1.5 and 1.6: A Joomla Developers Dilema

[Andrew Eddie]

The questions are starting to be asked by users.

How easy will the upgrade be from 1.5 to 1.6? The answer is, for the
"core" as easy as we can make it, but we have no control over third
party developers.

It follows then that many developers (that includes you template
designers as well) no doubt have many questions. One of those will be
"when do I need to start worrying about moving to the 1.6 platform"?
Well, I'm going to help you answer that one.

Start now!

Joomla 1.6 is now feature frozen. That means we (generally) won't be
changing the database schema and won't be changing the API. I say
generally because there are always bugs that come up that may require
us to repair or retrofit some things, but I'm hoping the instances of
these are low. When Joomla 1.6 hits the RC (Release Candidate) we are
saying that it's stable enough to start putting into production.

With only days passing since the Beta release information is obviously
still scarce about the implications for Joomla 1.6 on extension
developers. I recorded a 2 hour talk on many things the developer
will need to be aware of recently and that will be made publicly
available in a few weeks (or you can catch an exclusive preview at
JandBeyond at the end of this month).

In the mean time there are two places you can look for information on
extensions.

The first is here: http://docs.joomla.org/What%27s_new_in_Joomla_1.6#Developers

This is an outline of many of the changes that will affect developers.

The second is in the trunk SVN repo. If you checkout the trunk, have
a look in the follow folder:

/tests/_data/installer_packages

In there you will find example extensions that are in the correct
format to install in 1.6.

So let me say again, now is the time to start preparing for the
release of 1.6. Don't wait till 1.6 goes stable - that will be too
late. Why is this important? Because it's going to be much easier to
fix and correct broken things in the release during the beta phase
than after 1.6 goes stable. Beta and RC's are released every 2 weeks
like clockwork. After stable, this frequency reduces to about
monthly. In addition, attention becomes divided between maintaining
1.6 (and 1.5) and firing up the 1.7 development process. There exists
a golden opportunity over the next (probably) two months when you have
the project's almost undivided attention. Use it to your advantage.

Anyway, I thought it appropriate to mention since some people might be
wondering, or worse, be thinking that the best solution is to put off
thinking about 1.6 until the stable version comes out. That's really
too late. And if there is a carrot to be dangled, those that get
involved now will obviously be in the best position to influence how
problems get fixed and by what priority :) Another way of looking at
it is also that if you start now you can be working with your own
customers or community. After 1.6 goes stable, they'll be jumping on
your back for when the 1.6 version is going to be ready. And if you
want to be really mercenary, those getting 1.6 native extensions to
market first are obviously going to have the best traffic early on ;)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

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[marius]

This is going to add an enourmous amount of workload to all Joomla 3rd
party developers. Lost of changes to the core which means developers
will have to double their amount of branches. Most projects would have
2 branches (one stable, one development), which means they would now
have to maintain 4 separate releases of their product.

It is going to be very hard for us at JFusion to maintain 4 different
releases and leaves us with a dilemma. Focus development onto Joomla
1.6, even though there are no "live site" users and sacrificy Joomla
1.5 development?

Of course like you mentioned it is an opportunity for paid projects,
but free opensource projects might struggle. At least with Joomla 1.5
there was a legacy mode to help ease the transition. Looking at the
change list, events and functions have been renamed with lost of
depreciated functions, meaning lost of work even for our extention
which already required PHP5. Such a transition legacy mode seems to be
missing.

Back to the drawing board :)

Marius

[Ian MacLennan]

Our goal has been not to remove any methods or classes that were not deprecated in 1.5.  If there are cases where this is not true, they should be filed as a bug report. (obviously there will be some necessary exceptions).

Ian

[Oli Griffiths]

Is this correct that 1.5 extensions will not work on 1.5? I was under the impression that all releases would be backwards compatible with the previous release?

Oli

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[Hannes Papenberg]

Since 1.6 has ACL and 1.5 hasn't, 1.6 extensions wont work on 1.5 and
the other way around. There are several other changes that prevent this.

