The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

[Israel]

Shalom, 

Below is our vision of the JerusalemCouncil.org oganization.

May He establish His kingdom and may His salvation blossom and His messiah be near during your lifetime and during your days, and during the lifetimes of all the House of Israel, speedily and very soon!

Jerusalem Council 2.0

The Jerusalem Council . org Vision

"May You restore our judges as at earliest times, and our counselors as at first."

Requirements

• Holy Spirit Direction
• Torah Authority
• Orthodox Commitment

Needs

• People
• Leadership Involvement
• Apologetic Development
• Needs Analysis
• Communication Channels
• Situational Awareness
• Humility
• Ahavat Israel

Yeshiva

• Articles
• Jewish Day Schools
• Beit Midrash
• Rabbinical Yeshiva

Apologetic Development

Leadership Development

Teaching Development

Character Development

Raising up Apologists of the caliber of R. Shaul

Beit Din

• Conversion
• Smicha
• Questions
• Rulings
• Judgements

Self-Replicating

Accountability Development

Peer Review

Leadership Support

Community Gatekeepers

Community Development

Convert Support

Certification Process

Knesset Meshichit HaGedolah

The Great Messianic Assembly

• Israel and the Middle East
• Americas
• Asia / Pacific
• Africa
• Europe

List of all Congregations ascribing to the JerusalemCouncil.org vision

Community Support

Evangelism

Self-Replicating Study Groups

Self-Replicating Communities

Community / Communicate

• Forums
• Chat Room
• Contact
• MJ Directory

Minyan Development

Community Events

News & Alerts

Core Group Development

Conventions & Conferences

Project Milestones

Site Development

Collated List of all known Messianic congregtions

Forum

Organization Development

Vision Outline

Project Milestones

Core group contact

Core group agreement

Core group meeting

Draft Legal Organizational Charter and Incorporation

Global Contact collection

Global Contact verification

Convention planning

Convention promotion and invitations

Convention

Convention

Knesset Meshichit HaGedolah Organizational Charter

Beit Din Institutional Charter

Orthodox Jewish Yeshiva Charter

Smicha

Av Beit Din Appointment

Dayanim Appointment

Conversions

Dayanim Appointment

Rosh Yeshiva Appointment

Knesset Officers Appointment

There it is. An open vision to "restore our judges as in earliest time, and our counselors as at first." Are you excited yet? Do you have questions? Ideas? We need your input on this vision! Respond here in this email, or respond in the JC Wave.

Shalom,

Israel Aaron ben Betzalel

[Israel]

In "Requirements," Torah Authority should be "Torah Accountability." I updated this on the JC Wave.

[lucas pina]

I find this all very exciting. i am willing to offer any of what i may handle, or perform, which goes into helping with anything

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~ The JC Team
 
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[Angel Ricardo Marceló Díaz]

Shalom,

cual es tu aporte.... en que te gustarìa colaborar....

2009/12/24 lucas pina <messian...@gmail.com>

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אנחל ר'כרדו מרסלו דיאז

[lucas pina]

i will help you with 

Yeshiva and Beit Din, please i would like to start on this project as soon as possible. shalom and in yiddish sholem

2009/12/24 Angel Ricardo Marceló Díaz <anhe...@gmail.com>

[Bryce Henderson]

What is Jerusalem Council's position on things like egalitarianism? Will Jerusalem Council ordain women as "Rabbis"? It seems that Jerusalem Council holds to some form of orthodoxy — is that true?

[Israel]

If men are stepping up into their G-d called roles, then there won't be a need for ordination of women. This is my opinion, and not that of JC as a whole. That Israel needed a female judge shows the depravity of the apostacy of its men in my opinion, but I think it fits well with understanding the situation before Deborah was a judge:

Judges 4:1 And the children of Israel again did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead.

It kinda puts the whole case in a nutshell if you ask me.

Shalom,

Israel

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[Bryce Henderson]

Does JC have a position on the ordination of women?

[Israel]

Not an official position at this time.

However, the vast majority of volunteers (and of the mailing list), including myself, hold to the position that it is either not necessary, or not proper in accordance with the clear requirements of scripture, and those of the disciples of Yeshua.

It is obvious that R. Shaul writes that he does not permit a woman to teach the men. This expectation of his is according to Torah.

This probably assumes there is a man who can teach. But then again this probably assumes there are men around period.(hey what'd you expect? I'm the  Jew with the extra opinion!)

Shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

Forgot to mention: I fully believe that this requirement of male leadership is in the context of discipleship, and that in a community of men and women, the Torah gives Moses as the clear example of leadership for men, and Miriam the clear example of a role model for the women. For it is of women that R. Shaul writes that they are to teach the women. Obviously there are things only men can do according to Torah, and only things that women can do according to Torah, and only things that priests and levites can do according to Torah. The best teacher to cover all aspects, is a man who is a priest. But really now, I don't want to get dragged into a convo on it. As with any commentary, I won't stop. lol

Is

[Israel]

going on with what I wrote above...it's about finding the Most Common Denominator that can teach it all.

I know, it's silly, but Torah I think could almost be equated to a math book, its teaching is so precept upon precept. What is the Most Common Denominator of community leadership in the Torah? Adam - from which all mankind, including Eve comes from. Funny, I wonder if this is how R. Shaul came the same conclusion. (He could then have gone on to say that it is Messiah who teaches Adam, but I think the point is already made when he gets to Adam). Anyways. I should go to bed.

Shalom,

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

Thanks.

I agree that the example of Deborah was necessary because there were no righteous men to do the job Hashem wanted done. I certainly do not believe that is the case these days, so I find no credible reason for a woman to assume a leadership role like that of Deborah. If it weren't for ideas like Feminism in Western society I don't think it would even be seriously considered by many.

[Matthew Davis]

While no one here has said anything I find incorrect, I feel moved to
emphasize that there are no specific mitzvot commanding that women not
be in roles of leadership. Even if there are G-dly men available, I
see no reason why, once in awhile, a specific woman might not fit the
bill better than these available men. We're given a warning
concerning women in leadership, and we should always heed that
warning... but there is no prohibition.

-Matt

[Israel]

Agreed. There is no prohibition when certain circumstances are met.
Torah lays out the preferred model, but makes room for when all those
variables are not in place.

