Restaurants on the Sabbath?

[firecra...@aol.com]

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger

[Israel]

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger

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[Bryce Henderson]

Ben Yehuda square in Jerusalem is a hoppin' a few hours after sunset! During Shabbat only a few secular establishments in downtown Jerusalem can be found open.

[P Malachi Bond]

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true. 

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch. 

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of. 

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation? 

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest. 

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

 

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

[Miguel]

Even here in Los Angeles California it's very difficult to find a Torah Believing congregation so don't be discouraged. I hope someone here can  help for you and trust that YHVH will provide with guidance through His Spirit!

Sent from my iPhone

[firecra...@aol.com]

All restaurants in the U.S. and all retail stores stay open on Shabat. Less than 0.1% of U.S. citizens observe Shabat. I know of no pure kosher restaurants anywhere in our area. The closest we can come to kosher is avoiding the forbidden foods. Some grocery stores have small kosher sections with a few items available. My question has more to do with whether paying for the food constitutes a financial transaction that would be forbidden? It is very difficult to observe the law when living in the U.S. There are VERY FEW people that share your desire. I want to fellowship with other believers, but many are half hearted about obeying the law, even Messianics. A few token things are enough for them. I want more to them. I don't want to be judgemental, but I want to be around those that share my views. I read an article recently that said objects in a room tend to take on the temperature of the room. I want to be in a red hot room. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 10:47 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

[firecra...@aol.com]

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas & Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.  This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>

[Jeff Ashman]

B"H
 
Shalom Roger!  It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has placed you in.  My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.  On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.  Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.  Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.  You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.  Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.  I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.  Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.  There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
 
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."




 

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

[ShieldofAbraham]

My comments mirror Jeff's .  Florida Messianic congregation of which there are at least 20 tend to be more conservative than let's say Pennsylvania or New Jersey.  What  I try to do is enjoy the sabbath and I try to spend as much time in fellowship with family and friends as I can.  I designate thursday for meal planning and shopping and friday for cleaning and cooking that way I get everything done before Saturday since my family knows that I went to great deal of trouble to get the meals planned table set nicely  and ready for a beautiful meal no one asks to go out to eat and I do not say a single word and we all enjoy our time together.  If I were you I would say to my friends well in advance and maybe a follow up call that you want them to come to your house for lunch so you can get the opportunity to fellowship with them more because you treasure their company.  If you want to change there is Beth Simcha in Sarasota who typically serve a fellowship lunch after service.  In summary I say do all that you can to enjoy to Sabbath and accept the people that G-d has placed in your path.  

[Avigdor Levi Serrano]

Nehemiah 10:31 

 ³¹ “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

 

Nehemiah 13:15-22 

 ¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”  ¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.   Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

 

Avi

 

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

[Daniel Crouch]

Thoughts about this:

 

This scripture below is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.  There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

 

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where did they eat?

Were they to starve from Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

 

I do not think so.

 

The below scripture seems to referencing people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

 

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem to feed visitors on the Sabbath?  Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get a tongue-lashing for it?  They did, and it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

 

Certainly, packing a lunch is a solution.  But it may not be practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

 

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.  Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

 

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.  But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.  I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.  It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly. 

 

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.  Perhaps their hosts advised them to.  But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?  Where did they eat?

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM

Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31 

 ³¹ “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

 

Nehemiah 13:15-22 

 ¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”  ¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.   Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

 

Avi

 

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H
 
Shalom Roger!  It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has placed you in.  My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.  On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.  Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.  Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.  You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.  Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.  I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.  Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.  There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
 
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A

http://toemunah.blogspot.com/

[iserv...@mac.com]

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

[Daniel Crouch]

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.  It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to gentiles.

But, it would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.  And to clean up later.  I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM

[avi5207]

The congregation I usually attend is Living Waters Messianic Fellowship located in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Our services start at 10:30 and go till 4PM or later so we break about 1-1:30 for a pot luck lunch. This works out best for us. I suggest you talk this over with the church elders as well as those you carpool with. They might like the idea of having a weekly pot luck fellowship lunch with those that can attend services. Nothing better than 'church lady' cooking in my book! :-)�

In any case it is clear from the Torah that we are to labor to enter the rest on the Sabbath day and this includes careful planning for meals and such. We are to prepare our meals in advance so that a minimal amount of work is done. The key is to show our trust in God's provision on the Sabbath. God has made this 24 hour period of time perpetually sacred and He does not want us focused on anything concerning the worldly day to day events we are doing on the other 6 days. There are exceptions of course but abstaining from work or causing others to work is the rule. Some must work on the Sabbath day to preserve life and property. Consider this point. If you go into a restaurant and purchase a meal on the Sabbath day you are making a temporary servant do labor on the Sabbath day. I know it is a difficult situation for you so seek the help of the Holy Spirit that all true believers are filled with and sealed by as well as referring to the Torah. We must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Shalom,

Avi� �

On 1/14/2011 9:22 AM, firecra...@aol.com wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger

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[Avigdor Levi Serrano]

 
You bring up great points.  I just look at it a bit different thats all.  Nehemiah was a prophet.  Prophets as you know represent Hashem.  It is Hashem who puts the words into the prophets mouth.  I understand that it is not Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?  To me it was extremely important to Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.  Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it to someone else. As you know life comes first.  This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.  So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
 
 In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.  Why?  So we would be prepared for the Shabbat.  I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.  Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.  Especially with family members who are secular or don't believe like we do.  So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.  I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.  We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters. 
 
Shemot 16
 
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day. 
 
 
 
Just my two shekels and what I believe.  Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.  You will be regular if you know what I mean.
 
Blessings 
 
Avi 

 

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Daniel Crouch]

Excellent points.

Of course, I do believe Nehemiah was a prophet, and that his words are inspired.

