Shomer Negilah
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Bryce Henderson
Apr 27, 2011, 10:33:15 PM4/27/11
to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Some time ago Israel b. Betzalel said the following:
Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.From this we learn that it is a sin for a man touch a married woman. Torah later gives us the exceptions to this broad prohibition. The Hebrew word for "touch" is where we learn to be shomer "negiah".Abimelech didn't know that Sarah was married, so it can be drawn from there that a man should not touch even an unmarried woman. Of course the Torah gives us exceptions. Concerning the angels who rescued lot, they grabbed both his hands and those of his wife. So saving someone is an exception. So is laying on of hands, and healing, as Yeshua himself "touched her" and she was healed.However, the general prohibition stands. The Torah lays out the exceptions, but I do not know all of them yet as I have not fully studied this subject. It is better to err on the side of caution until one knows the exceptions.
I'd like to talk more about what it means to be shomer negilah.
How do you determine who you can, and cannot touch? Do the commandments of Leviticus 18 which say who we cannot marry inform the discussion?
Your ideas would be greatly appreciated — especially if backed with Scripture.
R. Hezekiah Ross
Apr 29, 2011, 2:01:00 AM4/29/11
to JerusalemCouncil.org - Global Messianic Jewish Mailing List
Shalom Akhi Bryce,
I would like to discuss this with you if I may................. There
are a few different views that are approached when this subject is
brought up............ as with alot of these type of questions we find
different variances in the answers for being Shomer
Negiah.................. like for instance if Halaka allows a man to
shake a womans hand is a matter of dispute..................There are
those whom Teach that it is strictly forbidden to shake hands with a
female then there are those who say as long as when shaking hands it
is not meant to be Derech Ta'avah (Lustful or affectionate manner) but
also you may have the need to shake hands for a buisness deal say like
an interview but quickly done and to the point................I
believe one of the places that refers to it being permisable to shake
a Womans hand is found within the Yerushalmi and as a ruling from the
Rambam........I will have to look these up since I can not remember
from the top of my head........... But the ultimate that we find it
would and could be viewd that if one would choose not to shake hands
with a female they have the right to refrain .....also note if one
feels it would be inappropriate and would cause Torah to look bad then
by all means refrain from shaking hands.........................Now
with that said I believe this is why it is so important for us to take
a shower daily! AMEIN!
I will come back and talk more with you on this latter but hopefully
this opens this discussion up :-))
I would like to discuss this with you if I may................. There
are a few different views that are approached when this subject is
brought up............ as with alot of these type of questions we find
different variances in the answers for being Shomer
Negiah.................. like for instance if Halaka allows a man to
shake a womans hand is a matter of dispute..................There are
those whom Teach that it is strictly forbidden to shake hands with a
female then there are those who say as long as when shaking hands it
is not meant to be Derech Ta'avah (Lustful or affectionate manner) but
also you may have the need to shake hands for a buisness deal say like
an interview but quickly done and to the point................I
believe one of the places that refers to it being permisable to shake
a Womans hand is found within the Yerushalmi and as a ruling from the
Rambam........I will have to look these up since I can not remember
from the top of my head........... But the ultimate that we find it
would and could be viewd that if one would choose not to shake hands
with a female they have the right to refrain .....also note if one
feels it would be inappropriate and would cause Torah to look bad then
by all means refrain from shaking hands.........................Now
with that said I believe this is why it is so important for us to take
a shower daily! AMEIN!
I will come back and talk more with you on this latter but hopefully
this opens this discussion up :-))
R. Hezekiah Ross
May 1, 2011, 11:52:02 PM5/1/11
to JerusalemCouncil.org - Global Messianic Jewish Mailing List
Shalom,
Ok I wanted to come back and adress some issues with what I had
already posted ........... The Idea of being Shomer Negiah is to be
watchful in how one touches ....... the idea is we understand that
these are those who we are allowed to have phyisical contact with as
long as one is being appropriate in how they touch of course.....ones
own wife, children, grandchildren, grandparents, and
parents.........but with that said we understand that the touch that
is given must and foremost be APPROPRIATE! Derech Ta'avah is always
forbidden NO MATTER WHO IT IS........ unless this is ones own wife and
even then we must refrain from approaching her sexually during her
Niddah................ What it seen from the TEXT is simple that we
must be Observant in how we conduct ourselves around the opposite
sex............ Being watchful in ALL that we do akhi is the whole
point ...........................
