The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)

[Kosta Guyer]

 

 

Shalom My Brothers,

Here is an indepth article form my teacher Reuven Goossens which is given here in Three Parts, which clarifies the understanding of the Hebrew name of God and the Messiah and why we should use them.

 

 

hwhy YHVH

The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)

Part One “Magnify His Name”

This study, I pray, will touch and uplift every believer, for in it we are going to rediscover the wonderful Name of YHVH Elohim (the LORD G-d), blessed be His holy Name! Most pastors and teachers of the Word, tend to leave this subject well alone. However, I believe it to be a subject of great importance, and one that should be dealt with. The Word tells me, that I am a child, a son of the living Elohim, in and through the precious name of “His only begotten Son.” Thus, if I am a son of the living Elohim, blessed be He, then I have the right to know my Father’s Name!

“I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty” 2 Corinthians 6:18.

As sons and daughters of the living Elohim, we often praise our heavenly Father by singing, “Magnify His Name in all the earth.” Also, when we pray that beautiful prayer, our Messiah taught us, we say, “Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name.” If we think about it, we will realise that we often say “Thy Name” or “His Name” but never actually use the Name of our Elohim (G-d). I am speaking of that wonderful Name, which was given to us in His Word.
In this study, we are going to delve deep into this special subject, and by the end I pray, we will be able to “Magnify His NAME in all the earth” by pronouncing, and using His wonderful Name. Hallelujah.

“You shall love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength” Deuteronomy 6:5.

As an orthodox Hebrew (Jew), I was taught never to use the blessed Name of Elohim as given to us in “Ha Davar,” – “The Word.” Therefore, we Hebrews pronounce it as, “Adonai” meaning “Lord.” In the Tenach (incorrectly called the Old Testament), wherever the four-letter Name of Elohim occurs in Hebrew (hwhy the Tetragrammaton), it is written in English as “LORD” in capital letters. The question we should ask, are the words, ”God” or “LORD” the actual name of our Heavenly Father? Certainly not, for both these words are attributes of the Almighty Elohim, blessed be He, they are NOT names!
However, now being “born again” and a child of the living Elohim, filled with His Spirit, I sought Abba (Father) Elohim, regarding the blessed “memorial Name,” which He proclaimed in Exodus 3:15. After much prayer, and seeking an answer from Father Elohim, I received one, therefore this work, which is presented to you in faith and love, as a brother in the Messiah.
What then, is the Name we should love above all others? Our parents name? Our children’s name? Or our own name? No, the Name we should love above all others is the blessed Name of our heavenly Father and that of His precious Son. We should also realise that the Name of Elohim is included in the name of our blessed Messiah. Most are content to call our heavenly Father, and His “only begotten Son” by an assortment of accepted English titles and substitutes, like God, LORD, or Lord, Messiah and Christ. We should understand that none of these are actual Names. All of the aforementioned are in fact attributes and titles and they must be defined, for sadly in these “latter days,” there are many “gods” and “christs.” (Read 1 Corinthians 8:5 and Matthew 24:5).
The faithful in the Messiah are well aware that there is only one true Elohim, the Creator, the Almighty Elohim, blessed be He! However, other faiths and cults use the same words as those in the TRUTH. Words and titles like, God, Lord, Christ and Almighty, when referring to their gods. Therefore it is important that we, the faithful in Messiah, define what we mean when using these terms.
It is for this reason I believe, it is important that we the faithful to know the “memorial Name” of our Elohim and the true name of His Son, our Messiah and Saviour! Why is it so important? Because for so long, the pagan Church of Rome has influenced the greater “Church,” with its vile doctrine and has changed the perception of “the LORD God” and their “Christ” to the point that many “Christians” have began to think of “the Christ” as being “a Christian,” rather than a Hebrew (a Judean). During a diner discussion with a senior pastor (who happens to be a Knight of the Realm, and a Doctor of Theology) some time back, brother Kosta  mentioned about “Jesus’ Hebrew heritage.” Upon hearing this, the pastor exploded, and protested with great indignation and condemned the statement as being “a typical Jewish lie.” It is simply beyond belief, that a man who apparently spent many years at theological college, does not understand the Messiah’s Hebrew background. Or was our Messiah NOT from the House of David? According to the Word, the Messiah and his apostles celebrated all the “Feasts of YHVH - the LORD” and spoke of themselves as being Judean’s (Jews). Tragically, this so-called “man of God” had no conception of who our beloved Messiah really was. Having lost the Memorial Name of Elohim, and the actual name of the Messiah, has meant that “the Church” has gone astray, due to their lack of understanding of the Word and its Hebrew origin. Thus, the many cults. Many feel that Elohim does not need a Name. If this is true, why then … “Praise His Name?”
I believe, as we come close to Messiah’s return for his faithful, the faithful should know the Name of their Elohim and that of His only begotten Son. We are to praise and magnify Elohim’s Name in all our homes, fellowships, and lands, in order we may be a witness, of who the true and only Elohim is!
The 1973 edition of the Revised Standard Version (1946) Bible expresses the following about the “Name of the LORD God:

“(1) The word ‘Jehovah’ does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and, (2) the use of any proper Name for the one and only true God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”

These translators managed to get it so right, and yet, so terribly wrong! The first point is entirely true, “Jehovah” is NOT the Name of the LORD Elohim, blessed be He, and I will explain later why this is so. Point two however is totally wrong. In fact, it is false teaching!
The personal Name of Elohim was regularly pronounced up to the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE. Thereafter, around 300 BCE, Israel refrained from uttering the holy Name, out of what could be called extreme reverence for the LORD Elohim. Instead the people of Israel commenced to use the word “Adonai” rather than the four-letter Name of Elohim. “Adonai” in Hebrew means “Lord.” Wherever the Tetragrammaton is quoted in the Word, it is always written as “LORD.” However, the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy was, and is still written in all the Tenach (called the Old Testament), be it in book form, or in Scrolls of the Torah (Five Books of Moses). In fact the four-letter Name of Elohim is quoted 6007 times in the Tenach! Thus, be assured in the Hebrew Scriptures, the use of the blessed Name of Elohim, hwhy YHVH, was never “discontinued.” In addition, for the RSV to maintain that it is inappropriate for the LORD Elohim to have a Name is absurd! We all have names, and the LORD Elohim has a Name. It is important that we know the one and only true Elohim and His Son, by Name, for this will make our relationship more personal. Should a child of Elohim not know their Father's Name?
How often have we prayed the “Lord’s Prayer” and spoken these words, “Hallowed be Thy Name.” Alternatively we have sung, “Glorify Thy Name in all the earth.” Yet it is strange, we do this without thinking, not actually knowing or mentioning His Name? Some might say, “but Reuben, I know the Name of God. It is Jehovah!” Beloved, the truth is, this is a name, which was erroneously created by man. It is NOT the Name revealed in the Word, by the LORD Elohim, blessed be His holy Name!
That Christian cult, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, will tell you that they are “the only Church who are called by the name of god.” The sad fact is, they have embraced a false name, and a false god, for Jehovah is NOT the name of “YHVH - the LORD of Hosts!” Sadly much of the “Christian” world also use it, and the King James Bible uses “Jehovah” eight times. Some Bibles use it up to several thousand times. Praise the LORD Elohim a number of translations, the like of the New King James, the New American Standard, the New International and the New England Bibles totally reject the Name of “Jehovah.” There is another popular version of the blessed Name of Elohim, this being “Yahweh.” Rather than “Jehovah,” this has been the closest pronunciation to date, but is still not quite correct. By now you will be asking “What then is the blessed Name of the LORD our Elohim?” The next chapter, beloved, will reveal the fullness thereof, for YHVH Elohim, blessed be His wonderful Name, desires you to know His “memorial Name!”

“Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘hwhy YHVH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations’” Exodus 3:15.

Part Two - The Sacred Name Revealed

The Name of the LORD Elohim, YHVH - hwhy including “Yah” - hy is written a total of 6,053 times in the Tenach (the Hebrew Scriptures). When my Hebrew brethren read the Name, as stated before, it is pronounced as “Adonai” which translates as “Lord.” Some Hebrew communities prefer to say “Ha SHEM,” which literally means “the Name.” Ancient Hebrew did not have vowels until the Masorites, in the 9^thcentury AD, began to use vowel signs. They decided to place the vowel points of Adonai under the consonants of hwhy YHVH. Their intention was not to create a new word, but rather to indicate to the Children of Israel, that “Adonai” was to be pronounced when hwhy YHVH was written in the Holy Scriptures. The first vowel was changed from “a” to an “eh” making the sound “Yeh,” rather than “Yah.”
The reason for the avoidance of pronouncing the blessed Name of Elohim, was a misunderstanding of the third commandment.

“Thou shalt not take the Name of hwhy - YHVH thy Elohim in vain” Exodus 20:7 and Deuteronomy 5:11.

If we study the Hebrew, the full meaning of this verse will be discovered.

“You shall not swear falsely by the Name of hwhy YHVH your Elohim”

Those that love the LORD Elohim will realise that every time we say “Hallelujah” we pronounce the Name of Elohim. Hallelu’Yah. “Hallel” means “Praise,” and “Yah” is the blessed Name, of the LORD our Elohim!
The hybrid name of “Yehovah” came about in the 16^thcentury, by theologians who read the consonants hwhy YHVH and the vowels of yn:doa] Adonai, mistakenly believing the word to be “Yehovah.” Later it became “Jehovah” when the letter “J” was introduced to the English alphabet. Thereafter this name gained acceptance in most circles. In the 19^thcentury the grave mistake was recognised and many theologians rejected the name. However, having said all this, the last three letters of “Jehovah” are in fact correct, as we will soon see.
My Hebrew brethren believe that only the Messiah will accurately pronounce the Name of Elohim. He certainly did and he will again! However, there is a precious prophecy, which tells us:

“Therefore MY people SHALL know MY NAME, therefore they shall know in that day that I am He who speaks: ‘Behold, it is I’” Isaiah 52:6.

As the faithful in the Messiah are the people of Elohim, we should know Elohim’s Name! Did you notice that this page actually contains the correct Name of Elohim. Did you pick it?
At this point let us investigate the origins of the letters hwhy YHVH.
YHVH is a verbal form of the root “hvh,” which is an older variant of the root “hava” which means, “to be, shall be, to exist.” As this is in the future tense, it therefore means “He that causes to be, He brings into existence.”
If we choose the vowels of “hava” – “to be” and transpose them on YHVH, the blessed Name of Elohim becomes YaH'VaH. Many Bible teachers seem to believe that the letter w “v” should be pronounced as a ”w” thus the word “Yahweh.” The fact is, the Ashkenasi Hebrew pronunciation of the letter w “vav” is V, as in Valour. Therefore the pronunciation of the most blessed Name is “Yah'vah.” However, the Sephardi Hebrews may pronounce the letter w “vav” as a “W” thus the Name would then be pronounced as “Yah’wah.” I know that both would be pleasing to our Elohim! “Praise His Holy Name!”
These are the declensions of the root “hava.” Hava is a primitive root meaning to “breathe” – “to be” (in the sense of existence). “Avah” means, to “wish for,” “covet,” (greatly) “desire,” be “desirous,” to “long” (after). “Hayah” means, “to exist,” i.e. “be” or “become,” “come to pass.” Only three other instances of “hava” are preserved in Hebrew. They are as follows.

1. Ecclesiastes 2:22 “For what has man for all his labour, and for the striving of his heart with which he has toiled under the sun?”

2. Genesis 27:29 “Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, and let your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, and blessed be those who bless you!”

3. Isaiah 16:4 “Let My outcasts dwell with you, O Moab; be a shelter to them from the face of the spoiler. For the extortioner is at an end, devastation ceases, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.”

hwhy – YHVH, Yahvah appears in seven passages where the Name of Elohim is particularly stressed

“I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as Elohim Almighty, but by My Name, yhwh Yahvah, I was not known to them” Exodus 6:3.

In this verse the word for Elohim is la, “EL”  as in “G-d the Almighty.” Thus the word “Elohim” is the “attribute” of our heavenly Father Yah’vah. This word also refers to pagan gods in the Scriptures, thus Yahvah Elohim emphasises that “My Name is hwhy YHVH - Yahvah.”
A simple explanation might be as follows. HRH “Queen Elisabeth” of Great Britain and HRH “Queen Beatrix” of the Netherlands are both “The Queen,” which is their “title.” But, their Names are in fact “Elizabeth” and “Beatrix.” Therefore, as with the Queen, the word “Elohim” refers to His title, His attribute, but “Yahvah” is His wonderful and blessed “Memorial Name.”
Yahvah our Elohim has told us in His Word that His Name should be known by His children, for sadly, there are many false gods worshipped in the world. We must therefore distinguish who our Elohim is, He is, Yahvah Elohim, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all that is therein!
The Scriptures gives us many examples,

“That they may know that You, whose Name alone is hwhy YHVH - Yahvah, are the Most High over all the earth” Psalms 83:18.

“Behold, Elohim is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For YAH, our hwhy YHVH - Yahvah, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation” Isaiah 12:2.

“Your Name hwhy YHVH - Yahvah, endureth forever; and your renown Yahvah throughout all generations” Psalms 135:13

“Even Yahvah Elohim of hosts. hwhy YHVH - Yahvah is His memorable Name” Hosea 12:5.

“Moreover Elohim said to Moses, ‘Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘hwhy Yahvah the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations’” Exodus 3:15.

In each of these verses the importance is placed on the blessed Name of Elohim, and for it is to be a “memorial to all generations.” What is meant by the word ”memorial?”
The word memorial in Exodus is yrkz “Zichri.” The word is from rk,zE “Zecher,” which is a primitive root meaning to “mark,” to “remember” and to “mention.” The word mention also appears in Jeremiah 20:9.

“Then I said, ‘I will not make mention of Him, nor speak any more in His Name.’”

The word “mention” is the same Hebrew word as “memorial.” Without doubt, we are taught in the Word to make “mention of the Name of Yahvah Elohim,” not only with our mind but also with our mouths. The priests and Rabbis eventually hid the pronunciation of the Divine Name, as they feared that individuals could, even accidentally blaspheme the precious Name of Elohim. However, Yahvah Elohim, blessed be His holy Name, desires us, as His sons and daughters, to use and to mention His Name, and not to hide it, for it is a “memorial to all generations.”
I am sure none of us would like it, if our loved ones always called us Mr, or Mrs, rather than by our given names. I know, I certainly would not. Thus it is with Yahvah our Elohim. In the Word He commands us to call Him by His Name and not just by His attributes. Our blessed Messiah said,

“And I have declared to them Your Name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved me may be in them, and I in them” John 17:26.

The obvious question being what did our Messiah call His Father? It is unimaginable to believe that Messiah would have said, “Elohim your Father has two Names, one is Adonai (LORD) and the other is Elohim (G-d).” No, he, as the Word states, “declared,” or “revealed” “Your Name” and therefore the apostles would have known and understood the titles of El Shaddai, Elohim Almighty and His memorial Name, Yahvah.
It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the “Books of the Messiah” (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek. At a closer examination, we will find many verses where the holy Name of Elohim occurs in their writing.

Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of hwhy Yahvah (the LORD)” Matthew 21:9. See also Matthew 23:39, Mark 11:9, Luke 13:35 and John 12:13.

We must remember, that this verse is a direct quotation from Psalms 118:26. There the Hebrew says, “in the Name of hwhy - Yahvah.”

Again – “hwhy Yahvah said unto my Lord, sit at My right hand” Matthew 22:44. From Psalms 110:1.

Each of these verses, and many others quoted in the writings of the apostles, come directly from Tenach, which always uses the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy Yahvah. Thus, it is my firm belief that the apostles who had received from the Messiah the declaration, and the revelation of Elohim 's Name, used it in their original writings of the Gospels, especially when they were writing down direct quotes from the Tenach.

The book of Revelation has this quote from “The song of Moses, the servant of Elohim, and the song of the Lamb, saying: ‘Great and marvellous are Your works, Yahvah El Shaddai - (the LORD G-d Almighty)! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Yahvah, and glorify Your Name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You” Revelation15:3-4.

To me this proves that the Name of Yahvah Elohim has not changed, and that all the faithful out of the nations, and those of Israel will know His Name! Another thought in relation to the usage on the holy Name in the “Books of the Messiah” is this. In Revelation the phrase “Hallelu'Yah” is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name “Yah,” which is the short version of Yahvah. Some have said that the word “LORD,” “Adonai” or “Kurios” was used in the apostles quotations, and not the Tetragrammaton. No! As I have already stated earlier, when the four-letter Name of Elohim hwhy appears in Scripture, Hebrews might say “Adonai,” or “HaShem” (the Name), however, to this day, when writing the Name of Elohim on Torah Scrolls, the scribes always write Elohim’s Name as, hwhy. Thus, the Name was never lost or forgotten in the written form. Thus, the very Hebraic apostles would have also used hwhy Yahvah in their manuscripts, as they wrote the Gospels. From language styles compared with the Tenach translation to the Greek, the Septuagint, it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek. One argument is that Aramaic was the language of the day, thus it should have been written in Aramaic. It is also claimed, by another Sydney TV pastor, that the Messiah went about speaking and teaching in perfect Greek. What, speaking Greek to the Hebrew peasants and fishermen, who only knew Aramaic and Hebrew? It must not be forgotten that in the Temple at the time of our Messiah, continuing up to this very day, ALL Prayers and Scriptures are recited in Hebrew, no matter the nationality, and language of the Hebrew (Jewish) person.
The sad fact is beloved, it has been an evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name of Elohim, and that of His only begotten Son. However, those who oppose Elohim (adversary - satan) can never destroy the blessed Memorial Name of Elohim, but did succeed in persuading the faithful in the Messiah to forget it. There has even been a variety of substitute Names to confuse the matter. Now in these “latter days” there are even some believers who might say, “It does not matter if we really know or use the Name.” Beloved, more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not “God,” which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Yahvah, and the many gods believed in throughout the world.
At this point let us look at “the name above all names,” the name of our Messiah who is called “Jesus” by the “Church” and pagan Rome. Just as the blessed Name of Elohim has been forgotten, so has the most wonderful Name of our Lord and Saviour been dramatically altered and thus forgotten for many centuries.

Part Three - The Precious Name of Y'Shua

“Wherefore Elohim also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name. That at the name of (the Messiah) every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that (- - - - -) the Messiah is Lord, to the glory of Elohim the Father” Philippians 2:9-11.

Without doubt, many love the name of “Jesus.” As we travel the world, we hear the name of our Messiah pronounced many different ways. “Iesous, Jesu, Jisu, Isua, Isa” and in Israel -  [Wfy “Yeshua.” Is it not strange that our blessed Messiah has so many names? Yet, as I travel the world, I am called “Reuben” in all English speaking countries. But, it is also “Reuben” in Germany, Holland, Russia, Poland, Spain, France, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and the Americas, and in the Middle East! Thus, if every nation in the world is able to call me by my correct name, WHY then is it not possible to call our Saviour by his correct name? Has he not “the Name above every name?” Of course it is possible, and we should call the Messiah by the name, which his heavenly Father gave him.

“And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call his name YahoShua, for he will save his people from their sins” Matthew 1:21.

Yes, our Saviours name is “YahoShua,” and his name contains the blessed Name of his Father, “Yah,” whereas “Shua” means “save” or “salvation.” Thus, the name of YahoShua means, "Yahvah (the eternal existing One) Saves.” The blessed Name of YahoShua is correctly pronounced … “Yah’ho’Shoe’a.” One may say there is nothing wrong about the Name of Jesus as it is the Anglicised version of YahoShua. However, I make the point that all those who personally knew the Messiah and spoke with him, called him, “YahoShua.” You might say, “but the New Testament is in Greek, and there it was written differently.” True, but this was mainly due because Greek does not have a “Y” in its alphabet and it was therefore was written as VIhsou/ being “Iesou.”
However, at this point I wish to point out, that there was ANOTHER man of Elohim in the Word, and his name was also “YahoShua.” This man’s name was also written as VIhsou/, or “Iesou” in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Tenach). But, how was his name translated into the English, and in other Bibles? There you will find it much closer to the original Hebrew , “Joshua.”  Thus the question arises. “Why was the name of our Saviour not written as Joshua in our Bibles, and why so it so dramatically changed that it bears no resemblance to his real name?” The adversary obviously did a very good job, using Rome, and the many so-called intellectual scholars to hide the TRUTH!
It is also important to look at the best-known title of YahoShua, the “Christ.” You may have well noticed that this word is never used in my teachings, be it behind the pulpit, or in writing. There are multiple good reasons for this.

“He (YahoShua) is Kurios of kurioon and Basileus of basileoon - He is Lord of lords and King of kings.” Revelations 17:14.

Considering this verse, why then, when we speak about YahoShua, we use the term “Lord” and not “Ku’ri’os,” … or “King” rather than “Bas’il’yeas”? You might say, well Reuben that is Greek, and you are quite right! Why then use the Greek word “Christ” (from Christos) rather than its translation, “Messiah”? We call YahoShua “Lord” and “King,” thus we should then clearly make clear to the world that he is our “Messiah!” Please remember terms are titles, or attributes of our precious Messiah YahoShua, and we should translate them into our language for full understanding. However, names should never be altered or changed, and we should use the wonderful name Yahvah Elohim gave His only begotten Son. YahoShua is our Messiah’s actual Name!
Another reason I do not wish to use the title Christ, or Christian, is due to the millions of Jewish lives that have been slaughtered in the Name of Christ by “so-called Christians” during the past two thousand years. Within Jewish circles, the word “Christ” and “Christian” is associated with “death,” and the “murder” of Jews throughout Europe. Jewish people know that Hitler was “a Christian,” he was a Roman Catholic, yet he, and his mostly Catholic and Lutheran followers were responsible for the death of some 40 million people, including 6 million Jews during World War 2.
In today’s climate to say that you are a “Christian” has little meaning. We the faithful in Messiah YahoShua understand the difference, and often use more meaningful statements. Rather saying that you are a Christian, it would be better to define your faith in the Messiah YahoShua, for we know, the word Christian has lost its meaning in the world, especially in these “the latter days.” Recently whilst speaking with a man, he told me that he was a Christian, yet within minutes commenced to tell me of his belief in Krishna and reincarnation. You need to know, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims speak of “God” and “Jesus,” but this does not make them a believer and a follower of the Lord YahoShua the Messiah. This does not mean they know Him who is Yahvah Elohim, Elohim the Creator, and sustainer of life.
Thus, we as faithful believers in the Word of Elohim must stand apart from the world, as Messiah YahoShua has asked of us. We should return to the ways of old, and start calling the Yahvah Elohim and His only begotten Son by their Scriptural names and titles. As one chorus goes, “There is power in the Name.” How true this is. Therefore, let us return to using the names above every name. A Name greater than any, Yahvah Elohim, and YahoShua, His only begotten Son.
Blessed be the holy Name of hwhy Yahvah Elohim, Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. Blessed be the wonderful Name of YahoShua the Messiah, who died for us and rose again after three days and three nights, Hallelu'Yah! Thank You precious YahoShua, that all who believe in you and repent of their sins shall not perish but have everlasting life!

“Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that YahoShua died and rose again and so we believe that Elohim will bring with YahoShua those who have fallen asleep in him” 1Thes 4:13-14.

