Joomla sites redesign

[Brad Baker]

I think it's time to get working on a complete redesign of our websites. Not only the templates, but perhaps also the layout/content of some of them. I have some ideas, as I'm not one to mention the problem unless I have a proposal for a solution. It's no small task though, and much feedback will need to be gathered from internal teams before we being.

First, I just wanted to gather some feedback from the rest of you as to if this is a good path to start down. So.. feed me/us.

-----

Brad Baker

Twitter @xyzulu
The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

[Jen Kramer]

I think this is an excellent suggestion. Some of the content is very difficult to find on the site. I'd recommend working on some site goals, target audiences, and site and organization messages. I'd also recommend evaluate what content is on the site, what's missing, and what's out of date. This could help drive a good site map for the site, and building could go from there.

 

thanks,

Jen

 

.........................

Jen Kramer

4Web, Inc.

Creators of Highly Customized Joomla Websites

www.4webinc.com

802-257-2657

j...@4webinc.com

Twitter: jen4web

Read our blog! www.joomla4web.com

---

From: Brad Baker [mailto:brad....@community.joomla.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:33 PM
To: joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Joomla sites redesign

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[Ken Crowder]

I'd like to see everything simplified. As it has been stated, there is a lot of information on the various sites which makes it hard to find what you want. I have to assume that we will still have different web sites for different purposes (ie. www, community, developer, help, etc). ... just my 2.5 cents. I'm looking forward to everyone else's suggestions.

--
Kenneth Crowder (aka ChiefGoFor)
Joomla Leadership Team

[Wendy Robinson]

I think a redesign is a great idea and most needed.  I think what we need to do different this time though is really evaluate content and information and outline a structure on a mock up and then a  bare bones template and then design up from there. 

I have some ideas too and happy to share.

Wendy

[Jennifer Marriott]

I agree that finding the content you are looking for is extremely
difficult. I think it would be good to evaluate each site and define
what the purpose of the site is, and what the channel of use is (how
people are going to navigate through it to find the information that
the purpose defines), and design a structural mock up that illustrates
how the sites operationally work together, and how the informational
structure on each site may be linked, then drill down from there to
creating and defining the individual structure of each site. Having
that foundation really well thought out will increase the usability of
the sites ten-fold in my opinion.

As a kind of related question, but just general in nature - How do
people feel about mega type menus and the mini-site maps located at
the bottom of big sites? I seem to be seeing more and more of those
in use.

Jenny

On Dec 5, 8:19 pm, Wendy Robinson

<wendy.robin...@opensourcematters.org> wrote:
> I think a redesign is a great idea and most needed.  I think what we need to
> do different this time though is really evaluate content and information and
> outline a structure on a mock up and then a  bare bones template and then
> design up from there.
>
> I have some ideas too and happy to share.
>
> Wendy
>

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Ken Crowder <ken.crow...@joomla.org> wrote:
> > I'd like to see everything simplified. As it has been stated, there is a
> > lot of information on the various sites which makes it hard to find what you
> > want. I have to assume that we will still have different web sites for
> > different purposes (ie. www, community, developer, help, etc). ... just my
> > 2.5 cents. I'm looking forward to everyone else's suggestions.
>

> > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Jen Kramer <focused...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>  I think this is an excellent suggestion. Some of the content is very
> >> difficult to find on the site. I'd recommend working on some site goals,
> >> target audiences, and site and organization messages. I'd also recommend
> >> evaluate what content is on the site, what's missing, and what's out of
> >> date. This could help drive a good site map for the site, and building could
> >> go from there.
>
> >> thanks,
> >> Jen
>
> >>  .........................
> >> Jen Kramer
> >> 4Web, Inc.
> >> Creators of Highly Customized Joomla Websites
> >>www.4webinc.com
> >> 802-257-2657
> >> j...@4webinc.com
> >> Twitter: jen4web
> >> Read our blog!www.joomla4web.com
>

> >>  ------------------------------
> >> *From:* Brad Baker [mailto:brad.ba...@community.joomla.org]
> >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:33 PM
> >> *To:* joomla-wg...@googlegroups.com
> >> *Subject:* Joomla sites redesign