Israel

On Dec 29, 10:11 am, Matthew Davis <mgd1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While no one here has said anything I find incorrect, I feel moved to
> emphasize that there are no specific mitzvot commanding that women not
> be in roles of leadership.  Even if there are G-dly men available, I
> see no reason why, once in awhile, a specific woman might not fit the
> bill better than these available men.  We're given a warning
> concerning women in leadership, and we should always heed that
> warning... but there is no prohibition.
>
> -Matt
>

> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Bryce Henderson <iservea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > Thanks.
> > I agree that the example of Deborah was necessary because there were no
> > righteous men to do the job Hashem wanted done. I certainly do not believe
> > that is the case these days, so I find no credible reason for a woman to
> > assume a leadership role like that of Deborah. If it weren't for ideas like
> > Feminism in Western society I don't think it would even be seriously
> > considered by many.
>
> > On 28-Dec-09, at 11:47 PM, Israel wrote:
>
> > Not an official position at this time.
>
> > However, the vast majority of volunteers (and of the mailing list),
> > including myself, hold to the position that it is either not necessary, or
> > not proper in accordance with the clear requirements of scripture, and those
> > of the disciples of Yeshua.
>
> > It is obvious that R. Shaul writes that he does not permit a woman to teach
> > the men. This expectation of his is according to Torah.
>
> > This probably assumes there is a man who can teach. But then again this
> > probably assumes there are men around period.(hey what'd you expect? I'm
> > the  Jew with the extra opinion!)
>
> > Shalom,
>
> > Israel
>

> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Bryce Henderson <iservea...@mac.com>

> > wrote:
>
> >> Does JC have a position on the ordination of women?
> >> On 28-Dec-09, at 11:35 PM, Israel wrote:
>
> >> If men are stepping up into their G-d called roles, then there won't be a
> >> need for ordination of women. This is my opinion, and not that of JC as a
> >> whole. That Israel needed a female judge shows the depravity of the apostacy
> >> of its men in my opinion, but I think it fits well with understanding the
> >> situation before Deborah was a judge:
>
> >> Judges 4:1 And the children of Israel again did that which was evil in the
> >> sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead.
>
> >> It kinda puts the whole case in a nutshell if you ask me.
>
> >> Shalom,
>
> >> Israel
>

> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Bryce Henderson <iservea...@mac.com>

> >>> send email to cont...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

>
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>
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> >> ~ The JC Team
>
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>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pandora Patton]

Who were the first humans to see Yeshua in His glorified body? Ben Adam, yes, Male, no. Get a life boys... Leadership means availability to Him not gender.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

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Shalom Y'All

[Israel]

Pandora,

What kind of rebuttal is that?

You could drop the "get a life" attitude if you want to dialogue seriously on this matter. Keep this scholarly please.

shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

At the transfiguration there was I think James and John, and then later Moses and Elijah showed up.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Pandora Patton <sara...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

Bryce, I must disagree.  I have seen new fellowships where no man will take up the mantle of leadership.  You cannot blame feminism for the hardness of men's hearts.

[Pandora Patton]

It's just that I have seen the discussions on this list going from really good ones to angels dancing on the heads of a pin. Eloheinu will use anyone who is available who has washed their hands and their hearts, even a talking ass. I wish there were more men who would step up to the plate to actually do things to extend His Kingdom. We do need everyone who is available, men and women.

I once attended a fellowship in Brownsville, Texas. The 'pastor' was my Mom's friend's son. So I tried it. Service was rather marginal but then I attended the prayer meeting...20-30 people came but only one talked, the 'pastor.' I put his title in quotes because he was only a local lawyer and had no bible school, training, ordination, etc. So in this 'prayer meeting' he talked and everybody else said, "Amen."

That version of 'pastor' is not in any place in the Bible. But it is in Christian halacha...or tradition. The pastor as monarch is a true model. That's part of the reason the church is losing membership all over the world.

We don't want to learn traditional halacha if it is non-biblical: Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I thought this list was to discus Torah and current Messianic halacha and re-align Halacha with Torah.

Torah nowhere forbids women to be in leadership. Personally I think it is much preferable to have a "plurality of eldership" in any fellowship because I believe in the concept of "ro'im" or shepherds as plural. If you listen to Messianic hymns or choruses, it is all about 'we' and not 'I.'

If this list is going in the direction of discussing minutia of tradition which has no grounding in scripture then please unsubscribe me.

[Israel]

We don't want to learn traditional halacha if it is non-biblical: Christian, Jewish or Muslim. I thought this list was to discus Torah and current Messianic halacha and re-align Halacha with Torah.

Torah nowhere forbids women to be in leadership. Personally I think it is much preferable to have a "plurality of eldership" in any fellowship because I believe in the concept of "ro'im" or shepherds as plural. If you listen to Messianic hymns or choruses, it is all about 'we' and not 'I.'

If this list is going in the direction of discussing minutia of tradition which has no grounding in scripture then please unsubscribe me.

This list is what you or anyone else makes of it. If you want it to lean in a direction of your choosing, make a case! That's why this list exists.

We exist to build each other up by keeping the communication channel open, and thus refusing to turn our backs to one another, and thus becoming further isolated. The moment we think we've got the corner on the truth and refuse to listen to anyone else, is the moment we've forgotten our individual role in the body of Messiah - a role in which we play a part that if missing, would handicap us all. It means sticking around to build one another up - even if some are discussing the "minutiae of tradition" which we may think has no grounding in scripture.

The best way to learn how to love your neighbor is not when things are all peachy with your neighbor, and everyone is nice, but rather the best time to learn how to love your neighbor is when things are not so peachy between them and you, and especially when there are disagreements. Why would anyone want to miss out on such an opportunity to keep the mitzvah of loving one's neighbor?

Most of us have learned that often what we thought was true, was not. I dare say the vast majority of this group were at one time or another not Messianic. Instead, we came into the light of Torah when we stuck around long enough for someone to get past our objections (imagine how much love they exercised just getting that far for us), and we were patient enough to listen for the answer.

So go ahead and challenge all theologies to be made from arguments from Torah. Don't leave any stone unturned. Don't leave any argument, no matter how absurd, unsaid. You may find that often what we think was a tradition of men, could actually be a hidden mitzvah of the most Messianic of implications, and we could miss out on it because of our pre-conceived hermeneutics not making room for considering the argument in the first place.   :)

Oh, and there is a convenient unsubscribe link at the bottom of every single email this list sends out.

Shalom,

Israel

[joshua mayo]

I have been reading this list for a while now but this is the first time I have responded. I will start with this people need to stop with the junk of I don't like what so and so said so unsubscribe me. That is garbage and is just what the enemy wants you to do find every little reason to fight so we will never unite and accomplish what has been set before us. Yes the Torah does not forbid a woman to be in leadership however you must also admit that it does show rather clearly that a woman being in leadership is not the best it is only a patch to carry through until He raises up a man called by His name to lead.  Yes  we can fight about this all day long wait what is that sound oh yeah that is Ha Satan laughing at us for getting sidetracked from the goal giving him the advantage. Man or woman we need to lose the pride and follow the only leader that matters YHWH ! Rabbi Josh Mayo --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Pandora Patton <sara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.Thi

[Bryce Henderson]

The positive commandments given are that men are to be selected for
elders. While there is no negative commandment forbidding a woman to
be selected as an elder, there are positive commandments saying that
men are to be selected. Doesn't this infer that women are not to be
selected? This is the example in the Torah and the Apostolic Writings.