Hannes Papenberg

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[Oli Griffiths]

I get that 1.6 extensions wont work on 1.5, but I thought that 1.5
extensions were supposed to work on 1.6. Backwards compatibility not
forwards.

[Hannes Papenberg]

The translation files have been changed, sections have been removed, ACL
has been added, JForm instead of JParameter everywhere... No, 1.5
extensions wont work on 1.6 without modifications.

Hannes

[Ryan Briscall]

Why are we discussing this? Who said it was necessary to upgrade to 1.6?

You can't just expect that your 1.5 site will magically be able to
upgrade to 1.6 with no problems. Only a newb would expect that.

"I was under the impression that all releases would be backwards
compatible with the previous release?"

You were under the wrong impression.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

-Ryan

[Phil Snell]

Ryan,

Please don't be disrespectful of others on the list.

Phil

[Brad Gies]

Ok... here's a starter question :).

I'm planning to build an extension that will allow users of my Android
Cell Phone application to automatically register/create an account and
also allow them to setup their own private user group for themselves and
their friends. Most of it will be done using a web service type of API
from the custom extension.

I know how to build the controller, models and views, but can anybody
point me to documentation, source code, or API's that I should be using
to build this in the most 1.6 compatible way possible? My extensions'
core functions will be to register, set permissions, and optionally to
setup private groups.

Thanks for any pointers....

Oh.. and CONGRATULATIONS on 1.6. It looks even better than expected..
and I have been downloading and playing with the nightlies for several
months. You guys did a fantastic job.

Thanks,

Brad.

On 19/05/2010 3:50 AM, Andrew Eddie wrote:
> The questions are starting to be asked by users.
>
> How easy will the upgrade be from 1.5 to 1.6? The answer is, for the
> "core" as easy as we can make it, but we have no control over third
> party developers.
>
> It follows then that many developers (that includes you template
> designers as well) no doubt have many questions. One of those will be
> "when do I need to start worrying about moving to the 1.6 platform"?
> Well, I'm going to help you answer that one.
>
> Start now!
>
>
>

--
Sincerely,

Brad Gies
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[Dan Lopez]

You should contact Sudhi at su...@hooduku.com

They are building the Web Services API for 1.7+ release. It is available now from Plexicloud as GPL on Github

Questions let me know

[Andrew Eddie]

On 20 May 2010 01:19, Ryan Briscall <ryanbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why are we discussing this?  Who said it was necessary to upgrade to 1.6?

Hi Ryan.

If you choose not to, that is your right (and just ignore this
thread), but other will want do. Please respect that. Trying to
argue that people should not upgrade is not helpful.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer


>

[Andrew Eddie]

On 19 May 2010 22:46, marius <mari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is going to add an enourmous amount of workload to all Joomla 3rd
> party developers. Lost of changes to the core which means developers
> will have to double their amount of branches. Most projects would have
> 2 branches (one stable, one development), which means they would now
> have to maintain 4 separate releases of their product.

Hi Marius

Depending on the complexity of your extensions, yes and no. Some devs
are going to have to make two trees, some might get away with a
1.5/1.6 compatible version.

The choice you have though is you make the 1.6 version dumbed-down to
still work on 1.5, but not take advantage of any new features in 1.6,
OR you have to include a 1.6 compatibility layer in your 1.5
extension.

I know it's a tough call, but I've been warning devs for over a year
now this was coming :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer




>

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Oli

I think you meant to slip a "1.6" in there. The 1.6 API is backward
compatible (please look at the What's new doc for API that has been
removed in 1.6, and also marked deprecated). If it's not, then as Ian
says raise an issue. This is why I'm telling you to start testing
now. What has changed slightly is the format of the installation XML
manifest. So extensions are nominally backward compatible, but you
need to adjust the package for a 1.5 extension to install in 1.6.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Brad

There are two links I gave you in the start of this topic. Also, have
a good look at the code in the 1.6 extensions themselves. The easiest
ones to follow are Weblinks and Newsfeeds. More docs will become
available as time goes on.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Oli Griffiths]

Any ideas about mootools being 1.2 and extensions using 1.11 at the mo.

