Salvation Army - Holy Violence
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Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 6, 2009, 4:13:05 AM11/6/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
I want to clarify regarding the points of Peter regarding Nineveh that
in many ways he is correct, but what Nineveh teaches us more than
anything is repentance and the right that the Christian church has for
that is baptism. Jesus says, "learn what this means, I desire mercy
not sacrifice." I do not believe that everyone whom is baptized will
be saved because the Israelites went under the waters and Pharaoh’s
army also went under the waters, but the Israelites lived because of
the waters whereas Pharaoh’s army died because of the waters.
Prior to Egypt going under the waters the blood of the lamb caused
death to pass over the Israelites but not the Egyptians. The blood
thus is what atoned for the sins not the water. Yet we only truly
know that we are saved when the Holy Ghost is inside of us because at
that time we have the seal or the deposit of God’s work within us as a
guarantee. 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-15,
and 2 Timothy 1:13-14.
Thus the believer says in his heart that the spirit, the blood and the
water all testify according to this one truth regarding our salvation
and they are in one accord. 1 John 5:1-9
Their is a incredible evil that we must be aware of, and that we must
be on our guard against. Consider the following passage, "When men
began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to
them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful,
and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My
Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days
will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth
in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the
daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of
old, men of renown. The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the
earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his
heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had
made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the
LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of
the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground,
and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." Genesis
6:1-7 (NIV) You might ask, "how does this relate to anything?"
According to Genesis prior to the flood the entire land was filled
with violence. These sons of God administered the justice and kingdom
of God as sons of God just as we whom believe in Christ are sons and
daughters of God and administer the kingdom through being a kingdom of
priests, but the difference is that the sons of God in Genesis
obviously had been forbidden to marry the daughters of man. This is
because the Sons of God had been a different kind of creation.
Thus when the fallen angles and the daughters of man married and gave
birth to the nephilim it was these nephilim that became the heroes of
old by causing the violence that brought the flood on all mankind. In
fact the fallen angels even desired Eve because it was the serpent
that said, did God really say not to eat of the fruit and he also said
you will be like Gods knowing both good and evil. The serpent had
within him a fallen angel that desired Eve otherwise what would his
motivation have been?
In order to understand the use of holy violence in scripture we must
understand the salvation army, and the first great foreshadowing of
Armageddon. In Genesis 14 (NIV) we read the following, "At this time
Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of
Elam and Tidal king of Goiim went to war against Bera king of Sodom,
Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of
Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). All these latter kings
joined forces in the Valley of Siddim (the Salt Sea). For twelve
years they had been subject to Kedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year
they rebelled. In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings
allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth
Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the
Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the
desert. Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is,
Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as
well as the Amorites who were living in Hazazon Tamar. Then the king
of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim
and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and drew up their
battle lines in the Valley of Siddim against Kedorlaomer king of Elam,
Tidal king of Goiim, Amraphel king of Shinar and Arioch king of Ellasar
—four kings against five. Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar
pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men
fell into them and the rest fled to the hills. The four kings seized
all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food; then they went
away. They also carried off Abram's nephew Lot and his possessions,
since he was living in Sodom. One who had escaped came and reported
this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the great trees of
Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshcol and Aner, all of whom were
allied with Abram. When Abram heard that his relative had been taken
captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and
went in pursuit as far as Dan. During the night Abram divided his men
to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah,
north of Damascus. He recovered all the goods and brought back his
relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the
other people. After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the
kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the
Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). Then Melchizedek king
of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,
and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who
delivered your enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave him a tenth
of everything. The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people
and keep the goods for yourself." But Abram said to the king of
Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of
heaven and earth, and have taken an oath that I will accept nothing
belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that
you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.' I will accept
nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the
men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their
share." If you look closely the only reason why Abram entered the war
to begin with was to rescue Lot whom he was closely related to and
whom he lived with for many years and loved, and when Abram entered
the war it was a deciding factor that ended the war. According to
scripture Christ is of the order of Melchizedek, and Melchizedek was
both priest and king of Salem now known as Jerusalem. Notice that
Abraham was very clear that although he had communion with Melchizedek
he made absolutely clear that he would not take any plunder or reward
for having fought in the war. In other words the only reason and the
only reward for fighting in the war was the ‘salvation’ of Lot.
