Concept of time in Veda and Purana
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Amit
Jul 31, 2009, 7:06:30 PM7/31/09
to Jagadguru Kripalu Yog
Dear Swamiji:
JSK !
While reading our ancient texts, we find mention of many human life
spans ranging over thousands of years. Some rishis lived for 10,000
years. In genesis also many (e.g. Noah) are mentioned to have lived
for much longer than a normal human life span of 100 years. Was the
unit of time much shorter or was earth spinning much faster 10,000
years ago causing day-night to be shorter? or are we talking with an
astral life span - Like Master Maitriya of TS? or it is not to be
taken literally.
On the other hand, the time of the origin of the current universe by
modern physics (4.4 billion years) matches very well with the value
described in scripture.
Would you please explain how time is defined in scriptures?
With best regards,
Amit
JSK !
While reading our ancient texts, we find mention of many human life
spans ranging over thousands of years. Some rishis lived for 10,000
years. In genesis also many (e.g. Noah) are mentioned to have lived
for much longer than a normal human life span of 100 years. Was the
unit of time much shorter or was earth spinning much faster 10,000
years ago causing day-night to be shorter? or are we talking with an
astral life span - Like Master Maitriya of TS? or it is not to be
taken literally.
On the other hand, the time of the origin of the current universe by
modern physics (4.4 billion years) matches very well with the value
described in scripture.
Would you please explain how time is defined in scriptures?
With best regards,
Amit
deepa dave
Aug 1, 2009, 6:40:58 AM8/1/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Radhey Radhey Amit bhaiya,
You must have heard about Yugas. There are 4 Yugas - Sat Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dwapar Yuga and Kaliyug.
In Satyuga, mainly goodness previals. People are all virtuous. The golden age lasts 1,728,000 years. Also, the life of people in this yuga is really really long compared to our Kaliyug. During this yuga the majority of the population is situated in the mode of goodness (Sat guna) and the average life span at the beginning of the yuga is 100,000 years.
Tretayuga, also sometimes called the silver age, lasts 1,296,000 years. The average life span is 10,000 years and the godly qualities decrease one fourth compared to the Satya yuga. Bhagwan Ram's descension took place in Tretayuga.
Dwaparyuga, sometimes refered to as the bronze age, lasts 864,000 years. Godly qualities are reduced to 50% by now and the average life expectancy is only 1000 years. Bhagwan Krishna's descension took place in Dwaparyuga. Kaliyug started at the end of Dwapar when Lord Krishna went back to his divine abode, Golok.
Kaliyug, also called The Age of Materialism is the present age that we are living in. This is the iron age of hypocrisy and quarrel and lasts 432,000 years. God consciousness is reduced to 25% of the population and life expectancy is only 100 years. As we progress more into Kaliyug, we will find that more and more people find pleasure in the tamas activities like drinking, eating meat, hurting others, over sleeping, over eating, consuming drugs etc. We are just a little over 5,000 years into Kaliyug, lots of more years to go. Tamas guna or Mode of Ignorance prevails in this age.
GAURKRIPAALUdaas
Aug 1, 2009, 7:32:57 AM8/1/09
to Jagadguru Kripalu Yog
!! RADHEY RADHEY !!
My sincere pranaam unto the lotus feet of Swamiji.
Here again, the chance has come for the fallen
souls like me to sharpen their intellect.
Amit bhaiya has started a wonderful topic
regarding Time Measurement. Thanks a lot for it. Let me try to give
the answer according to my limited understanding. Enlightening
corrections are heartily welcome.
Shree Maharajji says that there are two kinds of
world : God-created and Soul-created. The world which we “feel” with
our five senses and even in Samadhi, is God-created world. And how we
interpret that world, is Soul-created world. In the words of Aadi
Jagadguru Shree Shankaracharya, according to his work called Drig-
Drishya-Vivek, Drishya ( Sight ) is called God-created world while
Drishti ( vision ) is Soul-created world.
This theory applies to every factor of creation
including Time.
Let we explore how Time is defined in Sanatan
Scriptures. Scriptures say that “Aksharaat sanjaayate kaalam” i.e.
Time is manifest from Eternity. At the point of creation, Time and
Motion – both are emanated from Maya, Aadi Prakriti. The combination
of Time and Motion is called “Change”. This is the main weapon of
creation which decays the life-span of even Brahmaji. This creation is
changing so rapidly that we cannot see exactly the same world two
times !
Now, since Time is manifest from Eternity, it is
the eternal concept. Since Time is relative and not Absolute, its
experience differs person by person or say Soul by Soul. In most of
the cases, we experience duration of Time according to our biological
clock. Our biological clock is the clock which depends on the self-
generated ideas about Time. It is directly related to the psychology
of the Soul. ( Even bacteria, virus etc. have their own psychologies
and bio-clocks. !! )
A little child experiences a year very much long
than a youngster. This is very much similar to the Space-travel
described in Special Theory of Relativity by Dr. Einstein. Modern
physicists, including Sir Stephen Hawking, describe Time as the
Gravity-dependent factor. Their large scale structure of Time, which
is totally dependent on the Mass of the object, represents the picture
of Time only in an aspect of Gravitational force. Hence, it is not the
complete explanation of Time. Modern Time-scale of earth which we
measure in wrist-watch, wall-clock, Tower-clock etc. is majorly
dependent on this concept of Gravitational-Time.