Are you including a compatibility layer for mt 1.2 to 1.11?

I have a good one if u don't?

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[Andrew Eddie]

We are looking at putting the 1.1/1.2 compatibility layer into 1.5,
but for 1.6 we are considering going Mootools 1.3 so you'll get the
1.2/1.3 compatibility. I would work on that assumption for now
anyway.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matias Aguirre]

Hello everyone.

I have an idea that I would like to share with you, if that can be
carried out.
I am working on the project jUpgrade which try to migrate data from
one installation of Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6. What makes the component
is to call functions using AJAX which made the whole process of
migration. I started using jQuery but to give more support Joomla im
implementing Mootools.

My idea basically is to create a mini-framework with tools for third-
party developers can create a quick and easy plugin for your
extensions.

Files that are called by AJAX have the following structure:

define ('_JEXEC', 1);
define ('JPATH_BASE', dirname (__FILE__));
define ('DS', DIRECTORY_SEPARATOR);
require_once (JPATH_BASE. DS. "defines.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. "methods.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. "factory.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. "import.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'error'. DS.
'error.php');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'base'. DS.
'object.php');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'database'. DS.
'database.php');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'database'. DS.
"table.php ');
require_once (JPATH_LIBRARIES.DS. 'joomla'. DS. 'database'. DS.
"tablenested.php ');
require (JPATH_ROOT.DS. "configuration.php");

This allows access to the new installation of Joomla 1.6 using its
framework.

You will say if the task can be performed.

Regards

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Matias, would you be able to start a new thread about 1.5 to 1.6
upgrading on the JBS list.

http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad

There will be a team dedicated to this in the JBS.

Thanks.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie

http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[smk]

Eddie,

Thank you for the methodical email. I am a template designer that
focuses mostly on the church. I am note a "real" coder but I've
managed to use Joomla and simplify the "index.php" page to use in many
of my templates. Now when I look at the new default 1.6 templates
they just look so confusing to me. After 3 and a half years of
designing Joomla templates I feel so heavy right now. I'm not sure
where to begin and after reviewing the other templates it has not
gotten me any closer. Could you please point us template designer who
are not code oriented in the correct place? I'm willing to give it my
best try but just need a good starting point, and the default
templates seem to have too much going on for me to work with as a
grid. Thanks, SMK

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi SMK.

The "Atomic" template is intended to be the simpler "trainer" style.
It's not quite finished yet though, but it's the one to watch. I'd
love to tell you more and I know enough CSS to be dangerous, but am
not be any means a designer :)

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matt Thomas]

Hi SMK,

I'm currently in the process of doing a differential analysis of the 1.5 and 1.6 rhuk_milyway templates. The goal is to contribute this information for a document that can help those wanting to convert 1.5 to 1.6 templates. I know I'm not the only one doing this, but I don't think there is a coordinate effort yet. As of this moment, I plan to add this information to http://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Upgrade_Joomla_1.5_Template_to_Joomla_1.6 . If anyone wants to join me, by all means speak up and let's work together.

Best,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[Matt Thomas]

Andrew,

Is there any other documentation, that you know of, that may apply to this?

Thanks,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[Andrew Eddie]

Hi Matt.

No, nothing formal yet. Regarding new classes and styles and thing it
may be worth holding off a bit. I would wager there might be some
changes for the sake of sanity during the beta period. Elin, Angie,
Ron and Andrea (apologies in advance if I've missed others) are the
ones most involved in the frontend markup.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Matt Thomas]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks. Maybe I can help document some of those details. At this point, my thought was more of the basics like what changes would need to be made to templateDetails.xml for a 1.5 template to work in 1.6. I see that params are now handled differently as well as some other nuances like defined('_JEXEC') or die. Maybe I need to start fresh and slowly rebuild one in 1.6.