Having said that we are to be the Salvation Army, and we are not to be
like the Nephilim or like the sons of God mentioned in Genesis. I am
not condemning communion with the saints because when we commune with
the saints in the blood of the lamb, then we enjoy the company of the
family of God. Nor am I condemning being overshadowed by the Holy
Ghost whom contains those whom commune in the blood of the lamb (the
body of Christ). I however am saying that those whom are outside of
the blood of the lamb whom from as far back as Genesis desired union
with man we should be on our guard against because they are the fallen
angels (Abraham went to war and brought violence but he was different
from them because like Christ being killed on the cross his entire
purpose for battle was to rescue Lot).
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
I want to clarify regarding the points of Peter regarding Nineveh that
in many ways he is correct, but what Nineveh teaches us more than
anything is repentance and the right that the Christian church has for
that is baptism. Jesus says, "learn what this means, I desire mercy
not sacrifice." I do not believe that everyone whom is baptized will
be saved because the Israelites went under the waters and Pharaoh’s
army also went under the waters, but the Israelites lived because of
the waters whereas Pharaoh’s army died because of the waters.
Prior to Egypt going under the waters the blood of the lamb caused
death to pass over the Israelites but not the Egyptians. The blood
thus is what atoned for the sins not the water. Yet we only truly
know that we are saved when the Holy Ghost is inside of us because at
that time we have the seal or the deposit of God’s work within us as a
guarantee. 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-15,
and 2 Timothy 1:13-14.
Thus the believer says in his heart that the spirit, the blood and the
water all testify according to this one truth regarding our salvation
and they are in one accord. 1 John 5:1-9
Their is a incredible evil that we must be aware of, and that we must
be on our guard against. Consider the following passage, "When men
began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to
them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful,
and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My
Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days
will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth
in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the
daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of
old, men of renown. The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the
earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his
heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had
made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the
LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of
the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground,
and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." Genesis
6:1-7 (NIV) You might ask, "how does this relate to anything?"
According to Genesis prior to the flood the entire land was filled
with violence. These sons of God administered the justice and kingdom
of God as sons of God just as we whom believe in Christ are sons and
daughters of God and administer the kingdom through being a kingdom of
priests, but the difference is that the sons of God in Genesis
obviously had been forbidden to marry the daughters of man. This is
because the Sons of God had been a different kind of creation.
Thus when the fallen angles and the daughters of man married and gave
birth to the nephilim it was these nephilim that became the heroes of
old by causing the violence that brought the flood on all mankind. In
fact the fallen angels even desired Eve because it was the serpent
that said, did God really say not to eat of the fruit and he also said
you will be like Gods knowing both good and evil. The serpent had
within him a fallen angel that desired Eve otherwise what would his
motivation have been?