>
> >> I think it's time to get working on a complete redesign of our websites.
> >> Not only the templates, but perhaps also the layout/content of some of them.
> >> I have some ideas, as I'm not one to mention the problem unless I have a
> >> proposal for a solution. It's no small task though, and much feedback will
> >> need to be gathered from internal teams before we being.
>
> >> First, I just wanted to gather some feedback from the rest of you as to if
> >> this is a good path to start down. So.. feed me/us.
>
> >> -----
> >> Brad Baker

> >> Twitter @xyzulu <http://twitter.com/xyzulu>

> >> The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org
>
> >> --
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> >> .

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>
> > --
> > Kenneth Crowder (aka ChiefGoFor)
> > Joomla Leadership Team
>
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[Jen Kramer]

Mini site maps at the bottom of the page are accessible and relatively
straightforward if implemented well. Mega menus, if they include dropdowns,
can be inaccessible and confusing.

However, I think it's really premature to be discussing navigation
structures without completely understanding the problem we're trying to
solve.

Jen

> >> joomla-wg-community+y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> >> .
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>
> > --
> > Kenneth Crowder (aka ChiefGoFor)
> > Joomla Leadership Team
>
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[Jennifer Marriott]

As I said Jen it was just a general question. Just wanted to know
what people thought about them.

Jenny

[Brad Baker]

As long as we all agree at this point that a redesign would be good,
I'll take some time to put together the proposal I want to present.

On Dec 7, 4:19 am, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Paul Orwig]

Brad,

 

I think this project is a great idea. Ron Severdia and Airton and I have had some email discussions over the last couple of months about possible changes on the Community site (navigation and home page content restructuring). Even better would be a unified effort to make things simpler and more consistent across all the J! websites. 

 

Thanks for bringing up this idea!

 

paul

 

--

[Brad Baker]

Yip.. the last updates were a good step in unification, but I think we can even more unify the layout and design of things.

Ok, I'm excited to see some of you are excited. :)

[Mike Hamanaka]

I like the idea of strong navigational elements at the bottom,
including the mini-site maps idea, if implemented site-wide it could
work as a phase 1 band-aid.

I have found that in Academic sites or in very large organizational
sites, a good start to a redesign/reworking is an A to Z list of all
pages that are important. (including some sort of mechanism to manage
and maintain this list)

Would be important to have some goals, for instance, would we be
attempting to keep URL's consistent? etc.

[Brad Baker]

Yes, we need an overall approach.

I'll try to note down my plan and share it sometime on this list.
Having a busy week though ;)

[Pierre Gazzola]

It would be great also to had features for jed.

1 feature to report exploit once reported that it could be
automatically put on hold that extension

2.Also jed should be split into free and paid extension,this may help
searching jed easier maybe

3 A better search engine for jed. so many result are not even relevant
to the search.

4 easy navigation to our by laws and the group minutes

5. A link directly to email with option Want to contribute to the
community
email would have option what category they fill the form and voila
done.
at this time you are send to a page with many links that confuse
users.

Pierre Gazzola

[Brad Baker]

Pierre, the first 3 are JED software related, and I know that Lee and others are already discussing that.

As for 4 and 5 they can well be incorporated into the idea I have. Thanks for sharing. 

The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

[elin]

Jenny Ron and I actually started a discussion a while ago about mega
neavigation and I have about half of a module for the bottom done.

The most important thing imo would be improved cross site search
available on every page. That's website 101. Again, there's a module
ready to go if someone decides to publish it.

Elin

On Dec 8, 4:05 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:
> Pierre, the first 3 are JED software related, and I know that Lee and others
> are already discussing that.
>
> As for 4 and 5 they can well be incorporated into the idea I have. Thanks
> for sharing.
>

> > > > > > >> joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <joomla-wg-communit
> > > > > > >> joomla-wg-community+y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2By%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

>
> > > > > > >> .
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>
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>
> > > > > > >> .
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>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Kenneth Crowder (aka ChiefGoFor)
> > > > > > > Joomla Leadership Team
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> ...
>
> read more »

[Ole Ottosen]

Hej folkens,

 

Set fra et internationalt perspektiv, så er der også et stigende behov for en bedre præsentation og organisering af indhold relateret til oversættelse, internationalisering og lokalisering.

