What language did the Jews speak to each other post Renaissance?

[Ben Atlas]

Hi,

What language did the Jews speak to each other post Renaissance in the
Land of Israel?

More specially. The time of Isaac Luria (Ari) , the second part of the
16th century, the Kabbalistic Renaissance in Tzfat. The town was full
of Askenazim (half), who were born in Israel like Ari, Askenazim that
came to Tzfat from Europe. Sephardim that came from the Ottoman
empire and Italy, former Maranaos from Portugal and Europe, Sephardim
from North Africa, Jews from Egypt. What did they speak to each other
during the most fruitful 30-50 years in the Jewish millennium?

Forward to the 17th century, I have the same question about Nathan
from Gaza. What did Nathan haGhazzati, an Ashkenazi from Jerusalem
spoke on his several tips to Italy, Ottoman lands, Egypt? What did he
speak when he lectured and preached about Sabbatai Zevi? What did he
speak while growing up in Jerusalem?

Thank you,

Ben

[Ben Atlas]

Hi Benny, of course Nathan of Gaza and others could write in many languages. Especially Judeo-arabic since he grew up in Jerusalem and lived in Gaza after his marriage to a prominent Sephardi family from Damascus. My question was they SPOKE to the the Jews from other parts of the world at that time. Or among themselves.

-Ben

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:26 AM, Benjamin Hary <benjam...@nyu.edu> wrote:

Hi Ben,

we have a record of Nathan writing in Judeo-Arabic.

See my 1997 article (with Elqayam) on the topic.

Best,

Benny

Benjamin Hary, Ph.D.
Director, NYU Tel Aviv
Professor, Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
New York University
https://nyu.academia.edu/BenjaminHary
http://www.nyu.edu/global/global-academic-centers/telaviv.html

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[Benjamin Hary]

Hi Ben,

we have a record of Nathan writing in Judeo-Arabic.

See my 1997 article (with Elqayam) on the topic.

Best,

Benny

Benjamin Hary, Ph.D.
Director, NYU Tel Aviv
Professor, Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
New York University
https://nyu.academia.edu/BenjaminHary
http://www.nyu.edu/global/global-academic-centers/telaviv.html

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Ben Atlas <benjami...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Joshua Schwartz]

Thank you for this question!

When I was in seminar with Prof. Lawrence Schiffman, he made a passing comment which I found most provocative and plausible.

He argued that there is a real possibility that rabbinic Hebrew (loshn koydesh, as it were) could have served as a Jewish parallel of the Latin used in Christian scholastic contexts. That is to say, rabbinic Hebrew could have served as an academic language, in instruction, in Jewish academies. A proof he offered was how the Rosh appeared to have been hired to teach pretty quickly after migrating from Germany to Spain, after leaving to escape the Crusades. It seems unlikely he knew Judeo-Spanish, and it's unlikely the Jews in the Toledan yeshivah knew Judeo-German.

Of course an academic language is not an organic language like a vernacular, and it's clear rabbinic Hebrew was used as a literary, academic language. But there's an added element if rabbinic Hebrew served as the language or instruction, which led to exchange and dialogue.

I don't have the expertise to adjudicate this question, but I wanted to pass on this theory to see if a) it's helpful in the discussion, and/or b) anyone has a comment on its feasibility.

Yours,

~joshua schwartz

Doctoral candidate

New York University

--

"The world endures only by virtue of the secret..."
~Zohar, 3:128a, Idra Rabba

[Ben Atlas]

Hi Joshua, in regards to Rosh you have to take it with a grain of
salt. The scholar of that magnitude doesn't need to "teach". The is
enough Loshen Kodesh and Aramaic to convey the idea. But I
specifically mentioned Tzfat which at the time was the center of
Jewish creativity mingling Jews from all backgrounds. It couldn't be
done in translation.

Same with the Shabbatean revival lead by Nathan of Gaza, Miguel Cardozo, etc.

Ben

>>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Ben Atlas <benjami...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> What language did the Jews speak to each other post Renaissance in the
>>>> Land of Israel?
>>>>
>>>> More specially. The time of Isaac Luria (Ari) , the second part of the
>>>> 16th century, the Kabbalistic Renaissance in Tzfat. The town was full
>>>> of Askenazim (half), who were born in Israel like Ari, Askenazim that
>>>> came to Tzfat from Europe. Sephardim that came from the Ottoman
>>>> empire and Italy, former Maranaos from Portugal and Europe, Sephardim
>>>> from North Africa, Jews from Egypt. What did they speak to each other
>>>> during the most fruitful 30-50 years in the Jewish millennium?
>>>>
>>>> Forward to the 17th century, I have the same question about Nathan
>>>> from Gaza. What did Nathan haGhazzati, an Ashkenazi from Jerusalem
>>>> spoke on his several tips to Italy, Ottoman lands, Egypt? What did he
>>>> speak when he lectured and preached about Sabbatai Zevi? What did he
>>>> speak while growing up in Jerusalem?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Ben
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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[Dan Nussbaum]

Ben,

How do you define "the Jewish millennium?

