Literally three days and three nights?

[Bryce Henderson]

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?

Thanks,

brYce

[julius batalla]

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

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[Israel]

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

[avi5207]

Those are Yeshua's own words so if you believe Him then you must believe
He was in the ground three whole days and three whole nights.

Shalom,

Avi

[avi5207]

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[Israel]

Avi,

Lev 15:27

 ²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

 ²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional  hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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Shalom

[Bryce Henderson]

Thank you! I was wondering how to reconcile that... the counting of the niddah makes perfect sense.

[Yoseph ben Gershon]

Lev 7:11-18 regarding the peace offering makes it very clear that any part of a day is a day and a night when counting.  Niddah is also the same way.  It is not counted by 24 hour segments.  Kashrut of dishware says that it will be clean at evening regardless of when during the day it was kashered.  etc.

 

3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate.  Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon.  That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat.  The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance.  Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy.  It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

Thursday death would have had the Messiah rising a day after the barley was harvested and presented as the first fruits offering in the Temple. 

 

Look at Joshua 5:10-11.  They partook of newly harvested grain on the 16th of Nissan, First fruits.

 

You will see that Pesach is on the 14th Nissan.  Messiah died in the afternoon of 14th Nissan.  Was in the grave before sunset and rose on 16th Nissan, which is first fruits.  His resurrection was about 1 1/2 hours after sunset Saturday night.  This is when the priests were harvesting the barley for the morning offering.  It is when the first fruits were brought forth from the earth.

When you look at the Exodus you see we were brought out of Mitsrayim at night.  The Messiah had to rise at night as He redeems us from darkness and presents us before the Father in the light. 

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

[Bryce Henderson]

Thanks again... I knew you had a Torah-based reason for teaching these things in your writings. Thanks for sharing.

[Daniel Crouch]

I must disagree.

The verses in Leviticus do not have the same phraseology as does Messiah's own prediction about His time in the grave.

He said Himself that He would be "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" in the belly of the earth, and the text He linked it to was not VaYikra 7 or VaYikra 15, or Yehoshua 5, but Yonah 2:1.

Not only that, but He repeats this phrase twice.  "Just as Yonah was in the belly of the great fish "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot", so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot".  He is being very, very specific, and giving us the interpretive reference very specifically.  Using any other scripture to interpret this prophecy is not responsible, especially if not thinking/referencing Yonah at all.

Yonah does not give us ANY frame of reference in regard to time, as to when boarded the ship, or when he was thrown into the sea, or when he was released, except this phrase, which Messiah has now quoted twice.  The only other place where this phrase is used is in 1 Sam 30, and there is nothing in that text that gives us leeway to shorten its duration.

It is unlikely to me that Messiah would be this very direct, quote the interpretive scripture directly, only to leave it to human logic to reason it away and shorten the duration of it.  "Day" and "Night" are very clearly understood, even by a child, without having to do mental gymnastics, especially where it is so very, very plainly spoken and repeated.

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:03:21 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

[Israel]

R. Daniel,

If three literal days and nights, how then can Mashiach be like the lambs slaughtered on Nisan 14, and rise on Nisan 16, Bikkurim? You have to give up one end or the other to make your understanding fit.

Shalom,

Israel

[Daniel Crouch]

Bikkurim is always on the first day of the week, after the regular Sabbath.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:30:09 PM

[Daniel Crouch]

יא  וְהֵנִיף אֶת-הָעֹמֶר לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, לִרְצֹנְכֶם; מִמָּחֳרַת, הַשַּׁבָּת, יְנִיפֶנּוּ, הַכֹּהֵן.

11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you; on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

 

After THE Sabbath.

 

This cannot be the rest day of Pesach.  It's too specific.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:30:09 PM

[Yoseph ben Gershon]

Jonah is held accountable to the Torah.  Find it first in Torah, then exegetic Jonah.

you are correct when you say that it does not require mental gymnastics to get to the understanding.  It does however require a Jewish understanding of the phraseology and how it was used in the day, not a Western time clock.  Judaism understood this to be any part of a day is a day and a night.  Its use in Jewish writings contemporary to Yeshua make this evident.

Bikkurim is the first day of the week for the Sadducees not the Pharisees or the Temple service.  The Temple service and Pharisees put it on the 16th.  That is why so much was written about when the 16th falls on a Shabbat, if they are to harvest the barley or not.  The conclusion was, yes we harvest, even on a Shabbat. 

The passage you reference says Shabbat which could be either.  It was understood and applied as festival Shabbat in the days of Yeshua in the Temple.  He worshiped in the Temple and synagogues accordingly.  He also died and rose accordingly.  He did not do it according to some other reckoning which no one would have recognized or seen.  He did it so Judaism as a whole would see.  Therefore, as He was perfect and did according to the Temple service throughout His life and in His death, then the Pharisaic reckoning must have been correct.  Therefore, we should do accordingly and not according to the Sadducee reckoning.

 

Shalom

[Daniel Crouch]

With great respect to you all, I disagree that just because the Pharisees did it a certain way, that they should then be followed.

A big portion of the Pharisees would not let gentiles participate in Synagogue worship. 

A big portion of the Pharisees did not recognize Messiah.  You stated that He did it so "Judaism AS A WHOLE WOULD SEE".

As I Jew, I personally wish they had seen.  But, AS A WHOLE, with PHARISEES as leaders, they did not, and STILL do not.

Who's to say the Saducees were not right about something?  Just because they rejected the notion of resurrection, does not mean they were not right on some issues. 

The spotting of "night" and "day" is not a "western timeclock".  I've been in the middle east AND in the far east, and the sun and the moon operate the same on that side of the world as they do here in the west.  Day and Night are easily discerned.

Just because "the passage [I] reference says Shabbat which COULD be either", does that mean that I must then pick the less accurate interpretation simply to follow Pharisees?

The Jewish community is STILL having trouble "recognizing" Messiah, and it is likely due, in large part, to the Phariseeical interpretations of Torah which take entirely too much liberty with the language of it.

The Temple service they offered went on for 40 years without acknowledgement/acceptance of HaShem!  Precisely because they CHANGED THE FEASTS!

AND THE TORAH.  Yeshua kept His feast on the 14th, clearly, because He was crucified BEFORE the Pesach of the Pharisees! Which was DIFFERENT FROM/LATER THAN His!

The Pharisees did not keep Pesach bein ha'erabayim on the fourteenth of the first month, as the Torah plainly instructs.  They moved it to the 15th!  Instead of eating Matzah for seven days, as plainly instructed, they eat it for eight.

While there is great merit in the writings of the Jews, including the Pharisees, it is NOT divinely inspired, and must be treated as such.

Clearly, the Pharisees were in MUCH ERROR in THEIR interpretations of Torah, which is what Messiah Yeshua chided them for.  I choose to follow Messiah and HIS texts, and MUST consider what the "leaven" of the Pharisees really is, and why He put a stop to PHARISEE's Temple worship! 

Again, with great respect I tender these thoughts.  I do not wish to engender any kind of ill will.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:49:21 PM

[Daniel Crouch]

In regard to "finding it first in Torah", the phrase "Shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" is not in Torah.  Are you really asserting that every linguistic mechanism of Hebrew must be found in torah?

I do understand your sentiment, but I think you're getting a little too large with it here.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:49:21 PM

[Daniel Crouch]

In looking at the Yehoshua text, there is no mention of omer reysheet/firstfruits, but of the "produce" of the land.

They were not harvesting something they planted here, but eating of what the land brought forth.  There is nothing in the text that tells us this is the 16th of the first month, but since they held their Pesach on the 14th, they must have eaten of the "avoor" on the 15th, the day after the Pesach, which is on the 14th.  Best I can tell, this was some kind of grain, but not specifically barley, which the omer is supposed to be, right?  I think it's reaching to conclude that this was the 16th of the first month...and a further reach to say it was bikkurim.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:30:09 PM

[avi5207]

I don't buy it Israel. A day is 24 hours as God calls it. If you are to wait 7 days then you wait 7 full 24 hour days. The reason a person has to wait until the evening is simple. That's when a new 24 hour day starts plain and simple. I'm not adding anything to the Torah but the rabbis sure do as well as take away. The lake of fire will most likely be so full of the self righteous and religious there will scarcely be room for any other sinners. At the least most will be least in the kingdom of God.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 10:26 AM, Israel wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

�²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

�²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional� hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't buy it Israel. A day is 24 hours as God calls it. If you are to wait 7 days then you wait 7 full 24 hour days. The reason a person has to wait until the evening is simple. That's when a new 24 hour day starts plain and simple. I'm not adding anything to the Torah but the rabbis sure do as well as take away. The lake of fire will most likely be so full of the self righteous and religious there will scarcely be room for any other sinners. At the least most will be least in the kingdom of God.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 10:26 AM, Israel wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

 ²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

 ²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional  hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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Shalom

[Israel]

It doesn't matter if the argument was held first by the Pharisees or Saducees. What matters is the argument being made itself.

"HaShabbat" is in context of Pesach. "the day after the sabbath" should instead be written "on the first day unto (the next) Sabbath." Why is it written "after the Sabbath" and not also qualified with "on the first day of the week" or some other indication? Because it is not talking about the weekly Shabbat, for there is a "Sabbath" in context that is not right before Yom Rishon and that "Sabbath" can only be Pesach and not the weekly - again the topic in context being Pesach. But it is precisely this semi-ambiguity that lends to the credibility that this was a prophecy concerning the Pesach that Mashiach would show up: that that Pesach would be on a weekly Shabbat, thus satisfying both interpretations!

Yet even in that case which satisfies both interpretations, how can Mashiach die on an erev Pesach, and rise on Bikkurim, if that Pesach was literally on a weekly Shabbat, and you assert a literal three day and three night application? It just doesn't work. You have to lop one holiday off or another as applying to Mashiach.

Shalom,

Israel

[avi5207]

Amen unless you follow the flawed late rabbinic way of counting.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 12:39 PM, Daniel Crouch wrote:

Bikkurim is always on the first day of the week, after the regular Sabbath.

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:30:09 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

R. Daniel,

If three literal days and nights, how then can Mashiach be like the lambs slaughtered on Nisan 14, and rise on Nisan 16, Bikkurim? You have to give up one end or the other to make your understanding fit.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I must disagree.

The verses in Leviticus do not�have the same phraseology as�does Messiah's own prediction�about�His time in the grave.

He said Himself that He would be "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" in the belly of the earth, and the text He linked it to was�not�VaYikra 7 or VaYikra 15, or Yehoshua 5,�but Yonah 2:1.

Not only that, but He repeats this phrase twice.��"Just�as Yonah�was in the belly�of the great fish�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot", so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot".� He is being very, very specific, and giving us the interpretive reference very specifically.� Using any other scripture to interpret this prophecy is not responsible, especially if not thinking/referencing Yonah at all.

Yonah does not give us ANY frame of reference in regard to time, as to when�boarded the ship, or when he was thrown into the sea, or when he was released, except this�phrase, which Messiah has now quoted twice.� The only other place where this phrase is used is in 1 Sam 30, and there is nothing in that text that gives us leeway to shorten its duration.

It is unlikely to me that Messiah would be this very direct, quote the interpretive scripture directly, only to leave it to human logic to reason it away and shorten the duration of it.� "Day" and "Night" are very clearly understood, even by a child, without having to do mental gymnastics, especially where it is so very, very plainly spoken and repeated.

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:03:21 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Lev 7:11-18 regarding the peace offering makes it very clear that any part of a day is a day and a night when counting.� Niddah is also the same way.� It is not counted by 24 hour segments.� Kashrut of dishware says that it will be clean at evening regardless of when during the day it was kashered.� etc.

�

3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate.� Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon.� That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat.� The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance.� Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy.� It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

Thursday death would have had the Messiah rising a day after the barley was harvested and presented as the first fruits offering in the Temple.�

�

Look at Joshua 5:10-11.� They partook of newly harvested grain on the 16th of Nissan, First fruits.

�

You will see that Pesach is on the 14th Nissan.� Messiah died in the afternoon of 14th Nissan.� Was in the grave before sunset and rose on 16th Nissan, which is first fruits.� His resurrection was about 1 1/2 hours after sunset Saturday night.� This is when the priests were harvesting the barley for the morning offering.� It is when the first fruits were brought forth from the earth.

When you look at the Exodus you see we were brought out of Mitsrayim at night.� The Messiah had to rise at night as He redeems us from darkness and presents us before the Father in the light.�

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

�

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

�²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

�²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional� hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[Bryce Henderson]

I would add that Joshua 5:11 speaks of the "day after Passover" and not the "day after Shabbat".

[Israel]

Avi, if Yeshua meant (three times twenty four) 72 hours as you assert, then he was off by around 12 hours as he died at mincah in the afternoon and rose at night? If it was 72 hours, three 24 hour periods, as you assert, then why isn't it recorded that the resurrection of our Messiah took place on Sunday afternoon?

I don't see your math adding up.

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't buy it Israel. A day is 24 hours as God calls it. If you are to wait 7 days then you wait 7 full 24 hour days. The reason a person has to wait until the evening is simple. That's when a new 24 hour day starts plain and simple. I'm not adding anything to the Torah but the rabbis sure do as well as take away. The lake of fire will most likely be so full of the self righteous and religious there will scarcely be room for any other sinners. At the least most will be least in the kingdom of God.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 10:26 AM, Israel wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

 ²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

 ²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional  hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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Shalom

[Israel]

If the literalists in our group are correct, why isn't it recorded that the resurrection of our Messiah took place on Sunday afternoon, exactly three days after the died?

Shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

If the literalists in our group are correct, why isn't it recorded that the resurrection of our Messiah took place on Sunday afternoon, which would be exactly three days after he died?

Shalom,

Israel

[Daniel Crouch]

The rest-day of Pesach is never called "Shabbat" in Torah.. If it is, show me where, and I'm with you.  It is only later thought that calls that day a Sabbath.  It is specifically referred to as a "mikrah kadosh", not as "a sabbath", not even as a "shabbaton" as Yom Teruah and YomHaKippurim are, but only as mikra kadosh.  So, when He says HA Shabbat, He's naming THE sabbath.  It is in the context of Pesach because there WILL be THE SABBATH in that seven day period, no matter what.

Since it reads "mimacharat HAshabbat", it cannot read "unto the next Sabbath".  Mi macharat is rooted in the word "machar", which means tomorrow.  So, it reads correctly in English "the morrow after the sabbath".

It's simple, Messiah's Pesach did not HAVE to be on a weekly Sabbath.

He held His Seder with the Sadducees on the evening of the 14th, a Tuesday night.  He was arrested that night, tried, and crucified on Wednesday, when the Pharisees were about to have their seders on the night of the 15th, as they still do, which is a clear violation of Torah.  He was put in the grave that evening, and stayed there until Saturday night, arising just past sundown. 

I just don't think HaShem is at all "semi-ambiguous", but very clear.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

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From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:48:54 PM

[Yoseph ben Gershon]

Shabbat before His death would be the 10th when the lamb was brought in.  If what you say is true, then Yeshua violated Shabbat before His death, disqualifying Him from being the Messiah Savior!

On the first day unto the Shabbat, Yeshua and His disciples are on the road together and it is said that it is still the third day, best I can count it would be 4th or 5th depending on how it is counted, but it cannot be the third day.

Sorry, this cannot be correct.

Shabbat Shalom all,

R. Yoseph

[Daniel Crouch]

Yes, the walk to Emmaus was on Sunday, but it is a misunderstanding and mistranslation that Sunday was the third day since the crucifixion. Instead of writing down the verse in Greek, which most don't know, we ought to use what others have shown concerning this verse, which will have greater weight.

The Greek word for "since" after "the third day" in Luke 24:21 actually means "away from". Away from is the same as our "after". Yeshua died late on a Wednesday afternoon and was laid in the grave at sundown on Wednesday as Thursday was beginning. He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights on Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night and Thursday day, Friday day, and Saturday day using our reckoning of days and nights. He rose as the Sabbath was ending. So He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and rose after 3 days and 3 nights while the Sabbath was ending. So He rose on the third day. Sunday is therefore the 4th day. The actual literal Greek translation of Luke 24:21 is:

But surely also together with all these things, it brings a third day away from which all these things occurred.

Translators take the cumbersome literal translation and make it flow , taking some liberty with it, but trying to retain accuracy. The 4th day is "away from" the third day. So it is apparent that the verse is literally saying they were walking and talking after the third day, which was Sunday. However, have other translators understood this point too? Yes, let's look at 3 of them. (Luke 24:21)

Moffatt Translation--by James Moffatt
....but he is dead, and that is three days ago!

The New Berkeley Version in Modern English-- Gerrit Verkugl
Moreover, three days have already passed, since all these events occurred.

The Syriac New Testament Translated Into English From The Peshitto Version -- James Murdock
...and lo, three days have passed since all these things have occurred.

The Syriac Reading can be confirmed by 2 of the oldest manuscripts in Estrangelo Aramaic: the Sinaitic Palimpset and the Curetonian Syriac.

A more direct, literal translation from the Apostolic Bible reads:

But indeed with all these things, [ this third day leads in today] from which time these things took place.

Most compelling, however, is the Aramaic Peshitta text, which is better preserved and predates the greek:

"And behold, "THREE DAYS have PASSED!"

 

There is exceedingly ample evidence that the correct translation for Luke 24:21 is that the KJV should read, "today is after the third day since these things were done." As the information above shows, the oldest and multiple original manuscripts show that "away from" is the correct word for since, and shows us that they were talking about Sunday being the 4th day since Yeshua was laid in the grave. That troubled them, because He has clearly said many times that He would rise after the third day, after 3 days and 3 nights. He would fulfill the sign of Jonah, as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish, so Yeshua would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. These two disciples were challenged in their faith, because it appeared that Yeshua's many prophecies concerning His being raised from the dead had failed. They were going back to Emmaus in defeat, when a stranger joined them. This stranger explained to them all the prophecies concerning the Messiah from the Bible (Tanakh or Old Testament). They did not recognize that it was Yeshua, the risen Messiah talking to them. Only when they sat down to eat and He blessed the bread [which, thought called "lechem" is actually unleavend matzot, because they were in the fourth day of that feast] and gave it to them, were their eyes opened and they recognized Him as Yeshua. He then instantly disappeared from them.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. [day is in the text but italicized, meaning it was not in greek text]

Matthew 28:1 (NASB) Now late on the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. [day is in the text but italicized, meaning it was not in greek text]

The dawning of a new day in the biblical and Jewish day reckoning is at twilight as it is getting dark, not first light in the morning. The Sabbath ended at sundown, and the two Marys came to look at the gravesite after the Sabbath ended. Yeshua had already risen. Therefore, the Bible teaches He rose on the third day, on the Sabbath, regardless of what your tradition or any later creed states. Now let's show all the verses where Yeshua said He would rise on the third day, or those afterwards that state He did rise on the third day.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV) From that time forth began Yeshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:23 (KJV) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:19 (KJV) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Matthew 27:64 (KJV) Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mark 9:31 (KJV) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:34 (KJV) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 (KJV) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luke 13:32 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Luke 18:33 (KJV) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 24:7 (KJV) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Luke 24:46 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Acts 10:40 (KJV) Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;

1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All of the above verses state a prediction that He would be raised "the third day", or that some feared it coming true, or afterwards stated that it had come true. [Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Mark 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 13:32; 18:33; 24:7; 24:46; Acts 10:40; and 1 Corinthians 15:4]. The scriptural facts show that Yeshua rose from the grave late on the Sabbath, late on Saturday evening. This was 3 days and 3 nights AFTER He had been crucified, and it was also the third day. The first day being Thursday; the second day being Friday; and the third day being Saturday.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:11:59 PM

[avi5207]

Amen!


On 4/22/2011 1:18 PM, Daniel Crouch wrote:

With great respect to you all, I disagree that just because the Pharisees did it a�certain way, that they should then be followed.

A big portion of the Pharisees would not let gentiles participate in�Synagogue worship.�

A big portion of the Pharisees did not recognize Messiah.� You stated that He did it so "Judaism AS A WHOLE WOULD SEE".

As I Jew, I personally wish they had seen.� But, AS A WHOLE, with PHARISEES as leaders, they did not, and�STILL do not.

Who's to say the�Saducees were not right about something?� Just because they�rejected the notion of resurrection,�does not mean they were not right on some issues.�

The spotting of "night" and "day" is not a "western timeclock".� I've been in the middle east AND in the far east, and the sun and the moon operate the same on that side of the world as they do here in the west.� Day and Night are easily discerned.

Just because "the passage [I] reference says Shabbat which COULD be either", does that mean that I must then pick the less accurate interpretation simply to follow Pharisees?

The Jewish community is STILL having trouble�"recognizing" Messiah, and it is likely due, in large part, to the Phariseeical interpretations�of Torah which take entirely too much liberty with the language of it.

The Temple�service they offered went on for 40 years without acknowledgement/acceptance of�HaShem!��Precisely because they CHANGED THE FEASTS!

AND THE TORAH.� Yeshua kept His feast on the 14th, clearly, because He was crucified BEFORE the Pesach of the Pharisees! Which was DIFFERENT FROM/LATER THAN His!

The Pharisees did not keep Pesach bein ha'erabayim on the fourteenth of the first month, as the Torah plainly instructs.� They moved it to the 15th!� Instead of eating Matzah for seven days, as plainly instructed,�they eat it for eight.

While there is great merit in the writings of the Jews, including the Pharisees, it is NOT divinely inspired, and must be treated as such.

Clearly, the Pharisees were in MUCH ERROR in�THEIR interpretations of Torah, which is what Messiah Yeshua chided them for.� I�choose�to follow Messiah and HIS texts, and MUST consider what the�"leaven" of the Pharisees really is, and why He put a stop to PHARISEE's Temple worship!�

Again, with great respect�I tender these thoughts.� I do not wish to engender any kind of ill will.
�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:49:21 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Jonah is held accountable to the Torah.� Find it first in Torah, then exegetic Jonah.

you are correct when you say that it does not require mental gymnastics to get to the understanding.� It does however require a Jewish understanding of the phraseology and how it was used in the day, not a Western time clock.� Judaism understood this to be any part of a day is a day and a night.� Its use in Jewish writings contemporary to Yeshua make this evident.