In order to understand the use of holy violence in scripture we must
understand the salvation army, and the first great foreshadowing of
Armageddon. In Genesis 14 (NIV) we read the following, "At this time
Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of
Elam and Tidal king of Goiim went to war against Bera king of Sodom,
Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of
Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). All these latter kings
joined forces in the Valley of Siddim (the Salt Sea). For twelve
years they had been subject to Kedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year
they rebelled. In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings
allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth
Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the
Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the
desert. Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is,
Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as
well as the Amorites who were living in Hazazon Tamar. Then the king
of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim
and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and drew up their
battle lines in the Valley of Siddim against Kedorlaomer king of Elam,
Tidal king of Goiim, Amraphel king of Shinar and Arioch king of Ellasar
—four kings against five. Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar
pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men
fell into them and the rest fled to the hills. The four kings seized
all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food; then they went
away. They also carried off Abram's nephew Lot and his possessions,
since he was living in Sodom. One who had escaped came and reported
this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the great trees of
Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshcol and Aner, all of whom were
allied with Abram. When Abram heard that his relative had been taken
captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and
went in pursuit as far as Dan. During the night Abram divided his men
to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah,
north of Damascus. He recovered all the goods and brought back his
relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the
other people. After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the
kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the
Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). Then Melchizedek king
of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,
and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who
delivered your enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave him a tenth
of everything. The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people
and keep the goods for yourself." But Abram said to the king of
Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of
heaven and earth, and have taken an oath that I will accept nothing
belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that
you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.' I will accept
nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the
men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their
share." If you look closely the only reason why Abram entered the war
to begin with was to rescue Lot whom he was closely related to and
whom he lived with for many years and loved, and when Abram entered
the war it was a deciding factor that ended the war. According to
scripture Christ is of the order of Melchizedek, and Melchizedek was
both priest and king of Salem now known as Jerusalem. Notice that
Abraham was very clear that although he had communion with Melchizedek
he made absolutely clear that he would not take any plunder or reward
for having fought in the war. In other words the only reason and the
only reward for fighting in the war was the ‘salvation’ of Lot.
Having said that we are to be the Salvation Army, and we are not to be
like the Nephilim or like the sons of God mentioned in Genesis. I am
not condemning communion with the saints because when we commune with
the saints in the blood of the lamb, then we enjoy the company of the
family of God. Nor am I condemning being overshadowed by the Holy
Ghost whom contains those whom commune in the blood of the lamb (the
body of Christ). I however am saying that those whom are outside of
the blood of the lamb whom from as far back as Genesis desired union
with man we should be on our guard against because they are the fallen
angels (Abraham went to war and brought violence but he was different
from them because like Christ being killed on the cross his entire
purpose for battle was to rescue Lot).
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
ON EARTH Ministries
Nov 6, 2009, 5:01:22 PM11/6/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Brother Mathew!
Three pages Mat, three. Have you thought of the fact that you have
probably posted more words in this group than is recorded from Jesus’
ministry?
I’m trying to figure out your intent here. Are you lamenting the
passing of sparing partner, or just feeling bad about beating him with
words for the last six months? Surely you are not trying to justify
war, violence and aggression by going “Old Testament” on our donkeys,
are you?
Remember the guy we follow? “Prince of Peace”? You know, the guy so
gentle and perfect he was like a “Lamb of God”? Sound familiar, my
Hebrew fixated friend?
This is another post as dense and heavy with meaning and
interpretation. One that can only be digested a bite at a time. I’m
convinced you either expect us to be so tired from the chewing that we
won’t have much to say back, or you expect us to just choke on it like
a bunch of heretics. It wouldn’t be that you are just trying to
impress us with your knowledge, are you?
Having said all of this, I don’t disagree with ALL you’ve said. Just
some of the conclusions, and the ancient, and sometimes baroque,
ornamentally stylized way you say it. But please don’t use ancient
history and the trials and tribulations of the poor unfortunate
Hebrews to justify diametrically apposing Jesus.
Peas, and all Good Things,
Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
Mathew Enoch Mount
Nov 6, 2009, 5:43:23 PM11/6/09
to Jesus On the Web
Hello,
I am neither lamenting nor am I happy regarding Peter no longer
posting on the news group for a while. I however wanted to take the
opportunity to explain what I saw in the conversations that we had in
the news group, and I wanted to give warning regarding the context of
our spiritual battles. You might say that Abraham opposed Christ by
rescuing Lot whom he loved and thus by entering the war, but this is
not the case at all because Abraham entered the World War and settled
it once and for all in order to rescue the lost sheep (Lot).