Best,

Matt

Matt Thomas
Founder - betweenbrain
web • print • identity • creative
www.betweenbrain.com

betweenbrain at The Joomla! Resources Directory™ - http://betweenbra.in/resources

Joomla! 1.6 Beta1 Download http://betweenbra.in/x/6

Joomla! 1.6 Issue Tracker http://betweenbra.in/x/5

[smk]

Thanks Andrew and Matt. I've looked over the "Atomic" template and it
is simplier, although, it still uses some php in the "index.php" that
I'm not familiar with. I must just be used to real basic stuff. In
either case, I've noticed something about all the templates in this
1.6 beta release that I'm trying to understand, and that is why have
they all done away with "right" and "left" positions? I found those
postions to be very logical and user friendly; just trying to
understand why they've been washed away. Could I still use those
positions ("left" and "right") in my templates, or should I change
them to a defined user like "position-7" which is what the
"rhuk_milkyway" theme seems to be using for the sides instead of
"left", or does it matter? I want to make sure that I can continue
designing a template for my customers using postioins that they are
familiar with and makes sense but yet is more accurate for the 1.6.

On May 19, 4:31 pm, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi SMK.
>
> The "Atomic" template is intended to be the simpler "trainer" style.
> It's not quite finished yet though, but it's the one to watch.  I'd
> love to tell you more and I know enough CSS to be dangerous, but am
> not be any means a designer :)
>
> Regards,

> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>

> >> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-the art of becoming a Joomla developer

>
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[Mark Dexter]

There was a big discussion on list a while back about template positions. It was decided that generic position names were preferable, since people put stuff all over the page. (Or at least that was my short short understanding of it.) Mark

[Ian MacLennan]

Mark is right regarding the position naming.  Basically the notion was that if you call a position top, some designers may choose to put that position on the left.  Some templates don't have left and right positions - they stack everything on one side.

So, that was the idea behind that.

Now, is there any particular PHP in atomic you don't get?  Post it up here and we'll help dissect it.

Regards

[marius]

Could you imagine phpBB 3.2 being release with a note that people
can't automatically migrate their users/posts and none of their mods
will work? Or microsoft saying that all old .NET 3.5 framework
applications won't work on .NET 4.0 and people should dumb down their
3.5 applications? Of course not and I am similarly surprised that
there is no migration support or legacy mode in Joomla 1.6.

Its not just a matter of "dumbing down" code as lots of things are
renamed. Meaning any joomla app that uses events won't work anymore.
Why not have a legacy mode for these things. It would be very simple
to have a plugin that calls the old events inside the new event name
to ensure backward compatibility.

Similarly it would be easy to detect a joomla 1.5 install XML file and
install using the Joomla 1.5 xml type install file. I can give lots
more examples from your changelog document where it would be easy to
ensure backward compatibility. Of course people would have to make
their code PHP 5 compatible and remove dependency on some of the
libaries removed in Joomla 1.6.

Having no automatic migration tool for users and content is also a
disaster. Uptake of Joomla 1.6 will be low if no migration is provided
and there is no compatibility for components. Functions like ACL,
flexible categories, more easily upgrades are already available for
Joomla 1.5 and users would not have any incentive to upgrade to Joomla
1.6. This is not unfixable:

1) create a legacy plugin that will allow developers to make small
modifications to their Joomla 1.5 product to make them work on both
Joomla 1.5 and 1.6. This alone will save thousands of hours of work
for people involved in Joomla.

2) during the Joomla 1.6 install process there needs to be an option
to automatically import, users, categories and content to allow people
to migrate their site, even if some of their components do not work
anymore.

