Is Joomla joining Google's AMP project

[mario notaro]

Hi everybody,
as of this thread http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=895706&p=3343890#p3343890 on Joomla.org I ask you, are we (I'm just a user) joining Google AMP project?
Pls, in the thread read the email posted, it is clear that it will be introduced IN the search results. Are we going to stay behind?

[George Wilson]

Jessica Dunbar has been in touch with Google about the AMP program. Jess, Michael and myself are currently scheduling a meeting with Google.

I'll get Jess to post more details here :)

Kind Regards,
George

[Jessica Dunbar]

Yes, I have a meeting with google today to discuss! I'll update you shortly after. 

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

How does that relate to Joomla ?  Isn't Google AMP related to the Template not Joomla core files ?  Or are you suggesting the default.php files use Google AMP custom divs/AMP JS library/AMP validator/AMP Components instead of html/php/bootstrap/css ?

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Jessica

"I have a meeting with google today to discuss!"

 What is there to discus ?  Surely either the Joomla dev's decide to incorporate the code into Joomla (like they did with bootstrap) or they decide not to.

Also the license in Joomla 3.4.5 and 3.5 says
 GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
                       Version 2, June 1991

Google AMP license says
Apache License
Version 2.0, January 2004

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
says that Apache License Version 2

"Please note that this license is not compatible with GPL version 2, because it has some requirements that are not in that GPL version"

[George Wilson]

For CSS and JS files we are ok (after much consultation with the lawyers). We found this out when trying to use Bootstrap 2 which is shipped under the same license.

For Joomla it's about investigating whether we want to include it as a JDocument type off the hoof and deal with adding in a JView* class specifically to deal with AMP which would also likely be required due to the strict standards that is required for AMP. Myself and Michael are going to investigate (and of course if there are any volunteers who would be willing to help we are more than ready to have you onboard to help) the feasibility of doing this in Joomla 3.x

Kind Regards,

George

[Michael Babker]

AMP isn't a full stack CSS framework in and of itself like Bootstrap is, rather an alternative means to display data.  Not yet having taken the time to work with it and basing this solely on the documentation and examples I've seen, it could work in parallel to any existing CSS framework within the limitations that AMP has set forth.

As you've so kindly noted, the license does present a minor issue.  However, Bootstrap 2.3.2 also ships under the Apache License Version 2 (https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/blob/v2.3.2/LICENSE).  I'm not in any spot to speak on what processes were undertaken to validate that Joomla could use Bootstrap with such a license, but I do know that the legal folks were consulted and advised that Bootstrap could be shipped and implemented in Joomla.  Dependent on how AMP would be implemented, it too could potentially ship with Joomla, but that would require consulting with folks much more familiar with licensing rules than I am.

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[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

"AMP isn't a full stack CSS framework in and of itself like Bootstrap is, rather an alternative means to display data.  Not yet having taken the time to work with it and basing this solely on the documentation and examples I've seen, it could work in parallel to any existing CSS framework within the limitations that AMP has set forth."

I did have a look at the documentation for it and can understand what you mean by "an alternative means to display data" ... and I can see how a Template can be created.  But other than being another way to create a Template I am at a loss to see any advantages it would have over html/php/css/bootstrap.  As I see it Google AMP just replaces <div> tags with predefined tags.  The blurb released by Google says it renders the pages faster than the conventional methods ... but is it really faster and where is the data to support Googles claim ?

From what I can see it is a way for Google to integrate their ads into a website and facilitate 'profiling' of the sites visitors ... and doing it under the guise of "improving user experience".

If it was integrated in Joomla would it be just for Templates or would it be used for the default.php output pages as well ?  And who would it benefit the most ... Joomla users or Google Ads ?

Advertising: Ads help fund free services and content on the web. With Accelerated Mobile Pages, we want to support a comprehensive range of ad formats, ad networks and technologies. Any sites using AMP HTML will retain their choice of ad networks, as well as any formats that don’t detract from the user experience. It’s also a core goal of the project to support subscriptions and paywalls. We’ll work with publishers and those in the industry to help define the parameters of an ad experience that still provides the speed we’re striving for with AMP.

https://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/introducing-accelerated-mobile-pages.html

Make no mistake Google AMP is 'Wolf in sheep's clothing' that is looking to hide in the code of websites. 

[Hannes Papenberg]

I think you are missing the point of AMP and rather see it as an attack
from Google against websites. AMP is an attempt to get rid of all the
shit that people tend to include into their sites that don't help the
users. They want simpler and less HTML, less CSS, no Javascript, less
assets overall.

When I go to spiegel.de, a german news magazine, I get 6 different
trackers and most likely several ads (I'm blocking all of them). Loading
joomla.org gives you 4 trackers and ~650kb for that page, almost 500kb
of which are Javascript and 37 requests in total. I would say that you
_could_ do most of the features on that page without all that JS. AMP
tries to reduce all that and especially reduce the number of requests
that are done per page, targeting mobile devices specifically.

I think the idea is good and I'm happy that Google is giving it a strong
and loud voice. From my perspective a LOT of sites are overburdened with
unnecessary features, trackers, ads, etc. (Now grandpa is starting to
talk about the war:) I know a time when a website had one CSS file and
excluding images, a page was under 50kb. I would love to see Joomla
invest in such a reduction of page size.

But: I think Google does not do the web a favour with the AMP project
itself. The problem is not, that we had the wrong tools for the job so
far. We don't need to define a new subset of HTML or ban Javascript
entirely from websites, but we have to teach developers and deciders to
use good solutions and pay attention to the size and number of assets on
their site. For example, Joomla could already gain a lot by exporting
features like the caption in com_content in a separat plugin, so that
you can disable it easily without doing template overrides. Or Joomla
could get extension developers to provide .less/.scss files for their
extensions and a switch to disable them adding their own CSS. Loading
one bigger CSS file instead of 1 big and 5 small ones would already
improve the speed quite a bit. Looking at joomla.org, 6 out of 10
javascript files could be merged. That means only half as many
connections have to be made for the Javascript assets.

AMP, instead of getting people to improve in these areas with relatively
few changes, seems to propose to rather create a new website for mobile
users (again). Even if everyone would create such an AMP page, I can
guarantee you, that marketing will soon again ask to include better
tracking, "and why can't we at least put that one little ad there in
that corner?" Again: The problem is not the tools that we have, but the
wrong way we are using them.

Hannes

Am 14.11.2015 um 13:05 schrieb Webdongle Elgnodbew:
>
> "/AMP isn't a full stack CSS framework in and of itself like

> Bootstrap is, rather an alternative means to display data. Not
> yet having taken the time to work with it and basing this solely
> on the documentation and examples I've seen, it could work in
> parallel to any existing CSS framework within the limitations that

> AMP has set forth/."

>
>
> I did have a look at the documentation for it and can understand what

> you mean by "/an alternative means to display data/" ... and I can see

> how a Template can be created. But other than being another way to
> create a Template I am at a loss to see any advantages it would have
> over html/php/css/bootstrap. As I see it Google AMP just replaces
> <div> tags with predefined tags. The blurb released by Google says it
> renders the pages faster than the conventional methods ... but is it
> really faster and where is the data to support Googles claim ?
>
> From what I can see it is a way for Google to integrate their ads into
> a website and facilitate 'profiling' of the sites visitors ... and
> doing it under the guise of "improving user experience".
>
> If it was integrated in Joomla would it be just for Templates or would
> it be used for the default.php output pages as well ? And who would
> it benefit the most ... Joomla users or Google Ads ?
>

> *Advertising*: Ads help fund free services and content on the web.

> With Accelerated Mobile Pages, we want to support a comprehensive
> range of ad formats, ad networks and technologies. Any sites using
> AMP HTML will retain their choice of ad networks, as well as any
> formats that don’t detract from the user experience. It’s also a
> core goal of the project to support subscriptions and paywalls.
> We’ll work with publishers and those in the industry to help
> define the parameters of an ad experience that still provides the
> speed we’re striving for with AMP.
>
> https://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/introducing-accelerated-mobile-pages.html
>
> Make no mistake Google AMP is 'Wolf in sheep's clothing' that is
> looking to hide in the code of websites.
>
> On Saturday, 14 November 2015 01:54:25 UTC, Michael Babker wrote:
>
> AMP isn't a full stack CSS framework in and of itself like
> Bootstrap is, rather an alternative means to display data. Not
> yet having taken the time to work with it and basing this solely
> on the documentation and examples I've seen, it could work in
> parallel to any existing CSS framework within the limitations that
> AMP has set forth.
>
> As you've so kindly noted, the license does present a minor
> issue. However, Bootstrap 2.3.2 also ships under the Apache
> License Version 2
> (https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/blob/v2.3.2/LICENSE

> <https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/blob/v2.3.2/LICENSE>). I'm not

> <javascript:>.

> To post to this group, send email to

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[Michael Babker]

From my awareness ads are 100% opt-in and are not a requirement to use AMP.  The way I've read that statement their goal is to continue supporting those who use ads or paywall type features on their sites in the AMP platform (see the amp-ad spec for more).

Ironically, the place I first learned about AMP was a blog post from wordpress.com, specifically https://vip.wordpress.com/2015/10/07/mobile-web/.  That page also has a link to its AMP counterpart, I'd suggest taking a look at its rendered output as a way to see it in action and to calm your concerns about the ad integrations.

So ya, bigger picture, AMP is a different way to address a problem that faces developers and site builders.  Is it the "right" way?  Probably not.  Is it going to become a de facto standard?  Probably so, if for no other reason than the fact that it's being pushed by Google and has support of platforms and companies such as WordPress (Automattic) and Twitter.