Bikkurim is the first day of the week for the Sadducees not the Pharisees or the Temple service.� The Temple service and Pharisees put it on the 16th.� That is why so much was written about when the 16th falls on a Shabbat, if they are to harvest the barley or not.� The conclusion was, yes we harvest, even on a Shabbat.�

The passage you reference says Shabbat which could be either.� It was understood and applied as festival Shabbat in the days of Yeshua in the Temple.� He worshiped in the Temple and synagogues accordingly.� He also died and rose accordingly.� He did not do it according to some other reckoning which no one would have recognized or seen.� He did it so Judaism as a whole would see.� Therefore, as He was perfect and did according to the Temple service throughout His life and in His death, then the Pharisaic reckoning must have been correct.� Therefore, we should do accordingly and not according to the Sadducee reckoning.

�

Shalom

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

R. Daniel,

If three literal days and nights, how then can Mashiach be like the lambs slaughtered on Nisan 14, and rise on Nisan 16, Bikkurim? You have to give up one end or the other to make your understanding fit.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I must disagree.

The verses in Leviticus do not�have the same phraseology as�does Messiah's own prediction�about�His time in the grave.

He said Himself that He would be "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" in the belly of the earth, and the text He linked it to was�not�VaYikra 7 or VaYikra 15, or Yehoshua 5,�but Yonah 2:1.

Not only that, but He repeats this phrase twice.��"Just�as Yonah�was in the belly�of the great fish�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot", so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot".� He is being very, very specific, and giving us the interpretive reference very specifically.� Using any other scripture to interpret this prophecy is not responsible, especially if not thinking/referencing Yonah at all.

Yonah does not give us ANY frame of reference in regard to time, as to when�boarded the ship, or when he was thrown into the sea, or when he was released, except this�phrase, which Messiah has now quoted twice.� The only other place where this phrase is used is in 1 Sam 30, and there is nothing in that text that gives us leeway to shorten its duration.

It is unlikely to me that Messiah would be this very direct, quote the interpretive scripture directly, only to leave it to human logic to reason it away and shorten the duration of it.� "Day" and "Night" are very clearly understood, even by a child, without having to do mental gymnastics, especially where it is so very, very plainly spoken and repeated.

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:03:21 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Lev 7:11-18 regarding the peace offering makes it very clear that any part of a day is a day and a night when counting.� Niddah is also the same way.� It is not counted by 24 hour segments.� Kashrut of dishware says that it will be clean at evening regardless of when during the day it was kashered.� etc.

�

3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate.� Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon.� That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat.� The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance.� Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy.� It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

Thursday death would have had the Messiah rising a day after the barley was harvested and presented as the first fruits offering in the Temple.�

�

Look at Joshua 5:10-11.� They partook of newly harvested grain on the 16th of Nissan, First fruits.

�

You will see that Pesach is on the 14th Nissan.� Messiah died in the afternoon of 14th Nissan.� Was in the grave before sunset and rose on 16th Nissan, which is first fruits.� His resurrection was about 1 1/2 hours after sunset Saturday night.� This is when the priests were harvesting the barley for the morning offering.� It is when the first fruits were brought forth from the earth.

When you look at the Exodus you see we were brought out of Mitsrayim at night.� The Messiah had to rise at night as He redeems us from darkness and presents us before the Father in the light.�

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

�

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

�²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

�²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional� hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[Israel]

R. Daniel,

Wouldn't this mean then that according to your reckoning that Yeshua was in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights and an afternoon on top of that?

Shalom,

Israel

[Daniel Crouch]

Nope.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:34:39 PM

[Daniel Crouch]

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:36:41 PM

[Bryce Henderson]

Rabbi - What are some of the ways He would have transgressed Shabbat if that were indeed true?

On 2011-04-22, at 10:03 AM, Yoseph ben Gershon wrote:

[Yoseph ben Gershon]

You make my point for me.  If He rose on Shabbat, then Yom Rishon is not the third day but the forth or the fifth day since His death.

And, like I said, if He died on Wed. then He entered on Shabbat and violated it.  He then would be disqualified from being the Messiah.

If He died Wed, Thursday would have been the festival Sabbath which they rested according to the commandment and He had to be in the grave before, therefore Pesach is called a Shabbat several times by your reckoning.  (Keep your arguments straight.)

If He died on Wed, Friday would have been preparation day.  Why didn't the women and disciples care for the burial then, why did they wait until after the weekly Shabbat?  This is greatly disrespectful as one must hurry to bury the dead properly.

 

If He died on Thursday, then only the Saducees would have celebrated His resurrection and they would have done so outside of the Temple.  The Pharisees and the Temple service for the resurrection would have been done on Shabbat.  Furthermore, he would have violated Shabbat by traveling on Shabbat to be ready to enter the Temple on Yom Rishon. 

 

If He died on Friday, then the Saducees, Pharisees, and almost all of greater Judaism would have been a witness to both his death and His resurrection.  He also would not be in a position of violating the Sabbath before His death.  Friday is the only way He also would have kept all the commands regarding His death as found in the Torah.  His resurrection had to be soon after sun set so that He could do all the commands regarding His resurrection and do the work required to be done before sunrise.  If he rose in the afternoon, He does not do any of those commands and therefore, cannot be the Messiah. 

 

Yeshua spent 33 years of His life celebrating the feasts in the Temple.  He did so according to the reckoning of the Pharisees who determined when the feast would be celebrated in the Temple.  He did not have the right to do His "Temple service" when He determined to do so but rather did it according to the ruling of the rulers of His day.  As He is/was the Messiah and had to be perfect, then the calendar in use in that day must have been correct.  Therefore we should abide accordingly.

[Daniel Crouch]

wed eve     thur eve     fri eve      sat eve

            |***      1| ***     2|  ***      3|

            |                                              |

         executed                                      rose

 

He arose at the last line, saturday night, at Havdalah.  The 'clock' doesn't start until dusk on Wed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:34:39 PM

[avi5207]

Simple really Israel. Wednesday afternoon (evening sacrifice at or near dusk) to Thursday afternoon is day 1. Thursday afternoon to Friday afternoon is day 2. Friday afternoon to Shabbat afternoon is day 3. So it is entirely possible to have been in the earth 3 days and 3 nights and still rise at the end of the Sabbath. Remember the women went out early on the first day of the week (Sunday) to finish the burial process. Since they were already unclean for the dead it follows they would be the ones that concluded the burial. First fruits is always on the first day of the week. The weekly Sabbath is not the Sabbath mentioned but the annual Sabbath of the first day of unleavened bread which in that year occurred on a Thursday leaving Friday open to buy spices, oils etc. to finish the burial of Yeshua on Sunday.
�

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 1:54 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi, if Yeshua meant (three times twenty four) 72 hours as you assert, then he was off by around 12 hours as he died at mincah in the afternoon and rose at night? If it was 72 hours, three 24 hour periods, as you assert, then why isn't it recorded that the resurrection of our Messiah took place on Sunday afternoon?

I don't see your math adding up.

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't buy it Israel. A day is 24 hours as God calls it. If you are to wait 7 days then you wait 7 full 24 hour days. The reason a person has to wait until the evening is simple. That's when a new 24 hour day starts plain and simple. I'm not adding anything to the Torah but the rabbis sure do as well as take away. The lake of fire will most likely be so full of the self righteous and religious there will scarcely be room for any other sinners. At the least most will be least in the kingdom of God.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 10:26 AM, Israel wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

�²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

�²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional� hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[avi5207]

Amen!!!

Avi


On 4/22/2011 2:03 PM, Daniel Crouch wrote:

The rest-day of Pesach is never called�"Shabbat" in Torah.. If it is, show me where, and I'm with�you.� It is only later thought that calls that day a Sabbath.� It�is specifically referred to as a "mikrah kadosh", not as "a sabbath", not even as a "shabbaton" as�Yom�Teruah and YomHaKippurim are, but only as�mikra kadosh.� So, when He says HA�Shabbat, He's naming THE sabbath.��It is in the context of Pesach because there WILL be THE SABBATH in that seven day period, no matter what.

Since it reads "mimacharat HAshabbat", it cannot read "unto the next Sabbath".� Mi macharat is rooted in the word "machar", which means tomorrow.� So, it reads�correctly in English "the morrow�after the sabbath".

It's simple,�Messiah's�Pesach did not�HAVE to be on a weekly Sabbath.

He�held His Seder with the Sadducees on the evening of the 14th, a Tuesday night.� He was arrested that night, tried, and crucified on Wednesday, when the Pharisees were about to have their�seders on the night of the 15th, as they still do, which is a clear violation of Torah.� He was�put in the grave that evening, and stayed there until Saturday night, arising just past sundown.�

I just don't think�HaShem is at all "semi-ambiguous", but very clear.
�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:48:54 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

It doesn't matter if the argument was held first by the Pharisees or Saducees. What matters is the argument being made itself.

"HaShabbat" is in context of Pesach. "the day after the sabbath" should instead be written "on the first day unto (the next) Sabbath." Why is it written "after the Sabbath" and not also qualified with "on the first day of the week" or some other indication? Because it is not talking about the weekly Shabbat, for there is a "Sabbath" in context that is not right before Yom Rishon and that "Sabbath" can only be Pesach and not the weekly - again the topic in context being Pesach. But it is precisely this semi-ambiguity that lends to the credibility that this was a prophecy concerning the Pesach that Mashiach would show up: that that Pesach would be on a weekly Shabbat, thus satisfying both interpretations!

Yet even in that case which satisfies both interpretations, how can Mashiach die on an erev Pesach, and rise on Bikkurim, if that Pesach was literally on a weekly Shabbat, and you assert a literal three day and three night application? It just doesn't work. You have to lop one holiday off or another as applying to Mashiach.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

With great respect to you all, I disagree that just because the Pharisees did it a�certain way, that they should then be followed.

A big portion of the Pharisees would not let gentiles participate in�Synagogue worship.�

A big portion of the Pharisees did not recognize Messiah.� You stated that He did it so "Judaism AS A WHOLE WOULD SEE".

As I Jew, I personally wish they had seen.� But, AS A WHOLE, with PHARISEES as leaders, they did not, and�STILL do not.

Who's to say the�Saducees were not right about something?� Just because they�rejected the notion of resurrection,�does not mean they were not right on some issues.�

The spotting of "night" and "day" is not a "western timeclock".� I've been in the middle east AND in the far east, and the sun and the moon operate the same on that side of the world as they do here in the west.� Day and Night are easily discerned.

Just because "the passage [I] reference says Shabbat which COULD be either", does that mean that I must then pick the less accurate interpretation simply to follow Pharisees?

The Jewish community is STILL having trouble�"recognizing" Messiah, and it is likely due, in large part, to the Phariseeical interpretations�of Torah which take entirely too much liberty with the language of it.

The Temple�service they offered went on for 40 years without acknowledgement/acceptance of�HaShem!��Precisely because they CHANGED THE FEASTS!

AND THE TORAH.� Yeshua kept His feast on the 14th, clearly, because He was crucified BEFORE the Pesach of the Pharisees! Which was DIFFERENT FROM/LATER THAN His!

The Pharisees did not keep Pesach bein ha'erabayim on the fourteenth of the first month, as the Torah plainly instructs.� They moved it to the 15th!� Instead of eating Matzah for seven days, as plainly instructed,�they eat it for eight.

While there is great merit in the writings of the Jews, including the Pharisees, it is NOT divinely inspired, and must be treated as such.

Clearly, the Pharisees were in MUCH ERROR in�THEIR interpretations of Torah, which is what Messiah Yeshua chided them for.� I�choose�to follow Messiah and HIS texts, and MUST consider what the�"leaven" of the Pharisees really is, and why He put a stop to PHARISEE's Temple worship!�

Again, with great respect�I tender these thoughts.� I do not wish to engender any kind of ill will.
�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:49:21 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Jonah is held accountable to the Torah.� Find it first in Torah, then exegetic Jonah.

you are correct when you say that it does not require mental gymnastics to get to the understanding.� It does however require a Jewish understanding of the phraseology and how it was used in the day, not a Western time clock.� Judaism understood this to be any part of a day is a day and a night.� Its use in Jewish writings contemporary to Yeshua make this evident.

Bikkurim is the first day of the week for the Sadducees not the Pharisees or the Temple service.� The Temple service and Pharisees put it on the 16th.� That is why so much was written about when the 16th falls on a Shabbat, if they are to harvest the barley or not.� The conclusion was, yes we harvest, even on a Shabbat.�

The passage you reference says Shabbat which could be either.� It was understood and applied as festival Shabbat in the days of Yeshua in the Temple.� He worshiped in the Temple and synagogues accordingly.� He also died and rose accordingly.� He did not do it according to some other reckoning which no one would have recognized or seen.� He did it so Judaism as a whole would see.� Therefore, as He was perfect and did according to the Temple service throughout His life and in His death, then the Pharisaic reckoning must have been correct.� Therefore, we should do accordingly and not according to the Sadducee reckoning.

�

Shalom

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

R. Daniel,

If three literal days and nights, how then can Mashiach be like the lambs slaughtered on Nisan 14, and rise on Nisan 16, Bikkurim? You have to give up one end or the other to make your understanding fit.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I must disagree.

The verses in Leviticus do not�have the same phraseology as�does Messiah's own prediction�about�His time in the grave.

He said Himself that He would be "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" in the belly of the earth, and the text He linked it to was�not�VaYikra 7 or VaYikra 15, or Yehoshua 5,�but Yonah 2:1.

Not only that, but He repeats this phrase twice.��"Just�as Yonah�was in the belly�of the great fish�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot", so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot".� He is being very, very specific, and giving us the interpretive reference very specifically.� Using any other scripture to interpret this prophecy is not responsible, especially if not thinking/referencing Yonah at all.

Yonah does not give us ANY frame of reference in regard to time, as to when�boarded the ship, or when he was thrown into the sea, or when he was released, except this�phrase, which Messiah has now quoted twice.� The only other place where this phrase is used is in 1 Sam 30, and there is nothing in that text that gives us leeway to shorten its duration.

It is unlikely to me that Messiah would be this very direct, quote the interpretive scripture directly, only to leave it to human logic to reason it away and shorten the duration of it.� "Day" and "Night" are very clearly understood, even by a child, without having to do mental gymnastics, especially where it is so very, very plainly spoken and repeated.

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:03:21 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Lev 7:11-18 regarding the peace offering makes it very clear that any part of a day is a day and a night when counting.� Niddah is also the same way.� It is not counted by 24 hour segments.� Kashrut of dishware says that it will be clean at evening regardless of when during the day it was kashered.� etc.

�

3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate.� Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon.� That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat.� The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance.� Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy.� It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

Thursday death would have had the Messiah rising a day after the barley was harvested and presented as the first fruits offering in the Temple.�

�

Look at Joshua 5:10-11.� They partook of newly harvested grain on the 16th of Nissan, First fruits.

�

You will see that Pesach is on the 14th Nissan.� Messiah died in the afternoon of 14th Nissan.� Was in the grave before sunset and rose on 16th Nissan, which is first fruits.� His resurrection was about 1 1/2 hours after sunset Saturday night.� This is when the priests were harvesting the barley for the morning offering.� It is when the first fruits were brought forth from the earth.

When you look at the Exodus you see we were brought out of Mitsrayim at night.� The Messiah had to rise at night as He redeems us from darkness and presents us before the Father in the light.�

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

�

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

�²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

�²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional� hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[Daniel Crouch]

Minor correction

 

wed eve     thur eve     fri eve      sat eve

            |***      1| ***     2|  ***      3|

            |                                              |

         buried                                      rose

 

He arose at the last line, saturday night, at Havdalah.  The 'clock' doesn't start until dusk on Wed. 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:44:28 PM

[Daniel Crouch]

You didn't read it as I wrote it!

You haven't shown how he would have violated Torah on the Shabbat when he entered Yerushalayim, you just keep asserting He would have.

I never said the Pharisees didn't call that day a Shabbat, but that the Torah does not.

He was put in the grave before the festival 'shabbat', because the Pharisees were in leadership, and considered it a Sabbath, and likely would have prosecuted them if they had not gotten done beforehand.

It was not a violation of Sabbath to walk from Bethany, as Bethany was less than 2 mi away.

You're trying to stuff what you believe INTO the text.  It's simply not there.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:42:35 PM

[Israel]

Well here's one:

John 20:7 και το σουδαριον ο ην επι της κεφαλης αυτου ου μετα των οθονιων κειμενον αλλα χωρις εντετυλιγμενον εις ενα τοπον

From the greek word "tulisso" which means to entwine, wind, or wrap - a malacha which is forbidden on Shabbat.

John 20:7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.

They found his face-cloth (most likely his tallit) wrapped up in a separated place apart from the burial wrappings.

Israel

[Israel]

"The 'clock' doesn't start until dusk on Wed. "

The clock starts when he is "in the heart of the earth" ie when he's buried. Thus this forces one to begin counting either from the very moment of burial (literal counting of hours), or inclusive of the day on which he was buried. You can't make an exception to the prophecy, you have to instead be consistent with your application of what it means "three days and three nights" and not bend it a little to fit in the whole timeline of burial to resurrection. If you have to bend anything or not start counting or "clock doesnt start until dusk" in order to fit in timeline, then the argument proves itself flawed right there. To borrow an Americanism, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say it's literally three days and three nights, when you're also including an extra afternoon.

I've been hit up on this by unbelieving orthodox Jews, and the only way to understand the prophecy is to understand the days are inclusive of the burial time on the afternoon of his death, and not relative/exclusive of the burial time on the afternoon of his death.

Shalom,

Israel

[Jeff Ashman]

B"H

"Mark 16:2 CJB  Very early the next day, just after sunrise, they went to the tomb." Note: ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου - at the rising of the sun.

"Matthew 28:1 CJB  After Shabbat, as the next day was dawning, Miryam of Magdala and the other Miryam went to see the grave." Note: επιφωσκουση - growing light

Both of these witnesses eliminate the possibility that the women went to the tomb just after Shabbat had finished.  They did not go until the sun was coming up on the first day.

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah!  Jeff

Jeff A
http://toemunah.blogspot.com
Mark 12:29-31 Yeshua answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: HaShem our Elohim, HaShem is One. (30) And you shall love HaShem your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' (31) The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

---

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:45:29 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Simple really Israel. Wednesday afternoon (evening sacrifice at or near dusk) to Thursday afternoon is day 1. Thursday afternoon to Friday afternoon is day 2. Friday afternoon to Shabbat afternoon is day 3. So it is entirely possible to have been in the earth 3 days and 3 nights and still rise at the end of the Sabbath. Remember the women went out early on the first day of the week (Sunday) to finish the burial process. Since they were already unclean for the dead it follows they would be the ones that concluded the burial. First fruits is always on the first day of the week. The weekly Sabbath is not the Sabbath mentioned but the annual Sabbath of the first day of unleavened bread which in that year occurred on a Thursday leaving Friday open to buy spices, oils etc. to finish the burial of Yeshua on Sunday.
 

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 1:54 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi, if Yeshua meant (three times twenty four) 72 hours as you assert, then he was off by around 12 hours as he died at mincah in the afternoon and rose at night? If it was 72 hours, three 24 hour periods, as you assert, then why isn't it recorded that the resurrection of our Messiah took place on Sunday afternoon?

I don't see your math adding up.

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't buy it Israel. A day is 24 hours as God calls it. If you are to wait 7 days then you wait 7 full 24 hour days. The reason a person has to wait until the evening is simple. That's when a new 24 hour day starts plain and simple. I'm not adding anything to the Torah but the rabbis sure do as well as take away. The lake of fire will most likely be so full of the self righteous and religious there will scarcely be room for any other sinners. At the least most will be least in the kingdom of God.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 10:26 AM, Israel wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

 ²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

 ²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.
Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional  hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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Shalom

[Israel]

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:45 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Simple really Israel. Wednesday afternoon (evening sacrifice at or near dusk) to Thursday afternoon is day 1.

Actually, wouldn't that technically be day 1 (night and day) PLUS Wed afternoon?

Something to also consider, isn't the prophecy "day and night" and not "night and day"? The implication is that the first thing counted is the day, and then the night, not the other way around?

Israel


 

Thursday afternoon to Friday afternoon is day 2. Friday afternoon to Shabbat afternoon is day 3. So it is entirely possible to have been in the earth 3 days and 3 nights and still rise at the end of the Sabbath. Remember the women went out early on the first day of the week (Sunday) to finish the burial process. Since they were already unclean for the dead it follows they would be the ones that concluded the burial. First fruits is always on the first day of the week. The weekly Sabbath is not the Sabbath mentioned but the annual Sabbath of the first day of unleavened bread which in that year occurred on a Thursday leaving Friday open to buy spices, oils etc. to finish the burial of Yeshua on Sunday.
 

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 1:54 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi, if Yeshua meant (three times twenty four) 72 hours as you assert, then he was off by around 12 hours as he died at mincah in the afternoon and rose at night? If it was 72 hours, three 24 hour periods, as you assert, then why isn't it recorded that the resurrection of our Messiah took place on Sunday afternoon?

I don't see your math adding up.

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't buy it Israel. A day is 24 hours as God calls it. If you are to wait 7 days then you wait 7 full 24 hour days. The reason a person has to wait until the evening is simple. That's when a new 24 hour day starts plain and simple. I'm not adding anything to the Torah but the rabbis sure do as well as take away. The lake of fire will most likely be so full of the self righteous and religious there will scarcely be room for any other sinners. At the least most will be least in the kingdom of God.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 10:26 AM, Israel wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

 ²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

 ²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional  hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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Shalom

[Israel]

Correct Jeff. The women went to the tomb after sunrise on Yom Rishon, not after sunset.

[Israel]

Going along with this, it's a general question to be raised:

Why is the prophecy "3 days and 3 nights" instead of "3 nights and 3 days?" the implication being that R. Daniel you are starting your count on the night (your exclusive reckoning), whereas the prophecy indicates we should start our count on the day (my inclusive reckoning)?

Israel

[Yoseph ben Gershon]

Bryce, go and look at His entrance to Jerusalem.  I found 8 quickly.  I do not have time to locate the other.  As I remember there are nine.  It may only be eight.

Shabbat Shalom

 

Yeshua instructed His disciples to Travel more than a sabbath day journey on Shabbat (Matt 21:1)  Travel on Shabbat is limited to a Sabbath day's journey.  Instructing another to sin is in and of itself a sin.

He instructed the disciples to untie the colt. (Mark 11:1)  tying is prohibited on Shabbat.  Instructing another to sin is in and of itself a sin.

The disciples put their garments on the colt (Mark 11:7)  The carrying of garments by the colt is prohibited through the gates on Shabbat.  He did not stop them doing so.

Yeshua road the colt on Shabbat (Mark 11:8)  Riding a donkey is specifically prohibited on Shabbat.

many cut branches and placed them on the road (Matt 21:8, Mark 11:8) the cutting of branches is prohibited on Shabbat.  He did not stop them from doing so.

