Previously I have been taking a pretty passive approach if someone behaved badly in a blog comment but not so bad that I felt the need to delete the comment. Now I see things differently and I agree it is up to all of us to try and hold everyone to a higher standard. I will definitely start being more active to say "we don't allow that here" when I see someone behaving badly especially when it comes to blog comments.
Thanks again,
paul
Brad Baker
Dec 10, 2009, 4:14:26 PM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Excellent post Paul. I think that is a step on the road to lifting the
standard around here.
It's about building community when we make the environment "safe" for
everyone to contribute.
On Dec 11, 8:04 am, Paul Orwig <paul.or...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
standard around here.
It's about building community when we make the environment "safe" for
everyone to contribute.
On Dec 11, 8:04 am, Paul Orwig <paul.or...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
Wendy Robinson
Dec 10, 2009, 5:06:24 PM12/10/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
I think this is great discussion and thanks to everyone who has contributed this far.
I am in agreement that our standards for forum behaviour have dropped and I think it would be smart to sort of regroup and be more vigilent as mods and community members. Abusive behaviour is certainly not something we want people to think we condone.
Now, I don't think we need to start running around like hall monitors but rather apply the rules with common sense where needed and most importantly be supportive of fellow moderators when they make a decision. Teamwork is essential. We don't all have to agree but I do think we need to communicate better as a team and with our community about what our comfort levels are and where we are going to draw the line if we want to keep the peace.
Somewhere in this thread I saw the idea of having "arbitrators" which to me would be people who help to cool a situation down, so to speak, before mod action becomes necessary. I think that would be interesting to try as an 'official' forum role. I know though that there are a number of fine folks who do this already. Many thanks to you!
Looking forward to reading more thoughts on this matter, and I hope to chime in again later :)
I am in agreement that our standards for forum behaviour have dropped and I think it would be smart to sort of regroup and be more vigilent as mods and community members. Abusive behaviour is certainly not something we want people to think we condone.
Now, I don't think we need to start running around like hall monitors but rather apply the rules with common sense where needed and most importantly be supportive of fellow moderators when they make a decision. Teamwork is essential. We don't all have to agree but I do think we need to communicate better as a team and with our community about what our comfort levels are and where we are going to draw the line if we want to keep the peace.
Somewhere in this thread I saw the idea of having "arbitrators" which to me would be people who help to cool a situation down, so to speak, before mod action becomes necessary. I think that would be interesting to try as an 'official' forum role. I know though that there are a number of fine folks who do this already. Many thanks to you!
Looking forward to reading more thoughts on this matter, and I hope to chime in again later :)
-- Wendy Robinson
Brad Baker
Dec 10, 2009, 6:10:08 PM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I like the idea of non-moderators perhaps acting as 'Community
Liaisons' or 'Arbitrators' as you say. People might be inclined to
view their as friends rather than the few who view moderators as the
'authority figures' they need to fight against.
On Dec 11, 9:06 am, "Wendy Robinson"
Liaisons' or 'Arbitrators' as you say. People might be inclined to
view their as friends rather than the few who view moderators as the
'authority figures' they need to fight against.
On Dec 11, 9:06 am, "Wendy Robinson"
<wendy.robin...@opensourcematters.org> wrote:
> I think this is great discussion and thanks to everyone who has contributed this far.
>
> I am in agreement that our standards for forum behaviour have dropped and I think it would be smart to sort of regroup and be more vigilent as mods and community members. Abusive behaviour is certainly not something we want people to think we condone.
>
> Now, I don't think we need to start running around like hall monitors but rather apply the rules with common sense where needed and most importantly be supportive of fellow moderators when they make a decision. Teamwork is essential. We don't all have to agree but I do think we need to communicate better as a team and with our community about what our comfort levels are and where we are going to draw the line if we want to keep the peace.
>
> Somewhere in this thread I saw the idea of having "arbitrators" which to me would be people who help to cool a situation down, so to speak, before mod action becomes necessary. I think that would be interesting to try as an 'official' forum role. I know though that there are a number of fine folks who do this already. Many thanks to you!
>
> Looking forward to reading more thoughts on this matter, and I hope to chime in again later :)
>
> I think this is great discussion and thanks to everyone who has contributed this far.
>
> I am in agreement that our standards for forum behaviour have dropped and I think it would be smart to sort of regroup and be more vigilent as mods and community members. Abusive behaviour is certainly not something we want people to think we condone.
