The wall of the separation of Church and State
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Mathew Enoch Mount
Oct 2, 2009, 3:33:55 AM10/2/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
Many Christian groups today proclaim the doctrine of the Wall of the
Separation of Church and State. They believe that in order to keep
themselves safe from defilement and free to practice their own
religion that they must keep religion out of politics. As a result
when someone whom is understanding of the scripture comes along and
tries to do the work of the gospel, then as a result many people of
different denominations get together and try to have that person
removed or rebel against him (this is not always the case but often is
the case).
Sooner or latter people in politics become more and more atheist and
ungodly and then the entire world becomes patterned after their
views. It is then their decision to say what goes on in schools, it
is then their decision what goes on in the work place, and it is their
decision on what happens in every place other than the church.
People with leadership positions are thus expected to close their
mouth about the scripture and the gospel as soon as they leave their
homes and as soon as their foot exits the church. I can even remember
a ordained minister that I am related to by Adam (not the news group
Adam) telling me, "you have to learn to keep your mouth shut" in
regard to even saying the slightest thing about Jesus in the work
place on my own break time for example.
Not only that but also the people not in leadership positions are
expected to be without any promotion of the gospel in the public
because if some would get offended then someone else in authority
would then have to step in and make a judgment. Not only that but
schools pay teachers to teach students in public schools out of tax
money, but if ever a teacher talked about the birth, death, and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, then that teacher may be permanently
removed in a elementary school before the end of the day. So many
parents would get offended and crises counselors may have to go to the
school to assess the situation because parents would be so outraged
because that is not exactly what they believe, and parents would not
want their children exposed that that kind of stuff. (just imagine
all the little agnostic kids crying when they realize that their sins
killed God)
The separation of church and state was practiced both in the Soviet
Union and in Nazi Germany, and the result was that people had been
free to worship their own way just as long as it was kept separate
from the state. In fact the Easter Orthodox church operated the
entire time in the open under the rain of the Soviet Union in Russia,
and it still operates in Russia today. The people that had been
tortured in Russia had been the people whom proclaimed Christianity
openly outside of the church.
Just ask yourself was the problem with Hitler that he was to fervent
about his Christian beliefs and then caused a bad situation, or was it
the case that Hitler was not Christian at all and as a result of
people wanting freedom of religion they put him in power because he
was not at all religious and thus in the popular view could judge
things from a non biased religious view (I believe that his party came
out of several hundred political parties in a democratic system). The
fact of the matter is that the lesson that we lean from Hitler is that
when we chose to be free from Christ’s rain over us so that we can
worship whatever we want freely it is at that time that many
unbelievers parish in the flames of an eternity in hell. I am not
writhing this to make myself a popular person or to gain prestige, but
I am writing this to tell the most unpopular message of all, ‘the
truth.’
When people bring you the gospel, and then tell you that you need to
keep it separate from something in your life then those people are
saying that you must learn the gospel but not practice it or that you
must believe in Christ but not let him rain in every aria of your
life. I in all honesty do not care what your political views are, but
whatever your views are the gospel must enter into all your view
regardless of what they are. By doing so you will be transformed to
become more and more like Christ.
Having said that let us consider why the Christians stopped
sacrificing at the temple and why they separated from the Jews, and
let us also consider the reason why the Jews separated for Egypt. The
popular explanation is that the Jews left Egypt out of protest of
their bondage and that God led them out through the protest for
freedom, and the popular message regarding why the Christians stopped
worshipping at the temple is because they realized that it was wrong
to do and that they should separate themselves from the Jews for
freedom from the law. The truth is and I can back this fully that the
Jews got driven out of Egypt by Pharaoh, and the Christians got driven
out of the temple and then got driven out of Jerusalem. Overall, the
practice of separating from something out of choice and then
protesting it is most often is evil because Christ and all the
apostles proclaimed the gospel in the open until either they got
thrown out, they got crucified, or no one would welcome their message
(no news is good news if it is forced upon people).
Despite the popular belief the message of the cross is not that Jesus
did what he did out of protest to free people by making them
Christian. Instead Jesus died on the cross to make the way for others
to be killed on the cross with him, and he made the way for everyone
to offer themselves up to God as a living sacrifice that God would be
acceptable (this is what brought people freedom). Now I am not saying
that we should seek crucifixion for our own glory, but instead we
should teach what God has taught us from the cross about being a good
king with a crown of thorns and by doing so we should be self
sacrificing of our talents in ways that invest the love of God wisely.
My point in all of this is that we should pray for those whom
persecute us just like Moses prayed for Pharaoh (this might appear
shocking but the scripture says it). It should be our desire to see
the wickedest people be saved like Saul in order that God may make his
power and glory known. Is it better for God to make a person whom
appears righteous to actually be righteous, or is it better for God to
make a person whom is an abomination to everyone because of their
wickedness into a Saint?
Having said all of this we should not choose for ourselves wicked
people to rule over us to judge between us because we cannot agree
about doctrine, and thus cause the disbelief of many and the
crucifixion of the saints. But at the same time we should not flee
crucifixion and settle with practicing the gospel in secret. Overall,
I find that the proper doctrine to govern both the church and the
state is to say that, "people may have many gods, but a nation and a
house should have only one god and the work of every believer is to
promote the one true God through investing all that we have wisely"
If what I say is taken to heart, then their will be much salvation by
the gospel even in the time of the antichrist because our work will
never be finished until God saves the very last one through us
bringing the gospel to them.
