Stop the Bootstrap MADNESS NOW - Enough is Enough - Designers RANT - SOLUTION INCLUDED...

[Christian Matthew]

Backend Dev's and Extension builders do NOT WIN this argument.  If you want to be a designer then become one.  Because I will not become a php expert C# expert because that is not an interest in me.  And I am not going to halfass designing php code because I want to "play around with it."  

It is 2014 and Joomla is getting crushed. If it wasn't for the excellent and helpful extensions that are our there I would be GONE.  

So lets start shall we.  

GET BOOTSTRAP OUT.  It is ridiculous.  And now, like never before, it is becoming an issue and problem.  The number #1 assault is on responsive design.  Wooo Saaaaa.  

Where do I begin?  The answer is this.  Backend bootstrap... All day and night... go for it.  Front end...  I don't want freaking see it. 

I hear things like this from BED's.  People don't know HTML / CSS... That's THEIR PROBLEM not mine.  There wasn't a design standard before and because this gives us one we can now make great work!!! yeaaaaaaa and we will sell more extensions.  BULLSHIT.  

I am not going to name names... But some of you have been building extensions that while the backend coding is suffiicent the design towards the front end is missing all it's marbles.  And you know it, and I know it, and everyone else damn well knows it.  

Great!!! companies/devs like Stack Ideas don't have such problems.  Great companies like/ rsforms don't have such problems.  I am not saying they dont' use bootstrap but I am saying they wouldn't be crying if it wasn't there.  

#1 emergency reason why it needs to stop?  RESPONSIVE DESIGN.  

Get over it.  Coding is cool again.  YOU MUST LEARN HTML CSS... If not you are not a web developer.  If you are a freaking dev and building an extension... A GODDAMN DESIGNER should be ON YOUR TEAM... If not you are just joking along at the process.  

Why is responsive design such an issue.  As I hack and hack and override your classes and content... Guess what - MY CSS isn't responsive anymore.  It can be fixed with more and more coding but COME ON. 

Border Radius the new damn lens flare.  

Ok so let me get to the solution... Because this issue has been hammered home enough.  

I use Jetmenu for my navigation bar.  What is it?  It is CSS / HTML / Jquery.  It gives you an INDEX.html a CSS style sheet with NOTHING ELSE and the JS that calls to Jquery.  I use the HTML on my pages... I configure the CSS the way that I want it... I take the JS file and put it in the JS direct and then I have a Jquery file loaded to work with it.  

lets say I have another plugin like JETMENU and some personal adjustments to CSS per se.  I would take an OVERALL CSS file from every extension... Add it to one place.  and then MIN it.  I would take the objects personal JS and add it to an OVERALL JS file... Add it to one place. and then MIN it.  

So on and So on.  What is the result... CLEAN easy to access CODE!!!  The style sheet should NOT be Bootstrap.  

This is how HTML Devs are working why the HELL NOT JOOMLA?   Why is it so important to make everything so automated only making it worse.  

Website designs are turning out beauty and varying levels of complexity that Joomla just doesn't have the ability to handle.  

Yes this isn't for everyone but this should be a choice.  

It has been 2 almost 3 years since Joomla 3.0 is out.  People are still posting about this issue.  I see one post stating / asking if we can implement BS 3?  NO.  Why?  because it is BS - PUN INTENDED!!!  You place people into a BOX by using BS.  While some like it... many do not.  At what point is this going to become a major factor and Joomla have to drop it all together? 

[Niv Froehlich]

Christian - I love your post!!!  It's got a good bit of sauce to it.

The question that I have, assuming the Joomla! project were to follow what you set out, how would you ensure that extensions from different extensions developers provide a consistent look and feel

a) among other extensions, from various different developers, when incorporated in a particular Joomla site? and

b) with the template being used by that site?

There's a Taoist saying, "How far down a wrong road must one travel before they decide to turn around?"

I'm just not convinced that we are heading down the wrong road - our vehicle might need some maintenance, or to be replaced altogether - but unless there is a better alternative that answers the above question - I disagree that the adoption and standardization of an HTML/CSS/JavaScript framework is akin ' to having set out down the wrong road' and that Joomla! needs to reverse course.