The double portion is the biggest hint that we should prepare for shabbat's food needs.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 3:36:45 PM

[avi5207]

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.� To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.� Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.� Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

�
You bring up great points.� I�just look at it a bit different thats all.� Nehemiah was a prophet.��Prophets as you�know represent Hashem.� It is Hashem�who puts the words into the prophets mouth.� I understand that it is not�Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?� To�me�it was extremely important to�Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.��Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it�to someone�else.�As you know life comes first.� This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.� So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
�
�In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.� Why?� So we would be prepared�for the Shabbat.� I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.� Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.� Especially with family members�who are secular or don't believe like we do.� So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.� I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.� We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters.�
�
Shemot 16
�
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, �This is what the LORD has said: �Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.�� ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, �Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.�
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, �How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.� ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day.�
�
�
�
Just my two�shekels and what I believe.��Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.� You will be regular if you know what I mean.
�
Blessings�
�
Avi�

�

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.� It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to�gentiles.

But,�it�would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.� And to clean up later.� I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

�

This scripture below�is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.� There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

�

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where�did they eat?

Were they to starve from�Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

�

I do not think so.

�

The below scripture seems to referencing�people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off�of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

�

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem�to feed visitors on the Sabbath?� Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get�a tongue-lashing for it?� They did, and�it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

�

Certainly, packing�a lunch is a solution.� But it may not be�practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

�

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.� Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

�

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.� But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.� I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.� It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly.�

�

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.� Perhaps their hosts advised them to.� But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?� Where did they eat?

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31�

�³¹ �When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

�

Nehemiah 13:15-22�

�¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, �What is this wicked thing you are doing�desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn�t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.���¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, �Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.� From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.���Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

�

Avi

�

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H

�
Shalom Roger!� It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has�placed you in.� My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.� On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.� Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.� Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such�his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.� You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.� Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.� I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.� Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.� There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
�
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!� Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

�

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us�each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas�& Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.� This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true.�

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch.�

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of.�

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation?�

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest.�

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

�

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[Jim]

Avi,

 

Can you please explain your comment?

"One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? "

Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.  To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.  Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.  Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

 
You bring up great points.  I just look at it a bit different thats all.  Nehemiah was a prophet.  Prophets as you know represent Hashem.  It is Hashem who puts the words into the prophets mouth.  I understand that it is not Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?  To me it was extremely important to Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.  Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it to someone else. As you know life comes first.  This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.  So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
 
 In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.  Why?  So we would be prepared for the Shabbat.  I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.  Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.  Especially with family members who are secular or don't believe like we do.  So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.  I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.  We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters. 
 
Shemot 16
 
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day. 
 
 
 

Just my two shekels and what I believe.  Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.  You will be regular if you know what I mean.
 
Blessings 
 
Avi 

 

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.  It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to gentiles.

But, it would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.  And to clean up later.  I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

 

This scripture below is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.  There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

 

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where did they eat?

Were they to starve from Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

 

I do not think so.

 

The below scripture seems to referencing people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

 

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem to feed visitors on the Sabbath?  Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get a tongue-lashing for it?  They did, and it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

 

Certainly, packing a lunch is a solution.  But it may not be practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

 

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.  Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

 

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.  But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.  I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.  It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly. 

 

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.  Perhaps their hosts advised them to.  But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?  Where did they eat?

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31 

 ³¹ “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

 

Nehemiah 13:15-22 

 ¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”  ¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.   Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

 

Avi

 

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H
 

Shalom Roger!  It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has placed you in.  My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.  On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.  Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.  Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.  You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.  Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.  I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.  Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.  There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
 
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."




 

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas & Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.  This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true. 

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch. 

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of. 

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation? 

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest. 

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

 

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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Albert Einstein said: “The World is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”

[firecra...@aol.com]

Thanks for your reply. Our church does have a pot luck lunch once a month. When my wife and I were driving(50 miles) to church ourselves we took a picnic lunch and stopped on the way. Our services are from 2:30 to 4:30 PM. Being 50 miles away it is difficult to get to know people. We found two people from our area that attend. We are talking about alternating driving down together. It is an opportunity to get to know some believers close by that we can fellowship with regularly. They have been in the habit of stopping to eat on the way home after service at a restaurant. I don't want to lose the opportunity to fellowship and make new friends, but I don't want to offend Hashem either. After today one woman will be gone for 5 weeks and we will not be car pooling. I need to take this time to find out what will be more pleasing to Hashem. Is the fellowship more important or is the letter of the law more important? I have the option of attending the 7th Day Baptist Church in town, but there is no zeal for the law there. I don't know if I said this before, but I read an article recently that said objects in a room tend to take on the temperature of the room. I want to be in a redhot room. There is definiely more zeal for the law in the Orlando church than in the local church. I will gladly drive there myself if that's what pleases Hashem the most. Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

The congregation I usually attend is Living Waters Messianic Fellowship located in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Our services start at 10:30 and go till 4PM or later so we break about 1-1:30 for a pot luck lunch. This works out best for us. I suggest you talk this over with the church elders as well as those you carpool with. They might like the idea of having a weekly pot luck fellowship lunch with those that can attend services. Nothing better than 'church lady' cooking in my book! :-) 

In any case it is clear from the Torah that we are to labor to enter the rest on the Sabbath day and this includes careful planning for meals and such. We are to prepare our meals in advance so that a minimal amount of work is done. The key is to show our trust in God's provision on the Sabbath. God has made this 24 hour period of time perpetually sacred and He does not want us focused on anything concerning the worldly day to day events we are doing on the other 6 days. There are exceptions of course but abstaining from work or causing others to work is the rule. Some must work on the Sabbath day to preserve life and property. Consider this point. If you go into a restaurant and purchase a meal on the Sabbath day you are making a temporary servant do labor on the Sabbath day. I know it is a difficult situation for you so seek the help of the Holy Spirit that all true believers are filled with and sealed by as well as referring to the Torah. We must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Shalom,

Avi   

On 1/14/2011 9:22 AM, firecra...@aol.com wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[firecra...@aol.com]

These people are not eating to preserve life. Taking a picnic lunch is an option. I will discuss this with them and ask them why they think it is OK to eat at a restaurant. I have only eaten at a restaurant twice since observing Shabat. Once was when visiting a church in S.C. and they thought it was allowed because Mr. Armstrong had taught it. The other time was in Orlando when my granddaughter was baptized and it was my only chance to see my family in over a year. I know that there are exceptions such as David eating the Showbread. I'm just not sure yet what constitutes a valid exception. Shalom! Roger

[avi5207]

Yes it is a bit difficult to balance things out at times isn't it? I will pray with you as your brother in Messiah Yeshua that our Heavenly Father makes a way for you and your wife to worship where He wants you to worship. A place where the shepherd feeds you His word only.

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/15/2011 8:38 AM, firecra...@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for your reply. Our church does have a pot luck lunch once a month. When my wife and I were driving(50 miles) to church ourselves we took a picnic lunch and stopped on the way. Our services are from 2:30 to 4:30 PM. Being 50 miles away it is difficult to get to know people. We found two people from our area that attend. We are talking about alternating driving down together. It is an opportunity to get to know some believers close by that we can fellowship with regularly. They have been in the habit of stopping to eat on the way home after service at a restaurant. I don't want to lose the opportunity to fellowship and make new friends, but I don't want to offend Hashem either. After today one woman will be gone for 5 weeks and we will not be car pooling. I need to take this time to find out what will be more pleasing to Hashem. Is the fellowship more important or is the letter of the law more important? I have the option of attending the 7th Day Baptist Church in town, but there is no zeal for the law there. I don't know if I said this before, but I read an article recently that said objects in a room tend to take on the temperature of the room. I want to be in a redhot room. There is definiely more zeal for the law in the Orlando church than in the local church. I will gladly drive there myself if that's what pleases Hashem the most. Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

The congregation I usually attend is Living Waters Messianic Fellowship located in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Our services start at 10:30 and go till 4PM or later so we break about 1-1:30 for a pot luck lunch. This works out best for us. I suggest you talk this over with the church elders as well as those you carpool with. They might like the idea of having a weekly pot luck fellowship lunch with those that can attend services. Nothing better than 'church lady' cooking in my book! :-)�

In any case it is clear from the Torah that we are to labor to enter the rest on the Sabbath day and this includes careful planning for meals and such. We are to prepare our meals in advance so that a minimal amount of work is done. The key is to show our trust in God's provision on the Sabbath. God has made this 24 hour period of time perpetually sacred and He does not want us focused on anything concerning the worldly day to day events we are doing on the other 6 days. There are exceptions of course but abstaining from work or causing others to work is the rule. Some must work on the Sabbath day to preserve life and property. Consider this point. If you go into a restaurant and purchase a meal on the Sabbath day you are making a temporary servant do labor on the Sabbath day. I know it is a difficult situation for you so seek the help of the Holy Spirit that all true believers are filled with and sealed by as well as referring to the Torah. We must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Shalom,

Avi� �

On 1/14/2011 9:22 AM, firecra...@aol.com wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[avi5207]

Sure, here is the verse.

• And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. (Neh 8:17)

Joshua had ruled in Moses place nearly 800 to 1000 years earlier. The feast was celebrated in Solomon's time but it seems no one dwelt in booths.

• Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had shewed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people. (2Ch 7:8-10)

It was at the feast of Sukkote that Solomon dedicated the Temple.

Does this help?

Shalom,

Avi

On 1/15/2011 7:28 AM, Jim wrote:

Avi,

�

Can you please explain your comment?

"One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? "

Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.� To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.� Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.� Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

�
You bring up great points.� I�just look at it a bit different thats all.� Nehemiah was a prophet.��Prophets as you�know represent Hashem.� It is Hashem�who puts the words into the prophets mouth.� I understand that it is not�Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?� To�me�it was extremely important to�Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.��Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it�to someone�else.�As you know life comes first.� This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.� So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
�
�In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.� Why?� So we would be prepared�for the Shabbat.� I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.� Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.� Especially with family members�who are secular or don't believe like we do.� So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.� I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.� We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters.�
�
Shemot 16
�
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, �This is what the LORD has said: �Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.�� ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, �Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.�
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, �How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.� ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day.�
�
�
�
Just my two�shekels and what I believe.��Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.� You will be regular if you know what I mean.
�
Blessings�
�
Avi�

�

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.� It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to�gentiles.

But,�it�would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.� And to clean up later.� I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

�

This scripture below�is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.� There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

�

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where�did they eat?

Were they to starve from�Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

�

I do not think so.

�

The below scripture seems to referencing�people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off�of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

�

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem�to feed visitors on the Sabbath?� Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get�a tongue-lashing for it?� They did, and�it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

�

Certainly, packing�a lunch is a solution.� But it may not be�practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

�

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.� Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

�

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.� But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.� I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.� It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly.�

�

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.� Perhaps their hosts advised them to.� But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?� Where did they eat?

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31�

�³¹ �When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

�

Nehemiah 13:15-22�

�¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, �What is this wicked thing you are doing�desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn�t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.���¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, �Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.� From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.���Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

�

Avi

�

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H

�
Shalom Roger!� It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has�placed you in.� My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.� On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.� Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.� Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such�his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.� You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.� Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.� I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.� Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.� There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
�
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!� Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

�

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us�each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas�& Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.� This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true.�

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch.�

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of.�

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation?�

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest.�

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

�

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[Jim]

Avi please forgive me I will have to get back with you on all of this after Shabbat.  I am in the process of dealing with many things this morning as one of my Jewish friends who is 90 is dying and his daughter who has not practiced is wanting information and help for preparation at death.  I also have to get ready for services so I must go for now!

Shabbat Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Sure, here is the verse.

• And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. (Neh 8:17)

Joshua had ruled in Moses place nearly 800 to 1000 years earlier. The feast was celebrated in Solomon's time but it seems no one dwelt in booths.

• Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had shewed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people. (2Ch 7:8-10)

It was at the feast of Sukkote that Solomon dedicated the Temple.

Does this help?

Shalom,

Avi

On 1/15/2011 7:28 AM, Jim wrote:

Avi,

 

Can you please explain your comment?

"One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? "

Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.  To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.  Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.  Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

 
You bring up great points.  I just look at it a bit different thats all.  Nehemiah was a prophet.  Prophets as you know represent Hashem.  It is Hashem who puts the words into the prophets mouth.  I understand that it is not Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?  To me it was extremely important to Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.  Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it to someone else. As you know life comes first.  This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.  So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
 
 In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.  Why?  So we would be prepared for the Shabbat.  I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.  Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.  Especially with family members who are secular or don't believe like we do.  So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.  I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.  We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters. 
 
Shemot 16
 
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day. 
 
 
 

Just my two shekels and what I believe.  Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.  You will be regular if you know what I mean.
 
Blessings 
 
Avi 

 

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.  It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to gentiles.

But, it would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.  And to clean up later.  I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

 

This scripture below is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.  There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

 

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where did they eat?

Were they to starve from Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

 

I do not think so.

 

The below scripture seems to referencing people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

 

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem to feed visitors on the Sabbath?  Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get a tongue-lashing for it?  They did, and it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

 

Certainly, packing a lunch is a solution.  But it may not be practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

 

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.  Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

 

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.  But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.  I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.  It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly. 

 

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.  Perhaps their hosts advised them to.  But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?  Where did they eat?

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31 

 ³¹ “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

 

Nehemiah 13:15-22 

 ¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”  ¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.   Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

 

Avi

 

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H
 

Shalom Roger!  It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has placed you in.  My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.  On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.  Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.  Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.  You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.  Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.  I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.  Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.  There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
 
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."




 

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas & Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.  This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true. 

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch. 

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of. 

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation? 

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest. 

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

 

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[Jim]

Shalom Avi,

 

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.  I have been dealing with the death of a close Jewish friend and trying to do what I can there and here and just have not had time to get back with you in this verse of scripture and your understanding that the feast of tabernacles was not celebrated in booths during the time period from Joshua until Nehemiah.

 

I understand this statement to be saying something completely different.  Remember Joshua brought the Israelites into the land and when they celebrated the first Tabernacles in the land it was an especially joyous occasion.

 

Now we see them coming back into the land during this time period after their exile and this too is the first time they have celebrated in such a joyous manner since the first when Joshua brought them into the land.

 

This then ties these two occasion together in time with the coming into the land and as this scripture states it was a very great gladness.  This is what all I find in the commentary of my research.  Can we really believe that Samuel the prophet would not have been told by The HOLY ONE before David's time that they were violating such a part of this command?  I find nothing in all of the Judges about such, and here is another thought.  If we are going to rely only on the fact that booths are mentioned here and place the emphasis on that then shall we read the rest of the scriptures in this same way?  If so where does it say that they celebrated in booths in the days of Joshua?  For that matter where does it say that Nehemiah celebrated Atonement?  You see what I mean and I could give many such examples.

 

I see the emphasis on this verse as I do where the Hebrew etseem HaYom is translated 'selfsame day'.  It is linking two particular time periods that have a likeness in something that happened on as with etseem hayom the time or day on which these things happened.

 

Now the time period between Joshua entering the land in 2488 until Solomon was exactly 436 years.  This is computed by knowing in chronological information in Seder Olam to the Exodus at 2448 and their coming into the land 40 years later.  Then 1Kings 6:1 tells us it was 480 years after the Exodus to the 4th year of Solomon's reign when he began the building of the Temple.  2448 plus 480 is 2928 and backing up 4 years gives us Solomon's first year as 2924.  From that point to the destruction of the First Temple can also be computed from Seder Olam and the scriptures as the Temple was destroyed in 3338 and this then would have been another 414 years.  From that point until the time of Nehemiah can also be computed by the scriptures to the year 3422 which is then the 70th year after the information given us by Ezekiel in his 40 chapter vss 1,2., and Nehemiah 1:1 which also indicates it is the 20th years he was in the palace of Shushan.

 

Shalom

Yaakov 

 

The total time then would have been 436+411+70= 920 years.

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Sure, here is the verse.

• And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. (Neh 8:17)

Joshua had ruled in Moses place nearly 800 to 1000 years earlier. The feast was celebrated in Solomon's time but it seems no one dwelt in booths.

• Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had shewed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people. (2Ch 7:8-10)

It was at the feast of Sukkote that Solomon dedicated the Temple.

Does this help?

Shalom,

Avi

On 1/15/2011 7:28 AM, Jim wrote:

Avi,

 

Can you please explain your comment?

"One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? "

Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.  To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.  Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.  Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

 
You bring up great points.  I just look at it a bit different thats all.  Nehemiah was a prophet.  Prophets as you know represent Hashem.  It is Hashem who puts the words into the prophets mouth.  I understand that it is not Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?  To me it was extremely important to Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.  Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it to someone else. As you know life comes first.  This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.  So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
 
 In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.  Why?  So we would be prepared for the Shabbat.  I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.  Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.  Especially with family members who are secular or don't believe like we do.  So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.  I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.  We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters. 
 
Shemot 16
 
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day. 
 
 
 

Just my two shekels and what I believe.  Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.  You will be regular if you know what I mean.
 
Blessings 
 
Avi 

 

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.  It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to gentiles.

But, it would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.  And to clean up later.  I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

 

This scripture below is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.  There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

 

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where did they eat?

Were they to starve from Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

 

I do not think so.

 

The below scripture seems to referencing people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

 

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem to feed visitors on the Sabbath?  Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get a tongue-lashing for it?  They did, and it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

 

Certainly, packing a lunch is a solution.  But it may not be practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

 

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.  Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

 

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.  But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.  I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.  It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly. 

 

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.  Perhaps their hosts advised them to.  But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?  Where did they eat?

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31 

 ³¹ “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

 

Nehemiah 13:15-22 

 ¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”  ¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.   Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

 

Avi

 

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H
 

Shalom Roger!  It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has placed you in.  My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.  On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.  Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.  Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.  You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.  Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.  I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.  Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.  There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
 
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."




 

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas & Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.  This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true. 

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch. 

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of. 

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation? 

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest. 

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

 

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[avi5207]

Sorry about your friend and I understand. I just go by what the scriptures actually say. I don't follow extra biblical writings. Consider that for some reason none of the newborn males were circumcised until they entered the land. No circumcisions while Israel wandered in the wilderness and it is in Joshua we read about this fact. Anyway I see it the way I stated it and I'm sorry to have to disagree with you. It is very easy to see that Israel forgot certain aspects of the Law over time. You read of Israel straying from the Torah many times throughout her years in the land and during the first Temple period. What was it that got Judah 70 years exile in Babylon but forgetting to let the land rest every 7 years. To rely on our own abilities/strengths makes us unclean and our marriage a sham. We become like the 7 women in Isaiah 4:1.

Shalom,


Avi


On 1/17/2011 4:14 PM, Jim wrote:

Shalom Avi,

�

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.� I have been dealing with the death of a close Jewish friend and trying to do what I can there and here and just have not had time to get back with you in this verse of scripture and your understanding that the feast of tabernacles was not celebrated in booths during the time period from Joshua until Nehemiah.

�

I understand this statement to be saying something completely different.� Remember Joshua brought the Israelites into the land and when they celebrated the first Tabernacles in the land it was an especially joyous occasion.

�

Now we see them coming back into the land during this time period after their exile and this too is the first time they have celebrated in such a joyous manner since the first when Joshua brought them into the land.

�

This then ties these two occasion together in time with the coming into the land and as this scripture states it was a very great gladness.� This is what all I find in the commentary of my research.� Can we really believe that Samuel the prophet would not have been told by The HOLY ONE before David's time that they were violating such a part of this command?� I find nothing in all of the Judges about such, and here is another thought.� If we are going to rely only on the fact that booths are mentioned here and place the emphasis on that then shall we read the rest of the scriptures in this same way?� If so where does it say that they celebrated in booths in the days of Joshua?� For that matter where does it say that Nehemiah celebrated Atonement?� You see what I mean and I could give many such examples.

�

I see the emphasis on this verse as I do where the Hebrew etseem HaYom is translated 'selfsame day'.� It is linking two particular time periods that have a likeness in something that happened on as with etseem hayom the time or day on which these things happened.

�

Now the time period between Joshua entering the land in 2488 until Solomon was exactly 436 years.� This is computed by knowing in chronological information in Seder Olam to the Exodus at 2448 and their coming into the land 40 years later.� Then 1Kings 6:1 tells us it was 480 years after the Exodus to the 4th year of Solomon's reign when he began the building of the Temple.� 2448 plus 480 is 2928 and backing up 4 years gives us Solomon's first year as 2924.� From that point to the destruction of the First Temple can also be computed from Seder Olam and the scriptures as the Temple was destroyed in 3338 and this then would have been another 414 years.� From that point until the time of Nehemiah can also be computed by the scriptures to the year 3422 which is then the 70th year after the information given us by Ezekiel in his 40 chapter vss 1,2., and Nehemiah 1:1 which also indicates it is the 20th years he was in the palace of Shushan.

�

Shalom

Yaakov�

�

The total time then would have been 436+411+70= 920 years.

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Sure, here is the verse.

• And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. (Neh 8:17)

Joshua had ruled in Moses place nearly 800 to 1000 years earlier. The feast was celebrated in Solomon's time but it seems no one dwelt in booths.

• Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had shewed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people. (2Ch 7:8-10)

It was at the feast of Sukkote that Solomon dedicated the Temple.

Does this help?

Shalom,

Avi

On 1/15/2011 7:28 AM, Jim wrote:

Avi,

�

Can you please explain your comment?

"One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? "

Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.� To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.� Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.� Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

�
You bring up great points.� I�just look at it a bit different thats all.� Nehemiah was a prophet.��Prophets as you�know represent Hashem.� It is Hashem�who puts the words into the prophets mouth.� I understand that it is not�Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?� To�me�it was extremely important to�Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.��Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it�to someone�else.�As you know life comes first.� This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.� So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
�
�In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.� Why?� So we would be prepared�for the Shabbat.� I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.� Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.� Especially with family members�who are secular or don't believe like we do.� So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.� I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.� We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters.�
�
Shemot 16
�
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, �This is what the LORD has said: �Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.�� ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, �Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.�
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, �How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.� ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day.�
�
�
�
Just my two�shekels and what I believe.��Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.� You will be regular if you know what I mean.
�
Blessings�
�
Avi�

�

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.� It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to�gentiles.

But,�it�would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.� And to clean up later.� I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

�

This scripture below�is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.� There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

�

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where�did they eat?

Were they to starve from�Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

�

I do not think so.

�

The below scripture seems to referencing�people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off�of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

�

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem�to feed visitors on the Sabbath?� Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get�a tongue-lashing for it?� They did, and�it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

�

Certainly, packing�a lunch is a solution.� But it may not be�practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

�

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.� Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

�

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.� But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.� I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.� It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly.�

�

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.� Perhaps their hosts advised them to.� But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?� Where did they eat?

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31�

�³¹ �When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

�

Nehemiah 13:15-22�

�¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, �What is this wicked thing you are doing�desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn�t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.���¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, �Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.� From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.���Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

�

Avi

�

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H

�
Shalom Roger!� It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has�placed you in.� My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.� On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.� Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.� Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such�his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.� You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.� Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.� I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.� Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.� There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
�
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!� Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

�

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us�each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas�& Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.� This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true.�

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch.�

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of.�

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation?�

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest.�

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

�

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[Jim]

Shalom Avi,

Well you are right we are going to have to disagree on this one, but then I do not have to see everything the way you do in order to fellowship or be friendly with you.  Yes, Israel did stray many time and many times The HOLY ONE sent a prophet to tell them or even a Judge to tell them that they needed to repent.  He never waited 920 years to advise them that they were committing sin.

 

The reason for this interpretation is that someone though there ought to be another sentence that said, And their was very great gladness.  However, this is not what the Hebrew says and there is only one sentence here and not two.

 

Let us translated it literally and see what it really says and then we can read it as it is written and not as it may have been transliterated into the English.  And they make -- all the assembly of the captives of the captivity -- booths; for the sons of Israel had not done, from the days of Jeshua son of Nun, so to that day, and there is very great joy.

 

Now while I mentioned Seder Olam in my context it was only because it is in complete agreement with everything that the bible indicates to that point.  There is absolutely nothing extra biblical about the information or the interpretation I have give you.  I believe we should... prove all things and hold fast to that which is good...  So if I prove something from the scriptures that is also found in extra biblical material then does this make it extra biblical or scriptural?

 

There is no place in the scriptures that says that the children of Israel, even at Solomon's time kept the feast of Tabernacles, without build booths!  There is no place in the scriptures that said that Joshua and the children of Israel built booths to celebrate Tabernalces.  

 

The New Living Translation has the closest to the original Hebrew transliterated.  It says, So everyone who had returned from the captivity lived in these shelters during the festival, and they were all filled with great joy!  The Israelites had not celebrated like this since the days of Joshua son of Nun.

 

The Soncino commentary from the sages reads as follows: has not.....done so.  'This cannot mean that he observance of the festival had been neglected since the time of Joshua because its celebration is recorded in Ezra iii 4.  What is intended is that in the circumstances, the people threw themselves into the present celebration with exceptional joyousness and enthusiasm (Ralbag, Metsudath David).

 

Now Avi if I were to tell you that the time of Ezra came between Solomon and Nehemiah and that Ezra 3:4 says they kept the feast of booths would you be able to sustain your argument?  Well the fact is that the word Tabernacles translated in Ezra 3:4 is the same word translated booths in Nehemiah we could see that there is something else being said here other than speaking about dwelling in booths.  As a matter of fact if we wish to view this matter from a more certain view then when we go back to the time of Solomon in 2Chronicles 8:13 here is what the verse says.  Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of booths.

 

Now having said all of this and taken a different view than you on this matter.  I am hopeful that you do not feel this is an attack on you.  I am merely pointing out what I feel to be a wrong interpretation of this verse.  I can accept the fact that you disagree! 

 

Shalom and May your even Be Blessed!

Yaakov

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 5:05 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Sorry about your friend and I understand. I just go by what the scriptures actually say. I don't follow extra biblical writings. Consider that for some reason none of the newborn males were circumcised until they entered the land. No circumcisions while Israel wandered in the wilderness and it is in Joshua we read about this fact. Anyway I see it the way I stated it and I'm sorry to have to disagree with you. It is very easy to see that Israel forgot certain aspects of the Law over time. You read of Israel straying from the Torah many times throughout her years in the land and during the first Temple period. What was it that got Judah 70 years exile in Babylon but forgetting to let the land rest every 7 years. To rely on our own abilities/strengths makes us unclean and our marriage a sham. We become like the 7 women in Isaiah 4:1.

Shalom,


Avi


On 1/17/2011 4:14 PM, Jim wrote:

Shalom Avi,

 

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.  I have been dealing with the death of a close Jewish friend and trying to do what I can there and here and just have not had time to get back with you in this verse of scripture and your understanding that the feast of tabernacles was not celebrated in booths during the time period from Joshua until Nehemiah.

 

I understand this statement to be saying something completely different.  Remember Joshua brought the Israelites into the land and when they celebrated the first Tabernacles in the land it was an especially joyous occasion.

 

Now we see them coming back into the land during this time period after their exile and this too is the first time they have celebrated in such a joyous manner since the first when Joshua brought them into the land.

 

This then ties these two occasion together in time with the coming into the land and as this scripture states it was a very great gladness.  This is what all I find in the commentary of my research.  Can we really believe that Samuel the prophet would not have been told by The HOLY ONE before David's time that they were violating such a part of this command?  I find nothing in all of the Judges about such, and here is another thought.  If we are going to rely only on the fact that booths are mentioned here and place the emphasis on that then shall we read the rest of the scriptures in this same way?  If so where does it say that they celebrated in booths in the days of Joshua?  For that matter where does it say that Nehemiah celebrated Atonement?  You see what I mean and I could give many such examples.

 

I see the emphasis on this verse as I do where the Hebrew etseem HaYom is translated 'selfsame day'.  It is linking two particular time periods that have a likeness in something that happened on as with etseem hayom the time or day on which these things happened.

 

Now the time period between Joshua entering the land in 2488 until Solomon was exactly 436 years.  This is computed by knowing in chronological information in Seder Olam to the Exodus at 2448 and their coming into the land 40 years later.  Then 1Kings 6:1 tells us it was 480 years after the Exodus to the 4th year of Solomon's reign when he began the building of the Temple.  2448 plus 480 is 2928 and backing up 4 years gives us Solomon's first year as 2924.  From that point to the destruction of the First Temple can also be computed from Seder Olam and the scriptures as the Temple was destroyed in 3338 and this then would have been another 414 years.  From that point until the time of Nehemiah can also be computed by the scriptures to the year 3422 which is then the 70th year after the information given us by Ezekiel in his 40 chapter vss 1,2., and Nehemiah 1:1 which also indicates it is the 20th years he was in the palace of Shushan.

 

Shalom

Yaakov 

 

The total time then would have been 436+411+70= 920 years.

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Sure, here is the verse.

• And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. (Neh 8:17)

Joshua had ruled in Moses place nearly 800 to 1000 years earlier. The feast was celebrated in Solomon's time but it seems no one dwelt in booths.

• Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had shewed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people. (2Ch 7:8-10)

It was at the feast of Sukkote that Solomon dedicated the Temple.

Does this help?

Shalom,

Avi

On 1/15/2011 7:28 AM, Jim wrote:

Avi,

 

Can you please explain your comment?

"One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? "

Shalom

Yaakov

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:18 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Are you sure that Nehemiah was or should be considered a prophet? His as well as Ezra's accounts are historical not prophetic.  To be sure Nehemiah gives us an example of how he understood the observance of the Sabbath day was to be. Yet we know that there were priests ministering, babies being circumcised, sick people tended to, guards on watch and soldiers defending Israel on the Sabbath day. The sun does not stop shinning on the Sabbath day as it is the source of light and heat for the world. It is in fact essential to preserve life. So too are medical, police, fire and military people not to mention others that provide essential and even crucial services such as water, electric and phone. There are people in nursing homes that must be cared for etc.,. Work that is salvific in nature is permitted. One other thing I might point out is the fact that the feast of Sukkote had not been celebrated for nearly 800 years in all the land until Ezra and Nehemiah read it in the book of the law they found in the Temple ruins.Why was this not pointed out to King David or his son Solomon? Why in deed did not the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah make mention of this failure to observe Sukkote? We have Ezekiel mention the feast when he speaks of the holy days that will be observed during the millennial Temple period and Zechariah 14:16 clearly mentions the feast that even the Gentiles must celebrate or be punished with drought.  Yet the returnees of Judah are the ones to discover this major oversight concerning the proper and timely observance of Sukkote.  Something seems amiss here. What could explain this? A new topic for discussion perhaps?

Shalom,

Avi ben Avraham

On 1/14/2011 3:36 PM, Avigdor Levi Serrano wrote:

 
You bring up great points.  I just look at it a bit different thats all.  Nehemiah was a prophet.  Prophets as you know represent Hashem.  It is Hashem who puts the words into the prophets mouth.  I understand that it is not Torah but, is it not inspired scripture?  To me it was extremely important to Hashem that they should not buy or sell on the Shabbat.  Our we not buying on the Shabbat when we exchange money for goods at a restaurant? I understand that Y'shua's Talmidim picked grain on the Shabbat, but they did not sell it to someone else. As you know life comes first.  This is why Y'shua mentions David in the same breathe.  So if you are going to starve to death I would recommend buying some food on Shabbat.
 
 In this weeks portion Hashem tells us to double up on Yom shishi the 6th day.  Why?  So we would be prepared for the Shabbat.  I understand it can be difficult when you are surrounded by those who do not believe the way you do.  Keeping kosher and the Shabbat seem to be the biggest issues.  Especially with family members who are secular or don't believe like we do.  So the question is where do you as an individual drawn the line.  I can guarantee that all of our lines our different.  We just can't let our lines cross and cause division because of the lesser matters. 
 
Shemot 16
 
And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ²³ Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” ²⁴ So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. ²⁵ Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. ²⁶ Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
²⁷ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. ²⁸ And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? ²⁹ See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ³⁰ So the people rested on the seventh day. 
 
 
 

Just my two shekels and what I believe.  Buy double the amount of fruit on Yom shishi to eat on Shabbat.  You will be regular if you know what I mean.
 
Blessings 
 
Avi 

 

---

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:02:56 -0800
From: battzi...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

When I was in Jerusalem, or Nehemiah?

I don't recall.  It seems one place I ate in Jerusalem did the cooking that day, but I believe it belonged to gentiles.

But, it would certainly be easy enough to offer things not cooked.  And to clean up later.  I think that's what my little hotel did for breakfast.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: "iserv...@mac.com" <iserv...@mac.com>
To: "jerusale...@googlegroups.com" <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:56:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

I wonder whether those restaurants which did business on Shabbat also cooked on Shabbat?

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-01-14, at 1:38 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thoughts about this:

 

This scripture below is not Torah: clearly, it is upholding Torah, but this is a prophet speaking, making a ruling on halacha for the city of Jerusalem, based on Torah.  There is no explicit new command being given in these scriptures, but rulings on the commands.

The commands that seem to be ruled over are these:

"Bear no burden on the Sabbath".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".

"Do no regular work on the Sabbath".

 

Were there restaurants in the city?

Were there travellers in the city, who did NOT come to buy and sell goods?

Where did they eat?

Were they to starve from Erev Shabbat until Shabbat was over?

Would the Torah be that cruel to "strangers within the gates?"

 

I do not think so.

 

The below scripture seems to referencing people who were more concerned about making a PROFIT off of the wares of the sellers.

Is it "unholy" to EAT on the Sabbath?

 

Is it merciful of Jews in Jerusalem to feed visitors on the Sabbath?  Or is it breaking torah to alleviate the temporal suffering of her guests?

Did not Messiah's Talmidim pick grain on the Sabbath, and get a tongue-lashing for it?  They did, and it was because of the Pharisees' RULING, on not the command itself.

 

Certainly, packing a lunch is a solution.  But it may not be practical, having to leave it in a hot car for three hours [I'm in Texas].

 

When I was in Jerusalem as a guest, I was most thankful to HaShem for the few restaurants open on the Sabbath.  Were it not for them, I would have starved on the day I am supposed to be resting and enjoying HaShem.

 

I am not advocating any doctrine, nor trying to lead someone into error, certainly.  But I do think that the Sabbath is supposed to be a "Delight", and not a burden.  I'm not sure the Nehemiah scripture applies to this situation.  It is about conducting commerce for profit, clearly. 

 

I suppose guests in Jerusalem at the time of Nehemiah might have been savvy enough to 'stock up' before Shabbat.  Perhaps their hosts advised them to.  But, what if they just arrived, and were allowed in the gates because they were NOT buyers or sellers?  Where did they eat?

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Avigdor Levi Serrano <sepha...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Nehemiah 10:31 

 ³¹ “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.

 

Nehemiah 13:15-22 

 ¹⁵ In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. ¹⁶ People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. ¹⁷ I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? ¹⁸ Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”  ¹⁹ When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. ²⁰ Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. ²¹ But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. ²² Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.   Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

Food for thought.

 

Avi

 

---

From: xinu...@hotmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:58:58 -0600

B"H
 

Shalom Roger!  It is a very difficult place to be, to be a Torah Observant follower of Yeshua, since neither the Christian or "non-Messianic" Jewish environments are very welcoming, so you do the best that you can given the time and place that HaShem, blessed is He, has placed you in.  My own opinion is that we should not go to restaraunts on Shabbat, because it requires engaging in commerce, specifically, buying food and someone's service to deliver that food, so we decline invitations to go out to eat on Shabbat.  On the other hand, our congregation is a good half hour drive away, so we end up driving on Shabbat.  Our congregation doesn't have a store, but does sell items from time to time; we choose not to buy the items offered.  Our congregation is 80% goy, but we have a Cohen for a rabbi, and as such his primary purpose is to introduce basic Torah to goyim, as opposed to having a fully rabbinicly observant congregation.  You have to make do with what is available to you, ensuring that you focus on your own observance, rather than that of others.  Some might say, "well, go find an Orthodox congregation or schul" but then we would be put in the position of having to hide our faith in Yeshua, which for me is not an option, because if I will not acknowledge him before man, he will not acknowledge me before our Holy Creator, blessed is He forever.  I think the advice to pack a lunch and drive yourself is probably the best choice to help observe Torah to the fullest extent possible.  Also, ask yourself why a mostly Jewish Messianic congregation appears to be stand-offish.  There may be a good reason, given the treatment that Messianic Jews get from both Christians and "non-Messianic" Jews.
 
Blessings in Yeshua our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com/
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."




 

---

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?
From: firecra...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:42:24 -0500

Thanks for your reply. I am not taking what Mr. Armstrong or anyone else said as the only truth. That is why I am here asking questions. I have so much to learn. Mr. Armstrong thought it was OK to eat in a restaurant because you are not the one causing people to work. They are there anyway. I'm not sure I agree with that and that is why I am asking. The Messianic Church in town is mostly Jewish with just a few Gentiles. We went for about six weeks and only a few people spoke to us. At Oneg there were about 10 people at each table and no one spoke to us each week. They wouldn't even look at us. I wrote an EMail to the Rabbi asking about the merchandise store and he didn't answer me. I was in the "christian" church for 25 years, but I wandered around because I knew so much was wrong. About 1 year ago I read a book called the Great Falling Away by Don Esposito(coyhwh.com). It convicted me concerning the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating, Christmas & Easter and becoming Torah observant in general. I am more comfortable at UCG because they believe in the Sabbath, the feasts, kosher eating and are against Christmas & Easter and are non trinitarian. They don't come at these things from a Jewish perspective though. Being a Gentile that desires Torah is difficult. Most of my former 'christian' friends have turned againmst me. My family has turned against me. I don't know where to go to get pure teachings. I find Messianics differ almost as much as 'christians'.  This board is very helpful to me. I cannot go back and I must move forward in my quest for truth. I am not a follwerer of any man. I want to check every issue out and find out what others believe and why. Shalom! Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: P Malachi Bond <pmalac...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusalemcouncil <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

It is still the Sabbath. You are in essence having people work on the Sabbath (those at the restaurant) and paying for services rendered. I know nothing of the Worldwide Church of G-d or its spin-offs, but I would use extreme caution in placing all my eggs in one basket. Just because Armstrong said it... doesn't make it Gospel Truth. Armstrong is wrong. Why would it be ok "occasionally"? If it's a sin/wrong, wouldn't it be a sin/wrong to do it always? I haven't heard of this bunch laying tefillin, praying the set-time prayers, etc. I believe they strive to keep the Torah as best as they understand it from a Christian perspective, but do not let the notion of their "strictness" sway you into believing it's true. 

If you are going to continue going to this place, I would encourage you/your family to either drive yourself or pack a lunch. 

Can you tell us more about the Messianic place in town? Yes, they should not be selling items on the Sabbath either. However, Torah-obedience may not be their strong suit or where they are. Many people believe they are "keeping Torah", when in actuality they are not. However, they have built their own illusion. If you do less than me, you're backslidden. If you do more than me, you're legalistic. It's the pride/ego crap that we have to get rid of. 

Why do you say they are not too welcoming of non-Jews? Have you voiced this to the leadership of the place? Did you interact with simply an overzealous person looking for another token Jew and not an actual representative of the congregation? 

What kind of Traditional Christian Tradition are you wanting to stay away from? Using the Protestant Bible? Belief in the Trinity? Orthodox or Protestant Christmas/Easter? Liturgy? What specifically.

Can you learn from both places? Possibly. Absorb what is useful, discard the rest. 

If I may ask, what are your beliefs? What makes you want to go to one place and not another? You said you line up more with the Armstrong branch off, why? What specifically?

 

Lehitraot,
P. Malachi Bond

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:25:50 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Restaurants on the Sabbath?

Is the restaurant a certified kosher restaurant?

After havdalah, you can engage in any manner of malacha, including going to a restaurant. This is the trend in Israel, where after havdalah the discoteques open up.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, <firecra...@aol.com> wrote:

What are your views on eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath after service? I am still learning. I know financial transactions are discouraged. We have been visiting the United church of God in Orlando 50 miles away. We have joined a carpool that eats at a restaurant on the way home about 1 hour before the Sabbath ends. They say that Herbert W. Armstrong said eating at a restaurant occasionaly was allowed. The United Church of God is a spinoff from the Worldwide Church of God that Mr. Armstrong founded. They believe in the Sabbath, the feasts and kosher eating, They are usually quite strict on obedience to the law. We have a Messianic congregation in town, but they have a store selling merchandise on the Sabbath and they do not welcome non-Jews very much. I want to get it right and welcome comments. It is difficult being a non-Jew that desires to obey the law. There is a 7th day Babptist church in town. They believe in the Sabbath, but not the feasts or eating kosher. Some of them celebrate Christmas. The United Church of God is the closest to my beliefs. I would prefer a Messianic congregation that welcomes non-Jews and doesn't have some of the traditional 'christian' traditions. I don't know of one around here. Shalom! Roger
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[YAS2015]

I know of at least one Orthodox Schul in Penn. They will not allow any Goy to go up to the Bema to read the scripture and the women sit in the back.

 

Let me know what town you live in Florida and I will attempt to locate an Orthodox Schul for you.

 

Laylah Tov,

Yacov