Do not throw your pearls to swine, but at the same time make wise
investments with your talents that the master gave you before going
away so that when he returns he may find that you have increased his
blessing. If you have a choice between crucifixion and religious
freedom in private, then your wisest investment is crucifixion because
either way you will parish from the earth and one way is fruitful and
the other is not (note the fruitful servants are put over much more
because he whom can be trusted with a little can be trusted with a
lot, but the non-fruitful servant is destroyed). If the apostles had
been intent with only worshipping their own God in private and
dressing themselves in Christian symbols, then no one would have
bothered them, their numbers would have only grown from birth, and
everyone would have hailed the doctrine of the separation of church
and state as being the greatest doctrine even if it lead to the
destruction of many.
You see just like today among atheist and agnostic secular leaders
Caesar believed himself to be God (atheists believe themselves to be
God, but they just don’t know it), but yet Rome allowed people to
worship their own gods. This was just like Jerusalem having a king on
the throne whom learned that Christ was born and so thus sent out men
to kill all the children under the age of two, but the problem is that
both Caesar and Herod saw themselves as divine authorities over
Christ. Overall, when the stoning for blasphemy occurs it should not
be like a mob of people whom look and find the woman in the act of
adultery and then bring her before Jesus for being stoned, but instead
it should be like using the staff against the wolf or wolf pack whom
has ganged up against the frightened bleating sheep.
Ask yourself why did Rachel steel her father’s idols, and why did
Israel take the idols of Egypt with them under God’s command. They
did this because when Rachel and Jacob’s house left the house of
Rachel’s father and when Israel left Egypt both Egypt and Rachel’s
father had been without a god to worship other than the true and
living God. Overall, the point is that every god that can be taken
away is not a real God, and not only that but also when we are made to
leave (by the unbeliever) we show the unbeliever their need for the
true and living God.
In conclusion we should not take Jesus out of the state, out of
politics, and out of our lives, but instead we should look at those
places that have no light and consider it a realm for our inheritance
through the cross conquering sin and death. When you bring the lamp
of Christ’s light into the darkness as you carry the staff to defend
against the wolves, then you are expanding the kingdom and by lighting
the lamps of others along the way you cause much darkness to flee.
When the day comes, the king will see your good works and say, "well
done my good and faithful servant."
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Many Christian groups today proclaim the doctrine of the Wall of the
Separation of Church and State. They believe that in order to keep
themselves safe from defilement and free to practice their own
religion that they must keep religion out of politics. As a result
when someone whom is understanding of the scripture comes along and
tries to do the work of the gospel, then as a result many people of
different denominations get together and try to have that person
removed or rebel against him (this is not always the case but often is
the case).
Sooner or latter people in politics become more and more atheist and
ungodly and then the entire world becomes patterned after their
views. It is then their decision to say what goes on in schools, it
is then their decision what goes on in the work place, and it is their
decision on what happens in every place other than the church.
People with leadership positions are thus expected to close their
mouth about the scripture and the gospel as soon as they leave their
homes and as soon as their foot exits the church. I can even remember
a ordained minister that I am related to by Adam (not the news group
Adam) telling me, "you have to learn to keep your mouth shut" in
regard to even saying the slightest thing about Jesus in the work
place on my own break time for example.
Not only that but also the people not in leadership positions are
expected to be without any promotion of the gospel in the public
because if some would get offended then someone else in authority
would then have to step in and make a judgment. Not only that but
schools pay teachers to teach students in public schools out of tax
money, but if ever a teacher talked about the birth, death, and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, then that teacher may be permanently
removed in a elementary school before the end of the day. So many
parents would get offended and crises counselors may have to go to the
school to assess the situation because parents would be so outraged
because that is not exactly what they believe, and parents would not
want their children exposed that that kind of stuff. (just imagine
all the little agnostic kids crying when they realize that their sins
killed God)
The separation of church and state was practiced both in the Soviet
Union and in Nazi Germany, and the result was that people had been
free to worship their own way just as long as it was kept separate
from the state. In fact the Easter Orthodox church operated the
entire time in the open under the rain of the Soviet Union in Russia,
and it still operates in Russia today. The people that had been
tortured in Russia had been the people whom proclaimed Christianity
openly outside of the church.
Just ask yourself was the problem with Hitler that he was to fervent
about his Christian beliefs and then caused a bad situation, or was it
the case that Hitler was not Christian at all and as a result of
people wanting freedom of religion they put him in power because he
was not at all religious and thus in the popular view could judge
things from a non biased religious view (I believe that his party came
out of several hundred political parties in a democratic system). The
fact of the matter is that the lesson that we lean from Hitler is that
when we chose to be free from Christ’s rain over us so that we can
worship whatever we want freely it is at that time that many
unbelievers parish in the flames of an eternity in hell. I am not
writhing this to make myself a popular person or to gain prestige, but
I am writing this to tell the most unpopular message of all, ‘the
truth.’
When people bring you the gospel, and then tell you that you need to
keep it separate from something in your life then those people are
saying that you must learn the gospel but not practice it or that you
must believe in Christ but not let him rain in every aria of your
life. I in all honesty do not care what your political views are, but
whatever your views are the gospel must enter into all your view
regardless of what they are. By doing so you will be transformed to
become more and more like Christ.
Having said that let us consider why the Christians stopped
sacrificing at the temple and why they separated from the Jews, and
let us also consider the reason why the Jews separated for Egypt. The
popular explanation is that the Jews left Egypt out of protest of
their bondage and that God led them out through the protest for
freedom, and the popular message regarding why the Christians stopped
worshipping at the temple is because they realized that it was wrong
to do and that they should separate themselves from the Jews for
freedom from the law. The truth is and I can back this fully that the
Jews got driven out of Egypt by Pharaoh, and the Christians got driven
out of the temple and then got driven out of Jerusalem. Overall, the
practice of separating from something out of choice and then
protesting it is most often is evil because Christ and all the
apostles proclaimed the gospel in the open until either they got
thrown out, they got crucified, or no one would welcome their message
(no news is good news if it is forced upon people).