Beloved, this message, and it contents was given to me by Yahvah Elohim, for me to share with to the faithful and the “churches,” for He desires His faithful to know Him by His rightful Name and attribute. We must be aware YahoShua will come in this generation, for the people of Israel have been partially restored to Zion (Jerusalem) in 1967. We therefore have a big task ahead of us to proclaim the Word to a world lost, in order that many will be blessed and join the faithful at the time when we shall be “Caught up” (incorrectly called the Rapture).

“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of Elohim. And the dead in Messiah will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" 1Thessalonians 4:16-18.

For those that will enter the Great Tribulation, many will have at least heard the blessed Name of Elohim and that of the Lord Y’Shua from true believers. The fact is the great revival will come, not now, but during the days of the Tribulation, then the “two witnesses” will proclaim the Name above every name and do great signs and wonders. This occurs during the first three and a half years, as the Scriptures state. However, please Lord, give us the desire to go and share Ha Davar, the Word NOW, in order that many will be counted worthy, for soon the Bride, the faithful, will be caught up and will meet you YahoShua in the air. When will this happen? With absolute assurance I state that this will happen on the feast of “the blowing of the trumpets” known as Jewish New Year or “Rosh Hashanah” (late September, early October on the pagan calendar). Which year? Beloved, treat it as if it is going to happen today, then you will be surely ready when he comes, and will have fully “declared to them, Your Name.” The Name of Yahvah, or Yahwah Elohim and that of our blessed Saviour, YahoShua who is Ha Davar – the Word!

“Magnify His Name.”Shalom Kosta

 

 

 

[julius batalla]

Hi Kosta,

settled myself  not bother by this topic because more often than not it cause divisiveness in the congregation, however with today's parsha again it appear ואף־גם־זאת בהיותם בארץ איביהם לא־מאסתים ולא־געלתים לכלתם להפר בריתי אתם כי אני יהוה אלהיהם. I think you just made my interest back on this subject.

regards, julius    

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[Bryce Henderson]

As disciples of our Master Yeshua I think we should take our cues first from Him. He never used the Ineffable Name, so neither should we. Not once in Scripture do we see either our Master or one of His followers pronouncing the Name as it is spelled. Instead, they used circumlocutions like "L-RD", "G-d", "Father", "Heaven", and "the Power".

Shabbat Shalom,

Bryce

[avi5207]

Not meaning to offend anyone let me just say that I believe what you are saying is at the heart of why Yeshua tells His followers not to call any man 'rabbi' or 'great one'. Yeshua alone occupies this position in the lives of His followers and YHVH alone occupies the position of Father. When we become adopted into the family of YHVH the old connections to our carnal life is severed. Again Yeshua tells us that those that do the will of His Father in Heaven are the members of His family. We are told to pray to "our Father in Heaven" not YHVH. So I agree with your view on this. Again I humbly ask those that bear the title of 'great one' or rabbi please don't misunderstand me and take this as a personal attack... it isn't. Again please consider that Paul/Shaul tells us about those appointed to serve the will of the Father. Apostles, evangelists, prophets, teachers and Shepherds. No mention of someone called a 'great one' or rabbi. I know I've most likely upset more than one by saying this but if I am wrong please show me how... okay?

Shabbat Shalom,

Avi

[Kosta Guyer]

 
 
Accusation

As disciples of our Master Yeshua I think we should take our cues first from Him. He never used the Ineffable Name, so neither should we. Not once in Scripture do we see either our Master or one of His followers pronouncing the Name as it is spelled. Instead, they used circumlocutions like "L-RD", "G-d", "Father", "Heaven", and "the Power".

Shabbat Shalom,Bryce

 

Truth

 

The obvious question being what did our Messiah call His Father? It is unimaginable to believe that Messiah would have said, “Elohim your Father has two Names, one is Adonai (LORD) and the other is Elohim (G-d).” No, he, as the Word states, “declared,” or “revealed” “Your Name” and therefore the apostles would have known and understood the titles of El Shaddai, Elohim Almighty and His memorial Name, Yahvah.
It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the “Books of the Messiah” (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek. At a closer examination, we will find many verses where the holy Name of Elohim occurs in their writing.

Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of hwhy Yahvah (the LORD)” Matthew 21:9. See also Matthew 23:39, Mark 11:9, Luke 13:35 and John 12:13.

We must remember, that this verse is a direct quotation from Psalms 118:26. There the Hebrew says, “in the Name of hwhy - Yahvah.”

Again – “hwhy Yahvah said unto my Lord, sit at My right hand” Matthew 22:44. From Psalms 110:1.

Each of these verses, and many others quoted in the writings of the apostles, come directly from Tenach, which always uses the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy Yahvah. Thus, it is my firm belief that the apostles who had received from the Messiah the declaration, and the revelation of Elohim 's Name, used it in their original writings of the Gospels, especially when they were writing down direct quotes from the Tenach.

The book of Revelation has this quote from “The song of Moses, the servant of Elohim, and the song of the Lamb, saying: ‘Great and marvellous are Your works, Yahvah El Shaddai - (the LORD G-d Almighty)! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Yahvah, and glorify Your Name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You” Revelation15:3-4.

To me this proves that the Name of Yahvah Elohim has not changed, and that all the faithful out of the nations, and those of Israel will know His Name! Another thought in relation to the usage on the holy Name in the “Books of the Messiah” is this. In Revelation the phrase “Hallelu'Yah” is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name “Yah,” which is the short version of Yahvah. Some have said that the word “LORD,” “Adonai” or “Kurios” was used in the apostles quotations, and not the Tetragrammaton. No! As I have already stated earlier, when the four-letter Name of Elohim hwhy appears in Scripture, Hebrews might say “Adonai,” or “HaShem” (the Name), however, to this day, when writing the Name of Elohim on Torah Scrolls, the scribes always write Elohim’s Name as, hwhy. Thus, the Name was never lost or forgotten in the written form. Thus, the very Hebraic apostles would have also used hwhy Yahvah in their manuscripts, as they wrote the Gospels. From language styles compared with the Tenach translation to the Greek, the Septuagint, it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek. One argument is that Aramaic was the language of the day, thus it should have been written in Aramaic. It is also claimed, by another Sydney TV pastor, that the Messiah went about speaking and teaching in perfect Greek. What, speaking Greek to the Hebrew peasants and fishermen, who only knew Aramaic and Hebrew? It must not be forgotten that in the Temple at the time of our Messiah, continuing up to this very day, ALL Prayers and Scriptures are recited in Hebrew, no matter the nationality, and language of the Hebrew (Jewish) person.
The sad fact is beloved, it has been an evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name of Elohim, and that of His only begotten Son. However, those who oppose Elohim (adversary - satan) can never destroy the blessed Memorial Name of Elohim, but did succeed in persuading the faithful in the Messiah to forget it. There has even been a variety of substitute Names to confuse the matter. Now in these “latter days” there are even some believers who might say, “It does not matter if we really know or use the Name.” Beloved, more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not “God,” which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Yahvah, and the many gods believed in throughout the world.

Shalom Kosta

 

[avi5207]

Does just knowing how to pronounce a name bring salvation? Does a baby need to know its father's name to have a relationship with its father? If my father was named 'Bill Anybody' and I his son did many great things in our community wouldn't my relationship to my father be known? People would say to me "you are Bill Anybody's son aren't you?" Wouldn't my actions bring honor and glory to my father in our community? When my son Robert played football in high school he was known in the community for his ability to play football very well. His name was always being mentioned by the announcer at the football games he played in and most everyone that loved high school football� knew of my son and admired him for his abilities. His mother and I were given honor by his actions concerning football. If we live by our Heavenly Father's Word we walk in righteousness and by our love and obedience for Him we give honor and glory to Him. The importance of knowing a name that describes ones nature and character is less important than simply having a true relationship. We are adopted into YHVH's family so we by adoption through faith in His Word made flesh Yeshua Jn.1:14) have a relationship with Him as sons and daughters. Sons and daughters call out to their father when they are in need of anything. It is for this reason (relationship) that any person can call out to the Creator asking for salvation and He hears them. It matters not by what human name we call Him the fact is God is far beyond our ability to describe since He is more than we can know in our present carnal form. And as you know a name is a noun and a noun describes a person, place or thing. You are correct to say that Yeshua and most likely all Jews knew the ineffable name of the Creator but it was Yeshua's main purpose to redeem us from bondage to sin and death that we might become by faith and not works sons and daughters of God. So ultimately it is relationship that binds us together with YHVH our Heavenly Father, a relationship of blood just as it is a relationship of blood that binds any parent to his/her child so we too have this type of relationship. Relationship then is everything. If we act like God's children we are His children we reflect His Word but if we act like Satan the devil then we are his children and so doomed to slavery to sin, death and the fiery destruction that awaits him and his.

Shalom,

Avi





On 5/22/2011 5:33 AM, Kosta Guyer wrote:

�
�

Accusation

As disciples of our Master Yeshua I think we should take our cues first from Him. He never used the Ineffable Name, so neither should we. Not once in Scripture do we see either our Master or one of His followers pronouncing the Name as it is spelled. Instead, they used circumlocutions like "L-RD", "G-d", "Father", "Heaven", and "the Power".

Shabbat Shalom,Bryce

�

Truth

�

The obvious question being what did our Messiah call His Father? It is unimaginable to believe that Messiah would have said, �Elohim your Father has two Names, one is Adonai (LORD) and the other is Elohim (G-d).� No, he, as the Word states, �declared,� or �revealed� �Your Name� and therefore the apostles would have known and understood the titles of El Shaddai, Elohim Almighty and His memorial Name, Yahvah.
It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the �Books of the Messiah� (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek. At a closer examination, we will find many verses where the holy Name of Elohim occurs in their writing.

Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of hwhy Yahvah (the LORD)� Matthew 21:9. See also Matthew 23:39, Mark 11:9, Luke 13:35 and John 12:13.

We must remember, that this verse is a direct quotation from Psalms 118:26. There the Hebrew says, �in the Name of hwhy - Yahvah.�

Again � �hwhy Yahvah said unto my Lord, sit at My right hand� Matthew 22:44. From Psalms 110:1.

Each of these verses, and many others quoted in the writings of the apostles, come directly from Tenach, which always uses the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy Yahvah. Thus, it is my firm belief that the apostles who had received from the Messiah the declaration, and the revelation of Elohim 's Name, used it in their original writings of the Gospels, especially when they were writing down direct quotes from the Tenach.

The book of Revelation has this quote from �The song of Moses, the servant of Elohim, and the song of the Lamb, saying: �Great and marvellous are Your works, Yahvah El Shaddai - (the LORD G-d Almighty)! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Yahvah, and glorify Your Name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You� Revelation15:3-4.

To me this proves that the Name of Yahvah Elohim has not changed, and that all the faithful out of the nations, and those of Israel will know His Name! Another thought in relation to the usage on the holy Name in the �Books of the Messiah� is this. In Revelation the phrase �Hallelu'Yah� is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name �Yah,� which is the short version of Yahvah. Some have said that the word �LORD,� �Adonai� or �Kurios� was used in the apostles quotations, and not the Tetragrammaton. No! As I have already stated earlier, when the four-letter Name of Elohim hwhy appears in Scripture, Hebrews might say �Adonai,� or �HaShem� (the Name), however, to this day, when writing the Name of Elohim on Torah Scrolls, the scribes always write Elohim�s Name as, hwhy. Thus, the Name was never lost or forgotten in the written form. Thus, the very Hebraic apostles would have also used hwhy Yahvah in their manuscripts, as they wrote the Gospels. From language styles compared with the Tenach translation to the Greek, the Septuagint, it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek. One argument is that Aramaic was the language of the day, thus it should have been written in Aramaic. It is also claimed, by another Sydney TV pastor, that the Messiah went about speaking and teaching in perfect Greek. What, speaking Greek to the Hebrew peasants and fishermen, who only knew Aramaic and Hebrew? It must not be forgotten that in the Temple at the time of our Messiah, continuing up to this very day, ALL Prayers and Scriptures are recited in Hebrew, no matter the nationality, and language of the Hebrew (Jewish) person.
The sad fact is beloved, it has been an evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name of Elohim, and that of His only begotten Son. However, those who oppose Elohim (adversary - satan) can never destroy the blessed Memorial Name of Elohim, but did succeed in persuading the faithful in the Messiah to forget it. There has even been a variety of substitute Names to confuse the matter. Now in these �latter days� there are even some believers who might say, �It does not matter if we really know or use the Name.� Beloved, more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not �God,� which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Yahvah, and the many gods believed in throughout the world.
Shalom Kosta

�

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[ar...@rice.edu]

> the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not the doing of its
> authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of
> Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into
> Greek.

How do you know the Brit Chadasha was originally written in Hebrew and
not in Koine Greek? I would disagree with this statement as would many
historians. We should look up what Josephus says on this matter.
Yeshua used either Hebrew or Arameic, probably Arameic (which is
written in the Hebrew script, just to note that the whole Zohar is
also in Arameic), and in his teachings he probably used either the
Ineffable Tetragrammatton, or AHYH[EHEYE] (Eheye Asher Eheye) name of
HaShem. I wonder how did the statement "Before Abraham was, I AM"
sounded in Hebrew/Arameic when Yeshua uttered it. However, no matter
which language Yeshua spoke in, the apostles who wrote the Brit
Chadasha -and especially the gospels- according to most historians
were writing in Koine Greek.

Here is a great interlinear featured Koine Greek NT,
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
I'm now looking up each reference you gave to see the name used.
Matthew 21:9, name used: ONOMATI (regular meaning: 'name')
'en onomati ku/riov' = in the name of the Lord.
ku/riov [koo'-ree-os] meaning: he to whom a person or thing belongs,
about which he has power of deciding; master, lord the possessor and
disposer of a thing the owner; one who has control of the person, the
master in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which
servants greet their master this title is given to: God, the Messiah
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat21.pdf
Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed,
cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that
cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
The multitudes here were most assuredly quoting from Psalm 118:26,
Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD, בָּרוּךְ הַבָּא,
בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה, AND they were saying this in Hebrew.

Yeshua was quoting scripture when he was being tempted in the desert,
therefore he used The Name. All the places where TaNaK verses are
being quoted in the Brit Chadasha can be found here
http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm This is the closest we can
get in deriving the exact Hebrew/Arameic words Messiah and the twelve
disciples used.

Shalom,

Anna

Quoting Kosta Guyer <ander...@hotmail.com>:

[Bryce Henderson]

"YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned. 

No, it's not some "evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name". If you care to read the following it will help you to understand better:

"The Name of G-d" http://www.mediafire.com/?nltnh3cgo52

-- 

[XuS Casal]

Kosta said:
"It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the ן¿½Books of the Messiahן¿½ (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Y-h, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek".
 
Xus said:
well. Then why the hebrew manuscripts that we know today of Matthew and Hebrews don't have the name of God? There are two Yods instead of the Sacred name (ן¿½ן¿½).
Why the Greek manuscripts say: 'Lord' (Kurios) instead of the Sacred Name, the same way that the old aramaic manuscripts say Lord (marya) instead of the Sacred name? Is there any manuscript with the Sacred name of God?
 
Kosta said:
"In Revelation the phrase ן¿½Hallelu'Yahן¿½ is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name ן¿½Yah,ן¿½ "

 
Bryce said:
"YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned. 
 

Kosta said:
"it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek".
 

Anni said:
"the apostles who wrote the Brit Chadasha -and especially the gospels- according to most historians were writing in Koine Greek".
 

Xus said:
something to consider. The oldest manuscript found of the gospels is a portion of Luke in Aramaic. Most of Aramaic manuscripts are of the same age or even older than Greek. When the different Greek manuscripts have a differece in the words, the aramaic word used by the Peshitta can solve the contradiction; for example, half of Greek mms say that 'Yeshua got angry' (Mrk 1:41), half say 'Yeshua had mercy'. The Peshitta uses the word: 'ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ' that can be pronounced Ethraham (have mercy) or Etram (get angry). More things to consider: The Greek wasn't used by common jewish people, as we read in Talmud that: To teach greek is the same thing as performing a Pork sacrifice.. ..except for the household of Gamaliel who had close interactions with the govern. Phariseans and Nazarenes didn't use the LXX; coz there was Halacha about it (Talmud Sotah 49b); consider that Paul was Pharisean. When a common Jew needed to speak with a Roman, it was a common practice to speak through translators. And don't forget that according to most (GOY) historians: Matthew wrote in Hebrew. And Eusebius of Caesarea stated that the nazarene jews had their Gospels in Aramaic (syriac)ן¿½ (Eusebius; Eclesiastical history 4:22). the apostles of Yeshua were called: Nazarenes in the Bible.
 
Kosta said:
"more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not ן¿½God,ן¿½ which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Y-h, and the many gods believed in throughout the world".
 
Avi said:
"Does just knowing how to pronounce a name bring salvation? Does a baby need to know its father's name to have a relationship with its father?"
 
Xus said:
Was it really necessary to use the Name of God in this post? If wasn't really necessary, then it was used in vain. How can we know that it wasn't necessary to use it? Because you could have writen exactly the same text with no direct mention of the Name. How can you know that the Name is pronounced that way? that's just especulation. The Real pronunciation of The Sacred Name is not lost, many generations of wise Chassidic and Haredi Sages are keeping it from its desecration (making it common Name that people would use in any situation with no proper respect). That makes THE NAME vain. So, I don't agree to Try to especulate its pronunciation, and I don't agree to pronounce it whenever is not necessary. Is 'GOD' a pagan name? Nop. It's a title, which english speakers are careful to write in Capitals to distinguish between the one and only God and the rest of gods. Consider that Asthoreth in the TANAK is also called: elohim. Anyway I agree that the term "Elohim" is more accurate.
 
Shalom achim, just my thoughts.
 
-XuS-


 

---

From: iserv...@mac.com
Subject: Re: [JC] The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 09:07:43 -0600
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

"YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned. 

No, it's not some "evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name". If you care to read the following it will help you to understand better:

"The Name of G-d" http://www.mediafire.com/?nltnh3cgo52

On 2011-05-22, at 4:33 AM, Kosta Guyer wrote:

 
 
Accusation

As disciples of our Master Yeshua I think we should take our cues first from Him. He never used the Ineffable Name, so neither should we. Not once in Scripture do we see either our Master or one of His followers pronouncing the Name as it is spelled. Instead, they used circumlocutions like "L-RD", "G-d", "Father", "Heaven", and "the Power".

Shabbat Shalom,Bryce

 

Truth

 

The obvious question being what did our Messiah call His Father? It is unimaginable to believe that Messiah would have said, ן¿½Elohim your Father has two Names, one is Adonai (LORD) and the other is Elohim (G-d).ן¿½No, he, as the Word states, ן¿½declared,ן¿½ or ן¿½revealedן¿½ ן¿½Your Nameן¿½ and therefore the apostles would have known and understood the titles of El Shaddai, Elohim Almighty and His memorial Name, Yahvah.
It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the ן¿½Books of the Messiahן¿½ (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek. At a closer examination, we will find many verses where the holy Name of Elohim occurs in their writing.

Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of hwhy Yahvah (the LORD)ן¿½ Matthew 21:9. See also Matthew 23:39, Mark 11:9, Luke 13:35 and John 12:13.

We must remember, that this verse is a direct quotation from Psalms 118:26. There the Hebrew says, ן¿½in the Name of hwhy - Yahvah.ן¿½

Again ן¿½ ן¿½hwhy Yahvah said unto my Lord, sit at My right handן¿½ Matthew 22:44. From Psalms 110:1.

Each of these verses, and many others quoted in the writings of the apostles, come directly from Tenach, which always uses the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy Yahvah. Thus, it is my firm belief that the apostles who had received from the Messiah the declaration, and the revelation of Elohim 's Name, used it in their original writings of the Gospels, especially when they were writing down direct quotes from the Tenach.

The book of Revelation has this quote from ן¿½The song of Moses, the servant of Elohim, and the song of the Lamb, saying: ן¿½Great and marvellous are Your works, Yahvah El Shaddai - (the LORD G-d Almighty)! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Yahvah, and glorify Your Name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before Youן¿½ Revelation15:3-4.

To me this proves that the Name of Yahvah Elohim has not changed, and that all the faithful out of the nations, and those of Israel will know His Name! Another thought in relation to the usage on the holy Name in the ן¿½Books of the Messiahן¿½ is this. In Revelation the phrase ן¿½Hallelu'Yahן¿½ is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name ן¿½Yah,ן¿½ which is the short version of Yahvah. Some have said that the word ן¿½LORD,ן¿½ ן¿½Adonaiן¿½ or ן¿½Kuriosן¿½ was used in the apostles quotations, and not the Tetragrammaton. No! As I have already stated earlier, when the four-letter Name of Elohim hwhy appears in Scripture, Hebrews might say ן¿½Adonai,ן¿½ or ן¿½HaShemן¿½ (the Name), however, to this day, when writing the Name of Elohim on Torah Scrolls, the scribes always write Elohimן¿½s Name as, hwhy. Thus, the Name was never lost or forgotten in the written form. Thus, the very Hebraic apostles would have also used hwhy Yahvah in their manuscripts, as they wrote the Gospels. From language styles compared with the Tenach translation to the Greek, the Septuagint, it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek. One argument is that Aramaic was the language of the day, thus it should have been written in Aramaic. It is also claimed, by another Sydney TV pastor, that the Messiah went about speaking and teaching in perfect Greek. What, speaking Greek to the Hebrew peasants and fishermen, who only knew Aramaic and Hebrew? It must not be forgotten that in the Temple at the time of our Messiah, continuing up to this very day, ALL Prayers and Scriptures are recited in Hebrew, no matter the nationality, and language of the Hebrew (Jewish) person.
The sad fact is beloved, it has been an evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name of Elohim, and that of His only begotten Son. However, those who oppose Elohim (adversary - satan) can never destroy the blessed Memorial Name of Elohim, but did succeed in persuading the faithful in the Messiah to forget it. There has even been a variety of substitute Names to confuse the matter. Now in these ן¿½latter daysן¿½ there are even some believers who might say, ן¿½It does not matter if we really know or use the Name.ן¿½ Beloved, more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not ן¿½God,ן¿½ which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Yahvah, and the many gods believed in throughout the world.
Shalom Kosta

 

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[andy]

God chose Abraham, not the Hebrew language. The Almighty, eternal God doesn’t need us to articulate His name. God still looks at the heart and He will judge us according to our faith... Abraham is the father of faith, not Hebrew pronunciations. The religious always try to make everything out of nothing. I love God and obey Him, I speak English, so is God waiting for me to come up with all the guttural sounds of Hebrew so He can be happy? I am a son of Abraham, circumcised in the heart. The Pharisees were nit pickers because they didn’t have life. Do you think the millions of believers in China where Jesus is moving with them in great power our bound to the Hebrew language? This is the argument of the early assembly when the Jews tried to make the gentiles follow the rules of the Jews... it is still going on. Love, not pronouncing His name is at the heart of God. If the name Jesus offends you, It doesn’t offend Him because He heals in that name, saves in that name, and lives in the hearts of millions of people in that name. It is a sin when the name becomes more than what it was intended to do. If Abraham was Spanish or of any other language the name would have a different sound. Do you think God would have spoken Hebrew to the Spanish?  It is about faith and love, no pronouncing His name. Jesus is Lord, He is God, He is almighty, He is not Hebrew, or Spanish, or German, Jesus said it, “I am from above.”  He was sent by the Father, but the word father is a worldly title given to men who have children through their wives... so does the Father have a wife. Our language is limited on this earth, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” “whatever is not of faith is sin.” Those who were born out of the water and of the Spirit were in “The faith.” It is about faith, being seated with Him in heavenly places, Living a crucified life, dead to self, obeying His commandments and following Him. Our whole language is pagan. Abraham was a pagan until he had faith in God, he was not born perfect, his perfection came out of his faith in God... whether in Aramic, Hebrew, Spanish, English... He is the God of all creation, not only of those using the Hebrew language.

