and please next as user before making major changes(run a poll)
btw According to this Strategy can we make core changes to Joomla or we still have to wait until 4.0 starts?
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Please pardon any errors, this message was sent from my iPhone.
The long and short of it is that we've listened to the concerns addressed by the community and we're acting on them because we care about the long term stability of the project.We will provide an easy to understand overview of the development goals and strategies within the week, as well as compile a FAQ with answers to pertinent questions.
On Saturday, April 5, 2014, Tim Plummer <tjpl...@gmail.com> wrote:
How does the Joomla 3.4 announcement and development strategy change affect Joomla 2.5 end of life? When should we encourage users to migrate their sites from 2.5 to 3.x?--
With the short term/long term strategy it was easy to explain, the long term release would be used by most people, with the short term release for early adopters and those that really need the new features but were willing to put up with a little bit of pain as bugs were ironed out and new features introduced etc. Most users with existing Joomla 2.5.x websites would wait for the next long term release Joomla 3.5 in September 2014 before upgrading.
So should we be encouraging Joomla 2.5 users to migrate once 3.3 is released, wait for 3.4, or wait for 3.5?
At what point in the next Joomla series 4.x does it switch from early adopters to a stable release that the average 3.x user will want to migrate to?
regards
Tim
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The long and short of it is that we've listened to the concerns addressed by the community and we're acting on them because we care about the long term stability of the project.We will provide an easy to understand overview of the development goals and strategies within the week, as well as compile a FAQ with answers to pertinent questions.
On Saturday, April 5, 2014, Tim Plummer <tjpl...@gmail.com> wrote:
How does the Joomla 3.4 announcement and development strategy change affect Joomla 2.5 end of life? When should we encourage users to migrate their sites from 2.5 to 3.x?--
With the short term/long term strategy it was easy to explain, the long term release would be used by most people, with the short term release for early adopters and those that really need the new features but were willing to put up with a little bit of pain as bugs were ironed out and new features introduced etc. Most users with existing Joomla 2.5.x websites would wait for the next long term release Joomla 3.5 in September 2014 before upgrading.
So should we be encouraging Joomla 2.5 users to migrate once 3.3 is released, wait for 3.4, or wait for 3.5?
At what point in the next Joomla series 4.x does it switch from early adopters to a stable release that the average 3.x user will want to migrate to?
regards
Tim
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A clear statement telling for at least how many years 2.x (e.g. will there be a 2.6.0 ?) and 3.x will be security maintained, and when is 2.x and 3.x end of life currently planed (for 3.x the longer the better imho) could help.
> <mailto:joomla-dev-cms+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.
This release of the CMS is part of a refined development and release strategy that the PLT has been finalizing since the 2013 Joomla! World Conference and will be the first under these strategies.
Without getting too far into the politics and desireability, how practical would it be to have a "2.5 Legacy Plug-In" that would make all 2.5 sites one-click upgradeable to 3.x?
Then, once implemented, what about a process that tags each release as immediately STS, but with the passage of time, testing, and numerous STS installations and patches (say 90-120 days later) the highest point version of that minor release elevates to LTS status and shows up for one-click install? In this way we approach becoming a more perpetually self-maintaining installation.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Eddie" <mamb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 7, 2014 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: [jcms] So every release is LTS, even 3.2 or its starts with 3.4?
On 7 April 2014 18:01, Beat <> wrote:
Each incompatible Joomla major version has left masses of sites behind.
That's a net loss in Joomla user base.
I think this is important because we can delay Joomla 4.0, for
example, to a point in the future when we actually need it, rather
than saying "4.0 with breaking changes must happen on such and such a
date".
I think the new strategy will invigorate development and provide a
greater incentive for users to make the migration to 3.x. It's going
to be around for a while longer than expected :)
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
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I'm trying to understand this from a bit of a different angle (i.e. how we would advise 'non-technical clients' who also are not as familiar with the Joomla! ways of doing things as we are).
1. Major release versions (i.e. 3.x) are supported for a minimum of two years by the Joomla! Project.
2. During the life-cycle of 3.x there will be upgrades (including bug patches, security patches, and new features). Upgrades will *not* require site migrations or major capital expenditures. However, Site Owners are expected to upgrade as release versions became available, in particular, to keep their Joomla! CMS core more secure.
3. Extension developers are expected to keep their code current, but from time to time there may be an issue with and Joomla! Core update and a particular extension. The attempt of the Joomla! Project is to minimize these occurrences. These occurrences can only be handled on a case-by-case basis as they arise. It is not possible (not practical?) to predict the cost, time, effort or feasibility to correct possible unforeseen bugs with non-compliant extensions which may be in use in the site's current version.
[NOTE TO PLT: IMHO ****Right here ^ is where we might be giving clients a bit of a 'queasy feeling' (they tend to like 'predictability' in an unpredictable world).]
4. Joomla! CMS core support is guaranteed by the Joomla! project for a minimum of 2 yrs from the last version release date. If a new version in that series (i.e. 3.3 is superseded by 3.4), site owners are expected to upgrade and in turn, benefit from the 2 yrs minimum of guaranteed support for that version.