[Jessica Dunbar]

What is there to discus ?  Surely either the Joomla dev's decide to incorporate the code into Joomla (like they did with bootstrap) or they decide not to.

@webdongle

Just to clarify, the meeting on Friday was the first meeting with Google regarding AMP. My role in this was to get the right people involved. I organized a meeting with Google hangout and invited Michael and George.  There were no decisions, as it wan an informal meeting to discuss and listen based of some interest.  I think it is always good for us to keep an open mind to discussions and ideas. If you have any questions for me personally, please feel free to contact me and I will clarify anything I can. 

As far as the advertising accusations - its something we can ask about and clarify. 

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Jessica

 "As far as the advertising accusations"

'accusations' is a strong word ... one which I feel is an inaccurate description for my stating what I observed and my concerns.(but obviously 'accusations is your opinion of my previous post ... and I accept your right to hold that opinion).

"There were no decisions, as it wan an informal meeting to discuss and listen based of some interest"

I can understand that Google would be cautious about making agreements after the last debacle. (>> tongue in cheek)

" I think it is always good for us to keep an open mind to discussions and ideas"

That's why I ask questions because because I have an open mind that looks for answers.



@Michael & @Hannes

I take your points and (to some extent) understand them.  Am I to understand that both of you see little point in Google AMP ?  And if so then why Google bring out another 'tool' for rendering web pages rather than work on improving the existing 'tools' ?


@all

Is the Google AMP project just another attempt by the industry giant to dominate the internet ?  Or a genuine (all be it misguided) attempt to improve page speed ?

Has anyone come to a conclusion as to the usefulness (or otherwise) of implementing AMP into Joomla ?

[brian teeman]

The reference to adverts is to show that you can still use advert networks with AMP even though other scripts are disabled. It does NOT say that AMP forces adverts into your site

I am not sure if you can see this from outside the UK as it is bbc.co.uk which is ADVERT free in the UK but here is a link to their demo AMP page - spot the adverts - nope there are none there. (just in case you cant see it from outside the USA here is a screenshot.

Link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-34465270 
Screenshot http://i.tee.mn/Google%20speeds%20up%20news%20article%20downloads%20on%20mobile%20devices.png

[Hannes Papenberg]

I think it is a genuine attempt to make the internet better. I don't see
a reason why I should assume any negative intentions behind this.

I also think that AMP started out as a project to do exactly the things
that I described in my earlier post. If you are only aiming for best
pagespeed possible, AMP will be the result. From my perspective they
just concentrated a little bit to much on just that one goal.

AMP will raise awareness for better pagespeed, but I don't think the
project itself is very usefull.

Hannes

Am 14.11.2015 um 21:13 schrieb Webdongle Elgnodbew:
> @Jessica
>
> "/As far as the advertising accusations/"

>
>
> 'accusations' is a strong word ... one which I feel is an inaccurate
> description for my stating what I observed and my concerns.(but
> obviously 'accusations is your opinion of my previous post ... and I
> accept your right to hold that opinion).
>
>

> "/There were no decisions, as it wan an informal meeting to
> discuss and listen based of some interest/"

>
>
> I can understand that Google would be cautious about making agreements
> after the last debacle. (>> tongue in cheek)
>
>
>

> "/I think it is always good for us to keep an open mind to
> discussions and ideas/"

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[Michael Babker]

AMP has merits and I believe has good intentions.  It is not a replacement for other best practices that should be looked at and other ways to improve Joomla's architecture and page rendering processes.  For me it's almost parallel to Responsive Web Design; it's something you should be doing but rely heavily on third party tools to accomplish for you.

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[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Brian

" it is bbc.co.uk which is ADVERT free"

No ads but in the page source there are several mentions of ads and google

googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('bbccom_
//www.googletagservices.com/tag/js/gpt.js'; document.write('<scr' + 'ipt src="' + src + '">\x3C/

sponsoredByText":"is sponsored by","adsByGoogleText":"Ads by Google","summary":"","type":"","staticBase":"\/bbcdotcom","staticHost":"http:\/\/static.bbci.co.uk",

What are those for ?

Personally I  don;t see any benefit with Google AMP ... but I am not a dev and have just got my head around Bootstrap

There seems to be a culture that jumps on to any band wagon the is 'Bright, new and shiny' and contains buzz words aimed at users of mobile devices. But ..."Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on the same side" Claude McDonald

[Michael Babker]

That's in the non-AMP page, and from a guess if you're seeing that on the .co.uk domain they're using the same markup for that and their .com domain which I'm redirected to in the US and it does have advertisements on the site.  The AMP version of the page (both .co.uk and .com) doesn't have this script.

--

[Jessica Dunbar]

@webdongle keep the conversation productive, technical, and non accusatory.  We are discussing a new way to make web pages that are optimized to load instantly. 

Referring our developer culture like

:"There seems to be a culture that jumps on to any band wagon the is 'Bright, new and shiny' and contains buzz words aimed at users of mobile devices. But ..."Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on the same side" Claude McDonald:

Will not be tolerated and if you continue, PLT will take the proper steps in banning you.

[Niv Froehlich]

First of all, thank you to the Joomla! Dev community - you somehow keep the latest tech trends on the radar - and I find a lot of use in just following the discussions - I really learn a lot and it's greatly appreciated.

@Jessica re Webdongle's comment
 

:"There seems to be a culture that jumps on to any band wagon the is 'Bright, new and shiny' and contains buzz words aimed at users of mobile devices. But ..."Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on the same side" Claude McDonald:

Without reference as to whether or not I personally agree that this statement represents the Joomla dev culture, I certainly support anybody's right to make such a statement and see the utility in considering scenarios in which for example, 'pluralistic ignorance' may drive project decisions.

Although I certainly applaud attempts for civility (which I understand to be the intention),  I cannot help but look at the response (quoted below) and be somewhat dismayed.

Will not be tolerated and if you continue, PLT will take the proper steps in banning you.

I would politely suggest that 'open-source' ought to be 'open to criticism.'

Again - thanks to everybody for all your amazing Joomla work - feels great to be getting back in gear with Web Dev and I'm very excited about the future of Joomla!

Cheers,

N

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Sergio Manzi <s...@smz.it> wrote:

Ohhhhh, good! THAT'S productive, technical and non-accusatory!

My compliments, lady!

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[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Jessica

"keep the conversation productive, technical, and non accusatory.  We are discussing a new way to make web pages that are optimized to load instantly"

Someone in your position should know better than to try and 'flame a discussion when they don't agree with the comments of others'.  My quoting the "Sometimes all the fools ..." phrase was not aimed at the dev's.  It was a general comment on the hype that Google AMP has accumulated over all

Michael, Hannes, George and Brian have the courtesy of answering my posts in an informative manner.  However, you falsely accuse me of being accusational and use that false accusation as an excuse to threaten me like a school yard bully.

Yes my concerns about Google slipping in tracking etc. code into AMP have been  allayed.  But no I still don't think it is useful.  And I have yet to see a post where any of the Dev's say they think Google AMP would be useful in Joomla.

Ban me for having my opinion if you wish ... but I will not rise to your threats by insulting you in the same manner that you insult me.  Your threat to ban me came even though I acknowledged you had the right to your opinion https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/ynm0AabEbDg/UMtvgpU0CQAJ

Ban me for having my opinion if you wish ... but what will that tell the community about you ?  Using a a false accusation as an excuse to silence someone who has a different opinion to you ?!

[Leo Lammerink]

@Jessica Dunbar,
I am absolutely not convinced that you express yourself on behalf of PLT(?) or represent the opinion of the PLT (?) Can Leadership of PLT clarify this please?

Just a quick question to clarify your position in PLT: Can you be so kind to point me to some of your contributions (on Github maybe) as a Member of PLT?

Thanks

Leo Lammerink

[Michael Babker]

You do realize that there are a fair number of PLT members whose contributions outside of the code outnumber their activity on GitHub (or even specifically the CMS repository), right?  Be careful of the types of questions (especially involving one's character or contributions) you make in a public forum such as this.

[Leo Lammerink]

I am not aware of that Michael and therefor I ask a legitimate question I believe. Don't state that I commented on the person's character...I would not nor could I since I have never seen or met the person so please refrain from making such statement? I asked very clearly of the persons contributions in the PLT which (again) is a legitimate question. I have never seen the person on any (public) platform of PLT so if the person speaks out very loud here all of a sudden (seemingly) on behalf of PLT I think I am fully entitled to ask what the person brings to PLT?

Cheers Michael

[Ronni Christiansen]

Sadly some people use the exact same method of debate on every single ocation.

@Webdongle - i think you should be banned - i think you are one of the major problems of a community where people are affraid to take part due to bullies like you who outright attacks anyone you disagree with.

Guess what - its ok to disagree and your in no way a judge of our community.

So start putting on a constructive hat - and stop those childish person attacks.

@Leo - just read what i wrote above.

And then to the subject - interesting - i am sure the people who are mandated to work with it is carefully considering all options in their process.

 

[jms]

Wow… "Will not be tolerated"...

@Jessica
We are no more in Mambo times and I don't think you want a new Lone Ranger to start a blog on this.

As long as a post does not contain anything against forum Rules (these should apply here as on the Forum), people are untitled to express their opinion.

I am sure you shot faster than your shadow and I expect some apologies.