When we all stand before Him at judgment, all our languages will be gone, we will answer to Him according to our faith alone and faith is not alone...it has works

Andy. 

 

From: XuS Casal

Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 12:25 PM

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [JC] The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)

 

Kosta said:
"It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the “Books of the Messiah” (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Y-h, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek".
 
Xus said:
well. Then why the hebrew manuscripts that we know today of Matthew and Hebrews don't have the name of God? There are two Yods instead of the Sacred name (יי).

Why the Greek manuscripts say: 'Lord' (Kurios) instead of the Sacred Name, the same way that the old aramaic manuscripts say Lord (marya) instead of the Sacred name? Is there any manuscript with the Sacred name of God?
 
Kosta said:

"In Revelation the phrase “Hallelu'Yah” is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name “Yah,” "

 
Bryce said:
"YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned.
 
Kosta said:
"it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek".
 
Anni said:
"the apostles who wrote the Brit Chadasha -and especially the gospels- according to most historians were writing in Koine Greek".
 
Xus said:

something to consider. The oldest manuscript found of the gospels is a portion of Luke in Aramaic. Most of Aramaic manuscripts are of the same age or even older than Greek. When the different Greek manuscripts have a differece in the words, the aramaic word used by the Peshitta can solve the contradiction; for example, half of Greek mms say that 'Yeshua got angry' (Mrk 1:41), half say 'Yeshua had mercy'. The Peshitta uses the word: 'אתרחם ' that can be pronounced Ethraham (have mercy) or Etram (get angry). More things to consider: The Greek wasn't used by common jewish people, as we read in Talmud that: To teach greek is the same thing as performing a Pork sacrifice.. ..except for the household of Gamaliel who had close interactions with the govern. Phariseans and Nazarenes didn't use the LXX; coz there was Halacha about it (Talmud Sotah 49b); consider that Paul was Pharisean. When a common Jew needed to speak with a Roman, it was a common practice to speak through translators. And don't forget that according to most (GOY) historians: Matthew wrote in Hebrew. And Eusebius of Caesarea stated that the nazarene jews had their Gospels in Aramaic (syriac)” (Eusebius; Eclesiastical history 4:22). the apostles of Yeshua were called: Nazarenes in the Bible.
 
Kosta said:
"more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not “God,” which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Y-h, and the many gods believed in throughout the world".

 
Avi said:
"Does just knowing how to pronounce a name bring salvation? Does a baby need to know its father's name to have a relationship with its father?"
 
Xus said:
Was it really necessary to use the Name of God in this post? If wasn't really necessary, then it was used in vain. How can we know that it wasn't necessary to use it? Because you could have writen exactly the same text with no direct mention of the Name. How can you know that the Name is pronounced that way? that's just especulation. The Real pronunciation of The Sacred Name is not lost, many generations of wise Chassidic and Haredi Sages are keeping it from its desecration (making it common Name that people would use in any situation with no proper respect). That makes THE NAME vain. So, I don't agree to Try to especulate its pronunciation, and I don't agree to pronounce it whenever is not necessary. Is 'GOD' a pagan name? Nop. It's a title, which english speakers are careful to write in Capitals to distinguish between the one and only God and the rest of gods. Consider that Asthoreth in the TANAK is also called: elohim. Anyway I agree that the term "Elohim" is more accurate.
 
Shalom achim, just my thoughts.
 
-XuS-


 

---

From: iserv...@mac.com
Subject: Re: [JC] The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 09:07:43 -0600
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

"YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned. 

 

No, it's not some "evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name". If you care to read the following it will help you to understand better:

 

"The Name of G-d" http://www.mediafire.com/?nltnh3cgo52

On 2011-05-22, at 4:33 AM, Kosta Guyer wrote:

 
 
Accusation

As disciples of our Master Yeshua I think we should take our cues first from Him. He never used the Ineffable Name, so neither should we. Not once in Scripture do we see either our Master or one of His followers pronouncing the Name as it is spelled. Instead, they used circumlocutions like "L-RD", "G-d", "Father", "Heaven", and "the Power".

Shabbat Shalom,Bryce

 

Truth

 

The obvious question being what did our Messiah call His Father? It is unimaginable to believe that Messiah would have said, “Elohim your Father has two Names, one is Adonai (LORD) and the other is Elohim (G-d).”No, he, as the Word states, “declared,” or “revealed” “Your Name” and therefore the apostles would have known and understood the titles of El Shaddai, Elohim Almighty and His memorial Name, Yahvah.
It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach and never in the “Books of the Messiah” (also called the New Testament). The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek. At a closer examination, we will find many verses where the holy Name of Elohim occurs in their writing.

Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of hwhy Yahvah (the LORD)” Matthew 21:9. See also Matthew 23:39, Mark 11:9, Luke 13:35 and John 12:13.

We must remember, that this verse is a direct quotation from Psalms 118:26. There the Hebrew says, “in the Name of hwhy - Yahvah.”

Again – “hwhy Yahvah said unto my Lord, sit at My right hand” Matthew 22:44. From Psalms 110:1.

Each of these verses, and many others quoted in the writings of the apostles, come directly from Tenach, which always uses the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy Yahvah. Thus, it is my firm belief that the apostles who had received from the Messiah the declaration, and the revelation of Elohim 's Name, used it in their original writings of the Gospels, especially when they were writing down direct quotes from the Tenach.

The book of Revelation has this quote from “The song of Moses, the servant of Elohim, and the song of the Lamb, saying: ‘Great and marvellous are Your works, Yahvah El Shaddai - (the LORD G-d Almighty)! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Yahvah, and glorify Your Name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You” Revelation15:3-4.

To me this proves that the Name of Yahvah Elohim has not changed, and that all the faithful out of the nations, and those of Israel will know His Name! Another thought in relation to the usage on the holy Name in the “Books of the Messiah” is this. In Revelation the phrase “Hallelu'Yah” is used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name “Yah,” which is the short version of Yahvah. Some have said that the word “LORD,” “Adonai” or “Kurios” was used in the apostles quotations, and not the Tetragrammaton. No! As I have already stated earlier, when the four-letter Name of Elohim hwhy appears in Scripture, Hebrews might say “Adonai,” or “HaShem” (the Name), however, to this day, when writing the Name of Elohim on Torah Scrolls, the scribes always write Elohim’s Name as, hwhy. Thus, the Name was never lost or forgotten in the written form. Thus, the very Hebraic apostles would have also used hwhy Yahvah in their manuscripts, as they wrote the Gospels. From language styles compared with the Tenach translation to the Greek, the Septuagint, it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later translated to Greek. One argument is that Aramaic was the language of the day, thus it should have been written in Aramaic. It is also claimed, by another Sydney TV pastor, that the Messiah went about speaking and teaching in perfect Greek. What, speaking Greek to the Hebrew peasants and fishermen, who only knew Aramaic and Hebrew? It must not be forgotten that in the Temple at the time of our Messiah, continuing up to this very day, ALL Prayers and Scriptures are recited in Hebrew, no matter the nationality, and language of the Hebrew (Jewish) person.
The sad fact is beloved, it has been an evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed Name of Elohim, and that of His only begotten Son. However, those who oppose Elohim (adversary - satan) can never destroy the blessed Memorial Name of Elohim, but did succeed in persuading the faithful in the Messiah to forget it. There has even been a variety of substitute Names to confuse the matter. Now in these “latter days” there are even some believers who might say, “It does not matter if we really know or use the Name.” Beloved, more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim (not “God,” which is actually pagan), this will ensure that those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim, Yahvah, and the many gods believed in throughout the world.
Shalom Kosta

 

 

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[Israel]

Xus is correct.

The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:

Exodus 4:10
 ויאמר משה אל-יהוה בי אדני לא איש דברים אנכי גם מתמול גם משלשם גם מאז דברך אל-עבדך כי כבד-פה וכבד לשון אנכי:

And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord..."

It is within the context of:

^{Ex 3:15}God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, YH-VK, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

and yet...

Ex 4:10 And said Moshe to YH-VK, "Oh Adonai" 

The Hebrew is clear. No need to even debate if what Yeshua said when he read from the scroll of Isaiah is recorded in Greek or Hebrew! As always the truth is always found in the Torah, and here it is.

When addressing HaShem, Moshe never users the Name, but rather addresses him as "Adonai."

Why?

To teach us to do the same.

It is that simple.

When you read Ex 3 and 4 together as one whole account, you realize the emphasis G-d places on identifying himself... and yet when Moshe personally addresses him, for the first and only time in scripture, he uses a circumlocution: Adonai. "My Lord." The context therefore serves as the teaching on this matter. And never once in Torah does Moshe address HaShem directly with the Name (or any name for that matter except this one account). We should learn to do the same by Moshe's example as recorded for us in G-d
s Torah (teaching). Unless commanded by HaShem to do so specifically, the general prohibition by Moshe's example remains.

Shalom,

Israel

[Bryce Henderson]

Many thanks.

[ar...@rice.edu]

Baruch HaShem,

I am SO happy to find out the gospels could have possibly been written
in Hebrew. It would also make sense if some of the epistles were also
originally written in Hebrew, especially the Epistle to the Hebrews.
We should also keep in mind that the Greek manuscripts found were just
one of MANY (up to 50 of a kind) copies of manuscripts (translated or
original) of the gospels and epistles circulated in the early Church.
If they were written in Hebrew/Arameic, and If these manuscripts are
preserved somewhere, then this would mean we could potentially use the
same detailed analysis techniques applied to the Torah.

Andy, I couldn't agree with most of your statement more.

But let us also consider the following: I attended bible studies with
some Christian girls this school year. At the Bible study we would
exchange opinions on the verses for that day. I would be the one to
always go into greater detail and accept the challenge of many
paradoxes inside the gospel, or be best able to explain the
midrashic/kabbalistic meaning behind the text. But then as soon as the
Bible study was over the other girls would start talking about random
secular things, such as movies they saw, places they went, people they
met etc., and I was still left with the desire to continue discussing
the Bible after the Bible study was over. To me the Word of G-D is not
something I leave my daily routine to turn to, to me the Word of G-D
is something my daily routine Revolves around. I cannot imagine my
existence if it did not revolve around G-D and the scholarly study of
knowing Him better and doing His will. It is not about making faith
complex by studying the TaNaK and Gospels to a greater detail,
analyzing it word by word; it is about quenching the burning desire to
know G-D and Christ better, seeing with the heart the spiritual realm,
transcending mortal nature, discovering practical techniques of
becoming more holy... It is like a bride who loves her husband (who is
a gem among all men) so much that she wants to know everything about
him, she wants to spend time with him, she wants to find what is it
that pleases him to the tiniest detail - and then goes about doing it
- even though she knows His love for her is unconditional and is not
based on those tiny details; she cannot stop thinking about him and
wants to perfect herself according to his will and desires. This is
what our relationship with G-D should be like. But G-D made it soooo
simple in Christ. G-D loves us, both the Church and Israel, He loves
us soooo much, that he made it simple enough for the Church to be
unconditionally loved and saved, and yet he made it complex enough to
quench Israel's desire to know G-D better and please Him to the
tiniest detail. We all love G-D, but the expression of love is
different across churches, synagogues, and different individuals
within both. I have friends in my school that are right now on a
mission trip in Azerbaijan, and this is their expression of love.
Apostle Paul expressed his love both through mission trips as well as
studying every facet of TaNaK. There are also those within both the
Church and Israel that do only the study and then contribute to the
scholarly knowledge of G-D and TaNaK. At the same time there are those
organs in the Body of Christ who do worship and acts of
loving-kindness. We cannot dismiss any of those parts. The issue at
hand is not one of the Jewish community dismissing the Christian
freedom of expression of love for G-D, rather the issue is the Jewish
community being too often suppressed in Their expression of love for
G-D, through various stereotypes such as the stigmas attached to the
Talmud, Kabbala, Orthodox Jewish observances, and Judaism in general.
To love G-D with all your heart is to place him at the foundations of
your personal universe, to Build your own world on the Rock of Christ.
The heart of a person is that space within your soul where you build
your own personal universe in - everything you hope for, everything
you desire, all of your endeavors, all of your goals, everything you
are aware of, your whole personal version of the world, your life,
your everything. Your eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth are openings to
your soul and your heart. If you shine in darkness your heart will be
dark. But if you let the Word of G-D and Christ come in then you will
have Light in your heart and in your life. Judaism is often about
keeping this space within the soul as uncontaminated and as pure as
possible. Even though we have Christ, it is often hard to keep out the
impure influences of TV, internet, cinema, unbelieving friends, the
thorns of the world, and the damage sin (even unconscious sin) brings
to our welfare during this physical life. Judaism is very much about
building a fence to protect one from these adverse influences. It is
also about quenching the soul's thirst for knowing G-D better and
filling every tiny detail of mundane everydayness with Torah.
Ordaining yearly holidays around times and seasons appointed in Torah
makes one think about Torah in anticipation of these events and allows
to live out Torah and to almost live through the Torah events. Nothing
can replace the pristine sweetness of Shabbat which is a taste of
holiness and the carefree life in the Garden of Eden. At the same time
nothing can replace the pristine sweetness of deep-hearted
Spirit-filled tearful prayer in Christ. It is not true that as
observance steps in spirituality steps out. Sometimes Christ wants
some individuals to turn to their Jewishness and tradition. A problem
arises when a Christian leaves Christ to turn to Judaism - that is
totally wrong and almost assuredly leads out of Heaven. To express our
love for Christ we should do the best we can, with the understanding
and abilities we have, in the place where we were when Christ called
us to him. But to blame the Jews for being too complex about faith is
absolutely wrong. How about me blaming you now that you are being too
complex about playing sports? Or that you are being too complex about
studying chemistry/physics? Or that you go into too great of a detail
into studying ancient archeology? Or that you submit yourself to too
strict diets? In fact, studying the Bible to a great detail is the
best paid job in the world, and it is the job of the Jews. Just look
at all the blessings G-D has poured on the Jewish people and Israel.
Israel is the Torah nation, so let Israel exploit and present to the
world(of anarchy) the Torah modeling of individual/family life,
political/economic/legal systems arrangement,
worship/prayer/meditation/reading technicalities, friendships/marriage
details etc. This group is about studying the Bible to as great detail
as other sciences are studied, and the Bible is the most important
document in the whole word so I am unscrupulous about encouraging
everyone in this group contribute in innovative ways to painstaking
research throughout the Book that gives Life to every one of us.

I also encourage those with different gifts to export the simplicity
of the Gospel and the Good News of the Salvation in Yeshua to the four
corners of the world. This is how simple that Gospel is:

47 days after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea under the
leadership of Moshe, Moshe went up on Mount Sinai. He stayed there for
40 days, but the people didn't know for how long he was going to stay
there. After only few days of waiting for Moshe to come down from the
mountain, the people got scared they had perhaps lost their leader who
was their only mediator and form of communication they had between
them and G-D. In their fear that losing Moshe would mean losing their
touch with HaShem which they had experienced so profoundly on their
way out of Egypt, they decided to make for themselves another medium
of communicating with G-D, namely the golden calf. They were not
necessarily asking for a replacement of the One and True G-D, HaShem,
which led them out of Egypt, they were merely asking a replacement for
Moshe, who has been set before them as their leader/savior, but who
was now gone: when the people saw that Moshe delayed coming down from
the mountain, the people came to Aaron, and said to him: 'Up, make us
a god [Elohim] who shall go before us [ עֲשֵׂה-לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר
יֵלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ]; for as for this Moshe, the man that brought us up
out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him' (Exodus
32:1). That Moshe was set AS a god before them we can read in Exodus
7:1, "And the LORD said unto Moshe: 'See, I have made thee a god
[Elohim] to Pharaoh [רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה]; and Aaron
thy brother shall be thy prophet." Even though their reasoning were
logical and their intentions were good, worshiping the golden calf was
a wrong form of worship. Even worshiping Moshe who was like an Elohim
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah. However,
worshiping Yeshua is permitted, and calling Him Elohim is also
permitted - G-D The Father has finally given humanity a simple and
proper way of worshiping HaShem, a physical medium to whom men of
flesh can relate in their spiritual simplicity and ignorance, namely,
Jesus Christ.

Shalom Rav,

Anna

Quoting Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>:

> Xus is correct.
>
> The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:
>
> Exodus 4:10

> *ויאמר משה אל-יהוה בי אדני* לא איש דברים אנכי גם מתמול גם משלשם גם מאז דברך

> אל-עבדך כי כבד-פה וכבד לשון אנכי:
>

> *And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord...**"*

>> *From:* XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 22, 2011 12:25 PM
>> *To:* jerusale...@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* RE: [JC] The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)

>>
>> Kosta said:
>> "It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach

>> and never in the *“Books of the Messiah”* *(also called the New Testament)
>> *. The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Y-h, was not the

>> doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of
>> Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek".
>>
>> Xus said:

>> *well. Then why the hebrew manuscripts that we know today of Matthew and

>> Hebrews don't have the name of God? There are two Yods instead of the Sacred

>> name (יי). *
>> *Why the Greek manuscripts say: 'Lord' (Kurios) instead of the Sacred

>> Name, the same way that the old aramaic manuscripts say Lord (marya) instead

>> of the Sacred name? Is there any manuscript with the Sacred name of God?*
>> **
>> Kosta said:
>> "In Revelation the phrase “Hallelu'*Yah**”* is used some 20 times, thus
>> there without any doubt we find the blessed Name “*Yah*,” "
>>
>> Bryce said:
>> *"YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the

>> pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned.

>> *

>>
>> Kosta said:
>> "it appears that the four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in
>> Hebrew, and later translated to Greek".
>>
>> Anni said:
>> "the apostles who wrote the Brit Chadasha -and especially the gospels-
>> according to most historians were writing in Koine Greek".
>>
>> Xus said:

>> *something to consider. The oldest manuscript found of the gospels is a

>> portion of Luke in Aramaic. Most of Aramaic manuscripts are of the same
>> age or even older than Greek. When the different Greek manuscripts have a
>> differece in the words, the aramaic word used by the Peshitta can solve the
>> contradiction; for example, half of Greek mms say that 'Yeshua got angry'
>> (Mrk 1:41), half say 'Yeshua had mercy'. The Peshitta uses the word: '
>> אתרחם ' that can be pronounced Ethraham (have mercy) or Etram (get angry).
>> More things to consider: The Greek wasn't used by common jewish people, as
>> we read in Talmud that: To teach greek is the same thing as performing a
>> Pork sacrifice.. ..except for the household of Gamaliel who had close
>> interactions with the govern. Phariseans and Nazarenes didn't use the LXX;
>> coz there was Halacha about it (Talmud Sotah 49b); consider that Paul was
>> Pharisean. When a common Jew needed to speak with a Roman, it was a common
>> practice to speak through translators. And don't forget that according to
>> most (GOY) historians: Matthew wrote in Hebrew. And Eusebius of Caesarea
>> stated that the nazarene jews had their Gospels in Aramaic

>> (syriac)*”* *(Eusebius;
>> Eclesiastical history 4:22)*. the apostles of Yeshua were called:
>> Nazarenes in the Bible.*
>> **

>> Kosta said:
>> "more than ever do we need to use the everlasting Name, and correct title

>> of Elohim *(not “God,” which is actually pagan),* this will ensure that

>> those individuals we share the Word with, will know the difference between
>> the one and only true Elohim, Y-h, and the many gods believed in throughout
>> the world".
>>
>> Avi said:
>> "Does just knowing how to pronounce a name bring salvation? Does a baby
>> need to know its father's name to have a relationship with its father?"
>>
>> Xus said:

>> *Was it really necessary to use the Name of God in this post? If wasn't

>> really necessary, then it was used in vain. How can we know that it wasn't
>> necessary to use it? Because you could have writen exactly the same text
>> with no direct mention of the Name. How can you know that the Name is
>> pronounced that way? that's just especulation. The Real pronunciation of The
>> Sacred Name is not lost, many generations of wise Chassidic and Haredi Sages
>> are keeping it from its desecration (making it common Name that people
>> would use in any situation with no proper respect). That makes THE NAME
>> vain. So, I don't agree to Try to especulate its pronunciation, and I don't
>> agree to pronounce it whenever is not necessary. Is 'GOD' a pagan name? Nop.
>> It's a title, which english speakers are careful to write in Capitals to
>> distinguish between the one and only God and the rest of gods. Consider
>> that Asthoreth in the TANAK is also called: elohim. Anyway I agree that the

>> term "Elohim" is more accurate.*
>> **
>> *Shalom achim, just my thoughts.*
>> **
>> *-XuS-*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------

>> From: iserv...@mac.com
>> Subject: Re: [JC] The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)
>> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 09:07:43 -0600
>> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
>>
>> "YAH" is not banned, so there is nothing wrong with using it. Only the
>> pronunciation of the Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton, in Hebrew is banned.
>>
>> No, it's not some "evil conspiracy to destroy the usage of the blessed
>> Name". If you care to read the following it will help you to understand
>> better:
>>
>> "The Name of G-d" http://www.mediafire.com/?nltnh3cgo52
>>
>> On 2011-05-22, at 4:33 AM, Kosta Guyer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> *Accusation*
>>
>> *As disciples of our Master Yeshua I think we should take our cues first

>> from Him. He never used the Ineffable Name, so neither should we. Not once
>> in Scripture do we see either our Master or one of His followers pronouncing
>> the Name as it is spelled. Instead, they used circumlocutions like "L-RD",

>> "G-d", "Father", "Heaven", and "the Power".*
>> Shabbat Shalom,Bryce
>>
>> *Truth*

>>
>> The obvious question being what did our Messiah call His Father? It is

>> unimaginable to believe that Messiah would have said, *“Elohim your Father
>> has two Names, one is Adonai **(LORD) **and the other is Elohim (G-d).”*No,
>> he, as the Word states, *“declared,”* or *“revealed” “Your Name”* and

>> therefore the apostles would have known and understood the titles of El
>> Shaddai, Elohim Almighty and His memorial Name, Yahvah.
>> It has been said that the holy Name of Elohim only appears in the Tenach

>> and never in the *“Books of the Messiah”* *(also called the New Testament)
>> *. The truth being, that the removal of the blessed Name Yahvah, was not

>> the doing of its authors, nor the apostles, but was the erroneous result of
>> Hellenisation, the translation of the writings of the apostles into Greek.
>> At a closer examination, we will find many verses where the holy Name of
>> Elohim occurs in their writing.

>> Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of hwhy Yahvah *(the LORD)*” Matthew

>> 21:9. See also Matthew 23:39, Mark 11:9, Luke 13:35 and John 12:13.
>> We must remember, that this verse is a direct quotation from Psalms 118:26.

>> There the Hebrew says, *“in the Name of* hwhy *- Yahvah.”*

>> Again – “hwhy Yahvah said unto my Lord, sit at My right hand” Matthew
>> 22:44. From Psalms 110:1.
>> Each of these verses, and many others quoted in the writings of the
>> apostles, come directly from Tenach, which always uses the four-letter Name
>> of Elohim, hwhy Yahvah. Thus, it is my firm belief that the apostles who
>> had received from the Messiah the declaration, and the revelation of Elohim
>> 's Name, used it in their original writings of the Gospels, especially when
>> they were writing down direct quotes from the Tenach.