So my question is how would you solve this problem (maintaining consistent styling among extensions)?

N

PS

There are indeed very active discussions going on, ideas and proposals being put forward that are aimed at having the CMS incorporate a 'set standard' for a framework, while at the same time allowing for transitioning to newer versions (and perhaps frameworks).

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[Christian Matthew]

I have to ask you what exactly you mean by constant look and feel? However there is a very logical solution to this. If the dev wants to use boostrap then let then use bootstrap. Version whatever. When they give the file it should have it sepratley places final CSS file in the CSS folder. I take the file and add it to my main CSS sheet and min. It.

 

what does this accomplish. It accomplishes many things.

 

 1. It tells the dev hey look. I dont need alllll of bootstrap. Just parts. And here is what i used. you the front end take my bits and you can direct edit them as you wish. No overrides just direct code changes.

 

2.   now I have a generic file that I can go and make changes on to my liking.

 

3. When finished I can take the CSS add it to my main CSS file and min it. Boom.

 

4. JQuery should work similarly.

 

this would be so awesome and so simple. In fact this would allow the dev to use any framework. Like foundation for example. They could even get really fancy and use sass files included so that the user front end dev could edit the sass, compile the sass and then use that for there CSS. Or just add the sass style sheet and link it to the sass framework and just compile the whole project and the min CSS file would be created for you. Now that's genius.

 

again, give a sass sheet to include your bits. I @import it to my main sass workflow and just edit then compile.

 

how is the first options to the advanced sass options not being the very best solution? 

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[Niv Froehlich]

I see the merits of this approach, especially for reducing bloat and optimizing download and rendering (CSS/jQuery).

However, (and to be fair you did mention that folks should know how to code)

 People don't know HTML / CSS... That's THEIR PROBLEM not mine. 

But not everybody shares that view.   There are huge numbers of folks who want to use Joomla! without having to learn how to code - these range from one-off site owners who Joomla! for their business or organization to web designers who earn their living because they can use Joomla! or Wordpress to provide and maintain web sites for clients.

IMO, it's not good for the project as a whole and for those folks to force them to learn front-end development skills in order to get a consistent look and feel.

As for myself, I feel pretty confident hacking front-end design - but even then, I find having a good familiarity with Bootstrap, and working on UIs that utilize Bootstrap, to be a huge advantage.

Having to take apart other people's CSS, reverse engineer and then piece back together CSS from various extension developers, even with my capabilities - is a very 'unwanted nightmare.'

If one is inclined to do that, then there is no harm in shipping Bootstrap with the core - you can rip it out and do your own thing - seems to me that the problem is solved.

You'd be much less worse off than those who benefit from having the standard framework available.

My view is that time and energy is much better spent a) utilizing an existing, robust, ubiquitous and heavily tested framework; and b) developing a way to transition (forward-compatibility) to newer versions as they become available and 'production ready.'

Best,

N

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[Christian Matthew]

Wait this is a part of the madness. 

But not everybody shares that view.   There are huge numbers of folks who want to use Joomla! without having to learn how to code - these range from one-off site owners who Joomla! for their business or organization to web designers who earn their living because they can use Joomla! or Wordpress to provide and maintain web sites for clients.

 The fall back can and should be as normal.  Meaning, the template they are using should adhere to the implemented and or expected bootstrap that is assumed to be there.  

The extra bits are for the people that don't want to have bootstrap apart of the "main css / js"  

So for example.  Let's say person A is not a coder.  They are using a template that implements BS.  Fine.  Everything works as normal... The html in the extension calls classes that are there.  Person A is happy.  

Person B... Is in control of their own design process.  They don't mind at all that you are using a standardized framework.  Just give us the bits that you are using.  A dev might use 5% of the entire bootstrap class.  Just give us in a seperate organized folder the css and if you're nice the already min css.  

We can code a comment line in our main min or just css style sheet // Dev's extension here begin   // Dev's extension here end

What is wrong is with this approach?  

-------------------  Let me extend this idea out a little. 

----------------------------Idea 1 less advanced but would ultra streamlined.  Can Implement Practices Now.   