The situation with Deborah was a special example of Hashem raising up
a woman when no righteous men were to be found in Israel. This really
doesn't support what we see happening in congregations that allow
women to be elders.

How does one become an elder anyway? Do they just start a home
fellowship and then declare themselves an elder if they have popular
support? Or, is a new congregation planted by other elders who then
appoint faithful men to rule over the new congregation?

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>> ~ The JC Team
>>
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>> those of the
>> authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by
>> JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion
>> group,
>> send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.
>>
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[Angel Ricardo Marceló Díaz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semikhah

Concerned by the issue of smicha, I found this website, has interesting facts about the Beit Din as disappeared during Hadrian also later attempts to restore smicha and mistakes made ....

intrigues me greatly attached text on the criteria that must be taken into account for the management of the Rabbis in the Chief Rabbinate of Israel:

http://www.virtualgeula.com/semicha/semicha500.pdf



people who are in charge of dispensing justice at the Council should not only be able but placed by the Eternal HaKadosh Baruch Hu

2009/12/29 Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>

--

[Israel]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

The positive commandments given are that men are to be selected for
elders. While there is no negative commandment forbidding a woman to
be selected as an elder, there are positive commandments saying that
men are to be selected. Doesn't this infer that women are not to be
selected? This is the example in the Torah and the Apostolic Writings.

You are correct in that the Torah instructs concerning "Select capable men." It could be argued that "capable" is the qualifier that allows for an exception to be made - if no capable men are found, then a capable woman may serve.

That it says "select" indicates that there is one approving the one serving.
 

The situation with Deborah was a special example of Hashem raising up
a woman when no righteous men were to be found in Israel. This really
doesn't support what we see happening in congregations that allow
women to be elders.

Such an assumption would have to be investigated before making that conclusion.
 

How does one become an elder anyway? Do they just start a home
fellowship and then declare themselves an elder if they have popular
support? Or, is a new congregation planted by other elders who then
appoint faithful men to rule over the new congregation?

As mentioned above, it says "select" not "appoint yourselves." This could mean that a community appoints a leader, which R. Shaul encourages that we do when there are "disagreements." That appointment, however, follows Torah guidelines on appointing shoftim - where we are commanded to appoint shoftim in the Land.

[Israel]

It is interesting to note that HaShem always preserves a remnant. If a remnant of disciples, then certainly a remnant of leadership. I am certain there are many Christian "pastors" who have a lineage of ordination going back to Yeshua, and Moses, and of those who do, when they recognize others as equals, essentially approve what HaShem has already done in raising up leadership. It is G-d who does the appointing. It is men who do the confirming.

Israel

2009/12/29 Angel Ricardo Marceló Díaz <anhe...@gmail.com>

[Israel]

I should also mention that this organization already has a number of rabbis who participate in this vision in various ways who have the highest level of smicha in orthodox Judaism, and the issue of smicha is one that is quickly being resolved as one of our first goals in the planning stages of this vision. Our goal is to present an organization providing smicha for the benefit of the global Messianic community - so that a convert to Judaism through our efforts at establishing them among the believing orthodox community, is an orthodox convert in every way, the only difference with other orthodox converts is their being a professed faith and witness of the convert's faith that Yeshua is the Messiah.

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

I wonder why it is that so many people cling to the one exception to the rule when talking about women being elders. I think the rest of the witness of Scripture is clear that women are not to serve as elders. I think that it would be a very unusual circumstance that would lead to a woman ruling over His people.

Can you give an example of when a woman might be chosen as an elder instead of a "capable" man? When would we truly find a community where only women would be fit to lead?

[Bryce Henderson]

I think that is wonderful.

[Israel]

Case in point:

Who is to circumcise an eight day old son?

Who circumcised Gershon? Why?

The answer to these questions reveal a halacha that I think may be relevant to the topic.

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

Please, fill us in.

You're talking about Levi's firstborn son, Gershon?

[Israel]

Why did Zipporah take the lead to circumcise her son?

[Israel]

Bear in mind this stems from asking the Torah the question: Where is there a case in Torah where a woman or women took the lead for something a man was responsible for - and it was a positive thing?

The first one I could think of is Zipporah. The second was the case of Zelophad's daughters.

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

This is an interesting discussion, but I would like to emphasise that I am saying that a woman cannot hold the office of an elder. I am not saying that a woman cannot act as a prophet or bring correction to her fellow as needed. I do not question that Hashem uses all His children to do His will. I am saying that a woman is not to lead His people.

It seems that Zipporah circumcised her son because Moses hadn't done it yet.

[Israel]

Why did Moses not do it?

[Bryce Henderson]

I don't know. The text does not say and I do not have access to the midrash right now.

[Israel]

The answer is always in the Torah. Midrash only confirms what is found. In the exact midpoint of the Torah the Hebrew words derash derosh is found. It means to inquire deeply. It means that what Torah teaches is only found when we inquire of it dilligently.  :)  So then, lets continue:

What does the previous verse say in Ex 4:23, and why is that juxtaposed to verse 24?

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

Moses was to tell Pharaoh that Hashem would kill his firstborn son. I suppose Hashem meant violence towards Moses' household because Moses hadn't circumcised his son yet. However, I do not understand how the text reveals *why* Moses hadn't circumcised his son yet.

[Israel]

Well, let's look at the text. I'll highlight and let you draw conclusions:

Exodus 4:22
ואמרת אל-פרעה כה אמר יהוה בני בכרי ישראל

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh: Thus saith the LORD: Israel is My son, My first-born.

Exodus 4:23
 ואמר אליך שלח את-בני ויעבדני ותמאן לשלחו הנה אנכי הרג את-בנך בכרך

Exodus 4:23
And I have said unto thee: Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and thou hast refused to let him go. Behold, I will slay thy son, thy first-born.’—

Exodus 4:24
ויהי בדרך במלון ויפגשהו יהוה ויבקש המיתו

Exodus 4:24
And it came to pass on the Way at the lodging-place, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.


So according to the rule of juxtaposition, what did Moses do or rather not do, to deserve being sought by HaShem?