Yeshua road the colt over the branches thereby "threshing" them.  (Mark 11:8)  Threshing is prohibited on Shabbat.

He entered Jerusalem on a colt with the garments (Mark 11:11)  He carried through the gates on Shabbat.

Yeshua traveled more than a Sabbath's day journey on Shabbat (Luke 19:28-29

Shalom

R. Yoseph

[Bryce Henderson]

Thanks! Shabbat Shalom to you and all!

[Israel]

Shabbat shalom R. Yoseph and R. Daniel!

[Israel]

Shabbat Shalom everyone!

[Daniel Crouch]

Where are the Torah references that confirm these are specific mitzvot?
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 3:18:14 PM

[Jeff A]

And by context, they went on the same day that Maschiach was resurrected.

Blessings and Shabbat Shalom! Jeff

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Yoseph ben Gershon]

I do not have time to provide this to you.  Look at HaShem's prohibited works in the Torah as they relate to Shabbat.  It is not what many Messianic people teach, related to occupation and force times distance = work.  That is Webster's and Physics definition and have nothing to do with Scripture.

While you are there, you may wish to look at what the works are that are commanded to be done on Shabbat, how to holy Shabbat, not profane Shabbat, enjoy Shabbat, Glory or honor Shabbat, Remember the Shabbat, and guard the Shabbat.

If one does not do the works commanded to be done on Shabbat, has one Shabbated? or have they profaned it?

Shabbat Shalom

[Israel]

R. Daniel:

I have time to list one, perhaps the thread that will unravel the whole thing for you:

"He entered Jerusalem on a colt with the garments (Mark 11:11)"

Jeremiah 17:21
'Thus says the LORD, " Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any load on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem.

"You shall not bring a load out of your houses on the sabbath day ^(E)nor do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers.


Now if Jeremiah is a true prophet, and not adding to the Torah, then where in the Torah do we find a prohibition to carry a load through the gates on Shabbat?  For if Jeremiah is correct, and if you are correct that Yeshua rode the donkey with the coat through the gates of Jerusalem, and it was Pesach as you assert, where no work can be done, including one's donkey, then Yeshua is a sinner at best (and not the Messiah), and a false prophet at worst.

I look forward to your answer as to where you believe in Torah that Jeremiah has the justification to make such a bold claim concerning the prohibition on carrying through the gates on Shabbat, without adding or subtracting from the Torah.

Shabbat Shalom!

Israel

[Daniel Crouch]

Yes, Jeremiah is a prophet.   But, he does not instruct the king of Israel NOT to ride a donkey on the Sabbath, but not to "bear a burden".

וְאַל-תִּשְׂאוּ מַשָּׂא בְּיוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת

Messiah was not bearing a burden, carrying a workload.  He didn't add to the Torah.  The Pharisees did, but saying the riding on a donkey is bearing a burden.  Now, if Messiah had given the donkey a ride, the He would have been violating Torah.

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 4:24:43 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

[Daniel Crouch]

This demonstrates only that many Jews today are doing the same things the Pharisees are guilty of: replacing the commands of Elohim with the commands of men.

Nothing you mention can be cited in Torah.  Your assertion that I have not read Torah is a mere human tactic.  Show me in Torah where it says not to walk on the Sabbath or not to ride a donkey, and I'm with you.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 3:55:36 PM

[Daniel Crouch]

And Shabbat Shalom to all!
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 3:55:36 PM

[avi5207]

You got to be kidding right? Are you such a hard core rabbinic Jew that you choose to be as blind as they? He died in the 9th hour or about 3 PM how long would it take to petition the body of a convicted criminal? At best they had minutes before the first day of unleavened bread... at best! Contrary to your opinion God says the day begins at sundown.

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 2:58 PM, Israel wrote:

"The 'clock' doesn't start until dusk on Wed. "

The clock starts when he is "in the heart of the earth" ie when he's buried. Thus this forces one to begin counting either from the very moment of burial (literal counting of hours), or inclusive of the day on which he was buried. You can't make an exception to the prophecy, you have to instead be consistent with your application of what it means "three days and three nights" and not bend it a little to fit in the whole timeline of burial to resurrection. If you have to bend anything or not start counting or "clock doesnt start until dusk" in order to fit in timeline, then the argument proves itself flawed right there. To borrow an Americanism, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say it's literally three days and three nights, when you're also including an extra afternoon.

I've been hit up on this by unbelieving orthodox Jews, and the only way to understand the prophecy is to understand the days are inclusive of the burial time on the afternoon of his death, and not relative/exclusive of the burial time on the afternoon of his death.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

wed eve���� thur eve���� fri eve����� sat eve

������������|***���� �1|�***�����2|��***����� 3|

������������|����������������������������������������������|

�������� executed������������������������������������� rose

�

He arose at the last line, saturday night, at Havdalah.� The 'clock' doesn't start until dusk on Wed.�

�

�

�

�

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

�

There is exceedingly ample evidence that the correct translation for Luke 24:21 is that the KJV should read, "today is after the third day since these things were done." As the information above shows, the oldest and multiple original manuscripts show that "away from" is the correct word for since, and shows us that they were talking about Sunday being the 4th day since Yeshua was laid in the grave. That troubled them, because He has clearly said many times that He would rise after the third day, after 3 days and 3 nights. He would fulfill the sign of Jonah, as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish, so Yeshua would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. These two disciples were challenged in their faith, because it appeared that Yeshua's many prophecies concerning His being raised from the dead had failed. They were going back to Emmaus in defeat, when a stranger joined them. This stranger explained to them all the prophecies concerning the Messiah from the Bible (Tanakh or Old Testament). They did not recognize that it was Yeshua, the risen Messiah talking to them. Only when they sat down to eat and He blessed the bread [which, thought called "lechem" is actually unleavend matzot, because they were in the fourth day of that feast] and gave it to them, were their eyes opened and they recognized Him as Yeshua. He then instantly disappeared from them.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. [day is in the text but italicized, meaning it was not in greek text]

Matthew 28:1 (NASB) Now late on the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. [day is in the text but italicized, meaning it was not in greek text]

The dawning of a new day in the biblical and Jewish day reckoning is at twilight as it is getting dark, not first light in the morning. The Sabbath ended at sundown, and the two Marys came to look at the gravesite after the Sabbath ended. Yeshua had already risen. Therefore, the Bible teaches He rose on the third day, on the Sabbath, regardless of what your tradition or any later creed states. Now let's show all the verses where Yeshua said He would rise on the third day, or those afterwards that state He did rise on the third day.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV) From that time forth began Yeshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:23 (KJV) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:19 (KJV) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Matthew 27:64 (KJV) Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mark 9:31 (KJV) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:34 (KJV) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 (KJV) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luke 13:32 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Luke 18:33 (KJV) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 24:7 (KJV) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Luke 24:46 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Acts 10:40 (KJV) Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;

1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All of the above verses state a prediction that He would be raised "the third day", or that some feared it coming true, or afterwards stated that it had come true. [Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Mark 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 13:32; 18:33; 24:7; 24:46; Acts 10:40; and 1 Corinthians 15:4]. The scriptural facts show that Yeshua rose from the grave late on the Sabbath, late on Saturday evening. This was 3 days and 3 nights AFTER He had been crucified, and it was also the third day. The first day being Thursday; the second day being Friday; and the third day being Saturday.

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:11:59 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Shabbat before His death would be the 10th when the lamb was brought in.� If what you say is true, then Yeshua violated Shabbat before His death, disqualifying Him from being the Messiah Savior!

On the first day unto the Shabbat, Yeshua and His disciples are on the road together and it is said that it is still the third day, best I can count it would be 4th or 5th depending on how it is counted, but it cannot be the third day.

Sorry, this cannot be correct.

Shabbat Shalom all,

R. Yoseph

�

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The rest-day of Pesach is never called�"Shabbat" in Torah.. If it is, show me where, and I'm with�you.� It is only later thought that calls that day a Sabbath.� It�is specifically referred to as a "mikrah kadosh", not as "a sabbath", not even as a "shabbaton" as�Yom�Teruah and YomHaKippurim are, but only as�mikra kadosh.� So, when He says HA�Shabbat, He's naming THE sabbath.��It is in the context of Pesach because there WILL be THE SABBATH in that seven day period, no matter what.

Since it reads "mimacharat HAshabbat", it cannot read "unto the next Sabbath".� Mi macharat is rooted in the word "machar", which means tomorrow.� So, it reads�correctly in English "the morrow�after the sabbath".

It's simple,�Messiah's�Pesach did not�HAVE to be on a weekly Sabbath.

He�held His Seder with the Sadducees on the evening of the 14th, a Tuesday night.� He was arrested that night, tried, and crucified on Wednesday, when the Pharisees were about to have their�seders on the night of the 15th, as they still do, which is a clear violation of Torah.� He was�put in the grave that evening, and stayed there until Saturday night, arising just past sundown.�

I just don't think�HaShem is at all "semi-ambiguous", but very clear.
�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:48:54 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

It doesn't matter if the argument was held first by the Pharisees or Saducees. What matters is the argument being made itself.

"HaShabbat" is in context of Pesach. "the day after the sabbath" should instead be written "on the first day unto (the next) Sabbath." Why is it written "after the Sabbath" and not also qualified with "on the first day of the week" or some other indication? Because it is not talking about the weekly Shabbat, for there is a "Sabbath" in context that is not right before Yom Rishon and that "Sabbath" can only be Pesach and not the weekly - again the topic in context being Pesach. But it is precisely this semi-ambiguity that lends to the credibility that this was a prophecy concerning the Pesach that Mashiach would show up: that that Pesach would be on a weekly Shabbat, thus satisfying both interpretations!

Yet even in that case which satisfies both interpretations, how can Mashiach die on an erev Pesach, and rise on Bikkurim, if that Pesach was literally on a weekly Shabbat, and you assert a literal three day and three night application? It just doesn't work. You have to lop one holiday off or another as applying to Mashiach.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

With great respect to you all, I disagree that just because the Pharisees did it a�certain way, that they should then be followed.

A big portion of the Pharisees would not let gentiles participate in�Synagogue worship.�

A big portion of the Pharisees did not recognize Messiah.� You stated that He did it so "Judaism AS A WHOLE WOULD SEE".

As I Jew, I personally wish they had seen.� But, AS A WHOLE, with PHARISEES as leaders, they did not, and�STILL do not.

Who's to say the�Saducees were not right about something?� Just because they�rejected the notion of resurrection,�does not mean they were not right on some issues.�

The spotting of "night" and "day" is not a "western timeclock".� I've been in the middle east AND in the far east, and the sun and the moon operate the same on that side of the world as they do here in the west.� Day and Night are easily discerned.

Just because "the passage [I] reference says Shabbat which COULD be either", does that mean that I must then pick the less accurate interpretation simply to follow Pharisees?

The Jewish community is STILL having trouble�"recognizing" Messiah, and it is likely due, in large part, to the Phariseeical interpretations�of Torah which take entirely too much liberty with the language of it.

The Temple�service they offered went on for 40 years without acknowledgement/acceptance of�HaShem!��Precisely because they CHANGED THE FEASTS!

AND THE TORAH.� Yeshua kept His feast on the 14th, clearly, because He was crucified BEFORE the Pesach of the Pharisees! Which was DIFFERENT FROM/LATER THAN His!

The Pharisees did not keep Pesach bein ha'erabayim on the fourteenth of the first month, as the Torah plainly instructs.� They moved it to the 15th!� Instead of eating Matzah for seven days, as plainly instructed,�they eat it for eight.

While there is great merit in the writings of the Jews, including the Pharisees, it is NOT divinely inspired, and must be treated as such.

Clearly, the Pharisees were in MUCH ERROR in�THEIR interpretations of Torah, which is what Messiah Yeshua chided them for.� I�choose�to follow Messiah and HIS texts, and MUST consider what the�"leaven" of the Pharisees really is, and why He put a stop to PHARISEE's Temple worship!�

Again, with great respect�I tender these thoughts.� I do not wish to engender any kind of ill will.
�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:49:21 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Jonah is held accountable to the Torah.� Find it first in Torah, then exegetic Jonah.

you are correct when you say that it does not require mental gymnastics to get to the understanding.� It does however require a Jewish understanding of the phraseology and how it was used in the day, not a Western time clock.� Judaism understood this to be any part of a day is a day and a night.� Its use in Jewish writings contemporary to Yeshua make this evident.

Bikkurim is the first day of the week for the Sadducees not the Pharisees or the Temple service.� The Temple service and Pharisees put it on the 16th.� That is why so much was written about when the 16th falls on a Shabbat, if they are to harvest the barley or not.� The conclusion was, yes we harvest, even on a Shabbat.�

The passage you reference says Shabbat which could be either.� It was understood and applied as festival Shabbat in the days of Yeshua in the Temple.� He worshiped in the Temple and synagogues accordingly.� He also died and rose accordingly.� He did not do it according to some other reckoning which no one would have recognized or seen.� He did it so Judaism as a whole would see.� Therefore, as He was perfect and did according to the Temple service throughout His life and in His death, then the Pharisaic reckoning must have been correct.� Therefore, we should do accordingly and not according to the Sadducee reckoning.

�

Shalom

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

R. Daniel,

If three literal days and nights, how then can Mashiach be like the lambs slaughtered on Nisan 14, and rise on Nisan 16, Bikkurim? You have to give up one end or the other to make your understanding fit.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I must disagree.

The verses in Leviticus do not�have the same phraseology as�does Messiah's own prediction�about�His time in the grave.

He said Himself that He would be "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" in the belly of the earth, and the text He linked it to was�not�VaYikra 7 or VaYikra 15, or Yehoshua 5,�but Yonah 2:1.

Not only that, but He repeats this phrase twice.��"Just�as Yonah�was in the belly�of the great fish�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot", so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth�"shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot".� He is being very, very specific, and giving us the interpretive reference very specifically.� Using any other scripture to interpret this prophecy is not responsible, especially if not thinking/referencing Yonah at all.

Yonah does not give us ANY frame of reference in regard to time, as to when�boarded the ship, or when he was thrown into the sea, or when he was released, except this�phrase, which Messiah has now quoted twice.� The only other place where this phrase is used is in 1 Sam 30, and there is nothing in that text that gives us leeway to shorten its duration.

It is unlikely to me that Messiah would be this very direct, quote the interpretive scripture directly, only to leave it to human logic to reason it away and shorten the duration of it.� "Day" and "Night" are very clearly understood, even by a child, without having to do mental gymnastics, especially where it is so very, very plainly spoken and repeated.

�

�

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H�

�

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:03:21 AM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Lev 7:11-18 regarding the peace offering makes it very clear that any part of a day is a day and a night when counting.� Niddah is also the same way.� It is not counted by 24 hour segments.� Kashrut of dishware says that it will be clean at evening regardless of when during the day it was kashered.� etc.

�

3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate.� Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon.� That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat.� The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance.� Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy.� It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

Thursday death would have had the Messiah rising a day after the barley was harvested and presented as the first fruits offering in the Temple.�

�

Look at Joshua 5:10-11.� They partook of newly harvested grain on the 16th of Nissan, First fruits.

�

You will see that Pesach is on the 14th Nissan.� Messiah died in the afternoon of 14th Nissan.� Was in the grave before sunset and rose on 16th Nissan, which is first fruits.� His resurrection was about 1 1/2 hours after sunset Saturday night.� This is when the priests were harvesting the barley for the morning offering.� It is when the first fruits were brought forth from the earth.

When you look at the Exodus you see we were brought out of Mitsrayim at night.� The Messiah had to rise at night as He redeems us from darkness and presents us before the Father in the light.�

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

�

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

�²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

�²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional� hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).� I read also Tim Hegg's.� Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[avi5207]

Yes thanks for making my point even clearer. Yeshua was not in the tomb! So exactly when He arose is speculation on everyone's part. Sometime at the end of the weekly Shabbat till just before the dawn of the first day is all we know for sure. Counting back three full 24 hour days puts the crucifixion at Wednesday with His death that afternoon. I have read that the only year that allows for this is 26 AD/CE and if you figure in Herod's death at 3 BC/BCE and Yeshua's birth at 6 BC/BCE then 26 AD would be about right.

Shalom,

Avi

[avi5207]

The 10th day would have been the previous Friday. Friday evening to Shabbat Evening is day 1. Shabbat eve to Sunday eve is day 2. Sunday eve to Monday eve is day 3. Monday eve to Tuesday eve is day 4. Yeshua ate the Passover Tuesday evening or the eve of Wednesday was later arrested imprisoned etc.,. then finally crucified Wednesday morning at 9 AM. Died at about 3 PM buried in Joesph's tomb nearby hurriedly before the eve of the first day of unleavened bread. Remember it was both Joseph of Aramanthea � and Nicodemus that purchased the oils & spices for Yeshua's burial. So with this time schedule it is entirely possible and even most probable. Your schedule of events falls in line with what the Catholic Church believes by the way. Are you saying they got this right? I suppose we are just not going to agree on this issue. Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes on this and all the other false rabbinic stuff you and those that agree with you believe. Remember I was a Messianic before I started to study rabbinic Judaism and it was rabbinic Judaism that led me to reject Yeshua as Messiah. I made full conversion in 92 including a ha tataf dom bris and mikvah with two witnesses. I spent nearly 14 years like this so I know the dangerous road you all are walking,

Shabbat Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 4:24 PM, Israel wrote:

R. Daniel:

I have time to list one, perhaps the thread that will unravel the whole thing for you:

"He entered Jerusalem on a colt with the garments (Mark 11:11)"

Jeremiah 17:21
'Thus says the LORD, " Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any load on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem.

"You shall not bring a load out of your houses on the sabbath day ^(E)nor do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers.

Now if Jeremiah is a true prophet, and not adding to the Torah, then where in the Torah do we find a prohibition to carry a load through the gates on Shabbat?� For if Jeremiah is correct, and if you are correct that Yeshua rode the donkey with the coat through the gates of Jerusalem, and it was Pesach as you assert, where no work can be done, including one's donkey, then Yeshua is a sinner at best (and not the Messiah), and a false prophet at worst.

I look forward to your answer as to where you believe in Torah that Jeremiah has the justification to make such a bold claim concerning the prohibition on carrying through the gates on Shabbat, without adding or subtracting from the Torah.

Shabbat Shalom!

Israel

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[Bryce Henderson]

I believe you missed the main point Israel was making. It isn't the riding the donkey he was focussing on, but rather the carrying of the garments.

Mar 11:7 They brought the colt to Jesus and put their coats on it; and He sat on it.

[Daniel Crouch]

Luke 13:15

"Hypocrite! Does not EACH ONE of you on Shabbat LOOSE his ox or his donkey from the stable and goes and waters it?".

Apparently the halachic ruling in Yeshua's time was that one COULD loose a donkey on Shabbat.

And what of the 10th day of the first month, if it did fall on Shabbat.  Was one NOT to lead the lamb in to begin to examine it?  Examining the Lamb was not "regular work", but a commandment that supersedes the regular commandment.  Just like saving life, or healing as Messiah did in the verse above, supersedes MEN's interpretations about what "regular work" is.

That's another pharisee reach, to say that loosing grave clothes broke the Sabbath, especially given that He rose just at the moment Shabbat ended.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:51:33 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

[Daniel Crouch]

Really?  You think a coat on a donkey is a LOAD?
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 5:50:39 PM

[Bryce Henderson]

How many grams must an object weigh before it is considered a load?

[Daniel Crouch]

Then don't wear your clothes...

by your definitions, you are breaking the Sabbath!
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 6:05:45 PM

[Bryce Henderson]

The text says that they put their cloaks on the animal, so that implies that there were several cloaks. Further, there is no prohibition against wearing clothing on Shabbat. The prohibition is on carrying items.

[avi5207]

Strictly rabbinic custom and not Torah!

Shalom,

Avi

[avi5207]

Amen again!

On 4/22/2011 5:54 PM, Daniel Crouch wrote:

Luke 13:15

"Hypocrite! Does not EACH ONE of you on Shabbat LOOSE his ox or his donkey from the stable and goes and waters it?".

Apparently the halachic ruling in Yeshua's time was that one COULD loose a donkey on Shabbat.

And what of the 10th day of the first month, if it did fall on Shabbat. οΏ½Was one NOT to lead the lamb in to begin to examine it? οΏ½Examining the Lamb was not "regular work", but a commandment that supersedes the regular commandment. οΏ½Just like saving life, or healing as Messiah did in the verse above, supersedes MEN's interpretations about what "regular work" is.

That's another pharisee reach, to say that loosing grave clothes broke the Sabbath, especially given that He rose just at the moment Shabbat ended.

οΏ½

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''HοΏ½

οΏ½

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:51:33 PM
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Well here's one:

John 20:7 οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½

From the greek word "tulisso" which means to entwine, wind, or wrap - a malacha which is forbidden on Shabbat.

John 20:7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.

They found his face-cloth (most likely his tallit) wrapped up in a separated place apart from the burial wrappings.

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Rabbi - What are some of the ways He would have transgressed Shabbat if that were indeed true?

On 2011-04-22, at 10:03 AM, Yoseph ben Gershon wrote:

> 3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate. οΏ½Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon. οΏ½That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat. οΏ½The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance. οΏ½Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy. οΏ½It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

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[avi5207]

Yeah Daniel didn't you know we are all supposed to walk around nude on the Sabbath lest we dare risk violating the rabbi's laws... oh but then if we walked around nude we would violate YHVH's Law wouldn't we?

Shalom,

Avi

[janice gorbacz]

I am so tired of reading these arguments of late eg. on circumcision, on the Messiah's death and ressurrection etc.  The main gist of these matters is Torah observance, the Messiah - what his life, death and ressurrection means to all of us.  Continual arguing misses the point, becomes confusing, and a waste of time and internet space for more fruitful Scriptural teaching.  I personally do not want to get hung-up on trivial detail.

Shalom,

Jan

---

From: Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sat, 23 April, 2011 9:11:47 AM

[julius batalla]

Hi Janice,

You might not find this important now, actually you have 3 options, unsubscribe, delete or just ignore the email. I suggest that you ignore.  Later you'll find it handy as you grow in the knowledge of our Lord, our Messiah. Along the way you'll find one thing that will tickle you or arouse your curiosity, how knows that the answer to your question lies inside your "wooden box".

I got a wonderful time digging on some old stuffs and find it amazingly cool this holiday.

Peace

regards, julius

[Israel]

So Jeremiah is a rabbinic adding to Torah?