1Th 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1Th 5:23 Now may the Elohym of peace Himself sanctify you completely;
and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at
the coming of our Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach.
What is the whole idea of being BLAMELESS Akhi?
תָּמִים
Ta'miym = meaning to be Mature in ones actions also meaning to be
sound whole and complete, innocent and having INTERGRITY! We
understand through this that in ALL THAT we do we must be INNOCENT in
our actions and MATURE in how we handle things....... so as I stated
before one must Refrain from the very appearance of Evil knowing that
even in our actions we can PROFANE the Name of HaShem so in all that
we do and how we do things must be in accordance to PURITY! and
HOLINESS is the very KEY being as Yeshua would be and knowing when we
are surrounded by the Opposite sex in our everyday lives to walk in
MATURITY and HOLINESS in our behavior! Never giving place for the
enemy to be able to come in and destroy always having our Guard up and
being aware to the devices that Hasatan always is trying to use to
destroy the saints!
I hope this was helpful and I hope it brings some Light to the
subject :)
Shalom for now R.Hezekiah Ross
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ok I wanted to come back and adress some issues with what I had
already posted ........... The Idea of being Shomer Negiah is to be
watchful in how one touches ....... the idea is we understand that
these are those who we are allowed to have phyisical contact with as
long as one is being appropriate in how they touch of course.....ones
own wife, children, grandchildren, grandparents, and
parents.........but with that said we understand that the touch that
is given must and foremost be APPROPRIATE! Derech Ta'avah is always
forbidden NO MATTER WHO IT IS........ unless this is ones own wife and
even then we must refrain from approaching her sexually during her
Niddah................ What it seen from the TEXT is simple that we
must be Observant in how we conduct ourselves around the opposite
sex............ Being watchful in ALL that we do akhi is the whole
point ...........................
1Th 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1Th 5:23 Now may the Elohym of peace Himself sanctify you completely;
and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at
the coming of our Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach.
What is the whole idea of being BLAMELESS Akhi?
תָּמִים
Ta'miym = meaning to be Mature in ones actions also meaning to be
sound whole and complete, innocent and having INTERGRITY! We
understand through this that in ALL THAT we do we must be INNOCENT in
our actions and MATURE in how we handle things....... so as I stated
before one must Refrain from the very appearance of Evil knowing that
even in our actions we can PROFANE the Name of HaShem so in all that
we do and how we do things must be in accordance to PURITY! and
HOLINESS is the very KEY being as Yeshua would be and knowing when we
are surrounded by the Opposite sex in our everyday lives to walk in
MATURITY and HOLINESS in our behavior! Never giving place for the
enemy to be able to come in and destroy always having our Guard up and
being aware to the devices that Hasatan always is trying to use to
destroy the saints!
I hope this was helpful and I hope it brings some Light to the
subject :)
Shalom for now R.Hezekiah Ross
> On Apr 27, 7:33 pm, Bryce Hendersonbegin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting<iservea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Some time ago Israel b. Betzalel said the following:
>
> > > Genesis 20:6
> > > Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
>
> > > From this we learn that it is a sin for a man touch a married woman. Torah later gives us the exceptions to this broad prohibition. The Hebrew word for "touch" is where we learn to be shomer "negiah".
>
> > > Abimelech didn't know that Sarah was married, so it can be drawn from there that a man should not touch even an unmarried woman. Of course the Torah gives us exceptions. Concerning the angels who rescued lot, they grabbed both his hands and those of his wife. So saving someone is an exception. So is laying on of hands, and healing, as Yeshua himself "touched her" and she was healed.
>
> > > However, the general prohibition stands. The Torah lays out the exceptions, but I do not know all of them yet as I have not fully studied this subject. It is better to err on the side of caution until one knows the exceptions.