>
> Now, I don't think we need to start running around like hall monitors but rather apply the rules with common sense where needed and most importantly be supportive of fellow moderators when they make a decision. Teamwork is essential. We don't all have to agree but I do think we need to communicate better as a team and with our community about what our comfort levels are and where we are going to draw the line if we want to keep the peace.
>
> Somewhere in this thread I saw the idea of having "arbitrators" which to me would be people who help to cool a situation down, so to speak, before mod action becomes necessary. I think that would be interesting to try as an 'official' forum role. I know though that there are a number of fine folks who do this already. Many thanks to you!
>
> Looking forward to reading more thoughts on this matter, and I hope to chime in again later :)
>
> -- Wendy RobinsonBrad Baker wrote:
>
> Excellent post Paul. I think that is a step on the road to lifting the
>
> standard around here.
>
> It's about building community when we make the environment "safe" for
>
> everyone to contribute.
>
> On Dec 11, 8:04 am, Paul Orwig <paul.or...@community.joomla.org>
>
> Excellent post Paul. I think that is a step on the road to lifting the
>
> standard around here.
>
> It's about building community when we make the environment "safe" for
>
> everyone to contribute.
>
Ole Ottosen
Dec 10, 2009, 6:42:36 PM12/10/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
Good and open discussion on this important topic.
In general I find that all the volunters in the Community WG does a great job in ensuring that the greater part of our visiting community members can feel safe at the forum and wish to visit again.
But admitted, we may have been too soft towards a specific type of visitors during this year.
This is to blame us (CoC, OSM, old CT, and maybe even new leadership), and not the many hardworking people doing a great effort in keeping the forum clean in terms of spammer, linkshares, promoters, etc., and the other standard tasks of having the users respect the basic forum rules they accepted when signing up.
Why we are to blame, is because in the restructuring and opening up process, we, by a more open and outreaching approach to meet some people, may have set a softer standard in threads we participated in than what would be valid when going strict by the basic forum rules.
While some have demonstrated clearly that they are not capable of this temporary extended freedom (and probably should have received a mod note or two already), then the good part is that others showed up and took advantage of the invitation the teams made in listening to the general community concerns and ideas.
These new faces, and some old, show genue interest in contributing to the project that is close to their heart. These are the people we should nurture and ensure finding their way "inside" the project, so they in a friendly and open environment can make contributions and help the project improve.
Those that once again demonstrated lack of genue contribution, lack of understanding the concept of sharing without expecting something in return, and feel more concerned about people/questions/other people/new questions, well, they do not serve the community interests IMO.
Its getting more and more clear that its the wrong people we lowered the wrong barriers for..
We may need to enforce same basic forum rules towards those, as every friendly member in the joomla community would expect us to do.
Those interested in an open discussion and who have great questions and ideas to share wouldnt be in trouble at all over this. Its only those, who cannot see themselves that they are asking question for the sake of the question, spreading unfounded doubt and concern, and in general undermining good community spirit, who would be in trouble when forum rules apply strictly to them too. They wouldnt understand, probably wouldnt agree, but at the end of the day we have to realise we cant please them all.
We better focus at pleasing those with genue interest in the projects future health and growth.
Community matters...
Ole
Pierre Gazzola
Dec 10, 2009, 6:59:13 PM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Hello Brad!
Glad you like the idea.If you need volunteer count me in.
No one can say I am from one side or the other.
On Dec 10, 4:10 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
Glad you like the idea.If you need volunteer count me in.
No one can say I am from one side or the other.
On Dec 10, 4:10 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
Pierre Gazzola
Dec 10, 2009, 7:03:17 PM12/10/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Ole !
As a new member I do not know maybe you could tell me.
Do moderator not have permission to lock a topic until it resolved?
On irc this topic as been followed by many users that cannot post here
so will give there views.
All agree changes are needed.
> > > On Dec 11, 8:04 am, Paul Orwig <paul.or...@community.joomla.org<lt%3Bpaul.or...@community.joomla.org>
> > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > .
As a new member I do not know maybe you could tell me.
Do moderator not have permission to lock a topic until it resolved?
On irc this topic as been followed by many users that cannot post here
so will give there views.
All agree changes are needed.
> > .
>
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> > --
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > .
Gary Brooks
Dec 11, 2009, 1:18:04 AM12/11/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing people.
I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in that position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can isolate problems.
Gary Brooks
I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in that position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can isolate problems.
Gary Brooks
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com.
Brad Baker
Dec 11, 2009, 1:31:54 AM12/11/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
What about complaints that, well, are too crazy to be handled? Rudeness that just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who just like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a dozen threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate them, and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of anti-freespeech people?
