The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

[Xus]

Today I've Been studying about Noah, and I was curious about the 7
couples of clean animals and 1 couple of not clean animals.

My Question was: How can I find in Torah that Noah recieved precepts
about which animal is clean or unclean?
This is my answer (But i Hope someone could develop the idea, or give
another thoughts).

1º - Every animal at the Eden time were herbivore.

"Gn 1:30" - and for every animal [Hai (living thing)].. ..for every
fowl and for every creeping (animal) [Romesh] upon the earth.. ..will
be every green [yerek (vegetables)] herb [esev (herb, grass and plants
with fruit) for food.

So we find that in Eden every animal were herbivore.
"Gn 4:14" - When Caín sinned he said: whatsoever [Chol] finds me
[motsei] shall come to kill me [yahargeni].

In this sentence of Caín we see he didn't mention people [anshim] nor
humen [adam]. His sentence was very overall, covering both people and
animals. So we got that:

2º - Animals started to be against human (showing carnivorous
behavior, as in Gn 9:5).

We deduce that animals became carnivorous against God's perfect plan
coz it is said:

"Gn 6:12" All flesh [Kol basar] corrupted [hishchit (degraded)] their
way [dark'o] on the earth [al haArets].

Again, "all flesh" is generic, covering both humen and animals, as we
read in Gn 6:17 "to destroy [le'Shachet] all flesh [kol basar]"
and again in Gn 6:19 "from all flesh.. ..bring two of every sort".

So animals corrupted their way. According to Gn 1:30 the way of the
animal is to be herbivore (at least i cannot find in Torah any other
commandment that animal should obey).
So those animals that didn't stand in their way, became NOT clean [Lo
Tehorah], because:

3º - They started to eat forbiden things.

How did I deduce this? because it is said to Noah:
"Gn 6:21" Take with you every food which must be eaten [ma'achal asher
le'achel].. ..and it shall be for food for you and for them.

that tells me that some animals (not all) were eating some food that
must not be eaten. And in this point, is when i think that some
animals in the eyes of God and His servants (like Noah) were NOT
clean.

Notice that didn't say: unclean [tamé]. Just NOT clean [Lo Tehorah].

They became ritually unclean [tamé] in the time of the Torah. But
until that time they weren't Tame, but just NOT CLEAN. Why? because
they defiled themselves eating what they should not.

In Aramaic there's one word to express this status: "Maseiv" (common,
defiled, made dirty, contaminated).
When something is Maseiv, it can clean yet, but when something is
Tame, then it is always unclean (not ritually valid).

Well That's all, i think you'll easily realize that most of (or maybe
all) unclean animals eat something else than just yerek esev.

Shalom u'brachah.

-XuS-

[avi5207]

It has been suggested and may be plausible that the terms of clean and unclean were added by the scribes of Moshe's time when he (Moshe) caused the Torah to be written down upon skins sewn together. In the kingdom to come when the lion lays down with the lamb it shall be as you say but, this is most likely not meant to be taken literally but is a metaphor for peace. We will still offer animal sacrifices according to Ezekiel's prophecies and there will be sacrifices eaten such as the Pesach lamb. in the Torah the terms of clean and unclean are relative terms. A lamb or kid of the goats or even an ox is an animal that is clean to eat but not clean to offer if it has flaws. Any clean animal that does not meet the strict requirements of being both clean to eat and without spot or blemish cannot be offered nor will it be accepted. This concept goes back to Abel when it is said that he offered a firstling or the best from his flock. One thing too to consider is that while an animal may be clean for Israel to eat it may not be clean to offer up in sacrifice even if said animal is without flaw. We find nowhere in Torah where a deer or other such clean animal can be offered. No fish offerings are called for. Also the Torah makes a distinction between what is clean for Israel to eat and what is clean for Gentiles to eat. Israel is held to a higher standard than the goyim. Yet we can see from the vision of John in his book of the apocalypse or revelation that there will be uncountable numbers from the goyim in the kingdom that will inherit eternal life as well. This can be compared to the fact that there has been a pattern established in how close a man wishes to walk with YHVH. In Moshe's day there was one that walked closest to him called Yeshoshua. Then there was Aaron, Miriam and Hur, then there were the 12 heads of the twelve tribes, then there were the 70 elders and beyond this there were captains of 10, 100, 1000 and so on. An authority structure was established then and approved of my YHVH. Yeshua uses this same pattern. the one (John) the three, the twelve, the seventy and the multitude of pastors headed by bishops not to mention the elders and deacons. Clean and unclean can be used to define relationships, sexual or religious affiliations. Lastly we have Acts 10 where Peter is given a vision and it is explained that the goyim that come to fear YHVH are to be considered cleansed and given the gospel of Yeshua that through faith in Him they might become joint heirs and have eternal life.�

Now I ask you to consider this concept. What is the gospel? I maintain that it is not just the mere belief that Yeshua is the Son of God. Devils believe in God and His Son and they fear and tremble. The really good news is this: Before Yeshua a person could not be cleansed of certain sins. There were sins unto death that could not be atoned for. The offenders life was called for. Even David paid a price higher than his life in the matter of Bathsheba, when his son died on the 7th day even before he could be circumcised and named. Now through Yeshua all things old have passed away. Faith in Him baptizes us into His death and so He has settled the score by our symbolic deaths with Him. We are then given life eternal and made partakers of His resurrection. Talk about being clean! What good news... the best good news ever! Anyway just my thoughts.

Shalom,

Avi

On 3/16/2011 5:18 AM, Xus wrote:

Today I've Been studying about Noah, and I was curious about the 7
couples of clean animals and 1 couple of not clean animals.

My Question was: How can I find in Torah that Noah recieved precepts
about which animal is clean or unclean?
This is my answer (But i Hope someone could develop the idea, or give
another thoughts).

1� - Every animal at the Eden time were herbivore.

"Gn 1:30" - and for every animal [Hai (living thing)].. ..for every
fowl and for every creeping (animal) [Romesh] upon the earth.. ..will
be every green [yerek (vegetables)] herb [esev (herb, grass and plants
with fruit) for food.

So we find that in Eden every animal were herbivore.
"Gn 4:14" - When Ca�n sinned he said: whatsoever [Chol] finds me
[motsei] shall come to kill me [yahargeni].

In this sentence of Ca�n we see he didn't mention people [anshim] nor
humen [adam]. His sentence was very overall, covering both people and
animals. So we got that:

2� - Animals started to be against human (showing carnivorous
behavior, as in Gn 9:5).

We deduce that animals became carnivorous against God's perfect plan
coz it is said:

"Gn 6:12" All flesh [Kol basar] corrupted [hishchit (degraded)] their
way [dark'o] on the earth [al haArets].

Again, "all flesh" is generic, covering both humen and animals, as we
read in Gn 6:17 "to destroy [le'Shachet] all flesh [kol basar]"
and again in Gn 6:19 "from all flesh.. ..bring two of every sort".

So animals corrupted their way. According to Gn 1:30 the way of the
animal is to be herbivore (at least i cannot find in Torah any other
commandment that animal should obey).
 So those animals that didn't stand in their way, became NOT clean [Lo
Tehorah], because:

3� - They started to eat forbiden things.

How did I deduce this? because it is said to Noah:
"Gn 6:21" Take with you every food which must be eaten [ma'achal asher
le'achel].. ..and it shall be for food for you and for them.

that tells me that some animals (not all) were eating some food that
must not be eaten. And in this point, is when i think that some
animals in the eyes of God and His servants (like Noah) were NOT
clean.

Notice that didn't say: unclean [tam�]. Just NOT clean [Lo Tehorah].

They became ritually unclean [tam�] in the time of the Torah. But
until that time they weren't Tame, but just NOT CLEAN. Why? because
they defiled themselves eating what they should not.

In Aramaic there's one word to express this status: "Maseiv" (common,
defiled, made dirty, contaminated).
When something is Maseiv, it can clean yet, but when something is
Tame, then it is always unclean (not ritually valid).

Well That's all, i think you'll easily realize that most of (or maybe
all) unclean animals eat something else than just yerek esev.

Shalom u'brachah.

-XuS-

[YAS2015]

Shalom Avi,

 

I have studied the clean and unclean meats in the Ketuvim Netzarim very well and to an extent the Torah. I do not see a distinction between Israel and a Goy when it comes to eating Kashrut and being in the Kingdom nor living a righteous life. They go hand in hand.

 

The New Covenant at Mo'Av is the ONLY New Covenant between the Bereshit and Revelations that I am aware of. In Acts of the Talmidim, the Jerusalem Beit Din records that the Goyim must refrain from eating unclean meats. Rabbi Yaakov ben Yosef was making a requirement that the Goyim follow the Noahide Laws. To eat anything unclean, as you know, would make anyone unclean and therefore, not be living a righteous life. {Who would want to eat something that an unclean spirit would DEMAND Yeshua to COMMAND them to go live in.?! Then the unclean spirit would become part of that human being!} I agree that this is not Rabbinical Kashrut, but if this is not Kashrut then what is it?

 

And it would have been expected that the Goys attend the Synagogues to learn the Laws of Moshe. 

 

Boker Tov,

Yacov

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 7:51 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

It has been suggested and may be plausible that the terms of clean and unclean were added by the scribes of Moshe's time when he (Moshe) caused the Torah to be written down upon skins sewn together. In the kingdom to come when the lion lays down with the lamb it shall be as you say but, this is most likely not meant to be taken literally but is a metaphor for peace. We will still offer animal sacrifices according to Ezekiel's prophecies and there will be sacrifices eaten such as the Pesach lamb. in the Torah the terms of clean and unclean are relative terms. A lamb or kid of the goats or even an ox is an animal that is clean to eat but not clean to offer if it has flaws. Any clean animal that does not meet the strict requirements of being both clean to eat and without spot or blemish cannot be offered nor will it be accepted. This concept goes back to Abel when it is said that he offered a firstling or the best from his flock. One thing too to consider is that while an animal may be clean for Israel to eat it may not be clean to offer up in sacrifice even if said animal is without flaw. We find nowhere in Torah where a deer or other such clean animal can be offered. No fish offerings are called for. Also the Torah makes a distinction between what is clean for Israel to eat and what is clean for Gentiles to eat. Israel is held to a higher standard than the goyim. Yet we can see from the vision of John in his book of the apocalypse or revelation that there will be uncountable numbers from the goyim in the kingdom that will inherit eternal life as well. This can be compared to the fact that there has been a pattern established in how close a man wishes to walk with YHVH. In Moshe's day there was one that walked closest to him called Yeshoshua. Then there was Aaron, Miriam and Hur, then there were the 12 heads of the twelve tribes, then there were the 70 elders and beyond this there were captains of 10, 100, 1000 and so on. An authority structure was established then and approved of my YHVH. Yeshua uses this same pattern. the one (John) the three, the twelve, the seventy and the multitude of pastors headed by bishops not to mention the elders and deacons. Clean and unclean can be used to define relationships, sexual or religious affiliations. Lastly we have Acts 10 where Peter is given a vision and it is explained that the goyim that come to fear YHVH are to be considered cleansed and given the gospel of Yeshua that through faith in Him they might become joint heirs and have eternal life. 

Now I ask you to consider this concept. What is the gospel? I maintain that it is not just the mere belief that Yeshua is the Son of God. Devils believe in God and His Son and they fear and tremble. The really good news is this: Before Yeshua a person could not be cleansed of certain sins. There were sins unto death that could not be atoned for. The offenders life was called for. Even David paid a price higher than his life in the matter of Bathsheba, when his son died on the 7th day even before he could be circumcised and named. Now through Yeshua all things old have passed away. Faith in Him baptizes us into His death and so He has settled the score by our symbolic deaths with Him. We are then given life eternal and made partakers of His resurrection. Talk about being clean! What good news... the best good news ever! Anyway just my thoughts.

Shalom,

Avi

On 3/16/2011 5:18 AM, Xus wrote:

Today I've Been studying about Noah, and I was curious about the 7
couples of clean animals and 1 couple of not clean animals.

My Question was: How can I find in Torah that Noah recieved precepts
about which animal is clean or unclean?
This is my answer (But i Hope someone could develop the idea, or give
another thoughts).

1º - Every animal at the Eden time were herbivore.

"Gn 1:30" - and for every animal [Hai (living thing)].. ..for every
fowl and for every creeping (animal) [Romesh] upon the earth.. ..will
be every green [yerek (vegetables)] herb [esev (herb, grass and plants
with fruit) for food.

So we find that in Eden every animal were herbivore.
"Gn 4:14" - When Caín sinned he said: whatsoever [Chol] finds me
[motsei] shall come to kill me [yahargeni].

In this sentence of Caín we see he didn't mention people [anshim] nor
humen [adam]. His sentence was very overall, covering both people and
animals. So we got that:

2º - Animals started to be against human (showing carnivorous
behavior, as in Gn 9:5).

We deduce that animals became carnivorous against God's perfect plan
coz it is said:

"Gn 6:12" All flesh [Kol basar] corrupted [hishchit (degraded)] their
way [dark'o] on the earth [al haArets].

Again, "all flesh" is generic, covering both humen and animals, as we
read in Gn 6:17 "to destroy [le'Shachet] all flesh [kol basar]"
and again in Gn 6:19 "from all flesh.. ..bring two of every sort".

So animals corrupted their way. According to Gn 1:30 the way of the
animal is to be herbivore (at least i cannot find in Torah any other
commandment that animal should obey).
 So those animals that didn't stand in their way, became NOT clean [Lo
Tehorah], because:

3º - They started to eat forbiden things.

How did I deduce this? because it is said to Noah:
"Gn 6:21" Take with you every food which must be eaten [ma'achal asher
le'achel].. ..and it shall be for food for you and for them.

that tells me that some animals (not all) were eating some food that
must not be eaten. And in this point, is when i think that some
animals in the eyes of God and His servants (like Noah) were NOT
clean.

Notice that didn't say: unclean [tamé]. Just NOT clean [Lo Tehorah].

They became ritually unclean [tamé] in the time of the Torah. But
until that time they weren't Tame, but just NOT CLEAN. Why? because
they defiled themselves eating what they should not.

In Aramaic there's one word to express this status: "Maseiv" (common,
defiled, made dirty, contaminated).
When something is Maseiv, it can clean yet, but when something is
Tame, then it is always unclean (not ritually valid).

Well That's all, i think you'll easily realize that most of (or maybe
all) unclean animals eat something else than just yerek esev.

Shalom u'brachah.

-XuS-

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[Israel]

I use Noach's knowledge of clean and unclean animals as proof that the Torah was known prior to it being written down by Moshe at Sinai. The Torah has always existed. Even Adam was to do "service in the Torah" in the Garden, per Targum Pseudo-Jonathan.

Shalom,

Israel

[avi5207]

Shalom Yacov,

Sorry for the confusion as I was not advocating that believing Goyim were to eat un-kosher. Non believing and so non covenant Goyim may eat what is unclean to benai Israel. The Torah has several places where this distinction is made. The Goy that wishes to join Israel must learn and observe Torah. Torah observance and circumcision for males is not a prerequisite for salvation and that is what is spoken of in Acts 15. Unclean meats such as pork, catfish, shellfish and such are not an issue and in fact are not mentioned once as being permitted by Yeshua or His apostles. Meats that were strangled or offered to idols were not to be knowingly eaten� by any believer even if it was meat from an otherwise clean animal. Acts 10 which I reference is often misused to justify eating unclean meats by those wishing to find a loophole in the Law. Acts 15 has no connection to the modern rabbinic myth of Noachide law in my opinion. YHVH is simply not in covenant with anyone but Israel. This is why the church must see itself as being made part of the commonwealth of Israel and not separate. There are not two covenants. There is one law for all Israel including the grafted in Gentiles. One thing else. Jews today that reject Yeshua as Moshiach are going to have to stand before the judgment seat of Messiah Yeshua the same as all other non believers. The new covenant is really the renewed original covenant made with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. In Moshe's day the same covenant was renewed at Sinai with further additions and clarifications added. We have the final and full revelation of this covenant in the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Yeshua. (See Jer. 31:31-34) There is no new or renewed covenant outside of acceptance of Yeshua as the Son of God and The Messiah who died as prophesied for the sins of many (only those that accept Him) was resurrected on the third day, ascended up to the Heavenly Father and is now seated at His right hand. Let me repeat myself. There is no mention in the TaNaK (Gen-Rev) of any meat formerly unclean to eat by Israel being made clean to eat by the shed blood of Yeshua. Israel is made up of believers in Yeshua, not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Unless a person confesses their sins and asks for Yeshua to be their Master their is no baptism with the Holy Spirit, no new creation in Messiah Yeshua and no salvation for anyone Jew or Gentile. (I am certain there will be those that dispute these assertions I have made) No intention to offend anyone but facts are facts no matter who the facts offend.

Shalom,

Avi


On 3/16/2011 9:20 AM, YAS2015 wrote:

Shalom Avi,

�

I have studied the clean and unclean meats in the Ketuvim Netzarim very well and to an extent the Torah. I do not see a distinction between Israel and a Goy when it comes to eating Kashrut and being in the Kingdom nor living a righteous life. They go hand in hand.

�

The New Covenant at Mo'Av is the ONLY New Covenant between the Bereshit and Revelations that I am aware of. In Acts of the Talmidim, the Jerusalem Beit Din records that the Goyim must refrain from eating unclean meats. Rabbi Yaakov ben Yosef was making a requirement that the Goyim follow the Noahide Laws. To eat anything unclean, as you know, would make anyone unclean and therefore, not�be living a righteous life. {Who would want to eat something that an unclean spirit would DEMAND Yeshua to COMMAND them to go live in.?! Then the unclean spirit would become part of that human being!} I agree that this is not�Rabbinical Kashrut, but if this is not Kashrut then what is it?

�

And it would have been expected that the Goys attend the Synagogues to learn the Laws of Moshe.�

�

Boker Tov,

Yacov

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 7:51 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

It has been suggested and may be plausible that the terms of clean and unclean were added by the scribes of Moshe's time when he (Moshe) caused the Torah to be written down upon skins sewn together. In the kingdom to come when the lion lays down with the lamb it shall be as you say but, this is most likely not meant to be taken literally but is a metaphor for peace. We will still offer animal sacrifices according to Ezekiel's prophecies and there will be sacrifices eaten such as the Pesach lamb. in the Torah the terms of clean and unclean are relative terms. A lamb or kid of the goats or even an ox is an animal that is clean to eat but not clean to offer if it has flaws. Any clean animal that does not meet the strict requirements of being both clean to eat and without spot or blemish cannot be offered nor will it be accepted. This concept goes back to Abel when it is said that he offered a firstling or the best from his flock. One thing too to consider is that while an animal may be clean for Israel to eat it may not be clean to offer up in sacrifice even if said animal is without flaw. We find nowhere in Torah where a deer or other such clean animal can be offered. No fish offerings are called for. Also the Torah makes a distinction between what is clean for Israel to eat and what is clean for Gentiles to eat. Israel is held to a higher standard than the goyim. Yet we can see from the vision of John in his book of the apocalypse or revelation that there will be uncountable numbers from the goyim in the kingdom that will inherit eternal life as well. This can be compared to the fact that there has been a pattern established in how close a man wishes to walk with YHVH. In Moshe's day there was one that walked closest to him called Yeshoshua. Then there was Aaron, Miriam and Hur, then there were the 12 heads of the twelve tribes, then there were the 70 elders and beyond this there were captains of 10, 100, 1000 and so on. An authority structure was established then and approved of my YHVH. Yeshua uses this same pattern. the one (John) the three, the twelve, the seventy and the multitude of pastors headed by bishops not to mention the elders and deacons. Clean and unclean can be used to define relationships, sexual or religious affiliations. Lastly we have Acts 10 where Peter is given a vision and it is explained that the goyim that come to fear YHVH are to be considered cleansed and given the gospel of Yeshua that through faith in Him they might become joint heirs and have eternal life.�

Now I ask you to consider this concept. What is the gospel? I maintain that it is not just the mere belief that Yeshua is the Son of God. Devils believe in God and His Son and they fear and tremble. The really good news is this: Before Yeshua a person could not be cleansed of certain sins. There were sins unto death that could not be atoned for. The offenders life was called for. Even David paid a price higher than his life in the matter of Bathsheba, when his son died on the 7th day even before he could be circumcised and named. Now through Yeshua all things old have passed away. Faith in Him baptizes us into His death and so He has settled the score by our symbolic deaths with Him. We are then given life eternal and made partakers of His resurrection. Talk about being clean! What good news... the best good news ever! Anyway just my thoughts.

Shalom,

Avi

On 3/16/2011 5:18 AM, Xus wrote:

Today I've Been studying about Noah, and I was curious about the 7
couples of clean animals and 1 couple of not clean animals.

My Question was: How can I find in Torah that Noah recieved precepts
about which animal is clean or unclean?
This is my answer (But i Hope someone could develop the idea, or give
another thoughts).

1� - Every animal at the Eden time were herbivore.

"Gn 1:30" - and for every animal [Hai (living thing)].. ..for every
fowl and for every creeping (animal) [Romesh] upon the earth.. ..will
be every green [yerek (vegetables)] herb [esev (herb, grass and plants
with fruit) for food.

So we find that in Eden every animal were herbivore.
"Gn 4:14" - When Ca�n sinned he said: whatsoever [Chol] finds me
[motsei] shall come to kill me [yahargeni].

In this sentence of Ca�n we see he didn't mention people [anshim] nor
humen [adam]. His sentence was very overall, covering both people and
animals. So we got that:

2� - Animals started to be against human (showing carnivorous
behavior, as in Gn 9:5).

We deduce that animals became carnivorous against God's perfect plan
coz it is said:

"Gn 6:12" All flesh [Kol basar] corrupted [hishchit (degraded)] their
way [dark'o] on the earth [al haArets].

Again, "all flesh" is generic, covering both humen and animals, as we
read in Gn 6:17 "to destroy [le'Shachet] all flesh [kol basar]"
and again in Gn 6:19 "from all flesh.. ..bring two of every sort".

So animals corrupted their way. According to Gn 1:30 the way of the
animal is to be herbivore (at least i cannot find in Torah any other
commandment that animal should obey).
 So those animals that didn't stand in their way, became NOT clean [Lo
Tehorah], because:

3� - They started to eat forbiden things.

How did I deduce this? because it is said to Noah:
"Gn 6:21" Take with you every food which must be eaten [ma'achal asher
le'achel].. ..and it shall be for food for you and for them.

that tells me that some animals (not all) were eating some food that
must not be eaten. And in this point, is when i think that some
animals in the eyes of God and His servants (like Noah) were NOT
clean.

Notice that didn't say: unclean [tam�]. Just NOT clean [Lo Tehorah].

They became ritually unclean [tam�] in the time of the Torah. But
until that time they weren't Tame, but just NOT CLEAN. Why? because
they defiled themselves eating what they should not.

In Aramaic there's one word to express this status: "Maseiv" (common,
defiled, made dirty, contaminated).
When something is Maseiv, it can clean yet, but when something is
Tame, then it is always unclean (not ritually valid).

Well That's all, i think you'll easily realize that most of (or maybe
all) unclean animals eat something else than just yerek esev.

Shalom u'brachah.

-XuS-

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[avi5207]

I know of only one Torah command and he didn't keep it for long. :-)��������
I was taught by my rabbis that the mention of clean and unclean was a scribal addition. Maybe right or wrong I wasn't there so I don't know. There are several places that look to be added for clarification by later scribes. For instance if 400 years earlier a place was called one name it may now be called another name and there are places where the original name is used then the insertion of its modern name.

Shalom,

Avi

On 3/16/2011 10:16 AM, Israel wrote:

I use Noach's knowledge of clean and unclean animals as proof that the Torah was known prior to it being written down by Moshe at Sinai. The Torah has always existed. Even Adam was to do "service in the Torah" in the Garden, per Targum Pseudo-Jonathan.

Shalom,

Israel

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 8:20 AM, YAS2015 <yas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Shalom Avi,

�

I have studied the clean and unclean meats in the Ketuvim Netzarim very well and to an extent the Torah. I do not see a distinction between Israel and a Goy when it comes to eating Kashrut and being in the Kingdom nor living a righteous life. They go hand in hand.

�

The New Covenant at Mo'Av is the ONLY New Covenant between the Bereshit and Revelations that I am aware of. In Acts of the Talmidim, the Jerusalem Beit Din records that the Goyim must refrain from eating unclean meats. Rabbi Yaakov ben Yosef was making a requirement that the Goyim follow the Noahide Laws. To eat anything unclean, as you know, would make anyone unclean and therefore, not�be living a righteous life. {Who would want to eat something that an unclean spirit would DEMAND Yeshua to COMMAND them to go live in.?! Then the unclean spirit would become part of that human being!} I agree that this is not�Rabbinical Kashrut, but if this is not Kashrut then what is it?

�

And it would have been expected that the Goys attend the Synagogues to learn the Laws of Moshe.�

�

Boker Tov,

Yacov

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 7:51 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

It has been suggested and may be plausible that the terms of clean and unclean were added by the scribes of Moshe's time when he (Moshe) caused the Torah to be written down upon skins sewn together. In the kingdom to come when the lion lays down with the lamb it shall be as you say but, this is most likely not meant to be taken literally but is a metaphor for peace. We will still offer animal sacrifices according to Ezekiel's prophecies and there will be sacrifices eaten such as the Pesach lamb. in the Torah the terms of clean and unclean are relative terms. A lamb or kid of the goats or even an ox is an animal that is clean to eat but not clean to offer if it has flaws. Any clean animal that does not meet the strict requirements of being both clean to eat and without spot or blemish cannot be offered nor will it be accepted. This concept goes back to Abel when it is said that he offered a firstling or the best from his flock. One thing too to consider is that while an animal may be clean for Israel to eat it may not be clean to offer up in sacrifice even if said animal is without flaw. We find nowhere in Torah where a deer or other such clean animal can be offered. No fish offerings are called for. Also the Torah makes a distinction between what is clean for Israel to eat and what is clean for Gentiles to eat. Israel is held to a higher standard than the goyim. Yet we can see from the vision of John in his book of the apocalypse or revelation that there will be uncountable numbers from the goyim in the kingdom that will inherit eternal life as well. This can be compared to the fact that there has been a pattern established in how close a man wishes to walk with YHVH. In Moshe's day there was one that walked closest to him called Yeshoshua. Then there was Aaron, Miriam and Hur, then there were the 12 heads of the twelve tribes, then there were the 70 elders and beyond this there were captains of 10, 100, 1000 and so on. An authority structure was established then and approved of my YHVH. Yeshua uses this same pattern. the one (John) the three, the twelve, the seventy and the multitude of pastors headed by bishops not to mention the elders and deacons. Clean and unclean can be used to define relationships, sexual or religious affiliations. Lastly we have Acts 10 where Peter is given a vision and it is explained that the goyim that come to fear YHVH are to be considered cleansed and given the gospel of Yeshua that through faith in Him they might become joint heirs and have eternal life.�

Now I ask you to consider this concept. What is the gospel? I maintain that it is not just the mere belief that Yeshua is the Son of God. Devils believe in God and His Son and they fear and tremble. The really good news is this: Before Yeshua a person could not be cleansed of certain sins. There were sins unto death that could not be atoned for. The offenders life was called for. Even David paid a price higher than his life in the matter of Bathsheba, when his son died on the 7th day even before he could be circumcised and named. Now through Yeshua all things old have passed away. Faith in Him baptizes us into His death and so He has settled the score by our symbolic deaths with Him. We are then given life eternal and made partakers of His resurrection. Talk about being clean! What good news... the best good news ever! Anyway just my thoughts.

Shalom,

Avi

On 3/16/2011 5:18 AM, Xus wrote:

Today I've Been studying about Noah, and I was curious about the 7
couples of clean animals and 1 couple of not clean animals.

My Question was: How can I find in Torah that Noah recieved precepts
about which animal is clean or unclean?
This is my answer (But i Hope someone could develop the idea, or give
another thoughts).

1� - Every animal at the Eden time were herbivore.

"Gn 1:30" - and for every animal [Hai (living thing)].. ..for every
fowl and for every creeping (animal) [Romesh] upon the earth.. ..will
be every green [yerek (vegetables)] herb [esev (herb, grass and plants
with fruit) for food.

So we find that in Eden every animal were herbivore.
"Gn 4:14" - When Ca�n sinned he said: whatsoever [Chol] finds me
[motsei] shall come to kill me [yahargeni].

In this sentence of Ca�n we see he didn't mention people [anshim] nor
humen [adam]. His sentence was very overall, covering both people and
animals. So we got that:

2� - Animals started to be against human (showing carnivorous
behavior, as in Gn 9:5).

We deduce that animals became carnivorous against God's perfect plan
coz it is said:

"Gn 6:12" All flesh [Kol basar] corrupted [hishchit (degraded)] their
way [dark'o] on the earth [al haArets].

Again, "all flesh" is generic, covering both humen and animals, as we
read in Gn 6:17 "to destroy [le'Shachet] all flesh [kol basar]"
and again in Gn 6:19 "from all flesh.. ..bring two of every sort".

So animals corrupted their way. According to Gn 1:30 the way of the
animal is to be herbivore (at least i cannot find in Torah any other
commandment that animal should obey).
 So those animals that didn't stand in their way, became NOT clean [Lo
Tehorah], because:

3� - They started to eat forbiden things.

How did I deduce this? because it is said to Noah:
"Gn 6:21" Take with you every food which must be eaten [ma'achal asher
le'achel].. ..and it shall be for food for you and for them.

that tells me that some animals (not all) were eating some food that
must not be eaten. And in this point, is when i think that some
animals in the eyes of God and His servants (like Noah) were NOT
clean.

Notice that didn't say: unclean [tam�]. Just NOT clean [Lo Tehorah].

They became ritually unclean [tam�] in the time of the Torah. But
until that time they weren't Tame, but just NOT CLEAN. Why? because
they defiled themselves eating what they should not.

In Aramaic there's one word to express this status: "Maseiv" (common,
defiled, made dirty, contaminated).
When something is Maseiv, it can clean yet, but when something is
Tame, then it is always unclean (not ritually valid).

Well That's all, i think you'll easily realize that most of (or maybe
all) unclean animals eat something else than just yerek esev.

Shalom u'brachah.

-XuS-

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[XuS Casal]

Thank you people for the answers! I notice that none here accepts the Noahide precepts for the gentiles. How is it? None here agrees with the Talmud? Not EVEN Israel?? :D
 
Funny! Well.. I've been teached how and where Noachide precepts appear when you compare the beggining of B'reshith with chapter 9.
Well, i personally find it to be true, and I agree with the rabbi that said that Chapter 10 of Acts is about Noahide Law. That's the same teaching I recieved. Actually those 7 precepts are part of the 613 precepts in the Torah. I never read here that the Torah precepts are less than 613, so... I thought you guys were agree. Anyway hahaha... that's my point.
 
Noahide laws were 5 in origin, after a deeper study became 7. It is coincidence that in Apostles age, were 5.
 
Talmud, Sanedrín 56 a & b.
 
1- Believe in the Truly God (which includes Love God above everything, the Shema...etc etc etc) (Gn 9:6: God teached Noah that human is created in HaSHem's image; Gn 2:7: God teached Adam that Only HaShem created us. Gn 3:5: the serpent made human believe in other gods).
 
2- Do not Blaspheme (which includes to don't take the name of God in vain... etc etc etc) (Gn 9:1; Gn 1:28: God Blessed us, how then could we curse Him?).
 
3- Do not Kill (which includes do not murder, do not commit suicide, love your neighbour as yourself... etc etc ) (Gn 9:5-6).
 
4- Do not Steal (which includes do not lust... etc etc etc) (Gn 9:3 & Gn 2:17; God gave us everything we need, we must not take what is not ours).
 
5- No Illicit sex (which includes every sexual perversion mentioned in Bible) (Gn 9:9 & Gn 2:24; only if man and woman are one flesh, God will bless us and our seed).
 
6- Abstein from strangled and blood (which includes the eating of alive animals... etc etc) (Gn 9:4; in the case of Adam, he had to abstein from eating any animal; Gn 2:16).
 
7- Establish law courts (God asked us to judge when he said: Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of Elohim (that means Judge) made He man; Gn 9:6, and He said: I establish My covenant with you, and with your seed after you (Gn 9:9), to ensure that the pact is being maintained we need justice and righteousness).
 
Well.. the 5 commandents in Jerusalem councul were the basic Noahide laws, coz the rest the obeyed by themselves, i mean, No one needed to tell them that they must Believe in the truly God. That was logical.
 
Paul talk to the Gentiles several times that they don't need to become Jewish (to make circumcision) (1co 7:18).
 
Don't missunderstand me, ok? Only Israel is the people of God, and Just Israel inherit the Olam HaBa. But the point of Paul is that the Gentiles now they became part of Israel with the original root (the Jews). And from 2 of them, God made One. So, is it really necessary for the Gentiles to circumcise, and Keep all the Jewish precepts like the Tzitziot, the Tephilin, the Kashrut... etc etc?
 
I also know that Torah teaches that Gentiles that live with Jewish will have the same Torah with them, but the Gentiles that Do not live with Jewish?? They also Need to keep all of that??
 
I'm just curious about your answers, I wanna understand your points, ok? I don't pretend to oppose the teachings here.
 
Shalom
 
ps: Im gonna have surgery in 2 days (in the fasting of Purim) and I'd apreciate if you guys could remember me in your prayers. THank you.
 
-XuS-
 
 

 

---

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:47:55 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

Shalom Yacov,

Sorry for the confusion as I was not advocating that believing Goyim were to eat un-kosher. Non believing and so non covenant Goyim may eat what is unclean to benai Israel. The Torah has several places where this distinction is made. The Goy that wishes to join Israel must learn and observe Torah. Torah observance and circumcision for males is not a prerequisite for salvation and that is what is spoken of in Acts 15. Unclean meats such as pork, catfish, shellfish and such are not an issue and in fact are not mentioned once as being permitted by Yeshua or His apostles. Meats that were strangled or offered to idols were not to be knowingly eaten  by any believer even if it was meat from an otherwise clean animal. Acts 10 which I reference is often misused to justify eating unclean meats by those wishing to find a loophole in the Law. Acts 15 has no connection to the modern rabbinic myth of Noachide law in my opinion. YHVH is simply not in covenant with anyone but Israel. This is why the church must see itself as being made part of the commonwealth of Israel and not separate. There are not two covenants. There is one law for all Israel including the grafted in Gentiles. One thing else. Jews today that reject Yeshua as Moshiach are going to have to stand before the judgment seat of Messiah Yeshua the same as all other non believers. The new covenant is really the renewed original covenant made with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. In Moshe's day the same covenant was renewed at Sinai with further additions and clarifications added. We have the final and full revelation of this covenant in the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Yeshua. (See Jer. 31:31-34) There is no new or renewed covenant outside of acceptance of Yeshua as the Son of God and The Messiah who died as prophesied for the sins of many (only those that accept Him) was resurrected on the third day, ascended up to the Heavenly Father and is now seated at His right hand. Let me repeat myself. There is no mention in the TaNaK (Gen-Rev) of any meat formerly unclean to eat by Israel being made clean to eat by the shed blood of Yeshua. Israel is made up of believers in Yeshua, not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Unless a person confesses their sins and asks for Yeshua to be their Master their is no baptism with the Holy Spirit, no new creation in Messiah Yeshua and no salvation for anyone Jew or Gentile. (I am certain there will be those that dispute these assertions I have made) No intention to offend anyone but facts are facts no matter who the facts offend.