>
> > I'd like to talk more about what it means to be shomer negilah.
>
> > How do you determine who you can, and cannot touch? Do the commandments of Leviticus 18 which say who we cannot marry inform the discussion?
>
> > Your ideas would be greatly appreciated — especially if backed with Scripture.- Hide quoted text -
>
>
>
> > Some time ago Israel b. Betzalel said the following:
>
> > > Genesis 20:6
> > > Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
>
> > > From this we learn that it is a sin for a man touch a married woman. Torah later gives us the exceptions to this broad prohibition. The Hebrew word for "touch" is where we learn to be shomer "negiah".
>
> > > Abimelech didn't know that Sarah was married, so it can be drawn from there that a man should not touch even an unmarried woman. Of course the Torah gives us exceptions. Concerning the angels who rescued lot, they grabbed both his hands and those of his wife. So saving someone is an exception. So is laying on of hands, and healing, as Yeshua himself "touched her" and she was healed.
>
> > > However, the general prohibition stands. The Torah lays out the exceptions, but I do not know all of them yet as I have not fully studied this subject. It is better to err on the side of caution until one knows the exceptions.
>
> > I'd like to talk more about what it means to be shomer negilah.
>
> > How do you determine who you can, and cannot touch? Do the commandments of Leviticus 18 which say who we cannot marry inform the discussion?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bryce Henderson
May 2, 2011, 12:03:39 AM5/2/11
to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Hezzy - thanks for your thoughts!
Where do we learn from Torah who we can and cannot touch? Is it detailed there somewhere? Can we derive the list from Leviticus 18? After all, I think that if I am permitted to marry my cousin I shouldn't be touching her like I touch my sister whom I cannot marry. For that matter, how can I touch my sister? Also, are children allowed to touch each other and that stops at puberty?
Whatcha think folks? How does Torah teach us these things?
Thanks!
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XuS Casal
May 2, 2011, 5:52:00 AM5/2/11
to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
In Sulchan Aruch [even ha-ezer 21:7] we read clearly that the point of not touching a girl is to not fall into sexual licentiousness. Something like Lot with his daughters.
"To hug or kiss one of the arayot whom people do not normally lust after, such as his adult sister or his aunt or similar, even though he derives no pleasure at all, is very reprehensible, forbidden, and the act of a fool. This is because there are no relatives for [the purposes of] licentiousness at all, whether adult or minor, except the father to his daughter and the mother to her son. How is this? A father is permitted to hug his daughter, kiss her, and sleep next to her with flesh touching, and so too a mother with her son, as long as they are minors. [Note to translation: A girl is typically a minor until the age of twelve, and a boy until the age of thirteen.] When they grow up, so that the son is an adult, and the daughter is an adult until "her breasts are formed and her hair grows" (Ezekiel 16:7), they must sleep clothed. If the daughter is embarrassed to stand before her father naked, or she is betrothed, and likewise if the mother is embarrassed to stand before her son naked ן¿½ even if they are minors, when they reach the point of being embarrassed, they may not sleep together except clothed".
the word arayot used here refers to the women with whom the Torah forbids intercourse [even ha-ezer 15]. The term: 'do not normally lust after' shows the case of sexual intentions, not the mere touching.
Talmud says [Sotah 21b]: a man who does not save a woman from drowning is a Chasid Shoteh (a ן¿½pious foolן¿½). Sometimes our fear to touch a woman makes her lose the way. In the same way, if a woman doesn't know the ways of God and needs a hug, if we don't hug her, how are we dealing with the love of God because of our legalism? If she wanna shake hands for a business or a humble greeting, if we don't shake hands back, won't we cause her embarrassment? Won't she think that jews are so rude?
Bereshis says: "I know you did this with innocent heart, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let youtouch her." (Gn 20:6).
Here the word "Touch" is not about a mere touching but about sexual relations. previous verse says: "Abimelech had not gone near her" (verse 4).
a few verses before we read the case of Lot, who impregnated his daughters. The same daughters were touched by the angel of HaShem that saved their lives.