We must remember that one of the disciples was a zealot (Mark 3:18)
his name was Simon. This however does not promote what the zealots
did nor does it promote war, but instead it teaches us that Simon
would have been interested in God’s justice especially when he
approached Christ. According to scripture God uses war to judge
between nations, and we should not seek judgment just as we should not
throw the stone at the woman whom was found in the act of committing
adultery.
Their are two reasons to go to war according to scripture one is to
ensure our inheritance and the other is to reclaim the lost sheep.
King David whom Christ sits on the throne of understood both of these
motivations for protecting and advancing the kingdom. The difference
with Christ in the New Testament is that now our inheritance and the
lost sheep are more of a spiritual matter than had ever before been
realized so to speak, and that is why the zealots fell short because
they battled with flesh and blood.
On Nov 6, 4:01 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
I am neither lamenting nor am I happy regarding Peter no longer
posting on the news group for a while. I however wanted to take the
opportunity to explain what I saw in the conversations that we had in
the news group, and I wanted to give warning regarding the context of
our spiritual battles. You might say that Abraham opposed Christ by
rescuing Lot whom he loved and thus by entering the war, but this is
not the case at all because Abraham entered the World War and settled
it once and for all in order to rescue the lost sheep (Lot).
We must remember that one of the disciples was a zealot (Mark 3:18)
his name was Simon. This however does not promote what the zealots
did nor does it promote war, but instead it teaches us that Simon
would have been interested in God’s justice especially when he
approached Christ. According to scripture God uses war to judge
between nations, and we should not seek judgment just as we should not
throw the stone at the woman whom was found in the act of committing
adultery.
Their are two reasons to go to war according to scripture one is to
ensure our inheritance and the other is to reclaim the lost sheep.
King David whom Christ sits on the throne of understood both of these
motivations for protecting and advancing the kingdom. The difference
with Christ in the New Testament is that now our inheritance and the
lost sheep are more of a spiritual matter than had ever before been
realized so to speak, and that is why the zealots fell short because
they battled with flesh and blood.
On Nov 6, 4:01 pm, ON EARTH Ministries
Adam Colbert
Nov 7, 2009, 4:48:19 AM11/7/09
to Jesus On the Web
Mat, i'm not trying to toss more on the pile, but Larry's right; you
gotta break things down into paragraphs at a time if you want people
to read it. and i'm just saying if you TRULY and realistically want
people to carry out the act of reading your posts in entirety. we can
tell (at least i'm picking up on it) that Larry's being sarcastic and
helpful, but i'm just honestly backing it up.......if you want people
to read it, you just gotta post a paragraph or maaaaybe two per actual
post. honestly, I'M not even reading most of your stuff anymore, which
is unfortunate because i truly am interested (and know from personal
experience, despite the years that have passed since then that i have
every reason to find interest) in what you say, but it's just getting
to be too much. like, enough is enough, and i'm broke down. now, don't
get me wrong - keep on posting! because i like the snippets i can
stomach, but they take time to digest for more room. my suggestion is
to type everything out AS IF you were gonna post, and then post each
paragraph one right after the other. EVEN IF this means posting a
dozen paragraphs in succession in a matter of two minutes, i can
assure you that even this method would draw more readers to at least
SOME of what invaluable gems you have to say, but as of now i assume
most take a single glance at the sheer length and immediately start
scrolling the mouse wheel like they're getting points for it. but if
you had a post for each paragraph, then in all likelihood many more
people will read something, internalize it, and take it away with them
as they continue the journey of life. and that surely is the intent in
posting - to have the reader grab hold. though i suppose one could
also post as means of cycling through their thoughts aloud in public,
so to speak, so as for the individual to better understand himself. if
that is the case with you (as it may or may not be at different
times), then i would still like to take something away from your
posts, but at least i'd know that your efforts weren't come to naught;
for if you are bettering and making progress with your inner self by
the mere fact of "getting it out of your system," then i know that is
something you will continue to take with you to help those around you.