Gary Brooks
Dec 11, 2009, 2:00:54 AM12/11/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
We could all brain storm together the rules of the complaint zone. We could build a check list system for a complaint to be listed. To be fair we could simply put a time limit on each post, so if someone had valid complaint it would stay for 30 days, people could comment and everyones voice is heard. If it does not meet the conditions we delete it.
If we let them continue to be able to litter the property they wont stop. Lets move it to one central place and manage it with a system.
Gary Brooks
If we let them continue to be able to litter the property they wont stop. Lets move it to one central place and manage it with a system.
Gary Brooks
Wendy Robinson
Dec 11, 2009, 2:11:20 AM12/11/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
There seem to be a few people in favour of trying out a complaints
area. I'm personally not sold on it but sure would be willing to give
it a go and see how it works as well as what sort of ideas people come up with for managing it.
I agree that the role of an "arbitrator" or "liason" would not be an easy one but I still think it's interesting and if the right people wanted to try on that hat for a bit and see how it goes, maybe it'd be worth a shot? Btw, I must give credit where it's due. It was Pierre's idea, not mine :)
Could these two new ideas be combined and launched together? Complaints department with specialized community members to help keep the peace?
Brad, as far as people who are just there to be obtuse and cause trouble they need to be warned and are, imo, the extreme kinds of situations where the rules do need to be applied heavy handed. Three warnings = temp ban. Get warned again when the temp ban is lifted = permanent ban. Keep their posts visible (edit profanity with mod notes) and throw the "I've been banned!" handle on them. This to me would show people what kind of behaviour warrants banning. If these people choose to cause a scene about it on twitter or other sites or wherever, all that needs to be done is point the audience to their posts and track record. People can then make up their own mind about whether we oppress free speech or not. Once people see the action we had to take and time we had waste to handle an extreme situation like that, I think most would understand where we are coming from. We will never please everyone (that's evident lately) and we need to accept that but at the same time we do have to put our foot down somewhere or I believe we will all go crazy... I'm half way there already :p
Wendy
I agree that the role of an "arbitrator" or "liason" would not be an easy one but I still think it's interesting and if the right people wanted to try on that hat for a bit and see how it goes, maybe it'd be worth a shot? Btw, I must give credit where it's due. It was Pierre's idea, not mine :)
Could these two new ideas be combined and launched together? Complaints department with specialized community members to help keep the peace?
Brad, as far as people who are just there to be obtuse and cause trouble they need to be warned and are, imo, the extreme kinds of situations where the rules do need to be applied heavy handed. Three warnings = temp ban. Get warned again when the temp ban is lifted = permanent ban. Keep their posts visible (edit profanity with mod notes) and throw the "I've been banned!" handle on them. This to me would show people what kind of behaviour warrants banning. If these people choose to cause a scene about it on twitter or other sites or wherever, all that needs to be done is point the audience to their posts and track record. People can then make up their own mind about whether we oppress free speech or not. Once people see the action we had to take and time we had waste to handle an extreme situation like that, I think most would understand where we are coming from. We will never please everyone (that's evident lately) and we need to accept that but at the same time we do have to put our foot down somewhere or I believe we will all go crazy... I'm half way there already :p
Wendy
Brad Baker
Dec 11, 2009, 2:44:14 AM12/11/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
We could say "Complaints Departement" - We can't guarantee we'll
listen or even respond to your complaint, but if it makes you feel
better, post in here. After 30 days will be deleted after 30 days.
On Dec 11, 6:11 pm, Wendy Robinson
> ...
>
> read more »
listen or even respond to your complaint, but if it makes you feel
better, post in here. After 30 days will be deleted after 30 days.
On Dec 11, 6:11 pm, Wendy Robinson
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Gary Brooks <garyjaybro...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > We could all brain storm together the rules of the complaint zone. We
> > could build a check list system for a complaint to be listed. To be fair
> > we could simply put a time limit on each post, so if someone had valid
> > complaint it would stay for 30 days, people could comment and everyones
> > voice is heard. If it does not meet the conditions we delete it.
>
> > If we let them continue to be able to litter the property they wont stop.
> > Lets move it to one central place and manage it with a system.
>
> > Gary Brooks
>
> > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Brad Baker <
> > brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:
>
> >> What about complaints that, well, are too crazy to be handled? Rudeness
> >> that just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to
> >> contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
>
> >> I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us
> >> agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste
> >> time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
>
> >> I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who
> >> just like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a
> >> dozen threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate
> >> them, and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of
> >> anti-freespeech people?