Answering that, can you think of other clues given in the text that that may indicate the circumstances involved as to why? Hint: why is there is a lodging place (inn) mentioned?

Israel

[Matthew Davis]

Let us also not forget that Hebrew is a male-presumptive language.
For instance, when it says "your fathers," it may be taken to mean
"your ancestors." When Torah gives a positive commandment for "men,"
it therefore cannot (or at the very least least, cannot always) act as
a negative commandment for women.

-Matt

[Pandora Patton]

Male or female leadership does not necessarily mean "leadership" (ie. eldership) in a congregation. Deborah herself said that she would have preferred a male leader go out to war, but since one was not available she went to war and that women would get the glory. So Yael and the tent peg got the glory. 

Luke in particular portrays the roles of women leaders. Acts as well. The kinesia (ekklesia) in Europe owes its existence to Lydia and Paul's (Shaul's) Macedonian vision. Y'shua appeared first to women. Why? They are the ones who went to wash the body which could not have been done earlier because of Shabbat. Men could wash bodies, it was not a job specifically for women. But the women went and the men fled.

So they got to see Him in His glorified body first. Granted there were a few male disciples who got to see Moshe and Eliyahu on the Mount of Transfiguration. But the same disciples that were there were hiding out behind closed doors after Y'shua was crucified.

Now the Brit Ha Hadasha speaks specifically that elders must be husbands of one wife. So and I want to say "duh," elders in kehillot are supposed to be married men. Like the elders at the gates of Jerusalem they are supposed to act as judges.  So that also leaves out un-married men.

I personally don't prefer women alone (even with husbands) to be pastors, I like the couple as co-pastors (with a team of ro'im) to be the most preferable of situations in our modern world. Look at Ephesians. There is no gender specific language for the "5 fold ministry" of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher, like there is for bishop or elder.

If you look overseas you will find most ambassadors of Y'shua's Kingdom in cross cultural contexts are women. Why? Is that Biblical? No. But neither is it Biblical to say that all these ambassadors must be men.

Another challenge: What I mentioned in my earlier email...There should be no thrones in the kehillot. Leadership means service not privilege. The place where I have been attending is so non Biblically structurally I am having to re-assess my relationship with it. I have been claiming that I am there to minister as well, but lately it has gravitated to the senior pastor acts like Santa to his staff (who are the elves.) They actually do this light black out before they put a spotlight on him as if he were Celine Dion or something. YIKES

I know that this is a huge thorny issue for the Guf Ha Mashiach (Body of Messiah) in Israel as well, because it is a very egalitarian culture in Israel, so the Pastor as Pope model is only acceptable to the Russian immigrants who come from a high power distance culture. The Arab culture is way more high power distance but in reality some of their churches are less autocratic than the Jewish ones. Fellowships that write extensive newsletters and get much money from overseas are more susceptible to this model because the guy in charge does not want to lose his income and power. The result of following this model is that about 2/3rds of the former attendees of the Messianic fellowships do not attend them. Some have home groups and some just fellowship 1 on 1 or 2 and 3 together.

Also remember that all English translations suffer from the King James predilection to masculinize everything, even words in Greek and Hebrew that are not gender specific. "Water" is masculine  in Hebrew. However that is not to say that water is a male entity. It is just the way the language works. I think that confused the translators of the King James. It has confused many Bible translators and caused much harm.

OK to those humans, male or female, who were offended by my "get a life" remark, I do apologize. Think of how much richness we can glean from the "plurality of leaders" who are on this list. But my plea is to not just use these discussions to replicate the Pastor as Pope ( and male pope) with 100% control of the congregation. This is not a job description. That is why I say, "Get a life."

In a total other sentiment I challenge all of you who can to go see Avatar. Whether you agree with its agenda or not, it really shows an example of a tribal (they call them clans) society where men and women have their place and sphere of influence.

Many women who don't understand have been scandalized by the Amidah where the male prays "Thank G*d you did not make me a woman." He says that not to suggest that women are not 100% equal to men in their status before heaven, but because it is usually the women who have to get the children up and off to school while the Dads are at the Kotel with Shachrit prayers. Because Eloheinu did not make them women they have the privilege of breaking the dawn with prayer and praise. Women can pray from anywhere as they are considered more spiritual.

If we all worked well within our sphere of influence we would get this job (Great Commission) done and usher in the Return of Mashiach.

Great love (ahava) to all...Pandora

Shalom Y'All

[Bryce Henderson]

Moses did not enter his firstborn son into the covenant that Hashem had made with his father Abraham. Pharaoh wasn't letting His people go either, so it wasn't right that Moses would go with that message without first taking care of his responsibilities towards his firstborn son.

Why is there an inn mentioned? Perhaps Moses should have taken that opportunity of being stopped at an inn to circumcise his son?

[Bryce Henderson]

We're talking about specific commandments regarding the appointment of
elders to rule over the people. Are you saying that those specific
commandments concerning judges and officers in Yisro (Exodus 18) and
Shoftim (Deuteronomy 16) can apply to both men and women?

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[Israel]

I was thinking more along the lines that Moses made a mistake of judging halacha. Obviously when is a male circumcised? On the eighth day. So how many women and infants do you know are able to make a journey on donkey-back (a ref to messiah on this one too) to Egypt during the same week of the baby's birth? Not many. Was he resting? Well...it appears to me that Moses is doing something at the inn, but he's certainly not circumcising his son.Perhaps he was preparing for something as holy as Shabbat? Or he figured he could return from Egypt in time to circumcise his son? Regardless, he was at the inn when HaShem approached him. This teaches us that Moses was first concerned (chronologically) with accommodations at the inn, more so than doing that which was cause for HaShem to show up at the inn, which was the performance of the mitzvah to circumcise his son.

So then Torah teaches us when a woman may step in a role preferred for men: when the men are not walking in proper priority concerning their obligations to Torah, and the result is death. Being out of Egypt and away from the Israelites, there was no other Jew (if I may use the term anachronistically) to perform the mitzvah of circumcision, her husband was not willing, so therefore in order to save his life (a greater mitzvah) she performed the mitzvah.

So enter Deborah, no one was else was a judge when Israel was being threatened, and she did her best to step up into a role reserved for men, acknowledging this, she did what she could do to save lives.

How does this halacha play out in congregations where there is no capable male leadership at the cost of lost lives due to disobedience? As R. Shaul even points out "the older women are to teach the younger." When Israel was being attacked for Israel's apostacy, there arose Deborah who judged Israel, just like when Moses was attacked for his apparent lack of proper priority concerning the mitzvah of circumcision, and there arose his wife Zipporah to do the circumcision.

I hope this helps bring some clarification.