[Israel]

Rabbi Daniel,

How do you define the "any work" that one's animal is commanded to cease from:

Exodus 20:10
 ויום השביעי שבת ליהוה אלהיך לא-תעשה כל-מלאכה אתה ובנך-ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשר בשעריך

do not do any malachah...your animal...

Is malachah an arbitrary definition?

Deuteronomy 5:14
 ויום השביעי שבת ליהוה אלהיך לא תעשה כל-מלאכה אתה ובנך-ובתך ועבדך-ואמתך ושורך וחמרך וכל-בהמתך וגרך אשר בשעריך למען ינוח עבדך ואמתך כמוך

do not do any malachah...your donkey...

Rabbi, where do we find malachah defined in the Torah?

Exodus 31:14
 ושמרתם את-השבת כי קדש הוא לכם מחלליה מות יומת כי כל-העשה בה מלאכה ונכרתה הנפש ההוא מקרב עמיה

Regarding the Sabbath, this verse appears immediately after all the "malachah" described and commanded for the building of the tabernacle! The mere juxtaposition of this warning to not do "any malachah in it (the Shabbat)" teaches that Israel was to cease from doing the malachah of building even the Tabernacle itself on Shabbat!

As it is written:

Exodus 31:5
 ובחרשת אבן למלאת ובחרשת עץ לעשות בכל-מלאכה
in cutting of stones for setting, and in carving of wood, to work in all malachah...

The Torah clearly teaches us what it defines as malachah. It's found in all instructions and recollections of the work, the malachah, of the Tabernacle! Such as:

Exodus 35:2
ששת ימים תעשה מלאכה וביום השביעי יהיה לכם קדש שבת שבתון ליהוה כל-העשה בו מלאכה יומת

Six says you shall do all malachah and on the seventh day it will be to you a holy Shabbat of Shabbats to Adonai, any one who does malachah on it shall die.

Again, the prohibition of work on Shabbat, just before the description of the work of the Tabernacle (juxtapositions do actually MEAN something in a divinely inspired work of G-d, so you have to ask yourself "why is the prohibition to work on Shabbat again repeated just prior to the list of all the work on the Tabernacle?") As we see here a few verses later the use of the word "malachah" as if Torah is trying to teach us something important about its definition of the word:


Exodus 35:21
ויבאו כל-איש אשר-נשאו לבו וכל אשר נדבה רוחו אתו הביאו את-תרומת יהוה למלאכת אהל מועד ולכל-עבדתו ולבגדי הקדש

...brought it...for the malachot of the Tent of Meeting (tabernacle)...

brought - to carry (not wear) to bring something... is malachah.



but just in case our english-only readers need to see it too:

Ex 35:
 1Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, "These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do:

 2"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

 3"You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."

 4Moses spoke to all the congregation of the sons of Israel, saying, "This is the thing which the LORD has commanded, saying,

 5'Take from among you a contribution to the LORD; whoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it as the LORD'S contribution: gold, silver, and bronze,

 6 and blue, purple and scarlet material, fine linen, goats' hair,


already we see two things juxtaposed immediately to the warning to not work (do any malachah) on the Sabbath:

kindle a fire: this is directly stated. But the continuing juxtaposition and no break in the Torah texts teaches us to continue looking for further definitions of malachah... as explained above it's not just (a single) malachah that we are to not do on Shabbat, but all malachah, meaning more than one. Thus Torah leads us to keep searching from "kindle a fire" for more malachah, as this is only ONE act of malacha, so what are the others? As if to teach us that we are to look at the following text as just as direct and prohibitive as "you shall not kindle a fire" on the Sabbath, the following malacha is described in context and juxtaposition:

bring it: The act of bringing something (from one domain to another, ie from one's private domain (ie his possession) to the public domain (the place where the tabernacle was being constructed):

v23 Every man, who had in his possession blue and purple and scarlet material and fine linen and goats' hair and rams' skins dyed red and porpoise skins, brought them.

v25 All the skilled women spun with their hands, and brought what they had spun, in blue and purple and scarlet material and in fine linen.

spinning (material, fine linen) The Torah teaches us by juxtaposition to the warning to not do any work on Shabbat, that this act too is in the category of prohibited "any" malachah on Shabbat.

v27 The rulers brought the onyx stones and the stones for setting for the ephod and for the breastpiece...

setting (permanently) is also juxtaposed here in a continuing list of work... and in case we forgot it's malachah or dispute its inclusion, well just read on:

Exodus 35:33
 ובחרשת אבן למלאת ובחרשת עץ לעשות בכל-מלאכת מחשבת

v33 (speaking of Betzalel being filled with the Spirit for wisdom etc...) and in the cutting of stones for settings and in the carving of wood, so as to perform in every inventive malachah.

cutting is another malachach clearly shown here. yet R. Daniel you said the people cut palm branches on a Shabbat for the Messiah's return? Either the people sinned then, or it wasn't a Shabbat.

Therefore Torah teaches us that all of the work that Betzalel did (or oversaw and thus responsible for, which was the work of the entire Tabernacle) is called "chol malcahah" - all malachah - all work. At this point, we'd have to forcibly ignore the point Torah is trying to make in teaching us what malacha is and go our own way in order to continue to refuse any possible connection or divinely inspired reason for all this juxtaposition to a passage that literally begins with a warning to not perform "chol malachah" on Shabbat. Coincidence? Not with G-d.  Torah tells us by this juxtaposition clearly what malachah is, and specifically it's the actions done in the preprations and building of the Tabernacle. So how does a your donkey not perform chol malachah on Shabbat? Well, for starters, it's not allowed to "bring" anything from one's private domain to a public domain... and this includes from your possession through the gates (the eruv) of Jerusalem. Thus Jeremiah was not adding to Torah.

Next, Messiah can't make a man much less make a donkey carry garments of clothing through the gates on Shabbat or else he too would be transgressing the very Torah of Moshe (for donkeys are also given Shabbat rest, as well as every animal!). For if Moshe and the people of Israel and their animals rested from malachah (as defined as the work going into building of the Tabernacle) on Shabbat, how much more so then Messiah (the Prophet like Moshe) would also rest from the malachach derived therein and not make a donkey carry garments through the gates of Jerusalem on a day where no malachah is to be done... even for a donkey! If he did break such, then he would be making the work of a donkey carrying garments through the gates of Jerusalem as more important than the building of the Tabernacle itself - a work that even Moshe rested from (so then how can Yeshua be a prophet like Moshe if he did the opposite)! Yet in the narrative given of the Messiah's entry into Jerusalem, there is no Torah allowance for such willful violation if in fact it was a Shabbat as you assert R. Daniel! Therefore one hsa to conclude that it was a violation, or that it wasn't Shabbat, and I'm not about to stand on the side that it was a violation (and thus it was a Shabbat)!

You have to define malachach first, R. Daniel, according to how Torah defines it (and we learn what malachah is from the work of the building of the Tabernacle) before you can clearly say that it was a Shabbat on his entry when people cut palm branches, and that Messiah allowed the donkey he was riding on to bring garments through the gates of Jerusalem, and yet wasn't violating the prohibition of malachah on that day.

If I'm wrong about the reason for the juxtaposition in Torah for the prohibition on malachah as relating in any way to the work done in the building of the Tabernacle, then please explain the juxtaposition.

Shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

Interesting to note:

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:49 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The 10th day would have been the previous Friday. Friday evening to Shabbat Evening is day 1. Shabbat eve to Sunday eve is day 2. Sunday eve to Monday eve is day 3. Monday eve to Tuesday eve is day 4. Yeshua ate the Passover Tuesday evening or the eve of Wednesday was later arrested imprisoned etc.,. then finally crucified Wednesday morning at 9 AM. Died at about 3 PM buried in Joesph's tomb nearby hurriedly before the eve of the first day of unleavened bread. Remember it was both Joseph of Aramanthea   and Nicodemus that purchased the oils & spices for Yeshua's burial. So with this time schedule it is entirely possible and even most probable. Your schedule of events falls in line with what the Catholic Church believes by the way. Are you saying they got this right?

I was thinking about this the other day, and well, it actually makes sense. I don't think most Catholics can fit the Church's stance on this into a literal three day calendar... but the fact that the oldest continually existing recorded sect of Christianity holds to this viewpoint, lends some credibility to the idea that the Jewish understanding of time as presented in these threads concerning the death and resurrection of our Messiah may be correct. They may not understand the conclusion, or share the same reasons for supporting it, but apparently we (Jewish inclusivists) do share the same conclusion with them concerning the day of his death, and his resurrection. As I am fond of saying, truth is truth no matter who says it. Whoever says a truthful fact has no bearing on the truth itself, and we should therefore give all viewpoints the benefit of the doubt until a better argument comes along to disprove them.
 

I suppose we are just not going to agree on this issue. Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes on this and all the other false rabbinic stuff you and those that agree with you believe.

Just remember that I say the same here concerning your wariness of anything "rabbinic."
 

Remember I was a Messianic before I started to study rabbinic Judaism and it was rabbinic Judaism that led me to reject Yeshua as Messiah. I made full conversion in 92 including a ha tataf dom bris and mikvah with two witnesses. I spent nearly 14 years like this so I know the dangerous road you all are walking,

Bear in mind that I say this with all respect to you and others who have "tread" that road (past tense).

Let me first say that I know many friends who have gone over to unbelieving sects of Judaism and renounced faith in Messiah Yeshua. And I know why, and I know the arguments and reasons for it. At those times, I was unprepared with the answers I have now. Since I have had the answers, I have not lost a single friend since (assuming one gives me the time of day to answer some important questions about what the Torah has to say about Messiah).

When one has solid Torah foundation in Messianic apologetics to be able to argue any and all points about Messiah and what he taught and did, and what his disciples taught and did, all from the Torah alone - using "rabbinic" methods of argumentation, then there is little to "fear" in accepting halacha as taught by the Sages. After all, the reason one is duped into rejecting Yeshua as Messiah s usually because foundation in the Torah understanding of Messiah was never built. And often, we understand the halacha better than the unbelieving community of Israel more so since we can actually see how halacha relates to our relationship WITH Messiah (and thus the Torah from which it is derived)! After all, an unbelieving "rabbinic" Jew only has the Torah as their means to get you to agree with their viewpoint on Messiah - or arguments outside of Torah (which should be your warning flag anyways). If you don't know how to counter their arguments from Torah alone and get them to see the truth as Torah presents it, using their arguments and rules of interpretation, then you have lost before you have even opened your mouth or opened your ear to them, as such people without foundation are easy prey for the deception and sleight of mind that results. Stick around here, and get grounded. Your fear of blindly accepting "rabbinic" argumentation is well founded for newcomers, and for yourself. For as long as one refuses to use the rules of interpretation of Torah (as even understood by the rabbis), then one will continue to find themselves in that place of either accepting their worldview about Messiah based on a sad but truly prophesied ignorance of Torah concerning the matter, or the standard Christian worldview of Messiah based on traditional Christian ignorance, or willful rebellion; and the danger of one creating such disciples as a result is high.  I instead choose to argue for our Messiah based on rules of interpretation as found in the Torah and confirmed by the Sages, and the undestanding that is derived therein; and so far the fruit has been more beautiful and prosperous and enlightening and glorifying of Messiah Yeshua than I could ever have imagined - and has led (with the help of the Spirit of G-d of course) several orthodox Jews I know personally to Yeshua as the Messiah.

Knowing what I know now, by rejecting "rabbinic" Judaism in order to prove Yeshua is Messiah, I believe and have seen, is arguing perceived truths of Torah from a declared position of weakness and willful ignorance. It is a stance that only leads one further away from the truth of Torah as it relates to Messiah, and thus isolates further from us the very community of "messianics" we are called to reach: those of the "circumcision" who do not yet know Mashiach Yeshua. Such a stance is ultimately grossly rebellious, prideful, even though it stems from an overprotective view of our faith which should be grounded in true Torah apologetics anyways, and makes it all the more difficult for them to join us. But that is why JC was created: to bring us all together to discuss these very things, so we can grow from a position of strength to an even stronger position of strength, so that our witness is make more sure, more secure, and unavoidably loud.

Shalom,

Israel

Shabbat Shalom,

Avi

[avi5207]

No I'm not saying anything like that Israel. Jeremiah is not talking about carrying a cloak but heavy work loads in and out of the gates come on use some common sense here. Wake up and smell the coffee or something. Your argument is just plain unreasonable and the Torah is anything but unreasonable and in fact the Torah Moshe is easy to follow, in fact, practical to follow in every sense. Rabbinic oral law is the opposite and is the laws not even our fathers could follow mentioned in Acts I believe.

Shalom,

Avi

[avi5207]

You know Israel one thing I do understand is the fact that God would not give instructions to men that men could not comprehend or follow without the aide of a teacher. (John 14:26, 1st John 2:27) Now I know that there are those that need a teacher as teaching is one of the Spiritual gifts given by YHVH for the edification of the body of Messiah. Know also that those that reject Yeshua as the Son of God DO NOT have the Holy Spirit in them nor the Torah written in their hearts nor the gift of teaching! The Torah as given through Moshe was given to Israel in plain and easy to understand terms. To love YHVH is to want to know His Word as you don't have the Father without the Son or the Son without the Father. To love YHVH means you will learn His Laws seeking always the right way to walk them out in your life. Consider what Paul says to Timothy:

• �Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.(2Ti 2:14-26)

I will admit that some of the explanations that some rabbis have given are indeed beneficial but there are so many places where rabbinic argument only clouds the truth. If you honestly think you can trust in the words of men over the Words of God then I suppose there is little hope you will recover Israel from the snare of the devil that I perceive you to be in right now. Honestly, things like how often one must pray each day to satisfy a supposed requirement of the Torah is burdensome. To require that a man put on his right shoe before his left or say certain bruchas (blessings) at almost every waking moment is burdensome and leaves little time for� one to live the life they were given by God.� These are all classic examples of works righteousness Israel and no man can make himself righteous enough through observing the Law (Is. 64:6) but rather one must trust in the work of faith that Yeshua has already accomplished through the sacrifice of His life for us and in our place.

• Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.(Rom 3:19-28)
  

Are we to abandon the Torah Moshe? God forbid we by faith in Yeshua establish it since our faith in Him is the very thing that makes us clean and acceptable. (Rom. 3:31, Phil. 3:9) With true faith comes a willing heart to learn and obey the Heavenly Father. With true faith comes the gift of the Ruach (Holy Spirit) ha kodesh whereby we receive the Torah in our hearts and now cry Abba Father. (Rom. 8:15) The oral Torah better known as 'the traditions of men' is what Yeshua came to show as false doctrine. (Matt. 15:1-20) Paul called all this that you honor and cherish 'dung'! (Phil. 3) The oral Torah AKA the traditions of men is what Paul is actually warning the Colossians against. You should read chapter 2 very carefully as he states this plainly twice! Are there some good things to be found in the oral Torah I suppose yes would be the truthful and correct answer just like I suppose there are some nuggets to be found in a gold laden field also mined with anti-personnel mines. The only problem is knowing where to dig and more importantly where not to dig! I mean you no personal disrespect Israel although some of what I say here may sound harsh and disparaging it is meant for correction and edification of the body. Please pray about what is said here and let the Spirit of peace minister to your heart and mind.

Shalom,

Avi�

On 4/24/2011 4:19 AM, Israel wrote:

Interesting to note:

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:49 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The 10th day would have been the previous Friday. Friday evening to Shabbat Evening is day 1. Shabbat eve to Sunday eve is day 2. Sunday eve to Monday eve is day 3. Monday eve to Tuesday eve is day 4. Yeshua ate the Passover Tuesday evening or the eve of Wednesday was later arrested imprisoned etc.,. then finally crucified Wednesday morning at 9 AM. Died at about 3 PM buried in Joesph's tomb nearby hurriedly before the eve of the first day of unleavened bread. Remember it was both Joseph of Aramanthea � and Nicodemus that purchased the oils & spices for Yeshua's burial. So with this time schedule it is entirely possible and even most probable. Your schedule of events falls in line with what the Catholic Church believes by the way. Are you saying they got this right?

I was thinking about this the other day, and well, it actually makes sense. I don't think most Catholics can fit the Church's stance on this into a literal three day calendar... but the fact that the oldest continually existing recorded sect of Christianity holds to this viewpoint, lends some credibility to the idea that the Jewish understanding of time as presented in these threads concerning the death and resurrection of our Messiah may be correct. They may not understand the conclusion, or share the same reasons for supporting it, but apparently we (Jewish inclusivists) do share the same conclusion with them concerning the day of his death, and his resurrection. As I am fond of saying, truth is truth no matter who says it. Whoever says a truthful fact has no bearing on the truth itself, and we should therefore give all viewpoints the benefit of the doubt until a better argument comes along to disprove them.

�

I suppose we are just not going to agree on this issue. Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes on this and all the other false rabbinic stuff you and those that agree with you believe.

Just remember that I say the same here concerning your wariness of anything "rabbinic."

�

Remember I was a Messianic before I started to study rabbinic Judaism and it was rabbinic Judaism that led me to reject Yeshua as Messiah. I made full conversion in 92 including a ha tataf dom bris and mikvah with two witnesses. I spent nearly 14 years like this so I know the dangerous road you all are walking,

Bear in mind that I say this with all respect to you and others who have "tread" that road (past tense).

Let me first say that I know many friends who have gone over to unbelieving sects of Judaism and renounced faith in Messiah Yeshua. And I know why, and I know the arguments and reasons for it. At those times, I was unprepared with the answers I have now. Since I have had the answers, I have not lost a single friend since (assuming one gives me the time of day to answer some important questions about what the Torah has to say about Messiah).

When one has solid Torah foundation in Messianic apologetics to be able to argue any and all points about Messiah and what he taught and did, and what his disciples taught and did, all from the Torah alone - using "rabbinic" methods of argumentation, then there is little to "fear" in accepting halacha as taught by the Sages. After all, the reason one is duped into rejecting Yeshua as Messiah s usually because foundation in the Torah understanding of Messiah was never built. And often, we understand the halacha better than the unbelieving community of Israel more so since we can actually see how halacha relates to our relationship WITH Messiah (and thus the Torah from which it is derived)! After all, an unbelieving "rabbinic" Jew only has the Torah as their means to get you to agree with their viewpoint on Messiah - or arguments outside of Torah (which should be your warning flag anyways). If you don't know how to counter their arguments from Torah alone and get them to see the truth as Torah presents it, using their arguments and rules of interpretation, then you have lost before you have even opened your mouth or opened your ear to them, as such people without foundation are easy prey for the deception and sleight of mind that results. Stick around here, and get grounded. Your fear of blindly accepting "rabbinic" argumentation is well founded for newcomers, and for yourself. For as long as one refuses to use the rules of interpretation of Torah (as even understood by the rabbis), then one will continue to find themselves in that place of either accepting their worldview about Messiah based on a sad but truly prophesied ignorance of Torah concerning the matter, or the standard Christian worldview of Messiah based on traditional Christian ignorance, or willful rebellion; and the danger of one creating such disciples as a result is high.� I instead choose to argue for our Messiah based on rules of interpretation as found in the Torah and confirmed by the Sages, and the undestanding that is derived therein; and so far the fruit has been more beautiful and prosperous and enlightening and glorifying of Messiah Yeshua than I could ever have imagined - and has led (with the help of the Spirit of G-d of course) several orthodox Jews I know personally to Yeshua as the Messiah.

Knowing what I know now, by rejecting "rabbinic" Judaism in order to prove Yeshua is Messiah, I believe and have seen, is arguing perceived truths of Torah from a declared position of weakness and willful ignorance. It is a stance that only leads one further away from the truth of Torah as it relates to Messiah, and thus isolates further from us the very community of "messianics" we are called to reach: those of the "circumcision" who do not yet know Mashiach Yeshua. Such a stance is ultimately grossly rebellious, prideful, even though it stems from an overprotective view of our faith which should be grounded in true Torah apologetics anyways, and makes it all the more difficult for them to join us. But that is why JC was created: to bring us all together to discuss these very things, so we can grow from a position of strength to an even stronger position of strength, so that our witness is make more sure, more secure, and unavoidably loud.

Shalom,

Israel

Shabbat Shalom,

Avi

[Israel]

Avi:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 4:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

No I'm not saying anything like that Israel. Jeremiah is not talking about carrying a cloak but heavy work loads in and out of the gates come on use some common sense here. Wake up and smell the coffee or something. Your argument is just plain unreasonable and the Torah is anything but unreasonable and in fact the Torah Moshe is easy to follow, in fact, practical to follow in every sense. Rabbinic oral law is the opposite and is the laws not even our fathers could follow mentioned in Acts I believe.

Avi,

Heavy work loads? I am confused. Where is this the limiting factor mentioned anywhere in the verse in Jeremiah, or even in the Torah, concerning the prohibition on carrying anything through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath? Notice it is not I who is adding to the scripture here. And if weight is truly a limiting factor, then at what weight does it become heavy vs light? Is it arbitrary? Is anything that G-d commands us arbitrary, or even relative? If it's a prohibition, shouldn't we then know how much weight is too heavy and thus a transgression? What Torah do you have to back up your belief that it's weight related? It would seem that such a viewpoint would nullify the prohibition on holding to unjust weighs and measures, as then one could say "it's not heavy for me" whereas another could judge that it is heavy - who would be right? You say the Torah of Moshe is easy to follow, yet "heavy" is not defined, and thus if this is Torat Moshe, then your viewpoint on this prohibition is not easy to follow at all.

Shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 5:14 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

You know Israel one thing I do understand is the fact that God would not give instructions to men that men could not comprehend or follow without the aide of a teacher. (John 14:26, 1st John 2:27)

Avi, Hallel himself makes the point that one can not even learn the alephbeit unless one has a teacher. If learning the alephbeit requires a teacher, how much more so the rest of Torah which is written from the alephbeit?

Shalom,

Israel
 

Now I know that there are those that need a teacher as teaching is one of the Spiritual gifts given by YHVH for the edification of the body of Messiah. Know also that those that reject Yeshua as the Son of God DO NOT have the Holy Spirit in them nor the Torah written in their hearts nor the gift of teaching! The Torah as given through Moshe was given to Israel in plain and easy to understand terms. To love YHVH is to want to know His Word as you don't have the Father without the Son or the Son without the Father. To love YHVH means you will learn His Laws seeking always the right way to walk them out in your life. Consider what Paul says to Timothy:

•  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.(2Ti 2:14-26)

I will admit that some of the explanations that some rabbis have given are indeed beneficial but there are so many places where rabbinic argument only clouds the truth. If you honestly think you can trust in the words of men over the Words of God

When the Torah disproves the words of men, I gladly reject the words of men. But until I learn what Torah says either way, I at least give those who Paul says are still the "keepers of the oracles of G-d" the benefit of the doubt concerning those very oracles until proven otherwise. I hope you would too. It's a much safer position.

then I suppose there is little hope you will recover Israel from the snare of the devil that I perceive you to be in right now. Honestly, things like how often one must pray each day to satisfy a supposed requirement of the Torah is burdensome.