Vi fra TCT vil gerne være en del af denne generelle proces for at forbedre brugeroplevelsen på j.org

 

Ole

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com.

[Brad Baker]

Ole.. English please :P

The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

[Lorenzo Garcia]

I can help with the translation .. Danish and Swedish is very similar :p

I have the feeling that Ole sent it to wrong mail ;-)

2009/12/10 Brad Baker <brad....@community.joomla.org>:

[Ole Ottosen]

Thanks Brad, was fishing for exactly that reply :p

 

Tried to find a way of explaining the importance of us welcoming the whole joomla community when they visit j.org - especially those not understanding the english language.

 

Now they will meet a strange text as above... Think we wouldnt do wrong in thinking in some welcoming pointers for those to some basic info about Joomla! - in their preferred language.

 

For those not comfortable with danish, the above text says:

Hey folks,

 

Seen from an international perspective, then there is a growing demand for a better presentation and organisation of content related to translation, internationalisation and localisation.

We from the Translation Coordination Team (TCT) would like to be a part of this general process of improving the overall user experience at j.org

 

Ole

[Brad Baker]

Right.. I understand that language now :P

Yip, once I get a moment I will put the general proposal I had on this list, and will welcome your input so we can incorporate the need to appeal to more than just English visitors. :) Thanks to you and your team.

[Brad Baker]

Ok.. I have a moment.. so here is my idea, well.. I'm presenting it,
but a number of people have discussed it with me. Special thanks to
Louis.

How about we come up with a simple, but clear Request for Proposal
that we can present to the community. The proposal would include new
templates for our Joomla 1.5 sites, the forum (phpbb3) as well as the
documentation wiki. Further to that, the proposals would include
layout and integration design wise of the sites. The proposal would
also include the implementation, obviously working in close
cooperation with the people who currently manage our sites.

I am sure there are plenty of experts with more experience than us who
can come up with some really sound proposals. Lots of people come to
us with ideas and things they would like changed or done better, so
this would allow them to present their proposals to the community and
for one to be chosen.

It would require a few peoples input initially to formulate the RFP,
but afterwards, more specifically to evaluate the proposals. The
winning proposal would be a great resume, and our RFP would also
include the way we're "reward" the winner, perhaps with a 'Credits'
page on joomla.org or something similar.

I'm presenting this here in a deliberately vague manner to allow for
input. At the end of the day, there would be a few stipulations, such
as having to incorporate the Joomla logo etc, but I think we'd receive
some really solid and worthy of implementation proposals. Do you?

I think this would be a wonderful way to open this part of our project
up to the community and receive their input this way. We'll never keep
everyone happy, but hey, I'm not even happy with the way I implement
things sometimes either ;)



On Dec 11, 9:36 am, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

> Right.. I understand that language now :P
>
> Yip, once I get a moment I will put the general proposal I had on this list,
> and will welcome your input so we can incorporate the need to appeal to more
> than just English visitors. :) Thanks to you and your team.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Ole Ottosen <ole.otto...@joomla.org> wrote:
> > Thanks Brad, was fishing for exactly that reply :p
>
> > Tried to find a way of explaining the importance of us welcoming the whole
> > joomla community when they visit j.org - especially those not
> > understanding the english language.
>
> > Now they will meet a strange text as above... Think we wouldnt do wrong in
> > thinking in some welcoming pointers for those to some basic info about
> > Joomla! - in their preferred language.
>
> > For those not comfortable with danish, the above text says:
> >  Hey folks,
>
> > Seen from an international perspective, then there is a growing demand
> > for a better presentation and organisation of content related to
> > translation, internationalisation and localisation.
> > We from the Translation Coordination Team (TCT) would like to be a part of
> > this general process of improving the overall user experience at j.org
>
> > Ole
>
> > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Brad Baker <
> > brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:
>
> >> Ole.. English please :P
>