>> The book of Revelation has this quote from “*The song of Moses*, the

>> servant of Elohim, and the song of the Lamb, saying: ‘Great and marvellous

>> are Your works, Yahvah El Shaddai -* **(the LORD G-d Almighty)*! Just and

>> true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Yahvah,
>> and glorify Your Name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come
>> and worship before You” Revelation15:3-4.
>> To me this proves that the Name of Yahvah Elohim has not changed, and that
>> all the faithful out of the nations, and those of Israel will know His Name!

>> Another thought in relation to the usage on the holy Name in the *“Books
>> of the Messiah”* is this. In Revelation the phrase “Hallelu'*Yah**”* is

>> used some 20 times, thus there without any doubt we find the blessed Name

>> “*Yah*,” which is the short version of Yahvah. Some have said that the
>> word *“LORD,” “Adonai”* or *“Kurios”* was used in the apostles quotations,

>> and not the Tetragrammaton. No! As I have already stated earlier, when the

>> four-letter Name of Elohim hwhy appears in Scripture, Hebrews might say *
>> “Adonai,”* or *“HaShem”* *(the Name)*, however, to this day, when writing

>> the Name of Elohim on Torah Scrolls, the scribes always write Elohim’s Name
>> as, hwhy. Thus, the Name was never lost or forgotten in the written form.
>> Thus, the very Hebraic apostles would have also used hwhy Yahvah in their
>> manuscripts, as they wrote the Gospels. From language styles compared with
>> the Tenach translation to the Greek, the Septuagint, it appears that the
>> four Gospels were without doubt, originally written in Hebrew, and later
>> translated to Greek. One argument is that Aramaic was the language of the
>> day, thus it should have been written in Aramaic. It is also claimed, by
>> another Sydney TV pastor, that the Messiah went about speaking and teaching
>> in perfect Greek. What, speaking Greek to the Hebrew peasants and fishermen,
>> who only knew Aramaic and Hebrew? It must not be forgotten that in the

>> Temple at the time of our Messiah, continuing up to this very day, *ALL
>> Prayers and Scriptures are recited in Hebrew*, no matter the nationality,
>> and language of the Hebrew *(Jewish)* person.

>> The sad fact is beloved, it has been an evil conspiracy to destroy the
>> usage of the blessed Name of Elohim, and that of His only begotten Son.

>> However, those who oppose Elohim *(adversary - satan)* can never destroy

>> the blessed Memorial Name of Elohim, but did succeed in persuading the
>> faithful in the Messiah to forget it. There has even been a variety of

>> substitute Names to confuse the matter. Now in these *“latter days”* there
>> are even some believers who might say, *“It does not matter if we really
>> know or use the Name.”* Beloved, more than ever do we need to use the
>> everlasting Name, and correct title of Elohim *(not “God,” which is
>> actually pagan),* this will ensure that those individuals we share the

>> Word with, will know the difference between the one and only true Elohim,
>> Yahvah, and the many gods believed in throughout the world.
>> Shalom Kosta
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====
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>>
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>> JerusalemCouncil.org <http://jerusalemcouncil.org/>. If you have questions

[Bryce Henderson]

Israel,

Here is how someone replied to your Exodus 4:10 idea:

The original passage in Exodus 4:10 did have God's name, but it was changed by the scribes to 'Adonai' to fit their theology. This was one of 134 instances generally termed the "134 Emendations of the Sopherim" in academic circles. For a full list, check out the Massorah (107-115, Ginsburg's Edition), or the 32nd Appendix of the Bullinger study Bible. 

So, ACTUALLY, Moses did address God by name, as did Abraham, David, etc. etc. and this verse and 133 others were literally altered by the scribes because it didn't fit their theology.

Furthermore, we have writings from the Assyrians and other ancient nations indicating that Israel in the First Temple era used God's name in a public and normal way, and didn't circumlocute. 

I have no problem with using circumlocutions, as it was the practice of Yeshua and the Apostles. But to say that everyone throughout history replaced God's name with 'Adonai' is historically inconsistent, in my opinion.

What do you think of these 134 instances? I've heard of this before, but I don't know whether it is true or not.

Shalom,

brYce

On 2011-05-23, at 5:28 PM, Israel wrote:

[Israel]

It's a good question. I will have to research! :)

shalom,

Israel

[iserv...@mac.com]

Check out my note on Facebook too. I've posted some thoughts and I'll be posting more tonight. 

The first of this list of 134 is Gen. 18:3, but I don't believe it's accurate because according to Ex. 6:2-3 Avraham didn't know the Name. 

Sent from my iPhone

[pathfinder]

Hi, everyone. While in agreement with most in your post, Shalom
Kosta, it seems proper for me to stress the importance, also, in the
'difference'. Because, remembering the statement made by Jeshua, "I
have taught them thy name" there is reason to wonder why we did not
get that part of any message or reference to it, made by what we had
been taught as his {Jeshua's} message. While Jeshua was teaching the
gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, we finish with "the gospel of Jesus
christ" No logic there until some other words of Jeshua ring as truth,
given in a parable of his, "So they say, 'come, let us seize upon him
and so that his inheritance will be our's.'That's criminal " And I
strongly suspect that what Jeshua wrote, what he spoke that was
written down by someone else, as well as hearsay, was or became as a
part of his inheritance. Therefore, he is the word or he is
not???

On May 20, 4:35 pm, Kosta Guyer <andersgu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Shalom My Brothers,
> Here is an indepth article form my teacher Reuven Goossens which is given here in Three Parts, which clarifies the understanding of the Hebrew name of God and the Messiah and why we should use them.
>
> hwhy YHVH
> The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)
> Part One “Magnify His Name”This study, I pray, will touch and uplift every believer, for in it we are going to rediscover the wonderful Name of YHVH Elohim (the LORD G-d), blessed be His holy Name! Most pastors and teachers of the Word, tend to leave this subject well alone. However, I believe it to be a subject of great importance, and one that should be dealt with. The Word tells me, that I am a child, a son of the living Elohim, in and through the precious name of “His only begotten Son.” Thus, if I am a son of the living Elohim, blessed be He, then I have the right to know my Father’s Name!
>

> “I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty” 2 Corinthians 6:18.As sons and daughters of the living Elohim, we often praise our heavenly Father by singing, “Magnify His Name in all the earth.” Also, when we pray that beautiful prayer, our Messiah taught us, we say, “Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name.” If we think about it, we will realise that we often say “Thy Name” or “His Name” but never actually use the Name of our Elohim (G-d). I am speaking of that wonderful Name, which was given to us in His Word.

> In this study, we are going to delve deep into this special subject, and by the end I pray, we will be able to “Magnify His NAME in all the earth” by pronouncing, and using His wonderful Name. Hallelujah.
>

> “You shall love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength” Deuteronomy 6:5.As an orthodox Hebrew (Jew), I was taught never to use the blessed Name of Elohim as given to us in “Ha Davar,” – “The Word.” Therefore, we Hebrews pronounce it as, “Adonai” meaning “Lord.” In the Tenach (incorrectly called the Old Testament), wherever the four-letter Name of Elohim occurs in Hebrew (hwhy the Tetragrammaton), it is written in English as “LORD” in capital letters. The question we should ask, are the words, ”God” or “LORD” the actual name of our Heavenly Father? Certainly not, for both these words are attributes of the Almighty Elohim, blessed be He, they are NOT names!

> However, now being “born again” and a child of the living Elohim, filled with His Spirit, I sought Abba (Father) Elohim, regarding the blessed “memorial Name,” which He proclaimed in Exodus 3:15. After much prayer, and seeking an answer from Father Elohim, I received one, therefore this work, which is presented to you in faith and love, as a brother in the Messiah.
> What then, is the Name we should love above all others? Our parents name? Our children’s name? Or our own name? No, the Name we should love above all others is the blessed Name of our heavenly Father and that of His precious Son. We should also realise that the Name of Elohim is included in the name of our blessed Messiah. Most are content to call our heavenly Father, and His “only begotten Son” by an assortment of accepted English titles and substitutes, like God, LORD, or Lord, Messiah and Christ. We should understand that none of these are actual Names. All of the aforementioned are in fact attributes and titles and they must be defined, for sadly in these “latter days,” there are many “gods” and “christs.” (Read 1 Corinthians 8:5 and Matthew 24:5).
> The faithful in the Messiah are well aware that there is only one true Elohim, the Creator, the Almighty Elohim, blessed be He! However, other faiths and cults use the same words as those in the TRUTH. Words and titles like, God, Lord, Christ and Almighty, when referring to their gods. Therefore it is important that we, the faithful in Messiah, define what we mean when using these terms.
> It is for this reason I believe, it is important that we the faithful to know the “memorial Name” of our Elohim and the true name of His Son, our Messiah and Saviour! Why is it so important? Because for so long, the pagan Church of Rome has influenced the greater “Church,” with its vile doctrine and has changed the perception of “the LORD God” and their “Christ” to the point that many “Christians” have began to think of “the Christ” as being “a Christian,” rather than a Hebrew (a Judean). During a diner discussion with a senior pastor (who happens to be a Knight of the Realm, and a Doctor of Theology) some time back, brother Kosta  mentioned about “Jesus’ Hebrew heritage.” Upon hearing this, the pastor exploded, and protested with great indignation and condemned the statement as being “a typical Jewish lie.” It is simply beyond belief, that a man who apparently spent many years at theological college, does not understand the Messiah’s Hebrew background. Or was our Messiah NOT from the House of David? According to the Word, the Messiah and his apostles celebrated all the “Feasts of YHVH - the LORD” and spoke of themselves as being Judean’s (Jews). Tragically, this so-called “man of God” had no conception of who our beloved Messiah really was. Having lost the Memorial Name of Elohim, and the actual name of the Messiah, has meant that “the Church” has gone astray, due to their lack of understanding of the Word and its Hebrew origin. Thus, the many cults. Many feel that Elohim does not need a Name. If this is true, why then … “Praise His Name?”
> I believe, as we come close to Messiah’s return for his faithful, the faithful should know the Name of their Elohim and that of His only begotten Son. We are to praise and magnify Elohim’s Name in all our homes, fellowships, and lands, in order we may be a witness, of who the true and only Elohim is!
> The 1973 edition of the Revised Standard Version (1946) Bible expresses the following about the “Name of the LORD God:
>
> “(1) The word ‘Jehovah’ does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and, (2) the use of any proper Name for the one and only true God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”These translators managed to get it so right, and yet, so terribly wrong! The first point is entirely true, “Jehovah” is NOT the Name of the LORD Elohim, blessed be He, and I will explain later why this is so. Point two however is totally wrong. In fact, it is false teaching!
> The personal Name of Elohim was regularly pronounced up to the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE. Thereafter, around 300 BCE, Israel refrained from uttering the holy Name, out of what could be called extreme reverence for the LORD Elohim. Instead the people of Israel commenced to use the word “Adonai” rather than the four-letter Name of Elohim. “Adonai” in Hebrew means “Lord.” Wherever the Tetragrammaton is quoted in the Word, it is always written as “LORD.” However, the four-letter Name of Elohim, hwhy was, and is still written in all the Tenach (called the Old Testament), be it in book form, or in Scrolls of the Torah (Five Books of Moses). In fact the four-letter Name of Elohim is quoted 6007 times in the Tenach! Thus, be assured in the Hebrew Scriptures, the use of the blessed Name of Elohim, hwhy YHVH, was never “discontinued.” In addition, for the RSV to maintain that it is inappropriate for the LORD Elohim to have a Name is absurd! We all have names, and the LORD Elohim has a Name. It is important that we know the one and only true Elohim and His Son, by Name, for this will make our relationship more personal. Should a child of Elohim not know their Father's Name?
> How often have we prayed the “Lord’s Prayer” and spoken these words, “Hallowed be Thy Name.” Alternatively we have sung, “Glorify Thy Name in all the earth.” Yet it is strange, we do this without thinking, not actually knowing or mentioning His Name? Some might say, “but Reuben, I know the Name of God. It is Jehovah!” Beloved, the truth is, this is a name, which was erroneously created by man. It is NOT the Name revealed in the Word, by the LORD Elohim, blessed be His holy Name!
> That Christian cult, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, will tell you that they are “the only Church who are called by the name of god.” The sad fact is, they have embraced a false name, and a false god, for Jehovah is NOT the name of “YHVH - the LORD of Hosts!” Sadly much of the “Christian” world also use it, and the King James Bible uses “Jehovah” eight times. Some Bibles use it up to several thousand times. Praise the LORD Elohim a number of translations, the like of the New King James, the New American Standard, the New International and the New England Bibles totally reject the Name of “Jehovah.” There is another popular version of the blessed Name of Elohim, this being “Yahweh.” Rather than “Jehovah,” this has been the closest pronunciation to date, but is still not quite correct. By now you will be asking “What then is the blessed Name of the LORD our Elohim?” The next chapter, beloved, will reveal the fullness thereof, for YHVH Elohim, blessed be His wonderful Name, desires you to know His “memorial Name!”
>
> “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘hwhy YHVH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations’” Exodus 3:15.

> Part Two - The Sacred Name RevealedThe Name of the LORD Elohim, YHVH - hwhy including “Yah” - hy is written a total of 6,053 times in the Tenach (the Hebrew Scriptures). When my Hebrew brethren read the Name, as stated before, it is pronounced as “Adonai” which ...
>
> read more »

[pathfinder]

Then Jeshua being the Word and his inheritance was Stolen, what was
therefore taken, and equally so, what was left?
A: True Identity of Jeshua's existence here on earth. A key to this
door can be found in the 13 years of missing public record or
knowledge. Without that knowledge one is most unlikely to
enter. ... .B:
The Truth would make clear his conversation with Satan on the
mount.. .In other words, one would need to
know his Identity in order to Know his Testimony, a token Required
according to The book Revelation; Those whose blood-stained robes were
wash because they had the Testimony of
Jeshua. .......................................................

> ...
>
> read more »

[pathfinder]

I've yet to see a place in scripture where man was instructed to
worship the Messiah, as you have implied "Even worshiping Moshe
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah." God was
specific when he said that he would give his Glory to No other. Can
you imagine being in a relationship with a God who has kept that
promise. Something to have faith in for sure. As for the golden calf,
are you aware that the Druids in this era had arts in the mystical
field that included the sectioning of a cow invoke different powers
from the different sections? Next, it seems that man's preconceived
notions of God always get in his way to arriving at Knowledge, Wisdom,
Understanding. Most insulting. Like saying 'Ok, fit yourself inside
this match-box, so that i may close it up, then i can have faith. Um!
doesn't sound loving. Remember, when loving YHVH with all the mind,
mind signifies intellect. It is the experiences of the relationship
that makes the best difference.

> ...
>
> read more »

[avi5207]

Have you read these verses?

• Mat 2:1-11  Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,  (2)  Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.  (3)  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.  (4)  And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.  (5)  And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by the prophet,  (6)  And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.  (7)  Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.  (8)  And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.  (9)  When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.  (10)  When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.  (11)  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Now my question is if this child was not God in human form why would any worship him since to do so would violate the Torah? Did YHVH send these men with their gifts? How did they know to follow the star? How did they know anything at all unless they were God fearing wise men that knew the scriptures, knew the prophecies? It seems likely these were Babylonian Jews whose ancestors remained in Babylon.

Shalom,


Avi

[pathfinder]

"for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to

_worship him" This is a report for what someone else came to do,
at best, and is Not an instruction for pleasing YHVH.

On Jun 1, 1:55 am, avi5207 <avi5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you read these verses?
>

>     * Mat 2:1-11  Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the

>       days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east
>       to Jerusalem,  (2)  Saying, Where is he that is born King of the
>       Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to

>       _worship him_.  (3)  When Herod the king had heard these things,

>       he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.  (4)  And when he had
>       gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together,
>       he demanded of them where Christ should be born.  (5)  And they
>       said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by
>       the prophet,  (6)  And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art
>       not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall
>       come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.  (7)  Then
>       Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them
>       diligently what time the star appeared.  (8)  And he sent them to
>       Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child;
>       and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come

>       and _worship him_ also.  (9)  When they had heard the king, they

>       departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went
>       before them, till it came and stood over where the young child
>       was.  (10)  When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding
>       great joy.  (11)  And when they were come into the house, they saw

>       the young child with Mary his mother, and _fell down, and
>       worshiped him_: and when they had opened their treasures, they

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[pathfinder]

"Now my question is if this child was not God in human form why would
any
worship him since to do so would violate the Torah? Did YHVH send
these
men with their gifts? How did they know to follow the star? How did
they
know anything at all unless they were God fearing wise men that knew
the
scriptures, knew the prophecies? It seems likely these were
Babylonian
Jews whose ancestors remained in Babylon."

Remember the story of Balaam, that ye may know Righteousness.

On Jun 1, 1:55 am, avi5207 <avi5...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Have you read these verses?
>

>     * Mat 2:1-11  Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the

>       days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east
>       to Jerusalem,  (2)  Saying, Where is he that is born King of the
>       Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to

>       _worship him_.  (3)  When Herod the king had heard these things,

>       he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.  (4)  And when he had
>       gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together,
>       he demanded of them where Christ should be born.  (5)  And they
>       said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by
>       the prophet,  (6)  And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art
>       not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall
>       come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.  (7)  Then
>       Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them
>       diligently what time the star appeared.  (8)  And he sent them to
>       Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child;
>       and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come

>       and _worship him_ also.  (9)  When they had heard the king, they

>       departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went
>       before them, till it came and stood over where the young child
>       was.  (10)  When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding
>       great joy.  (11)  And when they were come into the house, they saw

>       the young child with Mary his mother, and _fell down, and

>       worshiped him_: and when they had opened their treasures, they

[XuS Casal]

As always, the great problem is the greek word proskuneo, that translates the hebrew: Shachah, that means: to prostrate and/or to make a reverence, exactly as the Asian people do today with their superiors. If we think that: 'Proskuneo' means: Worship as we worship God, then we have to accept that King Shaul, Booz, and King David were also Worshipped as we worship God.
That word is one of the worst translations understood by wester culture people.
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-

 

---

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 00:55:09 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Re: The Memorial Name of Elohim (G-d)

Baruch HaShem,

I am SO happy to find out the gospels could have possibly been written  
in Hebrew. It would also make sense if some of the epistles were also  
originally written in Hebrew, especially the Epistle to the Hebrews.  
We should also keep in mind that the Greek manuscripts found were just  
one of MANY (up to 50 of a kind) copies of manuscripts (translated or  
original) of the gospels and epistles circulated in the early Church.  
If they were written in Hebrew/Arameic, and If these manuscripts are  
preserved somewhere, then this would mean we could potentially use the  
same detailed analysis techniques applied to the Torah.

Andy, I couldn't agree with most of your statement more.

But let us also consider the following: I attended bible studies with  
some Christian girls this school year. At the Bible study we would  
exchange opinions on the verses for that day. I would be the one to  
always go into greater detail and accept the challenge of many  
paradoxes inside the gospel, or be best able to explain the  
midrashic/kabbalistic meaning behind the text. But then as soon as the  
Bible study was over the other girls would start talking about random  
secular things, such as movies they saw, places they went, people they  
met etc., and I was still left with the desire to continue discussing  
the Bible after the Bible study was over. To me the Word of G-D is not  
something I leave my daily routine to turn to, to me the Word of G-D  
is something my daily routine Revolves around. I cannot imagine my  
existence if it did not revolve around G-D and the scholarly study of  
knowing Him better and doing His will. It is not about making faith  
complex by studying the TaNaK and Gospels to a greater detail,  
analyzing it word by word; it is about quenching the burning desire to  
know G-D and Christ better, seeing with the heart the spiritual realm,  
transcending mortal nature, discovering practical techniques of  
becoming more holy... It is like a bride who loves her husband (who is  
a gem among all men) so much that she wants to know everything about  
him, she wants to spend time with him, she wants to find what is it  
that pleases him to the tiniest detail - and then goes about doing it  
- even though she knows His love for her is unconditional and is not  
based on those tiny details; she cannot stop thinking about him and  
wants to perfect herself according to his will and desires. This is  
what our relationship with G-D should be like. But G-D made it soooo  
simple in Christ. G-D loves us, both the Church and Israel, He loves  
us soooo much, that he made it simple enough for the Church to be  
unconditionally loved and saved, and yet he made it complex enough to  
quench Israel's desire to know G-D better and please Him to the  
tiniest detail. We all love G-D, but the expression of love is  
different across churches, synagogues, and different individuals  
within both. I have friends in my school that are right now on a  
mission trip in Azerbaijan, and this is their expression of love.  
Apostle Paul expressed his love both through mission trips as well as  
studying every facet of TaNaK. There are also those within both the  
Church and Israel that do only the study and then contribute to the  
scholarly knowledge of G-D and TaNaK. At the same time there are those  
organs in the Body of Christ who do worship and acts of  
loving-kindness. We cannot dismiss any of those parts. The issue at  
hand is not one of the Jewish community dismissing the Christian  
freedom of expression of love for G-D, rather the issue is the Jewish  
community being too often suppressed in Their expression of love for  
G-D, through various stereotypes such as the stigmas attached to the  
Talmud, Kabbala, Orthodox Jewish observances, and Judaism in general.  
To love G-D with all your heart is to place him at the foundations of  
your personal universe, to Build your own world on the Rock of Christ.  
The heart of a person is that space within your soul where you build  
your own personal universe in - everything you hope for, everything  
you desire, all of your endeavors, all of your goals, everything you  
are aware of, your whole personal version of the world, your life,  
your everything. Your eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth are openings to  
your soul and your heart. If you shine in darkness your heart will be  
dark. But if you let the Word of G-D and Christ come in then you will  
have Light in your heart and in your life. Judaism is often about  
keeping this space within the soul as uncontaminated and as pure as  
possible. Even though we have Christ, it is often hard to keep out the  
impure influences of TV, internet, cinema, unbelieving friends, the  
thorns of the world, and the damage sin (even unconscious sin) brings  
to our welfare during this physical life. Judaism is very much about  
building a fence to protect one from these adverse influences. It is  
also about quenching the soul's thirst for knowing G-D better and  
filling every tiny detail of mundane everydayness with Torah.  
Ordaining yearly holidays around times and seasons appointed in Torah  
makes one think about Torah in anticipation of these events and allows  
to live out Torah and to almost live through the Torah events. Nothing  
can replace the pristine sweetness of Shabbat which is a taste of  
holiness and the carefree life in the Garden of Eden. At the same time  
nothing can replace the pristine sweetness of deep-hearted  
Spirit-filled tearful prayer in Christ. It is not true that as  
observance steps in spirituality steps out. Sometimes Christ wants  
some individuals to turn to their Jewishness and tradition. A problem  
arises when a Christian leaves Christ to turn to Judaism - that is  
totally wrong and almost assuredly leads out of Heaven. To express our  
love for Christ we should do the best we can, with the understanding  
and abilities we have, in the place where we were when Christ called  
us to him. But to blame the Jews for being too complex about faith is  
absolutely wrong. How about me blaming you now that you are being too  
complex about playing sports? Or that you are being too complex about  
studying chemistry/physics? Or that you go into too great of a detail  
into studying ancient archeology? Or that you submit yourself to too  
strict diets? In fact, studying the Bible to a great detail is the  
best paid job in the world, and it is the job of the Jews. Just look  
at all the blessings G-D has poured on the Jewish people and Israel.  
Israel is the Torah nation, so let Israel exploit and present to the  
world(of anarchy) the Torah modeling of individual/family life,  
political/economic/legal systems arrangement,  
worship/prayer/meditation/reading technicalities, friendships/marriage  
details etc. This group is about studying the Bible to as great detail  
as other sciences are studied, and the Bible is the most important  
document in the whole word so I am unscrupulous about encouraging  
everyone in this group contribute in innovative ways to painstaking  
research throughout the Book that gives Life to every one of us.