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My original thought was to upgrade at 2013 to series 2, and than at 2015 to series 4. for my site it would have been 3.5 years between 1.5 to 2.5, 2 years between 2.5 to series 4, and than steady with series 4 for at least 3-4 more years.
However, with this change I face a problem, as I could upgrade in 2015 to series 3, which will than EOL at 2017 and I wlll have to upgrade my site every 2 years = not good.
I'm sure I'm not the only one at this situation. A lot of other ppl upgrade to 2.5 within the last year or so - actually that's the recommendation on the joomla site for existing "stable" sites.
So those of us lose from this...
What a possible solution would be to offer a "grace/fade-out" period for older joomla series - Minimal support for 2 years after development EOL, which only provides security & critcal updates, access to support forums and downloads, and available extension directory.
During this period the old version will not be recommended to new / migrating users, and will not get new development.
This will greatly help users in my situation, and will make joomla a more friendly CMS.
Regards,
Daniel
Which is exactly what is happening. The EOL timer does not start with the release of x.0, but with the release of the last minor release in that series. So expect 3.x to get maybe 3-4 years of active development and then another 2 years of support. I would expect that those that used 3.0.0 right away can stay around 5 years on the 3.x series before they have to upgrade to a newer series.
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I wlll have to upgrade my site every 2 years = not good.
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So every release is LTS, even 3.2 or its starts with 3.4?
and please next as user before making major changes(run a poll)
btw According to this Strategy can we make core changes to Joomla or we still have to wait until 4.0 starts?
Thanks svatopluk. This is good feedback that I'm sure will be taken into consideration.
Best,
Matt Thomas
203.632.9322
http://betweenbrain.com/
Sent from mobile. Please pardon any typos or brevity.
Thanks a lot for your answer. Maybe it is not evident from the context - I know what is the proper "upgrading/migration" procedure. I think it is important to share this idea via official statement with community of end users. That's all.
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At what point do we consider a Joomla! release to be 'production ready/public facing?'
Will the new strategy include some official guidance or consensus from the PLT as to when we 'officially' cross the line from an 'early adopter' version to a 'production ready' version?
--
What would you 'measure' in order to establish where the line is? And
is that measurement going to apply to all sites and situations
equally?
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That 60 days is the time for beta & release candidates.
Maintainers have to be strict to avoid backward compatibility issues and developers have to get used to test beta & release candidates.
The system is quite simple and it works for WordPress.
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
So help me understand. Doesn't that lead to a situation where you have
3.5, 3.7 and 3.11 all LTS, all needing simultaneous bug fixes? If so,
do we have the resources to do that?
That 60 days is the time for beta & release candidates.
And now I'm completely confused. What do you want? You say you want an
LTS. Now you say you don't want 50 versions with some special versions
and others not and versions to use and those not to use.
The story is simple: As the owner of a site running with Joomla, always use the latest version of a major series. Period.
Q: Will 3.5 be the LTS release for the 3.x series?
A: No. The strategies have been modified to not lock in a specific release as the LTS release of a series. Under the revised strategy, unless superseded with a newer minor release, there will be at least two years of support for the last minor release of a series. For example, if 3.4 were to be the LTS release of the 3.x series, it would be supported for at least two years after its release.
- MAJOR version when you make incompatible API changes,
- MINOR version when you add functionality in a backwards-compatible manner, and
- PATCH version when you make backwards-compatible bug fixes.
Additional labels for pre-release and build metadata are available as extensions to the MAJOR.MINOR.PATCH format.
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Regards,
Andrew Eddie
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You are touching on how inapt the terminology has become because there are many connotations and significances to 'LTS'.
You are touching on how inapt the terminology has become because there are many connotations and significances to 'LTS'.
Concerning the terms LTS/STS - they should be dropped due to all the confusion they cause and will continue to cause.
Please pardon any errors, this message was sent from my iPhone.
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: So every release is LTS, even 3.2 or its starts with 3.4?
On 18 April 2014 06:33, G.D. Speer <gsp...@cortech.org> wrote:
May I propose another approach ...
PLT already bends over backward to make every release Stable and will
continue to do so. The issue is one of production hardening the new code in
any release.
I think it would be better that the community bends backwards to make
every release Stable and will continue to do so.
LTS
After at least 60 days have passed and PLT considers a release to be
production hardened and extension developers have not raised issues, an STS
release is retagged as an LTS release, and at that point appears available
for 1-click for those that choose to be on the LTS track.
So help me understand. Doesn't that lead to a situation where you have
3.5, 3.7 and 3.11 all LTS, all needing simultaneous bug fixes? If so,
do we have the resources to do that?
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
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Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: So every release is LTS, even 3.2 or its starts with 3.4?
On 18 April 2014 06:33, G.D. Speer <gsp...@cortech.org> wrote:
May I propose another approach ...
PLT already bends over backward to make every release Stable and will
continue to do so. The issue is one of production hardening the new code in
any release.