> >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Ole Ottosen <ole.otto...@joomla.org>wrote:
>
> >>> Hej folkens,
>
> >>> Set fra et internationalt perspektiv, så er der også et stigende behov
> >>> for en bedre præsentation og organisering af indhold relateret til
> >>> oversættelse, internationalisering og lokalisering.
> >>> Vi fra TCT vil gerne være en del af denne generelle proces for at
> >>> forbedre brugeroplevelsen på j.org
>
> >>> Ole
>

> >>>> Websiteswww.4webinc.com<http://websiteswww.4webinc.com/>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Michael Hamanaka]

I'm not sure I like the idea of requesting proposals as of yet. 

...mainly because we have not quite identified the entire scope of the work.  And obviously these points are not all for Brad to answer.

Just some questions that come to mind...

This leads to questions like,  RFP for a paid gig?  just for credit?

Who is paying for this work?  If Joomla is paying for this work, who needs to approve that?

If it is paid, it seems that we lose community involvement or do we?

If a person submits a proposal and they win, will they lead the work?

Who will ultimately be responsible for the development, the actual production and the end product?

Is this really just a call for leadership and/or a facilitator?

Will this template work be hosted in such a place that Joomla community can actively participate in that development?

Does the current content stay? or is there going to be some content re-working?

The forums and the wiki's included?  anything not included?

What is the timeline for deliverables?

My suggestion is that the proposals be made public from the start,  in this case it would be nice to know who is interested in submitting a proposal sooner than when they are submitted, this way the process can be very open.

Would also seem logical that if several people or groups are wanting to donate efforts that all efforts are accepted and the exclusivity game does not play in.

If proposals will be made for a paid gig, should those proposals be managed the same as the volunteer proposals?


Mike Hamanaka
Website Production
Vertualize.com

> ...
>
> read more »

--

[Brad Baker]

Replies below.

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Michael Hamanaka <hama...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not sure I like the idea of requesting proposals as of yet. 

...mainly because we have not quite identified the entire scope of the work.  And obviously these points are not all for Brad to answer.

Just some questions that come to mind...

This leads to questions like,  RFP for a paid gig?  just for credit?

Who is paying for this work?  If Joomla is paying for this work, who needs to approve that?

If it is paid, it seems that we lose community involvement or do we?

I'd like to think it will not involve money. 

If a person submits a proposal and they win, will they lead the work?

 

Yes 

Who will ultimately be responsible for the development, the actual production and the end product?

The Community Working Group

 

Is this really just a call for leadership and/or a facilitator?

This is a discussion on a redesign of our sites. 

Will this template work be hosted in such a place that Joomla community can actively participate in that development?

I don't anticipate that would be the case. It would be up to the person/organisation submitted the proposal.

 

Does the current content stay? or is there going to be some content re-working?

This RFP would not include the content, that being said, I am sure some content would need to be re-arranged.

 

The forums and the wiki's included?  anything not included?

Dunno, I can't think of anything else.

 

What is the timeline for deliverables?

What do you suggest?

 

My suggestion is that the proposals be made public from the start,  in this case it would be nice to know who is interested in submitting a proposal sooner than when they are submitted, this way the process can be very open.

I'm not sure that we should force people to put their hand up and say they are thinking of submitting a proposal. Also, I am not sure all proposals should be published, again however, happy to hear other peoples input.  

Would also seem logical that if several people or groups are wanting to donate efforts that all efforts are accepted and the exclusivity game does not play in.

To me that would be up to the people submitting the proposal. How they want to present themselves is up to them. 

If proposals will be made for a paid gig, should those proposals be managed the same as the volunteer proposals?

I'm not sure I follow this question, maybe you can explain.

[Michael Hamanaka]

If it is paid, it seems that we lose community involvement or do we?

I'd like to think it will not involve money.

 Stronger words are necessary here... since that will change the whole dynamics of the management of it.

If a person submits a proposal and they win, will they lead the work?