Let's organize even more.  Let's take version of BS and organize vertically.  Let's call it chunk's and break up the bootstrap into at least 25-50 chunks.  Make this the standard for Joomla.  So for example let's say the chunk for the readmore button .btn is in chunk 5 (an extension could use as many chunks as the dev dictates.)  Now me as the designer can go directly to my main css stylesheet and implement the style I want to give to chunk 5.  

I can put that in order of what extensions I am using into my main css style sheet.  

Let's now say I am installing extension that uses the readmore button chunk 5. Well now I know that I do not need the code the style for chunk 5 because it's already there.  You can do this per version of bootstrap so if there are class changes there won't be a conflict.  

For all my extensions i am using per project there may be these chunks 1, 3, 5, 10 20, 35, 40 of BS chunks.  

Now, my code is organized, none redundant and free of bloat!  Moreover, I can style my entire site just by changing aspects of the css chunks.  When I am done I can minify it and point my template to that sheet.  I can use whatever other framework or css style coding I want.  

ONE SHEET... SUPER ORGANIZED... MUCH BETTER... KEEPS EVERYONE HAPPY.... 

----------------------------Idea 2 More advanced but would ultra streamlined.  Perhaps Joomla 4.  

this is an idea and if I were, like learning physics, in a coding vacuum I would handle the situation like this.  Perhaps it is a little far fetched.  I would ask the dev's to put easter eggs / class identifiers when creating their extension's html.  So they could include the bootstrap style but include an identifier.  

via the backend.  We could take that identifier and make point to whatever class we want changing the html code.  Now for mixin's or other things this might get a little complicated but I think it could be done.  

So for example.  let's say dev rights a BS html framework for readmore btn's .btn-blue (this is the BS class)  In the backend all the BS added would be laid out.  readmore, nav-bar, carasel, scrolling menu, grid, etc... Say there is 20.  I could then as the front designer take those indentifiers and change them to what I want... so for readmore it would be .read-more instead of .btn-blue.  I would just go through and make the changes as necessary.  so now instead of the things pointing to bootstrap they are pointing to my one clean css stylesheet.  The output would be unified across all extensions.  

!!! This is GENIUS.... 

What this does in light of idea 1 is now I don't need to put in chunks of BS and recompile my css and min it.  I would literally call out to what the dev was using in CSS and making it point to what I actually want to use.  

Again, I can customize my style sheet anyway I want.  I can use .Less SASS or whatever ever I want.  

Alas, if the user doesn't know code or is not doing that the present fall back will be the BS attached to their template or extension.  

Feedback!!!

[Tristan Bailey]

Christian 

The issue is for the latest an any push for a CMS that can install as simple as WP and not Have to have a developer build it J! Has to choose some standard and this is one a lot of people are using as a base so makes it easy for lots of people and not too much education for some. 

We are all joomla builders and developers and this is a speed advantage over building from scratch. The same with HTML. We benifit from the setup and makes it easier for other extensions to match it a a base level. 

The only point I would agree is the HTML and CSS and js should be controlled 100% by the theme or possible to if you build all the overrides. It is possible to build your own template so you don't have to do bootstrap but its not 100% possible as some code comes out of the core and is not available in the overrides. These like the coming remove of Mootools required tool tips in next version. The core should decouple the little bits. As these little bits will also stop bootstrap 3 as 3 is mobile first as some of the CSS logic round the other way plus more html5 and even with rest of template in bs 3 little parts (I forget the actual) will still return 2.x code. As the backend has no need to redesign to bs 3. This would leave the need for different jquery and CSS in front and back which is a hassle.   

Ask as you say about 3rd party many dont use bootstrap at the moment so why you fussing? Have a look at purecss which uses yahoo yui and has code that strips out all you wanted. 

Tristan 

---
Tristan Bailey
Freelance web developer
+ analytics and social building

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[Christian Matthew]

Tristan... I am fussing really about the whole mentality of the process... In the end 1 single stylesheet should be use.  no more or no less.  Everyone keeps referring to people who don't know coding and are new to the process won't be able to... NO nobody is saying to blindly remove something.  For many people who just come onto the scene the template they are using can more than be the bootstrap css style sheet.  No changes needed.  they will never know there is a more complicated and extensive design process that is brewing for more advanced devs.  This was the point of Christina YEARS ago.  