If prayer and submission to authorities is a Torah requirement, the Torah clearly teaches that it is not burdensome in the least. In which case, if it is, then either Torah is false, or our judgment is false.
 

To require that a man put on his right shoe before his left or say certain bruchas (blessings) at almost every waking moment is burdensome and leaves little time for  one to live the life they were given by God.

Not if it teaches us about Messiah, unless of course being continually reminded about Messiah is a burden...
 

  These are all classic examples of works righteousness Israel and no man can make himself righteous enough through observing the Law (Is. 64:6) but rather one must trust in the work of faith that Yeshua has already accomplished through the sacrifice of His life for us and in our place.

• Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.(Rom 3:19-28)
  

Are we to abandon the Torah Moshe? God forbid we by faith in Yeshua establish it since our faith in Him is the very thing that makes us clean and acceptable. (Rom. 3:31, Phil. 3:9) With true faith comes a willing heart to learn and obey the Heavenly Father. With true faith comes the gift of the Ruach (Holy Spirit) ha kodesh whereby we receive the Torah in our hearts and now cry Abba Father. (Rom. 8:15) The oral Torah better known as 'the traditions of men' is what Yeshua came to show as false doctrine. (Matt. 15:1-20)

Yeshua never said the "oral Torah" was the traditions of men. The oral Torah came first, and then the written. As it is written "the Word of the L-rd came to Moshe and said..." This is the true order. What some call traditions of men, when truly contradicting Torah, is then not oral Torah at all.

Paul called all this that you honor and cherish 'dung'! (Phil. 3) The oral Torah AKA the traditions of men is what Paul is actually warning the Colossians against. You should read chapter 2 very carefully as he states this plainly twice! Are there some good things to be found in the oral Torah I suppose yes would be the truthful and correct answer just like I suppose there are some nuggets to be found in a gold laden field also mined with anti-personnel mines. The only problem is knowing where to dig and more importantly where not to dig! I mean you no personal disrespect Israel although some of what I say here may sound harsh and disparaging it is meant for correction and edification of the body. Please pray about what is said here and let the Spirit of peace minister to your heart and mind.

Shalom,

Avi 

With all love and shalom my friend, I encourage you to keep asking your questions and responding to ours. :)

Shabbat Shalom v'Chag Sameach,

Israel

[Kosta Guyer]

 

Accusation

Since many  claim that

PaRDeS or the 4 levels of Hebraic interpretation are necessary to understand

Messiah, then those same 4 levels also define 39 violations of Shabbat, separate dishes for milk and meat,

separate utensils for eating, and other such

halachic/legal rules. If Messianics are going to use the so

called

PaRDeS, then in order to be consistent, they must follow all the other diverse rabbinic

interpretations like not driving on Shabbat and turning off lights on Shabbat, since they all come from the

PaRDeS

formula. Do all Messianics keep these rabbinic interpretations? If not, why not? They are the

result of

PaRDeS.

Truth

Not at all. The four levels of

PaRDeS are basic Hebraic principles followed by all Hebrews for at

least 2,400 years. The rabbis did not invent this formula. They simply compiled it by observing how

YHWH revealed Himself in Scripture. These 4 levels appear in biblical and secular history, way before

the oral law outlined such things as 39 Shabbat violations, the forbidding of turning on lights on Shabbat

or starting a car on Shabbat, since those very conveniences did not appear until the dawn of the 20th

century, in the early 1900's CE. Nowhere does it state that anybody using or insisting on using

PaRDeS as

a means of revealing, and defending Yahshua from the Tanach, and Brit Chadashah is bound to keep all

these levels of Oral Law. This accusation is comical, when one considers that these modern appliances

and modes of transport did not even exist when the rabbis began to record the Oral Law in the early 200’s

CE. The anti-missionary is guilty of anachronism to an extreme degree. Any Messianic Believer can use

the 4 principals found in the Scriptures

57 themselves, without having to keep all the 30, 40, 80 or 100

levels of added Jewish law, which in most cases were added hundreds or even thousands of years after the

initial usage of

PaRDeS among Israel’s teachers. Daniel’s revelations certainly can be classified as

containing much

sod, drash, and remez. As an example YHWH told Daniel, that his book’s mysteries

were to be closed for and until future revelation.

58 Daniel did not keep 100 or 1000 levels of

understanding, and volumes of rabbinic

halacha/law, but did use the divinely given 4 basic levels of

Hebraic comprehension.

To say that HaAdon Yahshua did not use

sod is absurd, when one considers that as a Rabbi in

Matthew 13, He used 7 parables or

drashim, that revealed the secret or the sod, (plus the esoteric Gospel

of John and Revelation) and then Yahshua turns right around and attacks the already existing oral laws

before their actual recording in the Talmud by stating that the rabbinic traditions such as the washing of

hands with a prescribed blessing, and the justification of the stealing of material goods designated for

parental care by claiming it is an offering to YHWH, were all commandments of men that sought to

replace the Word of YHWH (Matthew 15:1-6).

15

Then there came to Yashua scribes

and Pharisees from Yerushalayim,

saying,

2

“Why do Your taught ones transgress

the tradition of the elders? For they do not

wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3

But He answering, said to them, “Why

do you also transgress the command of

Elohim

d because of your tradition?

4

“For Elohim has commanded, saying,

‘Respect your father and your mother,’

and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let

him be put to death.’

5

“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his

father or mother, “Whatever profit you

might have received from me has been

dedicated,”

6

is certainly released from respecting his

father or mother.’ So you have nullified the

command of Elohim by your tradition.
 

 Apparently the Messiah was able to actively and

consistently use the PRINCIPLES of PaRDeS, without following all the added levels of Oral Torah that

were birthed at lower levels from following PaRDeS. If He used PaRDeS, as did all the prophets, then

Messianics should be able to do likewise, and remain free from erroneous and added burdens of rabbinic

interpretation, which the New Testament idiomatically calls the “Burden Of The Law” (Oral Law) from

which Messiah has set us free.
 PaRDeS the meaning of this term

One of the facts that was well known, understood, accepted and practiced by ALL of Israel’s sages

from Moses, to the prophets, to the men of the Great Assembly, to the rabbis of the extended galut/exile,

was one overriding factor when it came to understanding the concept of Moshiach. That understanding lay

in a system of Hebraic interpretation that even the simple minded could use to glean all things important

and all things needed for deep comprehension in YHWH’s Word. That system of Hebraic understanding

used by all Hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of

PaRDeS

. PaRDeS stands for Pashat/Literal primary meaning, Remez/Hints in the text of something

deeper,

Drash/The added understanding that can only be gleaned by a story, riddle, or parable and the

deepest level

Sod/Secrets and mysteries, which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in the text,

which can and often do require many hours, weeks, months and in some cases even years to receive,

through the diligent study and meditation in YHWH’s Word.

Both the First and Second Covenants were written by Hebrews for Hebrews and as such employed

this method of

PaRDeS in all their writings, accounts and revelations. To approach the Set-Apart

Scriptures with any other mindset, is to set ones self up for failure, frustration, error and deception. Unlike

Christians and others, one cannot choose what method of understanding Scripture they are most familiar

or comfortable with. The Creator Himself set certain guidelines and failure to employ this system of

PaRDeS

, will leave one short of comprehension at best, or lost and damned at worst. Now here is where

the problem begins and ends. New Testament books such as John and Revelation can only be understood

at the deepest level of

Sod, for they reveal things kept hidden from the foundation of the world.

Major portions of Matthew can only be grasped by

drash, allegories, metaphors, and most often

by parables, which are part of the

drash level of comprehension. Rarely does anything Messianic come

out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading

. Even the methods that the New Testament uses to

quote from and to verify Old Testament Messianic prophetic fulfillment, often is recorded as partial

quotes, half quotes, cut and pasted quotes, altered quotes, paraphrased quotes and such. This type of

writing style and testimony is enough to drive any literalist crazy.

Furthermore this situation is complicated by the fact that sometimes the New Testament quotes the

LXX or Septuagint named after the 70 rabbis who translated the Hebrew Tanach in 250 BCE. Sometimes

it quotes the Masoretic or traditional Jewish texts of today. Sometimes it quotes neither and sometimes it

appears to quote things that are not even found in the literal plain contextual frame in which the Words

were first given.

Now what does one do? He or she if they are serious about pursuing YHWH, has no choice but to

accept things the way Hebrews always did. And that is that each verse of the Old Testament has at least 4

basic ways of being understood. All 4 basic ways are as legitimate in YHWH’s eyes as the other. Messiah

said over and over again in such places as Matthew 13, that His teachings are designed so as to cloak

them from the self righteous and hateful and reveal them to those who desire to receive Him. Since

YHWH never changes, the Tanach and Torah are also written in like manner, with Israel having personal

knowledge about YHWH considered so esoteric, that no other nation or people had it. O

NLY ISRAEL had

it. And if one insists that each verse only has a single level of understanding, which is the literal

contextual meaning, then one cannot understand the Creator and Revelator at all in either covenant, since

the Creator reveals Himself on His terms. One example is Genesis 1:1. In the literal understanding of the

text, the Almighty created all things. Period end of story! Simple enough. But is that the

ONLY message of

Genesis 1:1? Or is it deeper and if it is deeper, how much deeper?

Well on a hint level, YHWH is stating that it is not Elohim the Father who is Creator but He

specifies which part of Himself is Creator by stating that

ELOHIM ALEPH TAF is Creator, a fact affirmed

by Colossians 1:16. Or what does the “literal only” scholar do with Matthew 5:29-30? If we only take that

literally, we are left so bewildered and flabbergasted, that in ignorance we cut of our actual legs and arms

for Yahshua, since they have both been instruments of sin, at some point in time. Or perhaps we send

those limbs to Kim Jung Ill of North Korea, so we don’t have to face temptation anymore? He seems to

enjoy collecting human limbs anyway. Sound absurd?

Well here’s something even more absurd. Because folks are not willing to use

PaRDeS, the

accepted way to interpret all of Hebraic Scripture in both covenants for 3,500 years,

and since most

people refuse to go to the extreme of personal limb removal to stop profuse sinfulness, many find it far

easier to deny the New Testament and attribute it to fantasy or the crazed sayings of a narcissist Rabbi or

ego maniac.

Shalom Kosta

 

From -The Messianic Believer’s

First Response Handbook
 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:50:25 -0600

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[avi5207]

Israel is there anything in Torah that tells us what can be carried and what cannot? How do we know that the Jews laying out their cloaks were not putting down the ones they were wearing and who says this happened on a Sabbath? I've already explained how this could have happened on a Friday (10th day) making the evening of the following Tuesday (14th day) the night Yeshua ate the Passover. Later that night He is arrested then tried and by 9AM Wednesday Yeshua is being crucified. He dies that afternoon around 3PM is buried before dark allowing a full 3 days and 3 nights in the earth then is resurrected at or about dusk Saturday. This scenario is entirely possible. Why can't you admit that? Seriously Israel you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels here!

Shalom,

Avi

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[avi5207]

Well it is the responsibility of the father to teach Torah to his sons as the Torah says:

• Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. (Pro 22:6)

I assume a God fearing Israeli father would teach the basics including how to read and write in Hebrew to his son(s) as well as teach his son(s) a trade or apprentice them to a skilled tradesman so the son(s) could earn a living for themselves and their families. So then any male that has reached maturity and is of average intelligence should be able to study and apply Torah for themselves. The vast majority of Torah that applies to the average Jewish man is a 'no brainer'. Only those that insist on making things more complicated than necessary get involved in fruitless, pointless and endless arguments. Seriously Israel adultery, theft, murder, just weights etc.,. what's so hard about these Commandments to understand? Why does anyone need a teacher to explain these Commands? The vast majority of Torah is very simple for the average man to understand and apply in their daily walk. Everything else is specific to priests or women for the most part. Yeshua summed up God's simple to understand and follow code of conduct by saying that we must first love YHVH our Elohim with all that we are and do so by loving our fellow man also created in His image as much as we love ourselves. All the Torah and the prophets hang on these two Commands. Why does it have to be so complicated?

Shalom,

Avi�

On 4/24/2011 7:00 PM, Israel wrote:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 5:14 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

You know Israel one thing I do understand is the fact that God would not give instructions to men that men could not comprehend or follow without the aide of a teacher. (John 14:26, 1st John 2:27)

Avi, Hallel himself makes the point that one can not even learn the alephbeit unless one has a teacher. If learning the alephbeit requires a teacher, how much more so the rest of Torah which is written from the alephbeit?

Shalom,

Israel

�

Now I know that there are those that need a teacher as teaching is one of the Spiritual gifts given by YHVH for the edification of the body of Messiah. Know also that those that reject Yeshua as the Son of God DO NOT have the Holy Spirit in them nor the Torah written in their hearts nor the gift of teaching! The Torah as given through Moshe was given to Israel in plain and easy to understand terms. To love YHVH is to want to know His Word as you don't have the Father without the Son or the Son without the Father. To love YHVH means you will learn His Laws seeking always the right way to walk them out in your life. Consider what Paul says to Timothy:

• �Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.(2Ti 2:14-26)

I will admit that some of the explanations that some rabbis have given are indeed beneficial but there are so many places where rabbinic argument only clouds the truth. If you honestly think you can trust in the words of men over the Words of God

When the Torah disproves the words of men, I gladly reject the words of men. But until I learn what Torah says either way, I at least give those who Paul says are still the "keepers of the oracles of G-d" the benefit of the doubt concerning those very oracles until proven otherwise. I hope you would too. It's a much safer position.

then I suppose there is little hope you will recover Israel from the snare of the devil that I perceive you to be in right now. Honestly, things like how often one must pray each day to satisfy a supposed requirement of the Torah is burdensome.

If prayer and submission to authorities is a Torah requirement, the Torah clearly teaches that it is not burdensome in the least. In which case, if it is, then either Torah is false, or our judgment is false.

�

To require that a man put on his right shoe before his left or say certain bruchas (blessings) at almost every waking moment is burdensome and leaves little time for� one to live the life they were given by God.

Not if it teaches us about Messiah, unless of course being continually reminded about Messiah is a burden...

�

� These are all classic examples of works righteousness Israel and no man can make himself righteous enough through observing the Law (Is. 64:6) but rather one must trust in the work of faith that Yeshua has already accomplished through the sacrifice of His life for us and in our place.

• Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.(Rom 3:19-28)
  

Are we to abandon the Torah Moshe? God forbid we by faith in Yeshua establish it since our faith in Him is the very thing that makes us clean and acceptable. (Rom. 3:31, Phil. 3:9) With true faith comes a willing heart to learn and obey the Heavenly Father. With true faith comes the gift of the Ruach (Holy Spirit) ha kodesh whereby we receive the Torah in our hearts and now cry Abba Father. (Rom. 8:15) The oral Torah better known as 'the traditions of men' is what Yeshua came to show as false doctrine. (Matt. 15:1-20)

Yeshua never said the "oral Torah" was the traditions of men. The oral Torah came first, and then the written. As it is written "the Word of the L-rd came to Moshe and said..." This is the true order. What some call traditions of men, when truly contradicting Torah, is then not oral Torah at all.

Paul called all this that you honor and cherish 'dung'! (Phil. 3) The oral Torah AKA the traditions of men is what Paul is actually warning the Colossians against. You should read chapter 2 very carefully as he states this plainly twice! Are there some good things to be found in the oral Torah I suppose yes would be the truthful and correct answer just like I suppose there are some nuggets to be found in a gold laden field also mined with anti-personnel mines. The only problem is knowing where to dig and more importantly where not to dig! I mean you no personal disrespect Israel although some of what I say here may sound harsh and disparaging it is meant for correction and edification of the body. Please pray about what is said here and let the Spirit of peace minister to your heart and mind.

Shalom,

Avi�

With all love and shalom my friend, I encourage you to keep asking your questions and responding to ours. :)

Shabbat Shalom v'Chag Sameach,

Israel

[D Sanders]

Shalom Kosta,

 

You bring up some interesting topics. What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?

 

Is PaRDeS indeed the deepest levels of study or is there something yet deeper?

 

1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God's power and God's wisdom! ²⁵ For God's "nonsense" is wiser than humanity's "wisdom." And God's "weakness" is stronger than humanity's "strength." ²⁶ Just look at yourselves, brothers- look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world's standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. ²⁷ But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; ²⁸ and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; ²⁹ so that no one should boast before God. ³⁰ It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! ³¹ Therefore- as the Tanakh says- "Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about ADONAI."

 

It would seem that God's logic is different than man's logic.

 

1 Corinthians 2:4 and neither the delivery nor the content of my message relied on compelling words of "wisdom" but on a demonstration of the power of the Spirit, ⁵ so that your trust might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power. ⁶ Yet there is a wisdom that we are speaking to those who are mature enough for it. But it is not the wisdom of this world or of this world's leaders, who are in the process of passing away. ⁷ On the contrary, we are communicating a secret wisdom from God which has been hidden until now but which, before history began, God had decreed would bring us glory. ⁸ Not one of this world's leaders has understood it; because if they had, they would not have executed the Lord from whom this glory flows.

 

Who did Yeshua call “the world?” Who insisted that Yeshua be executed when Pilot wanted to let Him go?

 

John 15:18  "If the world hates you, understand that it hated me first.  ¹⁹ If you belonged to the world, the world would have loved its own. But because you do not belong to the world- on the contrary, I have picked you out of the world- therefore the world hates you.  ²⁰ Remember what I told you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours too.  ²¹ But they will do all this to you on my account, because they don't know the One who sent me.  ²² "If I had not come and spoken to them, they wouldn't be guilty of sin; but now, they have no excuse for their sin.  ²³ Whoever hates me hates my Father also.  ²⁴ If I had not done in their presence works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now, they have seen them and have hated both me and my Father.  ²⁵ But this has happened in order to fulfill the words in their Torah which read, 'They hated me for no reason at all.'

 

This is clearly speaking of the religious leaders who rejected their own Messiah and those who continue to reject Yeshua as their Messiah.

 

There is clearly a deeper level of understanding than what the “world leaders” can teach us (today we would call these “world leaders” the Talmudic and other “rabbis” who have rejected Messiah Yeshua).

 

1 Corinthians 2:12  Now we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit of God, so that we might understand the things God has so freely given us.  ¹³ These are the things we are talking about when we avoid the manner of speaking that human wisdom (obtained mentally through PaRDeS) would dictate and instead use a manner of speaking taught by the Spirit, by which we explain things of the Spirit to people who have the Spirit.  ¹⁴ Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God- to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit.  ¹⁵ But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him.  ¹⁶ For who has known the mind of ADONAI? Who will counsel him? But we have the mind of the Messiah!

 

The “rabbis” who have rejected their Messiah do not have the ability to understand the deeper things of the Ruach. Does Yeshua bear witness?

 

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;  ¹⁷ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

The Messiah rejecting “rabbis” do not have the Ruach and cannot receive Him in this way until they embrace Messiah Yeshua.

 

John 14:21  He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...  ²³ …If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.  ²⁴ He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.  ²⁵ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.  ²⁶ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

Are the “rabbis” supposed to teach us all things or is the Ruach? How about one more witness?

 

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.  ²³ Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledes the Son has the Father also.  ²⁴ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.  ²⁵ And this is the promise that he has promised us, even eternal life.  ²⁶ These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.  ²⁷ But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

 

Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua.

 

Matthew 23:8  But do not be called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah; and all you are brothers.

 

PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua’s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of YHVH.

 

Be Blessed,

 

Daniel

---

From: Kosta Guyer <ander...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 24, 2011 11:17:56 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

[XuS Casal]

   "What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?"
 

Personally, I see that word everywhere in hebrew writings, even today, and it indicates a direct object. It is difficult for me to imagine that in Gn 1:1 suddenly means other thing than that. But it could be the case.

 
   "Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua."
 

Don't forget that the same verse that tell us to not call Rabbi also command us to not call "father". Do we call "father" to our biological father? About Saducees and Phariseans Yeshua told us: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat [here the verse is talking of the Sanhedrin in that time; with Saducees and Phariseans]: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves  will not move them with one of their fingers.
Did Yeshua say: Don't listen to them at all, because they bind heavy burdens? No, what he said is: 'observe and do' what they state, but do not copy their hypocrisy. Because if we learn their ways and also copy their hypocrisy, then we are going to be sons of the hell.
 
Something interesting in this point is that: In the Sanhedrin were Saducees and Phariseans; not only Phariseans. Some denied the Oral Torah. Some accepted it. Yeshua seems to agree with the Phariseans of beit Hillel, and against the Phariseans of beit Shammai. Yeshua himself used many teachings of Hillel, that means that Yeshua himself was making valid these Oral teachings. Yeshua taught about resurrection like the Phariseans, opposed to Saducee teaching that there's no resurrection. It is something to keep in mind. In the Sanhedrin Phariseans and Saducees needed to reach agreements about the law. I think people here Needs to reach agreements also, and stop insulting the side that thinks different, and stop taking out of context some passages in the Bible to use them as a weapon against their brothers.
 
   "PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua’s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of Y***."
 
The Spirit of Holiness [Ruach haKodesh] is not something so mystical. We recieve it when we decide to stop sinning, when we decide to live in holiness. When we have Love. That's the Ruchah d'Kudsha (Spirit of Holiness). Something that lead us to understand the Torah in the way that we obey God. Is not something that replaces the teaching of a teacher. Remember that even in the time of Apostols, Teachers, Masters and Prophets were needed, and Paul himself was a Rabbi.
 
Shalom
-XuS- 
 

---

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 00:27:17 -0700
From: danielsa...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[avi5207]

On 4/25/2011 4:14 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

�� "What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?"
�

Personally, I see that word everywhere in hebrew writings, even today, and it indicates a direct object. It is difficult for me to imagine that in Gn 1:1 suddenly means other thing than that. But it could be the case.

�
�� "Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua."
�
Don't forget that the same verse that tell us to not call Rabbi also command us to not call "father". Do we call "father" to our biological father? About Saducees and Phariseans Yeshua told us: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat [here the verse is talking of the Sanhedrin in that time; with Saducees and Phariseans]: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves� will not move them with one of their fingers.