Despite the popular belief the message of the cross is not that Jesus
did what he did out of protest to free people by making them
Christian. Instead Jesus died on the cross to make the way for others
to be killed on the cross with him, and he made the way for everyone
to offer themselves up to God as a living sacrifice that God would be
acceptable (this is what brought people freedom). Now I am not saying
that we should seek crucifixion for our own glory, but instead we
should teach what God has taught us from the cross about being a good
king with a crown of thorns and by doing so we should be self
sacrificing of our talents in ways that invest the love of God wisely.
My point in all of this is that we should pray for those whom
persecute us just like Moses prayed for Pharaoh (this might appear
shocking but the scripture says it). It should be our desire to see
the wickedest people be saved like Saul in order that God may make his
power and glory known. Is it better for God to make a person whom
appears righteous to actually be righteous, or is it better for God to
make a person whom is an abomination to everyone because of their
wickedness into a Saint?
Having said all of this we should not choose for ourselves wicked
people to rule over us to judge between us because we cannot agree
about doctrine, and thus cause the disbelief of many and the
crucifixion of the saints. But at the same time we should not flee
crucifixion and settle with practicing the gospel in secret. Overall,
I find that the proper doctrine to govern both the church and the
state is to say that, "people may have many gods, but a nation and a
house should have only one god and the work of every believer is to
promote the one true God through investing all that we have wisely"
If what I say is taken to heart, then their will be much salvation by
the gospel even in the time of the antichrist because our work will
never be finished until God saves the very last one through us
bringing the gospel to them.
Do not throw your pearls to swine, but at the same time make wise
investments with your talents that the master gave you before going
away so that when he returns he may find that you have increased his
blessing. If you have a choice between crucifixion and religious
freedom in private, then your wisest investment is crucifixion because
either way you will parish from the earth and one way is fruitful and
the other is not (note the fruitful servants are put over much more
because he whom can be trusted with a little can be trusted with a
lot, but the non-fruitful servant is destroyed). If the apostles had
been intent with only worshipping their own God in private and
dressing themselves in Christian symbols, then no one would have
bothered them, their numbers would have only grown from birth, and
everyone would have hailed the doctrine of the separation of church
and state as being the greatest doctrine even if it lead to the
destruction of many.
You see just like today among atheist and agnostic secular leaders
Caesar believed himself to be God (atheists believe themselves to be
God, but they just don’t know it), but yet Rome allowed people to
worship their own gods. This was just like Jerusalem having a king on
the throne whom learned that Christ was born and so thus sent out men
to kill all the children under the age of two, but the problem is that
both Caesar and Herod saw themselves as divine authorities over
Christ. Overall, when the stoning for blasphemy occurs it should not
be like a mob of people whom look and find the woman in the act of
adultery and then bring her before Jesus for being stoned, but instead
it should be like using the staff against the wolf or wolf pack whom
has ganged up against the frightened bleating sheep.
Ask yourself why did Rachel steel her father’s idols, and why did
Israel take the idols of Egypt with them under God’s command. They
did this because when Rachel and Jacob’s house left the house of
Rachel’s father and when Israel left Egypt both Egypt and Rachel’s
father had been without a god to worship other than the true and
living God. Overall, the point is that every god that can be taken
away is not a real God, and not only that but also when we are made to
leave (by the unbeliever) we show the unbeliever their need for the
true and living God.
In conclusion we should not take Jesus out of the state, out of
politics, and out of our lives, but instead we should look at those
places that have no light and consider it a realm for our inheritance
through the cross conquering sin and death. When you bring the lamp
of Christ’s light into the darkness as you carry the staff to defend
against the wolves, then you are expanding the kingdom and by lighting
the lamps of others along the way you cause much darkness to flee.
When the day comes, the king will see your good works and say, "well
done my good and faithful servant."
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
Oct 2, 2009, 11:16:58 AM10/2/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hi all:
About 10 years ago, I saw a documentary on TV. After some internet searching, I think it was called, Temple Troop. It was about monkeys living in the ruins of an old Buddhist temple.
The had an aging leader. He was a good leader who did not interfere too much in the actions of the other monkeys. As he was older, the strongest of the young monkeys rebelled against him. He was bad, but he managed to get the help - I forget why they helped him - perhaps competition from other tribes and because he was weaker - from many of the other young monkeys. I think they killed him.
The all got more than they bargained for when the evil monkey took over. Basically, he kept all the female monkeys for himself. So the others couldn't breed. The females didn't like him because he was too rough in sex. He was raping them.
Now the aging leader had had a son with the matriarch (head female) of the tribe. He was basically just a teenager (and not strong enough) when the coup happened.
He grew strong, and gained the allegience of the other monkeys - for the reasons described above. Eventually, with the help of the others, he took a rock to the head of the evil monkey. The evil one was wounded and banished to the outer line of their territory.
Just some basic thoughts on primate behavior. I think knowledge of this cycle has something to do with original sin.
Know the Lord,
Pete
ON EARTH Ministries
Oct 2, 2009, 4:45:27 PM10/2/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Fr. Mount –
I think I am going to have to disagree with you on this one, and not
for exactly the reasons you put forth. First and foremost, because I
think you may be writing based on contemporary circumstantial
observations rather than contextual historical understanding.
Meaning, it seems to me that you are commenting from your vantage
point, and not fully taking in to consideration the religious, or
political, climates beyond thirty years ago.