I also encourage those with different gifts to export the simplicity  
of the Gospel and the Good News of the Salvation in Yeshua to the four  
corners of the world. This is how simple that Gospel is:

47 days after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea under the  
leadership of Moshe, Moshe went up on Mount Sinai. He stayed there for  
40 days, but the people didn't know for how long he was going to stay  
there. After only few days of waiting for Moshe to come down from the  
mountain, the people got scared they had perhaps lost their leader who  
was their only mediator and form of communication they had between  
them and G-D. In their fear that losing Moshe would mean losing their  
touch with HaShem which they had experienced so profoundly on their  
way out of Egypt, they decided to make for themselves another medium  
of communicating with G-D, namely the golden calf. They were not  
necessarily asking for a replacement of the One and True G-D, HaShem,  
which led them out of Egypt, they were merely asking a replacement for  
Moshe, who has been set before them as their leader/savior, but who  
was now gone: when the people saw that Moshe delayed coming down from  
the mountain, the people came to Aaron, and said to him: 'Up, make us  
a god [Elohim] who shall go before us [ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½  
ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½]; for as for this Moshe, the man that brought us up  
out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him' (Exodus  
32:1). That Moshe was set AS a god before them we can read in Exodus  
7:1, "And the LORD said unto Moshe: 'See, I have made thee a god  
[Elohim] to Pharaoh [ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½]; and Aaron  
thy brother shall be thy prophet." Even though their reasoning were  
logical and their intentions were good, worshiping the golden calf was  
a wrong form of worship. Even worshiping Moshe who was like an Elohim  
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah. However,  
worshiping Yeshua is permitted, and calling Him Elohim is also  
permitted - G-D The Father has finally given humanity a simple and  
proper way of worshiping HaShem, a physical medium to whom men of  
flesh can relate in their spiritual simplicity and ignorance, namely,  
Jesus Christ.

Shalom Rav,

Anna

Quoting Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>:

Xus is correct.

The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:

Exodus 4:10
 *ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½* ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½
ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½:

*And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord...**"*

It is within the context of:

Ex 3:15God,

...

read more ן¿½

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This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we recommend you change your delivery options to ן¿½Daily Summaryן¿½ or ן¿½Abridged."

[Jeff A]

B"H

That is a true statement.  It is a word translated into English to support a doctrine, rather than to covet what the writer was saying. A better English word would be "homage."

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah! Jeff

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

Baruch HaShem,

I am SO happy to find out the gospels could have possibly been written  
in Hebrew. It would also make sense if some of the epistles were also  
originally written in Hebrew, especially the Epistle to the Hebrews.  
We should also keep in mind that the Greek manuscripts found were just  
one of MANY (up to 50 of a kind) copies of manuscripts (translated or  
original) of the gospels and epistles circulated in the early Church.  
If they were written in Hebrew/Arameic, and If these manuscripts are  
preserved somewhere, then this would mean we could potentially use the  
same detailed analysis techniques applied to the Torah.

Andy, I couldn't agree with most of your statement more.

But let us also consider the following: I attended bible studies with  
some Christian girls this school year. At the Bible study we would  
exchange opinions on the verses for that day. I would be the one to  
always go into greater detail and accept the challenge of many  
paradoxes inside the gospel, or be best able to explain the  
midrashic/kabbalistic meaning behind the text. But then as soon as the  
Bible study was over the other girls would start talking about random  
secular things, such as movies they saw, places they went, people they  
met etc., and I was still left with the desire to continue discussing  
the Bible after the Bible study was over. To me the Word of G-D is not  
something I leave my daily routine to turn to, to me the Word of G-D  
is something my daily routine Revolves around. I cannot imagine my  
existence if it did not revolve around G-D and the scholarly study of  
knowing Him better and doing His will. It is not about making faith  
complex by studying the TaNaK and Gospels to a greater detail,  
analyzing it word by word; it is about quenching the burning desire to  
know G-D and Christ better, seeing with the heart the spiritual realm,  
transcending mortal nature, discovering practical techniques of  
becoming more holy... It is like a bride who loves her husband (who is  
a gem among all men) so much that she wants to know everything about  
him, she wants to spend time with him, she wants to find what is it  
that pleases him to the tiniest detail - and then goes about doing it  
- even though she knows His love for her is unconditional and is not  
based on those tiny details; she cannot stop thinking about him and  
wants to perfect herself according to his will and desires. This is  
what our relationship with G-D should be like. But G-D made it soooo  
simple in Christ. G-D loves us, both the Church and Israel, He loves  
us soooo much, that he made it simple enough for the Church to be  
unconditionally loved and saved, and yet he made it complex enough to  
quench Israel's desire to know G-D better and please Him to the  
tiniest detail. We all love G-D, but the expression of love is  
different across churches, synagogues, and different individuals  
within both. I have friends in my school that are right now on a  
mission trip in Azerbaijan, and this is their expression of love.  
Apostle Paul expressed his love both through mission trips as well as  
studying every facet of TaNaK. There are also those within both the  
Church and Israel that do only the study and then contribute to the  
scholarly knowledge of G-D and TaNaK. At the same time there are those  
organs in the Body of Christ who do worship and acts of  
loving-kindness. We cannot dismiss any of those parts. The issue at  
hand is not one of the Jewish community dismissing the Christian  
freedom of expression of love for G-D, rather the issue is the Jewish  
community being too often suppressed in Their expression of love for  
G-D, through various stereotypes such as the stigmas attached to the  
Talmud, Kabbala, Orthodox Jewish observances, and Judaism in general.  
To love G-D with all your heart is to place him at the foundations of  
your personal universe, to Build your own world on the Rock of Christ.  
The heart of a person is that space within your soul where you build  
your own personal universe in - everything you hope for, everything  
you desire, all of your endeavors, all of your goals, everything you  
are aware of, your whole personal version of the world, your life,  
your everything. Your eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth are openings to  
your soul and your heart. If you shine in darkness your heart will be  
dark. But if you let the Word of G-D and Christ come in then you will  
have Light in your heart and in your life. Judaism is often about  
keeping this space within the soul as uncontaminated and as pure as  
possible. Even though we have Christ, it is often hard to keep out the  
impure influences of TV, internet, cinema, unbelieving friends, the  
thorns of the world, and the damage sin (even unconscious sin) brings  
to our welfare during this physical life. Judaism is very much about  
building a fence to protect one from these adverse influences. It is  
also about quenching the soul's thirst for knowing G-D better and  
filling every tiny detail of mundane everydayness with Torah.  
Ordaining yearly holidays around times and seasons appointed in Torah  
makes one think about Torah in anticipation of these events and allows  
to live out Torah and to almost live through the Torah events. Nothing  
can replace the pristine sweetness of Shabbat which is a taste of  
holiness and the carefree life in the Garden of Eden. At the same time  
nothing can replace the pristine sweetness of deep-hearted  
Spirit-filled tearful prayer in Christ. It is not true that as  
observance steps in spirituality steps out. Sometimes Christ wants  
some individuals to turn to their Jewishness and tradition. A problem  
arises when a Christian leaves Christ to turn to Judaism - that is  
totally wrong and almost assuredly leads out of Heaven. To express our  
love for Christ we should do the best we can, with the understanding  
and abilities we have, in the place where we were when Christ called  
us to him. But to blame the Jews for being too complex about faith is  
absolutely wrong. How about me blaming you now that you are being too  
complex about playing sports? Or that you are being too complex about  
studying chemistry/physics? Or that you go into too great of a detail  
into studying ancient archeology? Or that you submit yourself to too  
strict diets? In fact, studying the Bible to a great detail is the  
best paid job in the world, and it is the job of the Jews. Just look  
at all the blessings G-D has poured on the Jewish people and Israel.  
Israel is the Torah nation, so let Israel exploit and present to the  
world(of anarchy) the Torah modeling of individual/family life,  
political/economic/legal systems arrangement,  
worship/prayer/meditation/reading technicalities, friendships/marriage  
details etc. This group is about studying the Bible to as great detail  
as other sciences are studied, and the Bible is the most important  
document in the whole word so I am unscrupulous about encouraging  
everyone in this group contribute in innovative ways to painstaking  
research throughout the Book that gives Life to every one of us.

I also encourage those with different gifts to export the simplicity  
of the Gospel and the Good News of the Salvation in Yeshua to the four  
corners of the world. This is how simple that Gospel is:

47 days after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea under the  
leadership of Moshe, Moshe went up on Mount Sinai. He stayed there for  
40 days, but the people didn't know for how long he was going to stay  
there. After only few days of waiting for Moshe to come down from the  
mountain, the people got scared they had perhaps lost their leader who  
was their only mediator and form of communication they had between  
them and G-D. In their fear that losing Moshe would mean losing their  
touch with HaShem which they had experienced so profoundly on their  
way out of Egypt, they decided to make for themselves another medium  
of communicating with G-D, namely the golden calf. They were not  
necessarily asking for a replacement of the One and True G-D, HaShem,  
which led them out of Egypt, they were merely asking a replacement for  
Moshe, who has been set before them as their leader/savior, but who  
was now gone: when the people saw that Moshe delayed coming down from  
the mountain, the people came to Aaron, and said to him: 'Up, make us  
a god [Elohim] who shall go before us [ עֲשֵׂה-לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר  
יֵלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ]; for as for this Moshe, the man that brought us up  
out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him' (Exodus  
32:1). That Moshe was set AS a god before them we can read in Exodus  
7:1, "And the LORD said unto Moshe: 'See, I have made thee a god  
[Elohim] to Pharaoh [רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה]; and Aaron  
thy brother shall be thy prophet." Even though their reasoning were  
logical and their intentions were good, worshiping the golden calf was  
a wrong form of worship. Even worshiping Moshe who was like an Elohim  
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah. However,  
worshiping Yeshua is permitted, and calling Him Elohim is also  
permitted - G-D The Father has finally given humanity a simple and  
proper way of worshiping HaShem, a physical medium to whom men of  
flesh can relate in their spiritual simplicity and ignorance, namely,  
Jesus Christ.

Shalom Rav,

Anna

Quoting Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>:

Xus is correct.

The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:

Exodus 4:10
 *ויאמר משה אל-יהוה בי אדני* לא איש דברים אנכי גם מתמול גם משלשם גם מאז דברך
אל-עבדך כי כבד-פה וכבד לשון אנכי:

*And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord...**"*

It is within the context of:

Ex 3:15God,

...

read more »

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[avi5207]

Really? Why then were these men not openly rebuked by YHVH? Why would
YHVH allow (according to some) idolaters to find His only begotten Son
Yeshua and worship Him? Or is this account in the NT just some
superfluous junk? If these wise men were practicing idolatry why were
their gifts accepted? Remember no man was found worthy to open the book?
Only the Lamb is worthy. It is not idolatry to worship God no matter
what form He chooses to appear in. If YHVH appeared before you in the
form of a man as He has before would you bow down and worship Him once
you knew the image before you represented YHVH? If YHVH (the Father
aspect of His deity) appeared in this realm the heavens and earth would
be destroyed. In fact this is a prophecy for the end of days as you well
know. YHVH appeared to man as a son of man, a form that would not
destroy those that looked upon Him. In the same sense we are to be a
form of YHVH in this realm. A form that fully reflects the nature of His
deity. How is this possible? Love, mercy and justice are YHVH's
principle aspects that have manifested to us in His Son Yeshua that all
who believe in Him should receive salvation, eternal life and joy
unspeakable. This is grace and it truly is sufficient for us. It is His
Holy Spirit that imbues all true believers with these and many other
aspects of YHVH our creator and Heavenly Father's deity. So in
conclusion I find that all man was created in the image of YHVH as the
scriptures say thus we are to esteem one another, give honor and
respect, kindness and mercy, charity and patience and most especially
love to each other. In this way we worship, honor and love YHVH in a way
truly pleasing to Him.

Shalom,

Avi

>> read more �- Hide quoted text -

[avi5207]

Really? So am I to understand that you do not believe Yeshua is worthy of worship? Is He God in the flesh as the Bible tells us or not? Since YHVH the Father told Peter that Yeshua was His Son and the long awaited Messiah do you think Peter understood that Yeshua was only a man? If a man has God's Spirit within him what is he? Is the man just a man or is the man much more? If the Holy Spirit abides in a true believer then the true believer is purged of ALL uncleanness, All sin and becomes holy as God is Holy. The true believer in every way becomes a form of God in the flesh. The difference between a true believer and Yeshua is primarily the fact that Yeshua had the Spirit of YHVH without measure. A true believer has only those aspects and gifts given.


Shalom,


Avi

Baruch HaShem,

I am SO happy to find out the gospels could have possibly been written  
in Hebrew. It would also make sense if some of the epistles were also  
originally written in Hebrew, especially the Epistle to the Hebrews.  
We should also keep in mind that the Greek manuscripts found were just  
one of MANY (up to 50 of a kind) copies of manuscripts (translated or  
original) of the gospels and epistles circulated in the early Church.  
If they were written in Hebrew/Arameic, and If these manuscripts are  
preserved somewhere, then this would mean we could potentially use the  
same detailed analysis techniques applied to the Torah.

Andy, I couldn't agree with most of your statement more.

But let us also consider the following: I attended bible studies with  
some Christian girls this school year. At the Bible study we would  
exchange opinions on the verses for that day. I would be the one to  
always go into greater detail and accept the challenge of many  
paradoxes inside the gospel, or be best able to explain the  
midrashic/kabbalistic meaning behind the text. But then as soon as the  
Bible study was over the other girls would start talking about random  
secular things, such as movies they saw, places they went, people they  
met etc., and I was still left with the desire to continue discussing  
the Bible after the Bible study was over. To me the Word of G-D is not  
something I leave my daily routine to turn to, to me the Word of G-D  
is something my daily routine Revolves around. I cannot imagine my  
existence if it did not revolve around G-D and the scholarly study of  
knowing Him better and doing His will. It is not about making faith  
complex by studying the TaNaK and Gospels to a greater detail,  
analyzing it word by word; it is about quenching the burning desire to  
know G-D and Christ better, seeing with the heart the spiritual realm,  
transcending mortal nature, discovering practical techniques of  
becoming more holy... It is like a bride who loves her husband (who is  
a gem among all men) so much that she wants to know everything about  
him, she wants to spend time with him, she wants to find what is it  
that pleases him to the tiniest detail - and then goes about doing it  
- even though she knows His love for her is unconditional and is not  
based on those tiny details; she cannot stop thinking about him and  
wants to perfect herself according to his will and desires. This is  
what our relationship with G-D should be like. But G-D made it soooo  
simple in Christ. G-D loves us, both the Church and Israel, He loves  
us soooo much, that he made it simple enough for the Church to be  
unconditionally loved and saved, and yet he made it complex enough to  
quench Israel's desire to know G-D better and please Him to the  
tiniest detail. We all love G-D, but the expression of love is  
different across churches, synagogues, and different individuals  
within both. I have friends in my school that are right now on a  
mission trip in Azerbaijan, and this is their expression of love.  
Apostle Paul expressed his love both through mission trips as well as  
studying every facet of TaNaK. There are also those within both the  
Church and Israel that do only the study and then contribute to the  
scholarly knowledge of G-D and TaNaK. At the same time there are those  
organs in the Body of Christ who do worship and acts of  
loving-kindness. We cannot dismiss any of those parts. The issue at  
hand is not one of the Jewish community dismissing the Christian  
freedom of expression of love for G-D, rather the issue is the Jewish  
community being too often suppressed in Their expression of love for  
G-D, through various stereotypes such as the stigmas attached to the  
Talmud, Kabbala, Orthodox Jewish observances, and Judaism in general.  
To love G-D with all your heart is to place him at the foundations of  
your personal universe, to Build your own world on the Rock of Christ.  
The heart of a person is that space within your soul where you build  
your own personal universe in - everything you hope for, everything  
you desire, all of your endeavors, all of your goals, everything you  
are aware of, your whole personal version of the world, your life,  
your everything. Your eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth are openings to  
your soul and your heart. If you shine in darkness your heart will be  
dark. But if you let the Word of G-D and Christ come in then you will  
have Light in your heart and in your life. Judaism is often about  
keeping this space within the soul as uncontaminated and as pure as  
possible. Even though we have Christ, it is often hard to keep out the  
impure influences of TV, internet, cinema, unbelieving friends, the  
thorns of the world, and the damage sin (even unconscious sin) brings  
to our welfare during this physical life. Judaism is very much about  
building a fence to protect one from these adverse influences. It is  
also about quenching the soul's thirst for knowing G-D better and  
filling every tiny detail of mundane everydayness with Torah.  
Ordaining yearly holidays around times and seasons appointed in Torah  
makes one think about Torah in anticipation of these events and allows  
to live out Torah and to almost live through the Torah events. Nothing  
can replace the pristine sweetness of Shabbat which is a taste of  
holiness and the carefree life in the Garden of Eden. At the same time  
nothing can replace the pristine sweetness of deep-hearted  
Spirit-filled tearful prayer in Christ. It is not true that as  
observance steps in spirituality steps out. Sometimes Christ wants  
some individuals to turn to their Jewishness and tradition. A problem  
arises when a Christian leaves Christ to turn to Judaism - that is  
totally wrong and almost assuredly leads out of Heaven. To express our  
love for Christ we should do the best we can, with the understanding  
and abilities we have, in the place where we were when Christ called  
us to him. But to blame the Jews for being too complex about faith is  
absolutely wrong. How about me blaming you now that you are being too  
complex about playing sports? Or that you are being too complex about  
studying chemistry/physics? Or that you go into too great of a detail  
into studying ancient archeology? Or that you submit yourself to too  
strict diets? In fact, studying the Bible to a great detail is the  
best paid job in the world, and it is the job of the Jews. Just look  
at all the blessings G-D has poured on the Jewish people and Israel.  
Israel is the Torah nation, so let Israel exploit and present to the  
world(of anarchy) the Torah modeling of individual/family life,  
political/economic/legal systems arrangement,  
worship/prayer/meditation/reading technicalities, friendships/marriage  
details etc. This group is about studying the Bible to as great detail  
as other sciences are studied, and the Bible is the most important  
document in the whole word so I am unscrupulous about encouraging  
everyone in this group contribute in innovative ways to painstaking  
research throughout the Book that gives Life to every one of us.

I also encourage those with different gifts to export the simplicity  
of the Gospel and the Good News of the Salvation in Yeshua to the four  
corners of the world. This is how simple that Gospel is:

47 days after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea under the  
leadership of Moshe, Moshe went up on Mount Sinai. He stayed there for  
40 days, but the people didn't know for how long he was going to stay  
there. After only few days of waiting for Moshe to come down from the  
mountain, the people got scared they had perhaps lost their leader who  
was their only mediator and form of communication they had between  
them and G-D. In their fear that losing Moshe would mean losing their  
touch with HaShem which they had experienced so profoundly on their  
way out of Egypt, they decided to make for themselves another medium  
of communicating with G-D, namely the golden calf. They were not  
necessarily asking for a replacement of the One and True G-D, HaShem,  
which led them out of Egypt, they were merely asking a replacement for  
Moshe, who has been set before them as their leader/savior, but who  
was now gone: when the people saw that Moshe delayed coming down from  
the mountain, the people came to Aaron, and said to him: 'Up, make us  
a god [Elohim] who shall go before us [ עֲשֵׂה-לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר  
יֵלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ]; for as for this Moshe, the man that brought us up  
out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him' (Exodus  
32:1). That Moshe was set AS a god before them we can read in Exodus  
7:1, "And the LORD said unto Moshe: 'See, I have made thee a god  
[Elohim] to Pharaoh [רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה]; and Aaron  
thy brother shall be thy prophet." Even though their reasoning were  
logical and their intentions were good, worshiping the golden calf was  
a wrong form of worship. Even worshiping Moshe who was like an Elohim  
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah. However,  
worshiping Yeshua is permitted, and calling Him Elohim is also  
permitted - G-D The Father has finally given humanity a simple and  
proper way of worshiping HaShem, a physical medium to whom men of  
flesh can relate in their spiritual simplicity and ignorance, namely,  
Jesus Christ.

Shalom Rav,

Anna

Quoting Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>:

Xus is correct.

The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:

Exodus 4:10
 *ויאמר משה אל-יהוה בי אדני* לא איש דברים אנכי גם מתמול גם משלשם גם מאז דברך
אל-עבדך כי כבד-פה וכבד לשון אנכי:

*And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord...**"*

It is within the context of:

Ex 3:15God,

...

read more »

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[edward mason]

" Is He God in the flesh as the Bible tells us or not? "

Where do you read
in the Bible that he (Yeshua) is G_d in the flesh?
"this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased" is the way it's
read in this Bible, and is a statement by God that Yeshua had
performed pleasingly, according to the instructions which he had
received from his FATHER. This is where Yeshua instructed us on
receiving his Testimony; "study the scripture, for they testify of
me". I suggest that one start that search in Isaiah 6:9---, then refer
Matthew 13: where his disciples wanted to know why he was always
speaking before and teaching all but that few, in parables. Again in
Isa. we find "he shall not cause his voice to be heard in the street."
This lends interest in others words of Yeshua, 'lord you know us , you
taught in our streets.' \ Where he replies, 'depart from me ye workers
of iniquity I never knew you' ..........Remember the commandment, THOU
SHALT PUT NO OTHER god BEFORE ME, NOR TO BOW DOWN.....?

[edward mason]

"Remember the story of Balaam so that ye may know the righteousness of
the Lord."

>>> read more »- Hide quoted text -

>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>

[XuS Casal]

Hi, bro Avi, I wasn't preaching. I've just exposed a fact about the hebrew word: Shachah. A fact that cannot be contradicted, but can be 100% demostrated. Whether Christians (and friends) like it or not, the word: Shachah doesn't mean to "Worship" as we understand this english word today. The people who wants the Truth, should humbly accept the facts that cannot be contradicted. That's all.
 
 Now, if you wanna resume the debate about the Divinity of Yeshua, I accept the offer. But I wish a respectful and kind conversation, because I don't believe that people go to hell by accepting or not that Yeshua is god.

 
am I to understand that you do not believe Yeshua is worthy of worship?
 

He is worthy of every knee bow down to him. He is worthy of every human being accept him as king, he is worthy of people listen to him as they are listening God himself. That's the honor given to him in Torah. Is not enough? Why should we give the Praise that only belongs to God (Is 42:8) to a man?

 
Is He God in the flesh as the Bible tells us or not?
 

There's no such verse in Bible. That's the point. God is not a human being (Nm 23:19). But He interacts with humankind through the created things (Rom 1:19-20), the biggest of them being 'the Messiah' (Dt 18:19).
We learn in Judaism that (Gn 1:27) God created Adam (human being) in His tselem (abstract similitude in essence [cf. Psalm 102:6] ), when (Gn 2:7) he put in him Nishmat-Hayim (spiritual inteligence of Life [cf. Job 32:8]).
 