Shalom,

Avi


On 3/16/2011 9:20 AM, YAS2015 wrote:

Shalom Avi,

 

I have studied the clean and unclean meats in the Ketuvim Netzarim very well and to an extent the Torah. I do not see a distinction between Israel and a Goy when it comes to eating Kashrut and being in the Kingdom nor living a righteous life. They go hand in hand.

 

The New Covenant at Mo'Av is the ONLY New Covenant between the Bereshit and Revelations that I am aware of. In Acts of the Talmidim, the Jerusalem Beit Din records that the Goyim must refrain from eating unclean meats. Rabbi Yaakov ben Yosef was making a requirement that the Goyim follow the Noahide Laws. To eat anything unclean, as you know, would make anyone unclean and therefore, not be living a righteous life. {Who would want to eat something that an unclean spirit would DEMAND Yeshua to COMMAND them to go live in.?! Then the unclean spirit would become part of that human being!} I agree that this is not Rabbinical Kashrut, but if this is not Kashrut then what is it?

 

And it would have been expected that the Goys attend the Synagogues to learn the Laws of Moshe. 

 

Boker Tov,

Yacov

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 7:51 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

It has been suggested and may be plausible that the terms of clean and unclean were added by the scribes of Moshe's time when he (Moshe) caused the Torah to be written down upon skins sewn together. In the kingdom to come when the lion lays down with the lamb it shall be as you say but, this is most likely not meant to be taken literally but is a metaphor for peace. We will still offer animal sacrifices according to Ezekiel's prophecies and there will be sacrifices eaten such as the Pesach lamb. in the Torah the terms of clean and unclean are relative terms. A lamb or kid of the goats or even an ox is an animal that is clean to eat but not clean to offer if it has flaws. Any clean animal that does not meet the strict requirements of being both clean to eat and without spot or blemish cannot be offered nor will it be accepted. This concept goes back to Abel when it is said that he offered a firstling or the best from his flock. One thing too to consider is that while an animal may be clean for Israel to eat it may not be clean to offer up in sacrifice even if said animal is without flaw. We find nowhere in Torah where a deer or other such clean animal can be offered. No fish offerings are called for. Also the Torah makes a distinction between what is clean for Israel to eat and what is clean for Gentiles to eat. Israel is held to a higher standard than the goyim. Yet we can see from the vision of John in his book of the apocalypse or revelation that there will be uncountable numbers from the goyim in the kingdom that will inherit eternal life as well. This can be compared to the fact that there has been a pattern established in how close a man wishes to walk with YHVH. In Moshe's day there was one that walked closest to him called Yeshoshua. Then there was Aaron, Miriam and Hur, then there were the 12 heads of the twelve tribes, then there were the 70 elders and beyond this there were captains of 10, 100, 1000 and so on. An authority structure was established then and approved of my YHVH. Yeshua uses this same pattern. the one (John) the three, the twelve, the seventy and the multitude of pastors headed by bishops not to mention the elders and deacons. Clean and unclean can be used to define relationships, sexual or religious affiliations. Lastly we have Acts 10 where Peter is given a vision and it is explained that the goyim that come to fear YHVH are to be considered cleansed and given the gospel of Yeshua that through faith in Him they might become joint heirs and have eternal life. 

Now I ask you to consider this concept. What is the gospel? I maintain that it is not just the mere belief that Yeshua is the Son of God. Devils believe in God and His Son and they fear and tremble. The really good news is this: Before Yeshua a person could not be cleansed of certain sins. There were sins unto death that could not be atoned for. The offenders life was called for. Even David paid a price higher than his life in the matter of Bathsheba, when his son died on the 7th day even before he could be circumcised and named. Now through Yeshua all things old have passed away. Faith in Him baptizes us into His death and so He has settled the score by our symbolic deaths with Him. We are then given life eternal and made partakers of His resurrection. Talk about being clean! What good news... the best good news ever! Anyway just my thoughts.

Shalom,

Avi

On 3/16/2011 5:18 AM, Xus wrote:

Today I've Been studying about Noah, and I was curious about the 7
couples of clean animals and 1 couple of not clean animals.

My Question was: How can I find in Torah that Noah recieved precepts
about which animal is clean or unclean?
This is my answer (But i Hope someone could develop the idea, or give
another thoughts).

1º - Every animal at the Eden time were herbivore.

"Gn 1:30" - and for every animal [Hai (living thing)].. ..for every
fowl and for every creeping (animal) [Romesh] upon the earth.. ..will
be every green [yerek (vegetables)] herb [esev (herb, grass and plants
with fruit) for food.

So we find that in Eden every animal were herbivore.
"Gn 4:14" - When Caín sinned he said: whatsoever [Chol] finds me
[motsei] shall come to kill me [yahargeni].

In this sentence of Caín we see he didn't mention people [anshim] nor
humen [adam]. His sentence was very overall, covering both people and
animals. So we got that:

2º - Animals started to be against human (showing carnivorous
behavior, as in Gn 9:5).

We deduce that animals became carnivorous against God's perfect plan
coz it is said:

"Gn 6:12" All flesh [Kol basar] corrupted [hishchit (degraded)] their
way [dark'o] on the earth [al haArets].

Again, "all flesh" is generic, covering both humen and animals, as we
read in Gn 6:17 "to destroy [le'Shachet] all flesh [kol basar]"
and again in Gn 6:19 "from all flesh.. ..bring two of every sort".

So animals corrupted their way. According to Gn 1:30 the way of the
animal is to be herbivore (at least i cannot find in Torah any other
commandment that animal should obey).
 So those animals that didn't stand in their way, became NOT clean [Lo
Tehorah], because:

3º - They started to eat forbiden things.

How did I deduce this? because it is said to Noah:
"Gn 6:21" Take with you every food which must be eaten [ma'achal asher
le'achel].. ..and it shall be for food for you and for them.

that tells me that some animals (not all) were eating some food that
must not be eaten. And in this point, is when i think that some
animals in the eyes of God and His servants (like Noah) were NOT
clean.

Notice that didn't say: unclean [tamé]. Just NOT clean [Lo Tehorah].

They became ritually unclean [tamé] in the time of the Torah. But
until that time they weren't Tame, but just NOT CLEAN. Why? because
they defiled themselves eating what they should not.

In Aramaic there's one word to express this status: "Maseiv" (common,
defiled, made dirty, contaminated).
When something is Maseiv, it can clean yet, but when something is
Tame, then it is always unclean (not ritually valid).

Well That's all, i think you'll easily realize that most of (or maybe
all) unclean animals eat something else than just yerek esev.

Shalom u'brachah.

-XuS-

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[Bryce Henderson]

These five articles are on the Jerusalem Council webpage in the "Articles" section under the "Giyur" heading. I believe that you will understand why we reject the Noachide precepts. Enjoy! :O)

Jewish Conversion 

Jewish Conversion: From Abram to Abraham 

Keeping the Covenant 

Orthodox Conversion: A Biblical Perspective 

Orthodox Jewish Conversion: Esther 8:17 and 9:27

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held byJerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

[GORDON LAMBERT]

Common sense tells me it was handed down from generation to generation.  Which when you look at their ages, the generations don't go too deep.
In fact, look at Cane and Abel.  How did they know to build an alter?  Did they just make it up out of nothing?  " Hey cane, lets make something up, and see how our creator will react."  No, I believe the boys got the info from their father, who was told how to keep it all in the Kingdom.  Everything that was
decided was decided before the foundations of the world.  Including but not limited to the details on how to worship Ha-Shem.  I can't imagine the creator
making a mistake of any kind.  Especially making stuff up as he went.  I believe Noah knew full well, because his parents told him.  How else could you explain
in the text that he found favor in G-d's eyes.  If Noah didn't have anything to be obedient to,  then how could he find favor amongst a bunch of Heathens? The fact that there was a difference in the text made regarding a difference between the two clean and unclean says volums to me.  I would say look in the Hebrew Etymological dictionary for the Hebrew order of the letters of each word used in that story to see if the Aleph and Tav show up.  Or take 10 different translations of english, and see if the the translators are tripping all over the words there. 
 
Just some thought's. 
 
Shalom achi 
 
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 03:18:10 -0700
> Subject: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
> From: chu...@hotmail.com
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> CC: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Israel]

And then there's this one. It's been sitting in my dusty draft shelf in Wordpress among the hundreds of other drafts I've not published yet.

The Torah Before Noah -  A Refutation of Noachide Theology

Shalom,

Israel

[XuS Casal]

THank you so much, I actually read already the Torah in Hebrew, but thank you anyway.
 
Shalom
-XuS-
 

---

From: lamb...@msn.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:20:26 -0700

[XuS Casal]

Shalom Israel and brother that sent me all of this material to read. I really enjoyed it, and now i understand the point. But you know? I lived with Noahide teaching for many years and when I read all of this material a lot of questions come to me, so I'd like if Israel pleases to clean my doubts.
 
I will make my questions in the way of counter arguments, but please, understand that what I want is an answer, ok? So Let's Go:
 
PART I. Jewish Conversion (Esther)
 
- well, what i see here is true but:
   1- Using the Textus Receptus as the basic presentation and the LXX are not actually necessary, coz 1st, Original text in Hebrew is very understandable, and it is highly probable that the origianl Nazarene text were Aramaic (not greek; and anyway Textus Receptus is not the best choice). That actually doesn't change anything, coz the Peshitta uses the same terminology and is perfectly clear.
   2- Here it is suggested that Judaizing Gentiles was the common behavior at the time of the apostles, because Noahide law didn't exist yet. Well...  the Judaizers were a minority sect (not the common) and writen Noahide law evidence is found since 2 Centuries before Yeshua. Book of Jubilees 7:20-28.
  "And in the twenty-eighth jubelee Noah began to enjoin upon his sons' sons the ordinances and commandments, and all the judgments that he knew, and he exhorted his sons to observe righteousness, and to cover the shame of their flesh, and to bless their Creator, and honour father and mother, and love their neighbour, and guard their souls from fornication and uncleanness and all iniquity. For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth ... For whoso sheddeth man's blood, and whoso eateth the blood of any flesh, shall all be destroyed from the earth."
 
PART II. A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE.
 
I Highly recommend to read this for the new believers, but sincerely, I don't see how all of this concern with Noahide Law.
 
PART III. Keeping the Covenant.
 
-Again, I find this teaching to be correct. However, we should keep the Torah, but it doesn't mean to take a personality that is not ours (like Yakov did). No one is obligated or can, or should, fulfill ALL 613 commandments. Why? Because the Levites have more commandments to fulfill than the rest of the tribes. Because women have less commands to obey than men, and therefore, I'd say that Gentiles have less precepts to obey than Jews. 
 
PART IV. from Abram to ABRAHAM.
 
-According to Romans 4:8-12, Abraham was justified by faith before circumcision, so that the Gentiles (non Jews) are also justified in the same way, so he is the father of all who believe without being circumcised.
 
PART V. Jewish Conversion.
 
-Here you mention the Jerusalm Council (Acts 15) as something that is immediately expected from the new converts. I understand that, but for the truly Convert into Judaism, what is expected is to Keep All the Torah of Moses (which is not about eat blood or strangled, but Eat Not Kosher foods).

The main point of that chapter is that Apostles were making Gentiles to convert into God’s way (Act 15:3) but Jews said: gentile must be converted into Judaism to be saved (circumcised and obey all the Torah) (Act 15:5, meaning that convert gentiles were not circumcised). Then the Council arrived to the 5 commandments for the Gentiles Halacha. With the argument that, they will listen to the Torah every Shabbat and they will grow up slowly (Act 15:21), (and if they want, one day they will become Jews).

Anyway, what do you think about the thousand good Christians that follow the Bible as good as they can in the way they understand it… They are not part of God’s family just because they didn’t (and they won’t) become Jews? I’m curious about that.

 

PART VI. Refutation to Noahide Law.

 

Hosea 6:7 Like Adam, they (Israel) have broken the covenant— they were unfaithful to me there.

Question: What Covenant did Israel break that Hosea says that Adam did too?

-Don’t need to be the same covenant of Torah, but the same way Adam broke the covenant (of don’t eat from the Tree of knowledge) Israel broke their covenant (of Torah), so both of them, Adam and Israel were unfaithful to God. We notice that is not the same Covenant because Hosea say: Brit (a covenant), and not: HaBrit (the covenant).

Gen 2:15 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan And the Lord God took the man from the mountain of worship, where he had been created, and made him dwell in the garden of Eden, to do service in the Torah, and to keep its commandments.

-Then why Abraham didn’t obey the Torah when he Got married with his sister? Why Noah got drunk? Why Enoch didn’t circumcise?

Question: By what Torah does Cain know how to “do well” in regards to offering the fruit of the ground?

-According to Jude 1:11 Caín did bad because he run greedly (means: didn’t actually wanna offer anything to God, and that concerns directly with the Noahide laws in many ways).

Question: By what Torah is Abel’s offering of the “firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions” regarded by HaShem?

-According to Hebrews 11:4 He did that by Faith (what could mean that came from his heart, and not by God's commant).

Question: The last time God cursed someone is when Adam and Eve sinned. Now Cain is cursed… so does God curse when there is no sin committed?

-According with the Talmud: God commanded Adam to don’t kill. (implicit in Gn 2:16-17 where to die is a bad thing), so Caín knew that to make someone die is sin.

Question: How did Enoch walk with God if there was no Torah supposedly given yet?

-According to the precepts of Adam.

Question: How can man be charged with wickedness before Noah was given his commands? According to what standard did mankind engage, that is accounted as the wickedness that God saw? Where was that standard given to mankind? When?

-When God gave the 6 commandments to Adam.

Question: Which food is edible, which is not? Is there a food that is NOT edible to contrast the addition of the adjective to food “that is edible?” Where is that standard defined?

- That's the main point of this Topic. I said: mankind should eat only vegetables and fruits, so do animals. Flesh were not edible.

Question: By what standard are clean animals defined? Question: By what standard are unclean animals defined?

-They were not unclean but: Not Clean, coz they ate the food that shouldn’t eat.

Question: By what Torah does Noah know how to build an altar?

-Altar in Hebrew is Mizbeach, which means: “place to kill” (mi; where, from. Zabach; slaughter).

Question: By what Torah does he limit the offering of only clean animals? Why does he not offer an unclean animals?

-NOT Clean animals didn’t obey God (in eating only herbage), How could God accept them?

Question: According to what teaching or instruction does he [Noah] offer a BURNT offering?

-He learned from Hevel, God didn’t asked, God only accepted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:28:05 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[YAS2015]

Shalom XuS Casal,

 

While I am sure that Israel will do a great job in explaining his view point, I noticed some errors in your assumptions that I have to point out.

 

Part 1
1. We are 100% sure that Matthew was written in Hebrew because many early scolars such as Jerome, Esubius and others state as such. The Netzarim would have used the Ketuvim Netzarim in Hebrew in their synagogues naturally since they were very well versed in Hebrew as noted by the previous scolars. Also, Kefa and the other Netzarim were well noted for being "uneducated" so it is highly doubtful that they would have known how to read and write in anything other than Hebrew and Aramaic. Now, Rav Shaul most likely would have been educated in the languages of the day since he was not only a Pharisee of Pharisees, but an Essene as well.

2. a. Please define "Judaizing Gentiles" as you know it. If it is as the Christian Church has taught for over 1,000 years, that is an Anti-semitic religious belief. If it means something else, please forgive me. However, to "Judaize" is an Honorable thing and is being most like Messiah Yeshua and His Talmidim and what they taught. To Judaize is the process in which someone converts. A "Judaizer" is a person that is converting or has converted.

   b. The Noahide Laws maybe in the Book of Jubilees, however, they are also in the Torah as well. They are apart of the 613 Laws of Moses. They are the civil laws that are encoded into the Laws of Messiah/Instructions of G-d.

 

Part III

If your assertion is correct that no one can do all 613 Mitzvot, my reply is thus:

   1. If a gentile is pleading the Blood of Yeshua, Stop! This is the same act as the High Priest does every year in the Holy of Holies. So please stop doing the job of the "Jewish High Priest on Yom Kippurim."

   2. If a Gentile CANNOT complete the 613 Mitzvot in the Torah, then the Gentile must complete the 1050 New Commands in the Brit Hashasha! (I got a 3.0 in College Algebra and Graduated from the US Army so anything over 4 is Higher Math to me, but 613 seems much easier to me brother.)

   3. Israel - Can you remember which verse in the Torah (Sh'Mot, I think) that clearly states that we CAN fulfill ALL the Mitzvah?

 

Part IV

To teach that Gentiles are NOT required to get circumsized is to reject the Avrahamic Covenant altogether. However, in keeping with the Torah and the life of Avraham, Avraham lived a righteous life long before he circumsized himself. Thus, it is better for a gentile to live a righteous life, attend a synagogue to learn the laws of Moses with the goal of circumcision, however, if the gentile dies before circumcision happens he is still a righteous man.

 

Part V

a. Gentiles did not grow up with Torah like a Jew did so the gentile would not be expected to convert immediately. As a Jewish boy grows, there is a bar Mitzvah at age 13 so the taking on the Yoke of the Mitzvah does take time yet it is not difficult.

b. Jews have never been saved by circumcision and obeying all the Torah so I am not sure how you can make the argument "but Jews said: gentile must be converted into Judaism to be saved (circumcised and obey all the Torah)." The Jewish People have salvation by the unmerited grace by Hashem and Hashem alone. Hashem grants Yeshua to whom He desires and when He desires. We obey all the Torah because Hashem is our FATHER. And we want to please our FATHER since we are His Children. We circumcize our children because the Torah commands us to do so on the 8th day. The Torah is the Memre/Word of Hashem. In other words, Hashem has commanded us to circumcize our children and in order to be called HIS CHILDREN  WE have to live according to His Commands, Precepts, Rules, Regulations, Laws, His Memre, and Ha Ruach Adonai.

c. Good Christians - I have a saying that it is better to be in the dungeons of Heaven that to be in the Penthouse of Hell. However, that being stated, that term is difficult to define since the term Christianity is by definition Anti-Torah per Bishop Ignatious, Constatine, Augustine, the Nicean Council, the Council of Laodecea (spelling), etc... This term is used 3 times in the Aramaic Peshitta 3 times. All 3 times it is by heathens directing what we would consider 4 letter accrinims (spelling) at Gentile followers of the way. The correct terminology for gentile beleivers according to the Ketuvim Netzarim is Messianic. Jews are never referred to as Messianic. We are referred to as Netzarim or Nazerean Jews.

 

Boker Tov,

Yacov

[iserv...@mac.com]

Please provide support for your assertion that Paul was also an Essene. Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone

[YAS2015]

Shalom,

 

Here is the information that you have asked for.

 

Paul reminds his readers that he spent three years in Damascus (Gal. 1:17). This is no accident. Paul was reminding his readers that he knew what he was talking about. He had spent the required three years of study required to enter the Essene community, and not just anywhere, but at Damascus, the birthplace of Essene Judaism.

In Acts we read about Paul just before he became a believer in Messiah:

Now Shaul was yet full of the threat and anger of
murder against the talmidim of our Adon. And he
asked for letters from the Chief Cohen to give to
Darm’suk (Damascus) to the synagogues, that if he
should find any who follow in this way, men or
women, he might bind and bring them to
Yerushalayim.
(Acts 9:1-2)

Now why would Shaul want to go to Damascus to pursue the followers of Yeshua? The first followers of Yeshua were from the Essenes. We also learned that Essene Judaism was born in Damascus and that its followers, like the Nazarenes, called their movement “the Way”.

Now while on his way to Damascus Paul encounters the resurrected Yeshua and himself becomes a believer in Yeshua as the Messiah (Acts 9:3-7). AS instructed by Yeshua, Paul enters Damascus and makes contact with the followers of Yeshua there (Acts 9:8-19). In his letter to the Galatians Paul describes these events as follows:

And I did not go to Yerushaliyim to the emissaries
who were before me, but I went to Arabia and again
returned to Darm’suk (Damascus), and after three
years, I went to Yerushalayim to seek Kefa and
remained with him fifteen days.
(Gal. 1:17-18)

Why did Paul remain for three years in Damascus? Because it took three years to be fully admitted into the Essene community. As Josephus writes:

But now if any one has a mind to come over to their sect, he is not immediately admitted, but he is prescribed the same method of living which they use for a year, while he continues excluded'; and they give him also a small hatchet, and the fore-mentioned girdle, and the white garment. And when he has given evidence, during that time, that he can observe their continence, he approaches nearer to their way of living, and is made a partaker of the waters of purification; yet is he not even now admitted to live with them; for after this demonstration of his fortitude, his temper is tried two more years; and if he appear to be worthy, they then admit him into their society.
(Wars 2:8:7)

Paul went through the entire process of learning the ins and outs of Essene Judaism and he wants his Galatian audience to know that while he was a leading Pharisee scholar, he also studied Essenism for the required three years in its birthplace.

May your fast be easy!

Yacov

--------------

[Israel]

Shalom Xus,

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 9:08 AM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
PART I. Jewish Conversion (Esther)
 
- well, what i see here is true but:
   1- Using the Textus Receptus as the basic presentation and the LXX are not actually necessary, coz 1st, Original text in Hebrew is very understandable, and it is highly probable that the origianl Nazarene text were Aramaic (not greek; and anyway Textus Receptus is not the best choice). That actually doesn't change anything, coz the Peshitta uses the same terminology and is perfectly clear.

It was necessary to compare the contrasts between how Paul used the word for circumcision, and how it was used by the LXX translators, implying that the term "circumcision" was equated with "became Jews."
 

   2- Here it is suggested that Judaizing Gentiles was the common behavior at the time of the apostles, because Noahide law didn't exist yet. Well...  the Judaizers were a minority sect (not the common) and writen Noahide law evidence is found since 2 Centuries before Yeshua. Book of Jubilees 7:20-28.
  "And in the twenty-eighth jubelee Noah began to enjoin upon his sons' sons the ordinances and commandments, and all the judgments that he knew, and he exhorted his sons to observe righteousness, and to cover the shame of their flesh, and to bless their Creator, and honour father and mother, and love their neighbour, and guard their souls from fornication and uncleanness and all iniquity. For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth ... For whoso sheddeth man's blood, and whoso eateth the blood of any flesh, shall all be destroyed from the earth."

Compelling people from the nations to "become Jews" through the Jewish conversion process, as a prerequisite to keeping Torah, is standard practice even today in modern orthodox Judaism. Ask any orthodox rabbi what a gentile has to do in order to keep Passover this year. What will the response be?

   
PART III. Keeping the Covenant.
 
-Again, I find this teaching to be correct. However, we should keep the Torah, but it doesn't mean to take a personality that is not ours (like Yakov did). No one is obligated or can, or should, fulfill ALL 613 commandments. Why? Because the Levites have more commandments to fulfill than the rest of the tribes. Because women have less commands to obey than men, and therefore, I'd say that Gentiles have less precepts to obey than Jews. 

I fully agree that Torah lays out laws for priests, laws for levites, and laws for women, but the laws that are unique to Israel as a nation verses other nations only appear in contrast to what a gentile can do (such as eating torn flesh) - which is a prohibition for us, but an allowance - a choice - a gentile can make, a choice that is not a command, but rather a "you may sell" allowance (choice) for us, and a "they may eat" (choice) for them. The gentile has the choice to buy torn flesh, an allowance, not a command. Why? It's to show them that they choose to not identify with Israel.  In fact, in every case in Torah where an Israelite is prohibited from something that a Gentile is permitted to do the choice given to the Gentile causes them to take responsibility themselves to choose to identify with Israel (and keep the prohibition accordingly) or reject the prohibition and thus by choice THEY separate themselves from Israel. Unlike being a woman, or a levite, or a priest, a gentile CAN choose to become a Jew, to join Israel, and walk in the mitzvot. This is the point Torah makes. There is no separation between Gentile and Jew, unless the Gentile chooses to separate from G-d and thus become an idolater, rejecting the mitzvot.

This is the point: there are no commands unique to Israel that a gentile can not eventually do if he wanted to, unlike commands unique to priests, levites, and women (or men), that no Israelite could do if they aren't already one of those three, even if they wanted to. Thus to use the example of unique commands for priests, levites, and women, as proof that Israel is given a Torah that gentiles can not do, nor should do, nor have to do, completely falls flat when the uniqueness of the identity of priests, levites, and women being irrevocable, is ignored in the argument; whereas a gentile can become a Jew (and is so commanded to become one, as he is obligated by Torah to refrain from idolatry, the first so-called noachide law!) and thus fulfill his obligation to Torah as one fully submitted to HaShem.

This is why all peoples who come to Messiah are identified as being of the nation of Israel - Jews in the modern definition - obligated to Torah. That is why Revelation mentions 12 gates of the tribes of Israel, but there is no gate of the Gentiles! That is why the "new covenant" spoken of by the Prophet Jeremiah is for "Judah" and "Israel" and the Gentiles are noticeably absent! After all, if we think a gentile who comes to Messiah remains a gentile by spiritual definition, then what is his "baptism" for if not conversion to Judaism? If we hold the actions of the apostles accountable to Torah, then where in Torah do we ever learn that a gentile is obligated to immersion in water, upon repentance? Instead, we find the Torah teaching that one goes through water for the purpose of being identified as a Jew, in order that they may too become guardians of the Torah from Sinai. What an incredible joy the erev rav must have had when they left Egypt, crossed the sea, and G-d called them "Israel" from Sinai!
 

 
PART IV. from Abram to ABRAHAM.
 
-According to Romans 4:8-12, Abraham was justified by faith before circumcision, so that the Gentiles (non Jews) are also justified in the same way, so he is the father of all who believe without being circumcised.

Precisely. One has a Jewish neshama first, prior to any formal conversion. Paul mentions this when he speaks of the "elect of G-d." There is only one chosen people.
 

 
PART V. Jewish Conversion.
 
-Here you mention the Jerusalm Council (Acts 15) as something that is immediately expected from the new converts. I understand that, but for the truly Convert into Judaism, what is expected is to Keep All the Torah of Moses (which is not about eat blood or strangled, but Eat Not Kosher foods).

Precisely. But neither were the new believers from the nations immediately compelled to get circumcised by the ruling of Acts 15. They were to be recognized as fully-participating covenant members, short of what is required for Passover (circumcision) with the expectation that they would grow in their learning of Torah.

The same is true of Israel when she crossed the sea. The Torah was given to be her behavioral responsibility over a period of time, and not all at once, although she had the entire Torah in her possession from the Beginning.

Consider Abraham, he was a covenant member, for 13 years at least, before G-d demanded of him to get circumcised or else be cut off from the covenant!
 

The main point of that chapter is that Apostles were making Gentiles to convert into God’s way (Act 15:3) but Jews said: gentile must be converted into Judaism to be saved (circumcised and obey all the Torah) (Act 15:5, meaning that convert gentiles were not circumcised). Then the Council arrived to the 5 commandments for the Gentiles Halacha. With the argument that, they will listen to the Torah every Shabbat and they will grow up slowly (Act 15:21), (and if they want, one day they will become Jews).

Correct.
 

Anyway, what do you think about the thousand good Christians that follow the Bible as good as they can in the way they understand it… They are not part of God’s family just because they didn’t (and they won’t) become Jews? I’m curious about that.

As I implied above, a Jew is one inwardly before they are outwardly. The Talmud also recognizes this, that a "convert comes to convert" and not "a gentile comes to convert." A convert already is. The formal conversion then is a community recognition of an already existing reality (the reality that the person has  always had a Jewish soul and now it has returned).

 

PART VI. Refutation to Noahide Law.

 

Hosea 6:7 Like Adam, they (Israel) have broken the covenant— they were unfaithful to me there.

Question: What Covenant did Israel break that Hosea says that Adam did too?

-Don’t need to be the same covenant of Torah, but the same way Adam broke the covenant (of don’t eat from the Tree of knowledge) Israel broke their covenant (of Torah), so both of them, Adam and Israel were unfaithful to God. We notice that is not the same Covenant because Hosea say: Brit (a covenant), and not: HaBrit (the covenant).

The same covenant Israel broke is the same as the covenant Adam had. What other covenant did they both break? Consider the argument being made here: if the covenant that Israel broke was the Torah, then it logically follows that it was the Torah that Adam broke. Consider that in Torah, all the commands concerning "adam" the word for man, can just as easily apply to Adam, the first man - then you will find that there is more to the covenant that was made with Adam (and hopefully you will discover that it's one and the same - after all, where is Eden if not Israel?).

As it is understood what was written of what G-d commanded Adam:

"be fruitful" - have the fruit of the spirit, which is the result of obedience to Torah
"multiply" - make disciples of all nations
"fill the earth" - fill the earth with Torah which is the knowledge of Messiah
"and subdue it" - teaching everything to obey all that he commands, which is the Torah.

It is none other than the "Great Commission." Which includes "teach them to observe all that I have commanded you." Which is the Torah.

Then follow up with "you will eat bread by the sweat of your brow" - he is commanded to eat bread, which any sage will tell you can be used to teach that he was to study and do Torah. That is why I show that this was known even in Yeshua's day with the targumim below:

Gen 2:15 Targum Pseudo-Jonathan And the Lord God took the man from the mountain of worship, where he had been created, and made him dwell in the garden of Eden, to do service in the Torah, and to keep its commandments.

-Then why Abraham didn’t obey the Torah when he Got married with his sister?

Perhaps she was instead a sister-in-law to Abraham, and thus a daughter-in-law to Terach? Consider this: perhaps Abraham's mother died before Abraham's younger brother Haran married Sarah - someone who was not related at all to anyone in Abrahams' family by birth. She would have been counted as the daughter (in-law) of Abraham's father Terach (but not of Terach's dead wife aka Abraham's mother), and also called Abraham's sister (in-law). Then if Haran died and without offspring, she would have been the childless widow of Abraham's dead brother Haran, in which case as the eldest single brother Abraham would be obligated to marry her, according to Torah, and raise offspring which would carry his dead brother's name (the obligation completed with the birth of Ishmael). A levirate marriage.

Why Noah got drunk?

There is no prohibition for drunkenness in Torah.

Why Enoch didn’t circumcise?

How do you know? If Enoch "walked with G-d" The sages even go so far to say that Adam was created circumcised, and Noach was born circumcised.

Question: By what Torah does Cain know how to “do well” in regards to offering the fruit of the ground?

-According to Jude 1:11 Caín did bad because he run greedly (means: didn’t actually wanna offer anything to God, and that concerns directly with the Noahide laws in many ways).

I'm not certain Jude 1:11 can be explained to show that the "way of Cain" is anything other than "slander" as mentioned in Jude 1:10. Which Torah equates to murder anyways.

I am of the opinion though that Torah teaches us what Cain's sin was (as it teaches us answers to everything else): he had something against his brother when he brought his offering, and as firstborn priest of his family, he therefore did not represent his brother in his offering (since this is the responsibility that Torah lays out concerning the High Priest, a priesthood which is a continuation of the priesthood of the firstborn).

He was also obligated to bring the firstfruits, the bikkurim, which he violated by not bringing such, and as priest of the family, he failed in his service as priest on Bikkurim - upon which two loves (for he was a tiller the ground like his father Adam who was told "you shall eat bread by the sweat of your brow") are waved, representing reconciliation of two parties before HaShem, as well as obedience to Torah. His failure to do so properly led to the series of sin that led to Abel's murder, for he sought to take as the lone heir that which was his brother's, the blessing that was his due for bring Bikkurim.

Question: By what Torah is Abel’s offering of the “firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions” regarded by HaShem?

-According to Hebrews 11:4 He did that by Faith (what could mean that came from his heart, and not by God's commant).

So is Torah teaching that it's ok to bring an offering not instructed about in Torah? Didn't Nadav and Abihu make that mistake - the consequences of which were fatal?

Question: The last time God cursed someone is when Adam and Eve sinned. Now Cain is cursed… so does God curse when there is no sin committed?

-According with the Talmud: God commanded Adam to don’t kill. (implicit in Gn 2:16-17 where to die is a bad thing), so Caín knew that to make someone die is sin.

Good answer.

Question: How did Enoch walk with God if there was no Torah supposedly given yet?

-According to the precepts of Adam.

Agreed. But perhaps we disagree on much Torah was given to Adam?

Question: How can man be charged with wickedness before Noah was given his commands? According to what standard did mankind engage, that is accounted as the wickedness that God saw? Where was that standard given to mankind? When?

-When God gave the 6 commandments to Adam.

Even just one commandment leads to the others.

Question: Which food is edible, which is not? Is there a food that is NOT edible to contrast the addition of the adjective to food “that is edible?” Where is that standard defined?

- That's the main point of this Topic. I said: mankind should eat only vegetables and fruits, so do animals. Flesh were not edible.

Good answer. The allowance to eat flesh was only given as a result of sin, which led to the flood.

Question: By what standard are clean animals defined? Question: By what standard are unclean animals defined?

-They were not unclean but: Not Clean, coz they ate the food that shouldn’t eat.

I would call that a stretch, since no reason is given in Torah for why some animals are clean and others are not. "Not Clean" is the same in Gen as it is in Leviticus.

Question: By what Torah does Noah know how to build an altar?

-Altar in Hebrew is Mizbeach, which means: “place to kill” (mi; where, from. Zabach; slaughter).

But it is written he built an altar, so it was not just a place, but something he also built. Where did he get his instruction in how to build an altar? The Torah of course!

Question: By what Torah does he limit the offering of only clean animals? Why does he not offer an unclean animals?

-NOT Clean animals didn’t obey God (in eating only herbage), How could God accept them?