Actually Xus I think it best if we understand that when we are adopted into the family of God through faith in Yeshua His Father becomes our Father since we both have the Same Holy Spirit. By this one Holy Spirit we become one in mind, body, word and purpose although many diverse spiritual gifts are manifested broadly throughout the body of Messiah as He has seen fit to distribute them for the purpose of building up His bride and sustaining her. As I have pointed out by the same Spirit achi Daniel speaks of we inherit with Yeshua all that He has been given by the Father. His circumcision in His flesh now makes us part of the covenant. Muslims circumcise their daughters in ignorance not understanding that YHVH makes and keeps covenants only with men. It is therefore the man's circumcision or lack of circumcision that either benefits or hinders the woman he is head over. The male's circumcision (covenant) can only be made between a man and YHVH as YHVH will not violate His own Torah. In Numbers� 30 we are told that a woman cannot even enter a covenant with YHVH unless her Father, husband, brother or head allows it to stand. Without any boasting I humbly submit that this is an example of rightly dividing the Torah that only comes from the Spirit of God being in a man and it is for the lack of this Spirit in many on this board that such simple to understand concepts as covenant through circumcision is so difficult to comprehend. It is for the lack of this same Holy Spirit that all the rabbis of old that have rejected their brother in the flesh who is the prophet like unto Moshe are blind guides leading those that are also blind! If you follow these pretenders (rabbis) wisdom you become one with them who are by definition part of the anti-Messiah! As Daniel so correctly points out the rabbis you and so many on this board revere for their human wisdom are of the world and so cannot understand the things that only the Spirit of YHVH can reveal. Simply stated they and those that follow them are blind yet since they refuse to admit their blindness their sins are retained!

• And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.(John 9:39-41)

Did Yeshua say: Don't listen to them at all, because they�bind heavy burdens? No, what he said is:�'observe and do' what they state, but do not copy their hypocrisy. Because if we learn their ways and also copy their hypocrisy, then�we are going to be sons of the hell.

Xus another way to understand this verse is to understand that it was not the rabbis (Pharisees/Sadducees) that Yeshua was promoting and encouraging the Jewish people to follow but the Torah Moshe. This is witnessed in the Gospel accounts in several places where He states "Keep the Commandments" (Matt. 19:17)

�
Something interesting in this point is that: In the Sanhedrin were Saducees and Phariseans; not only Phariseans. Some denied the Oral Torah. Some accepted it. Yeshua seems to agree with the Phariseans of beit Hillel, and against the Phariseans of beit Shammai. Yeshua himself used many teachings of Hillel, that means that Yeshua himself was making valid these Oral teachings. Yeshua taught about resurrection like the Phariseans, opposed to Saducee teaching that there's no resurrection. It is something to keep in mind. In the Sanhedrin Phariseans and Saducees needed to reach agreements about the law. I think people here Needs to reach agreements also, and stop insulting the side that thinks different, and stop taking out of context some passages in the Bible to use them�as a weapon against their brothers.
�
�� "PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua�s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of Y***."
�
The Spirit of Holiness�[Ruach haKodesh] is not something so mystical. We recieve it when we decide to stop sinning, when we decide to live in holiness. When we have Love.�That's the Ruchah d'Kudsha (Spirit of Holiness). Something that�lead us to understand the�Torah in the way that we obey God. Is not something that replaces the�teaching of a teacher. Remember that even in the time of Apostols, Teachers, Masters and Prophets were needed, and Paul himself was a Rabbi.
�
Shalom
-XuS-�
�

Xus you only receive this Holy Spirit by faith in Yeshua not works of the Law if it were as you say then the unbelieving rabbis you follow would have the spirit of adoption and so eternal life but as it stands they will not be in the first resurrection but the second and so are like all unbelievers subject to the finality of the second death.�

Shalom,

Avi

---

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 00:27:17 -0700
From: danielsa...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Shalom Kosta,

�

You bring up some interesting topics. What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?

�

Is PaRDeS indeed the deepest levels of study or is there something yet deeper?

�

1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God's power and God's wisdom! ²⁵ For God's "nonsense" is wiser than humanity's "wisdom." And God's "weakness" is stronger than humanity's "strength." ²⁶ Just look at yourselves, brothers- look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world's standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. ²⁷ But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; ²⁸ and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; ²⁹ so that no one should boast before God. ³⁰ It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! ³¹ Therefore- as the Tanakh says- "Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about ADONAI."

�

It would seem that God's logic is different than man's logic.

�

1 Corinthians 2:4 and neither the delivery nor the content of my message relied on compelling words of "wisdom" but on a demonstration of the power of the Spirit, ⁵ so that your trust might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power. ⁶ Yet there is a wisdom that we are speaking to those who are mature enough for it. But it is not the wisdom of this world or of this world's leaders, who are in the process of passing away. ⁷ On the contrary, we are communicating a secret wisdom from God which has been hidden until now but which, before history began, God had decreed would bring us glory. ⁸ Not one of this world's leaders has understood it; because if they had, they would not have executed the Lord from whom this glory flows.

�

Who did Yeshua call �the world?� Who insisted that Yeshua be executed when Pilot wanted to let Him go?

�

John 15:18 �"If the world hates you, understand that it hated me first.� ¹⁹ If you belonged to the world, the world would have loved its own. But because you do not belong to the world- on the contrary, I have picked you out of the world- therefore the world hates you.� ²⁰ Remember what I told you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours too.� ²¹ But they will do all this to you on my account, because they don't know the One who sent me.� ²² "If I had not come and spoken to them, they wouldn't be guilty of sin; but now, they have no excuse for their sin.� ²³ Whoever hates me hates my Father also.� ²⁴ If I had not done in their presence works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now, they have seen them and have hated both me and my Father.� ²⁵ But this has happened in order to fulfill the words in their Torah which read, 'They hated me for no reason at all.'

�

This is clearly speaking of the religious leaders who rejected their own Messiah and those who continue to reject Yeshua as their Messiah.

�

There is clearly a deeper level of understanding than what the �world leaders� can teach us (today we would call these �world leaders� the Talmudic and other �rabbis� who have rejected Messiah Yeshua).

�

1 Corinthians 2:12 �Now we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit of God, so that we might understand the things God has so freely given us.� ¹³ These are the things we are talking about when we avoid the manner of speaking that human wisdom (obtained mentally through PaRDeS) would dictate and instead use a manner of speaking taught by the Spirit, by which we explain things of the Spirit to people who have the Spirit.� ¹⁴ Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God- to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit.� ¹⁵ But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him.� ¹⁶ For who has known the mind of ADONAI? Who will counsel him? But we have the mind of the Messiah!

�

The �rabbis� who have rejected their Messiah do not have the ability to understand the deeper things of the Ruach. Does Yeshua bear witness?

�

John 14:16 �And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;� ¹⁷ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

�

The Messiah rejecting �rabbis� do not have the Ruach and cannot receive Him in this way until they embrace Messiah Yeshua.

�

John 14:21 �He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...� ²³ �If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.� ²⁴ He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.� ²⁵ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.� ²⁶ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

�

Are the �rabbis� supposed to teach us all things or is the Ruach? How about one more witness?

�

1 John 2:22 �Who is a liar but he that denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.� ²³ Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledes the Son has the Father also.� ²⁴ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.� ²⁵ And this is the promise that he has promised us, even eternal life.� ²⁶ These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.� ²⁷ But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

�

Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua.

�

Matthew 23:8 �But do not be called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah; and all you are brothers.

�

PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua�s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of YHVH.

�

Be Blessed,

�

Daniel

---

From: Kosta Guyer <ander...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 24, 2011 11:17:56 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

�

Accusation

Since�many �claim that PaRDeS or the 4 levels of Hebraic interpretation are necessary to understand

Messiah, then those same 4 levels also define 39 violations of Shabbat, separate dishes for milk and meat,

separate utensils for eating, and other such halachic/legal rules. If Messianics are going to use the so

called PaRDeS, then in order to be consistent, they must follow all the other diverse rabbinic

interpretations like not driving on Shabbat and turning off lights on Shabbat, since they all come from the

PaRDeS formula. Do all Messianics keep these rabbinic interpretations? If not, why not? They are the

result of PaRDeS.

Truth

Not at all. The four levels of PaRDeS are basic Hebraic principles followed by all Hebrews for at

least 2,400 years. The rabbis did not invent this formula. They simply compiled it by observing how

YHWH revealed Himself in Scripture. These 4 levels appear in biblical and secular history, way before

the oral law outlined such things as 39 Shabbat violations, the forbidding of turning on lights on Shabbat

or starting a car on Shabbat, since those very conveniences did not appear until the dawn of the 20th

century, in the early 1900's CE. Nowhere does it state that anybody using or insisting on using PaRDeS as

a means of revealing, and defending Yahshua from the Tanach, and Brit Chadashah is bound to keep all

these levels of Oral Law. This accusation is comical, when one considers that these modern appliances

and modes of transport did not even exist when the rabbis began to record the Oral Law in the early 200�s

CE. The anti-missionary is guilty of anachronism to an extreme degree. Any Messianic Believer can use

the 4 principals found in the Scriptures57 themselves, without having to keep all the 30, 40, 80 or 100

levels of added Jewish law, which in most cases were added hundreds or even thousands of years after the

initial usage of PaRDeS among Israel�s teachers. Daniel�s revelations certainly can be classified as

containing much sod, drash, and remez. As an example YHWH told Daniel, that his book�s mysteries

were to be closed for and until future revelation.58 Daniel did not keep 100 or 1000 levels of

understanding, and volumes of rabbinic halacha/law, but did use the divinely given 4 basic levels of

Hebraic comprehension.

To say that HaAdon Yahshua did not use sod is absurd, when one considers that as a Rabbi in

Matthew 13, He used 7 parables or drashim, that revealed the secret or the sod, (plus the esoteric Gospel

of John and Revelation) and then Yahshua turns right around and attacks the already existing oral laws

before their actual recording in the Talmud by stating that the rabbinic traditions such as the washing of

hands with a prescribed blessing, and the justification of the stealing of material goods designated for

parental care by claiming it is an offering to YHWH, were all commandments of men that sought to

replace the Word of YHWH (Matthew 15:1-6).

15 Then there came to�Yashua scribes

and Pharisees from Yerushalayim,

saying,

2�Why do Your taught ones transgress

the tradition of the elders? For they do not

wash their hands when they eat bread.�

3But He answering, said to them, �Why

do you also transgress the command of

Elohim d because of your tradition?

4�For Elohim has commanded, saying,

�Respect your father and your mother,�

and, �He who curses father or mother, let

him be put to death.�

5�But you say, �Whoever says to his

father or mother, �Whatever profit you

might have received from me has been

dedicated,�

6is certainly released from respecting his

father or mother.� So you have nullified the

command of Elohim by your tradition.

�

�Apparently the Messiah was able to actively and

consistently use the PRINCIPLES of PaRDeS, without following all the added levels of Oral Torah that

were birthed at lower levels from following PaRDeS. If He used PaRDeS, as did all the prophets, then

Messianics should be able to do likewise, and remain free from erroneous and added burdens of rabbinic

interpretation, which the New Testament idiomatically calls the �Burden Of The Law� (Oral Law) from

which Messiah has set us free.

�PaRDeS the meaning of this term

One of the facts that was well known, understood, accepted and practiced by ALL of Israel�s sages

from Moses, to the prophets, to the men of the Great Assembly, to the rabbis of the extended galut/exile,

was one overriding factor when it came to understanding the concept of Moshiach. That understanding lay

in a system of Hebraic interpretation that even the simple minded could use to glean all things important

and all things needed for deep comprehension in YHWH�s Word. That system of Hebraic understanding

used by all Hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of

PaRDeS. PaRDeS stands for Pashat/Literal primary meaning, Remez/Hints in the text of something

deeper, Drash/The added understanding that can only be gleaned by a story, riddle, or parable and the

deepest level Sod/Secrets and mysteries, which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in the text,

which can and often do require many hours, weeks, months and in some cases even years to receive,

through the diligent study and meditation in YHWH�s Word.

Both the First and Second Covenants were written by Hebrews for Hebrews and as such employed

this method of PaRDeS in all their writings, accounts and revelations. To approach the Set-Apart

Scriptures with any other mindset, is to set ones self up for failure, frustration, error and deception. Unlike

Christians and others, one cannot choose what method of understanding Scripture they are most familiar

or comfortable with. The Creator Himself set certain guidelines and failure to employ this system of

PaRDeS, will leave one short of comprehension at best, or lost and damned at worst. Now here is where

the problem begins and ends. New Testament books such as John and Revelation can only be understood

at the deepest level of Sod, for they reveal things kept hidden from the foundation of the world.

Major portions of Matthew can only be grasped by drash, allegories, metaphors, and most often

by parables, which are part of the drash level of comprehension. Rarely does anything Messianic come

out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading. Even the methods that the New Testament uses to

quote from and to verify Old Testament Messianic prophetic fulfillment, often is recorded as partial

quotes, half quotes, cut and pasted quotes, altered quotes, paraphrased quotes and such. This type of

writing style and testimony is enough to drive any literalist crazy.

Furthermore this situation is complicated by the fact that sometimes the New Testament quotes the

LXX or Septuagint named after the 70 rabbis who translated the Hebrew Tanach in 250 BCE. Sometimes

it quotes the Masoretic or traditional Jewish texts of today. Sometimes it quotes neither and sometimes it

appears to quote things that are not even found in the literal plain contextual frame in which the Words

were first given.

Now what does one do? He or she if they are serious about pursuing YHWH, has no choice but to

accept things the way Hebrews always did. And that is that each verse of the Old Testament has at least 4

basic ways of being understood. All 4 basic ways are as legitimate in YHWH�s eyes as the other. Messiah

said over and over again in such places as Matthew 13, that His teachings are designed so as to cloak

them from the self righteous and hateful and reveal them to those who desire to receive Him. Since

YHWH never changes, the Tanach and Torah are also written in like manner, with Israel having personal

knowledge about YHWH considered so esoteric, that no other nation or people had it. ONLY ISRAEL had

it. And if one insists that each verse only has a single level of understanding, which is the literal

contextual meaning, then one cannot understand the Creator and Revelator at all in either covenant, since

the Creator reveals Himself on His terms. One example is Genesis 1:1. In the literal understanding of the

text, the Almighty created all things. Period end of story! Simple enough. But is that the ONLY message of

Genesis 1:1? Or is it deeper and if it is deeper, how much deeper?

Well on a hint level, YHWH is stating that it is not Elohim the Father who is Creator but He

specifies which part of Himself is Creator by stating that ELOHIM ALEPH TAF is Creator, a fact affirmed

by Colossians 1:16. Or what does the �literal only� scholar do with Matthew 5:29-30? If we only take that

literally, we are left so bewildered and flabbergasted, that in ignorance we cut of our actual legs and arms

for Yahshua, since they have both been instruments of sin, at some point in time. Or perhaps we send

those limbs to Kim Jung Ill of North Korea, so we don�t have to face temptation anymore? He seems to

enjoy collecting human limbs anyway. Sound absurd?

Well here�s something even more absurd. Because folks are not willing to use PaRDeS, the

accepted way to interpret all of Hebraic Scripture in both covenants for 3,500 years, and since most

people refuse to go to the extreme of personal limb removal to stop profuse sinfulness, many find it far

easier to deny the New Testament and attribute it to fantasy or the crazed sayings of a narcissist Rabbi or

ego maniac.

Shalom Kosta

�

From -The Messianic Believer�s

First Response Handbook
�

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:50:25 -0600
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Avi:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 4:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

No I'm not saying anything like that Israel. Jeremiah is not talking about carrying a cloak but heavy work loads in and out of the gates come on use some common sense here. Wake up and smell the coffee or something. Your argument is just plain unreasonable and the Torah is anything but unreasonable and in fact the Torah Moshe is easy to follow, in fact, practical to follow in every sense. Rabbinic oral law is the opposite and is the laws not even our fathers could follow mentioned in Acts I believe.

Avi,

Heavy work loads? I am confused. Where is this the limiting factor mentioned anywhere in the verse in Jeremiah, or even in the Torah, concerning the prohibition on carrying anything through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath? Notice it is not I who is adding to the scripture here. And if weight is truly a limiting factor, then at what weight does it become heavy vs light? Is it arbitrary? Is anything that G-d commands us arbitrary, or even relative? If it's a prohibition, shouldn't we then know how much weight is too heavy and thus a transgression? What Torah do you have to back up your belief that it's weight related? It would seem that such a viewpoint would nullify the prohibition on holding to unjust weighs and measures, as then one could say "it's not heavy for me" whereas another could judge that it is heavy - who would be right? You say the Torah of Moshe is easy to follow, yet "heavy" is not defined, and thus if this is Torat Moshe, then your viewpoint on this prohibition is not easy to follow at all.

Shalom,

Israel

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[D Sanders]

XuS wrote:

 

Don't forget that the same verse that tell us to not call Rabbi also command us to not call "father". Do we call "father" to our biological father? About Saducees and Phariseans Yeshua told us: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat [here the verse is talking of the Sanhedrin in that time; with Saducees and Phariseans]: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves  will not move them with one of their fingers.
Did Yeshua say: Don't listen to them at all, because they bind heavy burdens? No, what he said is: 'observe and do' what they state, but do not copy their hypocrisy. Because if we learn their ways and also copy their hypocrisy, then we are going to be sons of the hell.
 

XuS, you are correct; we should not call men Father like the Catholic church teaches. “Rabbi” does not just mean “teacher;” it carries the concept of religious “master.” The concept of “rabbi” is possessive, made so by adding the Yod at the end of the Resh Bet. It is not just the concept of titles that Yeshua is against, He is against anybody putting a man in His place. The “seat of Moses” is not talking about the Sanhedrin; it was a seat that the Torah readers would sit in in the ancient synagogues. Yeshua is telling us to follow Moses as the scribes and Pharisees read from Moses. The Shem Tov Matthew makes this clear.

Something interesting in this point is that: In the Sanhedrin were Saducees and Phariseans; not only Phariseans. Some denied the Oral Torah. Some accepted it. Yeshua seems to agree with the Phariseans of beit Hillel, and against the Phariseans of beit Shammai. Yeshua himself used many teachings of Hillel, that means that Yeshua himself was making valid these Oral teachings. Yeshua taught about resurrection like the Phariseans, opposed to Saducee teaching that there's no resurrection. It is something to keep in mind. In the Sanhedrin Phariseans and Saducees needed to reach agreements about the law. I think people here Needs to reach agreements also, and stop insulting the side that thinks different, and stop taking out of context some passages in the Bible to use them as a weapon against their brothers.
 

Yeshua could have studied the teachings of the sages at His time as they had not yet rejected their Messiah but He did not teach what they taught. If Hillel or Shammai taught what Yeshua taught (Shammai agreed with Yeshua concerning divorce; Hillel did not), it was because it was truth.

 

John 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. ²⁴ He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

John 12:48   He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.  ⁴⁹ For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.  ⁵⁰ And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

Matthew 7:28   And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:  ²⁹ For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

Yeshua is the Torah made flesh; He did not learn it from any man. Yeshua did not teach Rabbinic Judaism; He did not simply repeat the teachings of the sages. Yeshua taught what the Father told Him to teach. Yeshua is our example; we should be learning and teaching in the same manner.

 

You are again correct in the fact that we should not insult one another nor should we use the scriptures as a weapon; the scriptures are to reveal the Truth. We are to love one another but hate that which seeks to replace what is holy. We are commanded to come out of Babylon in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.  ³ For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.  ⁴ And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

This is obviously not talking just about physical Babylon as God’s people are not there; there is a deeper meaning here. Babylon was the seat of the mystery religions. We probably all know of the Babylonian traits that were fused into Christianity, but how many realize that it was no accident that the main Talmud in Rabbinic Judaism is the Babylonian Talmud? Rabbinic Judaism as we know it today is the result of the leaders rejecting their Messiah and creating a whole new religious system to replace the biblical Temple Judaism. It has been molded by those who have sought to refute the fact that Yeshua is indeed the Messiah of all Israel. If you are to be obedient to your own interpretation of Matthew 23:1-3, you must reject Yeshua as the Messiah for this is what they instruct. This is obviously not what Yeshua is talking about.

 

   "PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua’s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of Y***."
 
The Spirit of Holiness [Ruach haKodesh] is not something so mystical. We recieve it when we decide to stop sinning, when we decide to live in holiness. When we have Love. That's the Ruchah d'Kudsha (Spirit of Holiness). Something that lead us to understand the Torah in the way that we obey God. Is not something that replaces the teaching of a teacher. Remember that even in the time of Apostols, Teachers, Masters and Prophets were needed, and Paul himself was a Rabbi.
 
Shalom
-XuS- 

 

As Avi achi stated so well, we receive the Ruach infused when we embrace Messiah Yeshua.

 

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;  ¹⁷ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

Those Jews who are seeking the true Messiah can have the Ruach with them, guiding them towards the Messiah, but He will not be fused in them until they embrace Yeshua as the Messiah.

 

Be Blessed, Dear Brother,

 

Daniel

---

From: XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 4:14:48 AM

[XuS Casal]

Actually Xus I think it best if we understand that when we are adopted into the family of God through faith in Yeshua His Father becomes our Father since we both have the Same Holy Spirit.
 

We are spiritually family of God, sons of God. It doesn't replace my biological father. Didn't Elisha call Eliyah: My father? Didn't Peter call David: Our father David? Is not Abraham the father of the believers? Didn't John call Gaius: my son? (making John his father). Didn't Paul be a Rabbi? Shouldn't we listen to Paul because he is a Rabbi?
 
It is for the lack of this same Holy Spirit that all the rabbis of old that have rejected their brother in the flesh who is the prophet like unto Moshe.
 
The verse of John that you provide says: "some of the Phariseans" Not "ALL the RABBIS". And if all the Rabbis of old, then also Paul. That we know he became Yeshua's believer after he found clear evidences, not before. Rabbi Gamaliel defended the believers of Yeshua (note: he appears in the Talmud). And as we read in the Besorot, Yeshua attacks the hipocresy and legalism of some Phariseans and Saducees, not what they state.

 
Xus another way to understand this verse is to understand that it was not the rabbis (Pharisees/Sadducees) that Yeshua was promoting and encouraging the Jewish people to follow but the Torah Moshe.
 

'Whatever THEY say' (Mt 23:3), is not about Torah, is about Sanhedrin. When Yeshua said: they sit at Moses' seat, Yeshua confirms their authority, an authority given by Torah.

 
If you follow these pretenders (rabbis) wisdom you become one with them who are by definition part of the anti-Messiah!
 