I think I am going to have to disagree with you on this one, and not
for exactly the reasons you put forth. First and foremost, because I
think you may be writing based on contemporary circumstantial
observations rather than contextual historical understanding.
Meaning, it seems to me that you are commenting from your vantage
point, and not fully taking in to consideration the religious, or
political, climates beyond thirty years ago.
In fact, let’s go their first. Prior to the rise of the New Right and
the politicization of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical movements,
the Liberal Church was the church of the state. We prayed and said
the Pledge of Allegiance, with “under God” which was added in the
1950s, and it was the “Libertarians” (conservative anarchists) and the
“pragmatic realists” (conservative scientists) that howled loudly
about religion in schools and government. They equated spirituality
with being romantic, poetic, and “just plain silly”.
It was our more liberal and compassionate mothers who took us to
church, and our more conservative fathers who stayed at home, by and
large.
And we won’t even visit here the uproar among conservatives over
Kennedy’s Catholicism.
You pegged me, though, when you mentioned the desire to keep one’s
faith “safe from defilement”. Although I have always thought it a
secular political ploy of conservative businessmen in politics to
promise religious freedom using the nomenclature of the pop culture
French social movement of the time. “Liberty”. Honestly now.
I am compelled to mention a statement I made a while back regarding
the Bread of Life and the Feces of Politics. Unfortunately, when
mixed, the bread does very little to improve the feces, and the feces
ruins the bread offering.
I also find it hard to understand how someone who believes in the
Living God incarnate, Jesus, who was martyred by a conspiracy between
organized religion and an occupying Western government, hadn’t
understood this very obvious lesson.
The truth is there are a lot more professing Christians in the world
today than there ever has been. More people own, and have read the
Bible than any other time in history. The secular interpretation of
the “golden rule” has led to an, all be it inadequate and incomplete,
consensus morality that values the welfare of “the widows, orphans,
and aliens”, via which is what God has been trying to inspire in man
since long before Solomon. Some might see that as a stretch.
But, if we are going to discuss stretches, let’s look at your
misinformation about Hitler. He was an extremely right-wing dictator
who used anti-Semitic rhetoric regarding the crucifixion of Jesus to
inflame the German people against the Jews. The State using the
Church. And when he was done, he immersed himself in Nordic paganism.
He used the terms “Democratic” and “Socialist” also, merely because
they were popular at the time.
Another Church and State story comes to mind when we consider the
beginnings of the Soviet Union. I don’t imagine the Bolsheviks would
have gained much momentum had the ultra-wealthy church and sanctioned
monarchy indifferently watched as the people starved and froze to
death. Literally. Communism was a misguided idealism that failed, in
a cruel and grotesque way, as it rejected the spiritual guidance of
God’s love, because of the crimes of the church and the Czar.
As far as not being able to practice or profess Christianity in the
work place, I work for the state, have a crucifix in my office, wear
clothing with a cross on them, and regularly have conversations
regarding my beliefs with both believers and non-believers. Converted
a few too. Occasionally I get a snide comment, but have found that
tact, compassion and calm reflection to be disarming and positive way
of sharing Christ.
The “inconvenient truth” of our time seems to be as old as the
betrayal of Christ: Christian’s worst enemies through history have
been other Christians. Note the pictures I attached. Those are the
cages Anabaptists were hung out to dry and die in. Their crimes?
Baptizing adults. Officially, possession of a Bible.
This seems to smack of evil: “(just imagine all the little agnostic
kids crying when they realize that their sins killed God)” But, I
will talk to you one on one about this.
Also, I will go through the second volumous half of this post later.
Love you all,
Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
Mathew Enoch Mount
Oct 2, 2009, 7:45:56 PM10/2/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
You really do not know how glad that I am to see you have posted on
this subject (you appear to really know a lot more about politics of
this world or the poop as you call it, and I say this not because I
agree with you but because I am excited about dialog regarding the
subject. You would have freedom to discuss the scripture in your
setting at the university as is the case with many public universities
across the nation, but this cannot be said in the same way about law
enforcement, retail establishments, primary and secondary education,
and most places that interact with the public in ways that could have
an influence on people’s lives. Overall, it is sad that people even
make a distinction between liberal and conservative, and I say this
having gone to both churches.
The fact of the matter is that at the place that I worked many people
including members of management told me that they for example wanted
to go to church and that they wanted to listen to my message, but my
business had a strict non fraternization policy and many would have
been fired if they would have decided to go to church instead of to
work all day on Saturday or Sunday. When I was fired, many members of
management had been upset about the situation and many of them said
that I did good work and that I should not have been fired. The fact
is that even through I have a total of six degrees, ten years in
college, and am highly skilled to do most any job I did the jobs that
no one else would do and I sometimes did them without even being
asked.
Because I did cleaning without complaint some people believed that I
like cleaning, and I can assure you that this is not the case. As a
result I was assigned to clean as this was a job that no one else
would do unless pressured, and I did this constantly. My title was MT
meaning Manager Trainee, and one day a worker whom only had a high
school education came by while I was serving a customer as he kicked
over my broom and said out of pride and hostility toward me, "you know
what MT stands for, Maintenance Technician." Overall, I prayed for
this man and we become friends.
The biggest reason why the company had a problem with me is because I
was asked if I believed in evolution, and I said no. The entire
company was built around this model as they would hire far more
workers than they needed, and then they would cut their hours and
watch to see the workers fight over their hours and then the company
would find the one who was fittest whom would survive out of the pack
and give him higher status. Overall, I was different in that if the
company gave us many workers, then I would want to see them all
succeed and work as a team in ways that did not cause competition
between them.