First, there is no definition of "not clean" animals as being herbivores. Even then that doesn't answer the question above asking what Torah does he  know to limit the offering to only clean animals? The terms used are the same used in Leviticus.

Question: According to what teaching or instruction does he [Noah] offer a BURNT offering?

-He learned from Hevel, God didn’t asked, God only accepted.

As explained above, then the conclusion to holding this explanation as true, is to believe that the Torah teaches that it's ok to bring an offering that G-d does not command, yet Torah clearly prohibits this.


I look forward to your answers.

Shalom,

Israel

[XuS Casal]

Shalom friend, i would also answer your answers if i may:
 
Part 1.1 I agree, but i'm sorry. Paul wasn't Essene. He was Pharisean. Bible say so.
Part 1.2 I Use the term judaize as something good, but that wasn't the common behavior in old judaism, It was the behavior of a minority sect as I said.
 
Part III gentile pleading the blood of Yeshua is a high priest thing?? I'm not sure about that. Yeshua is the High Priest (according to Melquitsedek), not us. And yeah, we can living in obedience to the Torah, but there's some precepts that are not for us. So i continue saying the same. Women have less commandments to follow than men, Levites have less commandments to follow than other tribes, married have more commandments than singles... etc etc.. So I'd say Gentiles have less precepts to obey than Jews.
Part III.2 1050 commandments of What? The Nazarene Writings cannot add anything to Torah, so the commandments still be 613.
 
Part IV 90% Agree
 
Part V.a Agree
Part V.b I didn't make an argument, I read From Chapter 15 in the book of Acts, and I also gave the verse. 
Part V.c Actually Messianic is not mentioned in Bible, as you said. Peshitta didn't use the word Christian (כריסטינא), but Krestinah (כרסטינא), translated in the most old greek maniscripts as: Krestianos. that literally means: People (~anos) of kindness (Krestos). That can be translated in Hebrew as: Hassidim or Anshei Chesed. Acts 6:5 mentions that some people were Proselyte, what means to me that NOT ALL the gentiles were Proselytes.
 
I really enjoy this conversation and I'm thankful you took the time to answer. As I said, If I don't ask, I Won't learn so that's why I speak in this way. Thank you very much. In few hours I'm gonna be hospitalized, so please, don't forget to pray for me.
 
Shalom
-XuS-
ps: have a good Purim. 
 
 
 
 

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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:38:09 -0400

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

From: yas...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Jeff Ashman]

B"H
 
Kefa and the other Netzarim were Galileans, and so would have spoken Aramaic and Greek.  At that time, Hebrew was mostly a liturgical language used in the synagogues and in the Holy Temple, but there were many Jews who no longer spoke Hebrew.  As for the Gospels, the original Matthew was probably written in Aramaic, and possibly John.  Mark was most likely a Greek paraphrase of Matthew, and Luke and Acts were most likely written in Greek, because Luke was a Gentile doctor, and was writing to a Greek associate of his.  Most of the letters were probably written in Greek, because Rav Shaul's audience were mostly Gentiles who would not have spoken Aramaic or Hebrew.  So, to categorigally state that they would have used Hebrew is not borne out in the evidence that is available.  As for Rav Shaul being an Essene, there is no evidence to support that.
 
Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

 

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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:38:09 -0400

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

From: yas...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[YAS2015]

I think that you are forgetting the G-d fearers/Proselytes of the gate which was quite large 2000 years ago due to  the attraction of the nobility of Jewish worship and to the truth of the One true G-d. They never became Jews and this group existed even before Yeshua al Natzeret began His ministry.

--

[XuS Casal]

Thank you so Much. I don't really wanna reply your answers, coz I think I agree with them,
But anyway, If I have to take out the Standard of Noahide Law in my understanding of Bible (and reject part of the Talmud), then I Need to study again all of the process, and Thousand Questions gonna come, coz my teacher of Torah believed in Noahide Law.
 
For example, you could tell me: if the foreigners that live with Jews have the same Torah as Israel (that we could call proselytes, as Rabbis did), Then what happen with the Gentiles that Do not live in Israel but are righteous? (Coz the Talmud states that they are Noahides, and a "spiritual" part of the covenant of God before the Torah).
Another point in Talmud is clear that God gave the Torah only to Israel, and the rest of Nations should live according to the Noahide law (unless they wanna be Jewish).
Well as I said, I Got thousand Questions in my head.
Thank you Israel, You were really helpful.
 
Shalom, and don't forget to pray about my operation, have a good Purim.
 
-XuS-
 
  
 

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From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:59:45 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Israel]

Shalom Xus,

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 4:09 PM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

For example, you could tell me: if the foreigners that live with Jews have the same Torah as Israel (that we could call proselytes, as Rabbis did), Then what happen with the Gentiles that Do not live in Israel but are righteous? (Coz the Talmud states that they are Noahides, and a "spiritual" part of the covenant of God before the Torah).

I think I might need to see a reference so I can understand the Talmudic argument being made.  In the Torah I can not recall there being a specific mention of the term "righteous gentiles" although the Talmud does use this term, and it shows up in the Amidah. It is important to note that Israel herself is called a ger by HaShem, and if Israel is righteous, then she is a righteous ger.

I guess in my mind the best application of understanding a "righteous ger" is not to view one as separated from Israel (for there truly is no such thing as a "righteous pagan"), but they are a proselyte who has not yet gone through the formal conversion process. As such are not equated to the proselytes who have gone through that process (for accountability reasons), but for all intents and purposes, except the Passover circumcision requirement for males, the rightoeus ger participates in the Torah of Israel, as a spiritual Jew - one who has a Jewish neshama but has not yet made full teshuvah by going through conversion and thus is not held as accountable to Torah by the community as a proselyte who has gone through circumcision and the mikveh before a beit din. Such a person is on their way to conversion, but conversion is still the ultimate goal (for without which they are unable to partake of Pesach) even though they are taking a longer time to reach that point than others.

Another point in Talmud is clear that God gave the Torah only to Israel, and the rest of Nations should live according to the Noahide law (unless they wanna be Jewish).

According to Torah, the Torah is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, and this is absolutely so! Yet this should not stop Israel from teaching it to the world, for Israel has an obligation to bring Torah to the nations, as it is written in Torah that Israel was to offer terms of shalom to the nations around her. This midrashically can refer to the instruction to teach Messiah (who is called sar sharlom) to the world.

From Gen 37:14 We see that when others have shalom, the Word is brought back as it is written "Go and see if shalom is with your brothers and shalom is with the flock and bring back Davar..."

Therefore it is Israel's responsibility to bring Shalom/Messiah/Word/Torah to the world, and yes, give the message of Torah to the gentiles who want to be Jewish. Upon their formal conversion, they take upon themselves the accountability of the Jewish community that accepts them, and in exchange they take upon themselves the responsibility for being the visible "keepers of the oracles of G-d" as Paul puts it as the "advantage" of the Jew - meaning that it is the Jew's privilege (and responsibility) is to teach Torah to the nations and therefore they are to guard it (so as to do it) as an example to them.
 

Well as I said, I Got thousand Questions in my head.
Thank you Israel, You were really helpful.
 
Shalom, and don't forget to pray about my operation, have a good Purim.
 
-XuS-

I will say tehillim for you my brother, and  keep you in prayer for a successful operation, to HaShem be the glory!

Shalom,

Israel

[Michael]

Shalom all,

I need to re-read the ideas that Xus is suggesting. Animals "eating things they shouldn't" interesting. The difference between "unclean" and "Lo tameh"  interesting.

My take on the Noachide teaching is that in Gn9: it appears to me that when HaShem says "eat EVERYTHING" he is referring to the "things that live" not everything (kosher and non kosher). If ypu notice the concept is paralleled in lev. The idea about draining the blood and not eating things that "die on their own"- to me is just another way of saying, "drain the blood and eat only things that live (move/animated things).

Genesis 9:3-4

3 You may eat any moving thing that lives. As I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. 4 But you must not eat meat with its life( that is, its blood) in it. 

Leviticus 17:14-15

14 for the life of all flesh is its blood. So I have said to the Israelites: You must not eat the blood of any living thing because the life of every living thing is its blood- all who eat it will be cut off. 15"'Any person who eats an animal that has died of natural causes or an animal torn by beasts, whether a native citizen or a foreigner, must wash his clothes, bathe in water, and be unclean until evening; then he becomes clean. 

This is why I'm wondering what Xus thinks about the classification in gen 1-2. Are you saying the crawling things are unclean and the other animals are clean?

Furthermore we need to be consistent. Many who advocate that the ancient Israelite thought of the "ger" as a procelyte would have to agree that when the Acts council decided to put the same requirements for the "ger" (procelyte) upon the Gentiles who were comming to faith, need to ask themselves, "why put procelyte restrictions on people that are being told not to be procelyte converts?".

Therefore it seems more likely that the Gentiles comming to faith are as Brice has said, and these 4 rulings were an attempt to keep the Gentiles from getting expelled from the synagogues.

[Michael]

[XuS Casal]

Shavua Tov Israel. 
I wanna inform you guys that I've been in hospital and recovering myself from the operation (it went well, though i need to rest yet) so thanks to everyone that prayed for me.
I also wanted (if you don't mind) to continue bombing you with my questions. Not that I don't hav the answers, but I wanna clear my brain, to be sure that everyone here understand the same, coz when I start to study a subject, I need to make clear the essence.
 
Remember that what i want is to find answers and i'm not interested in debating (although I speak in that way). So, let's go.
 
1- How do you understand this verse?
 
"to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.. ..And this I say: the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in the Messiah, the Torah, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect" (Gal 3:17).
 
Here says tha Torah was given 430 years after Abraham (that send us to Sinaí), so it seems that Paul didn't believe that God gave Adam, Enoch or Noah the Torah. That could explain us that they recieved some commandments (that later would be part of the Torah), but Not the Torah.
 
2- How do you understand this verse?
 
"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called." (1Co 7:18-20) 
 
3- What is your opinion about Talmud Sanedrin 56 a & b? [the Noahide law]. Why then should we accept the Halachot of the Oral Torah, if we accept that is not inspired by God by rejecting some parts? Is not the Oral Torah a heavy yoke for everyone, but the yoke of Messiah a light yoke?
 
4- Some gentiles that Paul preached never reached the circumcision (you can deduce this by reading his writtings), so are they lost?
 
5- I've been thinking what you said about Talmud, that Adam was born circumcised. I wonder if that scene can be found when female part of Adam is taken from him and he says: This is flesh of my flesh.
 
6- You said (about Noah): there's no prohibition for drunkenness in Torah and that's absolutly true. But in Talmud (Oral Torah) drunkenness is actually compared with idolatry (that is sin) (M. Tanchum, Noach 13); Did Noah know the Oral Torah? Or did he know the Written Torah of Moses?
 
7- About Hevel's sacrifice you answered wisely (and of course I agree) that we cannot offer foreign fire. But what i said it comes from Maimonides. He said that Hevel offered the sacrifice by himself (in the last days; maybe a reference to Yom Teruah). RambaM stated that There wasn't foreign fire, coz there wasn't Torah yet. God accepted the sacrifice, and in the time of Torah He regulated the law about sacrifices with the intention that one day the physical burn offerings will cease, coz: "Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in" (Psalm 40:6) (I actually see that verse out of context, but that's how Maimonides understand it).
 
I still have a bunch of questions but i think these are already a lot. Hope to don't waste your time, and be Blessed.
 
Shalom
-XuS-
 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:41:27 -0600

[GORDON LAMBERT]

Shaul Uses an interesting word here.  Confirmed.    I Think this is simply a reinstatement of previous renewals.  Yet in this case the renewal or covenant promise was established because Abraham would not walk between the pieces. Thus nullifying his part.  But G-D did.  G-D not only had to keep his promise, but ours too.  Thus he had to become the Sacrifice on our behalf, thus fulfilling the
promise that he would never leave us nor forsake his 12.  I think his mention of 430, is reference point.  The subject here is not the time referencing something that JUST started.  It's Abraham and his seed were the promises made.  Of much Effect.

gl

---

From: chu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 23:05:58 +0000

[ar...@rice.edu]

Baruch Hashem,

The origin of the word "sephirot" comes from the mention of a pavement
of sapphire "clear as the sky itself" in Shemot 24:10. It is a
well-known kabbalistic practice to try to move up the sephirot via
permutation of the tetragrammaton and meditation, but very few can
achieve this without dying or suffering mental damage. The same
practice was attempted in Shemot 24, where it is written: Then went up
Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of
Israel;and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under His feet
the like of a paved work of sapphire stone, and the like of the very
heaven for clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He
laid not His hand; and they beheld God, and did eat and drink. (verses
9-11)
HaShem did not raise His hand on the people when they attempted
approaching His Holiness. Why was this so? BECAUSE they were sprinkled
with the blood of the covenant right before approaching HaShem: (verse
8) And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said:
'Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you
in agreement with all these words.'
All throughout the TaNaK we see sacrifices, for the earth cannot bear
HaShem's Holy Presence, the Shekinah, without the earth being
sprinkled with blood, and not just any blood for even the pagans bring
forth sacrifices to demons, but rather The Blood of the Covenant
"which the LORD hath made with you in agreement with all these words,"
where "all these words refer to the LAW given at Mount Sinai/Horeb in
Shemot chapters 19-24. The only way the earth sustains itself and
bears HaShem's Presence is through the Blood of Yeshua, and the only
way we are made able to walk up the pavement of sapphire, or move up
the sephirot, is by being sprinkled with the Blood of Yeshua, the
Blood of Salvation.

In some of the previous discussions I talked about the blood guarding
us from Demons, but it is not just Demons. It is the Darkness of the
Other Side that most human being are contaminated by, it is the Evil
Inclination most people are contaminated by. For if humans such as the
apostles and the righteous ones are going to judge angels, then we can
see demons and sinners are placed on a somewhat similar scale, as it
is said "they worshiped demons and became as worthless as the demons
themselves." The difference is that Yeshua extends His hand to the
sinner and that is the advantage of the sinner over the demon. But the
demon cannot be blamed for the contaminated soul of the sinner for
acting upon the evil inclination is a free choice of the sinner. There
are some people that just hate G-d and everything good. Are they
possessed? Not necessarily; they are intelligent beings that make s
free choice and they choose the Other Side of Darkness. Their essence
is not filled with the most pure Light of HaShem, but has rather
welcomed the corruption and filthy darkness that makes their soul
layers as if they were decaying flesh. Just because we have no way of
touching or measuring the soul layers or the Holy Spirit with physical
instruments that does not mean they are not organs that are emanations
of Adonai's LIGHT. There is the human body that is made of physical
material and is one type of emanation of not so Holy Light, but
nevertheless think of this: we are all built of atoms,
sooooooooooooooooooo many atoms, and each one of this atoms has
ssssooooooo much energy (recall E=mc2?); where does this energy that
never stops moving the electrons arond the nucleus come from? HaShem,
of course. It is an emanation of LIGHT, it is in the lowest sephirot
of Malkhut. Think of plants. where do plants get their life from? it
is again a different type of energy and light emanation coming from
Hashem, but one different from the physical and untouchable to the
physical. Then animals. Where do animal souls come from, and where do
they go after they die? They are also emanations of Hashem's LIGHT.
Then Human Souls. There are five soul layers, plus the Holy Spirit;
also there may be ibur such as the Spirit of Eliyahu resting on John
the Baptist. These five soul layers again come from Hashem; the soul
layers are emanations of HaShem's LIGHT. One or two of the soul layers
are the ones that come from the most high sephirot. The most righteous
souls come from special heavenly sources; the soul of King David was a
special one; the creation, or better said, the Emanation of a special
soul such as David's is a gift from HaShem, and it usually happens
only through a special conception, or the unity of two special souls.
This accounts for the importance of all the marriage laws, especially
for priestly unions. The conceptions and emanations of pure souls
required pure unions. What about Solomon then? The Zohar is maybe not
so mistaken in approving of David and BathSheba's sin, since, as the
Zohar puts it, THEY WERE SOULMATES. How often did HaShem allow in the
TaNaK and Notzrim writings for sin to happen in order for a better
outcome to be achieved? I am not trying to excuse intentional sinning,
but rather to approve of the logic proposed by the Zohar. Didn't
Israel sin when they rejected the Salvation from G-D? Yes, but YESHUA
PRAYED TO HASHEM THAT HE FORGIVES THEM, and their rejection happened
for a better outcome and the salvation of many. For if they all
believed in Yeshua right away then things would've been soooo much
easier in this world, right? So much positive force put in action
through the Holy Spirit, as Paul says, "Life will come from death,"
but Hashem fro reasons we don't yet understand desires that all things
be made harder for the whole world. As Rabbi Yehuda Ashlag puts it,
the only reason we are in this world is to grow through the
difficulties we experience, and the only time we fulfill the through
purpose we were sent for in this life is everytime we push ourselves
to the limit to do right and fulfill our goals and mission when this
seems most hard to be achieved. If according to Rav Ashlag this is the
only purpose souls are being sent into this world, that through pain
and difficulties they may be made prepared for the world above, why
then expect the Messiah that was to sent to Israel not to go through
this pain and difficulties? He was perfect from the beginning, and He
was with HaShem from the beginning, however the Messiah was not given
full authority until he was "made perfect," or until he demonstrated
his perfection in human "skin," or human body, covered with the lower,
sinful, darker Light Emanation from HaShem, which is the physical
human body. After he endured the suffering Rav Ashlag talks of, he
became eligible for ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND EARTH to be given to
Him, that is now the LORD OF LORDS and KING OF KINGS. The comparison
of the Priest Joshua with Yeshua does not contradict with Christ's
full authority, since he was given this full authority After he went
through the suffering and fulfilled his first purpose of being Yeshua
the Salvation. He was then given authority to rule the nations with an
iron scepter as Messiah ben David. For even while he was on earth,
mocked and tortured, he was still the Son of G-d. Just because there
was someone in heaven at the moment was given the assignment to take
off Joshua's garment doesn't disprove the thesis Joshua the High
Priest might be Yeshua; perhaps the full authority was given only
after the garment was taken off and he was dressed in clean clothes.
Even though Yeshua was mocked and went through the whole proces Rav
Ashlag so elaborately describes in so many of his writings, Yeshua was
still the Son of G-d, He is still the Aleph ve Tav, Alpha and Omega,
the Beginning and the End. As it is said, In the beginning, BeReishit,
Elohim created the Heavens and the Earth. If Yeshua is the Beginning,
the Reshit ראשית, then in Yeshia Elohim created the Heavens and the
earth.
Going back to the topic of 'souls'- all souls are emanations of Light
and Energy coming from G-D, and they contain soooo much energy, more
than we can imagine, since they originate from the most powerful
innermost being of G-D; different souls coming from different levels,
and therefore some souls are from their very emanation predestined to
Love HaShem, and others to hate Him. Furthermore, when they come to
Malkut, which is this earth, they get even more contaminated, and
through worshiping demons they become as worthless as the demons
themselves; the contamination is not always one of demons indwelling,
but rather the very essence of their souls becoming foul and mixed
with the Dark Side - G-d created the light, saw that the Light was
good, and separated the light from the darkness. The interpretations
of this verse are numerous. The light created was not that of the
light visible to human eyes cause the Sun and stares were created
later on. This creation of Light probably refers to the emanation of
the sephirot, and the darkness as we know was already there, but it
was no good for the Light of HaShem to be mixed with the darkness.
This light was different from the Energy of which the physical world
was constructed, so it is from this light that human souls are being
emanated, and therefore the light of our souls must be separated from
the darkness, probably the "darkness over the surface of the deep"?
Once souls are emanated down to Malkut, how can they trace their way
up to Binah/Hokmah where the Kingdom of HaShem is located? How do they
move up the sephirot once they are contaminated by the darkness from
which they were supposed to stay separated? How do they walk up the
pavement of sapphire stones as clear as the sky? ONLY by being
sprinkled with THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT. Even being an atheist means
worshiping the other side, as said in the very first commandment: "I
am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Every
sin places a small god between the sinner and Hashem, a false god the
sinner is subconsciously worshiping, and automatically the soul of the
sinner becomes unworthy of returning back to Hockmah up the sepirot
and up the pavement of sapphire, rendering the sinner as worthless as
a fallen angel.

The milk-meat separation sounds like one of those commandments that we
don't understand, but rather trustfully obey... There are some things
that to human logic, clearly harm the physical, or clearly benefit the
physical, and are banned/recommended w/ Torah commandments. Then there
are those things that are clearly useful/harmful to the soul, to each
different level of the soul. And then there are those things that are
useful/harmful to our souls/bodies, but we do not understand the logic
behind it w/ our human intellect and the science of the day. Just
because we don't understand should we not obey? We will come to
understand the Law most clearly on the day when "Hashem will be One,
and His Name will be One." The Halaka interpretation of the
commandment and the Kosher recipes are intended to overdo rather than
underdo obedience. I'm sure the most kosher laws can theoretically be
less strict, but this level of strictness does not mean legalism -
rather self-imposition of additional reverence, observed to remind us
that in the same manner we guard so carefully what comes into the
mouth, how much more should we guard what comes out of it, for we will
be judged for every empty word spoken. Eventually, what has had more
power from the beginning: the material of this earth, or the spoken
word? Just because we don't see their substance it doesn't mean that
spoken words do not have great spiritual substance to themselves, for
Hashem created the worlds through His Spoken Word. We were made in the
image of Hashem not in the sense of our physical appearance, for even
gorillas share similar physical characteristics with men. We were made
in Adonai's image in the sense that we were given the ability to
create and destroy, to have Will, Wisdom, and Tools to alter the World
around us, and most of all, we have the Spoken Word to alter the
worlds above and bellow. We have a Heart - not in the sense of the
physical heart, for most animals have physical hearts, - but rather we
have a Heart just like Hashem has a Heart, as it is said "My Eyes and
My Heart will be with you;" this heart, a Spiritual Heart which
contains our miniature universe and everything we are aware of
spanning in every dimension of our existence. The thoughts we conceive
in this Heart have also the ability to alter the worlds above and
bellow, to create or destroy both on Heaven and on earth, for it is
written, Abraham's servant "prayed in his heart" and this prayer
stirred up the events on heaven and on earth in order to bring to
Isaac a befitting wife. But just because of all of these great
spiritual commandments regarding what comes out of the mouth and the
heart should we abandon the physical observances? By no means! For as
long as we are in a physical body, the spiritual cannot sustain itself
without the support of the physical. as it is said, "no Torah without
flour," also how are we to have an organized society and life without
physical laws?

Here's an interesting excerpt I found online and wanted to share:
Tikkun 30 – 12
The three middle letters in the first word of the Torah, בְּרֵאשִׁית,
“in the Begining”, רֵאשִׁ, אֲשֶׁר, are the aspect of the source and
the energy that brought about the First Redemption.
Exodus 20:2
“אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם
מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים “,
“I am YHVH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage ”
The initials of the first three letters that represent the upper three
Sefirot, איא, with numerical value of 21 are also conceal the upper
name, אהיה, that sent Moses to lead the Redemption.
אֲשֶׁר is also the letters of רֹא”שׁ, meaning “head”. It is the energy
of Binah that gave birth to Zeir Anpin that made the miracles in Egypt
which lead to the Exodus and the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai.
The words “אֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם”, “Land of Egypt” is mentioned in the Torah
50 times to tell us the connection between leaving Egypt (the Left
Column), and connecting to the light of the Torah, (the Right Column)
and it gives us the connection to the endless energy of Binah.
http://alsfak.blogspot.com/2011/03/words-land-of-egypt-is-mentioned-in.html

Shalom,
Anna

[Kenny Cartwright]

Interesting as always, Anna. Thank you!!!!

[Yochanan Ben Yisrael]

Very good words, I appreciate your time and efforts for the malchut of Yahuah.

B'resheeth/Genesis 4:26

And to Seth, in turn, a son was born, and he named him Enosh. It was then that men began to ( invoke YHWH by name ).

Moreh Yochanan Ben Yisrael

[Israel]

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 5:05 PM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Shavua Tov Israel. 
I wanna inform you guys that I've been in hospital and recovering myself from the operation (it went well, though i need to rest yet) so thanks to everyone that prayed for me.
I also wanted (if you don't mind) to continue bombing you with my questions. Not that I don't hav the answers, but I wanna clear my brain, to be sure that everyone here understand the same, coz when I start to study a subject, I need to make clear the essence.
 
Remember that what i want is to find answers and i'm not interested in debating (although I speak in that way). So, let's go.
 
1- How do you understand this verse?
 
"to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.. ..And this I say: the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in the Messiah, the Torah, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect" (Gal 3:17).
 
Here says tha Torah was given 430 years after Abraham (that send us to Sinaí), so it seems that Paul didn't believe that God gave Adam, Enoch or Noah the Torah. That could explain us that they recieved some commandments (that later would be part of the Torah), but Not the Torah.

When Moshe received the written Torah at Sinai, it could neither add or subtract from the Covenant, the oral Torah that came before. In other words, the Torah existed and has always existed forever, but at one point in time it was given to Moshe in writing (and to the rest of the nation to safeguard), as he was so inspired to write it, and like all works from G-d, it can not contradict what G-d has said before - which means it can not subtract or even add to the Covenant, the Torah, which came before, even though it was only known orally and not written down yet.
 

 
2- How do you understand this verse?
 
"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called." (1Co 7:18-20) 

The same prohibition exists in greater Judaism. When a rabbi believes someone is seeking conversion for the wrong reasons, he is obligated to deny them conversion. What was the wrong reason Paul was denying conversion to his Corinthian and Galatian audience? A "false gospel" of salvation by Jewish identity alone. Yet he circumcises Timothy, proving that there is a reason that is permissible to circumcise...ie convert "for the sake of the Jews" ie to bring someone formally into the family to that he is accepted as such. So like any good orthodox rabbi, Paul did not permit his disciples to convert for the wrong reasons, and permitted conversion for others for the right reasons.
 

 
3- What is your opinion about Talmud Sanedrin 56 a & b? [the Noahide law]. Why then should we accept the Halachot of the Oral Torah, if we accept that is not inspired by God by rejecting some parts? Is not the Oral Torah a heavy yoke for everyone, but the yoke of Messiah a light yoke?

The oral Torah came before the written. G-d spoke it, and Moshe wrote it. Bear in mind "it is not too difficult for you." So then certainly what is truly oral Torah is not "too difficult." Concerning the Noachide laws, various rabbis give different sets of seven because they can not agree on a set list. This is because "if you break one law, you break them all" (James 2:10) - which is older in written tradition than even the Bavli, and carries thus more weight. This leads us to examine and conclude that any command in Torah leads to all the others. Start with the prohibition of idolatry, and continue to avoid "love G-d" or "love your neighbor" - you can't. It is a fact that even the prohibition of idolatry causes one to "love G-d" and "love your neighbor" which our Master Yeshua taught is that which also "hangs all the Torah and Prophets" - not one mitzvah missing. If the entire Torah can be derived from "love G-d" which is the logical companion of the prohibition on idolatry, then the entire Torah is meant.

So what then are the Sages referring to when Noach is given seven? To the context wherein we derive further application and understanding of those laws. The entire Torah is one document. One part explains another, and HaShem reserves explaining one halacha until a more suitable position in Torah appears to support its multidimensional, perfectly divinely inspired order from which "derash d'rosh" leads one to understand a matter. One can not unravel one mitzvah without unravelling all the others, and in this we see the Torah is intertwined. (Consider the laws about not eating blood, from when we do understand what it is if not from other parts and contexts in Torah prohibiting the same?) So then consider that the Seven Laws are meant to give us the context as to why a particular aspect of those mitzvot are given, in that they relate to the reasons for the Flood, and the reasons for the sparing of Noah, and how they are to be applied by the precedent of context, and give us clues as to further drashot - drashot that would not be possible to derive had they (the seven) not appeared in parsha Noach.

 
4- Some gentiles that Paul preached never reached the circumcision (you can deduce this by reading his writtings), so are they lost?

Salvation isn't by becoming a physical Jew. We understand from Ezekiel that there will be sojourners that arrive in the World to Come will eventually be counted among a tribe "wherever they settle" in Israel.
 

 
5- I've been thinking what you said about Talmud, that Adam was born circumcised. I wonder if that scene can be found when female part of Adam is taken from him and he says: This is flesh of my flesh.

I don't know. It certainly is an interesting proposition. Noach was also born circumcised according to tradition.
 

 
6- You said (about Noah): there's no prohibition for drunkenness in Torah and that's absolutly true. But in Talmud (Oral Torah) drunkenness is actually compared with idolatry (that is sin) (M. Tanchum, Noach 13); Did Noah know the Oral Torah? Or did he know the Written Torah of Moses?

I do not have an easy answer for this. My initial thought is that drunkenness is not prohibited in Torah, but certainly discouraged. If the oral Torah suggests that it is a sin, then in the written Torah we will find it, pending the removal of our ignorance of the written and how such is derived.
 

 
7- About Hevel's sacrifice you answered wisely (and of course I agree) that we cannot offer foreign fire. But what i said it comes from Maimonides. He said that Hevel offered the sacrifice by himself (in the last days; maybe a reference to Yom Teruah).

I believe it was Bikkurim.
 

RambaM stated that There wasn't foreign fire, coz there wasn't Torah yet. God accepted the sacrifice, and in the time of Torah He regulated the law about sacrifices with the intention that one day the physical burn offerings will cease, coz: "Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in" (Psalm 40:6) (I actually see that verse out of context, but that's how Maimonides understand it).

Bear in mind that in Messianic days, the sacrifices will continue. And in the World to Come where there is no death, meal offerings will still be performed.
 

  I still have a bunch of questions but i think these are already a lot. Hope to don't waste your time, and be Blessed.
 
Shalom
-XuS-

Facinating questions as always XuS.

May your healing from surgery go well. Shalom,

Israel

[ar...@rice.edu]

Mr. Kenny, I'm glad you liked it. :) Mr. Yochanan, there's not a whole
lot I'd rather do.

- Anna

[ar...@rice.edu]

Dear Mr. Yochanan, I did some research on Gen. 4:26, looking at bot
the numerical values of the names, and the genealogy context of it.
Could you please tell me of your points of view on this verse? Do you
perhaps think it alludes to the Messiah?

Shalom, and
Thank you.

Quoting Yochanan Ben Yisrael <yahushas...@yahoo.com>:

[ar...@rice.edu]

this one went to the wrong email. :)
sorry about that...

[GORDON LAMBERT]

Date Thu, 31 Mar 2011
from lamb...@msn.com
to Jerusale...@googlegroups.com
subject Re: Anna  Gen 4:26 "or any other passage Alluding to the Messiah"







Thank you ANNA.  I was encouraged to read your teaching.  I believe all 22 letters of the Aleph-Bet are like a continuous motion of harmony being orchestrated by the Aleph and Limited
by the Tav.  and all the Letters in between work in harmony with each other and subject themselves to the Author and finisher.  I believe the Aleph-bet is like an Atom their motion and
teaching has a limit: Yes for Humans.  Ha-Shem's parameters that we as humans are limited to operate within his Kingdom. All of the Paleo Hebrew letters (Not the Firey script) but the
paleo script has word pictures that tell thousands of Contextual stories that are multi- layered, that show the Messiah (the Aleph) in thousands of places in All of scripture. :)

> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:26:52 -0500
> From: ar...@rice.edu
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [JC] sapphire - sephirot

> >> and the Earth. If Yeshua is the Beginning, the Reshit ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, then

> >> Tikkun 30 ן¿½ 12

> >> The three middle letters in the first word of the Torah,

> >> ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, ן¿½in the Beginingן¿½, ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, are the aspect of

> >> the source and the energy that brought about the First Redemption.
> >> Exodus 20:2

> >> ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½
> >> ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½,
> >> ן¿½I am YHVH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out
> >> of the house of bondage ן¿½

> >> The initials of the first three letters that represent the upper

> >> three Sefirot, ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, with numerical value of 21 are also conceal the
> >> upper name, ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, that sent Moses to lead the Redemption.
> >> ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ is also the letters of ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, meaning ן¿½headן¿½. It is the

> >> energy of Binah that gave birth to Zeir Anpin that made the
> >> miracles in Egypt which lead to the Exodus and the giving of the
> >> Torah on Mount Sinai.

> >> The words ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½, ן¿½Land of Egyptן¿½ is mentioned in the

> >> Torah 50 times to tell us the connection between leaving Egypt (the
> >> Left Column), and connecting to the light of the Torah, (the Right
> >> Column) and it gives us the connection to the endless energy of
> >> Binah.
> >> http://alsfak.blogspot.com/2011/03/words-land-of-egypt-is-mentioned-in.html
> >>
> >> Shalom,
> >> Anna
> >>
> >> --
> >> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====
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> >> opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about
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> >
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> >
> > Shalom
> > ~ The JC Team
> >
> > Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those
> > of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions
> > held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this
> > discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.
> >
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[XuS Casal]

Israel said:
According to Torah, the Torah is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, and this is absolutely so! Yet this should not stop Israel from teaching it to the world, for Israel has an obligation to bring Torah to the nations, as it is written in Torah that Israel was to offer terms of shalom to the nations around her. This midrashically can refer to the instruction to teach Messiah (who is called sar sharlom) to the world.
From Gen 37:14 We see that when others have shalom, the Word is brought back as it is written "Go and see if shalom is with your brothers and shalom is with the flock and bring back Davar..."
Therefore it is Israel's responsibility to bring Shalom/Messiah/Word/Torah to the world, and yes, give the message of Torah to the gentiles who want to be Jewish. Upon their formal conversion, they take upon themselves the accountability of the Jewish community that accepts them, and in exchange they take upon themselves the responsibility for being the visible "keepers of the oracles of G-d" as Paul puts it as the "advantage" of the Jew - meaning that it is the Jew's privilege (and responsibility) is to teach Torah to the nations and therefore they are to guard it (so as to do it) as an example to them.
 

Hi, Israel, today I've been reading the Talmud concerning the Bnei Noah, and the Noahide law came again to consideration (keep in mind that i've been with this teaching several years). I wanna put the text and my thoughts, and please, if you don't mind help me with this reasoning.
 
This time I focus on tract Sanhedrin 7.
 