>
>
>
>
> > We could all brain storm together the rules of the complaint zone. We
> > could build a check list system for a complaint to be listed. To be fair
> > we could simply put a time limit on each post, so if someone had valid
> > complaint it would stay for 30 days, people could comment and everyones
> > voice is heard. If it does not meet the conditions we delete it.
>
> > If we let them continue to be able to litter the property they wont stop.
> > Lets move it to one central place and manage it with a system.
>
> > Gary Brooks
>
> > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Brad Baker <
> > brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:
>
> >> What about complaints that, well, are too crazy to be handled? Rudeness
> >> that just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to
> >> contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
>
> >> I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us
> >> agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste
> >> time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
>
> >> I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who
> >> just like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a
> >> dozen threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate
> >> them, and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of
> >> anti-freespeech people?
>
> >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Gary Brooks <garyjaybro...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be
> >>> the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they
> >>> are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to
> >>> our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing
> >>> people.
>
> >>> I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in
> >>> that position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can
> >>> isolate problems.
>
> >>> Gary Brooks
>
>
> >>> What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be
> >>> the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they
> >>> are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to
> >>> our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing
> >>> people.
>
> >>> I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in
> >>> that position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can
> >>> isolate problems.
>
> >>> Gary Brooks
>
>
> read more »
Jennifer Marriott
Dec 11, 2009, 9:54:27 AM12/11/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Is this really about free speech, or is it about effectively enforcing
the rules we already have in place that require nothing more or less
than for people to act decently? I have a feeling the only people
that would cry censorship or anti-free speech, would be the same small
few that are unable to follow the rules.
While the thought of some sort of arbitrator is a good one, I don't
see how it could be used effectively in our environment. We are about
creating software, not about arbitrating disagreements between
people. And really what is there to be in such a disagreement about
that it would require someone to step in to arbitrate?
If you look at this thread - http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=447023
- the community as a whole - stepped up to arbitrate, to help diffuse
the situation, and yet the participant that was problematic continued
to be problematic. Should this forum user have been banned after the
first, second, third, fourth of fifth time they personally attacked
others? My opinion - they should have been warned the first time,
second time post removed and a warning, third time post removed,
thread locked and temp 7 day ban. Then evaluate and monitor their
posts when or if they return.
I don't think it is censorship to require that people follow the rules
that are clearly identified.
Jenny
On Dec 11, 12:31 am, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
> >> <lt%3Bpaul.or...@community.joomla.org<lt%253Bpaul.or...@community.joomla.org>
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
>
> read more »
the rules we already have in place that require nothing more or less
than for people to act decently? I have a feeling the only people
that would cry censorship or anti-free speech, would be the same small
few that are unable to follow the rules.
While the thought of some sort of arbitrator is a good one, I don't
see how it could be used effectively in our environment. We are about
creating software, not about arbitrating disagreements between
people. And really what is there to be in such a disagreement about
that it would require someone to step in to arbitrate?
If you look at this thread - http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=447023
- the community as a whole - stepped up to arbitrate, to help diffuse
the situation, and yet the participant that was problematic continued
to be problematic. Should this forum user have been banned after the
first, second, third, fourth of fifth time they personally attacked
others? My opinion - they should have been warned the first time,
second time post removed and a warning, third time post removed,
thread locked and temp 7 day ban. Then evaluate and monitor their
posts when or if they return.
I don't think it is censorship to require that people follow the rules
that are clearly identified.
Jenny
On Dec 11, 12:31 am, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
> What about complaints that, well, are too crazy to be handled? Rudeness that
> just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to
> contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
>
> I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us
> agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste
> time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
>
> I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who just
> like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a dozen
> threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate them,
> and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of anti-freespeech
> people?
>
> just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to
> contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
>
> I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us
> agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste
> time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
>
> I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who just
> like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a dozen
> threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate them,
> and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of anti-freespeech
> people?
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Gary Brooks <garyjaybro...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be
> > the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they
> > are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to
> > our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing
> > people.
>
> > I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in that
> > position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can
> > isolate problems.
>
> > Gary Brooks
>
>
> > What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be
> > the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they
> > are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to
> > our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing
> > people.
>
> > I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in that
> > position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can
> > isolate problems.
>
> > Gary Brooks
>
>
> >> > > .
>
> >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to
> >> joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >> > > .
>
> >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to
> >> joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> > > .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Joomla!
>
> ...
> >> > > .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Joomla!
>
>
> read more »
Jen Kramer
Dec 11, 2009, 10:37:52 AM12/11/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Jenny. There are limits to free speech. You can't yell "Fire"
in a crowded theater when there is no fire. You can't say certain four
letter words on television or radio. The Joomla forums already ban
discussion of illegal activities.