Our Scriptures say that Time is not limited up
to it. It is far beyond than that. Even black hole’s Singularity Point
is totally under control of Time. String Theory, which is the most
evolved version of Special Theory of Relativity, proves that even
Black holes have their life-span very much large but “limited”.
Because, spontaneous radiation from black hole decays its life. This
proves that black hole is governed by Time because without passage of
Time, spontaneous radiation cannot occur! This radiation merges into
Space and from Space, it assumes the gaseous form of Nebula and so
on…! All these things are happening because of the presence of Time.
Such subtle energy the Time is!
Now, just consider who are we before this
gigantic and most intelligent creation!!! We are not even as good as a
point in this universe. But we should not worry. Our Gracious Father,
GOD is so generous that He has mentioned the science in the Vedic
words which we can comprehend through His obedient child i.e.
Mahapurush !
This human body is the only body which is
capable to understand the Vedic wisdom. Therefore, whatever is
revealed in the Scriptures, is for mankind only. So, different
measurements regarding distance, Time etc. are related to the number
system of mankind. When Scriptures say that in Sat-yug people were
living the normal life of 10,000 years, by “years” they mean “Maanav-
varsh”. Now, one Maanav-varsh ( Human-year ) is the time-span of one
year experienced by Maanav ( Human ).
Someone, now, may argue that we all are Human
and then also we are experiencing a year-long feeling in different
degree. Then, how do we come to know that how long an exact Maanav-
varsh is ? The answer is simple. It is right that we are in human body
but we are not human ! That is to say, though we are in human body our
behavior is like an animal. We are running after the subject of our
five senses even worse than animal ! Our consciousness is not elevated
to the platform of human. And hence, according to our consciousness,
our psychology is built. According to our psychology, our biological
clock is built. According to our biological clock, experience of Time
differs person by person.
So, if we want to experience the length of one human-
year, we will have to elevate our consciousness to the platform of
Human. How ? By strictly observing Varnaashram Vyavastha
( Sociological System ) under the Divine guidance of Mahapurush. Once
we are elevated to human, the collective time-experience of 360 days
+360 nights will be considered as one human-year.
Thus, in ancient time, people were living the life
according to human-year not according to gravitational-year like
today. Their life-span was also calculated according to the bio-clock
of a human.
Well, this is something about the mystery of Time. Our
Scriptures are full of such amazing mysteries. After all, if the
Author ( GOD ) is so amazing then His book ( Veda ) has to be
amazing !!!
!! all glories to SHREE MAHARAJJI !!
With humbleness,
GAURKRIPAALUdaas.
My sincere pranaam unto the lotus feet of Swamiji.
Here again, the chance has come for the fallen
souls like me to sharpen their intellect.
Amit bhaiya has started a wonderful topic
regarding Time Measurement. Thanks a lot for it. Let me try to give
the answer according to my limited understanding. Enlightening
corrections are heartily welcome.
Shree Maharajji says that there are two kinds of
world : God-created and Soul-created. The world which we “feel” with
our five senses and even in Samadhi, is God-created world. And how we
interpret that world, is Soul-created world. In the words of Aadi
Jagadguru Shree Shankaracharya, according to his work called Drig-
Drishya-Vivek, Drishya ( Sight ) is called God-created world while
Drishti ( vision ) is Soul-created world.
This theory applies to every factor of creation
including Time.
Let we explore how Time is defined in Sanatan
Scriptures. Scriptures say that “Aksharaat sanjaayate kaalam” i.e.
Time is manifest from Eternity. At the point of creation, Time and
Motion – both are emanated from Maya, Aadi Prakriti. The combination
of Time and Motion is called “Change”. This is the main weapon of
creation which decays the life-span of even Brahmaji. This creation is
changing so rapidly that we cannot see exactly the same world two
times !
Now, since Time is manifest from Eternity, it is
the eternal concept. Since Time is relative and not Absolute, its
experience differs person by person or say Soul by Soul. In most of
the cases, we experience duration of Time according to our biological
clock. Our biological clock is the clock which depends on the self-
generated ideas about Time. It is directly related to the psychology
of the Soul. ( Even bacteria, virus etc. have their own psychologies
and bio-clocks. !! )
A little child experiences a year very much long
than a youngster. This is very much similar to the Space-travel
described in Special Theory of Relativity by Dr. Einstein. Modern
physicists, including Sir Stephen Hawking, describe Time as the
Gravity-dependent factor. Their large scale structure of Time, which
is totally dependent on the Mass of the object, represents the picture
of Time only in an aspect of Gravitational force. Hence, it is not the
complete explanation of Time. Modern Time-scale of earth which we
measure in wrist-watch, wall-clock, Tower-clock etc. is majorly
dependent on this concept of Gravitational-Time.
Our Scriptures say that Time is not limited up
to it. It is far beyond than that. Even black hole’s Singularity Point
is totally under control of Time. String Theory, which is the most
evolved version of Special Theory of Relativity, proves that even
Black holes have their life-span very much large but “limited”.
Because, spontaneous radiation from black hole decays its life. This
proves that black hole is governed by Time because without passage of
Time, spontaneous radiation cannot occur! This radiation merges into
Space and from Space, it assumes the gaseous form of Nebula and so
on…! All these things are happening because of the presence of Time.
Such subtle energy the Time is!
Now, just consider who are we before this
gigantic and most intelligent creation!!! We are not even as good as a
point in this universe. But we should not worry. Our Gracious Father,
GOD is so generous that He has mentioned the science in the Vedic
words which we can comprehend through His obedient child i.e.
Mahapurush !