'The rabbis taught: Seven commandments were given to the bnei Noah, and they are: Concerning judges, blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, and that they must not eat of the member of a body while the animal is still alive. R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel said: Also of the blood of the same. R. Hidka said: Also castration was forbidden to them. R. Simeon said: Also witchcraft. And R. Jose said: All that is said in: the portion on witchcraft is forbidden to a descendant of Noah. As it reads [Dt 18:10-12]: "There shall not be found among thee any one who causeth his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who useth divination, one who is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a conjurer, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or who inquireth of the dead. For an abomination unto the Lord are all that do these things; and on account of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." And as there is no punishment without preceding warning, hence they were commanded not to do all this. R. Elazar said: Also Kilaim. I mean to say, the descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites); but they are forbidden to gender different kinds of animals and to graft two kinds of trees together. '

 

point 1: We all come from Noah, so we all are Bnei Noah.

point 2: Bnei Noah are not Israelites, as the text says: they can do things forbidden for Israel.

point 3: It seems that the bnei Noah are living within Israel (the text says: 'there shall not be found among you').

 

Whence is all this deduced? Said R. Johanan: From Genesis 2:16. Were the descendants of Noah indeed commanded concerning judges? Is there not a Boraitha: Ten commandments were commanded to Israel in Marah; seven of them are those which were accepted by the descendants of Noah, and three were added to them: viz., Judges, Sabbath, and to honor father and mother. Judges--as it is written [Ex 15:25]: "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance," etc. And concerning Sabbath and the honor of parents it reads [Dt. 5:12, 16]: "As Adonai thy God hath commanded thee." And R. Yehudah said: "As he has commanded you in Marah." Said R. Aha b. Jacob: This means that Israel was commanded to establish courts of justice in every district and city; and the bnei Noah were commanded concerning judges in general only. But is there not a Boraitha: As Israel was commanded to establish judges in every city and district, so also were the bnei Noah commanded? Said Rabha: The Tana of the Boraitha cited above is in accordance with the school of Manasheh, which excluded from the seven commandments judges and blasphemy, and included castration and kilaim. Thus was it taught in the school of Manasheh: Seven commandments were the descendants of Noah commanded: Concerning idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, a member of a living animal, castration, and kilaim. R. Jehudah, however, said: Adam Rishón was commanded as to idolatry only, as it reads [Gen. 2:16]: "And Adonai commanded the man" i.e., Adonai commanded him about the Torah of God (that he should not be exchanged for another). R. Yehudah b. Bathyra said: Also as to blasphemy. And there are some others who say, also concerning judges.

 

 

Point 4: It seems many commands are linked to each other, in the way that from the seven commands of Noah, you can deduce all the Torah, as the text says: 'Manasheh excluded judges and blasphemy and included castration and kilaim', and: 'R.Yehudah said: Adam was commanded about the Torah, that should not be exchanged for another)'. 

Point 5: However, the precept of Shabbat was stated in Mount Sinaí (as the Talmud makes the point), not in Ararat. So the Torah of Moshe is for those that accept the pact in Sinaí. But those that are not Israelites are to follow the pact of the bnei Noah, which have less commands than the pact in Marah, as we read: 'Bnei Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture wool and flax'.

There is a Boraitha in accordance with R. Johanan: Every relationship for which the punishment of the courts of Israel is death, a descendant of Noah is warned of it; but all other relationships, the punishment of which is not death, are permissible to them. So is the decree of R. Mair. The sages, however, say: There are many relationships which in our courts are not punished with death, nevertheless the descendants of Noah are warned of them. If it happens that one of the latter has committed a crime with a daughter of Israel, which is considered adultery in the courts of the Israelites, but not in the courts of the heathens, he is to be tried in the courts of Israel. But if such a crime is considered adultery also in the courts of the heathen, he may be tried in their own courts. However, we do not find a case which would be a crime for Israelites and not for heathens, except that of a betrothed woman (as said above). But why does the Boraitha not count the case of a married woman--by the ceremony of marriage only--which is a crime according to our law, and not according to their law? The Boraitha is in accordance with the school of Manasheh: The death of the descendants of Noah is also choking. Hence it makes no difference in which court he should be tried.

 

point 6: Sanhedrin is able to judge the Bnei Noah, so that should mean again that the so called Bnei Noah are people living among Israel, but are not Israelites.

point 7: the Law of Bnei Noah is softer than the Torah of Israel, as we read: 'is a crime according to our law, and not according to their law'.

 

For what purpose is it written concerning the descendants of Noah, and thereafter repeated in the laws which were given on Mount Sinai? It is as R. Jose b. Hanina said: Every commandment Which was given to the descendants of Noah, and thereafter repeated in the laws given on Mount Sinai, applies to both Israel and the descendants of Noah. And that which was given to the descendants of Noah, and not repeated, applies to Israel only. However, we have only one case [Gen. 32:33] which was commanded before the laws were given on Mount Sinai, which was not repeated, and applies only to Israel, according to R. Jehudah's theory.

 

point 8: this case should be: 'be fruitful and multiply' (Gn 1:28). But the Kosher food is also different in the 3 laws given. To Adam were given only vegetables and fruits (Gn 1:29), to Noah were given also animals, including reptiles, as we will read in the next passage, But to Israel reptiles were not permited.

 

The Boraitha states: R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel, etc. The rabbis taught: It reads [Gen. 9: 4]: "But flesh in which its life is, which is its blood, shall ye not eat." This means any member of the animal, while it is still alive. And Haninah b. Gamaliel said: Also the blood of same. And his reason is that the verse is to be read thus: Flesh in which its life is, ye shall not eat, and blood in which its life is, ye shall not eat. The rabbis, however, maintain that blood is here mentioned to teach that other animals, as reptiles, are allowed to a descendant of Noah.. 
..And lest one say that this forbids also reptiles, the term "but" excludes them [But flesh in which its life is, which is its blood, shall ye not eat."]. How is this to be understood? Said R. Huna: It reads "his blood," which means of animals in which the blood is separated from the flesh, and excludes reptiles, of which the blood is not separated from their flesh.

 

That's the text in Talmud. And not only that. Circumcission doesn't aply to the bnei Noah.

 

Is there not circumcision? [Gn 17]: "And God said unto Abraham: But thou, for thy part, shalt keep my covenant"; and it reads also [Lev. xii. 3]: "And on the eighth day shall the flesh of his foreskin be circumcised." And nevertheless it applies to Israel only, and not to the descendants of Noah?

 

And last passage:  

 

why not explain: "Ye shall therefore observe all my statutes, and all my ordinances," in the same way: "my statutes which I stated long ago"? Nay! "You shall therefore observe my statutes" means which I have now given to you. But in the above-cited verse, which begins, "my statutes ye shall observe," it must be said the statutes which are already stated.

 

point 9: the statutes given to the Bnei Noah are Torah, stated in the time of Noah, but the statutes give in Sinaí were stated in Sinaí, not before.

 

I got 2 ways to understand what it is said:

(1) - the Noahide laws are what the Jerusalem council placed in Acts 15. A way for the gentil-become Jewish slowly.

(2) - the Noahide law must be took out from the Talmud.

 

So, what are your thoughts? PLEASE (T-T)

 

Shalom

-XuS-

 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:41:27 -0600

[YAS2015]

Mazel Tov XuS on your surgery and hospital stay! Praise be to Hashem!

In regards to your point (1) above, I concur 100%.

In regards to Point (2) above, why do the Noahide Law have to be taken
out from the Talmud? The Noahide Laws are in the Torah as they are
embedded into the 613 Commandments.

[XuS Casal]

Thank you very much YAS2015 for your concern, I'm sorry i don't know your name :D
Well, I'm glad you agree with me 100%, but the point is that this group doesn't, so I wanna know how Israel sees this reasoning, because I think he's a wise person, and also the administrator of the site, and also the one who gave me 4 reasons to not believe in the Noahide law (at least in the Noahide law that is preached today in ortodox groups).
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-

 
> Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:31:32 -0400

> Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

> From: yas...@gmail.com
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[YAS2015]

You are very welcome.

 

Well, the Body of Messiah will not agree 100% on everything, but the Torah does leave room to agree to disagree for the sake of unity. I have been in a drashes with a room full of Jewish men and ALL of us had the right opinion even though we disagreed with each other vehemently so don't let disagreements hinder the unity of the Body. Israel is a wise person and I certainly value his opinion as well.

 

There is a religion in the Middle East called Noahide and they call themselves Noahides; however, all human beings are Noahides as well since we all are sons and daughters of Noah. All of us are called to follow the Noahide Laws - whether in the Torah or in the country that we live in. If a follower of Yeshua were to violate the Noahide Laws, then how can we claim to be righteous or children of YHWH? When any of us violate the Noahide Laws, we bring condemnation upon the whole of the Body of Messiah simply because if we cannot live by the Noahide Laws, how can anyone be obedient to the other laws,, rules, regulations, and instructions. Even the UNrighteous will mock the Talmid when the Talmid violates the Noahide Laws and makes all of us look bad to include Yeshua and YHWH.

May Hashem bless and keep you,

Yacov A. Shlomo

[Israel]

Shalom Xus, my responses are in-line below:

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:04 AM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Israel said:
According to Torah, the Torah is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, and this is absolutely so! Yet this should not stop Israel from teaching it to the world, for Israel has an obligation to bring Torah to the nations, as it is written in Torah that Israel was to offer terms of shalom to the nations around her. This midrashically can refer to the instruction to teach Messiah (who is called sar sharlom) to the world.
From Gen 37:14 We see that when others have shalom, the Word is brought back as it is written "Go and see if shalom is with your brothers and shalom is with the flock and bring back Davar..."
Therefore it is Israel's responsibility to bring Shalom/Messiah/Word/Torah to the world, and yes, give the message of Torah to the gentiles who want to be Jewish. Upon their formal conversion, they take upon themselves the accountability of the Jewish community that accepts them, and in exchange they take upon themselves the responsibility for being the visible "keepers of the oracles of G-d" as Paul puts it as the "advantage" of the Jew - meaning that it is the Jew's privilege (and responsibility) is to teach Torah to the nations and therefore they are to guard it (so as to do it) as an example to them.
 

Hi, Israel, today I've been reading the Talmud concerning the Bnei Noah, and the Noahide law came again to consideration (keep in mind that i've been with this teaching several years). I wanna put the text and my thoughts, and please, if you don't mind help me with this reasoning.
 
This time I focus on tract Sanhedrin 7.
 

'The rabbis taught: Seven commandments were given to the bnei Noah, and they are: Concerning judges, blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, and that they must not eat of the member of a body while the animal is still alive. R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel said: Also of the blood of the same. R. Hidka said: Also castration was forbidden to them. R. Simeon said: Also witchcraft. And R. Jose said: All that is said in: the portion on witchcraft is forbidden to a descendant of Noah. As it reads [Dt 18:10-12]: "There shall not be found among thee any one who causeth his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who useth divination, one who is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a conjurer, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or who inquireth of the dead. For an abomination unto the Lord are all that do these things; and on account of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." And as there is no punishment without preceding warning, hence they were commanded not to do all this. R. Elazar said: Also Kilaim. I mean to say, the descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites); but they are forbidden to gender different kinds of animals and to graft two kinds of trees together. '

 

point 1: We all come from Noah, so we all are Bnei Noah.

Correct.

point 2: Bnei Noah are not Israelites, as the text says: they can do things forbidden for Israel.

It is interesting to note that R. Elazar says "there is no punishment without preceding warning" yet "no one is without excuse" per R. Paul. It is understood in Jewish theology that a baby in the womb is taught the entire Torah by an angel, and as soon as the baby is born it is forgotten. If this is true, then certainly this satisfies the requirement of warning prior to birth for even Noah and his sons.  The Torah has always existed. And according to the Targumim, Adam was made to do Torah in the Garden. So then, can it rightly be said that there was no prior warning - especially when Adam knew the Torah? I believe R. Elazar's words "descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites)" refer not to an allowance as in that it's a mitzvah for bnei Noah to mix (remember that G-d never commands disobedience, thus that is why the High Priest can wear wool and linen and is commanded so, but the nations are not commanded so thus showing the contrast), but rather it is an allowance that is understood by later writers as an act of G-d's mercy due to the nations' willful rejection of Torah (remember only Israel accepted the Torah willingly but to all nations it was offered):

Acts 14:
16
"In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways;

- to go their own ways, not the Way of the L-rd which is to no mix wool and flax, and seed.

17
and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."

- What is the witness for? For the truth. And the Torah is truth as it is written by David:

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,And Your Torah is truth.


And the Truth demands a witness to be established. Thus if there is are two witnesses, to a Truth duly attested, there is no lack of warning, and the responsibility for rejection of the Torah is upon anyone who chooses to go "their own way" which Deut 29-30 warns against doing:

Deut 29:
 ¹⁹"It shall be when he hears the words of this curse, that he will boast, saying, 'I have peace though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart in order to destroy the watered land with the dry.'

- here they (those who choose to separate themselves from the elect, from Israel, to be the nations) walk in stubborness

 ²⁰"The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

- the condemnation of such rebels is just (and why they need a savior)

 ²¹"Then the LORD will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.

- notice the man is singled out from all the tribes of Israel.. ie removed from the nation into a separate condition: one who receives the curses of the Torah, one literally then is "under" the Torah - a place of condemnation.

point 3: It seems that the bnei Noah are living within Israel (the text says: 'there shall not be found among you').

correct. as you reasoned above, Israel too is bnei Noah.

 

Whence is all this deduced? Said R. Johanan: From Genesis 2:16. Were the descendants of Noah indeed commanded concerning judges? Is there not a Boraitha: Ten commandments were commanded to Israel in Marah; seven of them are those which were accepted by the descendants of Noah, and three were added to them: viz., Judges, Sabbath, and to honor father and mother. Judges--as it is written [Ex 15:25]: "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance," etc. And concerning Sabbath and the honor of parents it reads [Dt. 5:12, 16]: "As Adonai thy God hath commanded thee." And R. Yehudah said: "As he has commanded you in Marah." Said R. Aha b. Jacob: This means that Israel was commanded to establish courts of justice in every district and city; and the bnei Noah were commanded concerning judges in general only. But is there not a Boraitha: As Israel was commanded to establish judges in every city and district, so also were the bnei Noah commanded? Said Rabha: The Tana of the Boraitha cited above is in accordance with the school of Manasheh, which excluded from the seven commandments judges and blasphemy, and included castration and kilaim. Thus was it taught in the school of Manasheh: Seven commandments were the descendants of Noah commanded: Concerning idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, a member of a living animal, castration, and kilaim. R. Jehudah, however, said: Adam Rishón was commanded as to idolatry only, as it reads [Gen. 2:16]: "And Adonai commanded the man" i.e., Adonai commanded him about the Torah of God (that he should not be exchanged for another). R. Yehudah b. Bathyra said: Also as to blasphemy. And there are some others who say, also concerning judges.

 

 

Point 4: It seems many commands are linked to each other, in the way that from the seven commands of Noah, you can deduce all the Torah, as the text says: 'Manasheh excluded judges and blasphemy and included castration and kilaim', and: 'R.Yehudah said: Adam was commanded about the Torah, that should not be exchanged for another)'. 

Precisely. The entire Torah is deduced from even the one: prohibition of idolatry. Obviously how can G-d permit bnei noah to engage in idolatry? He doesn't. He "turns them over to the stubbornness of their own hearts." a condition in which He did with Israel according to:

Psalm 81:
    ¹²"So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart,
         To walk in their own devices.

It is rebellion that separates us from G-d, from Israel, and thus opens the door for judgment and the curse - a curse that is rightly upon all mankind since "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of G-d" - the Glory of G-d which is Messiah Yeshua. How can such a charge be laid? Because all mankind in included in the covenant made "there" in:

 Deut 29:

 ¹⁴"Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath,

 ¹⁵but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God and with those who are not with us here today.

Point 5: However, the precept of Shabbat was stated in Mount Sinaí (as the Talmud makes the point), not in Ararat. So the Torah of Moshe is for those that accept the pact in Sinaí. But those that are not Israelites are to follow the pact of the bnei Noah, which have less commands than the pact in Marah, as we read: 'Bnei Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture wool and flax'.

The Sun, Moon, and stars were created for "moedim." So when did the moedim exist - even to Adam? In the Beginning. And Sabbath is the first of the moedim - appointed times. The laws given to Noah are given to Noah for the same reason the Sabbath is given to Moshe: to give us the context wherein we understand the law. It is not a chronological unfolding of the revelation of Torah to mankind (although it can be argued both and, for as one increases obedience, the more they learn Torah), but rather the entire Torah is meant to be taken as a whole, with one part explaining another. That is why one must look to Leviticus for an understanding of what clean and unclean animals are - to know what animals Noah brought on the ark. Same thing with bikkurim, firstfruits, which Abel brought - not explained until later in Torah. Not even Shabbat in which G-d himself rested, is explained until later in Torah. Are we to assume then such revelation did not exist or was not available? We can't if we hold to a belief in the Torah's continuity integrity...and wholeness. The first mention of these mitzvot are in a narrative which gives us the context for the command. The entire Torah is contextual, and is meant to be taken as a whole with one part explaining another. We learn this from the creation account, where it is stated that G-d made man and woman, and then repeats the creation of account of man and woman in more detail a few petuchah later: to teach us that one part of Torah is explained by another part of Torah. And if we have G-d creating the sun, moon, and stars for moedim, and teaches Adam Torah in the Garden, and he's to serve Torah, then we learn from the rest of Torah what that was all about: everything. Including Shabbat. Including prohibition of certain mixtures. Nothing lacking. The warning was fully given, yet it is in our rebellion and stubbornness that G-d permits the nations to fall further (so their judgment is full, and is also an act of mercy to provide an opportunity of repentance as that judgment tarries), and as a result the intimate knowledge of Torah is lost as it is not exercised.

There is a Boraitha in accordance with R. Johanan: Every relationship for which the punishment of the courts of Israel is death, a descendant of Noah is warned of it; but all other relationships, the punishment of which is not death, are permissible to them. So is the decree of R. Mair. The sages, however, say: There are many relationships which in our courts are not punished with death, nevertheless the descendants of Noah are warned of them. If it happens that one of the latter has committed a crime with a daughter of Israel, which is considered adultery in the courts of the Israelites, but not in the courts of the heathens, he is to be tried in the courts of Israel. But if such a crime is considered adultery also in the courts of the heathen, he may be tried in their own courts. However, we do not find a case which would be a crime for Israelites and not for heathens, except that of a betrothed woman (as said above). But why does the Boraitha not count the case of a married woman--by the ceremony of marriage only--which is a crime according to our law, and not according to their law? The Boraitha is in accordance with the school of Manasheh: The death of the descendants of Noah is also choking. Hence it makes no difference in which court he should be tried.

 

point 6: Sanhedrin is able to judge the Bnei Noah, so that should mean again that the so called Bnei Noah are people living among Israel, but are not Israelites.

Correct. There are those among us who, for whatever reason, continue to choose to separate themselves from us.

point 7: the Law of Bnei Noah is softer than the Torah of Israel, as we read: 'is a crime according to our law, and not according to their law'.

Yet there is only one G-d, one judge, and one Torah for all. "their law" may permit idolatry, yet it doesn't make it Torah. G-d does not command a separate Torah for gentiles contrary to Israel. They are allowed disobedience, but only for a time (until they die), but not commanded disobedience. There is only one Torah, and the gentiles are offered to walk in it, yet they continue to refuse walking in it by the stubbornness of their hearts, which is itself idolatry and a violation of "their" first prohibition. The "softer than the Torah of Israel" understanding is really an outside observation, but not the root understanding. The root of the understanding is that what is "soft" is not the law, but rather the mercy of G-d in that they are not judged yet for their continued disobedience. This is why all mankind needs a savior. The longer we reject Messiah, the closer to our just judgment we come.

The same dichotomy can be seen in how Israel sinned many times in the desert, yet G-d's mercy was "soft" to them until a certain point. Yet when Moses, the man of G-d, the leader of Israel, the one who stands out with the greatest weight when it comes to a chillul HaShem for any disobedience, he merely strikes the rock, and loses in an instant the right to enter the Land, no mercy extended! The more you carry the Name of G-d upon you, the more swift G-d's attribute of justice is exercised, and less G-d's mercy is extended. Just like Moses is to Israel, is Israel to the nations. All are obligated to follow the King's one law for all, yet the King honors his Name to such an extent that he shows greater mercy to those further removed from his name, but ultimately justice will have its say for all people. Whether or not you have an advocate is dependent upon your relationship with Messiah Yeshua.
 

 

For what purpose is it written concerning the descendants of Noah, and thereafter repeated in the laws which were given on Mount Sinai? It is as R. Jose b. Hanina said: Every commandment Which was given to the descendants of Noah, and thereafter repeated in the laws given on Mount Sinai, applies to both Israel and the descendants of Noah. And that which was given to the descendants of Noah, and not repeated, applies to Israel only. However, we have only one case [Gen. 32:33] which was commanded before the laws were given on Mount Sinai, which was not repeated, and applies only to Israel, according to R. Jehudah's theory.

 

point 8: this case should be: 'be fruitful and multiply' (Gn 1:28). But the Kosher food is also different in the 3 laws given. To Adam were given only vegetables and fruits (Gn 1:29), to Noah were given also animals, including reptiles, as we will read in the next passage, But to Israel reptiles were not permited.

Noah was permitted animals due to sin. There will not be death in the World to Come, so the eating of meat will cease, as it was in the Garden.

Reptiles are also prohibited Noah, but let us examine what the Talmud says:

 

The Boraitha states: R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel, etc. The rabbis taught: It reads [Gen. 9: 4]: "But flesh in which its life is, which is its blood, shall ye not eat." This means any member of the animal, while it is still alive. And Haninah b. Gamaliel said: Also the blood of same. And his reason is that the verse is to be read thus: Flesh in which its life is, ye shall not eat, and blood in which its life is, ye shall not eat. The rabbis, however, maintain that blood is here mentioned to teach that other animals, as reptiles, are allowed to a descendant of Noah.. 
..And lest one say that this forbids also reptiles, the term "but" excludes them [But flesh in which its life is, which is its blood, shall ye not eat."]. How is this to be understood? Said R. Huna: It reads "his blood," which means of animals in which the blood is separated from the flesh, and excludes reptiles, of which the blood is not separated from their flesh.

 

That's the text in Talmud.

The Torah says:

Genesis 9:3
 כל-רמש אשר הוא-חי לכם יהיה לאכלה כירק עשב נתתי לכם את-כל

All moving things which have life, to you it will be for food, as I gave the green herb I give to you all.

The question I have, why does the Torah say אשר הוא-חי ? That which has life? Are we to eat living things? As the next verse explains:

Genesis 9:4
 אך-בשר בנפשו דמו לא תאכלו

Only flesh with soul his blood you shall not eat.

We are not to eat living things.  Yet why the redundancy? Why not just say in verse 3 "All moving things with no soul is to you for food."  Why the addition of "which has life" is then  contrasted with  "with soul" "his blood you shall not eat". Life, and then soul?

I believe the context (in which Noah then prepares kosher sacrifices) gives us the understanding of what HaShem means here when it talks of "all that has life" - is that which is permitted for kosher sacrifice, ie "of the clean animals:"

Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.

The context then of 9:4 is 8:20, G-d's response to Noah's sacrifice - a burnt sacrifice whose details are further explained in Torah (Noah is a firstborn, and thus is a priest). And G-d's response is to smell the sweet aroma, and a blessing. We find later in Torah that that "which has life" in the blood makes an atonement:

Leviticus 17:11
 כי נפש הבשר בדם הוא ואני נתתיו לכם על-המזבח לכפר על-נפשתיכם כי-הדם הוא בנפש יכפר:


11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life.

Look at the parallel to Gen 9:4.

Now consider the argument: According to Torah, can the blood of a reptile make atonement by reason of (its) soul? No. Therefore, Gen 9:4 is not even addressing reptiles but only animals that Torah later understands can make atonement, ie animals fit for sacrifice. It isn't until Lev 11 that G-d explains further that the allowance "yours for food" extends to all clean animals (not just those fit for sacrifice). So then why the Gen 9:3-4 declaration? To teach us that our eating is equated to the partaking of a sacrifice (ie referring to an allusion to Messiah) because of our sin (which led to the Flood). (which is why also Adam and Eve could only eat food with "seed" in it, ie referring to the allusion of Messiah). G-d enjoins upon us the responsibility to make a sacrifice as a "peace offering" (the context of Lev 17), and by allusion, the sacrifice of Messiah who is called the "Prince of Peace."

From a logical perspective, had Noah eaten of any unclean animal, of which only had one mate, it would have been the extinction of the kind.

And not only that. Circumcission doesn't aply to the bnei Noah.

Yet in the Midrashim, Adam is created circumcised, and Noah is born circumcised. But let us examine:

 

Is there not circumcision? [Gn 17]: "And God said unto Abraham: But thou, for thy part, shalt keep my covenant"; and it reads also [Lev. xii. 3]: "And on the eighth day shall the flesh of his foreskin be circumcised." And nevertheless it applies to Israel only, and not to the descendants of Noah?

 

Is Abraham not a bnei Noah? If a bnei Noah is not obligated to circumcision when making teshuvah, when forsaking idolatry, when following HaShem in the one true Way, then why do our battai din circumcise every convert from the nations?
 

And last passage:  

 

why not explain: "Ye shall therefore observe all my statutes, and all my ordinances," in the same way: "my statutes which I stated long ago"? Nay! "You shall therefore observe my statutes" means which I have now given to you. But in the above-cited verse, which begins, "my statutes ye shall observe," it must be said the statutes which are already stated.

 

point 9: the statutes given to the Bnei Noah are Torah, stated in the time of Noah, but the statutes give in Sinaí were stated in Sinaí, not before.

It was given in time and place to teach us context: namely that redemption by HaShem leads to submission to His Torah. They entire Torah (just as salvation is) was offered to all nations, only Israel (existing at later time) accepted it. The statutes given to Israel are given to separate Israel from the nations, ie that the nations are given a choice to separate from Israel (and thus not partake in her blessing of the Land, ie the World to Come / Eternal Life).

 

I got 2 ways to understand what it is said:

(1) - the Noahide laws are what the Jerusalem council placed in Acts 15. A way for the gentil-become Jewish slowly.

To some extent. Murder isn't found in the list, and this is an obvious prohibition in Torah given to Noah. So the list serves a different purpose and is drawn from a different source other than the Noahide laws: namely the list in Acts is derived from the entirety of Torah concerning fleeing idolatry and its immediate practices (so that the new believer can actually participate in the synagogue service and learn Torah, without being kicked out by the community that has no tolerance according to Torah for idol worshippers). In short, it's Abram's first list of mitzvot when living in Ur and called to the Land (as our Sages say he was able to derive up to 20+ chapters of Tractate Avodah Zarah). A new believer from the nations is called out from the nations, just like Abram was, and over a period of time they learn more and more Torah and eventually are held accountable to circumcision and entering the full public responsibility of Torah (ie becoming a recognized Jew according to our law) as they learn more and draw closer to HaShem.
 

(2) - the Noahide law must be took out from the Talmud.

This option can't be correct either, because we do know that in context, Noah was given certain commands, and that that narrative provides the foundation for those mitzvot later explained in Torah.So yes there are "Noahide laws" but as you rightly discerned above, the entirety of Torah can be derived from them.

Excellent questions XuS. As always, I love studying them.

Shalom,

Israel

[GORDON LAMBERT]

GL says:
 
Regarding the Word Torah,  I found the word much earlier, before "Jacob".  It's found in the first book of the five.  It's not noticable in the greek translation.
It's in Hebrew.  It's Plural for Torah.  Torot.  So Torah was for all mankind, for his house (Beit).
 
Selah Achi
 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:54:56 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Bill Meyer]

And when all is said and done

 15 So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague. 16 And it shall be that all who are left from all the nations which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. * 17 And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain. 18 And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the nations who do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. * 19 This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. * 20 In that day "SET-APART TO יהוה" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the slaughter-place. 21 And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who slaughter shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.

All nations will observe Sukkot as well. The Noachide commands is for the proselyte who do not know Torah yet. The proselyte must do a minimum to be allowed into the assembly / synagogue in order to learn Torah. The Noachide Commands is a stepping stone - not the end goal that separates "us" from "them" as some would like to have it. You allow someone in to accept teaching amongst the rest when they do the minimum - the Noachide Commandments. 

[avi5207]

FYI: In case you've never heard this before you can find the word Torah Tav-Resh-Heh in Bereshit (Genesis). Start by counting fifty letters. The fiftieth letter from the beginning is a Tav, count another 50 and you find a Resh, another 50 you find a Heh. I've checked this out and found it to be true. Supposedly it's this way all through Bereshit. I am told there are similar words hidden in the other books of the Torah.

Shalom,

Avi

[Mickey]

Have a question about conversion. My husband attended and became had his conversion but I am so lost in this concept. Why does a gentile have a conversion to become a messianic Jew ? I believe the exact same things but have no desire to become Jewish. I celebrate shabbot go to temple but as a gentile. Help me understand can a person born gentile really ever become Jewish ? And why? We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new. We celebrated High Holy days with other Jews for Jesus and attend the same temples. But I still even though I do all the traditions asked consider becoming Jewish. Main because I don't see how a gentile becomes Jewish and a Jew that believes in Jesus at that. I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side. Please please help me understand. 

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

[Bryce Henderson]

Are you sure? I just counted and I didn't see it. Exactly which Tav are you talking about?

[GORDON LAMBERT]

GL ask's

Isn't the Word for Torot in it's plural form mean the Teachings and Instructions ANYWHERE in Scripture that YHWH speaks instruction?  In the renewed Covenant Of MA'ASEI (Acts) Chapter 15.  I see the Confirmation for what you are saying.  Thank you.  Just one more question:  In the story in Bereshith where Qayin and Hebel , and it is understood that when they were
offering up sacrifices during a Set apart day, that this was a commandment for all Elohim's created.  But If it wasn't and It was just an Adamic Commandment, Then why is it carried forward
into the Levitical usage?  The same argument that is given that Noah didn't have the same instructions as Jacob, is like saying Qayin and Hebel didn't have the same instructions for Sacrificial usage that all  the obedient enjoyed.  I think all Torot of Yah's instructions MUST be considered for anyone to be part of his Citizenship.  His Government Will one day be on his
shoulder's and I am learning at Moses seat now, so I won't be embarrassed when I get there. 

Thank you all for your uplifting Conformation to my journey.

shalam shalom.  all.

---

Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:45:58 +0200

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

From: bill.me...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

And when all is said and done

 15 So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague. 16 And it shall be that all who are left from all the nations which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. * 17 And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain. 18 And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the nations who do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. * 19 This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. * 20 In that day "SET-APART TO יהוה" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the slaughter-place. 21 And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who slaughter shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.

All nations will observe Sukkot as well. The Noachide commands is for the proselyte who do not know Torah yet. The proselyte must do a minimum to be allowed into the assembly / synagogue in order to learn Torah. The Noachide Commands is a stepping stone - not the end goal that separates "us" from "them" as some would like to have it. You allow someone in to accept teaching amongst the rest when they do the minimum - the Noachide Commandments. 

[avi5207]

Ephesians 2 explains that by faith in Yeshua you become part of the commonwealth of Israel. The only true conversion is at the moment you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. From this point on you are in the process of being purged of your old carnal nature (quickened). You should begin to learn more about what is truly important to YHVH and that is love. Now love is not what most people think it is. True godly love is much more. Godly love is selfless, sacrificial in its nature. This is why we are to submit ourselves to one another, esteem others to be greater than ourselves etc.,. This sign of spiritual maturity insures a bountiful crop of good fruit will be harvested in you. The written Torah is really just an outline of what the Spirit requires. Our hearts must be circumcised by the hand of God and that comes only through faith in His Word made flesh... Yeshua! (see Jer. 31:31-34, Ezek. 36,) You make true and lasting conversion through simple faith. Faith that God's Word is true, faith that God loves you and sent His only begotten Son Yeshua to purchase your salvation with His pure precious blood.

Shalom,

Avi



On 5/18/2011 11:35 PM, Mickey wrote:

Have a question about conversion. My husband attended and became had his conversion but I am so lost in this concept. Why does a gentile have a conversion to become a messianic Jew ? I believe the exact same things but have no desire to become Jewish. I celebrate shabbot go to temple but as a gentile. Help me understand can a person born gentile really ever become Jewish ? And why? We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new. We celebrated High Holy days with other Jews for Jesus and attend the same temples. But I still even though I do all the traditions asked consider becoming Jewish. Main because I don't see how a gentile becomes Jewish and a Jew that believes in Jesus at that. I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side. Please please help me understand.�

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

On May 18, 2011, at 3:29 PM, GORDON LAMBERT <lamb...@msn.com> wrote:

GL says:
�
Regarding the Word Torah,� I found the word�much earlier, before�"Jacob".� It's found in�the first book of the five.� It's not noticable in the�greek translation.
It's in Hebrew.� It's Plural for Torah.� Torot.��So Torah was for�all mankind,�for his house (Beit).
�
Selah Achi
�

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:54:56 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Mosh� [Noachide Not Cleanness]

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Shalom Xus, my responses are in-line below:

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:04 AM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Israel said:
According to Torah, the Torah is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, and this is absolutely so! Yet this should not stop Israel from teaching it to the world, for Israel has an obligation to bring Torah to the nations, as it is written in Torah that Israel was to offer terms of shalom to the nations around her. This midrashically can refer to the instruction to teach Messiah (who is called sar sharlom) to the world.
From Gen 37:14 We see that when others have shalom, the Word is brought back as it is written "Go and see if shalom is with your brothers and shalom is with the flock and bring back Davar..."
Therefore it is Israel's responsibility to bring Shalom/Messiah/Word/Torah to the world, and yes, give the message of Torah to the gentiles who want to be Jewish. Upon their formal conversion, they take upon themselves the accountability of the Jewish community that accepts them, and in exchange they take upon themselves the responsibility for being the visible "keepers of the oracles of G-d" as Paul puts it as the "advantage" of the Jew - meaning that it is the Jew's privilege (and responsibility) is to teach Torah to the nations and therefore they are to guard it (so as to do it) as an example to them.

�

Hi, Israel, today I've been reading the Talmud concerning the Bnei Noah, and the Noahide law came again to consideration (keep in mind that i've been with this teaching several years). I wanna put the text and my thoughts, and please, if you don't mind help me with this reasoning.

�

This time I focus on tract Sanhedrin 7.