The key is to be very specific about what you're regulating. You're not
regulating what people say, but how they say it. Make sure the rules are
very easy to find on the website. There is a tiny link in the corner on the
forums site for the rules. I would suggest making the link bigger if it's
decided to enforce these more stringently.
Also, I'd suggest reorganizing the bullets on this page and renaming some
subheads:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=65
Rather than "At all times", perhaps "Community Standards" or "Appropriate
Posting" or something like that, to more specifically describe what's
underneath. You might consider pulling down bullets like "thank those who
help you" from the top to this subhead. You might consider listing this
subhead first, then a subhead about the mechanics of accounts (no disposable
email addresses, etc), then the subhead on signatures.
I would also encourage you to spell out what the procedure is for dealing
with someone who does not follow the rules, and then make sure that
procedure is followed each time.
There are many online communities out there who have codes of conduct. They
do not hesitate to remove posts that do not meet those conduct standards.
There's no reason that Joomla should be any different.
Jen
> >> > > joomla-wg-community+unity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-commu
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-commu
in a crowded theater when there is no fire. You can't say certain four
letter words on television or radio. The Joomla forums already ban
discussion of illegal activities.
The key is to be very specific about what you're regulating. You're not
regulating what people say, but how they say it. Make sure the rules are
very easy to find on the website. There is a tiny link in the corner on the
forums site for the rules. I would suggest making the link bigger if it's
decided to enforce these more stringently.
Also, I'd suggest reorganizing the bullets on this page and renaming some
subheads:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=65
Rather than "At all times", perhaps "Community Standards" or "Appropriate
Posting" or something like that, to more specifically describe what's
underneath. You might consider pulling down bullets like "thank those who
help you" from the top to this subhead. You might consider listing this
subhead first, then a subhead about the mechanics of accounts (no disposable
email addresses, etc), then the subhead on signatures.
I would also encourage you to spell out what the procedure is for dealing
with someone who does not follow the rules, and then make sure that
procedure is followed each time.
There are many online communities out there who have codes of conduct. They
do not hesitate to remove posts that do not meet those conduct standards.
There's no reason that Joomla should be any different.
Jen
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-commu
> >> nity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> > > .
>
> >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> >> > > Google
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to
> >> joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-comm
> >> > > joomla-wg-community+unity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> > > .
>
> >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to
> >> joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-comm
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-commu
> >> nity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> > > .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups "Joomla!
>
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> >> > > .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups "Joomla!
>
> ...
>
> read more »
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
To post to this group, send email to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
To post to this group, send email to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Gary Brooks
Dec 11, 2009, 11:50:58 AM12/11/09
to joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
Complaints department with specialized community members to help keep the peace? <<<< Wendy I like this idea.
@Brad I like this too. I built off your list. Email is not a good place to build a rules list. So maybe someone has an idea for building a working space. These ideas came out of my head and I'm not saying this is what we should use hopefully it can spawn some input.
Basic Rules
1. Complaints Department" - We can't guarantee we'll listen or even respond to your complaint
2. Multiple Complaints about the same topic will follow our ban guidelines.
3. Software complaints must include a study with cross references. Build out wire-frames, UI designs, Plan before you act.
4. Complaints are deleted after 30 days.
5. Re-listing the same complaint will earn you a warning.
6. Complaints should be less then 1 page and can include supporting documents.
7. If your complaint does not meet the condition of the rules list it will be deleted.
How to list a complaint
1. List your Full Name
2. Your problem
3. What do you want to happen ?
4. Why you want it to happen ?
5. If you have a change why does it need to be changed?
6. What is your plan to help improve your complaint. (show your work)
Gary Brooks
@Brad I like this too. I built off your list. Email is not a good place to build a rules list. So maybe someone has an idea for building a working space. These ideas came out of my head and I'm not saying this is what we should use hopefully it can spawn some input.
Basic Rules
1. Complaints Department" - We can't guarantee we'll listen or even respond to your complaint
2. Multiple Complaints about the same topic will follow our ban guidelines.
3. Software complaints must include a study with cross references. Build out wire-frames, UI designs, Plan before you act.