With that said, yes all the freaking bits need to be decoupled.  Period.  

Check out this thread here to see what I am saying about standards and mixins and my idea for the solution to this process... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/joomla-dev-cms/7ommekXwB-w%5B101-125-false%5D

in short the point is this.  And you are right.  The dev should supply a css style sheet in the LEAST.  A more advanced dev can supply a Less and or SASS sheet as well with all the partials and mixins used.  

What Joomla should do is do two things to make standard.  

1.  Define chunks vertical Chunks of the CSS (in the least) of bootstrap and the partials of the Less files for BS too.  This way the less css can be added to from what the dev gives... 

2.  To prevent redundancy of code... Joomla should set up a mixins standard.  Again a decision should be made on Less or SASS or both if possible to do this.  

warning button, readmore button, button --- should all mixin to a less / sass style sheet.  The dev should define what Joomla standard mixins they are using.  

The end result would be a dev that could take chunks of code and implement them in as needed.  Ad if the Joomla defined mixin style is already being used the dev won't have to use that because his/her project already has that css and or mixin defined.  

The pure css is fine and if a person wants to do that then that is great along with any other framework that is available.  I plan on using foundation with Sass.  

You agree this is the best solution no?  Everyone wins.   

[Cliff Ford]

It seems to me that most of the focus here is on the creation of the style sheet. But what about what should go into a template? If you look at this handy little comparison:

http://responsive.vermilion.com/compare.php

You will see examples of the different markup class syntax between, say, Bootstrap 3 and Foundation 5.

So I guess a template could borrow the language translation methodology and go for something like 'class="<?php echo JXxxxx::_('COM_THINGY_CLASS_XYZ'); ?>"' and we could have translation tables for Bootstrap or Foundation or whatever. Is this a good/bad idea. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Cliff

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[Seth Warburton]

Sorry, but I disagree completely I don't believe Joomla should do either of these things. Doing so will introduce more redundancy, not less.

*Anything* that attempts to marry markup to presentation should occur only in the template. 

• You want to use Sass? Do it in your template.
• You want to use Foundation5? Implement it in your template.
• You want to create custom mixins? Do that in your template.
  
• You want to include only specific Bootstrap partials? Do that in your template.

All of these things can be done today. 

[Bakual]

Can we please have this discussion in one place only? There is no point crossposting the same arguments in two threads.

Go over to the CMS group into the Joomla and Bootstrap thread and keep discussing there.

[Troy]

Bear

On 2/23/2014 05:17, Seth Warburton wrote:

Sorry, but I disagree completely I don't believe Joomla should do either of these things. Doing so will introduce more redundancy, not less.

*Anything* that attempts to marry markup to presentation should occur only in the template. 

• You want to use Sass? Do it in your template.
• You want to use Foundation5? Implement it in your template.
• You want to create custom mixins? Do that in your template.
  
• You want to include only specific Bootstrap partials? Do that in your template.

All of these things can be done today. 

+1

[Johan Högdahl]

It seems this is not a problem just for Joomla developers. 

Its a general problem when people is developing CMS and others based on others code.

And when you do, you probably will do it just as i did a while ago.. ad your own CSS stuff after everything else just to get it work.

And when you do .. the bootstrap is already void and its better to remove it, which i did later.

And here Joomla is a a place where building templates from existing templates is done very often.

Some one wants to make a better design, takes one which seems to look about whats needed and starts modifying it.

When this already has been done a number of times, we gets CSS on CSS multiple times, and its bound to get displayed 

in a number of unexpected ways on different browsers. And wit cellphones and pads among the viewers there is bound to be many different browsers.

I don't think there is a simple solution on this. There are just to many programmers making templates used as Joomla templates.

But perhaps a simple Guide on how to build your template would do.

And to make it easier to select a source.. there could be a short instruction there on how to check for the problem wit multiple CSS layers.

There are guides on how to build templates, but i just checked, multiple CSS problems is not mentioned at all.

There could even be a classification on if a template is a good source for creating new ones.. 

You can give stars for other stuff .. why not on this. But i think its overkill. 

Describe the problem on the first side on the guide and how to avoid it... it will not get rid of the problem, but it would have helped me !