If you believe in a Pseudo-pagan human-god with caucasian skin called Jesus, then you are part of a pagan group called roman empire, and by definition an: anti-Torah. Anti-Torah people is called in greek: anomos [no-law].
I DO NOT reject Yeshua as the Messiah, so by definition I'm not a liar, and I'm not an Anti-Messiah (hope you got my point). I personally don't take the Talmud in the same level with Torah, but if Yeshua used the arguments of Hillel, are the arguments of Hillel valid or not? If not, then the arguments of Yeshua are neither valid. 
The true is that the writters of the Talmud had more knowledge than us, and were part of a group which God Himself gave autorithy to create Halacha in Torah. And if a Rabbi says that the water is wet, That's something you cannot deny. the True is the True, no matter who say it. Most of Talmud basis are made without add or substract from Torah. We cannot deny them just because it is a teaching of the Talmud, we have to test them and keep what our heart tell us is a good teaching. But if we do not prove it, then we could be wrong. If you are not agree with some teaching of the Talmud, then reject it, but DO not force the rest of the world to reject it, just because you don't agree. At first I was kind of Karaite, with an Ortodox teacher. Everything I learned from Talmud I tested it, and many times I've found in my daily Torah study that Talmud was right. That's all. It has nothing to do with a Satanic conspiration against the jewish world.
 
 
Xus you only receive this Holy Spirit by faith in Yeshua not works of the Law.
 
"Works of the Law" is an Essenic term, and I Do NOT believe that Justification comes from our works, but by faith. But Faith without Works is like a body without spirit. That's why King David, when he sinned said: 'Do not take you holy spirit from me'. Whenever you make teshuvah (by faith), and live according to the Torah (by deeds), the holy spirit is going to be with you.

 
the unbelieving rabbis you follow
 

Do you know me? then why do you say: "the unbelieving Rabbis you follow"?
If I'd say the same about the Pagan catholic Church you follow then you will ask me: 'do you know me? then why do you say: the pagan Catholic church you follow'? (I hope you get my point, is not my intention to offend you)

 
as it stands they will not be in the first resurrection but the second and so are like all unbelievers subject to the finality of the second death.
 

It could be better to build Shalom and try to obey Torah, rather than keep sending to hell everyone. We are not God. Is not for us to judge others, but to put in order our own life, and teach Torah. 
In your opinion people who learn from a Rabbi is lost. In my opinion, people who defend a trinity is an idolater (and for me that's a beam in the eye), so let's STOP this behaviour, and let's stand in Torah interpretation, instead of accusing each other. Personal accusations don't build Shalom. We already know that nobody is perfect.
Keep in mind that even the words of Yeshua need interpretation, that's why we need masters, teachers and of course wise Rabbis.
 
Without counsel ideas are frustrated; but in the multitude of counsellors they are established (Prov 15:22).
 
Shalom (and i mean it)
-XuS-
 
 
 

---

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 07:24:18 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

On 4/25/2011 4:14 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

   "What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?"
 

Personally, I see that word everywhere in hebrew writings, even today, and it indicates a direct object. It is difficult for me to imagine that in Gn 1:1 suddenly means other thing than that. But it could be the case.
 

   "Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua."
 

Don't forget that the same verse that tell us to not call Rabbi also command us to not call "father". Do we call "father" to our biological father? About Saducees and Phariseans Yeshua told us: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat [here the verse is talking of the Sanhedrin in that time; with Saducees and Phariseans]: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves  will not move them with one of their fingers.

Actually Xus I think it best if we understand that when we are adopted into the family of God through faith in Yeshua His Father becomes our Father since we both have the Same Holy Spirit. By this one Holy Spirit we become one in mind, body, word and purpose although many diverse spiritual gifts are manifested broadly throughout the body of Messiah as He has seen fit to distribute them for the purpose of building up His bride and sustaining her. As I have pointed out by the same Spirit achi Daniel speaks of we inherit with Yeshua all that He has been given by the Father. His circumcision in His flesh now makes us part of the covenant. Muslims circumcise their daughters in ignorance not understanding that YHVH makes and keeps covenants only with men. It is therefore the man's circumcision or lack of circumcision that either benefits or hinders the woman he is head over. The male's circumcision (covenant) can only be made between a man and YHVH as YHVH will not violate His own Torah. In Numbers  30 we are told that a woman cannot even enter a covenant with YHVH unless her Father, husband, brother or head allows it to stand. Without any boasting I humbly submit that this is an example of rightly dividing the Torah that only comes from the Spirit of God being in a man and it is for the lack of this Spirit in many on this board that such simple to understand concepts as covenant through circumcision is so difficult to comprehend. It is for the lack of this same Holy Spirit that all the rabbis of old that have rejected their brother in the flesh who is the prophet like unto Moshe are blind guides leading those that are also blind! If you follow these pretenders (rabbis) wisdom you become one with them who are by definition part of the anti-Messiah! As Daniel so correctly points out the rabbis you and so many on this board revere for their human wisdom are of the world and so cannot understand the things that only the Spirit of YHVH can reveal. Simply stated they and those that follow them are blind yet since they refuse to admit their blindness their sins are retained!

• And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.(John 9:39-41)

Did Yeshua say: Don't listen to them at all, because they bind heavy burdens? No, what he said is: 'observe and do' what they state, but do not copy their hypocrisy. Because if we learn their ways and also copy their hypocrisy, then we are going to be sons of the hell.

Xus another way to understand this verse is to understand that it was not the rabbis (Pharisees/Sadducees) that Yeshua was promoting and encouraging the Jewish people to follow but the Torah Moshe. This is witnessed in the Gospel accounts in several places where He states "Keep the Commandments" (Matt. 19:17)

Something interesting in this point is that: In the Sanhedrin were Saducees and Phariseans; not only Phariseans. Some denied the Oral Torah. Some accepted it. Yeshua seems to agree with the Phariseans of beit Hillel, and against the Phariseans of beit Shammai. Yeshua himself used many teachings of Hillel, that means that Yeshua himself was making valid these Oral teachings. Yeshua taught about resurrection like the Phariseans, opposed to Saducee teaching that there's no resurrection. It is something to keep in mind. In the Sanhedrin Phariseans and Saducees needed to reach agreements about the law. I think people here Needs to reach agreements also, and stop insulting the side that thinks different, and stop taking out of context some passages in the Bible to use them as a weapon against their brothers.
 
   "PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua’s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of Y***."

 
The Spirit of Holiness [Ruach haKodesh] is not something so mystical. We recieve it when we decide to stop sinning, when we decide to live in holiness. When we have Love. That's the Ruchah d'Kudsha (Spirit of Holiness). Something that lead us to understand the Torah in the way that we obey God. Is not something that replaces the teaching of a teacher. Remember that even in the time of Apostols, Teachers, Masters and Prophets were needed, and Paul himself was a Rabbi.
 
Shalom
-XuS- 
 

Xus you only receive this Holy Spirit by faith in Yeshua not works of the Law if it were as you say then the unbelieving rabbis you follow would have the spirit of adoption and so eternal life but as it stands they will not be in the first resurrection but the second and so are like all unbelievers subject to the finality of the second death. 

Shalom,

Avi

---

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 00:27:17 -0700
From: danielsa...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Shalom Kosta,

 

You bring up some interesting topics. What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?

 

Is PaRDeS indeed the deepest levels of study or is there something yet deeper?

 

1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God's power and God's wisdom! ²⁵ For God's "nonsense" is wiser than humanity's "wisdom." And God's "weakness" is stronger than humanity's "strength." ²⁶ Just look at yourselves, brothers- look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world's standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. ²⁷ But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; ²⁸ and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; ²⁹ so that no one should boast before God. ³⁰ It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! ³¹ Therefore- as the Tanakh says- "Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about ADONAI."
 

It would seem that God's logic is different than man's logic.
 

1 Corinthians 2:4 and neither the delivery nor the content of my message relied on compelling words of "wisdom" but on a demonstration of the power of the Spirit, ⁵ so that your trust might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power. ⁶ Yet there is a wisdom that we are speaking to those who are mature enough for it. But it is not the wisdom of this world or of this world's leaders, who are in the process of passing away. ⁷ On the contrary, we are communicating a secret wisdom from God which has been hidden until now but which, before history began, God had decreed would bring us glory. ⁸ Not one of this world's leaders has understood it; because if they had, they would not have executed the Lord from whom this glory flows.

 

Who did Yeshua call “the world?” Who insisted that Yeshua be executed when Pilot wanted to let Him go?

 

John 15:18  "If the world hates you, understand that it hated me first.  ¹⁹ If you belonged to the world, the world would have loved its own. But because you do not belong to the world- on the contrary, I have picked you out of the world- therefore the world hates you.  ²⁰ Remember what I told you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours too.  ²¹ But they will do all this to you on my account, because they don't know the One who sent me.  ²² "If I had not come and spoken to them, they wouldn't be guilty of sin; but now, they have no excuse for their sin.  ²³ Whoever hates me hates my Father also.  ²⁴ If I had not done in their presence works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now, they have seen them and have hated both me and my Father.  ²⁵ But this has happened in order to fulfill the words in their Torah which read, 'They hated me for no reason at all.'

 

This is clearly speaking of the religious leaders who rejected their own Messiah and those who continue to reject Yeshua as their Messiah.

 

There is clearly a deeper level of understanding than what the “world leaders” can teach us (today we would call these “world leaders” the Talmudic and other “rabbis” who have rejected Messiah Yeshua).

 

1 Corinthians 2:12  Now we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit of God, so that we might understand the things God has so freely given us.  ¹³ These are the things we are talking about when we avoid the manner of speaking that human wisdom (obtained mentally through PaRDeS) would dictate and instead use a manner of speaking taught by the Spirit, by which we explain things of the Spirit to people who have the Spirit.  ¹⁴ Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God- to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit.  ¹⁵ But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him.  ¹⁶ For who has known the mind of ADONAI? Who will counsel him? But we have the mind of the Messiah!

 

The “rabbis” who have rejected their Messiah do not have the ability to understand the deeper things of the Ruach. Does Yeshua bear witness?

 

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;  ¹⁷ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

The Messiah rejecting “rabbis” do not have the Ruach and cannot receive Him in this way until they embrace Messiah Yeshua.

 

John 14:21  He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...  ²³ …If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.  ²⁴ He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.  ²⁵ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.  ²⁶ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

Are the “rabbis” supposed to teach us all things or is the Ruach? How about one more witness?

 

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.  ²³ Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledes the Son has the Father also.  ²⁴ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.  ²⁵ And this is the promise that he has promised us, even eternal life.  ²⁶ These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.  ²⁷ But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

 

Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua.

 

Matthew 23:8  But do not be called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah; and all you are brothers.

 

PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua’s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of YHVH.

 

Be Blessed,

 

Daniel

---

From: Kosta Guyer <ander...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 24, 2011 11:17:56 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

 

Accusation

Since many  claim that PaRDeS or the 4 levels of Hebraic interpretation are necessary to understand

Messiah, then those same 4 levels also define 39 violations of Shabbat, separate dishes for milk and meat,

separate utensils for eating, and other such halachic/legal rules. If Messianics are going to use the so

called PaRDeS, then in order to be consistent, they must follow all the other diverse rabbinic

interpretations like not driving on Shabbat and turning off lights on Shabbat, since they all come from the

PaRDeS formula. Do all Messianics keep these rabbinic interpretations? If not, why not? They are the

result of PaRDeS.

Truth

Not at all. The four levels of PaRDeS are basic Hebraic principles followed by all Hebrews for at

least 2,400 years. The rabbis did not invent this formula. They simply compiled it by observing how

YHWH revealed Himself in Scripture. These 4 levels appear in biblical and secular history, way before

the oral law outlined such things as 39 Shabbat violations, the forbidding of turning on lights on Shabbat

or starting a car on Shabbat, since those very conveniences did not appear until the dawn of the 20th

century, in the early 1900's CE. Nowhere does it state that anybody using or insisting on using PaRDeS as

a means of revealing, and defending Yahshua from the Tanach, and Brit Chadashah is bound to keep all

these levels of Oral Law. This accusation is comical, when one considers that these modern appliances

and modes of transport did not even exist when the rabbis began to record the Oral Law in the early 200’s

CE. The anti-missionary is guilty of anachronism to an extreme degree. Any Messianic Believer can use

the 4 principals found in the Scriptures57 themselves, without having to keep all the 30, 40, 80 or 100

levels of added Jewish law, which in most cases were added hundreds or even thousands of years after the

initial usage of PaRDeS among Israel’s teachers. Daniel’s revelations certainly can be classified as

containing much sod, drash, and remez. As an example YHWH told Daniel, that his book’s mysteries

were to be closed for and until future revelation.58 Daniel did not keep 100 or 1000 levels of

understanding, and volumes of rabbinic halacha/law, but did use the divinely given 4 basic levels of

Hebraic comprehension.

To say that HaAdon Yahshua did not use sod is absurd, when one considers that as a Rabbi in

Matthew 13, He used 7 parables or drashim, that revealed the secret or the sod, (plus the esoteric Gospel

of John and Revelation) and then Yahshua turns right around and attacks the already existing oral laws

before their actual recording in the Talmud by stating that the rabbinic traditions such as the washing of

hands with a prescribed blessing, and the justification of the stealing of material goods designated for

parental care by claiming it is an offering to YHWH, were all commandments of men that sought to

replace the Word of YHWH (Matthew 15:1-6).

15 Then there came to Yashua scribes

and Pharisees from Yerushalayim,

saying,

2“Why do Your taught ones transgress

the tradition of the elders? For they do not

wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3But He answering, said to them, “Why

do you also transgress the command of

Elohim d because of your tradition?

4“For Elohim has commanded, saying,

‘Respect your father and your mother,’

and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let

him be put to death.’

5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his

father or mother, “Whatever profit you

might have received from me has been

dedicated,”

6is certainly released from respecting his

father or mother.’ So you have nullified the

command of Elohim by your tradition.
 

 Apparently the Messiah was able to actively and

consistently use the PRINCIPLES of PaRDeS, without following all the added levels of Oral Torah that

were birthed at lower levels from following PaRDeS. If He used PaRDeS, as did all the prophets, then

Messianics should be able to do likewise, and remain free from erroneous and added burdens of rabbinic

interpretation, which the New Testament idiomatically calls the “Burden Of The Law” (Oral Law) from

which Messiah has set us free.

 PaRDeS the meaning of this term

One of the facts that was well known, understood, accepted and practiced by ALL of Israel’s sages

from Moses, to the prophets, to the men of the Great Assembly, to the rabbis of the extended galut/exile,

was one overriding factor when it came to understanding the concept of Moshiach. That understanding lay

in a system of Hebraic interpretation that even the simple minded could use to glean all things important

and all things needed for deep comprehension in YHWH’s Word. That system of Hebraic understanding

used by all Hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of

PaRDeS. PaRDeS stands for Pashat/Literal primary meaning, Remez/Hints in the text of something

deeper, Drash/The added understanding that can only be gleaned by a story, riddle, or parable and the

deepest level Sod/Secrets and mysteries, which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in the text,

which can and often do require many hours, weeks, months and in some cases even years to receive,

through the diligent study and meditation in YHWH’s Word.

Both the First and Second Covenants were written by Hebrews for Hebrews and as such employed

this method of PaRDeS in all their writings, accounts and revelations. To approach the Set-Apart

Scriptures with any other mindset, is to set ones self up for failure, frustration, error and deception. Unlike

Christians and others, one cannot choose what method of understanding Scripture they are most familiar

or comfortable with. The Creator Himself set certain guidelines and failure to employ this system of

PaRDeS, will leave one short of comprehension at best, or lost and damned at worst. Now here is where

the problem begins and ends. New Testament books such as John and Revelation can only be understood

at the deepest level of Sod, for they reveal things kept hidden from the foundation of the world.

Major portions of Matthew can only be grasped by drash, allegories, metaphors, and most often

by parables, which are part of the drash level of comprehension. Rarely does anything Messianic come

out plainly in the literal primary first glance reading. Even the methods that the New Testament uses to

quote from and to verify Old Testament Messianic prophetic fulfillment, often is recorded as partial

quotes, half quotes, cut and pasted quotes, altered quotes, paraphrased quotes and such. This type of

writing style and testimony is enough to drive any literalist crazy.

Furthermore this situation is complicated by the fact that sometimes the New Testament quotes the

LXX or Septuagint named after the 70 rabbis who translated the Hebrew Tanach in 250 BCE. Sometimes

it quotes the Masoretic or traditional Jewish texts of today. Sometimes it quotes neither and sometimes it

appears to quote things that are not even found in the literal plain contextual frame in which the Words

were first given.

Now what does one do? He or she if they are serious about pursuing YHWH, has no choice but to

accept things the way Hebrews always did. And that is that each verse of the Old Testament has at least 4

basic ways of being understood. All 4 basic ways are as legitimate in YHWH’s eyes as the other. Messiah

said over and over again in such places as Matthew 13, that His teachings are designed so as to cloak

them from the self righteous and hateful and reveal them to those who desire to receive Him. Since

YHWH never changes, the Tanach and Torah are also written in like manner, with Israel having personal

knowledge about YHWH considered so esoteric, that no other nation or people had it. ONLY ISRAEL had

it. And if one insists that each verse only has a single level of understanding, which is the literal

contextual meaning, then one cannot understand the Creator and Revelator at all in either covenant, since

the Creator reveals Himself on His terms. One example is Genesis 1:1. In the literal understanding of the

text, the Almighty created all things. Period end of story! Simple enough. But is that the ONLY message of

Genesis 1:1? Or is it deeper and if it is deeper, how much deeper?

Well on a hint level, YHWH is stating that it is not Elohim the Father who is Creator but He

specifies which part of Himself is Creator by stating that ELOHIM ALEPH TAF is Creator, a fact affirmed

by Colossians 1:16. Or what does the “literal only” scholar do with Matthew 5:29-30? If we only take that

literally, we are left so bewildered and flabbergasted, that in ignorance we cut of our actual legs and arms

for Yahshua, since they have both been instruments of sin, at some point in time. Or perhaps we send

those limbs to Kim Jung Ill of North Korea, so we don’t have to face temptation anymore? He seems to

enjoy collecting human limbs anyway. Sound absurd?

Well here’s something even more absurd. Because folks are not willing to use PaRDeS, the

accepted way to interpret all of Hebraic Scripture in both covenants for 3,500 years, and since most

people refuse to go to the extreme of personal limb removal to stop profuse sinfulness, many find it far

easier to deny the New Testament and attribute it to fantasy or the crazed sayings of a narcissist Rabbi or

ego maniac.

Shalom Kosta

 

From -The Messianic Believer’s

First Response Handbook
 

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:50:25 -0600
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Avi:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 4:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

No I'm not saying anything like that Israel. Jeremiah is not talking about carrying a cloak but heavy work loads in and out of the gates come on use some common sense here. Wake up and smell the coffee or something. Your argument is just plain unreasonable and the Torah is anything but unreasonable and in fact the Torah Moshe is easy to follow, in fact, practical to follow in every sense. Rabbinic oral law is the opposite and is the laws not even our fathers could follow mentioned in Acts I believe.

Avi,

Heavy work loads? I am confused. Where is this the limiting factor mentioned anywhere in the verse in Jeremiah, or even in the Torah, concerning the prohibition on carrying anything through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath? Notice it is not I who is adding to the scripture here. And if weight is truly a limiting factor, then at what weight does it become heavy vs light? Is it arbitrary? Is anything that G-d commands us arbitrary, or even relative? If it's a prohibition, shouldn't we then know how much weight is too heavy and thus a transgression? What Torah do you have to back up your belief that it's weight related? It would seem that such a viewpoint would nullify the prohibition on holding to unjust weighs and measures, as then one could say "it's not heavy for me" whereas another could judge that it is heavy - who would be right? You say the Torah of Moshe is easy to follow, yet "heavy" is not defined, and thus if this is Torat Moshe, then your viewpoint on this prohibition is not easy to follow at all.

Shalom,

Israel

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[Jeff A]

B"H

Todah Xus. Very well put.

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah! Jeff

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

From: XuS Casal <chu...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Kosta Guyer]

Shalom Daniel,

Thankyou for your undrstanding. Below is etymology of the word et.

 

The word Aleph and Tav joined together equals Et. An untranslated particle in Hebrew often described in grammars (somewhat superficially) as the sign of the direct object after a transitive verb. Its origin is unknown. The prevailing view is that  et was originally a noun meaning "essence, substance, self," a significance which it subsequently lost in the historical development of the language.

 When  et is used to signify an accusative  (nota accusativi) it is generally, though not always, in prose and when the object of the verb is determined by the definite article. More important than indicating an accusative, the function of et is to emphasize the word to which it is attached.

For this reason one observes that °¢t is used not only with the accusative but with the subject

( nota_ nominativi) of both intransitive and passive verbs. Copious illustrations could be offered but two will suffice. With °¢t as subject of an intransitive verb compare 2Kings 6:5; "The axe-head fell into the water" (w® °et- abbarzel n¹pal °elhamm¹yim). With °et as subject of a passive verb compare Gen 17:5; "And your name (°et-shimkâ) shall no more be called Abram."

 

To summarize, et was originally a substantive, and was used to emphasize the noun to which it was prefixed. In the course of time the emphatic meaning was lost and et became a particle with no special meaning.

 

 

Isaiah 41:4 “Who has performed and done it, calling

the generations from the beginning? ‘I,

YHVH, am the first, and with the last I am

He.’ ”

 

Rev 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the

‘Aleph’ and the ‘Tav’, the Beginning and

the End.

 

Now on a deeper Level- Daniel, et means Beginning and End, all words contained in alphabet and used by YHVH himself  in Isaiah 41:4 and Yahshua in Rev 21:6  identifying the marker et and pointing this symbol to  Himself.

 

Your brother in Mashiach 

 
Kosta

 

---

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 00:27:17 -0700
From: danielsa...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[julius batalla]

Hi Kosta,

I really enjoyed your exchange of ideas with Xus, Daniel & Kuya Avi,
it just that I was lost or probably didn't expect what i got. 

I am expecting to see a  remez, drash and sod in the 3 nights and 3 days (the way I understood it), I'm interested in knowing it.

regards, julius

[XuS Casal]

I am expecting to see a  remez, drash and sod in the 3 nights and 3 days (the way I understood it), I'm interested in knowing it.

If I may give my opinion, I didn't study this subject further, but always had some ideas flying around about the three days.
We can see clear ideas about innocent people tha comes in front of a King after three days.
 
Peshat
-the meaning of the dream of an Innocent prisoner (Gn 40:12). "In three days shall Pharaoh lift up your head, and restore you unto your office". 
 