Israel

[Israel]

It is interesting to note that Judges call Deborah a shofet. How else is this defined apart from Torah unless we hold the writer there to be adding to Torah?

Israel

[Matthew Davis]

Bryce,

Yes, I think the passages concerning the appointment of judges in both
Exodus 18 and Deuteronomy 16 may be applied to either sex. I see
nothing specifying that it only applies to men.

I don't have a Hebrew Bible with me, but my NASB says:

"You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your towns
which the Lord your G-d is giving you, according to your tribes, and
they shall judge the people with righteous judgement. You shall not
distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a
bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words
of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that
you may live and possess the land which the Lord your G-d is giving
you." (Deut 17:18-20)

Exodus 18:25 does specify that Moses took able men out of Israel and
made them heads over the people, but that is simply what Moses *did*,
not what the Law provides. He was acting on the advice of Yethro,
which is clearly states. Perhaps Moses was righteous in choosing only
men (as far as it says), but it is not necessarily so, as far as I can
tell.

-Matt

[Bryce Henderson]

Yes, she was a judge. However, her circumstances were unique. In the thousands of years since we haven't seen a situation where *ALL* the men of our people were wicked and no one was fit to lead. Hashem also once used a donkey to prophesy, but I haven't seen Him cause other donkeys since to do that. I think it is just as foolish to say that donkeys should be prophets in our midst because of that one instance as it is to say that women should lead our people because of His use of the righteous woman Deborah. I don't say this to compare women to donkeys, but to illustrate that the exception is just that — an exception.

[Israel]

Matt,

Everything in Torah is instructive. When it says Moses took men, it clearly added clarification as to who the authority is transmitted to. This means clearly that women are not intended to be shoftim at all. Just as it is not a mitzvah on the part of the wife to do circumcision, it is not a mitzvah for a judge to be a shofet. But it is a mitzvah for the father to circumcise the son (holding him down, providing for the arrangements, etc. whatever he can do), and it is a mitzvah for a shofet to be male.

It's like divorce. Marriage is mitzvah. Divorce is not. When divorce comes, it's because of sin - and it's something G-d provides for by regulating an already terrible outcome.

Israel

[Israel]

Meant to say that it's not a mitzvah for a woman to be judge, but it is a mitzvah for a woman to be a judge. This replaces my text where I wrote "it is not a mitzvah for a judge to be a shofet."

[Israel]

meant to say that I meant to say that:

it's not a mitzvah for a woman to be judge, but it is a mitzvah for a man to be a judge.

[Bryce Henderson]

Yes, it helps.

I don't know that I agree with the idea that Moses was "not willing" to circumcise his son. Perhaps he just didn't prioritize it correctly.

Now, I fully agree that women must step up when men aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. However, I see no support in Scripture or the traditions of our people for a woman to be ordained as a Rabbi. There is a difference between being an elder (like a wise old man or woman) and having the office of an elder. Yes, older women should teach the younger women how to love their husbands and such. However, those older women have no place judging His people in the gates — that is reserved for the wise men in our midst.

[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

I don't think it says that all the men were wicked and no one else was fit to lead.  In fact, I just went back and skimmed Judges 4-5, and there is no mention of WHY she's judging Israel, only that she WAS.  Unless I missed it (which is possible), I think there's a lot of assuming going on.

[Israel]

One has to inquire of Torah for the details as to how legally she can be a shofet, and only then when one understands that can one rightly have an assumption about how Deborah took up that role. If you have a better argument that the ones being presented so far, by all means, please share!

I personally would be interested at this point at looking at what other orthodox Jewish commentators say on the subject.

Shalom,

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

Judges 4:1 says, "The Children of Israel continued to do what was evil in the eyes of HASHEM...." They were ruled over by Canaanites! If the children of Israel are doing evil in His sight, then how is it that there are righteous men to lead His people? The only great person was Deborah. Even Barak, the man who led the army, wasn't good enough to lead the Children of Israel. He was even too timid to go to battle without her — that's not a man who is fit to lead a nation, is it? Deborah was a prophetess who heard from HASHEM. She judged our people in accordance with His will.

[Matthew Davis]

Israel,

I agree that everything in Torah is instructive, but just because it
says somebody did something doesn't necessarily mean it was exactly
what G-d would have preferred (unless of course that somebody was
Yeshua Mashiakh). It also does not say *why* Moses chose men. Don't
get me wrong, I think you are probably correct, but remember the first
rule of hermeneutics: it says what it says.

Bryce,

I believe that, technically speaking, we have no more true "Rabbis"
after Yeshua. I wish I could remember the scripture, but I believe it
says that He is now our only teacher, which is what "Rabbi" means. We
use the term now mostly as a traditional, loose term of respect for
our synagogue leaders, as I understand it. Somebody please correct me
if I am way off base here.

-Matt

[Bryce Henderson]

I think perhaps that He is our Great Rabbi, so it isn't wrong for men
to be Rabbis — as long as they raise up disciples to Him and not
themselves. Perhaps one the the actual Rabbis in our midst can give a
more thorough answer.

[Bryce Henderson]

Yes, it does say what it says. The words of Yisro, which *are* Torah,
say that we are to select *men*.

"And you shall discern from among the entire people, men of
accomplishment, God-fearing people, men of truth, people who despise
money, and you shall appoint them leaders of thousands, leaders of
hundreds, leaders of fifties, and leaders of tens."

On 29-Dec-09, at 11:23 PM, Matthew Davis wrote:

[Matthew Davis]

I suppose another good question would be: where Yethro says "men," is
it a Hebrew word only ever used to refer specifically to males, or
could it possibly used in the general, neuter sense (as in, "Peace on
Earth, goodwill towards men")? Might someone with a better knowledge
of biblical Hebrew be able to help?

Here is the passage:

ואתה תחזה מכל העם אנשי חיל יראי אלהים אנשי אמת שנאי בצע ושמת עלהם שרי
אלפים שרי מאות שרי חמשים ושרי עשרת׃

-Matt

[Israel]

It depends on how late you want to stay up. :) Rabbi Hubner should be online within the hour.

The verse in question is Matt 23

 ⁸"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

 ⁹"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

 ¹⁰"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Obviously if we take Yeshua at face value, it means we can't call our dad's "abba" or "father." yet Isaac called Abraham "Abi" "My Father." So we can't say Yeshua is nullifying Isaac's ability to call Avraham "father" (in the Akeidah).

So then we see this loosening of the hermeneutic with the related scriptures in verse 8 and 10. In historical context, he is referring to the practice of rabbis and disciples whereby the acts of disciples were expected to honor one's rabbi more so than their own earthly fathers (Yeshua does the same) and expected disciples to also even be willing to prostrate before them - a position of deep respect that borders on idolatry. The expectation fits in line with the puffing up of one's pride as explained in the verses preceeding:

 ⁶"They ^(G)love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

 ⁷and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called ^(H)Rabbi by men.