Concerning AMP, I have personally no fixed opinion but it is true that I feel concerned by this tendency to be more and more dependent from big companies like Twitter and Google.
I wished bootstrap had been an option and not forced upon users, same I guess for AMP which should be Opt-in.
But that's just me.

Friendly

Grand'Pa JM

[Leo Lammerink]

@Ronni - I feel no affinity with your words except for the last line. I am also sure that the decision and advantages/disadvantages  will be very careful taken in consideration.

[jms]

<rant>
@Ronni Christiansen
What if you were considered as a major problem to this community by some who believe your stands on the project reorganization + personal hidden negotiations to get ads in the CMS back-end have provoked the departure of very important elements of our Production Team?

Let's stop baying for blood please and refrain from asking bans on public lists.
</rant>

Thank you all for your attention and let's keep the discussion on the subject.

Grand'Pa JM

------------------------------------

Note: This does not mean I do agree at all time with @webdongle

[Wilko Rietveld]

To get back to the original Question of this Thread Google AMP…

I feel it is certainly worth to get a better understanding of the AMP project. When it proofs its self it would be nice to have it work with Joomla and secondly inventing stuff can have unknown positive side effects…

My question is, what is really the catch in the AMP project? From what I read Google is focussing with AMP on less technical and Google Cache!

And Yes, less technical can mean less delay and offering content from “around the corner” will help to improve websites serving data.

The first (less tech) can be in reach for most people. The second could be done by CDN or join AMP get Google Cache..?

Furthermore, what the AMP FAQ states is that WordPress.com the WP content platform is joining the project. (Which as a publisher platform sounds logical)  Using Goole Cache, could mean better performance, sounds as smart marketing…  for the framework.

I did not read that WordPress.org is going to integrate AMP in there CMS platform. I am not sure the average WP or Joomla website is “Publisher” and there fore AMP material, but well, marketing is a powerful tool.

Kind regards / Wilko

[brian teeman]

I see no harm at all in INVESTIGATING this and I 100% trust those who are doing so to be diligent and complete in their investigations.

It may be that AMP is as simple as a plugin or a template.

It may be that this is something for core to include

It may be that this is something for an extension

At this point we don't know. Please allow those people tasked with INVESTIGATING this the time to do their task. 

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Ronni

"Sadly some people use the exact same method of debate on every single ocation."

Yes they ban anyone who expresses an opinion that disagrees with theirs.  Just like Jessica threatening to ban me


@Leo

"I have never seen the person on any (public) platform of PLT so if the person speaks out very loud here all of a sudden (seemingly) on behalf of PLT I think I am fully entitled to ask what the person brings to PLT?"

Googling 'Jessica Dunbar PLT' brings various results in Facebook and other social media(from about march this year) saying she is 'Marketing Lead' for the PLT.  Yes it is a big shock for me that she suddenly speaks loudly threatening a ban. N.B I have received an email from Sergio he says that he has :"been silently, without any notice, banned from the joomla-dev-cms Google group"


@ infograf768

"What if you were considered as a major problem to this community by some who believe your stands on the project reorganization + personal hidden negotiations to get ads in the CMS back-end have provoked the departure of very important elements of our Production Team?"

It appears that Jessica has a big stick and is twisting what I said (by trying to make it look like a general comment was aimed at devs) to conduct a vendetta against me  for my opposition to the ads.


@Brian

"At this point we don't know. Please allow those people tasked with INVESTIGATING this the time to do their task"

Nobody has suggested otherwise.  Concerns have been raised and questions asked.  There have been various posts from several people (including devs) questioning the usefulness of AMP.  But nobody has posted anything against investigating.  In fact asking questions and expressing concerns is encouraging it not disparaging it.

Although AMP may not be a useful tool to have ... it may be necessary for it to be an option to use in Joomla so that Joomla is flexible to the needs of some users.  I am not against AMP per se ... I only express my concerns and question if it is relevant for Joomla.  And for that I am accused of ridiculing the devs when I make a general comment about the hype that surrounds AMP.  The culture I speak of is that generally (on the internet) not the Joomla devs.  In fact I have been impressed recently of how fast Michael and other devs have responded to my posts and fixed bugs that have been reported in the forums.

As for AMP ... it would seem that only one person posting in this thread has made their mind up as to if it should be included.  And the person is not me.  imho 4 questions should be asked

1. Would it allow Google to collect metrics about visitors to sites built with Joomla ?
   
2. Could it be incorporated into Joomla ?
   
3. If it could be incorporated into Joomla how would it be done ?
4. Would it be useful or not to Joomla ?

If you look closely at my posts (about Google AMP) you will see that all my questions pertain to one of those 4 issues.

 

[Hannes Papenberg]

1. No
2. Yes
3. A template
4. See my previous statements

Am 15.11.2015 um 15:04 schrieb Webdongle Elgnodbew:
> @Ronni
>
> "/Sadly some people use the exact same method of debate on every
> single ocation/."

>
>
> Yes they ban anyone who expresses an opinion that disagrees with
> theirs. Just like Jessica threatening to ban me
>
>
> @Leo
>

> "/I have never seen the person on any (public) platform of PLT so

> if the person speaks out very loud here all of a sudden
> (seemingly) on behalf of PLT I think I am fully entitled to ask

> what the person brings to PLT?/"

>
>
> Googling 'Jessica Dunbar PLT' brings various results in Facebook and
> other social media(from about march this year) saying she is
> 'Marketing Lead' for the PLT. Yes it is a big shock for me that she
> suddenly speaks loudly threatening a ban. N.B I have received an email

> from Sergio he says that he has :"/been silently, _without any
> notice_, banned from the joomla-dev-cms Google group/"
>
>
> @ infograf768
>
> "/What if you were considered as a major problem to this community

> by some who believe your stands on the project reorganization +
> personal hidden negotiations to get ads in the CMS back-end have
> provoked the departure of very important elements of our

> Production Team?/"

>
>
> It appears that Jessica has a big stick and is twisting what I said
> (by trying to make it look like a general comment was aimed at devs)
> to conduct a vendetta against me for my opposition to the ads.
>
>
> @Brian
>
> "At this point we don't know. Please allow those people tasked
> with INVESTIGATING this the time to do their task"
>
>
> Nobody has suggested otherwise. Concerns have been raised and
> questions asked. There have been various posts from several people
> (including devs) questioning the usefulness of AMP. But nobody has
> posted anything against investigating. In fact asking questions and
> expressing concerns is encouraging it not disparaging it.
>
> Although AMP may not be a useful tool to have ... it may be necessary
> for it to be an option to use in Joomla so that Joomla is flexible to
> the needs of some users. I am not against AMP per se ... I only
> express my concerns and question if it is relevant for Joomla. And
> for that I am accused of ridiculing the devs when I make a general
> comment about the hype that surrounds AMP. The culture I speak of is
> that generally (on the internet) not the Joomla devs. In fact I have
> been impressed recently of how fast Michael and other devs have
> responded to my posts and fixed bugs that have been reported in the
> forums.
>
> As for AMP ... it would seem that only one person posting in this
> thread has made their mind up as to if it should be included. And the
> person is not me. imho 4 questions should be asked
>

> 1. Would it allow Google to collect metrics about visitors to sites
> built with Joomla ?
> 2. Could it be incorporated into Joomla ?
> 3. If it could be incorporated into Joomla how would it be done ?
> 4. Would it be useful or not to Joomla ?

>
> If you look closely at my posts (about Google AMP) you will see that
> all my questions pertain to one of those 4 issues.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, 15 November 2015 08:18:11 UTC, Ronni Christiansen wrote:
>
> Sadly some people use the exact same method of debate on every
> single ocation.
>
>
> @Webdongle - i think you should be banned - i think you are one of
> the major problems of a community where people are affraid to take
> part due to bullies like you who outright attacks anyone you
> disagree with.
>
> Guess what - its ok to disagree and your in no way a judge of our
> community.
>
> So start putting on a constructive hat - and stop those childish
> person attacks.
>
> @Leo - just read what i wrote above.
>
> And then to the subject - interesting - i am sure the people who
> are mandated to work with it is carefully considering all options
> in their process.
>

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[Leo Lammerink]

@Webdongle: I am no party in your issue with whoever. I just vented my own private opinion. Please leave me out of your challenge?

Thanks

--

[Leo Lammerink]

Hannes does not happen often ;-) but I do agree.....

[Bakual]

Just to put that out of the way.

Yes, Jessica is a very valuable member of the PLT and does exactly what she is supposed to do in our team. If you watch any of the presentation she gave, you will see quite fast where she excels in. Hint: It isn't primrary coding.

There are other members of the PLT which aren't very active on GitHub, maybe you even never heard their names. Tom Hutchison would be such a person. He does a perfect job maintaning our docs pages, you likely never see him do anything at GitHub.

Please stop questioning if a member of the PLT is valuable to the team. You are free to question your represantive once the new structure is in place (assuming you are in a working group by then), but until then we can and will do that ourself. Thanks.

Am Sonntag, 15. November 2015 05:03:35 UTC+1 schrieb Leo Lammerink:

@Jessica Dunbar,
I am absolutely not convinced that you express yourself on behalf of PLT(?) or represent the opinion of the PLT (?) Can Leadership of PLT clarify this please?

Just a quick question to clarify your position in PLT: Can you be so kind to point me to some of your contributions (on Github maybe) as a Member of PLT?

Thanks

Leo Lammerink

On 11/15/2015 6:17 AM, Jessica Dunbar wrote:

@webdongle keep the conversation productive, technical, and non accusatory.  We are discussing a new way to make web pages that are optimized to load instantly. 