Daniel Nussbaum II, M.D., FAAP
Retired Developmental Pediatrician
Rochester, New York

Tone can be misinterpreted in email. Please read my words with warmth, kindness, and good intentions.

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[Joshua Schwartz]

Dear Ben,

Sorry for the rapid reply, I happened to be on the email...

The RaShBa helped the Rosh secure a job as a rabbi shortly after his arrival (go networking). It seems unlikely that he would not have sustained contact with the rabbinic elite of the city, especially given his "lofty" status. Else, how would he secure his stipend, which was the normal way for rabbis to subsist?

Indeed, it is precisely the Rosh's lofty status that would increase the possibility of his usage of some kind of Hebrew dialect, since Hebrew was the province of the scholarly elite. The merchant class had a higher incidence of functional literacy in the medieval and early modern periods, but I have yet to see any sustained evidence of a democratizing of access to Hebrew due to cultural interchange in the non-elites. 

I don't understand why Safed is the example you're focusing on. There were many Jewish ethnic enclaves in Ottoman Safed, each functioning, largely, within their own ambit. And as Prof. Hary noted above, the lingua franca seemed to be Judeo-Arabic. Someone being "Ashkenazi" meant little if they grew up in Egypt and then moved to Palestine, as the Arizal did.

There is plenty written on 16th century Palestine, focusing on the Galilee. I'd encourage you to check out the second chapter of Lawrence Fine's Physician of the Soul, Healer of the Cosmos, which is a fine summary of extant historical research about the area in the 16th century.

Cheers,

~joshua

>>>> an email to jewish-languages+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

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>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> "The world endures only by virtue of the secret..."
> ~Zohar, 3:128a, Idra Rabba
>
>

[Ben Atlas]

Hi Josh, Tzfat was unique. The authorship of Zohar is up for a debate
(Moshe DeLeon), but it's not up for a debate that in 30-50 years in
Tzfat there was the explosion of the "content" unmatched in Jewish
history for 1000 year before or till now.

The ideas of Tzimtzum, etc. that Ari fleshed out, it was all new.
There is no equal to the creative explosion that occurred in Tzfat.

This Moshe Idel lecture is worth a listen.
https://youtu.be/HhzI3ULjNNI

Prof. Idel breaks with his teacher Gershom Sholem who though that it
was all a response to the expulsion from Spain, instead Idel is
focusing on the Italian origins, even saying that it could have been a
response to translation of Zohar into Latin.

And in the end there is still the question, how did they speak to each other?

-Ben

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, Joshua Schwartz

>> >>>> an email to jewish-languag...@googlegroups.com.

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[Joshua Schwartz]

On Safed and the Kabbalistic renaissance, I'd encourage you to check out Solomon Schechter's classic 100 year old(!) essay, that still holds up, "Safed in the Sixteenth Century." Recently, Elliot Wolfson wrote and important follow up, which can be found here: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/620972

Re: the material and social history of what was occurring in Safed, I would again encourage you to read Fine's chapter. It's clear and very informative, chock full of where else to go.

I think I am going to tap out here. My field is Jewish mysticism (which i know way more about than languages), so if you'd like to discuss further on that front I'd be happy to discuss and share resources for your research.

>> >>>> an email to jewish-languages+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "The world endures only by virtue of the secret..."
>> > ~Zohar, 3:128a, Idra Rabba
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> "The world endures only by virtue of the secret..."
> ~Zohar, 3:128a, Idra Rabba
>
>

[Ora Schwarzwald]

Peopel spoke local languages, mainle spoken Arabic, as well as Jewish Languages such as Judeo-Spanish, Yiddish, Judeo-Arabic by the local Jewish communities.
Ora

======================================
Prof. Ora R. Schwarzwald
Hebrew and Semitic Languages
Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan, Israel 52900
Tel: 972-3-5325021 (home), 5318226/667 (office)
Fax: 972-3-7384192 (department)
e-mail: ora.sch...@biu.ac.il, ora.sch...@gmail.com
http://sites.google.com/site/oraschwarzwald
========================================