Since Yeshua could not add or subtract from Torah, the prohibitions he gives falls in line with the Torah prohibiting idolatry. It is meant to be understood as a fence against idolatry in that the practices of such who "love the place of honor" were not to be so honored by the expectations of becoming their disciple, and thus be expected to call them "rabbi" "father" and "teacher" with all the near-idolatrous expectations that went with that. That this choice of submission is the context is understood in the previous verse yet still:

 ²saying: "^(B)The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

 ³therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

So we submit to the rulings of the Sages and the Sanhedrin, but we are not to be like hypocrites as they are who say one thing and do another - who testify the Shema and themselves act in the place of our Father in heaven by "loving the places of honor" reserved for HaShem.

Shalom,

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

Yes, it is "men of accomplishment" (אַנְשֵׁי־חַיִל), not "women of accomplishment" (אֵֽשֶׁת־חַיִל) like in Proverbs 31:10.

Here is the Strong's entry for the word translated "men" in the text:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H582&t=KJV

[Israel]

The word is anshi - the first significant mention is in Gen 18 when three men showed up after Abraham was circumcised - and they consisted as a beit din to certify his conversion and witness the mikveh after which he could then enter the tent of Torah study along with his wife.

[Israel]

Its anshim in Gen 18.

[Matthew Davis]

Israel,

A very good teaching on the scripture. Thank you.

Bryce,

The link and definition you've provided (somewhat to my surprise)
gives weight to my point regarding Hebrew's being male-presumptive,
and so one could take "men" to simple mean "people." This site says
it is commonly used to refer to the human race.

-Matt

> ...
>
> [Message clipped]

[Jacques Kotze]

Shalom all,

 

The natural order of Hashem we all understand very well, that is Hashem, Messiah, Husbands, Wives and then children.

 

Eph 5:22 Wives, subject yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Master. Eph 5:23 Because the husband is head of the wife, as also the Messiah is head of the assembly, and He is Saviour of the body. Eph 5:24 But as the assembly is subject to Messiah, so also let the wives be to their own husbands in every respect. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Messiah also did love the assembly and gave Himself for it,

 

If each one knows his/her role without the idea of being better than the other, no one needs to strive for the position of leadership. 

 

Ideally, when it comes to teaching of Torah, men should teach men, and the likewise women should teach women, especially on issues regarding only men or only women. On the other hand we can all learn from one another, men from women and women from men and above all, not neglecting teaching our children. Keeping Hashem's order in mind, men ought to take the leadership role in congregations as men are the husbands, fathers and priests of their homes. Obviously not in a dominating self serving sense but as Y'shua gave his life to the assembly so a husband is to give his life for his wife and likewise the leader gives his for the congregation.

 

Do we find women serving as priests in the Beit HaMikdash? It is unheard of. Would that be because they are inferior? Absolutely not. They have a far greater calling in their role as wives and mothers, which men, even if they tried, could not fulfil as a woman does.

 

If we die to self and serve our fellow man and understand each our role, the natural order would be firm in place. The bottom line the Torah teaches us is to change our will to recieve for ourselves alone into a will to recieve in order to benefit others with the primary purpose to please Hashem. 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Israel

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:44 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

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[Bryce Henderson]

Matt — It is painfully obvious that the text is referring to males of
our species and not females. This is how it has been understood for
thousands of years. Why are you so interested in trying to establish
that Hashem appoints women to be rulers over our people?

[Israel]

Bryce, Let's try and keep inquires about personal reasons for defending this doctrine or that doctrine out of this mailing list. Trust me from experience, such inquiries serve no real scholarly purpose. Regardless of one's personal reasons for holding to something, personal reasons aren't what are being discussed here. What's being discussed here is Torah. To this end, I would ask that everyone refrain from resorting to asking personal questions on a public mailing list.

I'm interested in how Torah can explain how Deborah can be a shofet.

Shalom,

Israel

[Matthew Davis]

Bryce,

Well, firstly, just because something has been understood one way for
thousands of years doesn't mean it's correct. To say the least, as
Messianic Jews, we know that most of our Jewish brothers and sisters
have had a misunderstanding about Messiah for a very long time.

And my personal interest in this debate is simply that I am not
personally 100% convinced, and so it bothers me when others are and I
am not. It may be painfully obvious to you, but it is not to me. My
hypothesis could be quite wrong, but I do not feel that it has yet
been disproven. I seek conviction either way. I seek truth, and in
so doing I tend to argue wherever there is room to argue,
intellectually.

Regarding Deborah's being a shofet... Scripture does note that Deborah
understood the problems with her being a woman in a leadership
position, and this is clear from her warning to Barak. She had an
understanding that in the eyes of the people, she was not equal, as a
leader, to men. However, the scripture makes no fuss over the fact
that she is a judge in the first place. It states matter-of-factly,
"Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel
at that time," and that "sons of Israel came up to her for judgment."
We could read into this that her being a prophetess and wife were her
qualifications... but it does not state that these were *prerequisite*
qualifications.

And G-d subdued Jabin through Deborah and her warrior. Yes, she was
an exception as a female shofet, but what about her made her
exceptional? There were other female prophets. Perhaps it was little
more than the fact that she gave good judgment, and was a G-d-fearing
and capable leader. And if these were her qualifications that made
her exceptional... cannot other women with these qualifications fill a
similar exceptional role? If not, why not?

Oh, and I'm going to bed... ;-)

-Matt

[Bryce Henderson]

If you choose to not believe the teachings of the Sages and clear
meaning of Scripture — that men are to be the leaders of our people
— then that is your choice. I am sorry, but I joined this list to
discuss orthodoxy and not egalitarian ideas, so I really don't think
that I'll have more to say on this topic. It is painfully clear to me
that Biblical society is Patriarchal.

I believe that there are many plagues in our Body that we need to
address. One of those ideas is that women are supposed to sometimes
lead our people. We can talk about the passages of Scripture that
address leadership, but people who will not listen will not listen.
There are countless scholarly papers written by Feminists "proving"
that women can be elders. Ultimately, this matter is only understood
by His Spirit. I agree that women are capable of being great leaders,
but it is men that Hashem has said are to lead His people. I think
that it is sinful when women usurp the authority of men. I also cannot
stand discussing doctrinal ideas that seek to legitimize rebellion.

