Measure words -- the amount of water that fits into two cupped hands

[David Pinto]

Excerpted from a post a number of years ago on Lowlands-L, a list dealing with such languages as Afrikaans, Dutch, English, Frisian, and Low Saxon        In Low Saxon, for instance, there is the measure word _göpsch_ denoting the    amount of something (e.g., water or berries) that fits into two cupped hands    held together.  That would be an example of a special measure.  I have never    come across an equivalent in another language. -0-   Given the blessing in Judaism for the washing of the hands, is there anything similar in Hebrew, Yiddish or Ladino?   David Pinto Montreal, Canada

[Simeon Baumel]

There is a measure "m'lo chofen", used by the priests in the temple measuring out the incense. this is the amount enclosed in the hand with the 3 middle fingers encasing it.

Does that count?

 

Shimon

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[Malka Muchnik]

And what about "kazayit" ('as an olive size')?
Malka

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[Malka Muchnik]

And what about "komets" (wthe amount between three fingers')?
Malka

On 4/8/12, Simeon Baumel <sdb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kazayit, kabeitza, kakotevet, etc, are not related to the human body, i.e.
> hands, etc.but are external measurements.
> On the other hand, there are the tefech, amah, m'lo hasit, etc. which are
> related to the hand and/or arm. but then, there are measurements in other
> systems which relate to the human body (the foot, for example).
>
> Shimon

[Simeon Baumel]

Kazayit, kabeitza, kakotevet, etc, are not related to the human body, i.e. hands, etc.but are external measurements.

On the other hand, there are the tefech, amah, m'lo hasit, etc. which are related to the hand and/or arm. but then, there are measurements in other systems which relate to the human body (the foot, for example).

 

Shimon

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Malka Muchnik <muc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Simeon Baumel]

That is m'lo chofen

 

Shimon

[Malka Muchnik]

I think komets is less than m'lo xofen, which implies the whole hand.
See e.g. katsar m'lo yado, talash m'lo kumtso.

[Simeon Baumel]

Either way, both are a lot less than even one cupped hand, not to speak of two.

 

Shimon

[Yishai Neuman]

In Isaiah 40.12, the term שֹׁעַל /šó‘al/ in the proposition מִי-מָדַד בְּשָׁעֳלוֹ מַיִם ‘Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand’ conveys a close meaning.

 

Yishai

De : Simeon Baumel <sdb...@gmail.com>
À : Malka Muchnik <muc...@gmail.com>
Cc : david_...@yahoo.ca; jewish-l...@googlegroups.com
Envoyé le : Dimanche 8 avril 2012 5h17
Objet : Re: [Jewish Languages] Measure words -- the amount of water that fits into two cupped hands

[Tamas Biro]

What about "handful" in English? And its synonyms in (probably) many
languages? (E.g., Hungarian "maroknyi".) True, it includes one hand only,
and is not necessarily used for water, but the idea is the same.

A "handful" is not necessarily a standardized measurement. But are the
words you have mentioned? (I mean, before they entered a rabbinic text to
be canonized, and so turned into normative expressions...)

Tamas

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Yishai Neuman wrote:

> Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 23:23:39 +0100 (BST)
> From: Yishai Neuman <yn...@yahoo.fr>
> To: "sdb...@gmail.com" <sdb...@gmail.com>, Malka Muchnik <muc...@gmail.com>
> Cc: "david_...@yahoo.ca" <david_...@yahoo.ca>,
> "jewish-l...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-l...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re : [Jewish Languages] Measure words -- the amount of water that

> fits into two cupped hands
>

> In Isaiah 40.12, the term שֹׁעַל/šó‘al/ in the proposition מִי-מָדַד בְּשָׁעֳלוֹ מַיִם‘Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand’ conveys a close meaning.
>  
> Yishai
>
>
>
> ________________________________

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[Bernard Spolsky]

Pesach is the time to recall that grandma knew precisely what a handful was.

b

On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Tamas Biro <bi...@nytud.hu> wrote:

What about "handful" in English? And its synonyms in (probably) many languages? (E.g., Hungarian "maroknyi".) True, it includes one hand only, and is not necessarily used for water, but the idea is the same.

A "handful" is not necessarily a standardized measurement. But are the words you have mentioned? (I mean, before they entered a rabbinic text to be canonized, and so turned into normative expressions...)

Tamas

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Yishai Neuman wrote:

Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 23:23:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Yishai Neuman <yn...@yahoo.fr>
To: "sdb...@gmail.com" <sdb...@gmail.com>, Malka Muchnik <muc...@gmail.com>
Cc: "david_...@yahoo.ca" <david_...@yahoo.ca>,

   "jewish-languages@googlegroups.com" <jewish-languages@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re : [Jewish Languages] Measure words -- the amount of water that
   fits into two cupped hands

In Isaiah 40.12, the term שֹׁעַל/šó‘al/ in the proposition מִי-מָדַד בְּשָׁעֳלוֹ מַיִם‘Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand’ conveys a close meaning.
 
Yishai



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[aqa...@facsl.com]

Tamas,

 

The Torah is not a rabbinic text. The word H ofen occurs in many Semitic languages (for example Akkadian Upnu, Phonecian H ofen, Aramaic H ofna, Arabic H ufna/ H afana) and in all of them means the cupped palm of the hand. The Biblical expression Melo’ H ofen means a handful, i.e., the amount one is able to hold in the cupped palm of the hand. In the Torah we find  the double-handful Melo’ H ofnayim meaning the amount one is able to hold in both cupped hands when held together side-by-side. Wayyiqra’ [Leviticus] 16:12 reads:

וְלָקַח מְלֹא-הַמַּחְתָּה גַּחֲלֵי-אֵשׁ מֵעַל הַמִּזְבֵּחַ מִלִּפְנֵי יהוָה וּמְלֹא חָפְנָיו קְטֹרֶת סַמִּים דַּקָּה וְהֵבִיא מִבֵּית לַפָּרֹכֶת 

 

Avraham 

[Tamas Biro]

Thanks, Avraham, for the correction. So you confirm that such measure
words had existed in Biblical Hebrew, too. The question remains: to what
measure was this expression (1) an ad hoc expression of measure (probably
not, if it existed in many other languages, too), (2) a vague measure word
(such as "handful" in English), or (3) a very precise measurement, as the
rabbinic literature has turned it into.

To give an example of what I mean: "a teaspoon" or "a thimbleful" must
have been originally an ad hoc creation. After a while, their use became
linguistically standardized. Unlike "a thimble", a "teaspoon" also became
a real measure word, at least in certain contexts (cookbooks), with a more
or less exact value. By now, as I have recently discovered thanks to my
wife, a "teaspoon" has even become so much standardized in a metrical
sense, too, that you find "teaspoon calculators" (Google says: 1 US
teaspoon = 4.92892159 milliliters.)

Tamas

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012, aqa...@facsl.com wrote:

> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 04:04:59 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "aqa...@facsl.com" <aqa...@facsl.com>
> To: "jewish-l...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-l...@googlegroups.com>,
> bi...@nytud.hu
> Subject: Re: Re : [Jewish Languages] Measure words -- the amount of water that