�

'The rabbis taught: Seven commandments were given to the�bnei Noah, and they are: Concerning judges, blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, and that they must not eat of the member of a body while the animal is still alive. R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel said: Also of the blood of the same. R. Hidka said: Also castration was forbidden to them. R. Simeon said: Also witchcraft. And R. Jose said: All that is said in: the portion on witchcraft is forbidden to a descendant of Noah. As it reads [Dt 18:10-12]: "There shall not be found among thee any one who causeth his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who useth divination, one who is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a conjurer, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or who inquireth of the dead. For an abomination unto the Lord are all that do these things; and on account of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." And as there is no punishment without preceding warning, hence they were commanded not to do all this. R. Elazar said: Also Kilaim. I mean to say, the descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites); but they are forbidden to gender different kinds of animals and to graft two kinds of trees together. '

�

point 1: We all come from Noah, so we all are Bnei Noah.

Correct.

point 2: Bnei Noah are not Israelites, as the text says: they can do things forbidden for Israel.

It is interesting to note that R. Elazar says "there is no punishment without preceding warning" yet "no one is without excuse" per R. Paul. It is understood in Jewish theology that a baby in the womb is taught the entire Torah by an angel, and as soon as the baby is born it is forgotten. If this is true, then certainly this satisfies the requirement of warning prior to birth for even Noah and his sons.� The Torah has always existed. And according to the Targumim, Adam was made to do Torah in the Garden. So then, can it rightly be said that there was no prior warning - especially when Adam knew the Torah? I believe R. Elazar's words "descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites)" refer not to an allowance as in that it's a mitzvah for bnei Noah to mix (remember that G-d never commands disobedience, thus that is why the High Priest can wear wool and linen and is commanded so, but the nations are not commanded so thus showing the contrast), but rather it is an allowance that is understood by later writers as an act of G-d's mercy due to the nations' willful rejection of Torah (remember only Israel accepted the Torah willingly but to all nations it was offered):

Acts 14:
16
"In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways;

- to go their own ways, not the Way of the L-rd which is to no mix wool and flax, and seed.

17
and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."

- What is the witness for? For the truth. And the Torah is truth as it is written by David:

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,And Your Torah is truth.


And the Truth demands a witness to be established. Thus if there is are two witnesses, to a Truth duly attested, there is no lack of warning, and the responsibility for rejection of the Torah is upon anyone who chooses to go "their own way" which Deut 29-30 warns against doing:

Deut 29:

�¹⁹"It shall be when he hears the words of this curse, that he will boast, saying, 'I have peace though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart in order to destroy the watered land with the dry.'

- here they (those who choose to separate themselves from the elect, from Israel, to be the nations) walk in stubborness

�²⁰"The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

- the condemnation of such rebels is just (and why they need a savior)

�²¹"Then the LORD will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.

- notice the man is singled out from all the tribes of Israel.. ie removed from the nation into a separate condition: one who receives the curses of the Torah, one literally then is "under" the Torah - a place of condemnation.

point 3: It seems that the bnei Noah are living within Israel (the text says: 'there shall not be found among you').

correct. as you reasoned above, Israel too is bnei Noah.

�

Whence is all this deduced? Said R. Johanan: From Genesis 2:16. Were the descendants of Noah indeed commanded concerning judges? Is there not a Boraitha: Ten commandments were commanded to Israel in Marah; seven of them are those which were accepted by the descendants of Noah, and three were added to them: viz., Judges, Sabbath, and to honor father and mother. Judges--as it is written [Ex 15:25]: "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance," etc. And concerning Sabbath and the honor of parents it reads [Dt.�5:12, 16]: "As�Adonai thy God hath commanded thee." And R. Yehudah said: "As he has commanded you in Marah." Said R. Aha b. Jacob: This means that Israel was commanded to establish courts of justice in every district and city; and the�bnei Noah were commanded concerning judges in general only. But is there not a Boraitha: As Israel was commanded to establish judges in every city and district, so also were the�bnei Noah commanded? Said Rabha: The Tana of the Boraitha cited above is in accordance with the school of Manasheh, which excluded from the seven commandments judges and blasphemy, and included castration and kilaim. Thus was it taught in the school of Manasheh: Seven commandments were the descendants of Noah commanded: Concerning idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, a member of a living animal, castration, and kilaim. R. Jehudah, however, said: Adam Rish�n was commanded as to idolatry only, as it reads [Gen. 2:16]: "And�Adonai commanded the man" i.e.,�Adonai commanded him about the Torah of God (that he should not be exchanged for another). R. Yehudah b. Bathyra said: Also as to blasphemy. And there are some others who say, also concerning judges.

�

�

Point 4: It seems many commands are linked to each other, in the way that from the seven commands of Noah, you can deduce all the Torah, as the text says: 'Manasheh excluded judges and blasphemy and included castration and kilaim', and: 'R.Yehudah said: Adam was commanded�about the Torah, that should not be exchanged for another)'.�

Precisely. The entire Torah is deduced from even the one: prohibition of idolatry. Obviously how can G-d permit bnei noah to engage in idolatry? He doesn't. He "turns them over to the stubbornness of their own hearts." a condition in which He did with Israel according to:

Psalm 81:

��� ¹²"So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart,
���������To walk in their own devices.

It is rebellion that separates us from G-d, from Israel, and thus opens the door for judgment and the curse - a curse that is rightly upon all mankind since "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of G-d" - the Glory of G-d which is Messiah Yeshua. How can such a charge be laid? Because all mankind in included in the covenant made "there" in:

�Deut 29:

�¹⁴"Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath,
�¹⁵but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God and with those who are not with us here today.

Point 5: However, the precept of Shabbat was stated in Mount Sina� (as the Talmud makes the point), not in Ararat. So the Torah of Moshe�is for those that accept the pact in Sina�. But those that are not Israelites are to follow the pact of the bnei Noah, which have less commands than the pact in Marah, as we read: 'Bnei Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture wool and flax'.

The Sun, Moon, and stars were created for "moedim." So when did the moedim exist - even to Adam? In the Beginning. And Sabbath is the first of the moedim - appointed times. The laws given to Noah are given to Noah for the same reason the Sabbath is given to Moshe: to give us the context wherein we understand the law. It is not a chronological unfolding of the revelation of Torah to mankind (although it can be argued both and, for as one increases obedience, the more they learn Torah), but rather the entire Torah is meant to be taken as a whole, with one part explaining another. That is why one must look to Leviticus for an understanding of what clean and unclean animals are - to know what animals Noah brought on the ark. Same thing with bikkurim, firstfruits, which Abel brought - not explained until later in Torah. Not even Shabbat in which G-d himself rested, is explained until later in Torah. Are we to assume then such revelation did not exist or was not available? We can't if we hold to a belief in the Torah's continuity integrity...and wholeness. The first mention of these mitzvot are in a narrative which gives us the context for the command. The entire Torah is contextual, and is meant to be taken as a whole with one part explaining another. We learn this from the creation account, where it is stated that G-d made man and woman, and then repeats the creation of account of man and woman in more detail a few petuchah later: to teach us that one part of Torah is explained by another part of Torah. And if we have G-d creating the sun, moon, and stars for moedim, and teaches Adam Torah in the Garden, and he's to serve Torah, then we learn from the rest of Torah what that was all about: everything. Including Shabbat. Including prohibition of

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[avi5207]

Yes Bryce I've done this using a Hebrew Torah and it works for me. I was skeptical at first but when I checked it out it came out just as I'd heard. I don't have a Hebrew version downloaded on my PC but I'll endeavor to do so to the end I might show how this works. Start with the very first Hebrew letter and count. When you get to fifty you should find a Tav, then a resh and then a heh. It's been awhile since I checked this out but I'm certain this works.

Shalom,

Avi

[Bryce Henderson]

You can see the beginning of Genesis here:

http://www.bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=1&chapter=1&verse=1&portion=1

I've counted many times and I don't find what you say I should find. Perhaps I'm counting wrong. Can you take a look?

[XuS Casal]

'We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new'.
 
- We Jews don't believe in Jesus (a Christian human-god  of the roman empire that made away with the Torah).
-We believe in Yeshua (A Jewish Rabbi who came to teach the Torah; which name means Salvation, and makes sense in Matthew book context (shall put his name: Yeshua) ).
-We Jews Don't believe in 'old testament' thing.
-We believe the Torah is eternal and perfect (and so, there's no any other Torah, and we won't have any other Torah. And the same way, the TANAK is words of life comming from the Torah, so NOP. They are not old).

 'I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side'.
 
-What I'm gonna tell you needs a bit of understanding of Jewish culture, so please don't missunderstand me. The word gentiles (goyim) means: of the nations (people that don't belong to God's nation). Because God has only one nation: ISRAEL. The Law and Statutes of the nation of Israel and her King (the Messiah) is the Torah of Moshe (as we read: 'when he will rule.. ..he shall make a copy of THIS Torah'). So, if you Love God, and you wanna be of His people, You'll Obey Torah (not only the parts that you prefer). So, by definition, if you love God, one day your goal is stop being of a foreign nation (ben Nekar; i.e pagan), and be: Of The people (haAm); meaning: Jew.

What really counts is the citizenship of Israel in God's eyes. And when you are part of Israel, you have the same Torah with Israel, if you obey all the Torah (including the process of conversion), then you are Jew; not gentile.
A gentile is someone who doesn't obey Torah, so by that definition, they are not able to TEACH Torah to the rest of the world. A teacher needs to remove the beam of his eye.

A gentile during the process of conversion and learning, is a proselyte (ger), And he lives among Israel (as you said: 'we go to the same temple'; i guess that means a Jew Synagogue). As we have learn from the Noahide law study, people in process of conversion are allowed to 'skip' (I'm sorry, that's not the correct word, but i cannot find a better one) some commands by God's mercy. UNTIL they learn, as we read in acts: 'because Moshe is being read every Shabbat in the Synagogues'. With which purpose? with the purpose that people who listen may learn, right?
 
Again, I ask you to consider these words with love, I have no intention to make any discrimination, and if it sounds like that, be sure that's not what i meant.  
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-

---

Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:35:57 -0700
From: micke...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

CC: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[YAS2015]

Acts of the Talmidim Chapter 15 (The Jerusalem Beit Din) requires conversion to Judaism. If the person chooses not to c as thonvert thent  hat person is NOT apart of the Commonwealth of Israel or a foreignor among us as the Torah puts it. In order to be a son or daughter of Avraham, the Goy must conduct their lives just like Avraham. It took 20 years for Avraham to go through circumcision. Therefore, the goal of Torah is to convert to Judaism. One Torah for all time and for all people.

 

Christianity is NOT the One True Faith given once for all time as the Ketuvim Netzarim states is because Christianity was birthed in 98c.e. by Bishop Ignatious. Messiah Yeshua came to be the Messiah of Judaism not of any other group of people or religion.

[Mickey]

It seems you are spilting hairs over small things. I love my savior, my messiah, my Jesus. He means to me no less because of what i call him. Son of God ( yes I spelled it out I am also confused why so many don't instead using G-D ) the lamb.. My fav. Prince of Peace. So is calling my Savior Jesus that offensive to you? Do you think it is to Him when He know exactly who and what I am talking about and the depths of my love. 

I never said Christianity was the one true faith but do I think Yeshua died for only the Jewish or those who covert to being Jewish. No he died for me too. 

Maybe you can explain the difference of the Torah and Old Testament ( no I don't believe it is old either) or the Tanak and the new.  

I sense although you don't know me you would not want to tolerate sitting next to me in temple   I am truly trying to learn here 

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

[XuS Casal]

It seems you are spilting hairs over small things. I love my savior, my messiah, my Jesus. He means to me no less because of what i call him. 
 

No, this is not about how you call him; is about what the name represents. Jesus represents 1900 years of Roman Christianity. We are not Christians, if we say Jesus, people gonna believe we are Christians, when our "doctrines" (if we can call it like that) are very different. And as I said: Jesus was a Greek transliteration of the original Aramaic name: Yeshua which means: Salvation.

 

Son of God ( yes I spelled it out I am also confused why so many don't instead using G-D )

 

We respect and fear the Name of God, and many of us beware to refer Him with respect. Some of us just do not pronounce the Sacred Name (it would be in vain). Is not actually confusing. For some orthodox of this group, what is very confusing, is to refer God (any name or atribute of Him) with no respect (i mean, as if we mention any other person). That's the reason they mark the difference from God and the rest of Creation, by referring Him with respect (G-d; instead of God). I think this is more abour tolerance.

 

I never said Christianity was the one true faith but do I think Yeshua died for only the Jewish or those who covert to being Jewish. No he died for me too. 

 

Yeshua died for all minkind, but only His people get the benefit of this. "You shall call his name Yeshua: for he shall save his people from their sins (Mt 1:21).
Because obviously the sinners or Hitler won't inherit the upcoming World. Not all that say: my Lord my Lord, but only those that obey his commands (that's the Torah). Whoever obey all of his commands (including the process of conversion) by definition becomes Jew; no longer gentile.

Maybe you can explain the difference of the Torah and Old Testament ( no I don't believe it is old either) or the Tanak and the new.

 

Torah is the statutes of God, the laws of His kingdom, that He pronounced, wrote and gave to Moses in Mount Sinaí, in front of more than three million witnesses. the Torah of Moses, is what we call: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

the Tanak is an acronym for: Torah, Neviim (Prophets) & Ketuvim (Writings).

TANAK is the recopilation of the books of the Prophets, the historical and poetical writings and the Torah. Yeshua used to call it: the Torah and the Prophets, or the Torah the Prophets and the Psalms. 

I wonder why you didn't know this.   

I sense although you don't know me you would not want to tolerate sitting next to me in temple   I am truly trying to learn here 

 

You sense wrong, everyone is welcome in the Synagogue.

Shalom

 

-XuS-

[avi5207]

My apologies to all. I can't make it come out either. I know I checked this out myself a few years back and I remember that this worked. I guess I just imagined all this... Sorry please forgive me.

Shalom,

Avi

[Bryce Henderson]

I'm a Christian. I have no issues with calling Him "Jesus", as that is the sweet, sweet Name I first heard.

On 2011-05-19, at 12:37 PM, XuS Casal wrote:

It seems you are spilting hairs over small things. I love my savior, my messiah, my Jesus. He means to me no less because of what i call him. 
 
No, this is not about how you call him; is about what the name represents. Jesus represents 1900 years of Roman Christianity. We are not Christians, if we say Jesus, people gonna believe we are Christians, when our "doctrines" (if we can call it like that) are very different. And as I said: Jesus was a Greek transliteration of the original Aramaic name: Yeshua which means: Salvation.
 

Son of God ( yes I spelled it out I am also confused why so many don't instead using G-D )

 

We respect and fear the Name of God, and many of us beware to refer Him with respect. Some of us just do not pronounce the Sacred Name (it would be in vain). Is not actually confusing. For some orthodox of this group, what is very confusing, is to refer God (any name or atribute of Him) with no respect (i mean, as if we mention any other person). That's the reason they mark the difference from God and the rest of Creation, by referring Him with respect (G-d; instead of God). I think this is more abour tolerance.

 

I never said Christianity was the one true faith but do I think Yeshua died for only the Jewish or those who covert to being Jewish. No he died for me too. 

 

Yeshua died for all minkind, but only His people get the benefit of this. "You shall call his name Yeshua: for he shall save his peoplefrom their sins (Mt 1:21).

 

Whence is all this deduced? Said R. Johanan: From Genesis 2:16. Were the descendants of Noah indeed commanded concerning judges? Is there not a Boraitha: Ten commandmentswere commanded to Israel in Marah; seven of them are those which were accepted by the descendants of Noah, and three were added to them: viz., Judges, Sabbath, and to honor father and mother. Judges--as it is written [Ex 15:25]: "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance," etc. And concerning Sabbath and the honor of parents it reads [Dt. 5:12, 16]: "As Adonai thy God hath commanded thee." And R. Yehudah said: "As he has commanded you in Marah." Said R. Aha b. Jacob: This means that Israel was commanded to establish courts of justice in every district and city; and the bnei Noah were commanded concerning judges in general only. But is there not a Boraitha: As Israel was commanded to establish judges in every city and district, so also were the bnei Noah commanded? Said Rabha: The Tana of the Boraitha cited above is in accordance withthe school of Manasheh, which excluded from the seven commandments judges and blasphemy, and included castration and kilaim. Thus was it taught in the school of Manasheh: Seven commandments were the descendants of Noah commanded: Concerning idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, a member of a living animal, castration, and kilaim. R. Jehudah, however, said: Adam Rishón was commanded as toidolatry only, as it reads [Gen. 2:16]: "And Adonai commanded the man" i.e., Adonai commanded him about the Torah of God (that he should not be exchanged for another). R. Yehudah b. Bathyra said: Also as to blasphemy. And there are some others who say, also concerning judges.

 

 

Point 4: It seems many commands are linked to each other, in the way that from the seven commands of Noah, you can deduce all the Torah, as the text says: 'Manasheh excluded judges and blasphemy and included castration and kilaim', and: 'R.Yehudah said: Adam was commanded about the Torah, that should not be exchanged for another)'. 

Precisely. The entire Torah is deduced from even the one: prohibition of idolatry. Obviously how can G-d permit bnei noah to engage in idolatry? He doesn't. He "turns them over to the stubbornness of their own hearts." a condition in which He did with Israel according to:

Psalm 81:
    ¹²"So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart,
         To walk in their own devices. 

It is rebellion that separates us from G-d, from Israel, and thus opens the door for judgment and the curse - a curse that is rightly upon all mankind since "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of G-d" - the Glory of G-d which is Messiah Yeshua. How can such a charge be laid? Because all mankind in included in the covenant made "there" in:

 Deut 29:

 ¹⁴"Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath, 

 ¹⁵but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our Godand with those who are not with us here today. 

[avi5207]

Question: Isn't it more important to understand the relationship we have with the creator through faith in His Son Yeshua/Yahshua/Jesus? After all when we are mikvahed (baptized) in His name are we not joined into one body... His body just as a bride and her groom are? My understanding is simply this: (I'm going to share several aspects and examples of our relationship to YHVH that God explains to man by using natural human relationships)
��� If Yeshua/Jesus is our Lord/Master then we are subject to His will in every way. He is the head so what He says is ours to trust in and obey. Most Christians will admit that Jesus lived a sinless life and obeyed all the Laws & Commandments of God the Father. We know this to be true. The major difference between our groups is that we believe our Master still requires us to learn the Torah on the Shabbat and practice all that applies to us today and most people that identify as Christians don't. (See Acts 15:21) Most Christians don't truly understand the fact that Yeshua did not die to set us free from the Torah but rather to 1) remove the curse of the Law 2) cover our sins committed as a result of our tainted sinful nature. 3) give us His Holy Spirit that we might begin the lifelong process of purification.
��� As long as we are circumcised of heart (willing to obey because of His Spiritual indwelling) we exist in a state of grace not being subject to the destroyer. We are perpetually justified because He is perpetually justified, we are saved/redeemed because He has redeemed us from a life of being barren just as Boaz redeemed Ruth. There is so much more to this than time permits me. If we turn at any time and seek to leave the safety of the house (as it was on the first ever Passover night) we then place ourselves back under the curse of the Torah and remove ourselves from His place of grace. So in conclusion it is really all about our new relationship, being grafted in like Ruth to the family of YHVH by faith and obedience. We are ?His children by adoption so we call Yeshua Master (husband) and YHVH Father. Actual descriptive names that describe one's nature become second in importance to the new and perfect relationship we have by faith and not works. Faith comes first or works become meaningless. Our hearts must be in it or we are only paying lip service and God is not fooled by anyone. It's not the name but the relationship we have that counts. A baby does not know its father's name (Bob, James, Don etc.,.) but it still has a relationship with its father. Relationship is everything since in order to be part of God's family we must be joined to Him by a relationship. In our case our relationship comes through faith and obedience to our Heavenly Father through our Lord and Master Yeshua who just like a husband covers us, nurtures and provides for us. One more thing... There is a passage in the Torah where YHVH says to Israel "I have broken your vow with death". Numbers 30 is the source for this authority but it only applies to us if we are a daughter or wife. I hope this makes since. If not I'll prayerfully try to explain it point by point to anyone confused or that sees things in a different way.

Shalom,


Avi

On 5/19/2011 1:56 PM, Bryce Henderson wrote:

I'm a Christian. I have no issues with calling Him "Jesus", as that is the sweet, sweet Name I first heard.

On 2011-05-19, at 12:37 PM, XuS Casal wrote:

It seems you are spilting hairs over small things. I love my savior, my messiah, my Jesus. He means to me no less because of what i call him.�
�
No, this is not about how�you call him; is about what the name represents. Jesus represents 1900 years of Roman Christianity. We are not Christians, if we say Jesus, people gonna believe we are Christians, when our "doctrines" (if we can call it like that) are very different. And as I said: Jesus was a Greek transliteration of the original Aramaic name: Yeshua which means: Salvation.
�

Son of God ( yes I spelled it out I am also confused why so many don't instead using G-D )

�

We respect and fear�the Name of God, and many of us beware to refer Him with respect. Some of us just do not pronounce the Sacred Name (it would be in vain). Is not�actually confusing. For�some orthodox�of this group, what is very confusing, is to�refer�God (any name or atribute of Him)�with no respect (i mean,�as if we�mention any other person). That's the reason they mark the difference from God and the rest of Creation, by referring Him with respect (G-d; instead of God). I think�this is more abour tolerance.

�

I never said Christianity was the one true faith but do I think Yeshua died for only the Jewish or those who covert to being Jewish. No he died for me too.�

�

Yeshua died for all minkind, but only His people get the benefit of this.�"You shall call his name Yeshua: for he shall save�his peoplefrom their sins (Mt 1:21).

Because obviously the sinners or Hitler won't inherit the upcoming World. Not all that say: my Lord my Lord, but only those that obey his commands (that's the Torah). Whoever obey all of his commands (including the process of conversion) by definition becomes Jew; no longer gentile.

Maybe you can explain the difference of the Torah and Old Testament ( no I don't believe it is old either) or the Tanak and the new.

�

Torah is the�statutes of�God, the laws of His kingdom, that He pronounced, wrote and gave to Moses in Mount Sina�, in front of more than three million witnesses.�the�Torah of Moses, is what we call: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus,�Numbers and Deuteronomy.

the�Tanak�is an acronym for:�Torah,�Neviim (Prophets) &�Ketuvim (Writings).

TANAK is the recopilation of the books of the Prophets, the�historical and poetical writings and the Torah. Yeshua used to call it: the Torah and the Prophets, or the Torah the Prophets and the Psalms.�

I wonder why you didn't know this.���

I sense although you don't know me you would not want to tolerate sitting next to me in temple � I am truly trying to learn here�

�

You sense wrong, everyone is welcome in the Synagogue.

Shalom

�

-XuS-

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

On May 19, 2011, at 11:52 AM, YAS2015 <yas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Acts of the Talmidim Chapter 15 (The Jerusalem Beit Din) requires conversion to Judaism. If the person chooses not to c as thonvert thent� hat person is NOT apart of the Commonwealth of Israel or a foreignor among us as the Torah puts it. In order to be a son or daughter of Avraham, the Goy must conduct their lives just like Avraham. It took 20 years for Avraham to go through circumcision. Therefore, the goal of Torah is to convert to Judaism. One Torah for all time and for all people.

�

Christianity is NOT the One True Faith given once for all time as the Ketuvim Netzarim states is because Christianity was birthed in 98c.e. by Bishop Ignatious. Messiah Yeshua came to be the Messiah of Judaism not of any other group of people or religion.

On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 4:42 AM, XuS Casal�<chu...@hotmail.com>�wrote:

'We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new'.

�
-�We Jews don't believe in Jesus�(a�Christian human-god� of the roman empire that made away with the Torah).
-We believe in Yeshua�(A Jewish Rabbi who came to teach the Torah; which name means Salvation, and makes sense in Matthew book context (shall put his name: Yeshua)�).

-We Jews Don't believe in 'old testament' thing.

-We believe the Torah is eternal and perfect�(and so, there's no any other Torah, and�we won't have any other Torah. And the same way, the TANAK is�words of life comming from the Torah, so NOP. They are not old).

�'I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side'.
�
-What I'm gonna tell you needs a bit of understanding of Jewish culture, so please don't missunderstand me. The word gentiles (goyim) means: of the nations (people that don't belong to God's nation). Because God has only one nation: ISRAEL. The Law and Statutes of the nation of Israel and her King (the Messiah) is the Torah of Moshe (as we read: 'when he will rule.. ..he shall make a copy of THIS Torah'). So, if you Love God, and you wanna be of His people, You'll Obey Torah (not only the parts that you prefer). So, by definition, if you love God, one day your goal is stop being�of a foreign nation�(ben Nekar; i.e pagan), and be: Of The people (haAm); meaning: Jew.

What really counts is the�citizenship of Israel in God's eyes. And when you are part of Israel, you have the same Torah with Israel, if you obey all the Torah (including the process of conversion), then you are Jew; not gentile.
A gentile is someone who doesn't obey Torah, so by that definition, they are not able to TEACH Torah to the rest of the world. A teacher needs to�remove the beam of his eye.

A gentile during the process of conversion and learning, is a proselyte (ger), And he lives among Israel (as you said: 'we go to the same temple'; i guess that means a Jew�Synagogue). As we have learn from the Noahide law study, people in process of conversion are allowed to 'skip' (I'm sorry, that's not the correct word, but i cannot find a better one) some commands by God's mercy. UNTIL they learn, as we read in acts: 'because Moshe is being read every Shabbat in the Synagogues'. With which purpose? with the purpose that people who listen may learn, right?
�
Again, I ask you to consider these words with love, I have no intention to make any discrimination, and if it sounds like that, be sure�that's not what i meant. �
�
Shalom
�

-XuS-

---

Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:35:57 -0700

From:�micke...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Mosh� [Noachide Not Cleanness]

To:�jerusale...@googlegroups.com

CC:�jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Have a question about conversion. My husband attended and became had his conversion but I am so lost in this concept. Why does a gentile have a conversion to become a messianic Jew ? I believe the exact same things but have no desire to become Jewish. I celebrate shabbot go to temple but as a gentile. Help me understand can a person born gentile really ever become Jewish ? And why? We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new. We celebrated High Holy days with other Jews for Jesus and attend the same temples. But I still even though I do all the traditions asked consider becoming Jewish. Main because I don't see how a gentile becomes Jewish and a Jew that believes in Jesus at that. I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side. Please please help me understand.�

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On May 18, 2011, at 3:29 PM, GORDON LAMBERT <lamb...@msn.com> wrote:

GL says:
�
Regarding the Word Torah,� I found the word�much earlier, before�"Jacob".� It's found in�the first book of the five.� It's not noticable in the�greek translation.
It's in Hebrew.� It's Plural for Torah.� Torot.��So Torah was for�all mankind,�for his house (Beit).
�
Selah Achi
�

---

From:�isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org

Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:54:56 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Mosh� [Noachide Not Cleanness]

To:�jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Shalom Xus, my responses are in-line below:

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:04 AM, XuS Casal�<chu...@hotmail.com>�wrote:

Israel said:�
According to Torah, the Torah is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, and this is absolutely so! Yet this should not stop Israel from teaching it to the world, for Israel has an obligation to bring Torah to the nations, as it is written in Torah that Israel was to offer terms of shalom to the nations around her. This midrashically can refer to the instruction to teach Messiah (who is called sar sharlom) to the world.�

From Gen 37:14 We see that when others have shalom, the Word is brought back as it is written "Go and see if shalom is with your brothers and shalom is with the flock and bring back Davar..."
Therefore it is Israel's responsibility to bring Shalom/Messiah/Word/Torah to the world, and yes, give the message of Torah to the gentiles who want to be Jewish. Upon their formal conversion, they take upon themselves the accountability of the Jewish community that accepts them, and in exchange they take upon themselves the responsibility for being the visible "keepers of the oracles of G-d" as Paul puts it as the "advantage" of the Jew - meaning that it is the Jew's privilege (and responsibility) is to teach Torah to the nations and therefore they are to guard it (so as to do it) as an example to them.

�

Hi, Israel, today I've been reading the Talmud concerning the Bnei Noah, and the Noahide law came again to consideration (keep in mind that i've been with this teaching several years). I wanna put the text and my thoughts, and please, if you don't mind help me with this reasoning.

�

This time I focus on tract Sanhedrin 7.

�

'The rabbis taught:�Seven commandments were given to the�bnei Noah, and they are: Concerning judges, blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, and that they must not eat of the member of a body while the animal is still alive. R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel said: Also of the blood of the same. R. Hidka said: Also castration was forbidden to them. R. Simeon said: Also witchcraft. And R. Jose said: All that is said in: the portion on witchcraft is forbidden to a descendant of Noah. As it reads [Dt 18:10-12]: "There shall not be found among thee�any one who causeth his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who useth divination, one who is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a conjurer, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or who inquireth of the dead. For an abomination unto the Lord are all that do these things; and on account of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." And as there is no punishment without preceding warning, hence they were commanded not to do all this. R. Elazar said: Also Kilaim. I mean to say, the�descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together�(which are forbidden to the Israelites); but they are forbidden to gender different kinds of animals and to graft two kinds of trees together.�'

�

point 1: We all come from Noah, so we all are Bnei Noah.

Correct.�

point 2: Bnei Noah are not Israelites, as the text says: they can do things forbidden for Israel.

It is interesting to note that R. Elazar says "there is no punishment without preceding warning"�yet"no one is without excuse"�per R. Paul. It is understood in Jewish theology that a baby in the womb is taught the entire Torah by an angel, and as soon as the baby is born it is forgotten. If this is true, then certainly this satisfies the requirement of warning prior to birth for even Noah and his sons.� The Torah has always existed. And according to the Targumim, Adam was made to do Torah in the Garden. So then, can it rightly be said that there was no prior warning - especially when Adam knew the Torah? I believe R. Elazar's words "descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together�(which are forbidden to the Israelites)" refer not to an allowance as in that it's a mitzvah for bnei Noah to mix (remember that G-d never commands disobedience, thus that is why the High Priest can wear wool and linen and is commanded so, but the nations are not commanded so thus showing the contrast), but rather it is an allowance that is understood by later writers as an act of G-d's mercy due to the nations' willful rejection of Torah (remember only Israel accepted the Torah willingly but to all nations it was offered):

Acts 14:
16
"In the generations gone by�He permitted all the nations to go�their own ways;

- to go their own ways, not the Way of the L-rd which is to no mix wool and flax, and seed.

17

and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness."�

- What is the witness for? For the truth. And the Torah is truth as it is written by David:

Psalm 119:142

Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,And�Your Torah is truth.

And the Truth demands a witness to be established. Thus if there is are two witnesses, to a Truth duly attested, there is no lack of warning, and the responsibility for rejection of the Torah is upon anyone who chooses to go "their own way" which Deut 29-30 warns against doing:

Deut 29:

�¹⁹"It shall be when he hears the words of this curse, that he will boast, saying, 'I have peace though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart in order to destroy the watered land with the dry.'

- here they (those who choose to separate themselves from the elect, from Israel, to be the nations) walk in stubborness

�²⁰"The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.�

- the condemnation of such rebels is just (and why they need a savior)

�²¹"Then the LORD will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.�

- notice the man is singled out from all the tribes of Israel.. ie removed from the nation into a separate condition: one who receives the curses of the Torah, one literally then is "under" the Torah - a place of condemnation.

point 3: It seems that the bnei Noah are living within Israel (the text says: 'there shall not be found among you').

correct. as you reasoned above, Israel too is bnei Noah.

�

Whence is all this deduced? Said R. Johanan: From Genesis 2:16.�Were the descendants of Noah indeed commanded concerning judges? Is there not a Boraitha:�Ten�commandmentswere commanded to Israel in Marah; seven of them are those which were accepted by the descendants of Noah, and three were added to them: viz., Judges, Sabbath, and to honor father and mother.�Judges--as it is written [Ex 15:25]: "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance," etc. And concerning Sabbath and the honor of parents it reads [Dt.�5:12, 16]: "As�Adonai thy God hath�commanded thee." And R. Yehudah said: "As he has commanded you in Marah." Said R. Aha b. Jacob: This means that Israel was commanded to establish courts of justice in every district and city; and the�bnei Noah were commanded concerning judges in general only. But is there not a Boraitha: As Israel was commanded to establish judges in every city and district, so also were the�bnei Noah commanded? Said Rabha: The Tana of the Boraitha cited above is in accordance withthe school of Manasheh, which excluded from the seven commandments judges and blasphemy, and included castration and kilaim. Thus was it taught in the school of Manasheh:�Seven commandments were the descendants of Noah commanded: Concerning idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, a member of a living animal, castration, and kilaim.�R. Jehudah, however, said: Adam Rish�n was commanded as toidolatry only, as it reads [Gen. 2:16]: "And�Adonai commanded the man"�i.e.,�Adonai commanded him about the Torah of God (that he should not be exchanged for another).�R. Yehudah b. Bathyra said: Also as to blasphemy. And there are some others who say, also concerning judges.

�

�

Point 4: It seems many commands are linked to each other, in the way that from the seven commands of Noah, you can deduce all the Torah, as the text says: 'Manasheh excluded judges and blasphemy and included castration and kilaim', and: 'R.Yehudah said: Adam was commanded�about the Torah, that should not be exchanged for another)'.�

Precisely. The entire Torah is deduced from even the one: prohibition of idolatry. Obviously how can G-d permit bnei noah to engage in idolatry? He doesn't. He "turns them over to the stubbornness of their own hearts." a condition in which He did with Israel according to:

Psalm 81:

����¹²"So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart,
���������To walk in their own devices.�

It is rebellion that separates us from G-d, from Israel, and thus opens the door for judgment and the curse - a curse that is rightly upon all mankind since "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of G-d" - the Glory of G-d which is Messiah Yeshua. How can such a charge be laid? Because all mankind in included in the covenant made "there" in:

�Deut 29:

�¹⁴"Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath,�
�¹⁵but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our Godand with those who are not with us here today.�

Point 5: However, the precept of Shabbat was stated in Mount Sina� (as the Talmud makes the point), not in Ararat. So the Torah of Moshe�is for those that accept the pact in Sina�. But those that are not Israelites are to follow the pact of the bnei Noah, which have less commands than the pact in Marah, as we read: 'Bnei Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture wool and flax'.