 Yes

IMO it would be very important to include leadership and communication methods in this proposal.

What is the timeline for deliverables?

What do you suggest?

Well...  I can only make suggestions....

between now and 12/31  community input can be gathered.

That a preliminary scope be developed (public input gathered)  starting 12/31 ending 1/5, (this is where the interested parties can help sculpt the preliminary scope)

By 1/15, all interested parties should have submitted proposals, based on their own criteria.

By 1/20, Community WG should have some change requests to some but not all proposals.   (where I say Community WG, maybe this could be a committee)

By 1/30, the remaining parties should send a revised proposal.

By 2/6, the Community WG should approve a single proposal (party) to lead the complete re-design work and report back to Community WG.

work can begin promptly on a test server

(the above is just some suggestions for pre-project)

The actual work is lengthy and intensive and will require serious workload and/or serious experience for efficient work.

The development and design work should take a couple months for high quality work to evolve.  I think it would be an amazing opportunity for several elements to created and contributed by several parties world-wide.

A migration schedule is necessary, I can recommend that 1 major site area or about 10% of the Joomla.org site be moved each month.  The entire move will take about a year?  ( I don't know the speed at which the current site was changed to the blue theme, but it was gradual)  Although I have seen migrations that are much faster.

If proposals will be made for a paid gig, should those proposals be managed the same as the volunteer proposals?

I'm not sure I follow this question, maybe you can explain.

This one is tricky, of course there are many individuals who are very willing to lead this project and would do a fine job.  I guess, I can't really make an argument on this one.  Volunteers make good contributions and so do paid people.  A payed person you might expect to have definite reporting and communication, although that is not to say a volunteer would not be able to also do this.

Ultimately, from thinking about this, who ever is leading this re-design would be a fool not to allow public assistance, or they would have to be some non-communicative and reclusive hermit of a designer.  Probably not the spirit of open source and community.   That is why I am forseeing this person as a group facilitator or catalyst type.  Usually catalyst type people flourish with some form of compensation.  Although the right person could probably be found as a volunteer also.  So again, no opinion here. yet  :)

I believe that this could keep a sane person busy for a year, as Joomla.org is actually many websites.

Mike Hamanaka
Website Production
Vertualize.com

[Brad Baker]

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Let's just get
other feedback before we discuss the finer details.

BTW no migrating is needed. Switching over templates can take probably
at worst talk 30 min or less, with people who know what they are
doing, even less probably.

> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Replies below.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pierre Gazzola]

Hello!

I agree let see what we would like to have then the rest will fall in
place.

What would be nice brad is a welcome module on the front page with all
language
that joomla support with link to that language of the web site.A good
example is
http://joomlabear.com/Joomulus/

A search on the front page would be great too.

Rss feeds we provide should be on that front page.(could rss feed
button also be activate on the front page "from url"?}

http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla.html

search on the left side.

http://community.joomla.org/ again rss feed on the tittle link and
search.

http://developer.joomla.org/

should be uniform and look like the main site.

http://shop.joomla.org/ a search module may be good

top menu if possible link to security.

Were all VEL and updates would be announce

this is my wish list for Christmas :)

Sitemap at the bottom of the page for user to find were they want to
navigate.



On Dec 13, 8:19 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »

[Paul Orwig]

Brad,

Thanks for putting together this idea. I like the idea of opening this project up to the community.

Do you see that the scope of the RFP would also include re-defining the information architecture (IA) for any or all of the J! websites, or are you primarily looking for new templates without possibly also overhauling the IA?

My 2c: I think that a major redesign is a good opportunity to also put a lot of thought around improving the IA, but the best new template creator(s) might not also be the best thinkers on a better IA. I think we might get a better outcome if any IA changes are pretty well agreed to before the serious work on new  template designs starts. We could issue a separate RFP for IA changes in advance of the template RFP, or we could organize a group (with community input?) to issue recommendations for IA changes and then let the template RFP responders work off of those IA recommendations. 

Also, what do you see happening when the sites are upgraded to 1.6? Do you think this redesign should happen before/at the same time/after releasing 1.6?