4. Complaints are deleted after 30 days.
5. Re-listing the same complaint will earn you a warning.
6. Complaints should be less then 1 page and can include supporting documents.
7. If your complaint does not meet the condition of the rules list it will be deleted.
How to list a complaint
1. List your Full Name
2. Your problem
3. What do you want to happen ?
4. Why you want it to happen ?
5. If you have a change why does it need to be changed?
6. What is your plan to help improve your complaint. (show your work)
Gary Brooks
Jennifer Marriott
Dec 11, 2009, 12:51:28 PM12/11/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I actually in hindsight and in thinking over Wendy suggestions, that
perhaps not removing the problematic post, but putting a mod note may
be best. I am torn on that issue.
Torn also on the complaint forum idea. People that complain -
complain, and typically just keep complaining. I just don't see how
it would be useful. It may be something that I would have to see in
action to appreciate.
Great ideas on the reorganization of the rules Jen, I think that would
be very helpful.
Jenny
On Dec 11, 10:50 am, Gary Brooks <garyjaybro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Complaints department with specialized community members to help keep the
> peace? <<<< Wendy I like this idea.
>
> @Brad I like this too. I built off your list. Email is not a good
> place to build a rules list. So maybe someone has an idea for building a
> working space. These ideas came out of my head and I'm not saying this is
> what we should use hopefully it can spawn some input.
>
> *
> 1. Complaints Department" - We can't guarantee we'll listen or even respond
> to your complaint
> 2. Multiple Complaints about the same topic will follow our ban
> guidelines.
> 3. Software complaints must include a study with cross references. Build
> out wire-frames, UI designs, Plan before you act.
> 4. Complaints are deleted after 30 days.
> 5. Re-listing the same complaint will earn you a warning.
> 6. Complaints should be less then 1 page and can include supporting
> documents.
> 7. If your complaint does not meet the condition of the rules list it will
> be deleted.
>
> *
> to your complaint
> 2. Multiple Complaints about the same topic will follow our ban
> guidelines.
> 3. Software complaints must include a study with cross references. Build
> out wire-frames, UI designs, Plan before you act.
> 4. Complaints are deleted after 30 days.
> 5. Re-listing the same complaint will earn you a warning.
> 6. Complaints should be less then 1 page and can include supporting
> documents.
> 7. If your complaint does not meet the condition of the rules list it will
> be deleted.
>
> How to list a complaint*
>
> 1. List your Full Name
> 2. Your problem
> 3. What do you want to happen ?
> 4. Why you want it to happen ?
> 5. If you have a change why does it need to be changed?
> 6. What is your plan to help improve your complaint. (show your work)
>
> Gary Brooks
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org
> 1. List your Full Name
> 2. Your problem
> 3. What do you want to happen ?
> 4. Why you want it to happen ?
> 5. If you have a change why does it need to be changed?
> 6. What is your plan to help improve your complaint. (show your work)
>
> Gary Brooks
>
>
> read more »
Pierre Gazzola
Dec 11, 2009, 1:17:30 PM12/11/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
If you create a new topic Complaint and move tread to that area I bet
you will
have users complaining about censorship as you move there post to an
area
that they fell is not in the right place and we try to keep them
quiet.
However if the topic was Suggestions and Complaints it would cover all
side.
On Dec 10, 11:31 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
> >> <lt%3Bpaul.or...@community.joomla.org<lt%253Bpaul.or...@community.joomla.org>
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
>
> read more »
you will
have users complaining about censorship as you move there post to an
area
that they fell is not in the right place and we try to keep them
quiet.
However if the topic was Suggestions and Complaints it would cover all
side.
On Dec 10, 11:31 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
> What about complaints that, well, are too crazy to be handled? Rudeness that
> just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to
> contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
>
> I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us
> agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste
> time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
>
> I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who just
> like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a dozen
> threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate them,
> and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of anti-freespeech
> people?
>
> just doesn't deserve to be shown in public? People who just like to
> contradict anything people say, just for the fun of it.
>
> I know our focus is on software, but as this thread shows, a number of us
> agree that we're allowing a small few (not always the same people) to waste
> time, energy and denigrate the environment in which people contribute.
>
> I can see a forum section *might* work, but what about that person who just
> like to post their one-liners of contradiction and paranoia in half a dozen
> threads, what do we do with them? How do we on the one hand, moderate them,
> and on the other not have people thinking we a bunch of anti-freespeech
> people?
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Gary Brooks <garyjaybro...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be
> > the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they
> > are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to
> > our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing
> > people.
>
> > I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in that
> > position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can
> > isolate problems.
>
> > Gary Brooks
>
>
> > What do you think about making a forum Topic "Complaints" this could be
> > the public speaking area. Complaints can be made to and then when they
> > are handled they are deleted. I don't think we need new people coming to
> > our community seeing a silly mess. We are building software not managing
> > people.