Referring our developer culture like

:"There seems to be a culture that jumps on to any band wagon the is 'Bright, new and shiny' and contains buzz words aimed at users of mobile devices. But ..."Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on the same side" Claude McDonald:

Will not be tolerated and if you continue, PLT will take the proper steps in banning you.

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[Leo Lammerink]

Thomas, thanks for the reply and it is appreciated. However with no offense at all please look at this https://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/leadership-team.html . I do know Tom's contributions.... 100%. If I may refer to the link above which is clearly outdated (?) who is a member of PLT actually and what are respective assignments? I do not believe that asking such question is offensive at all since the Joomla website does not give any clues? Am I at the "shooting range" for asking who is in PLT and who is doing what? If so we have gone back to Mambo-days 10 years ago me think?

Cheers Thomas

[Hannes Papenberg]

Please read what AMP is. There is no requirement for any code inclusion from Google into your site.

Am 15.11.2015 4:08 nachm. schrieb "Webdongle Elgnodbew" <in...@weblinksonline.co.uk>:

@Hannes

"3. A template"

Giving users the ability to create/use a Google AMP Template could possibly help attract more Joomla users.  But that could be done without the AMP code being incorporated into Joomla couldn't it ?

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[Michael Babker]

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Webdongle Elgnodbew <in...@weblinksonline.co.uk> wrote:

1. Would it allow Google to collect metrics about visitors to sites built with Joomla ?
   

There isn't a clear answer on that in the documentation.  At face value though, if all that is being included is their JavaScript file, then the only data they'd be able to glean would be the equivalent of what they gather via the search index.  AMP is entirely client side (browser) technology.  The only server side (PHP code in our case) integration would be the logic necessary to build the correct output, not much different than our HTML, JSON, or Feed document types.

1. Could it be incorporated into Joomla ?

Yes.  In the simplest form, it would be a new JDocument type meaning extensions would have to add support for it once in place (add a view.amp.php view class alongside their view.html.php classes).  It would most likely also require the ability to define layouts specific for the view format and an additional layout file in the template, the former being something the existing MVC infrastructure can't do on its own and the latter just requiring some documentation on a new reserved name (similar to how index.php, error.php, and component.php are reserved names as base template layouts).

1. If it could be incorporated into Joomla how would it be done ?
   

Somewhat answered above.  Joomla supports several document types already (feed (RSS & Atom), XML, JSON, and OpenSearch) but requires extensions to implement at a minimum view classes to support these formats.

1. Would it be useful or not to Joomla ?
   

If the project takes off, yes.  It's one of those chicken and egg situations. 

If you look closely at my posts (about Google AMP) you will see that all my questions pertain to one of those 4 issues.

A couple of your posts got mildly accusatory toward ads being force-fed into the platform.  Posts like this one with very straightforward questions have been helpful.

[Bakual]

As long as you ask politely, there is nothing wrong with it. It's the tone (sound?) which makes the music (hope that translates well).

[Leo Lammerink]

I understand from my language KB what you mean "c'est la ' etc

Cheers

Leo

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[Leo Lammerink]

I understand this very well Thomas "c'est le ton qui fait la musique " I though have not received an answer regretfully  re. my question? Is that so difficult?

Cheers
Leo

On 11/15/2015 11:53 PM, Bakual wrote:

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[Hannes Papenberg]

Please open a new thread instead of hijacking this one.

[Bakual]

Which question? About the link with the LT members? It may be outdated or already ahead of time.
https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/production-leadership-team#members is usually more accurate.

And yes, Tom is no longer in PLT (was a bad example, I agree). He resigned earlier this year.

Am Sonntag, 15. November 2015 19:25:53 UTC+1 schrieb Leo Lammerink:

I understand this very well Thomas "c'est le ton qui fait la musique " I though have not received an answer regretfully  re. my question? Is that so difficult?

Cheers
Leo

On 11/15/2015 11:53 PM, Bakual wrote:

As long as you ask politely, there is nothing wrong with it. It's the tone (sound?) which makes the music (hope that translates well).

Am Sonntag, 15. November 2015 16:24:49 UTC+1 schrieb Leo Lammerink:

Thomas, thanks for the reply and it is appreciated. However with no offense at all please look at this https://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/leadership-team.html . I do know Tom's contributions.... 100%. If I may refer to the link above which is clearly outdated (?) who is a member of PLT actually and what are respective assignments? I do not believe that asking such question is offensive at all since the Joomla website does not give any clues? Am I at the "shooting range" for asking who is in PLT and who is doing what? If so we have gone back to Mambo-days 10 years ago me think?

Cheers Thomas

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[Leo Lammerink]

Ahead of time? Seriously?

Cheers Thomas

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[Leo Lammerink]

Hello Hannes, glad you joined the party,,,,,Was already wondering where you were? I was actually deeply concerned! "Hannes did not posted a ('whatever') reply. Me got very worried!"

You are a little bit late though.   I admire your (paid by the community) contributions tremendously! You have done a great job with the new router..... Cool! I hope the Community likes it as much as you do(!)

Thanks for contributing so much of your private (paid for... )  time to the project?  Awesome! Glad to see it in Joomla 3.5 (when it works) Great job!

Leo 8)

[Paul Orwig]

"Assholes are killing your project" - it was true in 2009 and it is even more true today.

http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project

I ask that Leo be removed from this list. Why would anyone want to join a community or remain in a community that tolerates so much disrespect?

 

[Vic Drover]

seconded.

Cheers,

Victor Drover
Founder and CEO, Anything Digital
Co-founder, Watchful.li & jInbound.com
262-923-8200 ext. 0
Facebook: AnythingDigital | watchfulli | JInbound
Twitter: @VicDrover | @AnythingDig | @watchfulli | @JoomlaInbound

[Niv Froehlich]

Hi folks, 

Thanks again to the Joomla Dev community for staying on the leading edge and exploring important new technologies.

Here are some key points to consider (my 2 cents)


AMP has Significant Effects for Search Engine Results:

As for advantages of using AMP, here is an article from Search Engine Watch on the SERP impact of using / not-using AMP.

http://searchenginewatch.com/sew/opinion/2430844/google-s-amp-project-what-will-be-the-impact-on-publishers#


AMP is part of Mobile Performance Best-Practices:

Although it's been mentioned somewhere earlier in this long thread, the primary purpose of AMP is to get mobile pages to load faster (specifically when clicking through SERPs).

Google advertises:

"In a sample of pages our early partners created we are seeing performance improvements measured through Speed Index between 15% and 85%. This was measured with a simulated 3G connection and a simulated Nexus 5 device. The best part is you don't need to be a performance expert to get this; best practices are baked right in. And as we optimize AMP HTML in the future, all pages benefit."

https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/

So, using AMP, we are seeing significant performance improvements for Mobile pages found on Google SERPs - there is no competing technology (for Google SERPs), so using AMP is simply a 'best-practice approach' to mobile performance.


All AMP is is a Specific Subset of HTML

Really, that's all AMP is - a subset of HTML.   I know it's 'anti-climactic,' but that's all it really is. 

See:
https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/spec/amp-html-format.md

Is AMP compatible with Bootstrap?

If Joomla relies on a front-end framework, then the real question is, is AMP compatible with that framework (in our case, Bootstrap).

It would perhaps be even better if AMP was already 'baked-in' to the front-end Framework being used.

Does Bootstrap incorporate AMP?  What's the Bootstrap Roadmap on this?

(I couldn't find any info).


How has Wordpress chosen to implement AMP?

See https://wordpress.org/plugins/amp/

With the plugin active, all content on your site will have dynamically generated AMP-compatible versions, accessible by appending /amp/ to the end your permalinks. (If you do not have pretty permalinks enabled, you can do the same thing by appending ?amp=1.)

Follow along with or contribute to the development of this plugin at https://github.com/Automattic/amp-wp

Why not learn from or work with our WP colleagues?   

However, is this (dynamically generating additional pages)  a 'band-aid' solution? Are we unnecessarily creating duplicate content?

I think this could be handled much more elegantly.

Is AMP a Secret Conspiracy to Take over the World?

Given the tone of some of the comments in this thread, I think we should certainly investigate this possibility.

Is the Google AMP Project willing to Liaison with the PLT?

Yes?  Brilliant!

What is the 'Real Risk' of Joomla! sites failing to adopt AMP?

This will all go back to "Which CMS is better on Search-Engines?"

The answer to this question can often be the number determining factor of which CMS people will choose.

For a discussion of SERP implications, see the link at the top of this response from Search Engine Watch.

Wordpress is already on-board.  


Bottom-line

It seems plain and obvious that for anybody who cares about SEO rankings will choose Wordpress over Joomla! in the absence of an AMP'd Joomla!

Cheers,

N

[Niv Froehlich]

@Webdongle

If it was integrated in Joomla would it be just for Templates or would it be used for the default.php output pages as well ?  And who would it benefit the most ... Joomla users or Google Ads ?

Advertising: Ads help fund free services and content on the web. With Accelerated Mobile Pages, we want to support a comprehensive range of ad formats, ad networks and technologies. Any sites using AMP HTML will retain their choice of ad networks, as well as any formats that don’t detract from the user experience. It’s also a core goal of the project to support subscriptions and paywalls. We’ll work with publishers and those in the industry to help define the parameters of an ad experience that still provides the speed we’re striving for with AMP.

https://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/introducing-accelerated-mobile-pages.html

Make no mistake Google AMP is 'Wolf in sheep's clothing' that is looking to hide in the code of websites. 