The popular message of the liberal church is that if we just love each
other, then we will be doing God’s work and we will show the world
Christianity. I am not saying like the popular message from the
conservative church that they are completely wrong, but what I am
saying is that their message is incomplete. Consider the following
passage, "Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good
thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what
is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want
to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man
inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal,
do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love
your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man
said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be
perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will
have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man
heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus
said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier
for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to
enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were
greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked
at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all
things are possible." Peter answered him, "We have left everything to
follow you! What then will there be for us?" Jesus said to them, "I
tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man
sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on
twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew
19:16-28 (NIV) Overall, my point in this is that in order to be
complete the rich man had to surrender everything to God and follow
Jesus for with man salvation is impossible, but with God all things
are possible. Also note that the text shows that love of God is most
important, and the text shows that love of man is only secondary to
the love of God.
The fact that two Christian groups emerged from the separation of the
liberals and the conservatives first of all shows that something is
really wrong because Christ only has one body. Secondly, the far
liberals focus on promoting loving each other only whereas the far
conservatives promote loving God only. The truth is that we can do
nothing to be saved because it is God that must love us first before
we can invest that love into others to increase or expand the kingdom;
moreover, as a result when the light enters us it is at that moment
that we become ablaze and cause the darkness to flee all around us
including in the aria of those around us.
The fact of the matter is that the kingdom of God is all about
politics because it is Christ whom is the King, but the way of the
king and his subjects is to be crucified rather than to crucify. The
way of worldly politics is to crucify until each group has proven
themselves right and has established their own order. Christ however
gives himself to be crucified even through he is God in order that
through love he may conquer the politics of this world and cause every
man to be held accountable to God through the polices of the King
(Christ).
Whom was the message of the cross for? Was it for the Jews? Was it
for the Gentiles? Was it for the Romans? The message of the cross
was for everyone whom heard it, and will hear it. Yet everyone whom
hears that message responds in faith, and are we to speak against them
for having heard the message and having responded to it? By how each
man responds to the message of the cross we know what he is, and most
importantly we know how to address him. When we address each man
according to his response to the cross we show not only our faith, but
we also show the politics of the kingdom of God emerging.
The problem with your bread and poop example Larry is that Saint Paul
addressed King Agrippa directly and then he appealed to address Caesar
directly, and thus we should not be put ourselves in the place of God
to decide for those people how they will respond in faith to the
message of the cross. If Caesar or Agrippa would have responded in
faith by saying, "I want to follow Christ, please show me the way",
then do you not have the faith Larry to believe that God would put the
gospel to work in their lives to cause each king to be a good king
that would rule out of love for the truth. Scripture gives the
following dialog between king Agrippa and Saint Paul after Saint Paul
gave the message of the gospel, "Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you
think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a
Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long—I pray God that not
only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am,
except for these chains."" Acts 26:28-29 (NIV)
Do not seek to put the gospel in chains.
On Oct 2, 3:45 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
You really do not know how glad that I am to see you have posted on
this subject (you appear to really know a lot more about politics of
this world or the poop as you call it, and I say this not because I
agree with you but because I am excited about dialog regarding the
subject. You would have freedom to discuss the scripture in your
setting at the university as is the case with many public universities
across the nation, but this cannot be said in the same way about law
enforcement, retail establishments, primary and secondary education,
and most places that interact with the public in ways that could have
an influence on people’s lives. Overall, it is sad that people even
make a distinction between liberal and conservative, and I say this
having gone to both churches.
The fact of the matter is that at the place that I worked many people
including members of management told me that they for example wanted
to go to church and that they wanted to listen to my message, but my
business had a strict non fraternization policy and many would have
been fired if they would have decided to go to church instead of to
work all day on Saturday or Sunday. When I was fired, many members of
management had been upset about the situation and many of them said
that I did good work and that I should not have been fired. The fact
is that even through I have a total of six degrees, ten years in
college, and am highly skilled to do most any job I did the jobs that
no one else would do and I sometimes did them without even being
asked.
Because I did cleaning without complaint some people believed that I
like cleaning, and I can assure you that this is not the case. As a
result I was assigned to clean as this was a job that no one else
would do unless pressured, and I did this constantly. My title was MT
meaning Manager Trainee, and one day a worker whom only had a high
school education came by while I was serving a customer as he kicked
over my broom and said out of pride and hostility toward me, "you know
what MT stands for, Maintenance Technician." Overall, I prayed for
this man and we become friends.
The biggest reason why the company had a problem with me is because I
was asked if I believed in evolution, and I said no. The entire
company was built around this model as they would hire far more
workers than they needed, and then they would cut their hours and
watch to see the workers fight over their hours and then the company
would find the one who was fittest whom would survive out of the pack
and give him higher status. Overall, I was different in that if the
company gave us many workers, then I would want to see them all
succeed and work as a team in ways that did not cause competition
between them.
The popular message of the liberal church is that if we just love each
other, then we will be doing God’s work and we will show the world
Christianity. I am not saying like the popular message from the
conservative church that they are completely wrong, but what I am
saying is that their message is incomplete. Consider the following
passage, "Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good
thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what
is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want
to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man
inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal,
do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love
your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man
said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be
perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will
have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man
heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus
said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier
for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to
enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were
greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked
at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all
things are possible." Peter answered him, "We have left everything to
follow you! What then will there be for us?" Jesus said to them, "I
tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man
sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on
twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew
19:16-28 (NIV) Overall, my point in this is that in order to be
complete the rich man had to surrender everything to God and follow
Jesus for with man salvation is impossible, but with God all things
are possible. Also note that the text shows that love of God is most
important, and the text shows that love of man is only secondary to
the love of God.