>
> > I like your idea Wendy but I wonder if we really want to put anyone in that
> > position to have to monitor exchanges. If we build this system we can
> > isolate problems.
>
> > Gary Brooks
>
>
> >> > > .
>
> >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to
> >> joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >> > > .
>
> >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> > > --
>
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to
> >> joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> > > .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Joomla!
>
> ...
> >> > > .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Joomla!
>
>
> read more »
Brad Baker
Dec 14, 2009, 7:09:16 PM12/14/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I've been making a special effort to remind people to stay on topic
and show some respect to the people that do post questions in a mature
fashion. I encourage all of you, moderators or not to help out with re-
enforcing that this really is the standard for our community.
Having strong views is no excuse for rudeness or poor behaviour. It's
possible to share ones strong views in a logical fashion as well.
Still, the issue remains with how we handle people who still are
intent on violating these standards of good human behaviour. There
have been some suggestions in this thread though, we'll see how it
goes.
Did you see the Wordpress way of handling complaints/feedback:
http://wordpress.org/extend/kvetch/ at least we are not alone in
having to field crazy notions etc from people... (just refresh the
page).
> > >> > > joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu bsc...@googlegroups.com>
> > >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%252 Bunsub...@googlegroups.com>
>
> read more »
and show some respect to the people that do post questions in a mature
fashion. I encourage all of you, moderators or not to help out with re-
enforcing that this really is the standard for our community.
Having strong views is no excuse for rudeness or poor behaviour. It's
possible to share ones strong views in a logical fashion as well.
Still, the issue remains with how we handle people who still are
intent on violating these standards of good human behaviour. There
have been some suggestions in this thread though, we'll see how it
goes.
Did you see the Wordpress way of handling complaints/feedback:
http://wordpress.org/extend/kvetch/ at least we are not alone in
having to field crazy notions etc from people... (just refresh the
page).
> > >> <joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%252 Bunsub...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > >> > > .
>
> > >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> > >> > > --
>
> > >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>
> ...
> > >> > > .
>
> > >> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > >> > > groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> > >> > > --
>
> > >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>
>
> read more »
Brad Baker
Dec 14, 2009, 7:21:49 PM12/14/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
I forgot to add this interesting quote from someone also interested in "Community", here: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=28260&tag=col1;post-28260 (found link here: http://twitter.com/jonobacon )
"Many people in your meeting will unknowingly take the discussion off on a
tangent, become too fine grained in a portion of the discussion or
otherwise not engage in focusing on the goal. In real-world or phone
discussions you also face the ever-present risk of the lone-talker.
This is that well-intentioned and kind spirited soul who tends to
descend into a rambling diatribe about a given topic, making everyone
else feel uncomfortable interrupting him or her due to their kindly
nature. Old UNIX heads have carved out this role with a special level of
finesse - their stories are often fascinating, but your meeting is
neither the time nor the place for them. You should politely ask if the
topic can remain focused on the goal and suggest another time to
continue the story."
If we call meetings, forum threads, how true is his statement? It reflects the same behaviour we see in our community from a minority. Phew, we're not the cause of the few in community who behave this way, as some people will have us believe. Too many people are too kind to pull others up who constantly have to add their bit to every thread, or who constantly take threads off topic and then complain, or who repeatedly make outrageous and unsubstantiated claims.
I am still very interested to see how a 'Community Liaison' would work out.. we'd need IMHO at least 3 people who are not currently moderator to help us, and the community, in setting the tone of discussions we see on our forum and other sites.
There are problems, we know that.. this thread shows the world we acknowledge that.. it's how we fix it that has makes the most difference though.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
Brad Baker
Dec 14, 2009, 7:52:57 PM12/14/09
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Correct link is: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=28260&tag=col1;post-28260
On Dec 15, 11:21 am, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
> ...
>
> read more »
On Dec 15, 11:21 am, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:
> I forgot to add this interesting quote from someone also interested in
> "Community", here:http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=28260&tag=col1;post-28260(foundlink
> here:http://twitter.com/jonobacon)
>
> "Many people in your meeting will unknowingly take the discussion off on a
> tangent, become too fine grained in a portion of the discussion or otherwise
> not engage in focusing on the goal. In real-world or phone discussions you
> also face the ever-present risk of the *lone-talker*. This is that
> "Community", here:http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=28260&tag=col1;post-28260(foundlink
> here:http://twitter.com/jonobacon)
>
> "Many people in your meeting will unknowingly take the discussion off on a
> tangent, become too fine grained in a portion of the discussion or otherwise
> not engage in focusing on the goal. In real-world or phone discussions you
> well-intentioned and kind spirited soul who tends to descend into a rambling
> diatribe about a given topic, making everyone else feel uncomfortable
> interrupting him or her due to their kindly nature. Old UNIX heads have
> carved out this role with a special level of finesse - their stories are
> often fascinating, but your meeting is neither the time nor the place for
> them. You should politely ask if the topic can remain focused on the goal
> and suggest another time to continue the story."