Actually, this is not a correct interpretation.   Many web sites count on advertising (i.e. banners) as a form of revenue, and serving up those ads across a range of devices (and quickly) is a huge challenge.

All this is saying is that for those who choose to display ads (in fact, those who count on ads for revenue), that the AMP project will have specifications to 'support a comprehensive range of ad formats, networks and technologies."

As someone who, as a business requirement,  has to figure out how to serve up ads across a range of devices - I see the need for this.

N

[Michael Babker]

Answering specifically on the duplicate content piece, it seems this is encouraging the concept of a mobile and desktop site based on the spec and implementations I've seen (BBC, Automattic's WordPress plugin, and Twitter).  With BBC I believe they are setting the "real" URL via the canonical tag (or one of the others, may be getting them confused).  In truth though, you can't support AMP and "pure" HTML on the same page/URI; there are enough differences in AMP's requirements that it isn't feasible.

As for the framework support, AMP isn't a replacement or alternative solution to Bootstrap or other CSS front ends.  So I don't think it needs to be baked right into Bootstrap.  From my understanding anyway most CSS should still be available on AMP pages, which is what those frameworks offer first.  Their JavaScript features on the other hand are limited by AMP (carousels for example, but those have a native AMP alternative).

Hannes pointed out earlier that AMP is basically suggesting to folks a best practice that should have been followed already in terms of mobile optimization.  Any effort for that, with or without AMP, should continue.  If AMP takes off though and gains serious traction, and can start affecting SERP listings, then it is something Joomla needs to be ready for ahead of time.  Best case, we walk away having made needed improvements to the core platform unrelated to supporting AMP.

--
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[Niv Froehlich]

It seems to me that the biggest issue in combining Bootstrap and AMP (maintaining RWD) is the use of any custom JavaScript.

Bootstrap and AMP

See brief discussion at https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/17806


Assume no 'JavaScript'

Web Pages must assume no custom JavaScript, and rely on progressive enhancement.

(Truthfully, for the last 2 or 3 years I've just simply assumed all devices are JavaScript enabled - but now it's not the device - its the AMP spec's - now it seems we are back to graceful degradation / progressive enhancement - nonetheless, this seems really limiting). 

Is Google being 'High-Handed'?

Yes.  This is 'playing dirty' in my opinion.

Google is making provisions for their 'Google specific' JavaScript and technologies (i.e. the notoriously sluggish font-face), while blocking 3rd party JavaScript - the problem is, they control the SERPs and the SERPs will now punish people for using 3rd party JavaScript.

If you love jQuery, for example, it's questionable right now as to whether or not jQuery will be permissible as part of the AMP specs.

Excellent discussion on this and other concerns at http://www.kevinmarks.com/ampreaction-nojs.html

At about 29 min (see video down the page), Google was asked, "Are you going to advantage AMP pages in SERP?"

Google's answer was "No, but we will advantage 'faster-loading' pages."

But if you read between the lines, the only way to have rich-media pages (i.e. relying on JavaScript) is to use only Google's approved JavaScript, in a nutshell - use AMP or be disadvantaged in Google's SERPs.

Should Joomla Adopt AMP?

It's going to affect your rankings/positioning on Google's SERP, so yes.

I think that the front-end template from Joomla should be adapted to support AMP out-of-the-box, or in the alternate, an optional free extension similar to the Wordpress plugin - this would be a good move. Google's proposed implementation date is mid-2016.

Really, the way I see this is that any AMP implementation, in order to maintain rich-media RWD and also be AMP compliant would fall into the domain of Template developers (in particular, Template Framework Developers).

I am in the process of developing an online publication and ranking first or second (long-tail) on SERPs is going to be critical.

I'm currently using a JoomlArt Template (T3 Framework) - so now I have to address the issue of Joomla and AMP - but I'd naturally expect that feature to be managed at the Template Framework layer.


Additional Personal Sentiments about AMP

Anybody who uses a mobile device and is tired of waiting forever for pages to load is going to benefit from AMP and from Google laying down the law.

I could certainly get into a 'rant' about ethics (I feel that Google is indeed being very 'unethical' - they advantage themselves) - but what's the point?

They control the market, we follow suit - if you can't beat 'em, might as well join them.

N

[Niels Braczek]

Am 15.11.2015 um 20:21 schrieb Paul Orwig:

> I ask that Leo be removed from this list. Why would anyone want to join a
> community or remain in a community that tolerates so much disrespect?

Because the community is strong enough to live with that?

In times, where the Usenet was not occupied by Google, there was no
possibility to ban somebody. So we learned how to treat trolls:
Don't feed the troll.

So, if any of you dislike the *tone* of a post, you can politely make
the poster aware of that. Not more. If that does not help, *just don't
answer* to that post.

If you dislike the *message* of a post, live with it. Anybody has the
right to have his/her own oppinion. There's no need for you to like it.

Banning people is a method used by totalitary regimes and has no place
in an open source community.

Regards,
Niels

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[Bakual]

Banning is ihmo a valid act even in open source communities, but should be last resort for epople who repeatedly can't behave in the communication channel.

It's for sure not  something we will vote on. So asking in this group for someone to be banned is useless. if you have an issue with a specific person, try to solve it with the person directly and if that doesn't help contact someone from PLT directly. Don't take it to the public, that's the wrong approach for sure and only hurts the community.

[Michael Babker]

Assume no JavaScript comment - The way things look to me, AMP is geared primarily toward blog/publication style pages.  In the case of joomla.org, this would favor the release announcements as an example, but probably less something like the features page or the homepage itself.  Used in the right context, AMP can have its benefits, but it certainly isn't something that you can just make work for every type of page on the internet (using Akeeba Release System as another example, as its frontend is designed as a software repository and software downloads aren't practical or possible on non-desktop devices, AMP isn't appropriate for it).

Joomla adoption - It isn't as cut and dry as just adding AMP support to a template.  Given the spec and how Joomla functions with "normal" HTML today, there are still a lot of questions to answer.  Is it appropriate to render all modules on AMP pages too or only on "normal" HTML pages?

[Niv Froehlich]

Nice to be back on topic...

@Michael

Assume no JavaScript comment - The way things look to me, AMP is geared primarily toward blog/publication style pages.

We are still talking about a gazillion pages published every day, many of which rely on Google SERP rankings.  This presents a problem when relying on Bootstrap for RWD.

 Is it appropriate to render all modules on AMP pages too or only on "normal" HTML pages?

For the most part, AMP are "normal" HTML pages, at least in so much as RWD is (was?) concerned.  

For "normal" HTML pages, we were quite happy, via Bootstrap to

1) Build on a 'mobile-first' approach; and
2) Use progressive enhancement.

But it seems as though AMP just kicked Bootstrap in the balls on this approach.

At this stage, I think Joomla could adopt a similar approach to the Wordpress plugin to dynamically generate pages AMP pages and use those as the 'preferred' or 'canonical' address to solve the duplicate content issue.

Keep in mind that solving problems from an SEO Performance point-of-view will always be in the best interest of CMS.

Leave the rest to the Template / Template Framework developers.

N

[ssnobben]

Thanks Niv to move this topic back for a better understanding of implications of the short- and long term strategic importance for the whole Joomla community.  Again a very important decision that should be open to discuss to a l l in Joomla community? I have no idea about AMP yet so its good to start learning..thanks.

Pls "leaders" dont ban anyone whatever stupidity is written if its not going over the edge of personal attacks. Its just say something about your self if you cant respond in a "good" way and how you look into the world of indifferences and tolerance. As a leader you represent the Joomla community. We all have different skills,knowledge,personality and experience. And again discussions is on to many places in Joomla community and that creates a gap of information between Joomla community members. This is a problem.

I hope it will not be similar Google control like if you want to block ads in Chrome web browser with for example Ublock https://www.ublock.org/ and if you use/install it on Chrome, Google uninstall it for you automatically :) and how can you secure Google will not in future add some unwanted code to Joomla automatically when Joomla users update their AMP? What policies do we have for that?

My concern is about the SERP dominance that will discriminate web sites that will not have AMP technology. Soon will Google know and control everything we do, wish and also think. If you dont agree and follow Googles rules you are o u t....Its like a dictatorship but with economical power and influence in the digital world.

[Ronni Christiansen]

As long as people show respect and do not attack others personally there is noone banning anyone - but we can not allow some people to cause a toxic enviroment for our community any longer.

Anyone should be safe in taking part in debates without fear of personal attacks.

But lets use the new thread to debate those things - and lets keep the subject on this one :)

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[Niv Froehlich]

@ ssnobben

My concern is about the SERP dominance that will discriminate web sites that will not have AMP technology. Soon will Google know and control everything we do, wish and also think. If you dont agree and follow Googles rules you are o u t....Its like a dictatorship but with economical power and influence in the digital world.

I see in this statement, and agree, that there are several valid concerns, which can perhaps be categorized as the following

1.  How can a media-rich RWD Framework (such as Bootstrap) co-exist with AMP?
 
Take the most popular Search Engine (i.e. Google), the most popular front-end framework (i.e. Bootstrap), and the most popular CMSs (i.e. Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal) - and there is a broad need to ensure that all these technologies work well together.

Across the board there are mutual interests in ensuring that all these technologies integrate and build on each other - and can co-exist.

This would require cross-functional teams with everybody coordinated.

What steps are being taken to ensure that this happens?


2. Google is using a virtual monopoly to advantage itself?

As the current standard is written, the AMP specs favour Google's home grown technologies, while excluding others.