This human body is the only body which is
capable to understand the Vedic wisdom. Therefore, whatever is
revealed in the Scriptures, is for mankind only. So, different
measurements regarding distance, Time etc. are related to the number
system of mankind. When Scriptures say that in Sat-yug people were
living the normal life of 10,000 years, by “years” they mean “Maanav-
varsh”. Now, one Maanav-varsh ( Human-year ) is the time-span of one
year experienced by Maanav ( Human ).
Someone, now, may argue that we all are Human
and then also we are experiencing a year-long feeling in different
degree. Then, how do we come to know that how long an exact Maanav-
varsh is ? The answer is simple. It is right that we are in human body
but we are not human ! That is to say, though we are in human body our
behavior is like an animal. We are running after the subject of our
five senses even worse than animal ! Our consciousness is not elevated
to the platform of human. And hence, according to our consciousness,
our psychology is built. According to our psychology, our biological
clock is built. According to our biological clock, experience of Time
differs person by person.
So, if we want to experience the length of one human-
year, we will have to elevate our consciousness to the platform of
Human. How ? By strictly observing Varnaashram Vyavastha
( Sociological System ) under the Divine guidance of Mahapurush. Once
we are elevated to human, the collective time-experience of 360 days
+360 nights will be considered as one human-year.
Thus, in ancient time, people were living the life
according to human-year not according to gravitational-year like
today. Their life-span was also calculated according to the bio-clock
of a human.
Well, this is something about the mystery of Time. Our
Scriptures are full of such amazing mysteries. After all, if the
Author ( GOD ) is so amazing then His book ( Veda ) has to be
amazing !!!
!! all glories to SHREE MAHARAJJI !!
With humbleness,
GAURKRIPAALUdaas.
Ashish Gupta
Aug 1, 2009, 10:08:56 AM8/1/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Well, this is a fine and elaborate discussion on time but it does not answer that question.
The definition of time was the same then as it is now. That is the unit of time of 1 year represents 1 earth cycle around the Sun, whose speed has not changed.
So, either the folks mentioned did live 10,000 yrs or they did not. This is not 'experiential' time, which falls in different intellectual categories and such and such...
|
deepa dave
Aug 1, 2009, 7:04:57 AM8/1/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Amit bhaiya,
I am sending more information, hope it is helpful. This is from the encyclopedia of authentic hinduism based on the True History and Religion of India.
(48) The exact calculations of the age of Brahma and the existing manvantar according to the Bhagwatam.
Absolute age of the earth planet and the sun. Bhagwan Ved Vyas explains in the Bhagwatam that 155.52 trillion years have passed since Brahma originally created this planetary system, and this is the present age of Brahma.
The Bhagwatam says, “Brahma’s one day equals to 1,000 cycles of the four yugas (one cycle of four yugas is 4.32 million years). It is called one kalp. There are fourteen Manus in one kalp. For the same length of time there is the night of Brahma. This is called pralaya or kalp pralaya. At that time the earth planet and the sun along with three celestial abodes (bhu, bhuv and swah) enter into the transition period (and become uninhabited). During that period Brahma holds within himself all the beings of the material and the celestial worlds in a suspended state and sleeps. (The next day he again produces them and re-forms them as they were before.) In this way Brahma lives for two parardh (twice of 50 years). After that, there is a complete dissolution of the brahmand (the planetary system and its celestial abodes). This is called prakrit pralaya of the brahmand.” (Bhag. 12/4/2 to 6)
“Half of Brahma’s life is called parardh. One parardh is finished and the existing kalp is in the beginning of the second parardh (the first day of the 51st year of Brahma). The very first day of Brahma was the day when he himself was created by God Vishnu and it was called the Brahm kalp. The present running kalp is called Varah kalp (or Shvet Varah kalp).” (3/11/33,34,36)
“In this kalp six Manus like Swayambhuva Manu etc. have elapsed. The seventh Manu is the son of Vivaswan. He is the present Manu and is called Vaivaswat Manu.” (8/1/4; 8/13/1)
In the Bhagwat Mahatmya Bhagwan Ved Vyas reveals a great secret and says that this is the 28th dwapar (of Vaivaswat manvantar). Not in all, but sometimes at the end of the 28th dwapar of a kalp the supreme personality of God, Krishn, in His absolute loving form descends in the world on the land of Bharatvarsh and reveals His supremely charming playful Divine leelas; and that had happened in our age just about 5,000 years ago. (Bhag. Ma. 1/29)
According to the above information, Brahma’s age which is also the absolute age of our sun and the earth planet is: 50 years of Brahma x 720 days and nights x (1,000 x 4.32 million years of the four yugas, which is one day of Brahma) + 1,972 million years* (the existing age of the earth planet) = 155.521972 trillion years.
* One manvantar is: 308.57142 million years. Thus, 1851.4285 (6 manvantar) + 116.6400 (27 cycles of four yugas) + 3.8931 (the three yugas and the elapsed time of kaliyug) = 1971.9616 in 1998 AD.One year of Brahma is of 360 days (and one month of Brahma is of 30 days). So, 360 x 50 = 18,000 days and nights of Brahma have elapsed. Thus, our earth planet and the sun have already been renovated 18,000 times. It’s a big figure, but reasonable if you think over it deeply, and again it is given by an all-knowing Divine personality.
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Amit <ttg...@aol.com> wrote:
Srini Talluri
Aug 1, 2009, 12:14:04 PM8/1/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Radhey Radhey,
When we starting thinking in this direction, it is very important to understand the concept of time and its relation to the experiencer.