I think it would be better that the community bends backwards to make
every release Stable and will continue to do so.
LTS
After at least 60 days have passed and PLT considers a release to be
production hardened and extension developers have not raised issues, an STS
release is retagged as an LTS release, and at that point appears available
for 1-click for those that choose to be on the LTS track.
So help me understand. Doesn't that lead to a situation where you have
3.5, 3.7 and 3.11 all LTS, all needing simultaneous bug fixes? If so,
do we have the resources to do that?
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
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As of June 11, 2014
Current Production Release: Joomla! 3.4.0 is the current Production Release and all sites using Joomla! 3 are recommended to update to Joomla! 3.4.0 at this time.
End of Support (EOS): Joomla! 3 EOS is scheduled for June 10, 2016*
*End of Support for Joomla! 3 may be extended at the discretion of the Joomla! Project Production Leadership Team
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
As of June 11, 2014
Current Production Release: Joomla! 3.4.0 is the current Production Release and all sites using Joomla! 3 are recommended to update to Joomla! 3.4.0 at this time.
End of Support (EOS): Joomla! 3 EOS has been extended to September 24, 2016*
*End of Support for Joomla! 3 may be further extended at the discretion of the Joomla! Project Production Leadership Team
I think people will confuse EOS with EOL. I think you'd be better off
just having a fine-print link called "When does support end for Joomla
3" which goes to an in-depth article that is summarized simply as "it
depends".
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
Regards,
Andrew Eddie
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Just looking for dates ......
2) When is Joomla 3.x no longer suported (i.e. EoL)
Just looking for dates ......
----- Original Message -----From: Andrew Eddie
That's a precise developers answer that is misleading, I suggest:
At this time the current Joomla! 3.0 series is supported at least through 15 June 2016 and possibly longer.
Each future release in the 3.x series will extend that support period to an additional two years from the release date.
As future releases are planned that would extend support, that news will be reported at ....
At this time the current Joomla! 3.0 series is supported at least through 15 June 2016 and possibly longer.
If you would like more details, the support cycle and release strategy is officially defined by the Joomla! Project Leadership at http://developer.joomla.org/cms/development-strategy.html
Omar - YES!The reference chart at http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle is a great example of EOL 'at a glance' and, IMHO, it would be great to have such a chart, at the top of a 'downloads' web page, with drill-down info.
This way, those who are new to Joomla! (or non-technical) can understand much more quickly.
The other question I have is our use of the versioning numbering system:
This question is based on the following understanding
a) We are essentially using Semantic Versioning (http://semver.org/) which defines MAJOR.MINOR.PATCH (correct/incorrect?)
b) However, according to Semantic Versioning, a MAJOR update involves on which changes the API, and
Given a version number MAJOR.MINOR.PATCH, increment the:
Additional labels for pre-release and build metadata are available as extensions to the MAJOR.MINOR.PATCH format.
c) Joomla! 3.3 will involve changes to the API (correct/incorrect?)
d) Regardless of c) above, because site owners moving from J!3.2 to J! 3.3 can do so with a 'one-click update,' (provided PHP 5.3.10 + is used) the PLT is only iterating the MINOR part of the version number as long as 'one-click-updates' are 'doable' (correct/incorrect?)
e) In the case of Joomla! versioning, the 'MAJOR' part of the version number is only iterated when the changes made break the ability to 'one-click-update' (correct/incorrect)?
and finally, based on the above
f) Site owners on a MAJOR version of Joomla! (i.e. 3.x.x or 4.x.x) will be able to 'one-click-update' on that MAJOR version as new Releases become available (caveat: provided extensions used do not break) (correct/incorrect)?
Thanks so much for help in understanding this. Again, none of the questions here are 'urgent' - just seeking to ensure that I have a good understanding of this.
And thank you guys! I learn so much from you all.
Best,
N
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i) When do I upgrade?
I work in an large IT company and we have the following strategy - dont install new software versions for 6 months after it goes G.A. so other people find the bugs.
And for maintenance patches - only install n-1 (i.e. if v3.2 is released, I will then i will then install 3.1.
Thats what I will do here.
2) IMPORTANT
Will someone from the PLT please arrange for the Website details to be updated with the recommendations for the users - for example in the http://www.joomla.org/download.html page it states "Joomla 2.5 is the previous version of the CMS, recommended on an as-needed basis for new installs. For those already on Joomla 2.5, we recommend waiting until Joomla 3.5 before upgrading unless you need the features of 3.2."
** We have now been told this is RUBBISH, so why not update it with "Upgrade as soon as you can - every release we make G.A. can be used on your website". .. At least then we would know it officially. **
2) This will be done soon. We just released the new strategy and the first release under the new strategy will be 3.4 in Juny. So we still have a bit time to update all pages :-)
1) That's of course a stupid idea for various reasons. Except of course if you want to stay on less secure and more buggy versions.
2) This will be done soon. We just released the new strategy and the first release under the new strategy will be 3.4 in Juny. So we still have a bit time to update all pages :-)
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