In particular, the exclusion of custom JavaScript is a grave concern, as it essentially takes anything that is reliant on jQuery and tosses it out the window.

Again here, we need to have to co-ordination between jQuery and AMP - and a willingness to have a specification which allows for competing technologies.

As Google is the dominant search engine, the respectability lies with them to make such provisions, but it is our responsibility as a broad open-source community (and esteemed open-source community) to demand such provisions.

Are we expressing our concerns to the appropriate teams at Google, in a unified voice as an open-source project?


3.  We need a clear understanding and Guidance from Google on how their search engine algorithms will respond to sites which are RWD / Responsive-Content (i.e. built fast for mobile, yet media-rich for high-bandwidth large display devices)

From my experience working for Microsoft/Bing, I can 100% affirm that 'human relevance' is the number one key to SERP results (in a nutshell, a search engine wants to return the 'most relevant' results).

If Google simply advantages web pages based on 'load speed' - it throws the human relevance equation 'out the window' and leads to poor quality SERPs (i.e. Is it better to get a page that loads fast vs. getting the content that better matches your search intent?  Hardly.)

Surely, when a user is on their desktop with a high-speed connection AMP can become irrelevant and even counter-productive, so how does Google differentiate SERPs for various devices and connections speeds?

If Google advantages AMP'd pages, how will Google ensure that the most relevant search results are returned for search engine users, given their specific devices and bandwidth?

What practices should we follow so that we can account for, but are not just solely focused on mobile?

-----

With respect to the above, and I'm sure questions that other may have,  I'd like to applaud both Jessica's efforts and Google's willingness to meet with Joomla! Project Team leaders.

Ultimately for us, having an understanding of AMP, RWD and incorporating SEO best-practices is paramount to the success of Joomla.

I would suggest that now that we are starting to have an idea of the challenges and implications of AMP, that we take advantage of Jessica's efforts and form a team within Joomla to liaison with Google to provide input and to get answers.

Remembering that Joomla! was the first, 'out-of-the-box' RWD open-source CMS,  I'd love to see this project maintain a leadership position.

Cheers,

N

PS

I hate the idea of 'duplicate' pages with canonical declarations, and hope, in the end, that this is not the 'proposed' solution (as it is currently for Wordpress) - the whole idea of RWD was 'one-design' that adapts and it seems that a strict adoption of AMP poses serious challenges to good RWD implementation, as opposed to, for example, a proper application of the principle of progressive-enhancement.  

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[Michael Babker]

1.  If AMP is tuning toward a content first and page speed approach, then the pages that are served under AMP format specifically are going to have less of those "media rich" features.  BBC and WordPress.com have some generic CSS styling to make their AMP pages fit in with their main site's theming, beyond that however their pages are content only (note you don't find the site navigation or any of the side content on the AMP pages).  You might need to rethink your approach on AMP, it seems like you're looking at how you might adapt your full site to be AMP compliant when the reality is that it really is only going to fit a subset of your pages.

2.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Hard to know their intentions without sitting in an office with them 24/7.  Yes, AMP in its current specification isn't welcoming to client technologies that are jQuery driven, but as I've pointed out a few times now I'm starting to believe that it isn't because Google wants to force everyone to use their technologies but rather I feel like AMP has a specific focus on certain types of content that are heavily text based (blog posts, news articles, etc.).  The more I become familiar with AMP, the more I get the impression that it is *NOT* a 100% replacement for a site's current responsive templates or structure.  If your pages are media rich and dependent on features unavailable in the AMP platform, don't support AMP for those pages.  Even WordPress.com doesn't (see https://vip.wordpress.com/our-services/amp/).

3.  We know full well that Google isn't going to just disclose algorithm data, so in typical industry fashion everyone will be playing catch up when they make a major algorithm change.  With any luck, the generalized changes will go toward favoring page speed without making AMP a dominating factor or replacing the human relevancy factor.  Only time can tell there.

[Niv Froehlich]

1.  If AMP is tuning toward a content first and page speed approach, then the pages that are served under AMP format specifically are going to have less of those "media rich" features.  BBC and WordPress.com have some generic CSS styling to make their AMP pages fit in with their main site's theming, beyond that however their pages are content only (note you don't find the site navigation or any of the side content on the AMP pages).  You might need to rethink your approach on AMP, it seems like you're looking at how you might adapt your full site to be AMP compliant when the reality is that it really is only going to fit a subset of your pages.

Search Engine Algorithms are already tuned to 'content first.'  This is different.  Google is tuning it's algorithms towards 'speed first,' or more accurately, trying to marry the two.  

Importantly, what you refer to as a 'subset' of pages is, in reality, most pages that published to the web these days (which consists of blog posts, articles, etc).

In the respect, many of us are talking about the majority of our site's pages, and in doing so, we are already considering

1. Content first;
2. Mobile first;
3. Performance Optimization;
4. Progressive Enhancement; and
   
5. RWD

All within the context of SERP rankings.

 
There is also such a thing as User Experience - which entails delivering the right content for the right bandwidth and device - and it is here were AMP appears to set the web backwards.

2.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Hard to know their intentions without sitting in an office with them 24/7.  Yes, AMP in its current specification isn't welcoming to client technologies that are jQuery driven, but as I've pointed out a few times now I'm starting to believe that it isn't because Google wants to force everyone to use their technologies but rather I feel like AMP has a specific focus on certain types of content that are heavily text based (blog posts, news articles, etc.).  The more I become familiar with AMP, the more I get the impression that it is *NOT* a 100% replacement for a site's current responsive templates or structure.  If your pages are media rich and dependent on features unavailable in the AMP platform, don't support AMP for those pages.  Even WordPress.com doesn't (see https://vip.wordpress.com/our-services/amp/).

Actually it's easy to know Google's intentions from their specifications (I would go so far as to say they are 'one and the same' (Google's intentions are reflected in their specifications)).

 

3.  We know full well that Google isn't going to just disclose algorithm data, so in typical industry fashion everyone will be playing catch up when they make a major algorithm change.  With any luck, the generalized changes will go toward favoring page speed without making AMP a dominating factor or replacing the human relevancy factor.  Only time can tell there.

I don't agree.   Certainly Google's specific 'algorithms' remain a 'secret sauce,' and further, they change/adjust their algorithms about 500 times a year.

However, Google has always been dedicated to providing very good guidance, and it is this guidance we should be seeking.

We have a mutual interest in asking pertinent questions so that Google can provide pertinent answers.

What I would suggest is that we work together to provide a series of questions/concerns for Jessica (whom I assume from this thread is meeting with Google AMP Project Team) so that Jessica can begin to address those with Google on behalf of the Joomla Project.

To facilitate this, we can certainly develop a team of 'in-house' experts on AMP - the specifications themselves are not complex - what's unclear is simply a set of guidelines or best-practices for implementation into RWD Frameworks (and CMS which rely on such Frameworks).

Essentially, if we have an opportunity to interface with the AMP Project Team, then why not take full advantage of it?

In short, let's begin with and itemized list of "when it comes to AMP and Joomla, what are the questions that we should be asking?" and take it from there.

N

[Niv Froehlich]

BTW - See https://www.ampproject.org/faq/ (AMP Project FAQ page)

I filled out the contact form as an 'Interested Joomla! Community Member' to get updates on the project.

I think that any questions for the AMP Team, however, should be consolidated here and directed to the AMP Project team by a designated Joomla Leadership person.

I think at this point, I suggest that we give Jessica a chance to meet with the AMP team as she indicated and hopefully there will be an avenue for us to submit our questions through her.

This has been a great discussion so far so thank you.

N

[Michael Babker]

I was on the call with Google last week, along with Jess and George.  Most of what was discussed was at the technical level, basically the feasibility of including AMP support (via a plugin or direct in core) and what types of changes would be necessary to make it work.

That discussion and the one being had here about the implementation details are two different things completely, the one being had here not something I have any detail on beyond the specification and the live examples I've seen.  As written, I still think the AMP spec puts the utmost importance on the content and the media rich features are pushed to the side.  I don't think AMP is a full out replacement for existing mobile practices but in looking at supporting it it's going to force you to look at your application and extension layer code and identify issues that need to be addressed to be more mobile, resource, and speed friendly.  Safari on iOS has a Reader Mode that removes all the styling and whatnot and just leaves the primary inline content; that's what I compare AMP to with a bit more styling possibilities.  I think if I start seeing demonstrations that turn AMP pages into full out AMP sites, I'd be more concerned about the lack of features in the current spec, but as long as everything points to optimizing a single displayed page and removes all the outlying "distractions", pushing for full jQuery support isn't something I'm personally interested in yet.

[George Wilson]

FWIW on the call with google when we discussed it as an alternative to HTML output they didn't correct us in any way. Furthermore the specification also states that you MUST contain a canonical link that points to the regular HTML version https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/spec/amp-html-format.md#required-markup So I think it's pretty clear that AMP is something to have in combination with regular HTML not a replacement (in my view anyhow). And I think if google felt otherwise they'd have corrected us pretty quickly. I'm going to write up a blog post to publish on dev.j.org that will sum up our meeting (it was only a 30 minute introduction meeting so there isn't anything too significant at this point - but more for the sake of transparency).

Kind Regards,

George

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[Niv Froehlich]

@ Michael
 

pushing for full jQuery support isn't something I'm personally interested in yet.

This is okay if, and only if, AMP pages can co-exist with a conventional (e.g. Bootstrap RWD) page, otherwise, what we are saying, essentially, is that we are ditching rich-media, and with it, reliance on most Bootstrap components.