Einstein defines Time as gap between two sequential events in space, observed by an observer who does not change with time. But, the observer does change in the mean time. Vedanta defines time more subjectively since the subject too is to be included in the perception of time. In order to perceive time, you need the experiencer. Once the experiencer is brought into the definition, mind comes as well because the experience itself is an idea in the mind.
There is no concept of time when a person is in deep sleep. Therefore time is only valid as long as there are thoughts. The time (gap between two events) that elapses without any body experiencing it is objective time and the one that is experienced is subjective time. This is why we completely lose the concept of time when we are deeply involved in something of when we are having a happy time.
Time is a product of God is something that is often quoted in Puranas.
Hari Om
Srinivasa
This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.
Ashish Gupta
Aug 2, 2009, 2:50:48 AM8/2/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Well, appreciated, but we continue to torture the definition of time. Instead of answering a simple logical question, we are applying differing definitions to suit a result. Experience apart, whether a person is sleeping, or otherwise inattentive, physical time has passed. Yes, we know about the time-space continuum, but Swamiji did clearly state in Chicago that time is REAL and LINEAR. I hope I am quoting Swamiji accurately.
In my opinion we need not dance around the logic. Either folks did live 1000, or 10,000 years, OR they did not -- according to Linear time, which has remained unchanged.
Radhe Radhe,
|
Shailee
Aug 2, 2009, 5:25:59 AM8/2/09
to Jagadguru Kripalu Yog
Radhey Radhey Aashish,
I will try to explain it in a simple way. There are two things to
remember:
1. Time varies according to the Loks. 24 hours of Swarg Lok is 1 year
of earth (Mrityulok) and so on.
2. The age and height of creatures in planet earth also varies
according to Yugas. People used to leave longer in Satya, Treta and
Dwaper yugs in comparison to Kaliyug. The ill effects of Kali is such-
people will have shorter life and physique and intellect. Even Shree
Maharaj ji has said this thing in many of his lectures.
Hope this will do.
Regards
Shailee
On Aug 1, 7:08 pm, Ashish Gupta <ashish...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, this is a fine and elaborate discussion on time but it does not answer that question.
>
> The definition of time was the same then as it is now. That is the unit of time of 1 year represents 1 earth cycle around the Sun, whose speed has not changed.
>
> So, either the folks mentioned did live 10,000 yrs or they did not. This is not 'experiential' time, which falls in different intellectual categories and such and such...
>
> Ashish
>
> --- On Sat, 8/1/09, GAURKRIPAALUdaas <kripaalud...@gmail.com> wrote:
I will try to explain it in a simple way. There are two things to
remember:
1. Time varies according to the Loks. 24 hours of Swarg Lok is 1 year
of earth (Mrityulok) and so on.
2. The age and height of creatures in planet earth also varies
according to Yugas. People used to leave longer in Satya, Treta and
Dwaper yugs in comparison to Kaliyug. The ill effects of Kali is such-
people will have shorter life and physique and intellect. Even Shree
Maharaj ji has said this thing in many of his lectures.
Hope this will do.
Regards
Shailee
On Aug 1, 7:08 pm, Ashish Gupta <ashish...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, this is a fine and elaborate discussion on time but it does not answer that question.
>
> The definition of time was the same then as it is now. That is the unit of time of 1 year represents 1 earth cycle around the Sun, whose speed has not changed.
>
> So, either the folks mentioned did live 10,000 yrs or they did not. This is not 'experiential' time, which falls in different intellectual categories and such and such...
>
> Ashish
>
Patitadheen
Aug 2, 2009, 6:20:47 AM8/2/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Radhey Radhey,
Looks like a lot of 'time' has passed under the bridge ;) sorry, couldn't resist that!
Like Ashish mentioned, it appears we have digressed from the main question.
Did Rishis (Sages) live for 1000s of years? What about Noah?
<Mowgli puts on his scientific thinking hat>
To the human brain, it seems near impossible simply because we have no "recorded" history of any such incident. I mean if Google search or YouTube doesn't yield anything fruitful, it isn't there right?
That is how our intellect works. If i haven't seen a 10,000 year old man or woman, then i don't believe it. Scientists have no sure formula to ensure a lifespan of certain years. There is no pill which guarantees a 100 year / 200 year / 500 year / 1000 year life span. So, scientifically it is not acceptable to us since we have no living proof.
<Quickly grabs a philosophical hat from the trash bin>
Ancient sages did possess the power of "Yoga" and many other mystical powers (Siddhis), which they successfully used to attain some goal. What was the goal? That, we may never know. My personal trip to the Himalayas with my good friend, Yeti was always abound with rumours of a particular "Babaji" living in the mountains for "ages" together. Nobody knows his age. So, there is some smoke, somewhere.
There is known and recorded history of "Tapasvis" or people who undertake great austerities like living only on water or air. Apparently, they do this for many 100s of years. Now, these are again humans who have gained special powers from the forces that might be in order to attain some goal.
With God's grace, these humans (who later became sages with immense powers) did live for 1000s of years. This is where we can apply the "Yuga" principle. In Satyuga and Tretayuga, people definitely lived very long. Their lifespan was long. So, these dudes in the past did 'naturally' live for 1000s of years. They did not have to do anything special. Why, when we guys were in Satyuga or Tretayuga, we did live for 1000s of years.
Imagine having the same mother-in-law or spouse for 103850387403 years....H E L P M E E E E E E E !!!