The Sun, Moon, and stars were created for "moedim." So when did the moedim exist - even to Adam? In the Beginning. And Sabbath is the first of the moedim - appointed times. The laws given to Noah are given to Noah for the same reason the Sabbath is given to Moshe: to give us the context wherein we understand the law. It is not a chronological unfolding of the revelation of Torah to mankind (although it can be argued both and, for as one increases obedience, the more they learn Torah), but rather the entire Torah is meant to be taken as a whole, with one part explaining another. That is why one must look to Leviticus for an understanding of what clean and unclean animals are - to know what animals Noah brought on the ark. Same thing with bikkurim, firstfruits, which Abel brought - not explained until later in Torah. Not even Shabbat in which G-d himself rested, is explained until later in Torah. Are we to assume then such revelation did not exist or was not available? We can't if we hold to a belief in the Torah's continuity integrity...and wholeness. The first mention of these mitzvot are in a narrative which gives us the context for the command. The entire Torah is contextual, and is meant to be taken as a whole with one part explaining another. We learn this from the creation account, where it is stated that G-d made man and woman, and then repeats the creation of account of man and woman in more detail a few petuchah later: to teach us that one part of Torah is explained by another part of Torah. And if we have G-d creating the sun, moon, and stars for moedim, and teaches Adam Torah in the Garden, and he's to serve Torah, then we learn from the rest of Torah what that was all about: everything. Including Shabbat. Including prohibition of

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[XuS Casal]

I didn't mean people cannot pronounce the name: Jesus, or that it is wrong to say: Jesus.
I should make it clear. I have no problem about the Jesus name. I myself use the name Jesus with some people, but precisely i've found it to be a problematic concept when I have some conversation with someone who doesn't know anything about Judaism at all, or with the (non believers of Yeshua) Ortodox Jewish people.
 
Both of them associate the name Jesus (the Greek transliteration of Yeshua) with Catholic religion.
For them the association is as follows:
Jesus= Anti-Torah (made away with the 'useless' Law). Yeshua=a hebrew name.
Jesus Christ= the name of the god of Christians. Yeshua haMoshiach= the hoped Messiah of the Jews.
Jesus= the one who replaced Israel with Church. Yeshua= the name of an Israelite Rabbi.
Jesus= A name that only applies to Christ. Yeshua= a name that appears 29 times in the TANAK, from which we can know the name of the hoped Messiah. Yehoshua son of Nun is called Yeshua in Nehemiah 8:17.
Jesus= the reason the Catholic church murdered thousands of Jews. Yeshua= a name used by Jews.
 
As I said: this is not my idea, is the association that society makes with these names when I use them.
 
That's why I said:
-We Jews don't believe in Jesus (I mean: What that name represents for the society. a Christian human-god of the roman empire that made away with the Torah).
-We believe in Yeshua (I mean: what that name represents for the society. A Jewish Rabbi who came to teach the Torah; which name means Salvation, and makes sense in Matthew book context (shall put his name: Yeshua, for he shall save his people [Yeshua, ki hu Yishá et-Amú]).
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-
 

---

From: iserv...@mac.com

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 12:56:34 -0600
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[XuS Casal]

Sorry, Sorry. I've spelled wrong.  fix fix: Yeshua, ki hu yoshia et amú. (ישוע כי הוא יושיע את עמו) xD

Love!! :D

-XuS-
 

---

From: chu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 21:02:25 +0000

I didn't mean people cannot pronounce the name: Jesus, or that it is wrong to say: Jesus.
I should make it clear. I have no problem about the Jesus name. I myself use the name Jesus with some people, but precisely i've found it to be a problematic concept when I have some conversation with someone who doesn't know anything about Judaism at all, or with the (non believers of Yeshua) Ortodox Jewish people.
 
Both of them associate the name Jesus (the Greek transliteration of Yeshua) with Catholic religion.
For them the association is as follows:
Jesus= Anti-Torah (made away with the 'useless' Law). Yeshua=a hebrew name.
Jesus Christ= the name of the god of Christians. Yeshua haMoshiach= the hoped Messiah of the Jews.
Jesus= the one who replaced Israel with Church. Yeshua= the name of an Israelite Rabbi.
Jesus= A name that only applies to Christ. Yeshua= a name that appears 29 times in the TANAK, from which we can know the name of the hoped Messiah. Yehoshua son of Nun is called Yeshua in Nehemiah 8:17.
Jesus= the reason the Catholic church murdered thousands of Jews. Yeshua= a name used by Jews.
 
As I said: this is not my idea, is the association that society makes with these names when I use them.
 
That's why I said:
-We Jews don't believe in Jesus (I mean: What that name represents for the society. a Christian human-god of the roman empire that made away with the Torah).

-We believe in Yeshua (I mean: what that name represents for the society. A Jewish Rabbi who came to teach the Torah; which name means Salvation, and makes sense in Matthew book context (shall put his name: Yeshua, for he shall save his people [Yeshua, ki hu Yoshia et-Amú]).

[XuS Casal]

Wow Avi, Today I agree with you, and that makes me happy.
 
Shalom, achi
 
-XuS-
 

---

Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:51:26 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

Question: Isn't it more important to understand the relationship we have with the creator through faith in His Son Yeshua/Yahshua/Jesus? After all when we are mikvahed (baptized) in His name are we not joined into one body... His body just as a bride and her groom are? My understanding is simply this: (I'm going to share several aspects and examples of our relationship to YHVH that God explains to man by using natural human relationships)

    If Yeshua/Jesus is our Lord/Master then we are subject to His will in every way. He is the head so what He says is ours to trust in and obey. Most Christians will admit that Jesus lived a sinless life and obeyed all the Laws & Commandments of God the Father. We know this to be true. The major difference between our groups is that we believe our Master still requires us to learn the Torah on the Shabbat and practice all that applies to us today and most people that identify as Christians don't. (See Acts 15:21) Most Christians don't truly understand the fact that Yeshua did not die to set us free from the Torah but rather to 1) remove the curse of the Law 2) cover our sins committed as a result of our tainted sinful nature. 3) give us His Holy Spirit that we might begin the lifelong process of purification.

    As long as we are circumcised of heart (willing to obey because of His Spiritual indwelling) we exist in a state of grace not being subject to the destroyer. We are perpetually justified because He is perpetually justified, we are saved/redeemed because He has redeemed us from a life of being barren just as Boaz redeemed Ruth. There is so much more to this than time permits me. If we turn at any time and seek to leave the safety of the house (as it was on the first ever Passover night) we then place ourselves back under the curse of the Torah and remove ourselves from His place of grace. So in conclusion it is really all about our new relationship, being grafted in like Ruth to the family of YHVH by faith and obedience. We are ?His children by adoption so we call Yeshua Master (husband) and YHVH Father. Actual descriptive names that describe one's nature become second in importance to the new and perfect relationship we have by faith and not works. Faith comes first or works become meaningless. Our hearts must be in it or we are only paying lip service and God is not fooled by anyone. It's not the name but the relationship we have that counts. A baby does not know its father's name (Bob, James, Don etc.,.) but it still has a relationship with its father. Relationship is everything since in order to be part of God's family we must be joined to Him by a relationship. In our case our relationship comes through faith and obedience to our Heavenly Father through our Lord and Master Yeshua who just like a husband covers us, nurtures and provides for us. One more thing... There is a passage in the Torah where YHVH says to Israel "I have broken your vow with death". Numbers 30 is the source for this authority but it only applies to us if we are a daughter or wife. I hope this makes since. If not I'll prayerfully try to explain it point by point to anyone confused or that sees things in a different way.

Shalom,


Avi



On 5/19/2011 1:56 PM, Bryce Henderson wrote:

I'm a Christian. I have no issues with calling Him "Jesus", as that is the sweet, sweet Name I first heard.

On 2011-05-19, at 12:37 PM, XuS Casal wrote:

It seems you are spilting hairs over small things. I love my savior, my messiah, my Jesus. He means to me no less because of what i call him. 
 

No, this is not about how you call him; is about what the name represents. Jesus represents 1900 years of Roman Christianity. We are not Christians, if we say Jesus, people gonna believe we are Christians, when our "doctrines" (if we can call it like that) are very different. And as I said: Jesus was a Greek transliteration of the original Aramaic name: Yeshua which means: Salvation.

 

Son of God ( yes I spelled it out I am also confused why so many don't instead using G-D )

 

We respect and fear the Name of God, and many of us beware to refer Him with respect. Some of us just do not pronounce the Sacred Name (it would be in vain). Is not actually confusing. For some orthodox of this group, what is very confusing, is to refer God (any name or atribute of Him) with no respect (i mean, as if we mention any other person). That's the reason they mark the difference from God and the rest of Creation, by referring Him with respect (G-d; instead of God). I think this is more abour tolerance.

 

I never said Christianity was the one true faith but do I think Yeshua died for only the Jewish or those who covert to being Jewish. No he died for me too. 

 

Yeshua died for all minkind, but only His people get the benefit of this. "You shall call his name Yeshua: for he shall save his peoplefrom their sins (Mt 1:21).

Because obviously the sinners or Hitler won't inherit the upcoming World. Not all that say: my Lord my Lord, but only those that obey his commands (that's the Torah). Whoever obey all of his commands (including the process of conversion) by definition becomes Jew; no longer gentile.

Maybe you can explain the difference of the Torah and Old Testament ( no I don't believe it is old either) or the Tanak and the new.

 

Torah is the statutes of God, the laws of His kingdom, that He pronounced, wrote and gave to Moses in Mount Sinaí, in front of more than three million witnesses. the Torah of Moses, is what we call: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

the Tanak is an acronym for: Torah, Neviim (Prophets) & Ketuvim (Writings).

TANAK is the recopilation of the books of the Prophets, the historical and poetical writings and the Torah. Yeshua used to call it: the Torah and the Prophets, or the Torah the Prophets and the Psalms. 

I wonder why you didn't know this.   

I sense although you don't know me you would not want to tolerate sitting next to me in temple   I am truly trying to learn here 

 

You sense wrong, everyone is welcome in the Synagogue.

Shalom

 

-XuS-

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

On May 19, 2011, at 11:52 AM, YAS2015 <yas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Acts of the Talmidim Chapter 15 (The Jerusalem Beit Din) requires conversion to Judaism. If the person chooses not to c as thonvert thent  hat person is NOT apart of the Commonwealth of Israel or a foreignor among us as the Torah puts it. In order to be a son or daughter of Avraham, the Goy must conduct their lives just like Avraham. It took 20 years for Avraham to go through circumcision. Therefore, the goal of Torah is to convert to Judaism. One Torah for all time and for all people.

 

Christianity is NOT the One True Faith given once for all time as the Ketuvim Netzarim states is because Christianity was birthed in 98c.e. by Bishop Ignatious. Messiah Yeshua came to be the Messiah of Judaism not of any other group of people or religion.

On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 4:42 AM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

'We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new'.
 

- We Jews don't believe in Jesus (a Christian human-god  of the roman empire that made away with the Torah).
-We believe in Yeshua (A Jewish Rabbi who came to teach the Torah; which name means Salvation, and makes sense in Matthew book context (shall put his name: Yeshua) ).

-We Jews Don't believe in 'old testament' thing.

-We believe the Torah is eternal and perfect (and so, there's no any other Torah, and we won't have any other Torah. And the same way, the TANAK is words of life comming from the Torah, so NOP. They are not old).

 'I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side'.
 

-What I'm gonna tell you needs a bit of understanding of Jewish culture, so please don't missunderstand me. The word gentiles (goyim) means: of the nations (people that don't belong to God's nation). Because God has only one nation: ISRAEL. The Law and Statutes of the nation of Israel and her King (the Messiah) is the Torah of Moshe (as we read: 'when he will rule.. ..he shall make a copy of THIS Torah'). So, if you Love God, and you wanna be of His people, You'll Obey Torah (not only the parts that you prefer). So, by definition, if you love God, one day your goal is stop being of a foreign nation (ben Nekar; i.e pagan), and be: Of The people (haAm); meaning: Jew.

What really counts is the citizenship of Israel in God's eyes. And when you are part of Israel, you have the same Torah with Israel, if you obey all the Torah (including the process of conversion), then you are Jew; not gentile.
A gentile is someone who doesn't obey Torah, so by that definition, they are not able to TEACH Torah to the rest of the world. A teacher needs to remove the beam of his eye.

A gentile during the process of conversion and learning, is a proselyte (ger), And he lives among Israel (as you said: 'we go to the same temple'; i guess that means a Jew Synagogue). As we have learn from the Noahide law study, people in process of conversion are allowed to 'skip' (I'm sorry, that's not the correct word, but i cannot find a better one) some commands by God's mercy. UNTIL they learn, as we read in acts: 'because Moshe is being read every Shabbat in the Synagogues'. With which purpose? with the purpose that people who listen may learn, right?
 
Again, I ask you to consider these words with love, I have no intention to make any discrimination, and if it sounds like that, be sure that's not what i meant.  
 
Shalom

 
-XuS-

---

Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:35:57 -0700

From: micke...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

CC: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Have a question about conversion. My husband attended and became had his conversion but I am so lost in this concept. Why does a gentile have a conversion to become a messianic Jew ? I believe the exact same things but have no desire to become Jewish. I celebrate shabbot go to temple but as a gentile. Help me understand can a person born gentile really ever become Jewish ? And why? We both believe in Jesus and the old testament as well as the new. We celebrated High Holy days with other Jews for Jesus and attend the same temples. But I still even though I do all the traditions asked consider becoming Jewish. Main because I don't see how a gentile becomes Jewish and a Jew that believes in Jesus at that. I think the gentile and messanic Jews should teach the world side by side. Please please help me understand. 

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

On May 18, 2011, at 3:29 PM, GORDON LAMBERT <lamb...@msn.com> wrote:

GL says:
 
Regarding the Word Torah,  I found the word much earlier, before "Jacob".  It's found in the first book of the five.  It's not noticable in the greek translation.
It's in Hebrew.  It's Plural for Torah.  Torot.  So Torah was for all mankind, for his house (Beit).
 
Selah Achi
 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org

Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:54:56 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Shalom Xus, my responses are in-line below:

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:04 AM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Israel said: 
According to Torah, the Torah is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, and this is absolutely so! Yet this should not stop Israel from teaching it to the world, for Israel has an obligation to bring Torah to the nations, as it is written in Torah that Israel was to offer terms of shalom to the nations around her. This midrashically can refer to the instruction to teach Messiah (who is called sar sharlom) to the world. 

From Gen 37:14 We see that when others have shalom, the Word is brought back as it is written "Go and see if shalom is with your brothers and shalom is with the flock and bring back Davar..."
Therefore it is Israel's responsibility to bring Shalom/Messiah/Word/Torah to the world, and yes, give the message of Torah to the gentiles who want to be Jewish. Upon their formal conversion, they take upon themselves the accountability of the Jewish community that accepts them, and in exchange they take upon themselves the responsibility for being the visible "keepers of the oracles of G-d" as Paul puts it as the "advantage" of the Jew - meaning that it is the Jew's privilege (and responsibility) is to teach Torah to the nations and therefore they are to guard it (so as to do it) as an example to them.
 

Hi, Israel, today I've been reading the Talmud concerning the Bnei Noah, and the Noahide law came again to consideration (keep in mind that i've been with this teaching several years). I wanna put the text and my thoughts, and please, if you don't mind help me with this reasoning.
 

This time I focus on tract Sanhedrin 7.
 

'The rabbis taught: Seven commandments were given to the bnei Noah, and they are: Concerning judges, blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, and that they must not eat of the member of a body while the animal is still alive. R. Hananiah b. Gamaliel said: Also of the blood of the same. R. Hidka said: Also castration was forbidden to them. R. Simeon said: Also witchcraft. And R. Jose said: All that is said in: the portion on witchcraft is forbidden to a descendant of Noah. As it reads [Dt 18:10-12]: "There shall not be found among thee any one who causeth his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who useth divination, one who is an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a conjurer, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or who inquireth of the dead. For an abomination unto the Lord are all that do these things; and on account of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." And as there is no punishment without preceding warning, hence they were commanded not to do all this. R. Elazar said: Also Kilaim. I mean to say, the descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites); but they are forbidden to gender different kinds of animals and to graft two kinds of trees together. '

 

point 1: We all come from Noah, so we all are Bnei Noah.

Correct. 

point 2: Bnei Noah are not Israelites, as the text says: they can do things forbidden for Israel.

It is interesting to note that R. Elazar says "there is no punishment without preceding warning" yet"no one is without excuse" per R. Paul. It is understood in Jewish theology that a baby in the womb is taught the entire Torah by an angel, and as soon as the baby is born it is forgotten. If this is true, then certainly this satisfies the requirement of warning prior to birth for even Noah and his sons.  The Torah has always existed. And according to the Targumim, Adam was made to do Torah in the Garden. So then, can it rightly be said that there was no prior warning - especially when Adam knew the Torah? I believe R. Elazar's words "descendants of Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture of wool and flax; and also sow different kinds of seeds together (which are forbidden to the Israelites)" refer not to an allowance as in that it's a mitzvah for bnei Noah to mix (remember that G-d never commands disobedience, thus that is why the High Priest can wear wool and linen and is commanded so, but the nations are not commanded so thus showing the contrast), but rather it is an allowance that is understood by later writers as an act of G-d's mercy due to the nations' willful rejection of Torah (remember only Israel accepted the Torah willingly but to all nations it was offered):

Acts 14:
16
"In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways;

- to go their own ways, not the Way of the L-rd which is to no mix wool and flax, and seed.

17
and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness." 

- What is the witness for? For the truth. And the Torah is truth as it is written by David:

Psalm 119:142

Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,And Your Torah is truth.

And the Truth demands a witness to be established. Thus if there is are two witnesses, to a Truth duly attested, there is no lack of warning, and the responsibility for rejection of the Torah is upon anyone who chooses to go "their own way" which Deut 29-30 warns against doing:

Deut 29:

 ¹⁹"It shall be when he hears the words of this curse, that he will boast, saying, 'I have peace though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart in order to destroy the watered land with the dry.'

- here they (those who choose to separate themselves from the elect, from Israel, to be the nations) walk in stubborness

 ²⁰"The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. 

- the condemnation of such rebels is just (and why they need a savior)

 ²¹"Then the LORD will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law. 

- notice the man is singled out from all the tribes of Israel.. ie removed from the nation into a separate condition: one who receives the curses of the Torah, one literally then is "under" the Torah - a place of condemnation.

point 3: It seems that the bnei Noah are living within Israel (the text says: 'there shall not be found among you').

correct. as you reasoned above, Israel too is bnei Noah.

 

Whence is all this deduced? Said R. Johanan: From Genesis 2:16. Were the descendants of Noah indeed commanded concerning judges? Is there not a Boraitha: Ten commandmentswere commanded to Israel in Marah; seven of them are those which were accepted by the descendants of Noah, and three were added to them: viz., Judges, Sabbath, and to honor father and mother. Judges--as it is written [Ex 15:25]: "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance," etc. And concerning Sabbath and the honor of parents it reads [Dt. 5:12, 16]: "As Adonai thy God hath commanded thee." And R. Yehudah said: "As he has commanded you in Marah." Said R. Aha b. Jacob: This means that Israel was commanded to establish courts of justice in every district and city; and the bnei Noah were commanded concerning judges in general only. But is there not a Boraitha: As Israel was commanded to establish judges in every city and district, so also were the bnei Noah commanded? Said Rabha: The Tana of the Boraitha cited above is in accordance withthe school of Manasheh, which excluded from the seven commandments judges and blasphemy, and included castration and kilaim. Thus was it taught in the school of Manasheh: Seven commandments were the descendants of Noah commanded: Concerning idolatry, adultery, bloodshed, robbery, a member of a living animal, castration, and kilaim. R. Jehudah, however, said: Adam Rishón was commanded as toidolatry only, as it reads [Gen. 2:16]: "And Adonai commanded the man" i.e., Adonai commanded him about the Torah of God (that he should not be exchanged for another). R. Yehudah b. Bathyra said: Also as to blasphemy. And there are some others who say, also concerning judges.

 

 

Point 4: It seems many commands are linked to each other, in the way that from the seven commands of Noah, you can deduce all the Torah, as the text says: 'Manasheh excluded judges and blasphemy and included castration and kilaim', and: 'R.Yehudah said: Adam was commanded about the Torah, that should not be exchanged for another)'. 

Precisely. The entire Torah is deduced from even the one: prohibition of idolatry. Obviously how can G-d permit bnei noah to engage in idolatry? He doesn't. He "turns them over to the stubbornness of their own hearts." a condition in which He did with Israel according to:

Psalm 81:

    ¹²"So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart,

         To walk in their own devices. 

It is rebellion that separates us from G-d, from Israel, and thus opens the door for judgment and the curse - a curse that is rightly upon all mankind since "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of G-d" - the Glory of G-d which is Messiah Yeshua. How can such a charge be laid? Because all mankind in included in the covenant made "there" in:

 Deut 29:

 ¹⁴"Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath, 

 ¹⁵but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our Godand with those who are not with us here today. 

Point 5: However, the precept of Shabbat was stated in Mount Sinaí (as the Talmud makes the point), not in Ararat. So the Torah of Moshe is for those that accept the pact in Sinaí. But those that are not Israelites are to follow the pact of the bnei Noah, which have less commands than the pact in Marah, as we read: 'Bnei Noah are allowed to dress themselves with a mixture wool and flax'.

The Sun, Moon, and stars were created for "moedim." So when did the moedim exist - even to Adam? In the Beginning. And Sabbath is the first of the moedim - appointed times. The laws given to Noah are given to Noah for the same reason the Sabbath is given to Moshe: to give us the context wherein we understand the law. It is not a chronological unfolding of the revelation of Torah to mankind (although it can be argued both and, for as one increases obedience, the more they learn Torah), but rather the entire Torah is meant to be taken as a whole, with one part explaining another. That is why one must look to Leviticus for an understanding of what clean and unclean animals are - to know what animals Noah brought on the ark. Same thing with bikkurim, firstfruits, which Abel brought - not explained until later in Torah. Not even Shabbat in which G-d himself rested, is explained until later in Torah. Are we to assume then such revelation did not exist or was not available? We can't if we hold to a belief in the Torah's continuity integrity...and wholeness. The first mention of these mitzvot are in a narrative which gives us the context for the command. The entire Torah is contextual, and is meant to be taken as a whole with one part explaining another. We learn this from the creation account, where it is stated that G-d made man and woman, and then repeats the creation of account of man and woman in more detail a few petuchah later: to teach us that one part of Torah is explained by another part of Torah. And if we have G-d creating the sun, moon, and stars for moedim, and teaches Adam Torah in the Garden, and he's to serve Torah, then we learn from the rest of Torah what that was all about: everything. Including Shabbat. Including prohibition of

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[YAS2015]

XuS and Avi.

You two took the words out of my keyboard. 3 Habirus in agreement.  If that is not evidence that Hashem is still sitting on his bench, I don't know what is! LOL!

[Mickey]

Why would I know know what the TANAK was if I was born and raised Christian?? 

I think your reasoning behind not calling him Jesus is absurd. Why do you care what " other people are gonna believe " ? As long as He knows in your heart what you believe it doesn't matter. 

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

[Mickey]

Avi

Thank you for your response. 

Sent from my can't live without iPhone!!

On May 19, 2011, at 7:15 PM, YAS2015 <yas...@gmail.com> wrote:

XuS and Avi.

You two took the words out of my keyboard. 3 Habirus in agreement.  If that is not evidence that Hashem is still sitting on his bench, I don't know what is! LOL!

On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 5:11 PM, XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Wow Avi, Today I agree with you, and that makes me happy.
 
Shalom, achi
 
-XuS-
 

---

Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:51:26 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

Question: Isn't it more important to understand the relationship we have with the creator through faith in His Son Yeshua/Yahshua/Jesus? After all when we are mikvahed (baptized) in His name are we not joined into one body... His body just as a bride and her groom are? My understanding is simply this: (I'm going to share several aspects and examples of our relationship to YHVH that God explains to man by using natural human relationships)
    If Yeshua/Jesus is our Lord/Master then we are subject to His will in every way. He is the head so what He says is ours to trust in and obey. Most Christians will admit that Jesus lived a sinless life and obeyed all the Laws & Commandments of God the Father. We know this to be true. The major difference between our groups is that we believe our Master still requires us to learn the Torah on the Shabbat and practice all that applies to us today and most people that identify as Christians don't. (See Acts 15:21) Most Christians don't truly understand the fact that Yeshua did not die to set us free from the Torah but rather to 1) remove the curse of the Law 2) cover our sins committed as a result of our tainted sinful nature. 3) give us His Holy Spirit that we might begin the lifelong process of purification.
    As long as we are circumcised of heart (willing to obey because of His Spiritual indwelling) we exist in a state of grace not being subject to the destroyer. We are perpetually justified because He is perpetually justified, we are saved/redeemed because He has redeemed us from a life of being barren just as Boaz redeemed Ruth. There is so much more to this than time permits me. If we turn at any time and seek to leave the safety of the house (as it was on the first ever Passover night) we then place ourselves back under the curse of the Torah and remove ourselves from His place of grace. So in conclusion it is really all about our new relationship, being grafted in like Ruth to the family of YHVH by faith and obedience. We are ?His children by adoption so we call Yeshua Master (husband) and YHVH Father. Actual descriptive names that describe one's nature become second in importance to the new and perfect relationship we have by faith and not works. Faith comes first or works become meaningless. Our hearts must be in it or we are only paying lip service and God is not fooled by anyone. It's not the name but the relationship we have that counts. A baby does not know its father's name (Bob, James, Don etc.,.) but it still has a relationship with its father. Relationship is everything since in order to be part of God's family we must be joined to Him by a relationship. In our case our relationship comes through faith and obedience to our Heavenly Father through our Lord and Master Yeshua who just like a husband covers us, nurtures and provides for us. One more thing... There is a passage in the Torah where YHVH says to Israel "I have broken your vow with death". Numbers 30 is the source for this authority but it only applies to us if we are a daughter or wife. I hope this makes since. If not I'll prayerfully try to explain it point by point to anyone confused or that sees things in a different way.

Shalom,


Avi

[GORDON LAMBERT]

Avi, GL says Thank you too.  Wow.  perfectly said.  :)

---

Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:50:15 -0700

[Jeff A]

B”H

 

R. Gerald Schroeder describes it thus in his book “Genesis dn the Big Bang.”  Find the first occurrence of the T in the Hebrew Tanakh, and from there count to the 50^th letter (he reason for counting 49 letters is because in Lev 23:15 we commanded to count 49 days from Pesach, and then celebrate Shavuot on the next (50^th) day), and there you will find the letter T.  Count 49 more, and then the next letter is an R, and then 49 more, and the next letter is an H.  You can repeat this exercise in Exodus, and you will get the same results.  In Leviticus this doesn’t work, but if you go to the first occurrence of the letter Y, and then count 7, you come to the second letter of the Divine Name, and 7 more, and you come to the third, and finally 7 more, and you come to the last H.  The number 7 is used, because the Holy Sabbath falls on the 7^th day, and is the first day that was made holy.  In Numbers, you reverse what was done in Genesis and Exodus, and you find the word Torah spelled in reverse.  This is, as R. Schroeder explains, because the Torah always faces towards HaShem.  He goes on to explain more, but I think this is sufficient.  R. Schroeder, for those who are not familiar with him, has a PhD in Nuclear Physics and Earth and Planetary Sciences from MIT.  He is an Orthodox rabbi and lecturer at Aish HaTorah.  His book on creation is fascinating.

 

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

[avi5207]

Thank you Jeff you have redeemed me! :-) 

Shalom,

Avi

[Bryce Henderson]

Jeff - I can't find this using your directions. The first "T" is at the end of bereshit. I count 50 and I don't find another "T".

[Amanda Deyzel]

Could someone also explain Galatians 4:20-31 in more clear, Torah-based understanding, please?

Shalom
Amanda

Amanda Deyzel
0825505117

Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom

---

From: Jeff A <xinu...@hotmail.com>

Sender: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:14:45 -0500

To: <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [JC] The Unclean Animals Before Moshé [Noachide Not Cleanness]

[Jeff A]

B”H

 

Toda Bryce, I misread his description.  The first letter is the T in Bereshit.  The next letter, the “O” is found in the word T’hom, the next is the R in Yavara, and the H is found in Elohim.  If the Hebrew text shows up below, I have highlighted the letters in red.  Only consonants are counted.

“

Gen 1:1-5 WLC  בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃  (2)  וְהָאָ֗רֶץ הָיְתָ֥ה תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י תְהֹ֑ום וְר֣וּחַ אֱלֹהִ֔ים מְרַחֶ֖פֶת עַל־פְּנֵ֥י הַמָּֽיִם׃  (3)  וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור וַֽיְהִי־אֹֽור׃  (4)  וַיַּ֧רְא אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָאֹ֖ור כִּי־טֹ֑וב וַיַּבְדֵּ֣ל אֱלֹהִ֔ים בֵּ֥ין הָאֹ֖ור וּבֵ֥ין הַחֹֽשֶׁךְ׃  (5)  וַיִּקְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים׀ לָאֹור֙ יֹ֔ום וְלַחֹ֖שֶׁךְ קָ֣רָא לָ֑יְלָה וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר יֹ֥ום אֶחָֽד׃

 

 

“

I don’t think a rabbi such as Dr. Schroeder would put his credibility on the line if this case was not true.  By the way, his book is fascinating, and I am planning on reading some of his other books.

[Jeff A]

B"H.  HaShem willing, I'll put my two cents worth in before Sabbath if I can manage it, because it is an interesting topic.

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

[Bryce Henderson]

Thanks. :O)

[XuS Casal]

Don't get mad at me, please :D I just thought you'd know what the TANAK is, because you said in your first comment:

'My husband attended and became had his conversion but I am so lost in this concept.'

1st I supposed you'd listen this term from your husband.

'Why does a gentile have a conversion to become a messianic Jew ? I believe the exact same things but have no desire to become Jewish.'
 
You believe the exact same things, so I thought you had a previous conversation about what Judaism is, when the 1st thing a Jew teach to a Christian is that the "old testament" is not called so.
 
 'I celebrate shabbot go to temple but as a gentile.'
 
When you say: Temple, I thought you mean a "Messianic Jewish Synagogue", where the word TANAK is used constantly, but don't get angry, please.
 
'I think your reasoning behind not calling him Jesus is absurd. Why do you care what " other people are gonna believe " ? As long as He knows in your heart what you believe it doesn't matter.' 
 
No, No. This is not about CARE what people are gonna believe of me. You can read again my last answer below.
 
Shalom

 
 
I didn't mean people cannot pronounce the name: Jesus, or that it is wrong to say: Jesus.
I should make it clear. I have no problem about the Jesus name. I myself use the name Jesus with some people, but precisely i've found it to be a problematic concept when I have some conversation with someone who doesn't know anything about Judaism at all, or with the (non believers of Yeshua) Ortodox Jewish people.
 
Both of them associate the name Jesus (the Greek transliteration of Yeshua) with Catholic religion.
For them the association is as follows:
Jesus= Anti-Torah (made away with the 'useless' Law). Yeshua=a hebrew name.
Jesus Christ= the name of the god of Christians. Yeshua haMoshiach= the hoped Messiah of the Jews.
Jesus= the one who replaced Israel with Church. Yeshua= the name of an Israelite Rabbi.
Jesus= A name that only applies to Christ. Yeshua= a name that appears 29 times in the TANAK, from which we can know the name of the hoped Messiah. Yehoshua son of Nun is called Yeshua in Nehemiah 8:17.
Jesus= the reason the Catholic church murdered thousands of Jews. Yeshua= a name used by Jews.
 
As I said: this is not my idea, is the association that society makes with these names when I use them.
 
That's why I said:
-We Jews don't believe in Jesus (I mean: What that name represents for the society. a Christian human-god of the roman empire that made away with the Torah).
-We believe in Yeshua (I mean: what that name represents for the society. A Jewish Rabbi who came to teach the Torah; which name means Salvation, and makes sense in Matthew book context (shall put his name: Yeshua, for he shall save his people [Yeshua, ki hu Yoshia et-Amú]).
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-
 
 
 
 

---

Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:45:00 -0700

[firecra...@aol.com]

Mickey, I am an ex-"christian" and have studied this issue for about a year now. It is true that YHWH looks at the heart and knows our heart. It is also true that He says these people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. Many "christians" think they are sincere in following their traditions. They think that because in their heart they are honoring Him by observing Christmas and Easter that makes it OK. What honors YHWH is obedience to His commands. Many people believe that you should only use the names YHWH and Yehshua when referring to Him. Many even disagree with the spelling of Yehshua(Yahshua, Yahushua, Yeshua, etc.). After studying this issue I came to the conclusion that I should ask myself, what if they're right? I want to honor YHWH as much as I can. I don't think there is any possibility that YHWH is offended if we use His true Hebrew name. There is some possibility that we might offend Him by using his traditional "christian" names. My decision is to use His Hebrew name whenever possible because that gives me the highest probability of pleasing Him and honoring Him. It isn't worth getting into an argument with people about this issue. The main thing is to do whats right in your heart so that you can be convinced that you are honoring Him in the best way possible. I take joy in using the names YHWH and Yehshua because I believe that I am pleasing Him.  Shalom! Roger 

--

[YAS2015]

Bryce,

 

1) The term Christian is used 3 times in the Ketuvim Netzarim. Once by Rabbi Yaakov the brother of Yeshua and the other by Rabbi Kefa the Zealot. All three times it was used in a profane way by Pagans to describe Gentile followers of Yeshua. The word Christian began as a profanne word and it is still a profane word today. I know many a Gentile follower fo Yeshua that desire to get back to what the early followers were not only called, but how they worshipped.

 

2) According to the Ketuvim Netzarim in Acts of the Talmidim, the only term used by any gentile follower of Yeshua was Messianic. That is what they called themselves back then and also what the Netzarim would have called them.

 

3) The term "Messianic Jew" is a misnomer since ALL religious Jews are waiting for the Prophesied One to come.

 

4)  Bryce, as a Christian you should know your history better than any outsider. You should know that ALL Jews that follow Yeshua al Natzeret are considered Netzarim and according to the Nicean Council - all Netzarim are "Heretics because they are still fettered with the Law - circumcision, Shabbat and the rest. They are NOT Christians. They are nothing but a Jew." The Netzarim were not even allowed 1 seat at the Nicean Council. In fact when the Christian Theologians were done, Emperor Constatine stood up and stated "that the Theologians are correct. The Jews are a dispicable (sp?) people."

 

5) You should also know that according to Christian Tribal Law (specifically the Laodecia Council in 365 c.e.), that the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity is based off of Sun Worship. If you would like to verify this, do a google search on Eqyptian Sun Worship and take a GOOD look at the Eqyptian Sun Worship Symbols. Then do another search on what the Catholics call the Black Pope - the Jesuit Leader in Spain. Look very closely to the Black Pope's shield and you will find the very same 3 Sun Worship Symbols. Coincidence? Hmmm.