[Niv Froehlich]

@ George

Thanks!  Exactly the info I was looking for.

contain a <link rel="canonical" href="$SOME_URL" /> tag inside their head that points to the regular HTML version of the AMP HTML document or to itself if no such HTML version exists. 

That answers a whole bunch of questions!

@ Michael

Further to the above, since it appears that an AMP page can co-exist with a conventional HTML page, then I would agree.

Cheers,

N

[Jessica Dunbar]

Hi Everyone

Here are some notes from the Google AMP project. 

https://volunteer.joomla.org/reports/143-amp-introduction-meeting-november-13-2015 

[Jessica Dunbar]

I think at this point, I suggest that we give Jessica a chance to meet with the AMP team as she indicated and hopefully there will be an avenue for us to submit our questions through her.

It would be great if you can gather a list of questions. They are really interested how they can make their dev materials be more clear about any concerns. Any and all suggestions are welcome. 

[brian teeman]

what does noop mean?

[Niv Froehlich]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noop

--

[Niv Froehlich]

@Jessica
 

I think at this point, I suggest that we give Jessica a chance to meet with the AMP team as she indicated and hopefully there will be an avenue for us to submit our questions through her.

It would be great if you can gather a list of questions. They are really interested how they can make their dev materials be more clear about any concerns. Any and all suggestions are welcome. 

First of all thank you!

Can we post our questions/suggestions to this thread and have those forwarded by you to the AMP liaison at Google?

Cheers,

N

[Michael Babker]

In the context we were talking basically making JControllerLegacy not throw an Exception if an extension doesn't offer a view class for the AMP format if we go the new JDocument class route.  Right now if a view.*.php file doesn't exist for a given format Joomla aborts the cycle.

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[Niv Froehlich]

@Michael - you'll have to forgive me - the technical implementation when it comes to coding changes to the Joomla core are above my coding skill-level.

However, some of the questions I have that are important/good to know, just as examples, are

1) Which SERPs will AMP pages apply to/appear in?  (i.e. Google has different SERPs for mobile and desktops)

Here's an article, albeit dated, (but good for example purposes)

16 Differences Between Google Mobile & Desktop Search Results In 2012

2) How will AMP compliant pages be shown in the SERPs?

Google uses Carousels (or other alternative display formats) in their SERPs

For example see Google Carousel and the SERPs

Will Google be taking a similar approach for AMP pages? (A carousel or 'pack' at the top of the SERP)

How will AMP pages be denoted in SERPs? (i.e. will there be an icon in the SERP indicating that a page is an AMP page?)


3)  If AMP pages are considered the authoritative page, will a link to the 'desktop' or 'media-rich' page be indexed along-side the AMP link?

etc...

4) Should AMP pages be included in Google sitemaps?  If yes, how?


While these might not be the 'exact' questions, it gives an idea as to some of the information that would be great to get clarification on.

Once finalized, these questions should be directed towards Google - as Jessica mentioned they are looking for ways to improve their documentation (and we should have some as well) - and currently there is no authoritative information available on the above.

--------------

As for Joomla! Project discussions....

How does this affect the Joomla! Roadmap?

I believe that, ultimately, the Joomla! PLT should give some guidance to template and extension developers, so interim implementation and longer-term implementation best-practices and goals ought to be discussed.

For example, the current "baked-in" version of Bootstrap (2.x) for Joomla 3.x took a 'graceful degradation approach, while Bootstrap 3.x makes attempts to take a 'mobile-first' progressive enhancement.

If we look at the trends, given that the ability to rank high on SERPs is fundamental to the success of any CMS, Joomla might consider an "AMP" first approach to development.

So for example, the default front-end template for Joomla! 4.x may very well be a fully AMP compliant template, which then progressively enhances to a more robust RWD framework (i.e. latest flavour of Bootstrap).

How does this affect the current Joomla Roadmap and what modifications can and should be made?

----

I'm going to spend a little time this evening and see what I can put together.

I suppose a workspace (i.e. shared Google Doc?) would be helpful - anybody from Leadership care to set that up and invite persons who may wish to be involved with edit permissions?

If there is another practice you follow/suggset - please advise.

Cheers,

N

[Niels Braczek]

Am 17.11.2015 um 03:45 schrieb Niv Froehlich:

> So for example, the default front-end template for Joomla! 4.x may very
> well be a fully AMP compliant template, which then progressively enhances
> to a more robust RWD framework (i.e. latest flavour of Bootstrap).

Joomla 4 will support different renderers, which are selected depending
on a combination of the HTTP Accept: header and configuration settings.
Technically there is no problem to provide an AMP renderer. Or an
AngularJS2 renderer. Or whatever you might want. So regarding Joomla 4,
there is no need to make any decision about including AMP to the core,
since the core will be channel (and thus output format) agnostic. The
decision to be made is whether we want to ship an AMP renderer with
Joomla 4 (and with which minor version of J4), or if we want to leave
that to third party developers.

[Michael Babker]

And this matters why?  George Wilson uses it too for his personal blog, my personal blog is a Joomla Framework hybrid application, and my employer primarily uses WordPress for public facing websites.  Right tool for the right job (or to scratch a creative itch).

On Monday, November 16, 2015, Robert G Mears <plai...@gninc.ca> wrote:

Most curious.

The lead negotiator here -- Jessica Dunbar -- has  a WordPress website.

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[Niv Froehlich]

@Robert
 

Most curious.

The lead negotiator here -- Jessica Dunbar -- has  a WordPress website.

And I'm a "Pastafarian" who worships the "Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM)" (Google it...really, google it), and as such, I can tell you that Jessica will be punished by the FSM in the after-life for such a horrible indiscretion. 

Back to the topic...

@ Niels

Joomla 4 will support different renderers, which are selected depending
on a combination of the HTTP Accept: header and configuration settings.
Technically there is no problem to provide an AMP renderer. Or an
AngularJS2 renderer. Or whatever you might want. So regarding Joomla 4,
there is no need to make any decision about including AMP to the core,
since the core will be channel (and thus output format) agnostic. The
decision to be made is whether we want to ship an AMP renderer with
Joomla 4 (and with which minor version of J4), or if we want to leave
that to third party developers.

The decision that does need to be made is how to make Joomla! render and return pages as blazingly fast as possible.

Remember:

1) The whole purpose of AMP is to make pages render as fast as possible;

2) Speed will affect Google SERP rankings.

So 'speed is everything.'

I think there is a solid argument that the goals for Joomla 4.x should be to render and return AMP compliant pages and to do so as quickly as possible.

[Niv Froehlich]

@ Robert - if you were insulted, then please accept my apologies - it was not my intention to insult anyone, but simply to add a gist of humour and get the thread back on track.

Briefly, I don't see Wordpress as 'competition' - but I understand and sympathize with your concern.

In that light, if you wish to have a discussion on the issue of Joomla Leadership people who use Wordpress (and the ethics of such actions), then I would politely ask that you start a dedicated thread for that topic (I promise you that I will participate with vigour in that discussion).

Cheers,

N

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Robert G Mears <plai...@gninc.ca> wrote:

@Niv

That is truly insulting.

[brian teeman]

No but you can say a completely irrelevant personal attack that has no place in this topic or any other post.

Your comment that AMP is proprietary us false.

Your comment that wordpress is leading this is false.

[Robert G Mears]

@Brian

I have no idea what your first comment means.

AMP is developed by a proprietary source.

I did not say that WordPress is leading this. It has been suggested by many others in this thread that WordPress is already doing this, with the implication that Joomla needs to follow suit.

 @Niv

This "Google" Group is full of references to WordPress being the competition.

[Michael Babker]

WordPress is actually how I learned about AMP, because I personally follow several OSS platforms on Twitter and it's one of the main ways that I keep up with happenings in the open source world in general.  And yes, I've pointed to their .com platform a few times because they have an in development plugin for WordPress and have a live demonstration of it on their site.  And I've said somewhere that AMP is something we need to be looking at because if it takes off and WP is supporting it while Joomla is still scratching its head about how to implement it, then that's going to be another nail in the coffin for Joomla.

Full disclosure since suddenly it's an issue to use non-Joomla technologies if you are a leadership team member, badge wearer, or honorary loud mouth in the Joomla community.  I use Joomla, my employer's company uses WordPress, Symfony, Doctrine, Drupal, Laravel, and various community contributions to those platforms or applications built on them, and distributes a FOSS Symfony based application; and I have personally contributed to at least three open source projects in the last two months that would never integrate into Joomla.  This is just in the PHP ecosystem.  I advocate for the use of all of those platforms when the time is right; I will not be convinced that Joomla is the One Right Way(TM) and I don't believe that leadership in any of those communities, or Joomla, should be forced to only use the software from the community they represent.

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[Niv Froehlich]

+1
 

@Niv

This "Google" Group is full of references to WordPress being the competition.

IMHO, this is off topic for this thread, but I'll respond, and attempt to get this back on topic.

1) Personally, and in the spirit of open-source, I've always found that odd.  "Friendly competition," okay - that I can accept.  Anybody who is in open-source, IMHO, is a friend, not a foe.

2) I wish our open-source brothers and sisters in Wordpress all the best in their endeavours and would gladly contribute to their project.  If Wordpress can take something from the Joomla project to make their platform or community better, then I hope they do.

3) People should be free to use whatever software they wish.  We're not in the business of policing what software people use for their own personal or business software. Not to mention that if we banish Wordpress users from Joomla! Leadership positions - there would probably be nobody left...