The foundation [Yesod] of Adam was God. Adam was outstanding [Hod] over all created things. God emanated his magnificence [tiferet] unto Adam. And by his mercy [chesed] gave him His crown [Keter] to rule phisically in this kingdom [malchut] (Gn 1:28) with understanding [Binah], wisdom [chochmah], and greatness [gevurah]. But Adam lost his crown when didn't gain the victory [Netzach] against temptation (serpent). Then he was separated from the Tree of Life. But the Seed of the woman would get back the original authority of Adam (Gn 3:15); That's the Messiah, someone who win the victory against the enemy (serpent).
 
Remember that God said to Kain: "if you practice more and more what is right, you shall be elevated" (Gn 4:7). How much goodness the Messiah would do, that God said to him: "Sit at my right hand" (Psalm 110:1)? Because: "You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows" (Psalm 45:7). That's why we call him the Messiah (the anointed one). Messiah is the restored man. Restored to his original level of closeness with God. Someone like him, the Messiah, is worthy to be Living Torah (i.e. the voice of God in the earth). And our goal is to become like him (Eph 4:13). That's the meaning of Paul words:
 
"For in Messiah all the fullness of the Deity (Divine nature) live in bodly form, and you have been given fullness in Messiah, who is the head over every power and autorithy" (Col 2:9) "For he has put everything under his feet (Psalm 110:1). Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under the Messiah" (1Co 15:27)

 
do you think Peter understood that Yeshua was only a man?
 

I don't think my explanation above seem to show him as a mere man.

 
If a man has God's Spirit within him what is he? Is the man just a man or is the man much more?
 

A man of God.
 
Well, i know you don't mean this. But if a man has spirit of fornication within him. What is he? a fornicator, not the fornication itself. If a man has the spirit of Elijah within him, what is he? a great prophet; but not Elijah himself. I seriously doubt that someone becomes literally God just because the Holy Spirit is within him.

 
The true believer in every way becomes a form of God in the flesh.
 

Agreed.

 
The difference between a true believer and Yeshua is primarily the fact that Yeshua had the Spirit of YHVH without measure. A true believer has only those aspects and gifts given.

"for God gives not the Spirit by measure" (Jn 3:34). King James added: "unto him" which is not in the text, and was clearly added for a Christian theologic purpose. Anyway, Yeshua still cannot be God just by being full of holy spirit. As we read: The Temple was full of God's Glory and His Sechinah, at the point that the temple represents God's presence. But the temple wasn't literally God. That's what we know from Shlomoh's words:
"But will God in very truth dwell on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You; how much less this house that I have builded!" (1K 8:27).
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-
 

---

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:23:59 -0500

Baruch HaShem,

I am SO happy to find out the gospels could have possibly been written  
in Hebrew. It would also make sense if some of the epistles were also  
originally written in Hebrew, especially the Epistle to the Hebrews.  
We should also keep in mind that the Greek manuscripts found were just  
one of MANY (up to 50 of a kind) copies of manuscripts (translated or  
original) of the gospels and epistles circulated in the early Church.  
If they were written in Hebrew/Arameic, and If these manuscripts are  
preserved somewhere, then this would mean we could potentially use the  
same detailed analysis techniques applied to the Torah.

Andy, I couldn't agree with most of your statement more.

But let us also consider the following: I attended bible studies with  
some Christian girls this school year. At the Bible study we would  
exchange opinions on the verses for that day. I would be the one to  
always go into greater detail and accept the challenge of many  
paradoxes inside the gospel, or be best able to explain the  
midrashic/kabbalistic meaning behind the text. But then as soon as the  
Bible study was over the other girls would start talking about random  
secular things, such as movies they saw, places they went, people they  
met etc., and I was still left with the desire to continue discussing  
the Bible after the Bible study was over. To me the Word of G-D is not  
something I leave my daily routine to turn to, to me the Word of G-D  
is something my daily routine Revolves around. I cannot imagine my  
existence if it did not revolve around G-D and the scholarly study of  
knowing Him better and doing His will. It is not about making faith  
complex by studying the TaNaK and Gospels to a greater detail,  
analyzing it word by word; it is about quenching the burning desire to  
know G-D and Christ better, seeing with the heart the spiritual realm,  
transcending mortal nature, discovering practical techniques of  
becoming more holy... It is like a bride who loves her husband (who is  
a gem among all men) so much that she wants to know everything about  
him, she wants to spend time with him, she wants to find what is it  
that pleases him to the tiniest detail - and then goes about doing it  
- even though she knows His love for her is unconditional and is not  
based on those tiny details; she cannot stop thinking about him and  
wants to perfect herself according to his will and desires. This is  
what our relationship with G-D should be like. But G-D made it soooo  
simple in Christ. G-D loves us, both the Church and Israel, He loves  
us soooo much, that he made it simple enough for the Church to be  
unconditionally loved and saved, and yet he made it complex enough to  
quench Israel's desire to know G-D better and please Him to the  
tiniest detail. We all love G-D, but the expression of love is  
different across churches, synagogues, and different individuals  
within both. I have friends in my school that are right now on a  
mission trip in Azerbaijan, and this is their expression of love.  
Apostle Paul expressed his love both through mission trips as well as  
studying every facet of TaNaK. There are also those within both the  
Church and Israel that do only the study and then contribute to the  
scholarly knowledge of G-D and TaNaK. At the same time there are those  
organs in the Body of Christ who do worship and acts of  
loving-kindness. We cannot dismiss any of those parts. The issue at  
hand is not one of the Jewish community dismissing the Christian  
freedom of expression of love for G-D, rather the issue is the Jewish  
community being too often suppressed in Their expression of love for  
G-D, through various stereotypes such as the stigmas attached to the  
Talmud, Kabbala, Orthodox Jewish observances, and Judaism in general.  
To love G-D with all your heart is to place him at the foundations of  
your personal universe, to Build your own world on the Rock of Christ.  
The heart of a person is that space within your soul where you build  
your own personal universe in - everything you hope for, everything  
you desire, all of your endeavors, all of your goals, everything you  
are aware of, your whole personal version of the world, your life,  
your everything. Your eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth are openings to  
your soul and your heart. If you shine in darkness your heart will be  
dark. But if you let the Word of G-D and Christ come in then you will  
have Light in your heart and in your life. Judaism is often about  
keeping this space within the soul as uncontaminated and as pure as  
possible. Even though we have Christ, it is often hard to keep out the  
impure influences of TV, internet, cinema, unbelieving friends, the  
thorns of the world, and the damage sin (even unconscious sin) brings  
to our welfare during this physical life. Judaism is very much about  
building a fence to protect one from these adverse influences. It is  
also about quenching the soul's thirst for knowing G-D better and  
filling every tiny detail of mundane everydayness with Torah.  
Ordaining yearly holidays around times and seasons appointed in Torah  
makes one think about Torah in anticipation of these events and allows  
to live out Torah and to almost live through the Torah events. Nothing  
can replace the pristine sweetness of Shabbat which is a taste of  
holiness and the carefree life in the Garden of Eden. At the same time  
nothing can replace the pristine sweetness of deep-hearted  
Spirit-filled tearful prayer in Christ. It is not true that as  
observance steps in spirituality steps out. Sometimes Christ wants  
some individuals to turn to their Jewishness and tradition. A problem  
arises when a Christian leaves Christ to turn to Judaism - that is  
totally wrong and almost assuredly leads out of Heaven. To express our  
love for Christ we should do the best we can, with the understanding  
and abilities we have, in the place where we were when Christ called  
us to him. But to blame the Jews for being too complex about faith is  
absolutely wrong. How about me blaming you now that you are being too  
complex about playing sports? Or that you are being too complex about  
studying chemistry/physics? Or that you go into too great of a detail  
into studying ancient archeology? Or that you submit yourself to too  
strict diets? In fact, studying the Bible to a great detail is the  
best paid job in the world, and it is the job of the Jews. Just look  
at all the blessings G-D has poured on the Jewish people and Israel.  
Israel is the Torah nation, so let Israel exploit and present to the  
world(of anarchy) the Torah modeling of individual/family life,  
political/economic/legal systems arrangement,  
worship/prayer/meditation/reading technicalities, friendships/marriage  
details etc. This group is about studying the Bible to as great detail  
as other sciences are studied, and the Bible is the most important  
document in the whole word so I am unscrupulous about encouraging  
everyone in this group contribute in innovative ways to painstaking  
research throughout the Book that gives Life to every one of us.

I also encourage those with different gifts to export the simplicity  
of the Gospel and the Good News of the Salvation in Yeshua to the four  
corners of the world. This is how simple that Gospel is:

47 days after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea under the  
leadership of Moshe, Moshe went up on Mount Sinai. He stayed there for  
40 days, but the people didn't know for how long he was going to stay  
there. After only few days of waiting for Moshe to come down from the  
mountain, the people got scared they had perhaps lost their leader who  
was their only mediator and form of communication they had between  
them and G-D. In their fear that losing Moshe would mean losing their  
touch with HaShem which they had experienced so profoundly on their  
way out of Egypt, they decided to make for themselves another medium  
of communicating with G-D, namely the golden calf. They were not  
necessarily asking for a replacement of the One and True G-D, HaShem,  
which led them out of Egypt, they were merely asking a replacement for  
Moshe, who has been set before them as their leader/savior, but who  
was now gone: when the people saw that Moshe delayed coming down from  
the mountain, the people came to Aaron, and said to him: 'Up, make us  
a god [Elohim] who shall go before us [ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½  
ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½]; for as for this Moshe, the man that brought us up  
out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him' (Exodus  
32:1). That Moshe was set AS a god before them we can read in Exodus  
7:1, "And the LORD said unto Moshe: 'See, I have made thee a god  
[Elohim] to Pharaoh [ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½]; and Aaron  
thy brother shall be thy prophet." Even though their reasoning were  
logical and their intentions were good, worshiping the golden calf was  
a wrong form of worship. Even worshiping Moshe who was like an Elohim  
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah. However,  
worshiping Yeshua is permitted, and calling Him Elohim is also  
permitted - G-D The Father has finally given humanity a simple and  
proper way of worshiping HaShem, a physical medium to whom men of  
flesh can relate in their spiritual simplicity and ignorance, namely,  
Jesus Christ.

Shalom Rav,

Anna

Quoting Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>:

Xus is correct.

The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:

Exodus 4:10
 *ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½* ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½
ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½-ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½ן¿½:

*And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord...**"*

It is within the context of:

Ex 3:15God,

...

read more ן¿½

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[avi5207]

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 9:6-7  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  (7)  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Php 2:5-11  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  (6)  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  (7)  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  (8)  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  (9)  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:  (10)  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  (11)  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

It looks like a multitude of scripture disagrees with your opinions about the true nature of Yeshua.

Shalom,


Avi

[avi5207]

My take on the whole issue is this: I see one aspect of Yeshua's person as being a manifested form of YHVH that man can relate to. A form of God that will not kill those that see it but on the contrary save those that believe.

Shalom,

Avi

Baruch HaShem,

I am SO happy to find out the gospels could have possibly been written  
in Hebrew. It would also make sense if some of the epistles were also  
originally written in Hebrew, especially the Epistle to the Hebrews.  
We should also keep in mind that the Greek manuscripts found were just  
one of MANY (up to 50 of a kind) copies of manuscripts (translated or  
original) of the gospels and epistles circulated in the early Church.  
If they were written in Hebrew/Arameic, and If these manuscripts are  
preserved somewhere, then this would mean we could potentially use the  
same detailed analysis techniques applied to the Torah.

Andy, I couldn't agree with most of your statement more.

But let us also consider the following: I attended bible studies with  
some Christian girls this school year. At the Bible study we would  
exchange opinions on the verses for that day. I would be the one to  
always go into greater detail and accept the challenge of many  
paradoxes inside the gospel, or be best able to explain the  
midrashic/kabbalistic meaning behind the text. But then as soon as the  
Bible study was over the other girls would start talking about random  
secular things, such as movies they saw, places they went, people they  
met etc., and I was still left with the desire to continue discussing  
the Bible after the Bible study was over. To me the Word of G-D is not  
something I leave my daily routine to turn to, to me the Word of G-D  
is something my daily routine Revolves around. I cannot imagine my  
existence if it did not revolve around G-D and the scholarly study of  
knowing Him better and doing His will. It is not about making faith  
complex by studying the TaNaK and Gospels to a greater detail,  
analyzing it word by word; it is about quenching the burning desire to  
know G-D and Christ better, seeing with the heart the spiritual realm,  
transcending mortal nature, discovering practical techniques of  
becoming more holy... It is like a bride who loves her husband (who is  
a gem among all men) so much that she wants to know everything about  
him, she wants to spend time with him, she wants to find what is it  
that pleases him to the tiniest detail - and then goes about doing it  
- even though she knows His love for her is unconditional and is not  
based on those tiny details; she cannot stop thinking about him and  
wants to perfect herself according to his will and desires. This is  
what our relationship with G-D should be like. But G-D made it soooo  
simple in Christ. G-D loves us, both the Church and Israel, He loves  
us soooo much, that he made it simple enough for the Church to be  
unconditionally loved and saved, and yet he made it complex enough to  
quench Israel's desire to know G-D better and please Him to the  
tiniest detail. We all love G-D, but the expression of love is  
different across churches, synagogues, and different individuals  
within both. I have friends in my school that are right now on a  
mission trip in Azerbaijan, and this is their expression of love.  
Apostle Paul expressed his love both through mission trips as well as  
studying every facet of TaNaK. There are also those within both the  
Church and Israel that do only the study and then contribute to the  
scholarly knowledge of G-D and TaNaK. At the same time there are those  
organs in the Body of Christ who do worship and acts of  
loving-kindness. We cannot dismiss any of those parts. The issue at  
hand is not one of the Jewish community dismissing the Christian  
freedom of expression of love for G-D, rather the issue is the Jewish  
community being too often suppressed in Their expression of love for  
G-D, through various stereotypes such as the stigmas attached to the  
Talmud, Kabbala, Orthodox Jewish observances, and Judaism in general.  
To love G-D with all your heart is to place him at the foundations of  
your personal universe, to Build your own world on the Rock of Christ.  
The heart of a person is that space within your soul where you build  
your own personal universe in - everything you hope for, everything  
you desire, all of your endeavors, all of your goals, everything you  
are aware of, your whole personal version of the world, your life,  
your everything. Your eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth are openings to  
your soul and your heart. If you shine in darkness your heart will be  
dark. But if you let the Word of G-D and Christ come in then you will  
have Light in your heart and in your life. Judaism is often about  
keeping this space within the soul as uncontaminated and as pure as  
possible. Even though we have Christ, it is often hard to keep out the  
impure influences of TV, internet, cinema, unbelieving friends, the  
thorns of the world, and the damage sin (even unconscious sin) brings  
to our welfare during this physical life. Judaism is very much about  
building a fence to protect one from these adverse influences. It is  
also about quenching the soul's thirst for knowing G-D better and  
filling every tiny detail of mundane everydayness with Torah.  
Ordaining yearly holidays around times and seasons appointed in Torah  
makes one think about Torah in anticipation of these events and allows  
to live out Torah and to almost live through the Torah events. Nothing  
can replace the pristine sweetness of Shabbat which is a taste of  
holiness and the carefree life in the Garden of Eden. At the same time  
nothing can replace the pristine sweetness of deep-hearted  
Spirit-filled tearful prayer in Christ. It is not true that as  
observance steps in spirituality steps out. Sometimes Christ wants  
some individuals to turn to their Jewishness and tradition. A problem  
arises when a Christian leaves Christ to turn to Judaism - that is  
totally wrong and almost assuredly leads out of Heaven. To express our  
love for Christ we should do the best we can, with the understanding  
and abilities we have, in the place where we were when Christ called  
us to him. But to blame the Jews for being too complex about faith is  
absolutely wrong. How about me blaming you now that you are being too  
complex about playing sports? Or that you are being too complex about  
studying chemistry/physics? Or that you go into too great of a detail  
into studying ancient archeology? Or that you submit yourself to too  
strict diets? In fact, studying the Bible to a great detail is the  
best paid job in the world, and it is the job of the Jews. Just look  
at all the blessings G-D has poured on the Jewish people and Israel.  
Israel is the Torah nation, so let Israel exploit and present to the  
world(of anarchy) the Torah modeling of individual/family life,  
political/economic/legal systems arrangement,  
worship/prayer/meditation/reading technicalities, friendships/marriage  
details etc. This group is about studying the Bible to as great detail  
as other sciences are studied, and the Bible is the most important  
document in the whole word so I am unscrupulous about encouraging  
everyone in this group contribute in innovative ways to painstaking  
research throughout the Book that gives Life to every one of us.

I also encourage those with different gifts to export the simplicity  
of the Gospel and the Good News of the Salvation in Yeshua to the four  
corners of the world. This is how simple that Gospel is:

47 days after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea under the  
leadership of Moshe, Moshe went up on Mount Sinai. He stayed there for  
40 days, but the people didn't know for how long he was going to stay  
there. After only few days of waiting for Moshe to come down from the  
mountain, the people got scared they had perhaps lost their leader who  
was their only mediator and form of communication they had between  
them and G-D. In their fear that losing Moshe would mean losing their  
touch with HaShem which they had experienced so profoundly on their  
way out of Egypt, they decided to make for themselves another medium  
of communicating with G-D, namely the golden calf. They were not  
necessarily asking for a replacement of the One and True G-D, HaShem,  
which led them out of Egypt, they were merely asking a replacement for  
Moshe, who has been set before them as their leader/savior, but who  
was now gone: when the people saw that Moshe delayed coming down from  
the mountain, the people came to Aaron, and said to him: 'Up, make us  
a god [Elohim] who shall go before us [ עֲשֵׂה-לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר  
יֵלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ]; for as for this Moshe, the man that brought us up  
out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him' (Exodus  
32:1). That Moshe was set AS a god before them we can read in Exodus  
7:1, "And the LORD said unto Moshe: 'See, I have made thee a god  
[Elohim] to Pharaoh [רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה]; and Aaron  
thy brother shall be thy prophet." Even though their reasoning were  
logical and their intentions were good, worshiping the golden calf was  
a wrong form of worship. Even worshiping Moshe who was like an Elohim  
to them was wrong, since he wasn't the true Messiah. However,  
worshiping Yeshua is permitted, and calling Him Elohim is also  
permitted - G-D The Father has finally given humanity a simple and  
proper way of worshiping HaShem, a physical medium to whom men of  
flesh can relate in their spiritual simplicity and ignorance, namely,  
Jesus Christ.

Shalom Rav,

Anna

Quoting Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>:

Xus is correct.

The Torah is clear on the precedent given to us:

Exodus 4:10
 *ויאמר משה אל-יהוה בי אדני* לא איש דברים אנכי גם מתמול גם משלשם גם מאז דברך
אל-עבדך כי כבד-פה וכבד לשון אנכי:

*And said Moshe to HaSHem, "Oh my Lord...**"*

It is within the context of:

Ex 3:15God,

...

read more »

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[XuS Casal]

Who is Imanuel? I wonder if any christian has ever read the sentence in its whole context.
Today we are gonna study it.
 
(Is 7:10)  And HaShem spoke again to Ahaz, saying:
(Is 7:11)  'Ask for you a sign of HaShem your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the highest heights.'
(Is 7:12)  But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, and I won't put HaShem to the test.'
(Is 7:13)  And he [Isaiah] said: 'Hear now, house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that you will weary my God also?
(Is 7:14) Therefore Adonai Himself will give you a sign: behold, the maiden [haAlmah] is pregnant, and will give birth to a son, and she will call his name Immanuel [the Mighty with us].
(Is 7:15) He will eat curd and honey, when he knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
(Is 7:16) But before the child knows enough to reject the evil, and choose the good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
 
Basic questions: who speaks the prophecy? Isaiah. To whom? To Ahaz. What is the prophecy about? The future wife of Ahaz will have a son, and before the son grow enough, his two enemies will be defeated: Samaria and Damascus.
 
Detailed Questions: When Ahaz son was born, what was his name? Hezekiah (2kings 16:20). Was Hezekiah a human god? Nope. Does God need to learn to reject evil? Nope. Why then the prophet named him prophetically "the Mighty is with us"? Because God was with him, in all of his work as king of Israel, because God was with Israel, as we read:
 
 "[Hezekiah] trusted in HaShem, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him. For he cleaved to HaShem, and did not ceased  to following Him, but kept His commandments, which HaShem commanded Moshe. And HaShem was with him: whithersoever he went forth he prospered; and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and did not serve him". (2Kings 18:5-7)
 
Contextual questions: Do we have any other similar prophecy? Yes. In Is 8 we read:
 
"And I went to the prophetess; and she conceived, and gave birth to a son. Then HaShem said to me: 'Call his name Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz [quick to the plunder, swift to the spoil]. For before the child knows how to say: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.' And HaShem spoke to me again, saying: Because this people has rejected the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoices over Rezin and Remaliah's son; Now therefore, behold, HaShem is about to bring against them the waters of the River, mighty and many; the king of Assyria and all his pomp; It will overflow all its channels, and run over all its banks; And sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck; and its outspread wings will cover the breadth of your land, O Immanuel" (Is 8:3-8).
 
More contextual questions: How many similarities do we find with Is 7?  A woman is pregnant and gives birth a son. the son recieves a prophetic name. before the son grows, Samaria and Damascus will be defeated. And the name Imanuel is used again. This time, who recieves the name: Imanuel? Judah. So is Judah a human god? Nope. What God is trying to say is:
 
'Judah, be calm, because God is with you. Samaria and Damascus won't destroy you. That kid will eat curd and honey (the meal of Canaan)'.
 
Midrashic Question: Why then Matityahu (Matthew) understood that the prophecy in Isaíah 7 fulfills the Messianic expectation?
Matthew uses the PARDES to interpret Isaiah. Messiah's birth match ALMOST all similitudes. A maiden is pregnant and gives birth a son. The son recieves a prophetic name: Yeshua (for he shall save his people from their sins). And the name Imanuel is used again.  But his enemies are not defeated before the kid grow up, but when he was elevated due to his innocent death. Matthew uses REMEZ to link all the births mentioned by Isaiah.
Being the last of them a mention of the Messianic kingdom, when every war against Israel may cease, because HaShem will reign through the Messiah:
 
"Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government will be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called: Wonderful Counsellor, El Gibor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne, and over his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from that time on and forever. The zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this". (Is 9:5-6)
 
 Contextual Question of the Midrash: Are literal the prophetical names of Isaiah? Nop. The Prophetic names of Isaiah show an atribute of God. But they are not to be taken literally, like Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz, like Hezekiah, that wasn't God, but he was part of the "us" in God with us. The same way Judah, that is called Imanuel is not God, but part of the "us" in God with us. So thins long name for the Messiah in Is 9:6 is not the literal name of Messiah but the atributes of God shown in Messiah. Or did anyone call Yeshua: Everlasting Father?? NEVER. From the Remez of Matthew,  it is understood that Messiah represents God, and that God will save His people from the root of Jesse (Is 11:1); i.e. the Messiah. As we read: the Zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this.
So the reason that Matthew used Isaiah 7:14 to allude Messiah, instead of any other verse, is because of the connection between Imanuel and the Almah, which is another topic.
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-   
 

[avi5207]

Good midrash. So how does your explanation differ from mine? I say Yeshua was a form of God manifested in human form just as the scriptures I listed in my previous post say. I say He was a form of God that could exist in this physical world without destroying it. So if He was literally God with us as the TaNaK states and NT confirms why is there still confusion? I don't propose that there are three separate gods in the 'godhead' as the church does. I say that YHVH has many forms and appears in them as needed from time to time to accomplish His will. The concept of 'oneness' or 'echad' from a Torah perspective is a difficult one to understand since we are all one in a carnal sense being literally from the same two people who were first just one called 'Adam'. We all have souls that came from the original soul. We all have minds and even though we are surrounded by multitudes of other souls we still exist as lone individual personalities. Viewing 'oneness' from our perspective is not going to be the same as from YHVH's. So just exactly how YHVH has accomplished His perfect will through His only begotten Son Yeshua is not so easy to understand unless you understand that if we all had the exact same opinions on everything yet were individuals we would still be one. If you seen me you would see Xus, or Shaul, or Simon Peter etc.,. We don't but we are supposed to all be filled with the mind that was in Messiah Yeshua. �

• Php 2:1-15� If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,� (2)� Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.� (3)� Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.� (4)� Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.� (5)� Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:� (6)� Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:� (7)� But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:� (8)� And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.� (9)� Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:� (10)� That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;� (11)� And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.� (12)� Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.� (13)� For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.� (14)� Do all things without murmurings and disputings:� (15)� That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

I think Paul says expresses this concept (of oneness) very well in in his letter to the Philippians don't you?