 

 

6) The term Christian is very closely associated with another term called Crusader. Many Christians (even today) enjoy emulating a Crusader. The Term Christian and Crusader in Jewish Terms are not nice to say the least. Both terms mean "Extremely Violent Murderer, Extremely Violent Rapist, Thief, accuser of the Mishpocha making such accusations such as poisoning the Christian Wells during the Black Plague years. The other accusations made about Jews (all Jews) is that we are child abusers and child molesters. The Crusaders paid for their "Crusades" by going into the Jewish Gettos and stealing their gold and silver. They raped our women and children in Europe alone. In the Middle East they are known by these terms because they murdered, raped and stole from Christians, Jews and Muslims alike.

 

7)  The term Evangelical Christian means "the only friend and ally that the Nation of Israel and the Jewish People have on this planet and not eventhe United Staes Government can legally, morally or ethically make that claim legitimately. Please see the Israeli Case Law called 12 Messianic Jews versus the Department of Interior Ministry dated 16 April 2008.

 

8) I agree that Hashem knows the heart of a man, but are you able to see through the lense of the Jewish People? At least half of the "Christian Church" are blatant Anti-Semites. If I were a Christian, I would change religions and I called myself in order not to make a stand with the other kinds of a Christians and I have not included "Gene Robinson and his/her/it High Priestess."

 

May Hashem bless you brother.

Yacov

 

--

[Bryce Henderson]

Roger,

Are there any traditions you keep which are wrong? I cannot say that I am blameless, for I know how it is possible to be deceived - just like the "Christians".

Shalom,

Bryce

[Bryce Henderson]

I don't buy your ideas concerning what Scripture says about the term "Christian".

[Amanda Deyzel]

Could someone explain Galatians 4:20-31 in more clear, Torah-based understanding, please?

Shalom
Amanda
South Africa

Amanda Deyzel
0825505117

Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom

---

From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>

Sender: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:25:16 -0600

To: <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Bryce Henderson]

Perhaps this will help:

FROM http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/commentaries/messianic-targum-galatians/

Messianic Targum Galatians

February 17, 2009 Israel Betzalel No comments

Color Code:
NIV text | improved translation | insertion based on context (thought based on context)

Galatians 1

1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Messiah Yeshua and G-d the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,
To the called-out assemblies in Galatia:

3Unmerited favor, and peace to you from G-d our Father and the Master, Messiah Yeshua, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our G-d and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one (G-d) who called you by the unmerited favor of Messiah and are turning to a different way to eternal life (one that alone requires personal merit)— 7which is really no way to eternal life at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the way to eternal life offered through Messiah. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a way to eternal life other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a way to eternal life other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned (and I’m speaking to the one doing this among you)!

10Am I now trying to win the approval of men (just like the one doing this to you), or of G-d? Or am I trying to please men (like those who promote this other way to eternal life)? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Messiah (who provides the only way to eternal life).

11I want you to know, brothers, that the way to eternal life I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man (so one couldn’t say it’s not of G-d), nor was I taught it (so one couldn’t say I could never find it on my own); rather, I received it by revelation from Messiah Yeshua (who himself stopped me in a vision on the road to Damascus, prompting me to entirely re-investigate this matter concerning the way to eternal life I now preach to you).

13For you have heard of my previous (belief and walk in another) way of (eternal) life, in Judaism (in which I clung to a different means to eternal life through Jewish identity alone), how intensely I persecuted the called-out assembly of G-d and tried to destroy it (since I sincerely believed the Way was leading all other Jews astray from the only means to salvation, which I believed was through Jewish identity alone). 14I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers (which included the teaching that birth or conversion into Judaism is the only means to eternal life for anyone). 15But when G-d, who set me apart from birth and called me by his unmerited favor, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man (so that my desire to truly know the truth for myself could not be corrupted by others), 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was (so that I could study on my own and so be able to authenticate separately what it is they preach, if in fact what they preach was correct), but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus (in order to study and understand this way to eternal life).

18Then after three years (of extensive studying through a three year Torah reading cycle, looking for answers to understanding the way to eternal life), I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days (to confirm with him all that I discovered). 19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother (because I wanted to go to no one else other than the one who was the leader of the sect who knew Yeshua from childhood, so I could also confirm with him what I learned concerning the way to eternal life through Yeshua). 20I assure you before G-d that what I am writing you is no lie (-I really did discover this way to eternal life through my own studies, without any input from the Jerusalem leaders, and separately arrived at the same conclusions they had already known). 21Later I went to Syria and Cilicia (to begin preaching what I learned on my own, and what was confirmed to me by Peter, and James). 22I was personally unknown to the called-out assemblies of Judea that are in Messiah. 23They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24And they praised G-d because of me.

Galatians 2

1Fourteen years later (of preaching the way to eternal life through Messiah Yeshua) I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas (as a witness to my ministry and what we taught, in order to give an account of to the leaders in Jerusalem then). I took Titus along also (who is a Gentile turning to G-d). 2I went in response to a revelation (that it would be prudent to give an account of my teaching and my ministry) and set before them the way to eternal life that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain (even though I already confirmed what I learned on my own with James more than fourteen years ago). 3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to go through conversion to Judaism (in order to fellowship with the Jerusalem leaders), even though he was a Greek (and not yet recognized as a Jewish convert by the Jewish conversion process). 4This matter arose (which required me to give an account to the Jerusalem leadership) because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom (from our old natures which relied on the world for our identity, which) we have in Messiah Yeshua and to make us slaves (again to our old natures and the world the world gives us). 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the way to eternal life (, which allows Jews and Gentiles to freely fellowship together because we all are immersed in the same identity of Messiah Yeshua, and therefore take on his identity and thus the right of fellowship with one another,) might remain with you (and not be taken away which would make it easy for you to be led astray by the false way to eternal life through Jewish identity alone which those false brothers wanted us to give in to).

6As for those who seemed to be important (such as James, Peter, and John)—whatever they were makes no difference to me; G-d does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing (new or different) to my message (which I had been preaching for the past 14 years). 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. 8For G-d, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the unmerited favor given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked (in what may have been seen as an addition to our mission) was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men (of the party of the Pharisees who still didn’t understand that eternal life is given by identity in Messiah Yeshua alone, and who said they) came from James, Peter used to eat with the (G-d-fearing, Torah-keeping, but still unconverted) Gentiles (who are believers in Messiah Yeshua, as we). But when they (of the party of the Pharisees, who tow the line that Gentiles are intrinsically unclean, are “sinners,” and thus believe it is not permitted for a Jew to associate with Gentiles) arrived, Peter began to draw back and separate himself from the (G-d-fearing, Torah-keeping) Gentiles (who are believers in Messiah Yeshua, just as we are,) because he was afraid of those who belonged to the Jewish conversion-first-before-fellowship group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy (in that by their actions they now preached that it was now no longer ok to fellowship with unconverted believing Gentiles, even though this is contrary to the truth of the identity we all share in being clothed in Yeshua as believers), so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the way to eternal life (that declares those immersed in Yeshua as identified in him, making even the believing Gentiles a people that Jews can fellowship with), I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a (believing) Gentile (who themselves live by being immersed in Messiah Yeshua, and who themselves fellowship with other believing Gentiles) and not like a Jew (who according to the traditions of our fathers are not allowed to associate with Gentiles period). How is it, then, that you force (believing) Gentiles to follow Jewish customs (which require that Gentiles become first converted to Judaism before they can have fellowship with other Jews, which would also have them force their Gentile friends and family to follow suit too, in spite of what we all share as our identity as believers immersed in the identity of Messiah)?

15″We (, me and you Peter, apostles of the Way,) who are Jews by birth and not (counted as) ‘Gentile sinners’ by (greater Judaism because of our identity as Jews) 16know (without a doubt) that a man (Jew or Gentile) is not deserving of eternal life by observing the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), but by trusting obedience in Messiah Yeshua. So we, too, (as a result of what we know of the way to eternal life, and know without doubt) have put our trusting obedience in (identifying with) Messiah Yeshua that we may be deserving of eternal life by our trusting obedience in Messiah and not by observing the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), because no one will be deserving of eternal life by observing the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish, since Jewish identity through birth or conversion isn’t what merits us to eternal life).

17″If, while we seek to be deserving of eternal life (by identifying ourselves) in Messiah, it becomes evident that we ourselves are (in fact) sinners (who still sin), does that mean that Messiah (, who we are identified in,) promotes sin? Absolutely not! (Yet, by promoting that we should not fellowship with so-called “Gentile sinners,” before they take on Jewish identity through Jewish conversion, even if they, like us, are believers identified in Messiah Yeshua; by our rejection of them as “sinners,” we therefore make out the Messiah both they and we identify with, to in fact promote sin, since we count them as “Gentile sinners!” To make my point clear: ) 18If I rebuild (my sinful nature, which was a slave to the world, but was) what I destroyed (by coming to a trusting obedience to Messiah Yeshuah, by immersing in his identity), I prove that I am a Torah-breaker (for I simply rebuilt what I was before: a Torah-breaker). 19(We know this would be so if I did so,) for through the Torah I (, my sinful, Torah-breaking nature,) died to the Torah so that I might live (in the identity of Messiah Yeshua, who himself is the perfect Torah-keeper,) for G-d. 20I (, my sinful, Torah-breaking nature,) have been crucified with Messiah and I(, my sinful, Torah-breaking nature,) no longer live, but Messiah (the perfect Torah-keeper) lives in me(, as well as the Gentiles). The life I live (now, as a result,) in the body, I live by a trusting obedience in the Son of G-d, who loved me and gave himself for me (even though I didn’t deserve it). 21I do not set aside the unmerited favor of G-d, for if (the) righteousness (that merits to eternal life) could be gained through the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), Messiah died for nothing (for his death would have not been for our merit, which we would already have had through being born Jewish, or converted to Jewish identity)!”

Galatians 3

1You foolish Galatians (who I have heard you have been duped by this false way to eternal life)! Who (in the congregation) has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Messiah Yeshua was clearly portrayed (by me and other witnesses) as crucified. 2(If you don’t respond to anything I’ve written thus far,) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), or by believing what you heard (me and others teach you concerning Messiah Yeshua)? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning (your way to eternal life) with the Spirit (as Gentiles first having faith in Messiah Yeshua), are you now trying to attain your goal (of eternal life) by human effort (through Jewish conversion)? 4Have you suffered so much (persecution as followers of the way to eternal life) for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does G-d give you his Spirit and work miracles among you (thus confirming you have eternal life) because you observe the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity), or because you believe what you heard (concerning Messiah Yeshua and the way to eternal life he offers through being identified in him)?

6(To make my point clear to you: ) Consider Abraham: “He believed G-d (as you do), and it was credited to him as righteousness (, the very righteousness which merits to eternal life, which you seek to gain by being converted to Jewish identity).” 7Understand, then, that those who believe (like Abraham) are children of Abraham (thus giving you an identity as his descendants). 8The Scripture foresaw that G-d would have the Gentiles deserve eternal life by (such) a trusting obedience (as Abraham had), and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9So those who have a trusting obedience (in Messiah) are blessed along with Abraham, the man of trusting obedience.

10All who rely on observing the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish,) are (still) under a curse (by the Torah), for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (As mentioned above, they continue to identify as Torah-breakers, because they have rejected, and chosen not identify in Messiah Yeshua for eternal life.) 11Clearly no one is deserving of eternal life before G-d by the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), because, “The righteous will live by a trusting obedience.” 12The Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish) is not based on a trusting obedience; on the contrary, “The man who keeps the Torah (which includes a conversion to Jewish identity) will live in accordance to the Torah (because he already has eternal life!).” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Torah by becoming a curse (of the Torah) for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14He made an exchange for us (from the curse of the Torah) in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Messiah Yeshua, so that by our trusting obedience we might receive the promise of the Spirit (which you obviously received by such means).

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case (concerning the giving of the Torah which contains the instructions for Jewish conversion – it does not, and should not nullify the covenant of the promised Spirit to Abraham which was given before the Torah was written). 16The promises (of the Land, the Spirit, and eternal life) were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Messiah (since it refers back to the promised “Seed” given as a promise to Eve). 17What I mean is this: The Torah, (the covenant) introduced 430 years (after the promises given to Abraham), does not set aside the covenant previously established by G-d (to Abraham) and thus do away with the promise (of the “seed” and the “blessing” of eternal life which follows, which G-d gave to Abraham). 18For if the inheritance (of the promise of the “seed” and the “blessing” of eternal life which follows, which G-d gave to Abraham) depends on the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), then it (eternal life, which is your goal) no longer depends on a promise (which came before the giving of the Torah at Sinai); but G-d in his unmerited favor gave it to Abraham through a promise (that came before the giving of the Torah at Sinai).

19(If the promise of eternal life was given before the giving of the Torah at Sinai) what, then, was the purpose of the Torah (which includes instructions in conversion to Jewish identity, or defines being born Jewish) (towards those after the promise of eternal life was given to Abraham)? It was added (after the promise of eternal life) because of transgressions (which are accounted to those who will not receive the promise of eternal life) until the Seed to whom the promise (to Abraham) referred had come(to them who repent and finally receive the promise of eternal life by the “Seed” who himself came through the identity of the Jewish people). The Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish) was put into effect through angels by a mediator (Moses). 20A mediator, (like Moses, who in this case is Messiah) however, does not represent just one party (who is G-d, for Messiah also represents us); but G-d is one.

21Is the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish), therefore, opposed to the promises of G-d (given to Abraham such as the Land, the Seed, and eternal life)? Absolutely not (in any way shape or form)! For if a Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish) had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish). 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin (not just “Gentile sinners”), so that what was promised (to Abraham, which is the promise of eternal life), being given through a trusting obedience in (identifying in) Messiah Yeshua (whose righteousness we identify with as our merit to eternal life), might be given to those who believe.

23Before this trusting obedience came, we (all of us who now believe in Messiah Yeshua) were held prisoners by the Torah (which includes instructions in conversion to Jewish identity, or defines being born Jewish), locked up (, our fate sealed to an eternal condemnation by the curse contained in the Torah) until a trusting obedience (to Messiah Yeshua) should be revealed (in us). 24So the Torah (which includes instructions in conversion to Jewish identity, or defines being born Jewish) was put in charge to lead us to (the) Messiah (which the Torah reveals to us) that we might be deserving of eternal life by a trusting obedience (in Messiah). 25Now that a trusting obedience has come (to us who believe), we (who believe in Messiah Yeshua) are no longer under the supervision of (condemnation by the curse of) the Torah (which includes instructions in conversion to Jewish identity, or defines being born Jewish) (, for you have been brought by the Torah, to Messiah, who is the goal of the Torah for all who believe).

26You are (therefore) all sons of G-d (, just as Yeshua is the Son of G-d,) through (your) trusting obedience in Messiah Yeshua, 27for all of you who were immersed into Messiah have clothed yourselves with Messiah (and that is all who we should see when we come together in fellowship with one another). 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Messiah Yeshua(, taking on, and clothing yourselves in his identity). 29If you belong to Messiah, then you are Abraham’s seed (since Messiah is Abraham’s seed), and heirs (to the Land, to the Seed, and to eternal life) according to the promise (of the promised “Seed,” the Messiah, that G-d promised Abraham).

Galatians 4

1What I am saying is that as long as the heir (you who are in Messiah) is a child (for you are considered as children, not deserving anything, when you do not have Messiah), he is no different from a slave (like the rest of the world is a slave to the world), although he owns the whole estate (since he is in fact destined to receive eternal life). 2He (, the child-when you did not have Messiah-) is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father(, who is G-d). 3So also, when we were children (destined to receive eternal life, but not knowing the Messiah), we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world(, subject to the desires of our flesh and condemned by the Torah as a result since we had no other identity except ourselves and our own merit). 4But when the time had fully come (when we first believed in Messiah), G-d sent his Son, born of a woman (and not of Adam), born under (the curse of the) Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity or being born Jewish) (since as a Jew, and as the Messiah, he is therefore expected to keep it perfectly and have no sin, and does so for our sake), 5to redeem those (also) under (the curse of the) Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish) (wherein which we do fail by not keeping it perfectly, and are thus cursed if we cling to our identity in the sinful nature in order to merit eternal life), that we might receive the full rights of sons (because we have clothed ourselves in his identity: that of a perfectly Torah-observant Jewish man who is also the Son of G-d). 6Because you are sons (because of Yeshua’s identity as G-d’s Son), G-d sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts (as evidenced by what we saw in you when we preached this way to eternal life to you), the (same) Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7So you are no longer a slave (nor a child who is no different than a slave, subject to the curse of the Torah), but a son (because Yeshua is the Son of G-d, and we have his identity); and since you are a son, G-d has made you also an heir (to eternal life, just as Yeshua is the first of all of us who identity with him, to rise to eternal life).

8Formerly, when you did not know G-d, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know G-d—or rather are known by G-d (by his unmerited favor upon you to know Messiah Yeshua)—how is it that you are turning back to (those who by nature are not gods, your sinful nature, the world, which are) those weak and miserable principles (which demand you identify with the world instead of Messiah)? Do you wish to be enslaved by those who are not gods(, your fleshly desires, and the condemnation that goes with it,) all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! (Great! You should be doing those things! But) 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you (since it seems you are so easily duped into accepting a conversion to Jewish identity as a means to meriting eternal life. It is only through our identity in Messiah Yeshua that we have eternal life, and not by this false teaching that eternal life is gained by converting to a Jewish identity, or being born Jewish!)

12I plead with you, brothers, become like me (who gave up my hope in my Jewish identity for eternal life, and instead accepted Messiah Yeshua’s identity as my hope for eternal life), for I became like you(, you who were humbled too, and realized that you can only cling to identity in Messiah Yeshua for the hope of eternal life). You have done me no wrong(, only wrong to yourselves if you go through with a conversion to Jewish identity as your hope for eternal life). 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the way to eternal life to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn (as some of you are now being led to do so by those promoting this false teaching). Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of G-d, as if I were Messiah Yeshua himself(, which is the point I am making that that is how we should see one another). 15What has happened to all your joy (and the freedom of fellowship that you had with one another)? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you (Gentiles) would have torn out your eyes and given them to me (a Jew). 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17Those people (who are pushing the package deal of conversion-to-Jewish-identity-for-sake-of-eternal-life line) are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us (who are preaching the message of the way to eternal life for you, through Messiah Yeshua), so that you may be zealous for them (and their teachings, which on top of alienating you from eternal life, also include the teaching to alienate yourselves as converted Jews from any and all Gentiles, no matter if they are fellow believers in Messiah). 18It is fine to be zealous(, for we too are zealous of these things such as keeping the Torah out of love for Messiah and others, and converting to a Jewish identity), provided the purpose is good, and (I desire) to (see you) be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again (due to this false teaching) in the pains of childbirth until Messiah is formed in you (as your lone hope and identity for meriting eternal life), 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone (with which I have been writing this letter in), because I am perplexed about you (and don’t know why you have been duped by this teaching concerning conversion to Jewish identity for the purpose of gaining eternal life)!

21Tell me, you who want to be under (the curse of the) Torah, (and return to your former state of Torah-breakers without hope,) are you not aware of what the Torah says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way (through the act of man); but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise (which G-d gave to him).

24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai (representing the result of breaking the covenant, which is the curse of the Torah) and bears children who are to be slaves (to sin): This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem (which continues to break the covenant and is still without hope for eternal life since it chooses not to place its hope for eternal life in the identity of the Messiah, but rather in itself), because she is (still) in slavery (to the sinful nature) with her children (who like all children of slaves, are destined to be slaves, in this case, they are slaves to the curse of the Torah until Messiah is formed in them). 26But the (other covenant is also from Mount Sinai representing the result of the One, the Messiah, who keeps the covenant perfectly, and merits eternal life, and bears children who are to be free of the curse of the Torah. This is Sarah. Now Sarah stands for the promise given to Abraham that came before the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai and corresponds to the future city of) Jerusalem that is above (and) is free (from the condemnation of the curse of the Torah which is the current condition of the present city of Jerusalem), and she(, Sarah, the Jerusalem that is above,) is our mother (and is who we also identify with if we in fact identify with the Messiah who keeps the Torah perfectly and by whose merit we have eternal life). 27For it is written:
“Be glad, O barren woman (Sarah),
who bears no children (in a natural way, but instead relies on a promise);
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman (Sarah)
than of her (Hagar) who has a husband (who gives birth to slave children through Hagar. Sarah has more children because her identity blesses all nations with eternal life, whereas Hagar has less children because her identity curses those who choose to identify with her reliance on her own identity for meriting eternal life, which is the identity of a slave to sin, and the identity of one condemned under the curse of the Torah, even though Abraham, of whom the promise came, and later the Torah was added to for the purpose of revealing who his “Seed,” is, is the husband of both Sarah and Hagar, and thus the father of both sons from each woman.)

28Now you, brothers (believing Gentiles), like Isaac, are children of promise (and thus like Isaac, are identified with him, because you have identified with Messiah Yeshua). 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way (those who place their hope for eternal life in conversion to Jewish identity, or being born Jewish) persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit (those who place their hope for eternal life in Yeshua’s identity). It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” (For those who rely on their Jewish identity in order to merit righteousness to eternal life, and therefore do not rely on the identity of Messiah Yeshua whose righteousness merits to eternal life, will themselves not inherit eternal life.) 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman (whose children are condemned by the curse of the Torah, because they place their hope for eternal life in their own Jewish identity which does nothing to change their charge by the Torah to them as those who are Torah-breakers), but of the free woman (whose children are free from the curse of the Torah because we have placed our hope for eternal life in the identity of Messiah Yeshua, the perfect Jewish Torah-keeper whose merit extends to us and by whom we are declared as righteous, and thus deserving of the inheritance of the blessing of eternal life).

Galatians 5

1It is for freedom (from our sinful natures, and the curse of the Torah) that Messiah has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again (as you were before you Gentiles were believers in Messiah) by a yoke of slavery (to your old sinful natures and thus fall under the curse of the Torah).

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be converted to a Jewish identity (for the purpose of meriting eternal life by that identity), Messiah will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be converted to a Jewish identity (for the purpose of meriting eternal life by that identity) that he is obligated to obey the whole Torah (of conversion to a Jewish identity, or those born Jewish and who rely on that identity as their hope for eternal life, rather than in the identity of the Messiah,) (which also identifies such a man as one who has rebuilt what he destroyed when he first came to Messiah, and is thus then serving the sinful nature of the old condemned man who is under the curse of the Torah; and who then is required that he also alienate himself from all Gentiles, including Gentiles who believe in Messiah Yeshua). 4You who are trying to deserve eternal life by Torah (of conversion to Jewish identity, or born Jewish) have been alienated from Messiah; you have fallen away from unmerited favor (and have embraced the lie that your own identity as a Jew is your merit for righteousness that leads to eternal life). 5But by a trusting obedience we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we (as those identified in Messiah Yeshua) hope. 6For in (the identity of) Messiah Yeshua neither Jewish identity nor Gentile identity has any value. The only thing that counts (towards eternal life) is a trusting obedience expressing itself through love (as described by the Torah which contains instructions in conversion to Jewish identity, and being born Jewish).

7You were running a good race (towards eternal life). Who cut in on you (towards that goal of eternal life by presenting you a false way to eternal life through Jewish identity) and (thus) kept you from obeying the truth (of the way to eternal life as being identified in Messiah Yeshua)? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the One (G-d) who calls you. 9″A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” (This single lie has worked its way through the entire congregation!) 10I am (sadly) confident in the Lord that you will take no other view (than to go through with Jewish conversion for the sake of meriting eternal life). The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty (of breaking Torah), whoever he may be (among you). 11Brothers, if I am still preaching conversion to Jewish identity as the way to eternal life, why am I still being persecuted? In that case (if the way to eternal life is through Jewish identity, then) the offense of the cross (which offends the sinful, natural self,) has been abolished(, and made of no effect in condemning all of us Torah-breakers, since it would have no effect in setting us free from the curse of the Torah, which is death). 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves (for then at least as eunuchs they wouldn’t be able to draw near to the service of the Temple, and perhaps be forced to realize that their work for a new identity for the purpose of meriting eternal life, didn’t give them anything at all in regards to actually getting closer to redemption, let alone to eternal life)!

13You, my brothers, were called (by G-d) to be free. But do not use your freedom (from the curse of the Torah) to indulge the sinful nature (which you have put to death by taking on the identity of Messiah as your clothing); rather, serve one another in love (as Messiah Yeshua, the perfect Torah-keeper lives through you). 14(In fact,) the entire Torah is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (There is not a single commandment that is not an act of loving your neighbor as yourself.) 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other (by submitting to your sinful natures), watch out or you will be destroyed by each other (and be duped into forsaking the Messiah, such as you have been over this false way to eternal life through Jewish identity, being promoted by someone among you).

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature (and fall to the temptation to take on Jewish identity for the purpose of meriting eternal life). 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want (but are forced to serve one or the other). 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under (the curse of the) Torah.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of G-d(, for this is the result of following the sinful nature, which some of you want to do when you give up believing that your identity in Messiah Yeshua is what merits you to eternal life, and believe instead that Jewish identity is what merits you to eternal life).

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no Torah. 24Those who belong to Messiah Yeshua have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since (our sinful natures are dead and) we (thus) live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit (and not follow after our sinful natures who are at odds with the way to eternal life through identity in Messiah Yeshua). 26Let us not become conceited (by claiming we are Jewish with a pedigree to boast of,), provoking (one another to jealousy to be Jewish as we) and envying each other(, when some haven’t converted to Jewish identity yet, when in fact, it is Messiah Yeshua that we should see as our most important identity, and to see him in everyone of us who are believers in Messiah, as by that alone should we have reason to relate to one another).

Galatians 6

1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens (of keeping the Torah), and in this way you will fulfill the Torah of Messiah (whose burden is truly light). 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, (if anyone thinks he has merited righteousness that leads to eternal life because he’s Jewish, when he hasn’t merited anything from his sinful nature that can rightly be called righteousness at all) he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions (according to the Torah, and to the fruits of the Spirit I mentioned above). Then he can take pride in himself (in his trusting obedient identity in Messiah Yeshua), without comparing himself to somebody else (who also is identified in Messiah Yeshua), 5for each one should carry his own load (of keeping the Torah, not being conceited, since our load is already carried by Messiah Yeshua).

6Anyone who receives instruction in the word (that he is currently studying) must share all good things with his instructor (which helps keep him accountable, and from going astray).

7Do not be deceived (and be not duped into the alternate way to eternal life proposed by those promoting Jewish conversion for that purpose): G-d cannot be mocked (into accepting one’s merit to eternal life based on their Jewish identity alone). A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature (by converting to Jewish identity for the purpose of using that as merit to obtain eternal life), from that (sinful) nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit (by a trusting obedience to Messiah Yeshua’s identity to merit them to eternal life), from the Spirit (who gives life) will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good (works as defined by the Torah), for at the proper time we will reap a harvest (in the World to Come) if we do not give up (and fall prey to heresies that remove us from a trusting obedience in Messiah Yeshua). 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers(, and not reject any fellowship with them because they are considered “Gentile sinners”).

11See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!

12Those who want to make a good impression (to greater Judaism) outwardly(, for their own egos and deceived sinful natures) are trying to compel you to go through Jewish conversion for the purpose of meriting eternal life. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Messiah (which is an offense to those placing their hope of eternal life in the merit of their Jewish identity alone). 13(Let me reiterate: ) Not even those who are Jewish obey the Torah, yet they want you to be made Jewish through conversion for the purpose of meriting eternal life (so) that they may boast about your flesh(, in order to feel justified in their teaching). 14May I never (need to) boast (about anyone to justify what I believe) except (boast) in the cross of our Master, Messiah Yeshua, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither Jewish identity nor non-Jewish identity means anything (when it comes to deserving eternal life); what counts is a new creation (born about by the Spirit, through a trusting obedience in Messiah Yeshua and his merit which through the promise G-d made to Abraham, merits you to the blessing of eternal life). 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of G-d.

17Finally, let no one cause me trouble (because of this letter, saying I do not know what I am talking about), for I bear on my body the marks (of persecution) of (which) Yeshua (said those who follow him would also bear as he).

18The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

[Bryce Henderson]

I thought that I would reply to tell you why I don't accept your ideas concerning the term "Christian".

First, I think you've got your facts wrong. Where do we find James using the term? The term is used in Acts 11:26; 26:28; and 1 Peter 4:16. I cannot identify James using the term in any of those verses.

Act 11:20 But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who came to Antioch and began speaking to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus.
Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a large number who believed turned to the Lord.
Act 11:22 The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.
Act 11:23 Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord;
Act 11:24 for he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And considerable numbers were brought to the Lord.
Act 11:25 And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul;

Act 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Please, carefully read the context. There is nothing to suggest that the term is a negative one. It makes sense for people to think of us as "Christians" or "of Christ" if we're one of His followers, for that is what we are. This is what people call us when using a Greek approach, but that is not insulting or wrong.

What about the next time? I see nothing negative about the term "Christian". Agrippa seems to respect Paul and the Christian message, so why would he use an insulting term when speaking with him? Further, Paul doesn't seem in any way insulted by Agrippa's use of the term "Christian".

Act 26:28 Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian."
Act 26:29 And Paul said, " I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."

Finally, Peter outright says that we're Christians.

1Pe 4:14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

1Pe 4:15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;
1Pe 4:16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?    

I personally don't identify as a Christian unless someone asks me if I'm "Christian" or people say that the term as wrong. I prefer to identify myself as part of "the Way", as that is how we identify ourselves every single time in Scripture save 1 Peter 4:16 where we're called "Christians" by Peter.

[YAS2015]

And I am not selling my ideas aboout scripture concerning the term "Christian." I am looking at scripture through the lense of a Jew and NOT a Goy. I do not go by what a Goy Theologian says is scripture since it is reasonable to assume that they look at scripture through the lense of a Goy and NOT a Jew...there are VERY rare expections as I am personally very aware of a few (There is a Chassidic Goy Theologian in Chicago that goes by the name Dr. Robert Tippie); however, the majority of Goy Theologians could care less how a Jew would look at scripture which is where the whole problem lies.

 

Also, since the Nicean Council beleives that ALL Netzarim are "Heretics," is it reasonable to assume that the Nicean Council would consider the Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi from Nazereth and His Talmidim to be "heretics" as well since they are also Netzarim? I do not see how else that they can interpret as such since the Netzarim of today have the same beliefs as those in 325 c.e. as well as those Netzarim living in Eretz Yisrael before 70 c.e. The Ketuvim Netzarim was written before the Army encamped around Jerusalem because the destruction of the Temple would have be written about with the exception of Revelations.

 

If you serve a Jew (and I do not doubt your sincerity), why not attempt to interpret scripture through the lense of a Jew. Also, you might want to read the Aramaic Peshitta as it is MUCH more accurate than the Latin Vulgate, KJV, or any other Greek version since ALL of the Ketuvim Netzarim was written in Hebrew/Aramaic and NOT Greek.

 

Regards,

Yacov

[Bryce Henderson]

All the original manuscripts are Aramaic? The Apostle Paul wrote to the congregation in Rome using Aramaic? Prove it.

[YAS2015]

Bryce,

 

It seems that you have your facts incorrect and it is obvious to me that you are using the Greek versions or Latin Vulgate for your interpretations. That is where the problem lies brother. You accept what has been altered instead of what has not been altered. You also have to know Jewish History which I doubt that you do since most gentiles would not find the learning of history to include "church history" necessarry. I am not aware of any Chrisitan Semenaries that teach church history unless it has been altered to fit there interpretation.

 

 

I use the Aramaic Peshitta. You might want to give it a try sometime. It takes out ALL of the Anti-Semitism of the Greek Translations. I also use the Essenic scrolls to verify interpretation of scripture since it is obvious to me that the 2nd Temple Period Netzarim learned and practiced and quoted from what we know today as the Mystical Books, Enoch, all of the Apocrapha, and 1 - 4 Maccabees.

 

FYI - In Antioch, the gentiles were called Messianic. No Jew has EVER been called Messianic until the past century and then only after we took the Temple Mount.

[YAS2015]

Yes, but wait for my reply.

[YAS2015]

[Bryce Henderson]

You said,

"The term Christian is used 3 times in the Ketuvim Netzarim. Once by Rabbi Yaakov the brother of Yeshua"

Where is James doing that?

DO NOT make assumptions about me. DO NOT post your assumptions in this email list. If you want to have discussions with me then stick to the facts and don't make assumptions about me.

[YAS2015]

Even those who have argued for a Semitic origin for significant portions of the so called "New Testament" have rarely ventured to challenge the Greek origin of the Pauline Epistles.

For example David Stern, in his Jewish New Testament/Complete Jewish Bible (which is translated from the Greek), admits that:

…there is good reason to think that several of the books of the New Testament either were written in Hebrew or Aramaic, or drew upon source materials in those languages...
(CJB p. xxxi)

But Stern then goes on to say:

Sha'ul (Paul) whose letters were composed in Greek, clearly drew on his native Jewish and Hebraic thought-forms when he wrote.
(ibid).


What was the original language of the Pauline Epistles? While many have asserted that Paul’s letters were first written in Greek, a few scholars have recognized that this is clearly not the case, and that the Pauline Epistles were in fact written in Hebrew and/or Aramaic.

One such scholar is Daniel L. McConaughy, who in 1985 discovered a previously lost page of the Old Syriac Curetonian ms. of the Gospels (“A Recently Discovered Folio of the Old Syriac (Sy(c)) Text of Luke 16,13-17,1”; Biblica Vol. 68- Fasc. 1- 1987; pp. 85-90). McConaughy holds a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago, where he specialized in Syriac, Greek and early Church history. He has been published in at least two academic journals (The cite above and “An Old Syriac Reading of Acts 1:4 and More Light on Jesus’ Last Meal before His Ascension”; Oriens Christianus; Band 72 1988; pp. 63-67).

Dr. McConaughy stated in a 1985 paper:

“We can clearly see concerning the Apostle Paul's life (about which we know the most)
that he would have written in Aramaic.”
(Daniel L. McConaughy Ph.D.; "The Aramaic Origin of the New Testament," The Way
Magazine (May-June 1985 p. 19))

Another such scholar is Karen Tourne' Masterson. Masterson has a Ph.D. from UCLA in Near Eastern Languages (Phi Beta Kappa, Summa Cum Laude graduate). She concluded in a 1983 paper (written before she earned her Ph. D.):

“The evidence from God's Word causes us to take issue with the tradition which contends
that Paul wrote in Greek. Knowing that Aramaic was his native tongue should prompt us
to consider the language of an Aramaic original which lies behind the Greek and other
versions to which we have access today.”
(Karen Masterson; "An Aramaic Approach to the Church Epistles," The Way Magazine
(March-April 1984 p. 20))

In fact Dr. Masterson’s paper is a primary source for this paper.