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[Chaya]

i hope you don't mind me jumping into this conversation.

let me state this right at the beginning: i do not want to become a
Rabbi, it would not be my place to be.

i haven't read all of this conversation, but i am having a lot of
trouble with the issue(s) discussed. it may not be so, but i feel like
now it is again men who are discussing about my life, about what i am to
do and what not, treating me like some "thing" to be put into this or
that corner.

i have lived through a lot of difficult things like assault, rape and
abuse -and have been told by christians that it was me who had to
repent, even if i was only 4 years old when the first time happened -
because i'm a descendant of Eve. i was told to not go to university, and
to keep quiet -because a woman should not learn. needless to say, i
started to build up a lot of distrust against men, and the way they used
me -believers or not. i statred to find christianity to be mysogynistic
and was in a lot of revolt. i studied a lot of feminist theology, which
on one hand i liked and it helped because i felt like my pains and rage
and disappointments were taken serious -men just told me to shove it and
be humble- but with time, i felt like the feminist theology took it too
far, simply reversing male-dominance to female-dominance, neither being
good. we should work hand in hand, each according to their gifts.

on my way back home to Judaism, i started reading a lot of Chabad, and
even though there are no women Rabbis, it didn't bother me. i did not
feel oppressed and discriminated against. actually, i started to feel
very much honored and valued; the things i read in Torah, and on Chabad
made me feel very special; in a way, like a queen even. i don't need to
be a Rabbi. my mindset changed a lot: i find it so important to raise my
children. raising my children is like directing the world: the way we
women raise our children, in a way is deciding on how the world will
become - giving life, what an extra-ordinary gift and power! by
welcoming shabbat, by preparing food for the table, by welcoming guests
i feel like a priestess in her own sanctuary. it is a whole big and
imprtant job to keep that up!

at the same time, i feel divided, and maybe it is a scar that will
always stay: whilst i agree with Torah, i have a hard time with men
discussing it. i don't know if you can understand this? when men speak
about women staying at home and raising children and women having to be
happy with that, it feels like they just say so they they can have all
the power - even though i agree that it is one of my greatest joys and
privileges to stay at home raising my children, and if my son would
become a scholar and a Rabbi, i would be the most honored woman in the
world.

not having the pressure of "having to become a Rabbi" takes a lot of
pressure off my shoulders. here in the reformed church in our region,
there are hardly any pastors, and so there is a lot of pressure on
theology students to become pastors. this here, i don't have. i try to
enjoy it. yet at the same time, i have my academic mind and
intelligence. i am studying at university, and i enjoy teaching. and i
see no wrong in teaching, also men. but i think it depends also on what
i teach. i enjoy teaching history, culture, language(s), on how to do
exegesis and such; but i would not try to take up and teach thing a
Rabbi, an elder, or a Rebbe would teach. i feel like there's a
difference. i enjoy teaching children and adolescents. is that wrong?
what are your thoughts? like i said, i am horribly split.

i support the JC 2.0 Vision whilst having troubles with it. but maybe
they are just linked with what i lived through. the problem is with
certain men (males) using authority in a wrong way, leaving no place for
women to breathe and use their HaShem given gifts - the problem is not
with Torah.

i would like to know more about Miriam being a model for female
leadership. could you expound more on that, please? instead of talking
about what we cannot do, say what we can do! i love writing poetry,
music, dancing, singing, art and painting, but also academic studies and
pursuit - like, in what ways could i put that into use?

sorry, this got way too long...

Chaya

[Bryce Henderson]

Thanks a lot for sharing. Personally, I wouldn't even think of talking
about women being Rabbis if it weren't something that modern people
are pushing for and some on this list promote. Like I've already said,
I joined this list to discuss orthodoxy and learn more about Torah.

What about women teaching courses in a university? That isn't
something that I've thought about a lot. However, I think that the
prohibition is on teaching/judging matters of faith with authority. I
don't see any reason why I cannot learn about Physics or Cooking from
a woman.

[David Israel]

Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
 

David

---

From: Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 December, 2009 17:57:46
Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org..

[Chaya]

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.

David Israel a �crit :

> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
>

> *David*

[Israel]

You don't have to add to the riling up ya know. ;)

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.

David Israel a écrit :

> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
>

> *David*

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[Israel]

Let's please keep the sensitives of our female members in mind when approaching the subject from a scholarly perspective. Let's build them up.

I was asked how Miriam is a role model of leadership for women. Shall we open a discussion on this?

Israel

[David Israel]

NOT AT ALL> I wasn`t reproving you.. maybe I was just being freindly and protective. wanna talk to me some? Id love to talk with you. (big smile)

Shalom Blessings
 PS Whatever you do or don`t do - do not SHUT UP -- ok? or then I might just reprove ya (lol)

David

---

From: Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wed, 30 December, 2009 19:21:44

Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.

David Israel a écrit :

> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
> 
> *David*

[David Israel]

AMEN brother. and lets be sure when we are being sensitive we are fully and correctly handling and dividing the Word of truth AS well as reflecting the mind of God in Moshiach ha.

Blessings to you as ever I appreciate our perspective and insight my brother. 

Shalom Blessings
 

David

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 December, 2009 19:27:00

Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

Let's please keep the sensitives of our female members in mind when approaching the subject from a scholarly perspective. Let's build them up.

I was asked how Miriam is a role model of leadership for women. Shall we open a discussion on this?

Israel

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

You don't have to add to the riling up ya know. ;)

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.



David Israel a écrit :

> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
>

> *David*

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

[leg...@arkoftestimony.org]

- Chaya -

Absolutely love what you described re the role of us women in raising children!:

"raising my children is like directing the world: the way we

women raise our children, in a way is deciding on how the world will 
become - giving life, what an extra-ordinary gift and power! by 
welcoming shabbat, by preparing food for the table, by welcoming guests 
i feel like a priestess in her own sanctuary."

Beautiful analogy!

Now that is authority! ;-)

Please keep sharing your insights! Also, curious you mention Reform? I was just invited to a Torah study at a Reform congregation.

Be Blessed!

Legale 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

From: David Israel <eliy...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wed, December 30, 2009 12:36 pm
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

NOT AT ALL> I wasn`t reproving you.. maybe I was just being freindly and protective. wanna talk to me some? Id love to talk with you. (big smile)

Shalom Blessings
 PS Whatever you do or don`t do - do not SHUT UP -- ok? or then I might just reprove ya (lol)

David

---

From: Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 December, 2009 19:21:44

Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.



David Israel a écrit :
> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
> 
> *David*

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[Bryce Henderson]

Yes, I'm interested in learning about the lessons of Miriam's life.

[David Israel]

Hi Israel; ok I hear ya - but - well maybe I do. sometimes it does get riled and you know that as well as I do. and we don`t need that far more than we don`t need the reminders. ok?