<Scientific / Fool-osophical / Spiritual Hat>
The speed earth's rotation has been the same. That has not changed. Of course, i could play it safe and say "Well, there are always some slight variations, give or take a few". But, in general, 24 hours always meant 86,400 seconds. There might be a few seconds or minutes lost or gained. We may never be able to calculate how many seconds we have lost (or gained) since the last time earth started to spin. I guess it is futile anyway. These are "human" years and applicable for the life forms within the solar system.
Now, Devtas and other honourable dignitaries live in a different plane / realm called "abodes". I've heard some masquerade on earth in search of true saints, but haven't bumped into one yet.
The Sun and the Moon are the same for them as we have, but their measurement of time and day is different, since the passage of time is slower as we go higher up the "Spiritual Corporate Ladder" :)
For ex., A Devta / Devi could live for 100 Devta years (measured in his / her abode) , which is actually 1000s of years for humans, when measure on the earth planet. So, if we were to measure time sitting in our own respective balconies, watching the crimson sunset, it would be 1 Devta hour for the Devtas, but nearly 1 month for us humans!
Gee, think of that. Watching a sunset for one month !!!!
Hence, it is definitely true that humans on earth lived for many 1000s of years. The great 'Bhakt Prahlad' was instructed by the Supreme God to rule over the whole world for millions and millions of years!
How on earth is that possible ?!!!!?
Well, Bhakt Prahlad had God's blessings. He was a God-realized soul, a 'Mahapurush'. But other normal people were granted a wish to perform austerities (and live for 1000s of years) to gain something.
What about Noah?
My brain is frying mate. Never had to think so much in me lyfe!
All i know is that this Noah bloke had this dinghy, and put all the animals from the jungle and sailed away into the horizon!
Boy...my head is spinning, let alone the earth... what was the question again?
Best Wishes,
Fool-osopher Mowgli
Ashish Gupta
Aug 2, 2009, 2:09:08 PM8/2/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Shailee ji, I agree fully that people used to live longer in prior Yuga's. I dispute only the contention that the scale for measuring time for earthly creatures and humans was a different one.
|
Amit
Aug 2, 2009, 5:25:51 PM8/2/09
to Jagadguru Kripalu Yog
Dear friends:
Thank you all for taking time to ponder in this question. I am still
not satisfied with the explanations. On one hand you want to believe
in scritptures but we also want to apply some common sense.
The recorded and known history of civilized man (which can be proved
by archeological evidence or such) is not older than 15,000 years.
One of the problems with our continent history is that there are not
many archeological evidences unearthed to correlate with the
scriptures. It does not mean that scriptures are not true but it does
give a pause. Lord Krisha appeared some 5,000 years ago. According
to historical and geographical evdience, the field where Mahabharat
took place could not have contained 16,000,00 warriers and their
equipments.
Our sun is 4.3 billion years old so earth cannot be older than that.
If universe is repeatedly destroyed and then recreated (which may be
true based on expansion and contraction of universe), OUR earth
history cannot continue on the the same time scale. Time is not
absolute and it changes with gravitation. Time is relative. So how
can many people mentioned in Mahabharat could have lived for 10,000
years! The same Rishis mentioned in Ramayana also appears in
Mahabharata. Were these the same Rishis living long or different ones
with the same names? In "Autography of a Yogi", there are numerous
mentions about Mahavatar Babaji who has lived for centuries. During
my visit to India, someone in family introduced me to an old Sadhu
near Pavagadh who is believed to be 300 years old as per near by
villagers!
On one hand, we belive that accumulated Krama is the cuase for
rebirth- death so shorter, spiritual, and meaningful life we live the
better. How can then living longer helps us along the main
objective?
Please respond directly as you see/ understand it.
Best regards,
Amit
> > --- On *Sat, 8/1/09, Srini Talluri <srini.tall...@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >> >* wrote:
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you all for taking time to ponder in this question. I am still
not satisfied with the explanations. On one hand you want to believe
in scritptures but we also want to apply some common sense.
The recorded and known history of civilized man (which can be proved
by archeological evidence or such) is not older than 15,000 years.
One of the problems with our continent history is that there are not
many archeological evidences unearthed to correlate with the
scriptures. It does not mean that scriptures are not true but it does
give a pause. Lord Krisha appeared some 5,000 years ago. According
to historical and geographical evdience, the field where Mahabharat
took place could not have contained 16,000,00 warriers and their
equipments.
Our sun is 4.3 billion years old so earth cannot be older than that.
If universe is repeatedly destroyed and then recreated (which may be
true based on expansion and contraction of universe), OUR earth
history cannot continue on the the same time scale. Time is not
absolute and it changes with gravitation. Time is relative. So how
can many people mentioned in Mahabharat could have lived for 10,000
years! The same Rishis mentioned in Ramayana also appears in
Mahabharata. Were these the same Rishis living long or different ones
with the same names? In "Autography of a Yogi", there are numerous
mentions about Mahavatar Babaji who has lived for centuries. During
my visit to India, someone in family introduced me to an old Sadhu
near Pavagadh who is believed to be 300 years old as per near by
villagers!
On one hand, we belive that accumulated Krama is the cuase for
rebirth- death so shorter, spiritual, and meaningful life we live the
better. How can then living longer helps us along the main
objective?
Please respond directly as you see/ understand it.
Best regards,
Amit
>
> > From: Srini Talluri <srini.tall...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: {Jagadguru Kripalu Yog Egroup: } Re: Concept of time in Veda
> > and Purana
> > To: jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:14 AM
>
> > Radhey Radhey,
>
> > When we starting thinking in this direction, it is very important to
> > understand the concept of time and its relation to the experiencer.