Paul has been widely labeled a "Hellenistic Jew by most commentaries and other books on Paul. His native language is generally represented as being "Greek". He is widely portrayed as thinking in terms of Greek culture and Greek ideas. In this way they seek to class Paul with the first century Hellenist Jew Philo. Just as Philo sought to use Greek Philosophy in order to explain Judaism, they teach that Paul sought to explain the teachings of Yeshua in terms of Greek thought for the audience outside Judea.

The common wisdom has been that Paul was raised in Tarsus, a great center of Greek culture and thought. As a result they maintain that Paul wrote in Greek, and used the Greek Septuagint when quoting the so-called “Old Testament”.

The Scriptures, however, directly conflict with this picture of Paul as a Hellenist Jew raised in Tarsus, immersed in Greek language and culture. If we account for Paul’s true cultural and historical background we will plainly see that Paul’s life and his writings were rooted in Hebrew and Aramaic. Nearly ALL of the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis living outside Israel would read and write in Hebrew/Aramaic especially considerin gthat they would be writing to fellow Jews.

To begin with we must seek to understand some of the terms used in the Second Temple era to describe Jews of this period. It is important to understand the different meanings of these terms.

In Acts Chapter six we read of a conflict that arose between “Hellenists” and “Hebrews”:

And in those same days, as the talmidim multiplied,
the Hellenist talmidim were murmuring against the Hebrews,
that their widows were neglected in the daily service.
(Acts 6:1)

Note here that there is a contrast between “Hellenists” and “Hebrews”. Hellenists, as we said before, were culturally Greek and spoke Greek. They were centered in Alexandria Egypt and their primary representative was Philo, who himself stated that he did not know Hebrew. Hellenists used the Septuagint sought to cast Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy. They endeavored “to accommodate Jewish doctrines to the minds of the Greeks, and to make the Greek language express the mind of the Jews”
(W.J. Conybeare and J.S. Howson. The Life and Epistles of St. Paul (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980), p. 30)

From Acts 6:1 we can see that “Hebrews” were not “Hellenists” and “Hellenists” were not “Hebrews”. Hebrews in context were non-Hellenists. Hebrews spoke Hebrew rather than Greek, used the original Hebrew and Aramaic Tanak (“Old Testament”) and actually rejected Hellenism as revolting. A saying among the Hebrews was “Cursed be he who teaches his son the learning of the Greeks.” (The Life and Epistles, p. 30; Conybeare and Howson.)

The Hebrews regarded Greek as a language rooted in paganism. It was the language and culture of Antiochus Epiphanies who sought to force Greek culture, language and Paganism upon the Jews, and was defeated by the Maccabees (Ibid p. 21). The Jewish victory over Hellenism came to be celebrated as the Jewish festival of Channukah, the Feast of the Dedication, which Yeshua himself came to the Temple to observe (John 10:22).

The Hebrews spoke Hebrew and Aramaic and studied the original Hebrew Scriptures as well as the Aramaic Targums (Aramaic paraphrases) and perhaps the Peshitta Tanak (A literal Aramaic translation). The Hellenists, by contrast, used the Greek Septuagint. From Philo’s writings they appear to have accepted every word of this Greek version as inspired. By contrast, the Hebrews said that when the Torah was rendered in Greek “Darkness came upon the world for three days” (F.J. Foakes-Jackson, The Biblical History of the Hebrews in the Christian Era (New York: George H. Doran Co., 1922), p. 385) and “the day was a hard day for Israel, like as when Israel made the Golden calf.” (Ibid pp. 385-386)

The early Jewish believers in Messiah were not immune to this division. The Hellenist talmidim were murmuring against the Hebrews” alleging “their widows were neglected” (Acts 6:1). No doubt this distrust was fueled by sharp divisions between the “Hellenists” and the “Hebrews”. Understanding Paul necessitates understanding the difference between these two groups of Jews.

The common wisdom is that Paul was raised as a child in Tarsus, where the young Paul was infused with Greek culture, and grew up with Greek as his native tongue. For example one writer said:

The environment in which a man spends the most impressionable years of his life leaves an indelible mark upon his character. It is therefore highly important that we should get a true estimate of the influence of Tarsus in the making of St. Paul.
(T. Wilson, St. Paul and Paganism, quoted in W. C. Van Unnik, Sparsa Collecta. The Collected Essays of W. C. Van Unnik, Part One, Supplements to Nouvum Testamentum. Vol. 29 (Leiden, E,J. Brill. 1973), p. 263)

And another writes:

Now certainly, in its proper and technical sense, the word “Hebrew” is the direct opposite of “Hellenist,” and St. Paul, if brought up at Tarsus, could only strictly be regarded as a Jew of the Dispersion—a Jew of that vast body who, even when they were not ignorant of Hebrew—as even the most learned of them sometimes were—still spoke Greek as their native tongue. It may, of course, be said that St. Paul uses the word Hebrew only in its general sense, and that he meant to imply by it that he was not a Hellenist to the same extent that, for instance… Philo was… St. Paul might call himself a Hebrew, though technically speaking he was a Hellenist…
(F.W. Farrar, The Life and Work of St. Paul, 2 vols. (London: Casswell, Petter, Galpin and Co., 1879), 1:16)

But what do the Scriptures tell us, was Paul a Hellenist?

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
(2Cor. 11:22 KJV)

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
(Phil. 3:5 KJV)

The term “Hebrew of Hebrews” is an idiomatic expression in both Hebrew and Aramaic which have no superlative. This is an idiom in which “a noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree.” (E.W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (1898; p. 283)) Paul tells us in inspired Scripture, that he is the greatest degree of Hebrew, the greatest degree of non-Hellenist. Yet many interpreters maintain that Paul was wrong, that the Scripture itself is wrong, and that Paul was himself actually a Hellenist.

Again Scripture says:

Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
(Acts 23:6b KJV)

The Peshitta Aramaic and some Greek mss. have “son of Pharisees” here, rather than “the son of a Pharisee”. This would mean that he was a third generation Pharisee. (Farrar, The Life and Work, 1:4 note 3.)

Again the Scriptures say:

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
(Acts 26:14a KJV)

This Scripture records an event in which Paul receives his commissioning as an emissary. And what language does YHWH choose in which to communicate this calling? Hebrew. If Paul was a Greek speaking Hellenist called to bring the message to a Greek speaking world, why not reveal this to him in his own native language. Why would the Scriptures even mention Hebrew here? What would be its significance?

Acts 22:2-3 gives us the clearest account of the upbringing of Paul:

(And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
(Acts 22:2-3 KJV)

Some interpreters have taken “brought up” to indicate only Paul’s learning and tutelage and not to his actual upbringing, which they would like to place in at Tarsus. These take “brought up” and “taught” as an example of the idiom of hendiadys, expressing the same idea with two phrases.

It has been suggested that this verse has been incorrectly rendered based upon a false understanding of the Greek word behind “brought up” in combination with an incorrect punctuation of the phrase.

The words “brought up” in the Greek are the single word anatrepho, which means “to bring up, nurse, cherish, educate.” The root trepho means “to make firm, thick or solid, hence, to… fatten, nourish,… make to grow.” (E. W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, (1877) s.v. anatrepho and trepho.)

In Acts 7:20-21 we see this word anatrepho appearing twice:

In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up [anatrepho] in his father's house three months:
And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished [anatrepho] him for her own son.
(Acts 7:20-21 KJV)

Moreover we read in Luke:

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up [tarephamenos]: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
(Luke 4:16 KJV)

(Several important mss. (ALEF, L, W, f13) Read anatarephamenos in this verse.)

Acts 22:3 in the Greek presents us with three verbs, all in the nominative perfect passive participle form:

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born (gegennemenos) in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up (anatethrammenos) in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught (pepaideumenos) according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
(Acts 22:3 KJV)

When we compare with Acts 7:20-22 we find the same sequence and the same words (though in a different form):

In which time Moses was born (gennao), and was exceeding fair, and nourished up (anatrepho) in his father's house three months:
And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished (anatrepho) him for her own son.
And Moses was learned (paideuo) in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
(Acts 7:20-22 KJV)

In his article entitled “Tarsus or Jerusalem,” W.C. Van Unnik, shown conclusively that these three words are a “fixed literary unit” (Van Unnik, Sparsa Collecta, p. 287.)

The interpretation of this verse (Acts 22:3) is impacted greatly by where the comma is placed in the verse. This comma governs whether “at the feet of Gamaliel” belongs with “brought up” or “taught”. Van Unnik has shown that the term “at the feet of Gamaliel” must belong with “taught”. He writes:

In this context anatethrammenos can refer only to Paul’s upbringing in the home of his parents from the earliest years of his childhood until he was of school age; pepaideumenos refers to the instruction which he received in accordance with the Eastern custom “at the feet of” Gamaliel.

This of itself solves the problem about the punctuation. Greek readers, who knew the significance of anatrepho in such a context would of course have regarded it as quite foolish to connect “at the feet of Gamaliel” with that word. This is not undone by any considerations about the rhythm of the sentence. The name Gamaliel in its third member has probably been brought forward in order that full emphasis may fall upon it at once….

From the contrast between Tarsus as the place of birth and Jerusalem as the city of the anastrophe (upbringing in the home circle) and the paideia (study under Gamaliel), it is clear that according to this text Paul spent the years of his youth completely in Jerusalem.
(Ibid pp. 295-296)

Van Unnik has suggested a literal translation of the passage as follows:

I am a Judean, born at Tarsus in Cilicia, but my parental home, where I received my early upbringing, was in this city [Jerusalem]; and under Gamaliel, a person well-known to you, I have received a strict training as a Pharisee, so that I was a zealot for God’s cause as you all are this day.
(Ibid p. 296)

It remains to be stated that further support for this understanding can be found elsewhere Acts (26:4-5).

My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
(Acts 26:4-5 KJV)

Paul makes it clear hear that he spent his life from his youth in Jerusalem in a Pharisaic upbringing, not being brought up with a Hellenistic upbringing in Tarsus.

Regardless of these facts Conybeare and Howson wrongly conclude:

…St. Paul himself must be called a Hellenist; because the language of his infancy was that idiom of the Grecian Jews in which all his letters were written. Though, in conformity with the strong feeling of the Jews of all times, he might learn his earliest sentences from the Scriptures in Hebrew, yet he was familiar with the Septuagint translation at an early age. For it is observed that, when he quotes from the Old Testament, his quotations are from that version; and that, not only when he cites its very words, but when (as is often the case) he quotes it from memory…
(Conybeare and Howson, The Life and Epistles, pp. 32-33)

They however qualify this statement saying “the family of St. Paul, though Hellenistic in speech, were no Hellenizers in theology.” (ibid p. 33)

Who was this Gamaliel that Acts tells us Paul was taught by? He was the grandson of Hillel, Nasi (President) of the Pharisaic Sanhedrin and the head of the school of Hillel. He was so well respected that the Mishna states that upon his death "the glory of the Torah ceased, and purity and modesty died." (m.Sotah 9:15). Paul would not have learned Greek at the time, because at that very time period it was forbidden for a Jew to study Greek. Studying Greek was considered comparable to raising pigs! And while Paul’s teacher Gamaliel had studied Greek, it was only by special permission because, as Nasi of the Pharisaic Sanhedrin, it was needed for him to associate with government officials. This is all recorded in the Talmud:

And no man should teach his sons Greek... they declared,- ‘Cursed be a man who rears pigs and cursed be a man who teaches his son Greek wisdom!’... It was different with the household of Rabban Gamaliel because they had close associations with the Government;... they permitted the household of Rabban Gamaliel to study Greek wisdom because they had close associations with the Government.
(b.Sotah 49b)


The truth of Paul's claim to have studied under Gamliel is witnessed by Paul's constant use of Hillelian Hermeneutics (The Seven Rules of Hillel). It is an unlikely proposition that a Hellenist would have studied under Gamliel at the school of Hillel - then the center of Pharisaic Judaism.

The popular view that Paul write his letters originally in Greek cannot stand the test of the evidence in the Scriptures themselves. Paul’s native languages were Hebrew and Aramaic and we certainly should consider these as the probable original languages of his writings.

 

It is written, "Ask and ye shall receive."

 

Be blessed brother,

Yacov

[Bryce Henderson]

If you're going to do a copy/paste job then please provide the internet link so people don't think that you wrote it yourself. That might cause people to think you're dishonest in passing off the work of others as your own. 

You copied, word for word, what James Trimm wrote at the following link:

http://nazarenespace.com/profiles/blogs/the-aramaic-origin-of-the

[YAS2015]

1) I never claimed (nor would I) it was my work so please stop making false accusations as I was only giving you what you asked for needed to make an informed decision.

2) You asked for the evidence and I gave it to you SO is it reasonable to assume that you care more about making false accusations that investigating the truth?

3) Do you know what an Unbiased investigation is?

4) I am glad that you had a link to where people can go to as I could not find that link. Thank you.
5) I did not copy and paste it word for word, but that goes to show that you are dishonest in your accusations by not even bothering to read what you asked for.

6) Is it reasonable to assume that you could care less about the truth and would rather argue about things have have no relevance to the debate?

7) Be blessed brother in your Greek because it is all Greek to me.

Shalom shalom,

Yacov

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

If you're going to do a copy/paste job then please provide the internet link so people don't think that you wrote it yourself. That might cause people to think you're dishonest in passing off the work of others as your own. 

You copied, word for word, what James Trimm wrote at the following link:

http://nazarenespace.com/profiles/blogs/the-aramaic-origin-of-the

On 2011-05-20, at 11:41 AM, YAS2015 wrote:1

[Bryce Henderson]

It wasn't word for word? Please, show me how it wasn't. If I was mistaken I would certainly apologise for making that claim.

Also, I did not accuse you of being dishonest. I said that people might think you're being dishonest by presenting someone's work and signing your name to it. Shalom.

[firecra...@aol.com]

Bryce, I'm sure there probably are some traditions I keep that are wrong, but I would stop if I knew they were wrong. I am hardly blameless. It's just that as the Spirit reveals truth to me I react and stop doing the things I now believe are wrong. I no longer believe in heaven, the rapture , the trinity, Sunday worship, Christmas, Easter, eating pork and other things the traditional "christian" church teaches. I am not better than anybody. I am just grateful that YHWH is answering my prayers for more truth. Shalom! Roger

[YAS2015]

1) I am not the least bit interested in going tit for tat for stuff that has no biblical value as I have better things to do with my life as

[YAS2015]

Dear Bryce,

 

I made a mistake on the computer again as I did before. Please forgive me.

 

1) If you desire to discuss the biblical issues, I would be more than happy to go tit-for-tat with you and I do not care about who is right or wrong nor who looks good or not as I am only interested in biblical truth.

2) However, I have better things to do with my life that to discuss/argue/debate on computer errors that have no bearing on the discussion at hand.

3) There is a section in the Gospels (I cannot remember where it is right now) that the Nazarenes questioned who was to sit where. The church for the most part has interpreted that as meaning which Disciple was better that the other when in fact they were asking because they did not want to offend. So as to your statement that "someone might think I'm being dishonest by presenting someone else's work as my own, that arguement does not hold weight on the scales if that person knows that errors happen AND that a Netzarim would NEVER do something like that.

4) I refer #3 above to the 'al kiddush Ha-Shem for the Netzarim. Not only is it for the BIG 3 that we would rather commit Martyrdom than violate - Idolatry, Murder or any forbidden sexual practice, but the Netzarim has added one more - lying because of Rabbi Kefa's decree of Hananyah and his Havah.

5) Therefore my brother, before making assumptions that will make the Kingdom, G-d, Moshiach, you and I in a bad way, it is always better to play it safe and assume that someone made a mistake BEFORE making an accusation or anything that could be misconstrued as an accusation.

6) I have some of Rabbi Trimm's teachings saved, but I would NEVER intentionally make out that it was MY WORK when it is done by someone else especially a Rabbi. Yes, that was a 'copy and paste error because his name is still with his teachings and I thought that I copied and pasted ALL from that teaching. Yes, I made a couple of additions, but minor. My intent was to have his name above like it is on ALL of his teachings. In my rush to give YOU THE TRUTH, I forgot to make note of what I added to his teachings and to verify that his name was on top of the teaching. My insert would have made note of my additions which I think were only 2 sentences. If someone were to READ FOR UNDERSTANDING, they should rather easily see 2 completely different writing styles. His and mine. Chalk it up to ADHD bro. It runs in the family as a ben David.

7) So all of this for much about nothing.

8) I do have some of my own work regarding the Kosher Dietary Laws in the Ketuvim Netzarim and a few others that I have yet to publish because Hashem does not want me publishing them yet, but they will be published when He Authorizes and not before. Period. I understand copywrite laws enough to check my jots and tittles before publishing for profit, but a copy and paste error when you were asking for the truth?  

9) FYI - the Aramaic Peshitta is older that the Latin Vulgate or the Greek Translations. Aramaic/Hebrew is also more akin to the writing style of someone and much more obvious for a Pharisee of Pharisees that was also a Covenant Member of the Essenes. I seriously doubt that Raav Shaul would have known much about the Greek since only a select few of the Pharisees would have even bothered with any language outside of Aramaic or Hebrew unless they had other duties such as governmental and the task of doing that job required it. Also, I have a Rabbinical Sabra Jewess friend that is a Semitic Language expert. In her opinion, the language of the day among most Jews would have been Aramaic, however, she does admit that a Pharisee would have known Hebrew and few of them would have known much from any other languages.

[YAS2015]

Roger,

 

I'll add an AMEN! to what you wrote and I would also like to add that I am not perfect either. I have many christian friends who have the right heart. I would never question that as you seem to have the right heart. All of us that are followers of Messiah Yeshua need to remember that in order for me to consider myself a follower of Yeshua, we need to emulate Messiah Yeshua. NONE of us (including me) cannot do that by practicing a religion other than Judaism which is to say for you righteous gentiles doing what Cornelious did and tthat was to accept the Moral Noahide Laws (us Jews have to do that as well before doing any other of the Mitzvot or else we do everything in vain). I have about 45 Mitzvot more than you as a goy (unless you have converted). Roughly have of the 163 mitzvot cannot be done by the Jewish Priests because there is no Temple.

 

Or for those gentiles that beleive that they do not have to follow the law because "Jesus did away with the law), you got 1050 NEW Commandments to follow in the "New Testament" in order for you to be sure that "Jesus" won't say you were "lukewarm or cold" as Yochanon the Revalator wrote. I wish that I could remember the name of the Theologian that found all 1050 New Testament Laws or Commandments. I think that it was a Gentile Theologian, but please do not hold me to that. Does anyone know?

 

Be blessed achi,

Yacov

[avi5207]

This is the King James version:

Gal 4:20-31� I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.� (21)� Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?� (22)� For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.� (23)� But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.� (24)� Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.� (25)� For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.� (26)� But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.� (27)� For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.� (28)� Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.� (29)� But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.� (30)� Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.� (31)� So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

As I understand these verses it is simply Paul explaining that no one can count on their natural earthly birthright to be a sure thing. By natural law Ishmael should be counted as the first born of Abraham as Muslims today claim. Sarah was past the age of childbearing or post menopausal. Sarah obtained a son by promise from God Himself. She heard this promise with her own ears and laughed. For this reason God commanded that this son of promise be named 'laughter' or 'Yitzak'� as it is a memorial name for truly when Sarah became pregnant and bore this son there was much joy and laughter in her. Imagine being denied the one thing that you treasure most in life to have a child. Then in your old age by a miracle of God you bear a son... what great joy and laughter... what redemption from the curse of being barren and without fruit! Yes Sarah by promise of God was redeemed from dying a barren woman. It is clear that Sarah encouraged her husband to father a child by her slave woman Hagar. Hagar had no choice in the matter. Her life, her body was not hers to do with as she pleased as she was doomed to be in bondage and subject to the will of her master/mistress for the rest of her life. We too that are born after the flesh are born slaves to sin. It is in our very nature to rebel against God. We in fact cannot do otherwise. (see Rom. 8) ��� This is Hagar and she is compared to those under the perpetual curse of the Law that came from Mt. Sinai. Remember that the Torah/Law was given twice. The first was entirely from Heaven made by the hand of God yet it was broken by Moses at the foot of Mt. Sinai because of the sin of Israel. In like manner Yeshua was born of a miraculous birth (virgin) and was broken for the sins of Israel and all that become Israel by faith. (Your God is my God, your people are my people see Ruth, Ephesians 2) Now there was another set of tablets that were given but they were the works of a man's hand as it was Moses that made these tablets. God's Word was written upon both sets by God Himself and both sets were written upon both the front and back. Why both sides? Why not just make one big tablet and write all ten words on one side? Why two tablets and writing on both sides? Consider the possibility that there are two tablets so that it may be fulfilled that by the witness of two shall everything be established. Why both sides? Consider that this leaves room for no additions by man as all that can exist has taken up both sides.��� Now this second set of tablets became a burden that Israel was required to carry with it everywhere it went. This second set brought death to all that by nature could not keep the Law perfectly and from within their canal hearts. All that were under this second set were in bondage to it simply because keeping it was contrary to their hearts desire. Man by nature wants to be free to choose his own way being subject to no one or thing. In reality this is not possible since to do so would require that one lived in a world all alone. So there you have it two covenants one from above the other from below. One of promise/faith the other by works. One of life the other of death. As it is written "in Adam all die" (1st Cor. 15:22) even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Consider what Paul says to the Roman believers:

Rom 8:1-17� There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.� (2)� For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.� (3)� For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:� (4)� That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.� (5)� For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.� (6)� For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.� (7)� Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.� (8)� So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.� (9)� But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.� (10)� And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.� (11)� But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.� (12)� Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.� (13)� For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.� (14)� For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.� (15)� For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.� (16)� The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:� (17)� And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

See that by simple Abraham/Joshua and Caleb faith in God's Word/promises we are judged as righteous. What does it mean to be judged righteous? Did Abraham have faults? Yes he did but nowhere and at no time was Abraham condemned by God simply because even though he was weak in the flesh (lied to Pharaoh/Abimelech/ had a son by Hagar the bond woman) he, Abraham was willing to obey, willing to believe God from His heart. Abraham was thus in Messiah even then by simple faith and thus not under condemnation and all this before the Law was given at Mt. Sinai! Notice too how Abraham overcame his flesh by faith in God's Word. He circumcised himself and every male of his household and he offered up his only divinely promised Son Isaac all by faith.

The Jerusalem from above is free:

Rev 21:1-7� And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.� (2)� And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.� (3)� And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.� (4)� And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.� (5)� And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.� (6)� And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.� (7)� He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This free Jerusalem from above is made up of all believers that have received the Spirit of adoption by faith in God's Word and who by this same indwelling Holy Spirit have overcame their carnal (Adamic) natures. It is this life of faith and obedience that will bear the Son of promise in us all as is witnessed by the fruits of the Spirit we bear. (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Eph 5:22) We that were barren and as a dead Almond branch (Aharon's staff) are made alive by faith in God's calling and it is this life from what was once dead that is a witness, a testimony to the life given us by the will of God through faith in His only begotten Son, the seed of promise Yeshua our Messiah!

Shalom,


Avi

[Kenny Cartwright]

SHalom, This response is going to be a bit broader than the verses in question- but I think provides a good historical and cultural background to the whole letter as well as to all the Writings of the Apostles including the Gospels. THe verses in question are included. 

The key to understanding Galatians is to know the historical and cultural context in which it was written. Circumcision is a big part of the letter, but the idea of "works of the Torah" and related terms also appear. In Acts 15, a council is convened to hammer out some of these issues. Apparently Galatians was written prior to this council, otherwise I think Paul would have mentioned it. In Acts 15 we see that the push for circumcision by Pharisee believers in Yeshua was so that the Gentile can be saved. In the culture of the day- circumcision was an ethnic sign- a sign of being a Jew. In other words, one had to become a Jew to be saved. To the Romans, and the Greeks before them, circumcision was a sign of mutilation and brought severe persecution from Roman authorities to any gentile who would have it done. Paul brings up a very interesting and Rabbinic style argument in Romans that Avraham (the first "Jew") was justified not by being circumcised, but by faith. Afterwards he subjected himself to circumcision- not to be justified, but as a seal of the justification he had by faith.  It s not that circumcision was in itself wrong- it is a commandment- but why the circumcision was done (or the doing of any of the commandments). I will get to that in a bit. 

But notice the narrative concerning Avraham's circumcision. Avraham is promised a son in Genesis 15, and by his faith is counted righteous (by the way, in the 10 words in Exodus 20 and Deut 5, the first commandment of the 10 is Rabbinically to have faith in your redeemer). In Genesis 16, he and Sarah get tired of waiting, and embark on their own plan to help G-D fulfill His promise. In Genesis17, that plan and its result are rejected, and Avraham is told to cut off the excess flesh  on that which he used to fulfill G-D's promise by his own efforts! In a a sense, circumcision is a sign that G-D will fulfill His promise in His time based on His faithfulness- not mine. Circumcision is meant to be a statement of faith in G-D rather than my own efforts. The efforts on my part are to be a reaction of love (as in the Shema) towards G-D- not to get anything out of it.

In the 1st century, (probably due to events in the 2nd century bce which led to the Maccabean revolt), circumcision was a sign of being a Jew- so much so that even Paul often uses it as a catch phrase to distinguish Jews from Gentiles. In that era, there were the Sadducees whose opinions rarely make it into the Oral Torah- if so it is to disparage their opinions), the Essenes (of whom there is wide variety of scholarly opinion as to who they were), the Zealots (mainly a political group who wanted to throw off the yoke of Rome), and the beloved Pharisees. What is less understood about the Pharisees is that they were not a monolithic group. At the least there were two schools- the School of Shammai, and the School of Hillel. The school of Shammai was the more stringent, the School of Hillel was the most liberal. In regards to Gentiles (such as those at Galatia), the School of Shammai gave no hope in the world to come, the School of Hillel said to draw all men to the Torah in love. During the time of Yeshua and the Apostles, the Talmud records that the School of Shammai held sway, then after the destruction of the 2nd Temple, by virtue of a heavenly voice, the School of Hillel became the leading group. Most of the Oral Torah and Rabbinic Judaism we have today is from the School of Hillel, the Pharisees that Yeshua rebuked and against whom Paul argued against were mostly from the School of Shammai. The "influencers" at Galatia (to borrow a term from Tim Hegg) were most likely Shammaites, as were those arguing in favor of circumcision at the Acts 15 council. It was their mindset that would use keeping the Torah- being "under the Torah" in order to get the benefits. They were the more scholarly class and proud of it- they would increase learning and doing to gain honor from their fellows and from Heaven. Since they were the wealthier School, they had the attitude that their obedience was why they were wealthy- and would be scrupulous for that reason.For them, keeping the Torah was something to gain favor. That is the Jerusalem of Paul's day. The Jerusalem above is free, which I will discuss below.

The Essenes, of whom we are still learning, had a particular document discovered in the 1940's that explains another of Paul's catch phrases- "the works of the Torah". In a document called MMT, of Miksat Maasei Torah (Some of the Works of the Torah), there are some 24(? if I remember right)commandments that if one is scrupulous about, it will be counted as righteousness and will be for your own good and the good of Israel (remember how Avraham was counted righteous?).

Avraham, being justified by faith in G-D (the Word of G-D according to Onkelos' Targum), kept the "torot"- the Torah because he loved G-D. Israel, having been redeemed already, received the Torah some 50 days after the redemption from Egypt- not so they would be redeemed- but because they were! David, who had chosen the way of faith- loved the Torah (Psalm 119) and passionately desired to keep it- why? Because he loved G-D and His Word!! Now, all the background info I have presented is to come to this point. In the Talmud, Taanit 7a, it is stated that keeping the Torah "L'Shma"- for its own sake- i.e. not to get a reward (honor, wealth or health, or justification) makes the Torah a medicine for life- but to keep Torah not for its own sake (from selfish motive) makes the Torah an elixir of death. Those influencing the Galatians were trying to get them to submit to the Torah not for its own sake, or as a result of what G-D had done for them already (as in the 10 words), but in order to gain favor with G-D and to be saved. That is turning the whole thing on its head. In 1John we are told that we love Him because He loved us first. And if we love Him (as is pictured in the Shema) we will keep His commandments. Not for salvation, but because we are saved! In that way, we are not under the Torah, wondering if we have done enough, always worrying, or on the other hand boasting in ourselves as if we are superior. Being under grace, we become servants of righteousness, which is defined in the Torah- not out of fear or trepidation, but out of love for G-D. We want to obey. In that sense, we are not under the Torah at all- as if it is a heavy weight- it is a joy!  That is the Jerusalem above which is free- as Zechariah the father of John the dunker said of Messiah (end of Luke 1) that he would deliver us from our enemies (the sin nature being the greatest) so that we could serve G-D in holiness and righteousness (biblically defined as obedience to the commandments) all our days.

In the section of Galatians referenced in the question, there is an interesting perspective in the Rabbincal writings. At Sinai, the main thrust of the covenant  is the performance of the commandments. At Moab- just prior to going into the Promised Land, the covenant is reiterated. Rashi, one of the main Jewish commentators sees in the repetition of the covenant at Moab what Jeremiah calls the New Covenant. What i have noticed years ago is that the renewal of the covenant at Moab in Deuteronomy seems to place the emphasis more on the heart than the performance. Not that performance is less important- but the heart- doing the commandments out of a heart of love for G-D- the circumcision of the heart as superior to, though in now way negating, physical circumcision. In the Shema- the doing of the commandments is not for personal gain, but because we love G-D who has redeemed us to Himself. And the promise is that He will take care of us. 

This is somewhat long. Rabbi Yehudah Lev Ashlag wrote an introduction to the Zohar that has been translated into English called "In the Shadow of the Ladder", where he goes into a great bit of detail about the motivation to keep Torah- it is very good. I disagree with his idea of the "recycling of souls" in the book- but I still highly recommend it. Harvey Faulk has a book out called "Jesus the Pharisee" that explains the historical context of the "New Testament". I would argue his point that Yeshua and Paul started a new religion for the Gentiles that was to be distinct from Judaism- that is a common Jewish perception. Brad Scott at wildbranch.org(I think I got his website correct) has a very good series on the term "under the law".  

[Jeff A]

B"H

Well, to add my two cents worth, I can't add anything to this, other than to saythat this explains Galatians very well!

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

[Kenny Cartwright]

Thank you, Sir! 

Blessings and Shalom Rav!!

[Jeff A]

B”H

 

Thank you!  I’m just a student like you, and I found what you wrote very informative.

 

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

 

[Jeff A]

B”H

 

I might add that most of Rav Shaul’s letters were to Gentile converts in Asia Minor (with the exception of Romans, of course), and as such his readers would not have known Hebrew or Aramaic.  What we can say is that Matthew and Mark were probably (but not conclusively) written in Aramaic, and maybe John, but Luke and Acts were most likely written in Greek, since Luke was a Greek physician, and it is apparent that the individual he was writing to was Greek and not Hebrew.

 

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

 

[Bryce Henderson]

Exactly.

[andy]

The Jews are still trying to make the gentiles Jews. We are to keep His commandments not Moses’. we are under obedience stemming from faith, not the law. The law of Moses was used on an earthly kingdom, with the powers of an earthly court to maintain justice. We are seated with Christ in heavenly  places.  There is neither Jew nor Gentile in God’s eyes, we are all the sons of Adam and when converted, we are the adopted sons of God. We don’t become Jewish speaking Hebrew, we become disciples of Jesus obeying His commands to be one and to love one another. putting up walls is not of God but the devil.

Ephesians 2:14-16, “For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” NKJV

Jesus told His disciples to  go and make disciiples teaching them to observe, obey “all the things I have commanded you.” His kingdom was preached. He told Nicodemus that one had to be born again to see and to enter that Kingdom. Even the Jew had to repent and be baptized to enter the kingdom. If a gentile under the old covenant wanted to become Jewish, he would become baptized. How is it that John and Jesus were requiring the Jews to be baptized? Wasn’t being Jewish and born of the seed of Abraham enough? Abraham was not Jewish and was not under the law of Moses. Abraham was honored because of His faith and I am of the faith of Abraham without the law. I obey Jesus commands as He taught His disciples. I don’t just call Him Lord, Lord, I keep His commandments because I love Him and I what to please Him.

Paul kept dealing with the Jews who kept trying to make Jews out of the gentiles, but the Jews also need to repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. It is a sad thing to see the Jews who keep trying to rebuild the wall of partition. Division is of the devil. A house divided cannot stand. We are either for Him or against Him. We should be striving for the unity of the faith, rather that arguing over how to pronounce His name in Hebrew. I am American, been a follower of Him for 47 years, I have read the word for 4 hours each day for 47 years. I love Him and want to walk in His light. I call Him Jesus, He and He never rebuked me for it, though He has rebuked me for many other things.  What is in a person that tries to make others like them? I want to be like Jesus, not some man.

[Kenny Cartwright]

Andy, I will not try to make you like me. You do not have to be or need to be like me. But, I will ask you one question, have you gone out to look and see if the Heavens and Earth have passed away? Last I checked, they havent, so according to Yeshua (Jesus), not one stroke of the Torah or Prophets has passed away either. Therefore whoever does the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so wil be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven- whoever overturns one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. THis statement is included in the sending out of the disciples at the Ascension of Yeshua into all the word to make students of them all teaching them everything I (Yeshua) have taught you.

Therefore- dont try to be like me, or like a Jew, or like a christian, or anything else- be obedient to the whole Word to please Him and Him alone. 

Shalom to you,

kenny cartwright

[Jeff A]

B”H

 

I may be misunderstanding you, so forgive me if I have, but are you saying that one is not required to do and teach the Torah and the Prophets?  Certainly Rav Shaul does not make that claim in his letter to the Galatians; only that doing the commandments does not bring one salvation; only faith can do that, and that doing the commandments for the sake of salvation, rather than the love of Hashem, leads to death.  And certainly, that is not what Yeshua teaches.  When reading Galatians, we must remember that the Talmidim cannot override or contradict what Yeshua says.

 

“Mat 5:17-19 ESV  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  (18)  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.  (19)  Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

 

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

 

 

From: jerusale...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jerusale...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of andy

Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 8:36 PM
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com