4) With respect to point 2 above, I've personally never had the goal of "making 'Joomla' better than 'Wordpress.'"  Rather, I'd like to help make Joomla, and the community to the best that 'Joomla' and the 'Joomla Community' can be.  In this context, any advancement or collaboration with Wordpress only helps to achieve that goal.

Which brings us back to AMP.

The decision to integrate AMP into Joomla is not based on what Wordpress is doing, but (for the reasons outlined above), making Joomla as good as possible.

It is precisely for that reason that implementation of AMP makes sense for Joomla - in that achieving the best possible rankings on SERPs is quite often the number one 'business requirement' when it comes to using a CMS.

In fact, we are advantaged that Wordpress has already begun to address the issue of incorporating AMP - so we can evaluate their approach, learn, adopt and improve to make Joomla better.

Conversely, whatever your concern about Google (i.e. I've expressed those concerns in that Google advantage themselves), the failure to adopt AMP might be detrimental to the Joomla project.

Viva la Wordpress!!!

Cheers,

N

[Niv Froehlich]

Michael's (and a few others') recent comments make me feel like I am wasting my time here. 

Other than the fact that, personally, I wish you would have started another thread, I think your viewpoint, and that we discuss these matters, is important - we just disagree.

 All things considered, it seems to me that Joomla PLT should, at the least, be using Joomla for their solo websites. Brand loyalty and all of that ...

An excellent point, and that is why this topic is worthy of it's own thread (and should not be jumbled in with a discussion on whether or not to adopt AMP).

Cheers,

N

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Robert G Mears <plai...@gninc.ca> wrote:

I use Joomla exclusively. I have tried WordPress and because my websites use a lot of images found it lacking. I am not employed by a third-party that uses or develops websites with other CMSs.

I am a freelance designer. I adapt CSS to fit my designs. I do not write php code. I am currently moving over to Linux and was planning on setting up a distribution of Joomla so that I could make pull requests on GitHub with respects to the Admin and Protostar templates. And I have written and posted a website outlining how to get the most out of Joomla. However, this and a couple of other threads on this proprietary third-party hosted Group combined with Michael's (and a few others') recent comments make me feel like I am wasting my time here.

All things considered, it seems to me that Joomla PLT should, at the least, be using Joomla for their solo websites. Brand loyalty and all of that ...

[Niv Froehlich]

Much appreciated!

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Robert G Mears <plai...@gninc.ca> wrote:

Okay. New thread.

[Jim Holloman]

> Personally I  don't see any benefit with Google AMP

Apparently, Facebook and Apple already have it's versions of AMP.

Here are some reference and resource Pages for Google (or should I say Alphabet) AMP:

Google AMP is good for mobile web users – but what about publishers?
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/11/google-amp-facebook-instant-articles-apple-news

What CMOs Need to Know About Google’s AMP Project:
http://marketingland.com/cmos-need-know-googles-amp-project-147288

Google’s AMP project: what will be the impact on publishers?:
http://searchenginewatch.com/sew/opinion/2430844/google-s-amp-project-what-will-be-the-impact-on-publishers

Get Started with AMP HTML:
https://www.ampproject.org/

Introducing the Accelerated Mobile Pages Project, for a faster, open mobile web
https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/10/introducing-accelerated-mobile-pages.html

Google announces AMP, a much faster way to load news articles on smartphones:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11907334/google-launches-AMP-a-tool-to-speed-up-the-mobile-experience.html

###

[Niels Braczek]

Am 17.11.2015 um 03:52 schrieb Robert G Mears:

> The lead negotiator here -- Jessica Dunbar <http://jessicadunbar.com/> --
> has a WordPress website.

a) So what?

b) That's relevant to this thread, because ...?

[Niv Froehlich]

@ Jim - thanks these are great resources.

We should really be compiling these into a collaborative doc/workspace.

When somebody from PLT has a moment, can you kindly set one up for Joomla!/AMP so that I can add these links, my questions and my notes as well?

Thanks,

N

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[Bakual]

Locked that new thread because it's completely nonsense and even offtopic to the group here.
And please keep this thread here on topic. It's about AMP.

And just for the record, it's not only Jessica who is trigger happy with the banning button at the moment.

Your last few posts were just close to get you temporary banned. Please take this as a warning to behave in this group.

Am Dienstag, 17. November 2015 06:55:40 UTC+1 schrieb Robert G Mears:

Okay. New thread.

[Bakual]

Because it is completely offtopic and irrelevant for this group and this topic what platform someone uses.
It's exactly what defines a troll.

Am Dienstag, 17. November 2015 14:51:26 UTC+1 schrieb Robert G Mears:

And just for the record, it's not only Jessica who is trigger happy with the banning button at the moment.

Your last few posts were just close to get you temporary banned. Please take this as a warning to behave in this group.

Why?

[Niv Froehlich]

AMP Menus/Navigation?

Anyone find any guidance on how AMP pages handle menus?

Nothing is listed in the specs or extensions (https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/tree/master/extensions).

Also the sample pages don't include menus for navigation.

I don't imagine there would be 'no navigation' for large AMPed web site - and keeping performance optimization in mind, it's going to be interesting how this is (or could be) handled.

N

--

[Niv Froehlich]

If the end result is not a faster page load, why should Joomla adopt AMP?

This is a tricky one, because AMP is designed to take advantage of Google caching features - so I'm not sure exactly how one would compare 'apples to apples.'

Consider that in the end, it's all about page speed.  If Joomla adopts AMP

a) If the end result is a faster page load, the page ranks higher in SERPs;

b) If the end result is a slower page load, the page ranks lower. (This could happen - depending on the implementation, esp. for pages which require some dynamically generated content).

That means that the Joomla generated AMP page has a slower page load (taking page generation into account), then it appears that the adoption of AMP would 'disadvantage' visitors and punish web site owners.  

In the case of an overall slower page load, why would Joomla adopt AMP?

in other words, adoption of AMP would have to be based on the assumption that the implementation will result in faster page output and load.

Is this a given?

Further Info:

Google has stated that it will not 'advantage' AMP pages per se, but rather speed of page load.

N

[Hannes Papenberg]

I'm really wondering why you are bringing in the google caching in here
(again). AMP is NOT based on any google service.

AMP aims to reduce the number of assets to be loaded per page and reduce
the amount of computation necessary to display the page in the end. That
means:
- Less assets = less connections to the server = less connection overhead
- No Javascript allows to simply not even invoke the JS compiler of the
browser
- Defined image (or iframe) sizes = no need to re-render the page after
the image has loaded
- No directly embedded ads = No further delays by additional connections

All that has nothing to do with any google service. And it will make
almost any website faster than right now. The question is not, if the
website of the pidgeon fancier association of New Brunswick loads and
renders as fast as the homepage of google.com, but if the AMP page loads
and renders faster than the normal website and if you stick to the rules
of AMP, that will always be the case. But then again, these rules are
something that you should already be doing and as I said earlier, AMP is
pushing to far for my taste. They are requiring you to basically provide
again a different website for different devices and the hard rules of
AMP will (again) create tensions between marketing and the tech-guys for
any website that looks at this. Reducing the number of tracker scripts
to one tracking pixel, reducing the number of ads and reducing the
amount of content besides the main content, is against what most
marketing people have been working for in the last few years.

AMP is pushing in the right direction, but is itself not the answer to
the problem.

Hannes

Am 18.11.2015 um 03:09 schrieb Niv Froehlich:
> _If the end result is not a faster page load, why should Joomla adopt
> AMP?_

>
> This is a tricky one, because AMP is designed to take advantage of
> Google caching features - so I'm not sure exactly how one would
> compare 'apples to apples.'
>
> Consider that in the end, it's all about page speed. If Joomla adopts AMP
>
> a) If the end result is a faster page load, the page ranks higher in
> SERPs;
>
> b) If the end result is a slower page load, the page ranks lower.
> (This could happen - depending on the implementation, esp. for pages
> which require some dynamically generated content).
>
> That means that the Joomla generated AMP page has a slower page load
> (taking page generation into account), then it appears that the
> adoption of AMP would 'disadvantage' visitors and punish web site owners.
>
> In the case of an overall slower page load, why would Joomla adopt AMP?
>
> in other words, adoption of AMP would have to be based on the
> assumption that the implementation will result in faster page output
> and load.
>
> Is this a given?
>

> _Further Info_:
>
> Google has stated that it will not 'advantage' AMP pages /per se, /but

> rather speed of page load.
>
> N
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Niv Froehlich <nivs...@gmail.com

> <mailto:nivs...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> *_AMP Menus/Navigation_*?

>
> Anyone find any guidance on how AMP pages handle menus?
>
> Nothing is listed in the specs or extensions
> (https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/tree/master/extensions).
>
> Also the sample pages don't include menus for navigation.
>
> I don't imagine there would be 'no navigation' for large AMPed web
> site - and keeping performance optimization in mind, it's going to
> be interesting how this is (or could be) handled.
>
> N
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch
> <mailto:werbe...@bakual.ch>> wrote:
>
> Because it is completely offtopic and irrelevant for this
> group and this topic what platform someone uses.
> It's exactly what defines a troll

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll>.

>
>
> Am Dienstag, 17. November 2015 14:51:26 UTC+1 schrieb Robert G
> Mears:
>
>
> And just for the record, it's not only Jessica who is
> trigger happy with the banning button at the moment.
> Your last few posts were just close to get you
> temporary banned. Please take this as a warning to
> behave in this group.
>
>
> Why?
>
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