>
> > Einstein defines Time as gap between two sequential events in space,
> > observed by an observer who does not change with time. But, the observer
> > does change in the mean time. Vedanta defines time more subjectively since
> > the subject too is to be included in the perception of time. In order to
> > perceive time, you need the experiencer. Once the experiencer is brought
> > into the definition, mind comes as well because the experience itself is an
> > idea in the mind.
>
> > There is no concept of time when a person is in deep sleep. Therefore time
> > is only valid as long as there are thoughts. The time (gap between two
> > events) that elapses without any body experiencing it is objective time and
> > the one that is experienced is subjective time. This is why we completely
> > lose the concept of time when we are deeply involved in something of when we
> > are having a happy time.
>
> > Time is a product of God is something that is often quoted in Puranas.
>
> > Hari Om
> > Srinivasa
>
> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Ashish Gupta <ashish...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc318g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ashish...@yahoo.com>
> > From: Srini Talluri <srini.tall...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: {Jagadguru Kripalu Yog Egroup: } Re: Concept of time in Veda
> > and Purana
> > To: jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:14 AM
>
> > Radhey Radhey,
>
> > When we starting thinking in this direction, it is very important to
> > understand the concept of time and its relation to the experiencer.
>
> > Einstein defines Time as gap between two sequential events in space,
> > observed by an observer who does not change with time. But, the observer
> > does change in the mean time. Vedanta defines time more subjectively since
> > the subject too is to be included in the perception of time. In order to
> > perceive time, you need the experiencer. Once the experiencer is brought
> > into the definition, mind comes as well because the experience itself is an
> > idea in the mind.
>
> > There is no concept of time when a person is in deep sleep. Therefore time
> > is only valid as long as there are thoughts. The time (gap between two
> > events) that elapses without any body experiencing it is objective time and
> > the one that is experienced is subjective time. This is why we completely
> > lose the concept of time when we are deeply involved in something of when we
> > are having a happy time.
>
> > Time is a product of God is something that is often quoted in Puranas.
>
> > Hari Om
> > Srinivasa
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >> Well, this is a fine and elaborate discussion on time but it does not
> >> answer that question.
>
> >> The definition of time was the same then as it is now. That is the unit of
> >> time of 1 year represents 1 earth cycle around the Sun, whose speed has not
> >> changed.
>
> >> *So, either the folks mentioned did live 10,000 yrs or they did not*.
>
> >> Well, this is a fine and elaborate discussion on time but it does not
> >> answer that question.
>
> >> The definition of time was the same then as it is now. That is the unit of
> >> time of 1 year represents 1 earth cycle around the Sun, whose speed has not
> >> changed.
>
> >> This is not 'experiential' time, which falls in different intellectual
> >> categories and such and such...
>
> >> Ashish
>
> >> --- On *Sat, 8/1/09, GAURKRIPAALUdaas <kripaalud...@gmail.com<http://us.mc318g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kripaalud...@gmail.com>
> >> categories and such and such...
>
> >> Ashish
>
> >> >* wrote:
>
> >> From: GAURKRIPAALUdaas <kripaalud...@gmail.com<http://us.mc318g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kripaalud...@gmail.com>
>
> >> Subject: {Jagadguru Kripalu Yog Egroup: } Re: Concept of time in Veda and
> >> Purana
> >> To: "Jagadguru Kripalu Yog" <jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc318g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jagadguru-kripalu-yog@g...>
> >> From: GAURKRIPAALUdaas <kripaalud...@gmail.com<http://us.mc318g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kripaalud...@gmail.com>
>
> >> Subject: {Jagadguru Kripalu Yog Egroup: } Re: Concept of time in Veda and
> >> Purana
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ashish Gupta
Aug 2, 2009, 2:18:17 PM8/2/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Mowgli,
A very thoughtful as well as light hearted post as always. |
|
"For ex., A Devta / Devi could live for 100 Devta years (measured in his / her abode) , which is actually 1000s of years for humans, when measure on the earth planet. So, if we were to measure time sitting in our own respective balconies, watching the crimson sunset, it would be 1 Devta hour for the Devtas, but nearly 1 month for us humans!"
|
Referring to this above however, the thrust of the original argument was whether Humans, albeit enlightened ones, lived the long # of years, not Devta's etc. who may well be on a different time scale. Just a note also that I never asserted Humans could not have lived very long, simply that we must answer that question using the prevailing time scale.
NO CHEATING. LOL.
Radhe Radhe....
Ashish
|
Ashish Gupta
Aug 3, 2009, 12:40:31 AM8/3/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Amit - just a quick reply for now. I fully understand your questions and logic. Some may assume it to 'question' or 'doubt' faith, however, the first principle is supposed to be that the Vedas are a Science. There is not even a religion known as Hinduism. Veda's are said to be rational, scientific, and consistent w/ history and logic. To the extent that discrepancies appear, we must search for an explanation in clear terms, not offer 'explanations' that change the definition of terms to simply wish the matter away. That is not a real pursuit, in my humble opinion, and without doubting any individual intention in the slightest.