I'll be happy to help out with both of these. Thanks, Marius

[smk]

Thanks for that. Instead of trying to dissect code I don't understand
from another developers template - I've tried to incorporate some of
my existing code in order to set up a 3 column collapsible layout.
However, for some reason the "position-2" does not work. I've tried
several different modules and they do not appear and I've even tried
using a different position name. I'm guessing some of my php is out-
of-date, but not being a php coder I've always used what I know
works. Does anyone have any suggestions as to why the code below
doesn't work in a 1.6 platform? It's always worked like a charm in
1.5.


<?php if ($this->countModules ('position-1 and position-2')) { ?>

<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="mainLeft">
<tr>
<td><jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include
type="component" /></td>
</tr>
</table>
<div id="leftColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-1" style="fx" /></div>
<div id="rightColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-2" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else if($this->countModules('position-1')) { ?>
<div id="mainLeft2">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END LEFT CONTENT -->
<div id="leftColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-1" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else if($this->countModules('position-2')) { ?>
<div id="mainLeft2">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END LEFT CONTENT -->
<div id="rightColumn"><jdoc:include type="modules"
name="position-2" style="fx" /></div>

<?php }else{ ?>
<div id="mainFull">
<jdoc:include type="message" /><jdoc:include type="component" />
</div><!--END MAIN FULL-->
<?php } ?>

> > > >> Andrew Eddiehttp://www.theartofjoomla.com-theart of becoming a Joomla

> > developer
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[Brad Gies]

Thanks Andrew, ... yeah... I'm fairly comfortable with looking through
source code, and I've already read the links you mentioned. I'm just
hoping I don't miss some obvious API type calls for registering users,
logging in and permissions, just because I don't know they are there :).
I didn't really expect much in the way of documentation this early, and
I tend to look at source code while I'm reading it anyway, just to be
sure :). I'll check out how the core components are doing and assume
it's "best practices" until I know better :).

Dan, Sudhi has already made contact with me, so I'll have a look at it
what he's doing. I'm not sure whether I want to use a framework for the
web services part of this, or just build my own. What I need is fairly
limited, so it'd be fast to build, but on the other hand, if using the
Framework would help advance it, I'm happy to do that also. Will let you
know :). Thanks.

Brad.

On 19/05/2010 3:07 PM, Andrew Eddie wrote:
> Hi Brad
>
> There are two links I gave you in the start of this topic. Also, have
> a good look at the code in the 1.6 extensions themselves. The easiest
> ones to follow are Weblinks and Newsfeeds. More docs will become
> available as time goes on.
>
> Regards,
> Andrew Eddie
> http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer
>

[elin]

smk,

There was a bug in alpha 2 that made count not work when there was
more than one position. If you find this is still happening in the
current code can you post an issue report please?

Thanks

Elin

On May 20, 12:04 am, Brad Gies <rbg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Andrew, ... yeah... I'm fairly comfortable with looking through
> source code, and I've already read the links you mentioned. I'm just
> hoping I don't miss some obvious API type calls for registering users,
> logging in and permissions, just because I don't know they are there :).
> I didn't really expect much in the way of documentation this early, and
> I tend to look at source code while I'm reading it anyway, just to be
> sure :). I'll check out how the core components are doing and assume
> it's "best practices" until I know better :).
>
> Dan, Sudhi has already made contact with me, so I'll have a look at it
> what he's doing. I'm not sure whether I want to use a framework for the
> web services part of this, or just build my own. What I need is fairly
> limited, so it'd be fast to build, but on the other hand, if using the
> Framework would help advance it, I'm happy to do that also. Will let you
> know :). Thanks.
>
> Brad.
>
> On 19/05/2010 3:07 PM, Andrew Eddie wrote:
>
> > Hi Brad
>
> > There are two links I gave you in the start of this topic.  Also, have
> > a good look at the code in the 1.6 extensions themselves.  The easiest
> > ones to follow are Weblinks and Newsfeeds.  More docs will become
> > available as time goes on.
>
> > Regards,
> > Andrew Eddie

> >http://www.theartofjoomla.com- the art of becoming a Joomla developer