The fact that two Christian groups emerged from the separation of the
liberals and the conservatives first of all shows that something is
really wrong because Christ only has one body. Secondly, the far
liberals focus on promoting loving each other only whereas the far
conservatives promote loving God only. The truth is that we can do
nothing to be saved because it is God that must love us first before
we can invest that love into others to increase or expand the kingdom;
moreover, as a result when the light enters us it is at that moment
that we become ablaze and cause the darkness to flee all around us
including in the aria of those around us.
The fact of the matter is that the kingdom of God is all about
politics because it is Christ whom is the King, but the way of the
king and his subjects is to be crucified rather than to crucify. The
way of worldly politics is to crucify until each group has proven
themselves right and has established their own order. Christ however
gives himself to be crucified even through he is God in order that
through love he may conquer the politics of this world and cause every
man to be held accountable to God through the polices of the King
(Christ).
Whom was the message of the cross for? Was it for the Jews? Was it
for the Gentiles? Was it for the Romans? The message of the cross
was for everyone whom heard it, and will hear it. Yet everyone whom
hears that message responds in faith, and are we to speak against them
for having heard the message and having responded to it? By how each
man responds to the message of the cross we know what he is, and most
importantly we know how to address him. When we address each man
according to his response to the cross we show not only our faith, but
we also show the politics of the kingdom of God emerging.
The problem with your bread and poop example Larry is that Saint Paul
addressed King Agrippa directly and then he appealed to address Caesar
directly, and thus we should not be put ourselves in the place of God
to decide for those people how they will respond in faith to the
message of the cross. If Caesar or Agrippa would have responded in
faith by saying, "I want to follow Christ, please show me the way",
then do you not have the faith Larry to believe that God would put the
gospel to work in their lives to cause each king to be a good king
that would rule out of love for the truth. Scripture gives the
following dialog between king Agrippa and Saint Paul after Saint Paul
gave the message of the gospel, "Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you
think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a
Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long—I pray God that not
only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am,
except for these chains."" Acts 26:28-29 (NIV)
Do not seek to put the gospel in chains.
On Oct 2, 3:45 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
Mathew Enoch Mount
Oct 3, 2009, 12:07:09 AM10/3/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
I think that the story of the monkeys in the temple really has a lot
to do with the struggles for power in the church. The message is that
the monkeys all needed a whole lot of gospel proclaimed. This is why
Jesus was born, died, and rose from the dead.
The birth of Jesus Christ caused people to have God revealed to them.
Jesus Christ was killed in order that our sins may be atoned for.
Jesus rose from the dead in order to take his place as king so that he
would rule over all the earth and shepherd us.
You see if the light had entered just one of the monkeys, then God
would be revealing himself through that monkey to the other monkeys.
When the monkeys that hated the light crucified him as a innocent
monkey, then the other monkeys would realize truly whom Christ the
King is. Then that monkey whom would be killed would be risen with
Christ to judge on a throne as well, and then it would cause many whom
killed that money to have the light enter them as well and cause them
to proclaim the gospel and be crucified as well. Overall, the result
is that eventually the kingdom of the monkeys becomes the kingdom of
God on Earth.
I think that the story of the monkeys in the temple really has a lot
to do with the struggles for power in the church. The message is that
the monkeys all needed a whole lot of gospel proclaimed. This is why
Jesus was born, died, and rose from the dead.
The birth of Jesus Christ caused people to have God revealed to them.
Jesus Christ was killed in order that our sins may be atoned for.
Jesus rose from the dead in order to take his place as king so that he
would rule over all the earth and shepherd us.
You see if the light had entered just one of the monkeys, then God
would be revealing himself through that monkey to the other monkeys.
When the monkeys that hated the light crucified him as a innocent
monkey, then the other monkeys would realize truly whom Christ the
King is. Then that monkey whom would be killed would be risen with
Christ to judge on a throne as well, and then it would cause many whom
killed that money to have the light enter them as well and cause them
to proclaim the gospel and be crucified as well. Overall, the result
is that eventually the kingdom of the monkeys becomes the kingdom of
God on Earth.
On Oct 2, 10:16 am, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> About 10 years ago, I saw a documentary on TV. After some internet
> searching, I think it was called, *Temple Troop*. It was about monkeys
> Hi all:
>
> About 10 years ago, I saw a documentary on TV. After some internet
ON EARTH Ministries
Oct 3, 2009, 5:05:38 PM10/3/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Now that is truly funny!
Sort of a Planet of the Apes Parable!
I had mentioned I was interested in "Christian Guerrilla Theater"!
I really want to comment on your previous post on the string, but had
to collect myself enough to tell you how much I appreciate this
radical new way of teaching the Gospel that is both "green", and
evolution friendly!
Sort of a Planet of the Apes Parable!
I had mentioned I was interested in "Christian Guerrilla Theater"!
I really want to comment on your previous post on the string, but had
to collect myself enough to tell you how much I appreciate this
radical new way of teaching the Gospel that is both "green", and
evolution friendly!
If you can tell stories like that in public, you will certainly fill the pews!
Father Mathew, you are an uncompromisingly unique clergyman, and I
imagine that must give our Father a lot of Joy!
Peace, Love and Understanding,
in His Name,
--
Mathew Enoch Mount
Oct 3, 2009, 9:53:08 PM10/3/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
One of the most important, if not the most important, messages came to
me last night (I will explain it very briefly although it would take a
lifetime to come close to showing all the details worked out). The
reason why the church is the way it is today with its broken and
divided nature is because we are either missing a sacrament or not
understanding it when we do have it. The sacrament of the washing of
the feet is perhaps the most important sacrament of our times, and if
understood and applied correctly then we will have no more division in
the church.