Shalom,


Avi

On 6/2/2011 6:43 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

Who is Imanuel? I wonder if any christian has ever read the sentence in its whole context.
Today we are gonna study it.

�
(Is 7:10)� And�HaShem spoke again to Ahaz, saying:
(Is 7:11)� 'Ask�for you�a sign of�HaShem�your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the highest heights.'
(Is 7:12)��But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, and I won't put HaShem to the test.'
(Is 7:13)� And he [Isaiah]�said: 'Hear now, house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that�you will weary my God also?
(Is 7:14) Therefore�Adonai Himself�will give you a sign: behold, the�maiden [haAlmah]�is pregnant, and�will give birth to�a son, and she will�call his name Immanuel [the�Mighty with us].

(Is 7:15) He will eat curd and honey, when he knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

(Is 7:16) But before the child knows enough�to reject the evil, and choose the good, the land�of the�two kings you dread will be laid waste.
�
Basic questions: who speaks the prophecy? Isaiah. To whom? To Ahaz. What is the prophecy about?�The future wife of Ahaz�will have a son, and before the son grow enough, his two enemies will�be defeated: Samaria and Damascus.
�
Detailed Questions: When Ahaz son was born, what was his name? Hezekiah (2kings 16:20). Was Hezekiah a human god? Nope. Does God need to learn to reject evil? Nope. Why then the prophet named him prophetically "the Mighty is with us"? Because God was with him, in all of his work as king of Israel, because God was with Israel,�as we read:
�
�"[Hezekiah] trusted in HaShem, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him. For he cleaved to HaShem, and did not ceased� to following Him, but kept His commandments, which�HaShem commanded Moshe. And�HaShem was with him: whithersoever he went forth he prospered; and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and did not serve him". (2Kings 18:5-7)
�

Contextual questions: Do we have any other similar prophecy? Yes. In Is 8 we read:

�
"And I went to the prophetess; and she conceived, and�gave birth to�a son. Then�HaShem said�to me: 'Call his name Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz [quick to the plunder, swift to the spoil]. For before the child knows how to say: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the�plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.' And�HaShem spoke to me again, saying: Because this people has rejected�the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoices�over Rezin and Remaliah's son; Now therefore, behold,�HaShem is about to bring�against them the waters of the River, mighty and many; the king of Assyria and all his pomp; It will overflow all its channels, and�run over all�its banks; And sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck; and its outspread wings will�cover the breadth of your land, O Immanuel" (Is 8:3-8).
�
More contextual questions: How many similarities do we find with Is 7?��A woman is pregnant and gives birth a son. the son recieves a prophetic name. before the son grows, Samaria and Damascus�will be�defeated. And the name Imanuel is used again. This time, who recieves the name: Imanuel? Judah. So is Judah a human god? Nope. What God is trying to say is:
�

'Judah, be calm, because God is with you. Samaria and Damascus won't destroy you. That kid will eat curd and honey (the meal of Canaan)'.

�
Midrashic Question: Why then Matityahu (Matthew) understood that the prophecy in Isa�ah 7 fulfills the Messianic expectation?
Matthew uses the PARDES to interpret Isaiah. Messiah's birth match�ALMOST all�similitudes. A maiden is pregnant and gives birth a son. The son recieves a prophetic name: Yeshua (for he shall save his people from their sins).�And the name Imanuel is used again. �But his enemies are not defeated before the kid grow up, but when he was elevated due to his innocent death. Matthew uses REMEZ to link all the births mentioned by Isaiah.
Being the last of them a mention of the Messianic kingdom, when every�war against Israel�may cease, because HaShem will reign through the Messiah:
�
"Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government will be�on his shoulder: and his name shall be called: Wonderful Counsellor, El Gibor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne, and�over his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from that time on and forever. The zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this". (Is 9:5-6)
�
�Contextual Question of the Midrash: Are literal the prophetical names of Isaiah?�Nop. The Prophetic names of Isaiah show an atribute of God. But they are not to be taken literally, like�Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz,�like Hezekiah, that wasn't God, but he was part of the "us" in God with us. The same way�Judah, that is called Imanuel is not God,�but part of the "us" in God with us.�So thins long name for the Messiah in Is 9:6 is not the literal name of Messiah but the atributes of God shown in Messiah. Or did anyone call Yeshua: Everlasting Father?? NEVER. From the Remez of Matthew,� it is understood that Messiah represents God, and that God will save His people from the root of Jesse (Is 11:1); i.e. the Messiah. As we read: the Zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this.
So�the reason that Matthew used Isaiah�7:14 to allude Messiah, instead of any other verse, is because of the connection between Imanuel and the Almah, which is another topic.
�
Shalom
�
-XuS-���
�
�
�
�
�

�

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[ar...@rice.edu]

Baruch Hashem,

> I've yet to see a place in scripture where man was instructed to
> worship the Messiah

Well, the Magi from the east worshiped the Messiah. Samuel and Anna
the prophetess didn't worship Him. There were people who did worship
the Messiah and those who didn't worship him. Neither were rebuked.
However every sin and every transgression of any of the ten
commandments of HaShem is equivalent to transgressing the first
commandments - I AM The LORD your G-D, you shall have no gods beside
me - for every breaking of the law is like bowing down to other gods.
What I am saying is that the Only permitted bowing down an Elohim is
that to His Only Begotten Son, Yeshua the Messiah.

> Like saying 'Ok, fit yourself inside
> this match-box, so that i may close it up, then i can have faith.

You are right, I get your point, but for most sinners outthere this is
the only way to having faith. To me though allowing such simplicity to
be enforced upon myself is unthinkable and as annoying as it can get.
I LOVE complexity. I once saw a girl (whose parents were atheist
gentiles) no older than six reading a 700-paged Harry Potter book.
People living in great darkness are able to accept the complexity of
anything But the TaNaK and the Gospel of Messiah. When it comes to
this they are barely able to open up cracks in their hearts for the
One True LIGHT to come in. The klippot קליפות (sinful
skins/peels/shells) man was clothed with after losing his blissed
primordial sinless nature: "And the man called his wife's name Havva;
because she was the mother of all the living (Hay). For the man also
and for his wife did the LORD G-D make coats of skins, and clothed
them. Bereshit 3:20-21 Note how these klippot added lust to man's
nature, for only after they sinned was the woman (isha) called Havva
(the mother of all living), and only after man was clothed in klippot
did he Know Havva, and she conceived and gave birth to Qayin. These
klippot in which all humanity is clothed give no permission for the
TRUTH & LIGHT of HaShem to enter their hearts. People would read Any
literature Except for the WORD of G-D. Therefore simplicity for the
sinner makes the path to heaven easy. It was meant to be easy from the
beginning. The plan for salvation was crafted the moment Adam and Isha
sinned. It wasn't through the Law but rather through the Messhia, and
the Law was is a means to an end, a helper in defining and outlining
to man his own sinful nature.

> doesn't sound loving.

To a sinner on the way to hell this is the most loving free gift ever.
To the righteous ones - making things simple is not loving, that is
correct. But do not forget that Israel was set apart from the rest of
humanity - being called Elonim
אֲנִי-אָמַרְתִּי, אֱלֹהִים אַתֶּם; וּבְנֵי עֶלְיוֹן כֻּלְּכֶם, Ani
amarti elohim atem, ve v'bnei Elyon kulhem.
Reading in Bereishit 6:1-4, And it came to pass, when men began to
multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair
וַיִּרְאוּ בְנֵי-הָאֱלֹהִים אֶת-בְּנוֹת הָאָדָם, כִּי טֹבֹת הֵנָּה ;
and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose. And the LORD said:
'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh;
therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.' The Nephilim
were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them;
the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
הַנְּפִלִים הָיוּ בָאָרֶץ, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם, וְגַם אַחֲרֵי-כֵן אֲשֶׁר
יָבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים אֶל-בְּנוֹת הָאָדָם, וְיָלְדוּ לָהֶם:
הֵמָּה הַגִּבֹּרִים אֲשֶׁר מֵעוֹלָם, אַנְשֵׁי הַשֵּׁם.
Who were these Sons of Elohim? And we know that Yeshua is HaShem's
Only Begotten Son. But we are also called Sons of Elohim. Perhaps we
are called so in the sense that we are part of Elohim.

> It is the experiences of the relationship
> that makes the best difference.

Exactly! Loving G-d with all our mind and loving the neighbor as
ourselves. We only experience HaShem through His properties and His
Back, whereas His Face and His innermost nature is hidden from us and
revealed through Christ: Exodus 34:5-7, "And the LORD descended in the
cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD,
mighty, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in lone
and truth, keeping troth to thousands, forgiving iniquity, and
transgression, and sin..." In the same manner we experience HaShem and
know who He is through the properties He show us, men experience
eachother and can know the other only through the properties we
display and receive. If HaShem has displayed to us His property of
Love and Mercy in the Messiah, in order to be godly/HaShem-like, we
are obliged to display the properties of love and mercy as well. For
is is only love that can bind together a humanity and Adam Kadmon once
torn apart by sin and clothed in klippot.

Shalom,
Anna

Quoting pathfinder <masoned...@gmail.com>:

[ar...@rice.edu]

> Did YHVH send these men with their gifts? How did they know to
> follow the star? How did they know anything at all unless they were
> God fearing wise men that knew the scriptures, knew the prophecies?
> It seems likely these were Babylonian Jews whose ancestors remained
> in Babylon.

great question Avi.

I do not know if I should send this link to the group, but this is my
all-time favorite pastor of a sort after my Dad, so here we go
http://www.jmtour.com/media/James_Tour_Mat2-1-15_2011_05_22.mp3 this
is the best explanation of the Nativity event I've ever heard, and
everyone should hear it. It also gives a very good and detailed
explanation of who the Magi were. I don't want to write out the whole
sermon here cause it would take me too long.

-Anna

Quoting avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com>:

> Have you read these verses?
>

> * Mat 2:1-11 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the

> days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east
> to Jerusalem, (2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the
> Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to

> _worship him_. (3) When Herod the king had heard these things,

> he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. (4) And when he had
> gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together,
> he demanded of them where Christ should be born. (5) And they
> said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by
> the prophet, (6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art
> not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall
> come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. (7) Then
> Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them
> diligently what time the star appeared. (8) And he sent them to
> Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child;
> and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come

> and _worship him_ also. (9) When they had heard the king, they

> departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went
> before them, till it came and stood over where the young child
> was. (10) When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding
> great joy. (11) And when they were come into the house, they saw

> the young child with Mary his mother, and _fell down, and

> worshiped him_: and when they had opened their treasures, they

[XuS Casal]

So how does your explanation differ from mine?
 

Not deffers too much, actually, just in the detail that you said he's literally God. In a Jewish understanding Yeshua is not literally God. Cannot be. Because God is everywhere, but NOTHING created is God, not even the Messiah. That deals with the reasons I gave you in the previous mails, and also because of some details that contradict that Yeshua would be literally God. Otherwise he raised prayers to himself. He claimed to himself when he was at the cross. he was saved from death by himself. He needed to learn to reject evil (which is completly blasphemous, if we think we are talking about the One God). He said that the Father knows things that he doesn't know, And when he call to the Father: 'My God', he then would mean... Himself??? And because he said thousand times that God (his God and our God) sent him, not that he sent himself. These are some basic details.

 
So if He was literally God with us as the TaNaK states
 

I didn't say this in the Midrash of Imanuel, i said exactly the opposite. God is with Us through him; he's not literally God.

 
We all have souls that came from the original soul.
 

Yeah, Agreed. That's the Kabbalistic concept of Adam Kadmon. Being that Messiah is the restoration of Adam's soul.

 
We all have minds and even though we are surrounded by multitudes of other souls we still exist as lone individual personalities.
 

Yeah, Agreed. Even in that concept we all are saved or lost according to our own behaviors. I am not you, though we all are Adam (human beings).

 Viewing 'oneness' from our perspective is not going to be the same as from YHVH's. So just exactly how YHVH has accomplished His perfect will through His only begotten Son Yeshua is not so easy to understand unless you understand that if we all had the exact same opinions on everything yet were individuals we would still be one. If you seen me you would see Xus, or Shaul, or Simon Peter etc.,. We don't but we are supposed to all be filled with the mind that was in Messiah Yeshua. 
 

Exactly. I understand and Agree. Yeshua had God's mind; he was adhered to Him; which in Kabalah is named: Devekut (adhesion with God), which is something God expects from all of us (Dt 10:20; "to Him you shall adhere"). That's why Paul and Kabbalah said that in Messiah dwells the fulness of the Divine Nature. And we are to have Messiah's nature by obeying Torah.

 
I think Paul says expresses this concept (of oneness) very well in in his letter to the Philippians don't you?
 

Surely. I like the verse in Philipians chapter 2 you gave. Very beautiful how Paul explains (since verse 1:27) the needed oneness in believers' mind. BUT this chapter is not an evidence of Yeshua's Divinity. It's exactly the opposite. 
 
verse 1:     If you have any encouragement from being united with Messiah (a Kabbalah concept, very well known).
verse 2:     then.. ..being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
verse 3-4: Do nothing out of selfish ambition.. (another Kabbalah concept known as: Lishma [for her; for the Torah] and not Lo-Lishma [a selfish ambition])
                ..consider others better than yourselves (Lv 19:18).
verse 5:     your attitude (mind) should be the same as that of Messiah (the actitude of humbleness and serve others that the context is talking about).
verse 6:     who being under the form of Elohim (form, image; abstract similitude in essence, as Adam Rishon was in the beginning [Gn 1:27]. Also "degree of Elohim", as Moses was to Pharaoh [Ex 7:1])
                  did not plunder to be equal with God (as Hava, when she took from the Tree of knowledge [Gn 3:5 "you shall be as elohim"]).
verse 7:     but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant (We can notice that the Greek word: "morphe" is never used in Scripture with the meaning of "nature". Servant is not a NATURE, is a status, and is contrasted with "form" [morphe] of GOD. So, "the form of God" doesn't show us that Yeshua is literally God, but that he had the status of Elohim. "Elohim" means literally "Great Judge", as Moses was to Pharaoh (even he had his brother being his own prophet), but was humble enough to serve Israel, though he was in the form (status) of Elohim [Ex 7:1] ). 
                  and became in the likeness of men (Jn 13:14; likeness because he didn't sin [Ro 8:3], but suffered like any man)
verse 8:     and being found in condition as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even death on a wood (Mt 20:28 explains this concept. the Son of Man; i.e. the Messiah [the King of Israel, the agent of God] didn't come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life for many. We notice that all of this humbleness of Yeshua happened during his death; not when he was born. As we read in Isaiah 52:12 "so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the human beings". Everything Yeshua did, was an example for us. To be God and become human is not something that we can copy).
verse 9-10:Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place (Yeshua didn't exalted himself. God exalted him. If Yeshua is God there's a contradiction in this sentence. If Paul was trying to say that Yeshua is literally God, then he wrote a contradiction in this verse. Paul is actually quoting the Psalm 45 "you have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness, therefore, God, YOUR GOD has anointed you.. ..above your fellows".  Yeah, Yeshua has a God. There's not two Gods, so Yeshua cannot be God. Yeah, Yeshua has fellows, so if Yeshua is God, his fellows are God too. His fellows are humen, as we read: "For there is one only God, and one mediator between God and men, Yeshua the Messiah, who is a man" (1Ti 2:4). And then we get back to my first mail. -God exalted him to the highest place-, that's a quote of Psalm 110 "sit at my right hand". For he has put everything under his feet. 'Now when it says "everything" it is clear that this does not include God Himself, who put everything under the Messiah' (1Co 15:27).)
                 and gave him the name that that is above every name...
verse 11: ..to the glory of God the Father (again, the exaltation, kingship and honor of Yeshua is to honor only HaShem, God his Father, not to the glory of Yeshua. If Yeshua is God, that's a contradiction again. But that's not so if Yeshua represents God, as we read in Torah: "I will put my Words in his mouth" (Dt 18:18). Again, if Yeshua is God, is a contradiction that God put His Words in his mouth, and he speaks in God's name. But that's not so If Yeshua represents God. If Yeshua was God, is a contradiction that was under the ¿Nature? of God, and stopped being God for to be in ¿human? form, because God is not human [Nm 23:19] and God does not change [Mal 3:6]).  
 
One marginal note about verse 6. The Greek word used: 'Huparcho' doesn't mean to "exist" as if: "He existed in God's form". Nop. The word Huparcho means: "being" [literally: being under], which is a temporal and limited status of being. We read that "Stephen was [huparcho] full of holy spirit" (Acts 7:55) which was a temporal status. We read that Kepha was [huparcho] Jew (Gal 2:14) which is a limited status while he was on this planet. and we can see more examples about this word, but i think with these two examples the word is made clear.
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-
 
 

---

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 09:14:01 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

Good midrash. So how does your explanation differ from mine? I say Yeshua was a form of God manifested in human form just as the scriptures I listed in my previous post say. I say He was a form of God that could exist in this physical world without destroying it. So if He was literally God with us as the TaNaK states and NT confirms why is there still confusion? I don't propose that there are three separate gods in the 'godhead' as the church does. I say that YHVH has many forms and appears in them as needed from time to time to accomplish His will. The concept of 'oneness' or 'echad' from a Torah perspective is a difficult one to understand since we are all one in a carnal sense being literally from the same two people who were first just one called 'Adam'. We all have souls that came from the original soul. We all have minds and even though we are surrounded by multitudes of other souls we still exist as lone individual personalities. Viewing 'oneness' from our perspective is not going to be the same as from YHVH's. So just exactly how YHVH has accomplished His perfect will through His only begotten Son Yeshua is not so easy to understand unless you understand that if we all had the exact same opinions on everything yet were individuals we would still be one. If you seen me you would see Xus, or Shaul, or Simon Peter etc.,. We don't but we are supposed to all be filled with the mind that was in Messiah Yeshua.  

• Php 2:1-15  If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,  (2)  Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.  (3)  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.  (4)  Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.  (5)  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  (6)  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  (7)  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  (8)  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  (9)  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:  (10)  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  (11)  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  (12)  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  (13)  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.  (14)  Do all things without murmurings and disputings:  (15)  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

I think Paul says expresses this concept (of oneness) very well in in his letter to the Philippians don't you?

Shalom,


Avi


On 6/2/2011 6:43 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

Who is Imanuel? I wonder if any christian has ever read the sentence in its whole context.
Today we are gonna study it.
 

(Is 7:10)  And HaShem spoke again to Ahaz, saying:
(Is 7:11)  'Ask for you a sign of HaShem your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the highest heights.'
(Is 7:12)  But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, and I won't put HaShem to the test.'
(Is 7:13)  And he [Isaiah] said: 'Hear now, house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that you will weary my God also?

(Is 7:14) Therefore Adonai Himself will give you a sign: behold, the maiden [haAlmah] is pregnant, and will give birth to a son, and she will call his name Immanuel [the Mighty with us].

(Is 7:15) He will eat curd and honey, when he knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

(Is 7:16) But before the child knows enough to reject the evil, and choose the good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
 
Basic questions: who speaks the prophecy? Isaiah. To whom? To Ahaz. What is the prophecy about? The future wife of Ahaz will have a son, and before the son grow enough, his two enemies will be defeated: Samaria and Damascus.
 
Detailed Questions: When Ahaz son was born, what was his name? Hezekiah (2kings 16:20). Was Hezekiah a human god? Nope. Does God need to learn to reject evil? Nope. Why then the prophet named him prophetically "the Mighty is with us"? Because God was with him, in all of his work as king of Israel, because God was with Israel, as we read:
 

 "[Hezekiah] trusted in HaShem, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him. For he cleaved to HaShem, and did not ceased  to following Him, but kept His commandments, which HaShem commanded Moshe. And HaShem was with him: whithersoever he went forth he prospered; and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and did not serve him". (2Kings 18:5-7)

 
Contextual questions: Do we have any other similar prophecy? Yes. In Is 8 we read:
 

"And I went to the prophetess; and she conceived, and gave birth to a son. Then HaShem said to me: 'Call his name Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz [quick to the plunder, swift to the spoil]. For before the child knows how to say: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.' And HaShem spoke to me again, saying: Because this people has rejected the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoices over Rezin and Remaliah's son; Now therefore, behold, HaShem is about to bring against them the waters of the River, mighty and many; the king of Assyria and all his pomp; It will overflow all its channels, and run over all its banks; And sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck; and its outspread wings will cover the breadth of your land, O Immanuel" (Is 8:3-8).
 
More contextual questions: How many similarities do we find with Is 7?  A woman is pregnant and gives birth a son. the son recieves a prophetic name. before the son grows, Samaria and Damascus will be defeated. And the name Imanuel is used again. This time, who recieves the name: Imanuel? Judah. So is Judah a human god? Nope. What God is trying to say is:

 
'Judah, be calm, because God is with you. Samaria and Damascus won't destroy you. That kid will eat curd and honey (the meal of Canaan)'.

 
Midrashic Question: Why then Matityahu (Matthew) understood that the prophecy in Isaíah 7 fulfills the Messianic expectation?
Matthew uses the PARDES to interpret Isaiah. Messiah's birth match ALMOST all similitudes. A maiden is pregnant and gives birth a son. The son recieves a prophetic name: Yeshua (for he shall save his people from their sins). And the name Imanuel is used again.  But his enemies are not defeated before the kid grow up, but when he was elevated due to his innocent death. Matthew uses REMEZ to link all the births mentioned by Isaiah.
Being the last of them a mention of the Messianic kingdom, when every war against Israel may cease, because HaShem will reign through the Messiah:
 
"Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government will be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called: Wonderful Counsellor, El Gibor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne, and over his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from that time on and forever. The zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this". (Is 9:5-6)
 
 Contextual Question of the Midrash: Are literal the prophetical names of Isaiah? Nop. The Prophetic names of Isaiah show an atribute of God. But they are not to be taken literally, like Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz, like Hezekiah, that wasn't God, but he was part of the "us" in God with us. The same way Judah, that is called Imanuel is not God, but part of the "us" in God with us. So thins long name for the Messiah in Is 9:6 is not the literal name of Messiah but the atributes of God shown in Messiah. Or did anyone call Yeshua: Everlasting Father?? NEVER. From the Remez of Matthew,  it is understood that Messiah represents God, and that God will save His people from the root of Jesse (Is 11:1); i.e. the Messiah. As we read: the Zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this.
So the reason that Matthew used Isaiah 7:14 to allude Messiah, instead of any other verse, is because of the connection between Imanuel and the Almah, which is another topic.
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-   
 

 
 
 
 

 


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[XuS Casal]

So how does your explanation differ from mine?
 