I myself do not have an answer for the questions you've posed and am a firm believer that the scriptures must be fully consistent w/ fact and history. Of course, we are not saying they are not, simply a matter of certain information that may be unknown/unobservable to we Humans, possibly. However we should always seek to understand and reconcile....
|
|
To: "Jagadguru Kripalu Yog" <jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com> |
Message has been deleted
Shailee Adhikari
Aug 3, 2009, 1:39:03 AM8/3/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Radhey Radhey Amit and Ashish,
First I request you to google "Forbidden Archaeology" and you will come up with over a hundred thousand pages, that reveal innumerable archaeological evidences that contradict the present historical viewpoint. Now, tell me which one will you say is the correct one?
The history, archaeological researches and theories are man made. And this universe is the creation of God. So the simple logic is- No man made theories can define the God's creation and it's history. All these theories are faulty and one theory denies other. No two historians will agree on one point. No philosopher can tell why we exist. There are confusing reports. Few centuries back the science, history, geography, philosophy, the entire human community used to believe that earth is flat, sun revolves around earth and what not. Now we laugh at them.
So, if we actually want to know the mystery of universe, when, how and who created it, we will have to stop entangling our intellect in futile man-made historical evidences and archaeological discoveries and delve in to the scriptures-the Vedas. The Vedas gives a clear, straight forward, rational and scientific answer to when, how and who created the universe. Our scripture has never said the earth is flat and sun revolves around earth. The modern science claims to have discovered them now. However, the scriptures have revealed all of them and much more since day one.
We will move further on this topic, if you are ready to accept that the universe is creation of God and we cannot understand it by applying mortal logics. There are new theories popping up every day about universe and if you will follow each one of them, you will be confused. If you will follow one among them, you will be misled.
God is beyond our intellect and so is His creation. We cannot just keep on questioning “did humans really lived for 10,000 years, how 16,000,00 warriors fit in to such small area and so on?” You need to drop the sceptic’s hat and wear a believer’s hat to understand the events mentioned in scripture. Why don’t you think, nothing is impossible for God. Once you start believing in God, all your doubts will vanish automatically-this is a guarantee. Try being a believer, things will be much easier for you to understand.
Regards
Shailee
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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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Patitadheen
Aug 3, 2009, 10:43:55 AM8/3/09
to jagadguru-...@googlegroups.com
Jolly good!
As Dream Theater so prophetically proclaimed in their epic song, 'The Great Debate',
"Moral faith and science have collided"
One of the biggest challenges that scientists face is to prove what they speculate or challenge. Till science proves that the earth is indeed 4.3 billion years old, it will remain a speculation. This claim must have unanimous approval from an overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Only then will the world accept it. Till now, nobody has been decisively clear about the process of creation, the age of this Universe and many other such mysteries.
One of man's most ambitious projects to unravel the mystery of creation met a serious setback a few months ago. The LHC project went kaput at CERN in Switzerland, much to the dismay of a very optimistic fraternity.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html
It is a matter of great surprise that we scientists have still not managed to re-create hair !
We do have hair transplant but nobody has managed to manufacture hair. Think of that.
Scientists, Explorers and many more intellectuals are programmed to be rational and factual. Our education system, thinking progress and lifestyle has inculcated a very "fact and figures" based approach to most of the challenges we are thrown into. This is one of the root causes of our spontaneous urge to question anything that does not appeal to our intellect. It is good to question, but there are many questions that do not have a definite "factual" answer that can satisfy everyone.
For ex., the Vedas clearly state the current version of the earth planet was released for public use by Lord Brahma about 1.972 Billion years ago. There is no thesis or project report to support this statement. We either take it at face value or leave it.
Now, who said that? How am I do believe the person who said that earth is only 1.972 Billion years old? That is a matter of faith and being able to (or lucky enough) to find a person who is a source of authentic knowledge.
Lord Brahma is not going to come around asking us to believe in what he has done or said. There are no release notes, bug fixes, automatic updates either on www.3rdrockfromthesun.com.
Anyway, as many of our (im)posters have indicated, the scriptures "do have" the facts and figures, but the onus is on the "Believer". It is impossible for us to pick up Vedic scriptures and decipher them. It has to come from a "qualified" Guru, who can explain everything to us.
Somebody mentioned about Time's dependence on Gravity. When an epochal event called "Maha Pralay" takes place, everything, and i mean "EVERYTHING" goes into a "hibernate state" and dissolves into the Supreme Lord (God). Only God exists, even time does not exist. After a "specific time period", God brings everything back to the same state as they were before they went to sleep. Time start ticking. Lord Brahma appears from within God and he goes on to create the Universe. The rest as they say, is history.
Here is a statement that we cannot fathom or full assimilate. How can everything just vanish into God? How can "time pass" when we claim that even time does not exist? What happened to Gravity?
It is next to impossible to reconcile these statements without the help of Divine knowledge / interference. Yet, they are true and mentioned repeatedly in many sloks across the holy Hindu scriptures. I am just quoting them.
In short, questions that cannot be answered by science can only be reconciled by spirituality. For the moment, we are to believe what is said to us. When we reach a state where our intellect can fathom 'The Absolute Truth', then we will surely learn the secret behind the creation of this Universe, age of the earth and so on.
I hope you will pardon my statement, but it really does not matter to me if this earth is a million years old or a zillion. It does not matter to me if Devtas lived 1000 years or a few hours.
Allegorical and rational thinking is limited. Our intellect works only to a certain extent and then runs out of steam. If we are given answers to questions, then our intellect refuses to believe them because they are against our innate beliefs, and is not approved by the Dept. of State or NASA or some obscure laboratory 200 miles below ground.