First of all the difference between the confession of the eleven and
Judas in reference to whom would betray Christ was that Judas said,
"surly not I Rabbi" (meaning teacher) whereas the others said, "surly
not I Lord." Matthew 26:25 (NIV) Jesus says that he is both Lord and
teacher John 13:13, but the faith of Judas was to only acknowledge him
as teacher (this is full of meaning). Overall, I will demonstrate how
this relates to the sacrament of the washing of the feet, and by doing
so I think that you will agree that the faith of Judas had
historically lead the church astray.
First of all remember the prostitute that anointed Jesus; moreover, we
should really mediate upon this because in the old testament people
had been anointed to office by either God directly or by the profit.
The message of the prostitute was that she did not anoint the head of
Jesus but instead the feet, and by doing so she surrendered all that
she had to Jesus as one whom offers themselves as a living sacrifice
to the lord. The reason why she anointed the feet and not the head is
because first of all she did not have lordship over Christ to do so,
and secondly what Jesus did was much more important than what he
said. Overall, the response of the prostitute to having been given
faith by God directly (and we know that she was given faith by God
directly because the apostles did not even understand what she was
doing so the faith did not come from them) was to wash the feet of
Jesus by her hair and brake everything that she had to offer at his
feet to become a living sacrifice, and just like the Romans crucified
Jesus so too Judas crucified the woman saying, you could have sold the
perfume because it costs a years wages and given the money to the poor
as Judas said this because he held the money bag and often helped
himself to it.
Although the 7 day festival of unleavened bread happened after
Passover (Passover being fulfilled in communion), it was the last
seven days of Jesus ministry on earth that brought the covenant in
these seven days of restoration (parallel to the seven days of
creation), so that we may get rid of the old yeast and start out with
a new lump like the Israelites did when they had been driven from
Egypt. The fact is that the washing of the feet by Jesus washing the
disciples happened through water as a continual renewal of baptism,
and this shows the act of being made clean in preparation for
receiving the blood of the covenant (also note that both water and
blood came out of Jesus when he was stabbed with the sphere).
Overall, we really need to take a extensive look at the sacrament of
the washing of the feet.
Consider the following scripture, "It was just before the Passover
Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world
and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he
now showed them the full extent of his love. The evening meal was
being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son
of Simon, to betray Jesus. Jesus knew that the Father had put all
things under his power, and that he had come from God and was
returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer
clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured
water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them
with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter,
who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" Jesus
replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will
understand." "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus
answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me." "Then,
Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head
as well!" Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to
wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not
every one of you." For he knew who was going to betray him, and that
was why he said not every one was clean. When he had finished washing
their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you
understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. "You call me
'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that
I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash
one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I
have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than
his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now
that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John
13:1-17 (NIV) Overall, the sacrament of the washing of the feet by
the water shows God brining the covenant to us and administering it to
our feet (the evangelist and evangelical quality in us gets this water
because this is what dirt of the world adheres to is the feet of
Christ’s body), and note that we are to wash each other’s feet just as
Christ has done as this unifies the body of Christ so that no one
proclaims themselves greater than another through their teaching but
instead the power of God reveals to everyone their greatness through
their faith being expressed (like the prostitute).
We thus wash each other’s feet when we offer ourselves as living
scarifies before the lord as we invest the love of God wisely through
investing our talents into others. By this practice a seed must first
die and enter the ground or tome before it can produce any fruit to be
risen with Christ. Overall, when we are risen through Christ by
faith, we as the seed that has offered our selves by faith as a living
sacrifice before the Lord thus rejoice in the in gathering of the
fruit of God.
My suggestion is that the way that the sacrament of the washing of the
feet be practiced in the church and in the state is that during bible
study prior to communion and during diplomatic missions prior to
having arrived at a resolution the one in charge should wash
everyone’s feet while communicating the message of the gospel, and if
this is practiced than the one whom is greatest occurs only through
service. I had been encouraged through the Department of State to
consider pursuing a position as a Diplomat in Residence as a Economic
Officer, but I like many of you did not understand the full message of
the gospel and as a result I did not pursue the issue because I did
not think that I had anything of real value to offer that would make
anything better. Overall, the two swords that the apostles took up
prior to the Crucifixion I do not think represent the doctrine of the
two swords taught by the church necessarily, but instead it shows the
need for the rod and the staff as a result of Christ having gone from
them (when Christ was with them he held both the rod and the staff but
when he went away he had to leave both in the hands of the disciples
whom misused them in cutting of the ear of the soldier).
When we introduce the sacrament of the washing of the feet into our
understanding and practice in using both swards, then we defend and
promote the kingdom correctly. We do this by first of all killing the
wolf or wolf pack that is out to attack the sheep, and we do this
secondly by slaying the evil spirits that are on our feet from us
having gone as workers of the kingdom into a corrupt world to promote
the kingdom. Overall, the shepherd of the flock thus by washing the
feet of his sheep continually renews their baptism such that the
Israelites are cleaned from the dirt of Egypt on their feet and
Pharaoh’s army parishes in the sea.
On Oct 3, 4:05 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
One of the most important, if not the most important, messages came to
me last night (I will explain it very briefly although it would take a
lifetime to come close to showing all the details worked out). The
reason why the church is the way it is today with its broken and
divided nature is because we are either missing a sacrament or not
understanding it when we do have it. The sacrament of the washing of
the feet is perhaps the most important sacrament of our times, and if
understood and applied correctly then we will have no more division in
the church.