>
> If we call meetings, forum threads, how true is his statement? It reflects
> the same behaviour we see in our community from a minority. *Phew, we're not
> diatribe about a given topic, making everyone else feel uncomfortable
> interrupting him or her due to their kindly nature. Old UNIX heads have
> carved out this role with a special level of finesse - their stories are
> often fascinating, but your meeting is neither the time nor the place for
> them. You should politely ask if the topic can remain focused on the goal
> and suggest another time to continue the story."
>
> If we call meetings, forum threads, how true is his statement? It reflects
> the cause of the few in community who behave this way, as some people will
> have us believe.* Too many people are too kind to pull others up who
> constantly have to add their bit to every thread, or who constantly take
> threads off topic and then complain, or who repeatedly make outrageous and
> unsubstantiated claims.
>
> I am still very interested to see how a 'Community Liaison' would work out..
> we'd need IMHO at least 3 people who are not currently moderator to help us,
> and the community, in setting the tone of discussions we see on our forum
> and other sites.
>
> There are problems, we know that.. this thread shows the world we
> acknowledge that.. it's how we fix it that has makes the most difference
> though.
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Brad Baker <
>
>
>
> brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:
> > I've been making a special effort to remind people to stay on topic
> > and show some respect to the people that do post questions in a mature
> > fashion. I encourage all of you, moderators or not to help out with re-
> > enforcing that this really is the standard for our community.
>
> > Having strong views is no excuse for rudeness or poor behaviour. It's
> > possible to share ones strong views in a logical fashion as well.
> > Still, the issue remains with how we handle people who still are
> > intent on violating these standards of good human behaviour. There
> > have been some suggestions in this thread though, we'll see how it
> > goes.
>
> > Did you see the Wordpress way of handling complaints/feedback:
> >http://wordpress.org/extend/kvetch/at least we are not alone in
> threads off topic and then complain, or who repeatedly make outrageous and
> unsubstantiated claims.
>
> I am still very interested to see how a 'Community Liaison' would work out..
> we'd need IMHO at least 3 people who are not currently moderator to help us,
> and the community, in setting the tone of discussions we see on our forum
> and other sites.
>
> There are problems, we know that.. this thread shows the world we
> acknowledge that.. it's how we fix it that has makes the most difference
> though.
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Brad Baker <
>
>
>
> brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:
> > I've been making a special effort to remind people to stay on topic
> > and show some respect to the people that do post questions in a mature
> > fashion. I encourage all of you, moderators or not to help out with re-
> > enforcing that this really is the standard for our community.
>
> > Having strong views is no excuse for rudeness or poor behaviour. It's
> > possible to share ones strong views in a logical fashion as well.
> > Still, the issue remains with how we handle people who still are
> > intent on violating these standards of good human behaviour. There
> > have been some suggestions in this thread though, we'll see how it
> > goes.
>
> > Did you see the Wordpress way of handling complaints/feedback:
>
> read more »
Brad Baker
Jan 2, 2010, 4:53:56 PM1/2/10
to Joomla! Community Working Group Leadership
Jen Kramer,
I was re-reading this post of yours, and I really like it. I was
wondering, would you be interested in helping to re-write these rules,
and perhaps include these suggestions you've made?
A shared Google Doc would be a great place to do this. At this time
the forum rules do not include that CoC listed on the docs.joomla.org
site, and vice versa, but thinking about things, I think they both
should be 'merged' in some ways.
I don't think we enforce the rules of the forum too much, in fact we
fail to many times, and that is why people assume that we as a
community accept the kinds of behaviour we see at times. It's not
about "policing" a few bad apples, it's more about creating a safe and
friendly environment where people are wanting to contribute.
One the broad topic of this thread now then:
Maybe we need to be even more open and honest about the individuals
who we have had to remove for repeated bad behavior? Maybe we should
publish their names, along with evidence of their bad behavior? Maybe
people would feel safer contributing if they knew we do have standards
and will protect them from the few individuals who just like to
complain, sabotage and create trouble at any opportunity. It's the
same few people though, if only history never repeated ;)
> If you look at this thread -http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=447023
> ...
>
> read more »
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages