2cor 12
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Michael
May 3, 2011, 12:35:44 PM5/3/11
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Shalom,
I'm curious if anyone has any ideas facts background info or "mystical" knowledge about any of the topics I 2corinthians 12.
Specifically though the "third level of heaven"
And the thorn or messenger of the adversary.
I'm familiar with the kabbalistic ideas of the 4 worlds, but I'm getting different reports of how many "levels of heaven" there are (7-10).
Todah
Michael
Kosta Guyer
May 4, 2011, 3:26:37 AM5/4/11
to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Shalom Michael,
Here is a copy of Adam Clarks Commentry I hope this helps
Kosta
2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[I knew a man in Christ] I knew a Christian, or a Christian man; for to such alone God now revealed himself, for vision and prophecy had been shut up from the Jews.
[Fourteen years ago] On what occasion or in what place this transaction took place we cannot tell; there are many conjectures among learned men concerning it, but of what utility can they be when everything is so palpably uncertain? Allowing this epistle to have been written some time in the year 57, fourteen years counted backward will lead this transaction to the year 42 or 43, which was about the time that Barnabas brought Paul from Tarsus to Antioch, Acts 11:25-26, and when he and Paul were sent by the church of Antioch with alms to the poor Christians at Jerusalem. It is very possible that, on this journey, or while in Jerusalem, he had this vision, which was intended to be the means of establishing him in the faith, and supporting him in the many trials and difficulties through which he was to pass. This vision the apostle had kept secret for fourteen years.
[Whether in the body I cannot tell] That the apostle was in an ecstasy or trance, something like that of Peter, Acts 10:9, etc., there is reason to believe; but we know that being carried literally into heaven was possible to the Almighty. But as he could not decide himself, it would be ridiculous in us to attempt it.
[Caught up to the third heaven.] He appeared to have been carried up to this place; but whether bodily he could not tell, or whether the spirit were not separated for the time, and taken up to the third heaven, he could not tell.
The third heaven-The Jews talk of seven heavens, and Mohammed has received the same from them; but these are not only fabulous but absurd. I shall enumerate those of the Jews.
1. The VELUM, or curtain, weeluwm-"Which in the morning is folded up, and in the evening stretched out." Isa 40:22: He stretcheth out the heavens as a CURTAIN, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
2. The firmament, or EXPANSE, raqiya`-"In which the sun, moon, stars, and constellations are fixed." Gen 1:17: And God placed them in the FIRMAMENT of heaven.
3. The CLOUDS, or AETHER, shªchaaqiym-"Where the mill-stones are which grind the manna for the righteous." Ps 78:23, etc.: Though he had commanded the CLOUDS from above, and opened the doors of heaven, and had rained down manna, etc.
4. The HABITATION, zebuwl-"Where Jerusalem, and the temple, and the altar, were constructed; and where Michael the great prince stands and offers sacrifices." 1 Kings 8:13: I have surely built thee a HOUSE To DWELL IN, a settled place for thee to abide in forever. "But where is heaven so called?" Ans. In Isa 63:15: Look down from HEAVEN, and behold from the HABITATION, mizbuwl, of thy holiness.
5. The DWELLING-PLACE, ma`own-"Where the troops of angels sing throughout the night, but are silent in the day time, because of the glory of the Israelites." Ps 42:8: The Lord will command his loving-kindness in the day time, and in the night his song shall be with me. "But how is it proved that this means heaven?" Ans. From Deut 26:15: Look down from thy holy habitation, mim`own, the DWELLING-PLACE of thy holiness; and from heaven, hashamayim, and bless thy people Israel.
6. The FIXED RESIDENCE, mªkown-"Where are the treasures of snow and hail, the repository of noxious dews, of drops, and whirlwinds; the grotto of exhalations," etc. "But where are the heavens thus denominated?" Ans. In 1 Kings 8:39,49, etc.: Then hear thou in HEAVEN thy DWELLING-PLACE, mªkown shibtekaa, thy FIXED RESIDENCE.
7. The ARABOTH, 'arbowt-"Where are justice, judgment, mercy, the treasures of life; peace and blessedness, the souls of the righteous, the souls and spirits which are reserved for the bodies yet to be formed, and the dew by which God is to vivify the dead? Psa. 89:14; Isa. 59:17; Psa. 36:9; Judg. 6:24; Psa. 24:4; 1 Sam. 25:29; Isa. 57:20; Psa. 67:9 : All of which are termed Araboth, Ps 68:4. Extol him who rideth on the heavens, ba ARABOTH, by his name Jah.
All this is sufficiently unphilosophical, and in several cases ridiculous.
In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by raqiya`, the firmament or expansion, Gen 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Gen 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by raqiya` hashamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the divine glory, probably expressed by the words shemeey hashamayim, the heavens of heavens. But on these subjects the Scripture affords us but little light; and on this distinction the reader is not desired to rely.
Much more may be seen in Schoettgen, who has exhausted the subject; and who has shown that ascending to heaven, or being caught up to heaven, is a form of speech among the Jewish writers to express the highest degrees of inspiration. They often say of Moses that he ascended on high, ascended on the firmament, ascended to heaven; where it is evident they mean only by it that he was favoured with the nearest intimacy with God, and the highiest revelations relative to his will, etc. If we may understand Paul thus, it will remove much of the difficulty from this place; and perhaps the unspeakable words 2 Cor 12:4, are thus to be understood. He had the most sublime communications from God, such as would be improper to mention, though it is very likely that we have the substance of these in his epistles. Indeed, the two epistles before us seem, in many places, to be the effect of most extraordinary revelations.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)
> Subject: [JC] 2cor 12
> From: Isaia...@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:35:44 -0700
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Here is a copy of Adam Clarks Commentry I hope this helps
Kosta
2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[I knew a man in Christ] I knew a Christian, or a Christian man; for to such alone God now revealed himself, for vision and prophecy had been shut up from the Jews.
[Fourteen years ago] On what occasion or in what place this transaction took place we cannot tell; there are many conjectures among learned men concerning it, but of what utility can they be when everything is so palpably uncertain? Allowing this epistle to have been written some time in the year 57, fourteen years counted backward will lead this transaction to the year 42 or 43, which was about the time that Barnabas brought Paul from Tarsus to Antioch, Acts 11:25-26, and when he and Paul were sent by the church of Antioch with alms to the poor Christians at Jerusalem. It is very possible that, on this journey, or while in Jerusalem, he had this vision, which was intended to be the means of establishing him in the faith, and supporting him in the many trials and difficulties through which he was to pass. This vision the apostle had kept secret for fourteen years.
[Whether in the body I cannot tell] That the apostle was in an ecstasy or trance, something like that of Peter, Acts 10:9, etc., there is reason to believe; but we know that being carried literally into heaven was possible to the Almighty. But as he could not decide himself, it would be ridiculous in us to attempt it.
[Caught up to the third heaven.] He appeared to have been carried up to this place; but whether bodily he could not tell, or whether the spirit were not separated for the time, and taken up to the third heaven, he could not tell.
The third heaven-The Jews talk of seven heavens, and Mohammed has received the same from them; but these are not only fabulous but absurd. I shall enumerate those of the Jews.
1. The VELUM, or curtain, weeluwm-"Which in the morning is folded up, and in the evening stretched out." Isa 40:22: He stretcheth out the heavens as a CURTAIN, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
2. The firmament, or EXPANSE, raqiya`-"In which the sun, moon, stars, and constellations are fixed." Gen 1:17: And God placed them in the FIRMAMENT of heaven.
3. The CLOUDS, or AETHER, shªchaaqiym-"Where the mill-stones are which grind the manna for the righteous." Ps 78:23, etc.: Though he had commanded the CLOUDS from above, and opened the doors of heaven, and had rained down manna, etc.
4. The HABITATION, zebuwl-"Where Jerusalem, and the temple, and the altar, were constructed; and where Michael the great prince stands and offers sacrifices." 1 Kings 8:13: I have surely built thee a HOUSE To DWELL IN, a settled place for thee to abide in forever. "But where is heaven so called?" Ans. In Isa 63:15: Look down from HEAVEN, and behold from the HABITATION, mizbuwl, of thy holiness.
5. The DWELLING-PLACE, ma`own-"Where the troops of angels sing throughout the night, but are silent in the day time, because of the glory of the Israelites." Ps 42:8: The Lord will command his loving-kindness in the day time, and in the night his song shall be with me. "But how is it proved that this means heaven?" Ans. From Deut 26:15: Look down from thy holy habitation, mim`own, the DWELLING-PLACE of thy holiness; and from heaven, hashamayim, and bless thy people Israel.
6. The FIXED RESIDENCE, mªkown-"Where are the treasures of snow and hail, the repository of noxious dews, of drops, and whirlwinds; the grotto of exhalations," etc. "But where are the heavens thus denominated?" Ans. In 1 Kings 8:39,49, etc.: Then hear thou in HEAVEN thy DWELLING-PLACE, mªkown shibtekaa, thy FIXED RESIDENCE.
7. The ARABOTH, 'arbowt-"Where are justice, judgment, mercy, the treasures of life; peace and blessedness, the souls of the righteous, the souls and spirits which are reserved for the bodies yet to be formed, and the dew by which God is to vivify the dead? Psa. 89:14; Isa. 59:17; Psa. 36:9; Judg. 6:24; Psa. 24:4; 1 Sam. 25:29; Isa. 57:20; Psa. 67:9 : All of which are termed Araboth, Ps 68:4. Extol him who rideth on the heavens, ba ARABOTH, by his name Jah.
All this is sufficiently unphilosophical, and in several cases ridiculous.
In the sacred writings three heavens only are mentioned. The first is the atmosphere, what appears to be intended by raqiya`, the firmament or expansion, Gen 1:6. The second, the starry heaven; where are the sun, moon, planets, and stars; but these two are often expressed under the one term shamayim, the two heavens, or expansions, and in Gen 1:17, they appear to be both expressed by raqiya` hashamayim, the firmament of heaven. And, thirdly, the place of the blessed, or the throne of the divine glory, probably expressed by the words shemeey hashamayim, the heavens of heavens. But on these subjects the Scripture affords us but little light; and on this distinction the reader is not desired to rely.
Much more may be seen in Schoettgen, who has exhausted the subject; and who has shown that ascending to heaven, or being caught up to heaven, is a form of speech among the Jewish writers to express the highest degrees of inspiration. They often say of Moses that he ascended on high, ascended on the firmament, ascended to heaven; where it is evident they mean only by it that he was favoured with the nearest intimacy with God, and the highiest revelations relative to his will, etc. If we may understand Paul thus, it will remove much of the difficulty from this place; and perhaps the unspeakable words 2 Cor 12:4, are thus to be understood. He had the most sublime communications from God, such as would be improper to mention, though it is very likely that we have the substance of these in his epistles. Indeed, the two epistles before us seem, in many places, to be the effect of most extraordinary revelations.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)
> Subject: [JC] 2cor 12
> From: Isaia...@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:35:44 -0700
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
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XuS Casal
May 4, 2011, 4:14:34 AM5/4/11
to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
One passage in Zohar says:
"the question is: not all mankind comes from Adam?
The truth is that Adam [human] is only found in the highest earth called: Tevel [תבל], and is linked to the higher firmament and the supreme name. Hence human is superior to all other creatures.
For, as there is a extremely high firmament high above that is the Throne of the Holy One, Blesses is He, so the king of everything is in this Tevel, that is, the human... ...In the book of the Sage Rav Hamnuna it is said tha the whole world is orbed like a balloon, so that some [people] are above, some are below, and the strange appearance of certain races are due to the nature of the air.. ..There is also a part of the World where there is light when the opposite part is dark, so that some have night while others have day.. ..Confirmed by the Scripture that says: 'I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works; and that my soul knoweth right well' [Psal 139:14], and again: 'O Adonai, how manifold are your works!' [Psal 104:24].
This mistery that there are seven earths wrapping each other, was entrusted to the teachers of wisdom, the Kabbalists"
Zohar, Vayikra, page 10.
In this passage, what i see is the mention of seven earths wrapping each other, and those are called: the whole world, and mankind exists only in haTevel. And all of this information is compared to the firmament, as if the firmament also has layers.
Originally it is said: 'Elohim created heaven and the earth' (Gn 1:1), as if there's only one heaven.
But then I rememeber the words of Nehemiah: "You have made heaven [haShamayim], the heaven of heavens [shemei haShamayim], with all their host" [Neh 9:6]
and the words of Solomoh: "behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You" [1K 8:27].
As is stated in Torah: "unto HaShem your Elohim belongs the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, also the earth" [Dt 10:14]
Talmud Hagigah 12b teaches from here: there's 2 firmaments: (1) heavens and (2) the heaven of heavens.
Maimonides taught that the Sages counted the firmaments (in plural) as one. He said one heaven has 9 layers [referring the planets of the milky way], because all of them can be seen as if they were in the same sphere [the Earth]. Based on Dt 4:19 that says:
'you lift up your eyes to the heaven, and see the sun and the moon and the stars; all the hosts of heaven'.
Zohar says again: "God created seven heavens above and seven earths below, seven oceans, seven rivers, seven days, seven weeks, seven years, seven and sevenfold, and the seven thousands of the Earth".
Does the writer believe in a literal seven heavens or is a metaphorical concept? The answer is in the same verse. The verse says: God created seven years. I'm sure the writter lived more than that when he wrote the book. So he's trying to explain something deeper than a physical seventh Heaven. Is something spiritual, the layers of perfection. God made everything perfect. We see only one layer and we see things imperfect, but God sees the whole picture. In God eyes, the creation is perfect. That's what the Zohar meant.
The Psalm says: 'HaShem has established His throne in the heavens; and His kingdom rules over all.. ..Praise HaShem, all of His hosts.. ..everywhere in His dominion' [Psal 103:19-22]
So that's the extremly high firmament high above mentioned by the Zohar, the so called Throne of God.
When we read then the "third heaven" mentioned by Paul, we should understand some principles:
1- God dwells in the light which no man can approach unto [1Ti 6:16].
2- Paul calls that place: paradise (i.e gan Edén) [2Co 12:4].
3- Paul had a vision, he experimented a mystical trance, he had a revelation [2Co 12:1]
As is stated in Torah: 'if there be a prophet among you, I HaShem do reveal to him in a vision, I do speak with him in dreams'. [Nm 12:6]
So, depending of your Torah knowledge, you'll find more or less [spiritual] layers in the Heavens and in the Earth, but at the end, there's only one Heaven, and one Earth [Gn 1:1].
Shalom
-XuS-
"the question is: not all mankind comes from Adam?
The truth is that Adam [human] is only found in the highest earth called: Tevel [תבל], and is linked to the higher firmament and the supreme name. Hence human is superior to all other creatures.
For, as there is a extremely high firmament high above that is the Throne of the Holy One, Blesses is He, so the king of everything is in this Tevel, that is, the human... ...In the book of the Sage Rav Hamnuna it is said tha the whole world is orbed like a balloon, so that some [people] are above, some are below, and the strange appearance of certain races are due to the nature of the air.. ..There is also a part of the World where there is light when the opposite part is dark, so that some have night while others have day.. ..Confirmed by the Scripture that says: 'I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works; and that my soul knoweth right well' [Psal 139:14], and again: 'O Adonai, how manifold are your works!' [Psal 104:24].
This mistery that there are seven earths wrapping each other, was entrusted to the teachers of wisdom, the Kabbalists"
Zohar, Vayikra, page 10.
In this passage, what i see is the mention of seven earths wrapping each other, and those are called: the whole world, and mankind exists only in haTevel. And all of this information is compared to the firmament, as if the firmament also has layers.
Originally it is said: 'Elohim created heaven and the earth' (Gn 1:1), as if there's only one heaven.
But then I rememeber the words of Nehemiah: "You have made heaven [haShamayim], the heaven of heavens [shemei haShamayim], with all their host" [Neh 9:6]
and the words of Solomoh: "behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You" [1K 8:27].
As is stated in Torah: "unto HaShem your Elohim belongs the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, also the earth" [Dt 10:14]
Talmud Hagigah 12b teaches from here: there's 2 firmaments: (1) heavens and (2) the heaven of heavens.
Maimonides taught that the Sages counted the firmaments (in plural) as one. He said one heaven has 9 layers [referring the planets of the milky way], because all of them can be seen as if they were in the same sphere [the Earth]. Based on Dt 4:19 that says:
'you lift up your eyes to the heaven, and see the sun and the moon and the stars; all the hosts of heaven'.
Zohar says again: "God created seven heavens above and seven earths below, seven oceans, seven rivers, seven days, seven weeks, seven years, seven and sevenfold, and the seven thousands of the Earth".
Does the writer believe in a literal seven heavens or is a metaphorical concept? The answer is in the same verse. The verse says: God created seven years. I'm sure the writter lived more than that when he wrote the book. So he's trying to explain something deeper than a physical seventh Heaven. Is something spiritual, the layers of perfection. God made everything perfect. We see only one layer and we see things imperfect, but God sees the whole picture. In God eyes, the creation is perfect. That's what the Zohar meant.
The Psalm says: 'HaShem has established His throne in the heavens; and His kingdom rules over all.. ..Praise HaShem, all of His hosts.. ..everywhere in His dominion' [Psal 103:19-22]
So that's the extremly high firmament high above mentioned by the Zohar, the so called Throne of God.
When we read then the "third heaven" mentioned by Paul, we should understand some principles:
1- God dwells in the light which no man can approach unto [1Ti 6:16].
2- Paul calls that place: paradise (i.e gan Edén) [2Co 12:4].
3- Paul had a vision, he experimented a mystical trance, he had a revelation [2Co 12:1]
As is stated in Torah: 'if there be a prophet among you, I HaShem do reveal to him in a vision, I do speak with him in dreams'. [Nm 12:6]
So, depending of your Torah knowledge, you'll find more or less [spiritual] layers in the Heavens and in the Earth, but at the end, there's only one Heaven, and one Earth [Gn 1:1].
Shalom
-XuS-
> Subject: [JC] 2cor 12
> From: Isaia...@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:35:44 -0700
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
>
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