First of all the difference between the confession of the eleven and
Judas in reference to whom would betray Christ was that Judas said,
"surly not I Rabbi" (meaning teacher) whereas the others said, "surly
not I Lord." Matthew 26:25 (NIV) Jesus says that he is both Lord and
teacher John 13:13, but the faith of Judas was to only acknowledge him
as teacher (this is full of meaning). Overall, I will demonstrate how
this relates to the sacrament of the washing of the feet, and by doing
so I think that you will agree that the faith of Judas had
historically lead the church astray.
First of all remember the prostitute that anointed Jesus; moreover, we
should really mediate upon this because in the old testament people
had been anointed to office by either God directly or by the profit.
The message of the prostitute was that she did not anoint the head of
Jesus but instead the feet, and by doing so she surrendered all that
she had to Jesus as one whom offers themselves as a living sacrifice
to the lord. The reason why she anointed the feet and not the head is
because first of all she did not have lordship over Christ to do so,
and secondly what Jesus did was much more important than what he
said. Overall, the response of the prostitute to having been given
faith by God directly (and we know that she was given faith by God
directly because the apostles did not even understand what she was
doing so the faith did not come from them) was to wash the feet of
Jesus by her hair and brake everything that she had to offer at his
feet to become a living sacrifice, and just like the Romans crucified
Jesus so too Judas crucified the woman saying, you could have sold the
perfume because it costs a years wages and given the money to the poor
as Judas said this because he held the money bag and often helped
himself to it.
Although the 7 day festival of unleavened bread happened after
Passover (Passover being fulfilled in communion), it was the last
seven days of Jesus ministry on earth that brought the covenant in
these seven days of restoration (parallel to the seven days of
creation), so that we may get rid of the old yeast and start out with
a new lump like the Israelites did when they had been driven from
Egypt. The fact is that the washing of the feet by Jesus washing the
disciples happened through water as a continual renewal of baptism,
and this shows the act of being made clean in preparation for
receiving the blood of the covenant (also note that both water and
blood came out of Jesus when he was stabbed with the sphere).
Overall, we really need to take a extensive look at the sacrament of
the washing of the feet.
Consider the following scripture, "It was just before the Passover
Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world
and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he
now showed them the full extent of his love. The evening meal was
being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son
of Simon, to betray Jesus. Jesus knew that the Father had put all
things under his power, and that he had come from God and was
returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer
clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured
water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them
with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter,
who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" Jesus
replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will
understand." "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus
answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me." "Then,
Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head
as well!" Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to
wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not
every one of you." For he knew who was going to betray him, and that
was why he said not every one was clean. When he had finished washing
their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you
understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. "You call me
'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that
I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash
one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I
have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than
his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now
that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John
13:1-17 (NIV) Overall, the sacrament of the washing of the feet by
the water shows God brining the covenant to us and administering it to
our feet (the evangelist and evangelical quality in us gets this water
because this is what dirt of the world adheres to is the feet of
Christ’s body), and note that we are to wash each other’s feet just as
Christ has done as this unifies the body of Christ so that no one
proclaims themselves greater than another through their teaching but
instead the power of God reveals to everyone their greatness through
their faith being expressed (like the prostitute).
We thus wash each other’s feet when we offer ourselves as living
scarifies before the lord as we invest the love of God wisely through
investing our talents into others. By this practice a seed must first
die and enter the ground or tome before it can produce any fruit to be
risen with Christ. Overall, when we are risen through Christ by
faith, we as the seed that has offered our selves by faith as a living
sacrifice before the Lord thus rejoice in the in gathering of the
fruit of God.
My suggestion is that the way that the sacrament of the washing of the
feet be practiced in the church and in the state is that during bible
study prior to communion and during diplomatic missions prior to
having arrived at a resolution the one in charge should wash
everyone’s feet while communicating the message of the gospel, and if
this is practiced than the one whom is greatest occurs only through
service. I had been encouraged through the Department of State to
consider pursuing a position as a Diplomat in Residence as a Economic
Officer, but I like many of you did not understand the full message of
the gospel and as a result I did not pursue the issue because I did
not think that I had anything of real value to offer that would make
anything better. Overall, the two swords that the apostles took up
prior to the Crucifixion I do not think represent the doctrine of the
two swords taught by the church necessarily, but instead it shows the
need for the rod and the staff as a result of Christ having gone from
them (when Christ was with them he held both the rod and the staff but
when he went away he had to leave both in the hands of the disciples
whom misused them in cutting of the ear of the soldier).
When we introduce the sacrament of the washing of the feet into our
understanding and practice in using both swards, then we defend and
promote the kingdom correctly. We do this by first of all killing the
wolf or wolf pack that is out to attack the sheep, and we do this
secondly by slaying the evil spirits that are on our feet from us
having gone as workers of the kingdom into a corrupt world to promote
the kingdom. Overall, the shepherd of the flock thus by washing the
feet of his sheep continually renews their baptism such that the
Israelites are cleaned from the dirt of Egypt on their feet and
Pharaoh’s army parishes in the sea.
On Oct 3, 4:05 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
Peter VanGee
Oct 5, 2009, 2:34:22 PM10/5/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hi Matt:
I'll give you a different interpretation. If the serpent is a human collective as I've maintained. It, being the cleverist of creatures, would recognize that pattern. A cycle of power - a tree of life... Recognizing it, it wouldn't be hard to take over. Kind of like stealing candy from a baby...to the point where the sons of men (outnumbered 1000:1)are rendered powerless...God steps in...and our Kingdom becomes a kingdom of the Spirit.
Original sin isn't so much inherited as it it passed on from generation to generation by physical strength. Consider what Jesus says in regard to children. They are corrupted.
Know the Lord,
Pete
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