adam
p.s. i almost didn't notice that Larry signed off with "Peas, and all
Good Things" lol.
gotta break things down into paragraphs at a time if you want people
to read it. and i'm just saying if you TRULY and realistically want
people to carry out the act of reading your posts in entirety. we can
tell (at least i'm picking up on it) that Larry's being sarcastic and
helpful, but i'm just honestly backing it up.......if you want people
to read it, you just gotta post a paragraph or maaaaybe two per actual
post. honestly, I'M not even reading most of your stuff anymore, which
is unfortunate because i truly am interested (and know from personal
experience, despite the years that have passed since then that i have
every reason to find interest) in what you say, but it's just getting
to be too much. like, enough is enough, and i'm broke down. now, don't
get me wrong - keep on posting! because i like the snippets i can
stomach, but they take time to digest for more room. my suggestion is
to type everything out AS IF you were gonna post, and then post each
paragraph one right after the other. EVEN IF this means posting a
dozen paragraphs in succession in a matter of two minutes, i can
assure you that even this method would draw more readers to at least
SOME of what invaluable gems you have to say, but as of now i assume
most take a single glance at the sheer length and immediately start
scrolling the mouse wheel like they're getting points for it. but if
you had a post for each paragraph, then in all likelihood many more
people will read something, internalize it, and take it away with them
as they continue the journey of life. and that surely is the intent in
posting - to have the reader grab hold. though i suppose one could
also post as means of cycling through their thoughts aloud in public,
so to speak, so as for the individual to better understand himself. if
that is the case with you (as it may or may not be at different
times), then i would still like to take something away from your
posts, but at least i'd know that your efforts weren't come to naught;
for if you are bettering and making progress with your inner self by
the mere fact of "getting it out of your system," then i know that is
something you will continue to take with you to help those around you.
adam
p.s. i almost didn't notice that Larry signed off with "Peas, and all
Good Things" lol.
mmo...@essex1.com
Nov 7, 2009, 8:06:21 AM11/7/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Hello,
Adam, I am beginning to believe that you are correct in a lot of ways. When I
studied with the Messianic Jews, the excitement was so much that four to six
hours of study was like saying hello and goodbye in the same breath because
four to six hours could only contain all the good stuff by compressing it down
into a very small compact form and by speaking very fast. I have been
thinking about making new ways of expressing my messages without causing the
reader burden, and I have developed the concept of putting my messages into
song. Unfortunately since the recording I did last night was over forty
minutes long and over one hundred megabytes my dial-up connection would not be
suitable for uploading it nor does the news group have space for it.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 11/7/2009 3:48:19 AM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Salvation Army - Holy Violence
ON EARTH Ministries
Nov 7, 2009, 11:16:19 AM11/7/09
to jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
I'm sorry. Forgive me. I don't mean to be overly critical. It's just
a lot of reading for a 50+ dyslexic guy with a full time job, a
dilapidated house, a full time wife, grandchildren, old bifocals...
You get the idea. When Mathew has been here in person the time flies.
a lot of reading for a 50+ dyslexic guy with a full time job, a
dilapidated house, a full time wife, grandchildren, old bifocals...
You get the idea. When Mathew has been here in person the time flies.
Think of yourself as a reporter, or better yet, a poet. NOT HOMER!
giggle.Maybe a song lyricist.
We have this thing in business called an "elevator pitch". It's based
on the idea that when you get on an elevator at your office building
the president of the company is there. You have 5 minutes to pitch
your idea before you get to his floor. You can practice on any office
building. Not only does it require you know what your conclusion is
going to be, the subject has to be obvious from the first sentence.
Oh, and have a hook with bait on a short line, we don't fish with nets
here in the Midwest, young fisherman.
Please don't take offense, I don't want you to be preaching at
auctioneer speed, and recording it. Please don't do that to the
world.
I've heard you sing. It's very....., rustic. Forty minutes is...., plenty.
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