Use Joomla! 1.6 UI as default or not?

[David-Andrew de Boer]

Are you guys planning on using the Joomla! 1.6 (or Joomla! 1.5) UI as default for the backend (toolbar, tabs, etc etc), or are you open to developing a (maybe) better UI?

Because there is just one idea that keeps popping into my head, that I will probably implement in my extensions at a later moment. The attached screenshot shows what I mean. 

At the moment in Joomla! 1.6, the top to first item (in this case an article) is 311 pixels, because of the admin template header, the large toolbar etc. Off course the admin template is probably not a subject for this project, but the toolbar is, right?

The toolbar (most of the time) shows a huge text and huge icons, which take up a lot of space, forcing the actual "core" of the page, the items, down. 

I noticed that in the Joomla! 1.5 distribution, Nooku Server, they also had this idea and improved the entire admin template, which now has a better screen real estate, as shown in the middle part of the screenshot. (Love that admin template btw :-))

Because this project probably only focusses on extensions, not the admin template, the third part in the screenshot shows just a quick example of how I would suggest to save some space at the mentioned areas, without moving away from the standatd Joomla! UI logic to much (show page title, toolbar, tabs). I quickly added the "New" button in my example, but in my idea it would be aligned right, a bit larger and off course have the chosen new icon. 

Joomla! 1.6 = 311 pixels

Nooku Server = 175 pixels, 136 pixels saved

Example = 220 pixels, 91 pixels saved

Might this be something to consider?

[Daniel Chapman]

Thanks for the great post. This is the sort of discussion I am hoping we can have.

The first thing we need to decide I suppose is whether we are going to use the native styles or if we are going to reinvent them.

I -want- to start our own, but the reality is that we should stick to one of the interfaces for consistency and to reduce the learning curve.

Once we decide to use native or not, which to base it on is the next step.

Personally, I don't really like the 1.5 or 1.6 native interface (they aren't really that much different), partially due to the big blocky headers you highlight here.

The NS (Nooku Server) admin is definitely a lot nicer.

So what do others think? Should we stick as close as possible to one of the native interfaces, or create our own optimal one?

 If we go native, which one?

[Matt Thomas]

Hi All,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here :)

I agree that the admin templates that have been done in the past are a bit boring, but we can't think if them in terms of a website design (and I'm not saying that you are). They are the interface to the software. As such, anything new will need to be supported and may negate the existing documentation and support that's out there. However, is it is intuitive and self-documenting, it would be nice to see some innovation on the back end.

That said, have you seen the Minima admin template? http://people.joomla.org/groups/viewdiscussion/550-Minima+demo+%28testers+needed%29.html?groupid=119

When you refer to "native styles", are you referring to CSS classes and IDs are design?

Best,

Matt Thomas
betweenbrain | Construct Unified Template Framework for Joomla! 1.5, 1.6, Molajo and Nooku Server

[Daniel Chapman]

Hi Matt,

This particular discussion is centered around the admin (though you could easily start one for the front end) as the admin interface is one that will be consistent across most sites. 

We aren't looking to make anything pretty for the same of being pretty, but rather to set some guidelines for consistency, so that people switching between components get basically the same experience every time.

Right now all the major extension developers, and many smaller ones, all do their own thing for the admin (and front end too!), so you need to re-learn every component individually. We would like to prevent this need.

Ideally, we will be able to use the native css as much as possible so that our extensions blend in with all of the major Joomla derivatives.

[David-Andrew de Boer]

Agreed to both of you.

Daniel: indeed, don't want to create something new, stick to what people know. I was hoping the mockup I made was an improvement, but still very easy to understand, as everything is still in  the same place (component name, toolbar icons, tabs) just grouped more compact I think that is about the maximum we can do before people have to start searching again. 

Matt: " However, is it is intuitive and self-documenting," Yes, if we improve some parts of the admin, that should be the goal. 

I think this subject is on a thin line: either part of this project, or maybe better to be part of a project trying to improve the Joomla! admin template. Close call.

Daniel: as I mentioned in another post, maybe we should support all versions, and show default icons (not develop our own) for the current instaleld Joomla! version. So the framework (Ill just call it that for now) would show Joomla! 1.5 icons in 1.5 and 1.6 icons in 1.6, and 1.7 icons (if changed) in 1.7

[Matt Thomas]

Hi Daniel,

Yes, I understand that we are discussing the admin template. What I'm also understanding from you is that this isn't a discussion of design per se, but more of a case of treating elements on a consistent basis so thought out the admin template and components. Correct?

In many respects, developing an un-styled wireframe for the admin, including components, may accomplish this nicely.

However, having approached this topic with 3rd party devs before, I'd recommend taking a step back from the design level and take on the perspective of the W3C. First work on developing and proposing a set of standards that propose advisable practices, such as including translatable language strings in conjunction with icons or propose a standardized location and order of a generic toolbar.

I've learned the hard way that encroaching on anything that may be considered creative is quickly ignored by third party devs, however they seem to be very receptive to things like proposing that every extension uses a unique class on the outer element to isolate CSS conflicts. Make sense?

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Best,

Matt Thomas
betweenbrain | Construct Unified Template Framework for Joomla! 1.5, 1.6, Molajo and Nooku Server

[Daniel Chapman]

@David: I liked your mockup by the way, and yes that is partially the sort of thing we want to cover, creating a set of basic HTML and CSS standards that we all abide by to keep the look and feel consistent.

The best example I can give is the Apple Human Interface Guidelines - http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/XHIGIntro.html

Which for Mac people, is the reason why Mac apps are all so easy to just hop in and use. An app that doesn't follow the HIG is very easy to spot, as you have to actually think about what things should be doing instead of just using them.

We could participate in the Joomla Admin template redesign as part of this, but I don't think a specific template design should replace a set of design guidleines. If anything, the Admin template itself should come -after- design guidelines were set and thus ensure it adhered to them itself.

@Matt: Yes this is more about structure than actual appearance, though some appearance elements will possibly be required. e.g. a single basic admin CSS would help us out a lot, if it was similar to, or based on, one of the grid css frameworks for example.

This could then be extended with (as an example only) something like the JQUI or YUI to give consistent look and feel.

I agree that trying to place design restrictions on developers and (particularly) designers,  can be like trying to push water uphill, but I feel we will have a an easier time on the admin side than the front end, and especially so if we can articulate the benefits well - easier acceptance by users, better UI and UX, faster, easier development

[Marco Barbosa]

So you're planning in making a new template?

Can I invite you to take a look at Minima again? I'm not self-promoting here as Minima is GPL and I don't get a single cent with it :)

http://demo.minimatemplate.com

The idea of guidelines for the back-end would be a dream come true and a huge step for Joomla, as we fail at the basics.

I have faced so many problems doing my template development that I lost count.

Silly things like, on one page you get an id of #something and in other pages it's actually a class of .something.

I'm still new to this group but I'll read everything and digest all the awesomeness later.

I like the smaller toolbar idea. Will see how much more I could push as well :)

[Daniel Chapman]

Not a new template, just a set of styles that fit any admin template

[David-Andrew de Boer]

Yeah, what Daniel said. I was just wondering if we could do things in the standards or if some things really need to be done in an admin template. 

I'll keep an eye out for Minima with a minimal toolbar :-)

I just had an idea for a name for a admin template with minimal toolbar: admini template. Ok, off topic, I'll shut up now.