From this I learn that we can touch a woman for an innocent reason (remember in Mt 28:9 how many women held Yeshua by the feet), but we cannot touch her with impure mind, even if she is our family.
But I don't oppose to those that lift a fence. Some people are weaker, and need a strict lifestyle.
Shalom
-XuS-
> Subject: Re: [JC] Re: Shomer Negilah
> From: iserv...@mac.com
> Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 22:03:39 -0600
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
"To hug or kiss one of the arayot whom people do not normally lust after, such as his adult sister or his aunt or similar, even though he derives no pleasure at all, is very reprehensible, forbidden, and the act of a fool. This is because there are no relatives for [the purposes of] licentiousness at all, whether adult or minor, except the father to his daughter and the mother to her son. How is this? A father is permitted to hug his daughter, kiss her, and sleep next to her with flesh touching, and so too a mother with her son, as long as they are minors. [Note to translation: A girl is typically a minor until the age of twelve, and a boy until the age of thirteen.] When they grow up, so that the son is an adult, and the daughter is an adult until "her breasts are formed and her hair grows" (Ezekiel 16:7), they must sleep clothed. If the daughter is embarrassed to stand before her father naked, or she is betrothed, and likewise if the mother is embarrassed to stand before her son naked ן¿½ even if they are minors, when they reach the point of being embarrassed, they may not sleep together except clothed".
the word arayot used here refers to the women with whom the Torah forbids intercourse [even ha-ezer 15]. The term: 'do not normally lust after' shows the case of sexual intentions, not the mere touching.
Talmud says [Sotah 21b]: a man who does not save a woman from drowning is a Chasid Shoteh (a ן¿½pious foolן¿½). Sometimes our fear to touch a woman makes her lose the way. In the same way, if a woman doesn't know the ways of God and needs a hug, if we don't hug her, how are we dealing with the love of God because of our legalism? If she wanna shake hands for a business or a humble greeting, if we don't shake hands back, won't we cause her embarrassment? Won't she think that jews are so rude?
Bereshis says: "I know you did this with innocent heart, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let youtouch her." (Gn 20:6).
Here the word "Touch" is not about a mere touching but about sexual relations. previous verse says: "Abimelech had not gone near her" (verse 4).
a few verses before we read the case of Lot, who impregnated his daughters. The same daughters were touched by the angel of HaShem that saved their lives.
From this I learn that we can touch a woman for an innocent reason (remember in Mt 28:9 how many women held Yeshua by the feet), but we cannot touch her with impure mind, even if she is our family.
But I don't oppose to those that lift a fence. Some people are weaker, and need a strict lifestyle.
Shalom
-XuS-
> Subject: Re: [JC] Re: Shomer Negilah
> From: iserv...@mac.com
> Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 22:03:39 -0600
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> > ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½
> >>>> Then God said to him in the dream, ן¿½Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
> >>
> >>>> From this we learn that it is a sin for a man touch a married woman. Torah later gives us the exceptions to this broad prohibition. The Hebrew word for "touch" is where we learn to be shomer "negiah".
> >>
> >>>> Abimelech didn't know that Sarah was married, so it can be drawn from there that a man should not touch even an unmarried woman. Of course the Torah gives us exceptions. Concerning the angels who rescued lot, they grabbed both his hands and those of his wife. So saving someone is an exception. So is laying on of hands, and healing, as Yeshua himself "touched her" and she was healed.
> >>
> >>>> However, the general prohibition stands. The Torah lays out the exceptions, but I do not know all of them yet as I have not fully studied this subject. It is better to err on the side of caution until one knows the exceptions.
> >>
> >>> I'd like to talk more about what it means to be shomer negilah.
> >>
> >>> How do you determine who you can, and cannot touch? Do the commandments of Leviticus 18 which say who we cannot marry inform the discussion?
> >>
> >>> Your ideas would be greatly appreciated ן¿½ especially if backed with Scripture.- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > --
> > ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====
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> >
> > Shalom
> > ~ The JC Team
> >
> > Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.
>
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