Rishis (who were / are humans) have the power to live for 1000s of years. There is no doubt about it. Many other God-realized saints have lived for 1000s of years. Yogis with their special mystical powers did manage to live for 1000s of years. Sorry mate, but how does it matter? :)
Hence, my personal belief is that science and moral faith / spirituality will always remain on collision course, as long as human intellect drives them. In fact, science and spirituality are complementary. They go together. You need science as well as spirituality. There are scientific secrets we cannot understand or fathom. That is where spiritual power comes in.
If we surrender our intellect to a power in whom we can trust, then our questioning will vanish. Finding such a source is probably the greatest quest you will every undertake. I can proclaim that i have found such a source but who is to believe a jungle creature!
There is a blog that has a very informal take on pretty much the same subject. http://kripaludas.blogspot.com
Till that bolt of lightening strikes my pea-brain, I have decided to forget about it and do what is necessary to attain my goal in this lifetime, instead of roaming the streets of scientific research with a lamp that is bound to burn out.
I bet somebody is thinking, "That still does not answer my question" !!!
Where's getafix?
Good Luck and Best Wishes,
Mowgli
As Dream Theater so prophetically proclaimed in their epic song, 'The Great Debate',
"Moral faith and science have collided"
One of the biggest challenges that scientists face is to prove what they speculate or challenge. Till science proves that the earth is indeed 4.3 billion years old, it will remain a speculation. This claim must have unanimous approval from an overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Only then will the world accept it. Till now, nobody has been decisively clear about the process of creation, the age of this Universe and many other such mysteries.
One of man's most ambitious projects to unravel the mystery of creation met a serious setback a few months ago. The LHC project went kaput at CERN in Switzerland, much to the dismay of a very optimistic fraternity.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html
It is a matter of great surprise that we scientists have still not managed to re-create hair !
We do have hair transplant but nobody has managed to manufacture hair. Think of that.
Scientists, Explorers and many more intellectuals are programmed to be rational and factual. Our education system, thinking progress and lifestyle has inculcated a very "fact and figures" based approach to most of the challenges we are thrown into. This is one of the root causes of our spontaneous urge to question anything that does not appeal to our intellect. It is good to question, but there are many questions that do not have a definite "factual" answer that can satisfy everyone.
For ex., the Vedas clearly state the current version of the earth planet was released for public use by Lord Brahma about 1.972 Billion years ago. There is no thesis or project report to support this statement. We either take it at face value or leave it.
Now, who said that? How am I do believe the person who said that earth is only 1.972 Billion years old? That is a matter of faith and being able to (or lucky enough) to find a person who is a source of authentic knowledge.
Lord Brahma is not going to come around asking us to believe in what he has done or said. There are no release notes, bug fixes, automatic updates either on www.3rdrockfromthesun.com.
Anyway, as many of our (im)posters have indicated, the scriptures "do have" the facts and figures, but the onus is on the "Believer". It is impossible for us to pick up Vedic scriptures and decipher them. It has to come from a "qualified" Guru, who can explain everything to us.
Somebody mentioned about Time's dependence on Gravity. When an epochal event called "Maha Pralay" takes place, everything, and i mean "EVERYTHING" goes into a "hibernate state" and dissolves into the Supreme Lord (God). Only God exists, even time does not exist. After a "specific time period", God brings everything back to the same state as they were before they went to sleep. Time start ticking. Lord Brahma appears from within God and he goes on to create the Universe. The rest as they say, is history.
Here is a statement that we cannot fathom or full assimilate. How can everything just vanish into God? How can "time pass" when we claim that even time does not exist? What happened to Gravity?
It is next to impossible to reconcile these statements without the help of Divine knowledge / interference. Yet, they are true and mentioned repeatedly in many sloks across the holy Hindu scriptures. I am just quoting them.
In short, questions that cannot be answered by science can only be reconciled by spirituality. For the moment, we are to believe what is said to us. When we reach a state where our intellect can fathom 'The Absolute Truth', then we will surely learn the secret behind the creation of this Universe, age of the earth and so on.
I hope you will pardon my statement, but it really does not matter to me if this earth is a million years old or a zillion. It does not matter to me if Devtas lived 1000 years or a few hours.
Allegorical and rational thinking is limited. Our intellect works only to a certain extent and then runs out of steam. If we are given answers to questions, then our intellect refuses to believe them because they are against our innate beliefs, and is not approved by the Dept. of State or NASA or some obscure laboratory 200 miles below ground.
Rishis (who were / are humans) have the power to live for 1000s of years. There is no doubt about it. Many other God-realized saints have lived for 1000s of years. Yogis with their special mystical powers did manage to live for 1000s of years. Sorry mate, but how does it matter? :)
Hence, my personal belief is that science and moral faith / spirituality will always remain on collision course, as long as human intellect drives them. In fact, science and spirituality are complementary. They go together. You need science as well as spirituality. There are scientific secrets we cannot understand or fathom. That is where spiritual power comes in.
If we surrender our intellect to a power in whom we can trust, then our questioning will vanish. Finding such a source is probably the greatest quest you will every undertake. I can proclaim that i have found such a source but who is to believe a jungle creature!
There is a blog that has a very informal take on pretty much the same subject. http://kripaludas.blogspot.com
Till that bolt of lightening strikes my pea-brain, I have decided to forget about it and do what is necessary to attain my goal in this lifetime, instead of roaming the streets of scientific research with a lamp that is bound to burn out.
I bet somebody is thinking, "That still does not answer my question" !!!
Where's getafix?
Good Luck and Best Wishes,
Mowgli
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