My 2c: I think it might make sense to do the redesign (& IA changes if applicable) after 1.6 is released. That might open up more possibilities due to new features, and could reduce some re-work compared to if the redesign was based on 1.5.

Thanks,

paul

[Brad Baker]

I'd like to see us start on this process now. If we get it done before 1.6, well and good. I don't think it needs to hinge on that.

I hear you regarding the IA stuff. I had hoped the that RFP I suggested would include a good amount of that as well, but you think that is pushing it?

We could however, start a separate feedback method on the IA anytime before this RFP. I like the idea of a Google Form that feeds into a spreadsheet, but I suspect we'll need to see diagrams etc too. Gathering info on the IA before this RFP is my preferred method, but if we go that route, we'll need to be well organised to accept input.

Any other suggestions? We want to keep the process simple, and easy to understand.

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[Paul Orwig]

Brad,

 

Again my 2c, I do think including IA stuff into a single redesign RFP may be pushing it. I think for an IA review to be done right it will take a lot of input from subject matter experts from the different J! sites, and I don't think most RFP responders will have the time or resources to do that. I also think it will help us get better new template design proposals if the designers are given some information about the new IA.

 

Here's an idea: Why not put a call out to the community for IA experts to help with this comprehensive IA review as a predecessor for the upcoming redesign RFP. Ask them to summarize their IA experience and their proposal for how they think the J! IA review should be conducted. See what responses come back, and don't necessarily only pick one response for those to invite to get involved.

 

Here's another idea: Form an "IA group" from existing WG members who have related experience and time to help. Let them coordinate with subject matter experts from the different J! sites to try and work out a new IA recommendation. Have WG leadership teams review and revise that recommendation.

 

Thanks,

 

paul

[Brad Baker]

Great ideas Paul.
I'd guess it would be best with a smaller group to come up with some
IA requirements (if we can call them that).

How about we try to form a small group that can address these needs,
and basically be responsible for drafting that part of the RFP? I can
see that working.

On Dec 16, 7:10 am, Paul Orwig <paul.or...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

> Brad,
>
> Again my 2c, I do think including IA stuff into a single redesign RFP may
> be pushing it. I think for an IA review to be done right it will take a lot
> of input from subject matter experts from the different J! sites, and I
> don't think most RFP responders will have the time or resources to do that.
> I also think it will help us get better new template design proposals if the
> designers are given some information about the new IA.
>
> Here's an idea: Why not put a call out to the community for IA experts to
> help with this comprehensive IA review as a predecessor for the upcoming
> redesign RFP. Ask them to summarize their IA experience and their proposal
> for how they think the J! IA review should be conducted. See what responses
> come back, and don't necessarily only pick one response for those to invite
> to get involved.
>
> Here's another idea: Form an "IA group" from existing WG members who have
> related experience and time to help. Let them coordinate with subject matter
> experts from the different J! sites to try and work out a new
> IA recommendation. Have WG leadership teams review and revise that
> recommendation.
>
> Thanks,
>
> paul
>

> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org

>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > I'd like to see us start on this process now. If we get it done before 1.6,
> > well and good. I don't think it needs to hinge on that.
>
> > I hear you regarding the IA stuff. I had hoped the that RFP I suggested
> > would include a good amount of that as well, but you think that is pushing
> > it?
>
> > We could however, start a separate feedback method on the IA anytime before
> > this RFP. I like the idea of a Google Form that feeds into a spreadsheet,
> > but I suspect we'll need to see diagrams etc too. Gathering info on the IA
> > before this RFP is my preferred method, but if we go that route, we'll need
> > to be well organised to accept input.
>
> > Any other suggestions? We want to keep the process simple, and easy to
> > understand.
>
> >   On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Paul Orwig <

> >> joomla-wg-commu...@googlegroups.com<joomla-wg-community%2Bunsu bsc...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .

> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community?hl=en.
>
> >  -----
> > Brad Baker

> > Twitter @xyzulu <http://twitter.com/xyzulu>

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>
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