Not deffers too much, actually, just in the detail that you said he's literally God. In a Jewish understanding Yeshua is not literally God. Cannot be. Because God is everywhere, but NOTHING created is God, not even the Messiah. That deals with the reasons I gave you in the previous mails, and also because of some details that contradict that Yeshua would be literally God. Otherwise he raised prayers to himself. He claimed to himself when he was at the cross. he was saved from death by himself. He needed to learn to reject evil (which is completly blasphemous, if we think we are talking about the One God). He said that the Father knows things that he doesn't know, And when he call to the Father: 'My God', he then would mean... Himself??? And because he said thousand times that God (his God and our God) sent him, not that he sent himself. These are some basic details.
 
So if He was literally God with us as the TaNaK states
 
I didn't say this in the Midrash of Imanuel, i said exactly the opposite. God is with Us through him; he's not literally God.
 
We all have souls that came from the original soul.
 
Yeah, Agreed. That's the Kabbalistic concept of Adam Kadmon. Being that Messiah is the restoration of Adam's soul.
 
We all have minds and even though we are surrounded by multitudes of other souls we still exist as lone individual personalities.
 
Yeah, Agreed. Even in that concept we all are saved or lost according to our own behaviors. I am not you, though we all are Adam (human beings).

 Viewing 'oneness' from our perspective is not going to be the same as from YHVH's. So just exactly how YHVH has accomplished His perfect will through His only begotten Son Yeshua is not so easy to understand unless you understand that if we all had the exact same opinions on everything yet were individuals we would still be one. If you seen me you would see Xus, or Shaul, or Simon Peter etc.,. We don't but we are supposed to all be filled with the mind that was in Messiah Yeshua. 
 
Exactly. I understand and Agree. Yeshua had God's mind; he was adhered to Him; which in Kabalah is named: Devekut (adhesion with God), which is something God expects from all of us (Dt 10:20; "to Him you shall adhere"). That's why Paul and Kabbalah said that in Messiah dwells the fulness of the Divine Nature. And we are to have Messiah's nature by obeying Torah.
 
I think Paul says expresses this concept (of oneness) very well in in his letter to the Philippians don't you?
 
Surely. I like the verse in Philipians chapter 2 you gave. Very beautiful how Paul explains (since verse 1:27) the needed oneness in believers' mind. BUT this chapter is not an evidence of Yeshua's Divinity. It's exactly the opposite. 
 
verse 1:     If you have any encouragement from being united with Messiah (a Kabbalah concept, very well known).
verse 2:     then.. ..being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
verse 3-4: Do nothing out of selfish ambition.. (another Kabbalah concept known as: Lishma [for her; for the Torah] and not Lo-Lishma [a selfish ambition])
                ..consider others better than yourselves (Lv 19:18).
verse 5:     your attitude (mind) should be the same as that of Messiah (the actitude of humbleness and serve others that the context is talking about).
verse 6:     who being under the form of Elohim (form, image; abstract similitude in essence, as Adam Rishon was in the beginning [Gn 1:27]. Also "degree of Elohim", as Moses was to Pharaoh [Ex 7:1])
                  did not plunder to be equal with God (as Hava, when she took from the Tree of knowledge [Gn 3:5 "you shall be as elohim"]).
verse 7:     but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant (We can notice that the Greek word: "morphe" is never used in Scripture with the meaning of "nature". Servant is not a NATURE, is a status, and is contrasted with "form" [morphe] of GOD. So, "the form of God" doesn't show us that Yeshua is literally God, but that he had the status of Elohim. "Elohim" means literally "Great Judge", as Moses was to Pharaoh (even he had his brother being his own prophet), but was humble enough to serve Israel, though he was in the form (status) of Elohim [Ex 7:1] ). 
                  and became in the likeness of men (Jn 13:14; likeness because he didn't sin [Ro 8:3], but suffered like any man)
verse 8:     and being found in condition as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even death on a wood (Mt 20:28 explains this concept. the Son of Man; i.e. the Messiah [the King of Israel, the agent of God] didn't come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life for many. We notice that all of this humbleness of Yeshua happened during his death; not when he was born. As we read in Isaiah 52:12 "so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the human beings". Everything Yeshua did, was an example for us. To be God and become human is not something that we can copy).

verse 9-10:Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place (Yeshua didn't exalted himself. God exalted him. If Yeshua is God there's a contradiction in this sentence. If Paul was trying to say that Yeshua is literally God, then he wrote a contradiction in this verse. Paul is actually quoting the Psalm 45 "you have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness, therefore, God, YOUR GOD has anointed you.. ..above your fellows".  Yeah, Yeshua has a God. There are not two Gods, so Yeshua cannot be God. Yeah, Yeshua has fellows, so if Yeshua is God, his fellows are God too. His fellows are humen, as we read: "For there is one only God, and one mediator between God and men, Yeshua the Messiah, who is a man" (1Ti 2:4). And then we get back to my first mail. -God exalted him to the highest place-, that's a quote of Psalm 110 "sit at my right hand". For he has put everything under his feet. 'Now when it says "everything" it is clear that this does not include God Himself, who put everything under the Messiah' (1Co 15:27).)

[ar...@rice.edu]

Great explanations Xus.
another interpretation: He is Zeir Anpin. In ????? arranged ?/?/?/??
each letter on top of the other starting with Yod at the top and the
second Heh at the bottom, we have ?? YaH who is the Father God-head,
?, Vav, who is the Zeir Anpin and the second ? being Malchut. The
first Yod is Abba, the first Heh is Imma, the Vav is Zeir Anpin and
the Son, and Heh is the Son's Bride, or Malchut. To Yod and Vav have
the desire to bestow and give as a masculine attribute, whereas the
Heh ? have the desire to receive in the cavity of the letter which is
a feminine attribute. The primordial sin severed the connection
between the Heh and the upper three letters. Every elevation of Heh
(Malchut) contributes to bringing Malchut and Zeir Anpin together,
eventually allowing for their wedding to take place, at the time when
God will be One and His Name will be One. This is also the essence of
Shavuot, which is a minor matrimonial ceremony between God's people
and Zeir Anpin - a shadow of the things to come. One unification was
about to take place at the giving of the commandments on mount Sinai,
however the connection was again severed by the sin of the golden
calf. The ultimate unification was enabled with the first coming of
the Messiah, his death and resurrection, and is going to happen at His
second coming and the wedding of the Lamb.

Shalom,
Anna

[XuS Casal]

I'm not sure if you realized Anni, but what you explain of haZeir Anpin is exactly what i have exposed. Just you used Kabbalah and I used Midrash. But the resoults are the same. And as always, No Sod interpretation can break a Peshat teaching. And a Kabbalistic vocabulary, for those that don't understand it is useless, but if you just simply say: "God want us to behave like Messiah, coz Messiah reached God's mind", then people can understand and practice Torah. That's why i prefer speak with simple vocabulary.
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-
 
> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 04:47:18 -0500
> From: ar...@rice.edu
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

[ar...@rice.edu]

:)) o.k. - goes into saying that great minds think alike even on
different levels of PaDReS ;) (I didn't break the Peshat, Drash and
Remez I think... correct me if I did.) ...and I'm sorry for not having
your quoted text bellow, I accidently emptied my whole inbox, and had
to read the JC discussion from another account while replying from
this one (I tried copy-pasting but the html composition got lost so I
didn't paste). Btw, your vocabulary isn't simple at all - it has about
the right sophistication for a scholar who wants to reach every
audience. :)

Shalom,
Anni

[XuS Casal]

hahaha ok, ok!!. Shalom, Ani
 
-XuS-
 
> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:57:34 -0500

[Kenny Cartwright]

Personally I appreciate both expressions, but I will need to print them out to medicate, er, uh, meditate on. I find it interesting that Matthew is a very midrashic gospel, XuS- you brought that out well. I am a beginning kabbalah student, so the kabbalistic side is very much appreciated by me as well. Shabbat Shalom to you all!!

kenny

[Judaism's Answer]

How can you say that the Messiah is Z'A, when in the Zohar and the Kabbalah works it says explicitly that the Messiah is malkut?

Moshe Shulman   718-436-7705  outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer:  http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: ar...@rice.edu

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 5:47 AM

Subject: RE: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

[Judaism's Answer]

I like your comments on Isaiah 7, they are very good. However there is still the problem with Matthew. He understood it as a literal prophecy. I don't see how you get around that. A Midrash is not a prophecy.

Moshe Shulman   718-436-7705  outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer:  http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: XuS Casal

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:14 PM

Subject: RE: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

[XuS Casal]

Nope. Christians understood that Matthew understood a literal prophecy, in Iasiah 7 (that's why they never read the context surrounding the sing of the Almah), when the real point is that from the proper interpretation of the whole book of Isaiah, Matthew found Messianic allusions.
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-

 

---

From: outr...@judaismsanswer.com

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 19:08:45 -0400

[avi5207]

Amen! And as far as the midrashim go I am sure most observant orthodox Jews consider the midrash as much Torah as the books of Moshe. Much of Paul's writings depend heavily on the midrashic nature of rabbinic debate.

Shalom,

Avi


On 6/10/2011 10:48 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

Nope. Christians understood that Matthew understood�a literal prophecy, in Iasiah 7 (that's why they never read the context surrounding the sing of the Almah), when the real point is that�from the proper interpretation of�the whole book of Isaiah, Matthew�found Messianic allusions.
�
Shalom
�
-XuS-

�

---

From: outr...@judaismsanswer.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Who is Imanuel?
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 19:08:45 -0400

I like your comments on Isaiah 7, they are very good. However there is still the problem with Matthew. He understood it as a literal prophecy. I don't see how you get around that. A Midrash is not a prophecy.

Moshe Shulman�� 718-436-7705� outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer:� http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: XuS Casal

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:14 PM

Subject: RE: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

So how does your explanation differ from mine?

�
Not deffers too much, actually, just in the detail that you said he's literally God. In a Jewish understanding Yeshua is not literally God. Cannot be. Because God is everywhere, but NOTHING created is God,�not even�the Messiah. That deals with the reasons I gave you in the previous mails, and also because of some details that contradict that Yeshua would be literally God. Otherwise he�raised prayers to himself. He claimed to himself when he was at the cross. he�was saved from death by himself. He needed to learn to reject evil (which is completly blasphemous, if we think we are talking about the One God). He said that the Father knows things�that he doesn't know,�And when he call to the Father: 'My God', he then would mean... Himself???�And because he said thousand times that God (his God and our God)�sent him, not that�he sent himself. These are some basic details.
�

So if He was literally God with us as the TaNaK states

�
I didn't say this�in the Midrash of Imanuel, i said exactly the opposite. God is with Us through him; he's not literally God.
�

We all have souls that came from the original soul.

�

Yeah, Agreed. That's the Kabbalistic concept of Adam Kadmon. Being that Messiah is the restoration of Adam's soul.

�

We all have minds and even though we are surrounded by multitudes of other souls we still exist as lone individual personalities.

�

Yeah, Agreed. Even in that concept we all are saved or lost according to our own behaviors. I am not you, though we all are Adam (human beings).

�Viewing 'oneness' from our perspective is not going to be the same as from YHVH's. So just exactly how YHVH has accomplished His perfect will through His only begotten Son Yeshua is not so easy to understand unless you understand that if we all had the exact same opinions on everything yet were individuals we would still be one. If you seen me you would see Xus, or Shaul, or Simon Peter etc.,. We don't but we are supposed to all be filled with the mind that was in Messiah Yeshua.�
�
Exactly. I�understand and Agree. Yeshua had God's mind; he was adhered to Him; which in Kabalah is named: Devekut (adhesion with God), which is something God expects from all of us (Dt 10:20; "to Him you shall adhere"). That's why Paul and Kabbalah said that in Messiah dwells the fulness of the Divine Nature. And we are to have Messiah's nature by obeying Torah.
�

I think Paul says expresses this concept (of oneness) very well in in his letter to the Philippians don't you?

�
Surely. I like the verse in Philipians chapter 2�you gave. Very beautiful how Paul explains (since verse 1:27) the needed�oneness in believers'�mind.�BUT this chapter is not an evidence of Yeshua's Divinity. It's exactly�the opposite.�
�
verse 1:���� If you have any encouragement from being united with Messiah (a Kabbalah concept, very well known).
verse 2:���� then.. ..being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

verse 3-4: Do nothing out of selfish ambition.. (another Kabbalah concept known as: Lishma [for her; for the Torah] and not Lo-Lishma [a selfish ambition])

����������������..consider others better than yourselves (Lv 19:18).
verse 5:���� your attitude (mind)�should be the same as that of Messiah (the actitude of humbleness and serve others that the context is talking about).
verse 6:���� who being under the�form of Elohim (form, image; abstract similitude in essence,�as Adam Rishon�was in the beginning�[Gn 1:27]. Also "degree of Elohim", as Moses was to Pharaoh [Ex 7:1])
����������������� did not plunder to be equal with God (as Hava, when she took from the Tree of knowledge [Gn 3:5 "you shall be as elohim"]).
verse 7:���� but made himself nothing, taking the�form of a servant (We can notice that the Greek word: "morphe" is never used in Scripture with the meaning of "nature". Servant is not a NATURE, is a status, and is contrasted with "form" [morphe]�of GOD. So, "the form of God" doesn't show us that Yeshua is literally God, but that he had the status of Elohim. "Elohim" means literally "Great Judge", as Moses was to Pharaoh (even he�had his brother being his own prophet), but was humble enough to serve Israel, though he was in the form (status) of�Elohim [Ex 7:1] ).�
����������������� and became in the likeness of men�(Jn 13:14; likeness because he didn't sin [Ro 8:3], but suffered�like any man)
verse 8:���� and being found in condition as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even death on a wood (Mt 20:28 explains this concept. the Son of Man; i.e. the Messiah [the King of Israel, the agent of God] didn't come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life for many. We notice that all of this humbleness of Yeshua happened during his death; not when he was born. As we read in Isaiah 52:12 "so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the human beings". Everything Yeshua did, was an example for us. To be God and become human is not something that we can copy).
verse 9-10:Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place�(Yeshua didn't exalted himself. God exalted him. If Yeshua is God there's a contradiction in this sentence. If Paul was trying to say that Yeshua is literally God, then he wrote a contradiction in this verse. Paul is actually quoting the Psalm 45 "you have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness, therefore, God, YOUR GOD has anointed you.. ..above your fellows".� Yeah, Yeshua has a God. There are�not two Gods, so Yeshua cannot be God. Yeah, Yeshua has fellows, so if Yeshua is God, his fellows are God too. His fellows are humen, as we read: "For there is one only�God, and one mediator between God and men, Yeshua the Messiah, who is a man" (1Ti 2:4). And then we get back to my first mail. -God exalted him to the highest place-, that's a quote of Psalm 110 "sit at my right hand". For he has put everything under his feet. 'Now when it says "everything" it is clear that this does not include God Himself, who put everything under the Messiah' (1Co 15:27).)
���������������� and gave him the name that that is above every name...
verse 11:�..to the glory of God the Father (again, the exaltation, kingship and honor of Yeshua is to honor only HaShem, God his Father, not to the glory of Yeshua. If Yeshua is God, that's a contradiction again. But that's not so if Yeshua represents God, as we read in Torah: "I will put my Words in his mouth" (Dt 18:18). Again, if Yeshua is God, is a contradiction that God put His Words in his mouth, and he speaks in God's name. But that's not so If Yeshua represents God. If Yeshua was God, is a contradiction that was under the��Nature? of God, and stopped being God for to be in �human? form, because God is not human [Nm 23:19] and God does not change [Mal 3:6]).��
�
One marginal note about verse 6. The Greek�word used: 'Huparcho' doesn't mean to "exist" as if: "He existed in God's form". Nop. The word Huparcho means: "being" [literally: being under], which is a temporal and limited status of being. We read that "Stephen was [huparcho]�full of holy spirit" (Acts 7:55) which was a temporal status. We read that Kepha was [huparcho]�Jew (Gal 2:14) which is a limited status while he was on this planet. and we can see more examples about this word, but i think with these two examples the word is made clear.
�
Shalom
�
-XuS-
�
�

---

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 09:14:01 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Who is Imanuel?

Good midrash. So how does your explanation differ from mine? I say Yeshua was a form of God manifested in human form just as the scriptures I listed in my previous post say. I say He was a form of God that could exist in this physical world without destroying it. So if He was literally God with us as the TaNaK states and NT confirms why is there still confusion? I don't propose that there are three separate gods in the 'godhead' as the church does. I say that YHVH has many forms and appears in them as needed from time to time to accomplish His will. The concept of 'oneness' or 'echad' from a Torah perspective is a difficult one to understand since we are all one in a carnal sense being literally from the same two people who were first just one called 'Adam'. We all have souls that came from the original soul. We all have minds and even though we are surrounded by multitudes of other souls we still exist as lone individual personalities. Viewing 'oneness' from our perspective is not going to be the same as from YHVH's. So just exactly how YHVH has accomplished His perfect will through His only begotten Son Yeshua is not so easy to understand unless you understand that if we all had the exact same opinions on everything yet were individuals we would still be one. If you seen me you would see Xus, or Shaul, or Simon Peter etc.,. We don't but we are supposed to all be filled with the mind that was in Messiah Yeshua. �

• Php 2:1-15� If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,� (2)� Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.� (3)� Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.� (4)� Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.� (5)� Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:� (6)� Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:� (7)� But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:� (8)� And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.� (9)� Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:� (10)� That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;� (11)� And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.� (12)� Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.� (13)� For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.� (14)� Do all things without murmurings and disputings:� (15)� That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

I think Paul says expresses this concept (of oneness) very well in in his letter to the Philippians don't you?

Shalom,


Avi


On 6/2/2011 6:43 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

Who is Imanuel? I wonder if any christian has ever read the sentence in its whole context.
Today we are gonna study it.

�
(Is 7:10)� And�HaShem spoke again to Ahaz, saying:
(Is 7:11)� 'Ask�for you�a sign of�HaShem�your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the highest heights.'
(Is 7:12)��But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, and I won't put HaShem to the test.'
(Is 7:13)� And he [Isaiah]�said: 'Hear now, house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that�you will weary my God also?

(Is 7:14) Therefore�Adonai Himself�will give you a sign: behold, the�maiden [haAlmah]�is pregnant, and�will give birth to�a son, and she will�call his name Immanuel [the�Mighty with us].

(Is 7:15) He will eat curd and honey, when he knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

(Is 7:16) But before the child knows enough�to reject the evil, and choose the good, the land�of the�two kings you dread will be laid waste.
�
Basic questions: who speaks the prophecy? Isaiah. To whom? To Ahaz. What is the prophecy about?�The future wife of Ahaz�will have a son, and before the son grow enough, his two enemies will�be defeated: Samaria and Damascus.
�
Detailed Questions: When Ahaz son was born, what was his name? Hezekiah (2kings 16:20). Was Hezekiah a human god? Nope. Does God need to learn to reject evil? Nope. Why then the prophet named him prophetically "the Mighty is with us"? Because God was with him, in all of his work as king of Israel, because God was with Israel,�as we read:
�

�"[Hezekiah] trusted in HaShem, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him. For he cleaved to HaShem, and did not ceased� to following Him, but kept His commandments, which�HaShem commanded Moshe. And�HaShem was with him: whithersoever he went forth he prospered; and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and did not serve him". (2Kings 18:5-7)
�

Contextual questions: Do we have any other similar prophecy? Yes. In Is 8 we read:

�
"And I went to the prophetess; and she conceived, and�gave birth to�a son. Then�HaShem said�to me: 'Call his name Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz [quick to the plunder, swift to the spoil]. For before the child knows how to say: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the�plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.' And�HaShem spoke to me again, saying: Because this people has rejected�the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoices�over Rezin and Remaliah's son; Now therefore, behold,�HaShem is about to bring�against them the waters of the River, mighty and many; the king of Assyria and all his pomp; It will overflow all its channels, and�run over all�its banks; And sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck; and its outspread wings will�cover the breadth of your land, O Immanuel" (Is 8:3-8).
�
More contextual questions: How many similarities do we find with Is 7?��A woman is pregnant and gives birth a son. the son recieves a prophetic name. before the son grows, Samaria and Damascus�will be�defeated. And the name Imanuel is used again. This time, who recieves the name: Imanuel? Judah. So is Judah a human god? Nope. What God is trying to say is:
�

'Judah, be calm, because God is with you. Samaria and Damascus won't destroy you. That kid will eat curd and honey (the meal of Canaan)'.

�
Midrashic Question: Why then Matityahu (Matthew) understood that the prophecy in Isa�ah 7 fulfills the Messianic expectation?
Matthew uses the PARDES to interpret Isaiah. Messiah's birth match�ALMOST all�similitudes. A maiden is pregnant and gives birth a son. The son recieves a prophetic name: Yeshua (for he shall save his people from their sins).�And the name Imanuel is used again. �But his enemies are not defeated before the kid grow up, but when he was elevated due to his innocent death. Matthew uses REMEZ to link all the births mentioned by Isaiah.
Being the last of them a mention of the Messianic kingdom, when every�war against Israel�may cease, because HaShem will reign through the Messiah:
�
"Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government will be�on his shoulder: and his name shall be called: Wonderful Counsellor, El Gibor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne, and�over his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from that time on and forever. The zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this". (Is 9:5-6)
�
�Contextual Question of the Midrash: Are literal the prophetical names of Isaiah?�Nop. The Prophetic names of Isaiah show an atribute of God. But they are not to be taken literally, like�Maher-Shalal- Hashbaz,�like Hezekiah, that wasn't God, but he was part of the "us" in God with us. The same way�Judah, that is called Imanuel is not God,�but part of the "us" in God with us.�So thins long name for the Messiah in Is 9:6 is not the literal name of Messiah but the atributes of God shown in Messiah. Or did anyone call Yeshua: Everlasting Father?? NEVER. From the Remez of Matthew,� it is understood that Messiah represents God, and that God will save His people from the root of Jesse (Is 11:1); i.e. the Messiah. As we read: the Zeal of HaShem Tsebaot will perform this.
So�the reason that Matthew used Isaiah�7:14 to allude Messiah, instead of any other verse, is because of the connection between Imanuel and the Almah, which is another topic.
�
Shalom
�
-XuS-���
�
�
�
�
�

�

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GROUP RULES: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcrules
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Shalom
~ The JC Team

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

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====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we recommend you change your delivery options to �Daily Summary� or �Abridged."
�

CHANGE Your Delivery Options: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery
START A New Topic: send a new email to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
READ All Messages Online: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcread
UNSUBSCRIBE: go to http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery and click Unsubscribe

�
GROUP RULES: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcrules
�

Shalom
~ The JC Team

�

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

--
====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we recommend you change your delivery options to �Daily Summary� or �Abridged."
�

CHANGE Your Delivery Options: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery
START A New Topic: send a new email to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
READ All Messages Online: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcread
UNSUBSCRIBE: go to http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery and click Unsubscribe

�
GROUP RULES: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcrules
�

Shalom
~ The JC Team

�

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.
--
====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we recommend you change your delivery options to �Daily Summary� or �Abridged."
�

CHANGE Your Delivery Options: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery
START A New Topic: send a new email to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
READ All Messages Online: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcread
UNSUBSCRIBE: go to http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery and click Unsubscribe

�
GROUP RULES: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcrules
�

Shalom
~ The JC Team