Shalom blessings my friend. 

Keep a true perspective in ALL things. 
 Wee need wisdom more than understanding right now. don`t ya agree? 

David

---

From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 December, 2009 21:23:53

Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

Yes, I'm interested in learning about the lessons of Miriam's life.

On 30-Dec-09, at 12:27 PM, Israel wrote:

Let's please keep the sensitives of our female members in mind when approaching the subject from a scholarly perspective. Let's build them up.

I was asked how Miriam is a role model of leadership for women. Shall we open a discussion on this?

Israel

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

You don't have to add to the riling up ya know. ;)

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.



David Israel a écrit :

> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
>

> *David*

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[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

I don't have anything to point out, and I really don't have a firm perspective either way, at least as far as judges and elders go, so I err on the side of conservatism.  HOWEVER, "rabbi" is not a Biblical office, and therefore the rules of who can and can't be a rabbi, what the authority and responsibility of such an office is, etc., are up to the ordaining body.

----- Original Message -----

From: Israel

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

One has to inquire of Torah for the details as to how legally she can be a shofet, and only then when one understands that can one rightly have an assumption about how Deborah took up that role. If you have a better argument that the ones being presented so far, by all means, please share!

I personally would be interested at this point at looking at what other orthodox Jewish commentators say on the subject.

Shalom,

Israel

>>>>>>>> could mean that a community appoints a leader, which R. Shaul
>>>>>>>> encourages
>>>>>>>> that we do when there are "disagreements." That appointment,
>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>>> follows Torah guidelines on appointing shoftim - where we are
>>>>>>>> commanded to
>>>>>>>> appoint shoftim in the Land.
>>>>>>>>

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>>>> This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we
>>>> recommend you change your delivery options to “Daily Summary”
>>>> or “Abridged."
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[Rabbi Adam J Bernay]

I don't understand how this is a response to my point.  Just because Barak wasn't fit doesn't mean there was or was not another man both fit AND willing to lead.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bryce Henderson

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:21 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] The Jerusalem Council 2.0 Vision

Judges 4:1 says, "The Children of Israel continued to do what was evil in the eyes of HASHEM...." They were ruled over by Canaanites! If the children of Israel are doing evil in His sight, then how is it that there are righteous men to lead His people? The only great person was Deborah. Even Barak, the man who led the army, wasn't good enough to lead the Children of Israel. He was even too timid to go to battle without her — that's not a man who is fit to lead a nation, is it? Deborah was a prophetess who heard from HASHEM. She judged our people in accordance with His will.

[Michelle Braddy]

Tracy Michelle Braddy

On Dec 30, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Yes, I'm interested in learning about the lessons of Miriam's life.

On 30-Dec-09, at 12:27 PM, Israel wrote:

Let's please keep the sensitives of our female members in mind when approaching the subject from a scholarly perspective. Let's build them up.

I was asked how Miriam is a role model of leadership for women. Shall we open a discussion on this?

Israel

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

You don't have to add to the riling up ya know. ;)

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.

i am sorry.



David Israel a écrit :

> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about
> the role and function of women in the ekklesia? what really|?????
>

> *David*

[Pandora Patton]

How Miriam (ala Moshe's sister) was an example to us:

1) She knew when to lead the people in rejoicing. Worship is an important event and custom to bond people together in receiving the presence of Eloneinu. They needed that strength to overcome the hardships they were experiencing.

2) In the reverse she was an example of what not to do when she (and Aaron, Moshe's brother) questioned his leadership. They were experiencing sibling rivalry and fleshly thinking. And she received leprosy for it.  Follow the anointing and don't reason in the natural flesh.

3) After that she submitted to leadership, which can come from Eloheinu to anybody. She realized God's anointing rested on her brother and backed him up. King David was the youngest son, and he went through ribbing by his brothers as well.

Shalom Y'All

[Marganit]

I did not feel that Chaya's post was inappropriate or "hot under the
collar" at all.

On Dec 30 2009, 11:21 am, Chaya <ch...@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> i am sorry. i did not mean to offend. maybe i should have just shut up.
>
> i am sorry.
>

> David Israel a crit :> Are we really getting so riled up and hot under the dog collar about

[Bryce Henderson]

Yes, none of us do. David already apologised for his comment. Shalom.

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[Bryce Henderson]

Israel — Do you have time to relate how Miriam is a role model for female leadership?

[Israel]

How Miriam is a role model for female leadership?

- Because she is mentioned in the Torah in a positive light, in that houses were built for her and her monther (battai).


Miriam saved her brother Moses, Exodus 1:15-21 2:4-8.

- Because of this, she demonstrated the individual responsibility a woman has to Torah, can result in the bringing forth of a savior of the people.

- But because she "saved" all the other babies too, she merited having battai (houses, with many allegories to it) built for her (and her mother).


The song of Miriam, Exodus 15:20-21.

- Responsible for giving praise to HaShem when it was due.
- Led such praise by commanding the people herself, but within the song, and thus by her example: "sing to the L-RD"
- the fact that the women were ready with tambourines signifies that they were prepared before hand by their leader (Miriam) in anticipation of the redemption, having greater faith than the men according to some commentaries.
- the fact that they are rejoicing in the wilderness before entering the Land also shows her leadership role in establishing the expectation of their final redemption and the aliyah to the Land.

Miriam’s ordeal, Numbers 12.
- was submitted to Torah and the proper order of authority established by G-d.
- after she was rebuked for her error in judgment and subsequent words, she never again talked out of place.

Miriam’s death, Numbers 20:1-2.

- her merit brought about water for the Israelites in the desert, and it's after her death that there is no more water.
- water can represent the life of Messiah, in that she was so much of an example, that people could learn from it the attributes of Messiah, even though she is not recorded to have said another word in Torah.
- furthermore, the "well" of Miriam is said to have increased the people's understanding of Torah, as "be'er" well, the same letters also means "interpretation."
- this well came from a rock, which followed Israel in the desert. This rock is also mentioned in the apostolic writings.


We learn from Miriam that women lead by example, and lead the other women by both example and with words. We find this is true with Zipporah - she neither debated with Moses. She simply did what was right when no other righteous option was available. We also learn that it is in their merit that a greater blessing is bestowed upon the congregation as a whole, simply because they are examples of faith whereas men are traditionally not.

Hope that helps.

Some of this is corroborated in these Chabad articles I found (they are worth the read):

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380282/jewish/The-Prophetess-of-Redemption.htm
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/248870/jewish/Miriam-Tambourines-of-Rebellion.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112396/jewish/Miriam.htm

Shalom,

Israel ben Betzalel