Remez in Tanakh
-(about the three days) Esther convoked the innocent people of God (the people was going to die unjustly), to mourning three days and nights until the meeting with the king in the third day (Est 4:16).
-(about the innocent man) Isaiah talks about an innocent man dying for the sake of his people, and being resurrected. Who is this man? the Suffering Servant of HaShem, the One that represents Israel, like Moses (Is 53); i.e the Messiah.
-(about the innocent man and three days and three nights together) The people who threw Yonah into the sea prayed: "HaShem, do not let us die for taking this man's life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, HaShem, have done as you pleased" (Yonah 1:14), then Yonah was buried (inside a fish) three days and three nights (Yonah 1:17). 
 
drash
-A suffering servant being aflicted for the sake of his people (like Yosef), seems to be the prayer of Yonah:
"I called in my affliction to HaShem, and He answered me; from the belly of the She'ol I cried, and You listened my voice.. ..the earth beneath barred me in forever, but you brought my life up from the pit". It seems that there's a clear connection between 'three days' and 'innocent men', and in that way, the life of Yosef is an allegory of the suffering servant, and the dream of the innocent prisoner, is a symbol of the resurrection in the third day. So in that point Yeshua said: it is necessary for the Messiah (according to the Torah) to die and resurrect at the third day".
 
I cannot tell more than that, but I'm sure If we dig a bit more we will find more treasures in Torah.
 
Shalom
-XuS-
 
 
 

---

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:15:55 +0800

Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

From: julius...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[avi5207]

Good points Xus and an interesting point of view I had not considered before. Xus just because I call into question someone's viewpoints or disagree does not mean that I am deliberately trying to insult you. Often our opinions become a part of who we are and when someone dislikes our opinion its almost like someone is making a personal attack on how we are dressed or how our hair is styled. We have to learn to expect criticism and use it to more closely examine ourselves to see if we are truly walking in the way of Yeshua. Not all criticism is bad. If I have offended you or any other on this forum I apologize and ask forgiveness. My heart desires that we all come together in Messiah Yeshua. Yeshua came to us in the Father's love to teach us the Torah. I have upset more than one in my disagreements with the rabbis of old or with those that are called rabbis. The word rabbi does not mean teacher but rather our/my great one or master. To me we who believe have only one Master Messiah Yeshua. The word 'moreh' is the masculine form of 'teacher'. If someone is anointed to be a 'moreh' that is a true calling by the Master Yeshua to build up the body of Messiah. In the Torah it is ordained by YHVH that those that are priests are to teach. Now we are of a different order that includes all believers in Yeshua. We are priests after the order of Melchizedek and Yeshua is our High Priest. This order includes all mankind not just Israel. As we mature in the grace that being members inside the body of Messiah Yeshua affords us we are to become teachers by not only word but deed. How we live 24/7 is our testimony agreed? So I poke at commonly held views I disagree with and I challenge any view I see as none scriptural but I do so for our collective good and not to harm anyone. I may have said things that are of the flesh rather than the spirit and if so again I apologize and ask forgiveness. I will endeavor to be more careful to speak, question or criticize with love and respect.

Shalom in the unity that we have in Yeshua our Messiah,

Avimelech 'Avi'


On 4/26/2011 5:45 AM, XuS Casal wrote:

I am expecting to see a� remez, drash and sod in the 3 nights and 3 days (the way I understood it), I'm interested in knowing it.

If I may give my opinion, I�didn't study this subject further, but always had some ideas flying around about the three days.

We can see clear ideas about innocent people tha comes in front of a King after three days.

�
Peshat
-the meaning of the dream of�an Innocent prisoner (Gn 40:12). "In three days shall Pharaoh lift up your head, and restore you unto your office".�
�
Remez in Tanakh
-(about the three days) Esther convoked the innocent people of God�(the people�was going to die unjustly), to mourning three days and nights until the meeting with the king in the third day (Est 4:16).

-(about the innocent man) Isaiah talks about an innocent man dying for the sake of his people, and being resurrected. Who is this man? the Suffering Servant of HaShem, the One that represents Israel, like Moses (Is 53); i.e the Messiah.

-(about the innocent man and three days and three nights together) The people who threw Yonah into the sea prayed: "HaShem, do not let us die for taking this man's life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, HaShem, have done as you pleased" (Yonah 1:14), then Yonah was buried (inside a fish) three days and three nights (Yonah 1:17).�
�

drash
-A suffering servant being aflicted for the sake of his people (like Yosef), seems to be the prayer of Yonah:

"I called�in my affliction to HaShem, and He answered me; from the belly of the�She'ol I cried, and You listened my voice.. ..the earth beneath barred me in forever, but you brought my life up from the pit". It seems that there's a clear connection between 'three days' and 'innocent men', and in that way, the life of Yosef is an allegory of the suffering servant, and the dream of the innocent prisoner, is a symbol of the resurrection in the third day. So in that point Yeshua said: it is necessary for the�Messiah (according to the Torah) to die and resurrect at the third day".
�
I�cannot tell more than that, but I'm sure If�we dig a bit more we will find more treasures in Torah.
�
Shalom
-XuS-
�
�
�

---

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:15:55 +0800
Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?
From: julius...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Hi Kosta,

I really enjoyed your exchange of ideas with Xus, Daniel & Kuya Avi,

it just that I was lost or probably didn't expect what i got.�

I am expecting to see a� remez, drash and sod in the 3 nights and 3 days (the way I understood it), I'm interested in knowing it.

regards, julius

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 5:36 AM, Kosta Guyer <ander...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Shalom Daniel,

Thankyou for your undrstanding. Below is etymology of the word et.

�

The word Aleph and Tav joined together equals Et. An untranslated particle in Hebrew often described in grammars (somewhat superficially) as the sign of the direct object after a transitive verb. Its origin is unknown. The prevailing view is that� et was originally a noun meaning "essence, substance, self," a significance which it subsequently lost in the historical development of the language.

�When� et is used to signify an accusative� (nota accusativi) it is generally, though not always, in prose and when the object of the verb is determined by the definite article. More important than indicating an accusative, the function of et is to emphasize the word to which it is attached.

For this reason one observes that ��t is used not only with the accusative but with the subject
( nota_ nominativi) of both intransitive and passive verbs. Copious illustrations could be offered but two will suffice. With ��t as subject of an intransitive verb compare 2Kings 6:5; "The axe-head fell into the water" (w� �et- abbarzel n�pal �elhamm�yim). With �et as subject of a passive verb compare Gen 17:5; "And your name (�et-shimk�) shall no more be called Abram."
�

To summarize, et was originally a substantive, and was used to emphasize the noun to which it was prefixed. In the course of time the emphatic meaning was lost and et became a particle with no special meaning.

�
�

Isaiah 41:4 �Who has performed and done it, calling

the generations from the beginning? �I,

YHVH, am the first, and with the last I am

He.� �

�

Rev 21:6 And He said to me, �It is done! I am the

�Aleph� and the �Tav�, the Beginning and

the End.

�

Now on a deeper Level- Daniel, et means Beginning and End, all words contained in alphabet and used by YHVH himself� in Isaiah 41:4 and Yahshua in Rev 21:6� identifying the marker et and pointing this symbol to� Himself.

�

Your brother in Mashiach�

�
Kosta

�

---

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 00:27:17 -0700
From: danielsa...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Shalom Kosta,
�

You bring up some interesting topics. What is the true teaching of the et (alef and tav) in Berisheet 1:1? Is it indeed the Messiah revealed or is it simply an indicator of a direct object?

�

Is PaRDeS indeed the deepest levels of study or is there something yet deeper?

�

1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God's power and God's wisdom! ²⁵ For God's "nonsense" is wiser than humanity's "wisdom." And God's "weakness" is stronger than humanity's "strength." ²⁶ Just look at yourselves, brothers- look at those whom God has called! Not many of you are wise by the world's standards, not many wield power or boast noble birth. ²⁷ But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong; ²⁸ and God chose what the world looks down on as common or regards as nothing in order to bring to nothing what the world considers important; ²⁹ so that no one should boast before God. ³⁰ It is his doing that you are united with the Messiah Yeshua. He has become wisdom for us from God, and righteousness and holiness and redemption as well! ³¹ Therefore- as the Tanakh says- "Let anyone who wants to boast, boast about ADONAI."

�

It would seem that God's logic is different than man's logic.

�

1 Corinthians 2:4 and neither the delivery nor the content of my message relied on compelling words of "wisdom" but on a demonstration of the power of the Spirit, ⁵ so that your trust might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power. ⁶ Yet there is a wisdom that we are speaking to those who are mature enough for it. But it is not the wisdom of this world or of this world's leaders, who are in the process of passing away. ⁷ On the contrary, we are communicating a secret wisdom from God which has been hidden until now but which, before history began, God had decreed would bring us glory. ⁸ Not one of this world's leaders has understood it; because if they had, they would not have executed the Lord from whom this glory flows.

�
Who did Yeshua call �the world?� Who insisted that Yeshua be executed when Pilot wanted to let Him go?
�

John 15:18 �"If the world hates you, understand that it hated me first.� ¹⁹ If you belonged to the world, the world would have loved its own. But because you do not belong to the world- on the contrary, I have picked you out of the world- therefore the world hates you.� ²⁰ Remember what I told you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours too.� ²¹ But they will do all this to you on my account, because they don't know the One who sent me.� ²² "If I had not come and spoken to them, they wouldn't be guilty of sin; but now, they have no excuse for their sin.� ²³ Whoever hates me hates my Father also.� ²⁴ If I had not done in their presence works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now, they have seen them and have hated both me and my Father.� ²⁵ But this has happened in order to fulfill the words in their Torah which read, 'They hated me for no reason at all.'
�

This is clearly speaking of the religious leaders who rejected their own Messiah and those who continue to reject Yeshua as their Messiah.

�
There is clearly a deeper level of understanding than what the �world leaders� can teach us (today we would call these �world leaders� the Talmudic and other �rabbis� who have rejected Messiah Yeshua).
�
1 Corinthians 2:12 �Now we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit of God, so that we might understand the things God has so freely given us.� ¹³ These are the things we are talking about when we avoid the manner of speaking that human wisdom (obtained mentally through PaRDeS) would dictate and instead use a manner of speaking taught by the Spirit, by which we explain things of the Spirit to people who have the Spirit.� ¹⁴ Now the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God- to him they are nonsense! Moreover, he is unable to grasp them, because they are evaluated through the Spirit.� ¹⁵ But the person who has the Spirit can evaluate everything, while no one is in a position to evaluate him.� ¹⁶ For who has known the mind of ADONAI? Who will counsel him? But we have the mind of the Messiah!
�
The �rabbis� who have rejected their Messiah do not have the ability to understand the deeper things of the Ruach. Does Yeshua bear witness?
�
John 14:16 �And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;� ¹⁷ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
�
The Messiah rejecting �rabbis� do not have the Ruach and cannot receive Him in this way until they embrace Messiah Yeshua.
�
John 14:21 �He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...� ²³ �If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.� ²⁴ He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.� ²⁵ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.� ²⁶ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
�
Are the �rabbis� supposed to teach us all things or is the Ruach? How about one more witness?
�

1 John 2:22 �Who is a liar but he that denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.� ²³ Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledes the Son has the Father also.� ²⁴ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.� ²⁵ And this is the promise that he has promised us, even eternal life.� ²⁶ These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.� ²⁷ But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
�

Men can lead us to study in areas that we might not have studied otherwise (a good example of this is Shaul instructing the Bereans about Messiah Yeshua in Acts 17:10-12), but it is to be the Ruach that is our Teacher; we are to only have one Rabbi, Messiah Yeshua.

�
Matthew 23:8 �But do not be called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah; and all you are brothers.
�
PaRDeS is a good starting place but we must be led by Yeshua�s Ruach in order to truly understand the deeper things of YHVH.
�
Be Blessed,
�
Daniel

---

From: Kosta Guyer <ander...@hotmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 24, 2011 11:17:56 PM
Subject: RE: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

�

Accusation

Since�many �claim that

PaRDeS or the 4 levels of Hebraic interpretation are necessary to understand

Messiah, then those same 4 levels also define 39 violations of Shabbat, separate dishes for milk and meat,

separate utensils for eating, and other such

halachic/legal rules. If Messianics are going to use the so

called

PaRDeS, then in order to be consistent, they must follow all the other diverse rabbinic

interpretations like not driving on Shabbat and turning off lights on Shabbat, since they all come from the

PaRDeS

formula. Do all Messianics keep these rabbinic interpretations? If not, why not? They are the

result of

PaRDeS.

Truth

Not at all. The four levels of

PaRDeS are basic Hebraic principles followed by all Hebrews for at

least 2,400 years. The rabbis did not invent this formula. They simply compiled it by observing how

YHWH revealed Himself in Scripture. These 4 levels appear in biblical and secular history, way before

the oral law outlined such things as 39 Shabbat violations, the forbidding of turning on lights on Shabbat

or starting a car on Shabbat, since those very conveniences did not appear until the dawn of the 20th

century, in the early 1900's CE. Nowhere does it state that anybody using or insisting on using

PaRDeS

as

a means of revealing, and defending Yahshua from the Tanach, and Brit Chadashah is bound to keep all

these levels of Oral Law. This accusation is comical, when one considers that these modern appliances

and modes of transport did not even exist when the rabbis began to record the Oral Law in the early 200�s

CE. The anti-missionary is guilty of anachronism to an extreme degree. Any Messianic Believer can use

the 4 principals found in the Scriptures

57 themselves, without having to keep all the 30, 40, 80 or 100

levels of added Jewish law, which in most cases were added hundreds or even thousands of years after the

initial usage of

PaRDeS among Israel�s teachers. Daniel�s revelations certainly can be classified as

containing much

sod, drash, and remez. As an example YHWH told Daniel, that his book�s mysteries

were to be closed for and until future revelation.

58 Daniel did not keep 100 or 1000 levels of

understanding, and volumes of rabbinic

halacha/law, but did use the divinely given 4 basic levels of

Hebraic comprehension.

To say that HaAdon Yahshua did not use

sod is absurd, when one considers that as a Rabbi in

Matthew 13, He used 7 parables or

drashim, that revealed the secret or the sod, (plus the esoteric Gospel

of John and Revelation) and then Yahshua turns right around and attacks the already existing oral laws

before their actual recording in the Talmud by stating that the rabbinic traditions such as the washing of

hands with a prescribed blessing, and the justification of the stealing of material goods designated for

parental care by claiming it is an offering to YHWH, were all commandments of men that sought to

replace the Word of YHWH (Matthew 15:1-6).

15

Then there came to�Yashua scribes

and Pharisees from Yerushalayim,

saying,

2

�Why do Your taught ones transgress

the tradition of the elders? For they do not

wash their hands when they eat bread.�

3

But He answering, said to them, �Why

do you also transgress the command of

Elohim

d because of your tradition?

4

�For Elohim has commanded, saying,

�Respect your father and your mother,�

and, �He who curses father or mother, let

him be put to death.�

5

�But you say, �Whoever says to his

father or mother, �Whatever profit you

might have received from me has been

dedicated,�

6

is certainly released from respecting his

father or mother.� So you have nullified the

command of Elohim by your tradition.

�
�Apparently the Messiah was able to actively and

consistently use the PRINCIPLES of PaRDeS, without following all the added levels of Oral Torah that

were birthed at lower levels from following PaRDeS. If He used PaRDeS, as did all the prophets, then

Messianics should be able to do likewise, and remain free from erroneous and added burdens of rabbinic

interpretation, which the New Testament idiomatically calls the �Burden Of The Law� (Oral Law) from

which Messiah has set us free.

�PaRDeS the meaning of this term

One of the facts that was well known, understood, accepted and practiced by ALL of Israel�s sages

from Moses, to the prophets, to the men of the Great Assembly, to the rabbis of the extended galut/exile,

was one overriding factor when it came to understanding the concept of Moshiach. That understanding lay

in a system of Hebraic interpretation that even the simple minded could use to glean all things important

and all things needed for deep comprehension in YHWH�s Word. That system of Hebraic understanding

used by all Hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of

PaRDeS

. PaRDeS stands for Pashat/Literal primary meaning, Remez/Hints in the text of something

deeper,

Drash/The added understanding that can only be gleaned by a story, riddle, or parable and the

deepest level

Sod

/Secrets and mysteries, which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in the text,

which can and often do require many hours, weeks, months and in some cases even years to receive,

through the diligent study and meditation in YHWH�s Word.

basic ways of being understood. All 4 basic ways are as legitimate in YHWH�s eyes as the other. Messiah

said over and over again in such places as Matthew 13, that His teachings are designed so as to cloak

them from the self righteous and hateful and reveal them to those who desire to receive Him. Since

YHWH never changes, the Tanach and Torah are also written in like manner, with Israel having personal

knowledge about YHWH considered so esoteric, that no other nation or people had it. O

NLY ISRAEL had

it. And if one insists that each verse only has a single level of understanding, which is the literal

contextual meaning, then one cannot understand the Creator and Revelator at all in either covenant, since

the Creator reveals Himself on His terms. One example is Genesis 1:1. In the literal understanding of the

text, the Almighty created all things. Period end of story! Simple enough. But is that the

ONLY message of

Genesis 1:1? Or is it deeper and if it is deeper, how much deeper?

Well on a hint level, YHWH is stating that it is not Elohim the Father who is Creator but He

specifies which part of Himself is Creator by stating that

ELOHIM ALEPH TAF

is Creator, a fact affirmed

by Colossians 1:16. Or what does the �literal only� scholar do with Matthew 5:29-30? If we only take that

literally, we are left so bewildered and flabbergasted, that in ignorance we cut of our actual legs and arms

for Yahshua, since they have both been instruments of sin, at some point in time. Or perhaps we send

those limbs to Kim Jung Ill of North Korea, so we don�t have to face temptation anymore? He seems to

enjoy collecting human limbs anyway. Sound absurd?

Well here�s something even more absurd. Because folks are not willing to use

PaRDeS, the

accepted way to interpret all of Hebraic Scripture in both covenants for 3,500 years,

and since most

people refuse to go to the extreme of personal limb removal to stop profuse sinfulness, many find it far

easier to deny the New Testament and attribute it to fantasy or the crazed sayings of a narcissist Rabbi or

ego maniac.

Shalom Kosta

�

From -The Messianic Believer�s

First Response Handbook

�

---

From: isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:50:25 -0600
Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Avi:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 4:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

No I'm not saying anything like that Israel. Jeremiah is not talking about carrying a cloak but heavy work loads in and out of the gates come on use some common sense here. Wake up and smell the coffee or something. Your argument is just plain unreasonable and the Torah is anything but unreasonable and in fact the Torah Moshe is easy to follow, in fact, practical to follow in every sense. Rabbinic oral law is the opposite and is the laws not even our fathers could follow mentioned in Acts I believe.

Avi,

Heavy work loads? I am confused. Where is this the limiting factor mentioned anywhere in the verse in Jeremiah, or even in the Torah, concerning the prohibition on carrying anything through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath? Notice it is not I who is adding to the scripture here. And if weight is truly a limiting factor, then at what weight does it become heavy vs light? Is it arbitrary? Is anything that G-d commands us arbitrary, or even relative? If it's a prohibition, shouldn't we then know how much weight is too heavy and thus a transgression? What Torah do you have to back up your belief that it's weight related? It would seem that such a viewpoint would nullify the prohibition on holding to unjust weighs and measures, as then one could say "it's not heavy for me" whereas another could judge that it is heavy - who would be right? You say the Torah of Moshe is easy to follow, yet "heavy" is not defined, and thus if this is Torat Moshe, then your viewpoint on this prohibition is not easy to follow at all.

Shalom,

Israel

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[Bryce Henderson]

On 2011-04-25, at 8:23 AM, D Sanders wrote:

The “seat of Moses” is not talking about the Sanhedrin; it was a seat that the Torah readers would sit in in the ancient synagogues. Yeshua is telling us to follow Moses as the scribes and Pharisees read from Moses. The Shem Tov Matthew makes this clear.

Folks,

The Shem Tov Matthew doesn't exist. It's merely a collection of partial manuscripts which, when examined, reveal that it is not at all close to what the original Hebrew Matthew the church fathers spoke of and quoted from. I strongly encourage everyone to examine the following resources once they can make the time to do it. Please, bookmark this email and come back to it in the future. 

The resources I'm sharing are an 18-minute lecture on the Shem Tov Matthew which reveals how corrupt it is. It is laughable that people think that it is based on an original Hebrew Matthew manuscript.

LECTURE: http://www.mediafire.com/?zdlmcdmt0z2

[Download from the link. If for some reason you cannot download it send me an email request to iserv...@mac.com and I'll reply with the file, as it is only 4 MB]

This lecture is very important. I think that everyone in the Torah movement should listen to it so they can understand this issue better.

Next, I'd like to introduce folks to an exchange between Nehemiah Gordon, a Karaite Jew teaching these lies about Matthew 23:3, and Tim Hegg, a scholar who teaches us what the manuscripts actually say. Please be sure to read them in order. If you read only one, be sure to read the last one.

1. HEGG - http://torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

2. GORDON - http://torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/was_yeshua_a_pharisee.pdf

3. HEGG - http://torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/GordonResponse.pdf

These lies have spread far and wide throughout the Torah movement. Please, study what these men have to say so you can see how faulty Nehemiah Gordon's ideas are. His lies are persuasive, but the truth always wins.

Shalom,

brYce

[Bryce Henderson]

Here's a note I wrote on Facebook. I hope it helps people with understanding this topic better. Shalom.

What does "three days and three nights" really mean?

The Garden Tomb where our Master is believed to have risen on the third day.

In Matthew 12:40 we read,

 

"for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 

What is the sign of Jonah? Is it that He will be in the grave for literally "three days and three nights"? Or, is it that just as Jonah was dead for three days and then alive again, so will it be with Him? [Some think that Jonah didn't die inside the belly of the sea monster, but he did - see http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp94.htm]

 

Why do modern-day skeptics choose to cling to this one verse and steadfastly claim that it must be a literal three days and three nights (72 hours)? Don't they understand that neither our Master, His followers, nor opponents make such claims? Please, pay careful attention to what the rest of the Scriptures teach. Let us learn how Jews understand what "three days and three nights" really means.

 

I'm going to list all the pertinent passages in full, so scroll down for the rest of this note if you don't want to read them all.

 

ALL OF THESE PASSAGES ARE TESTIFYING OF WHAT OUR MASTER YESHUA SAID ABOUT RISING FROM THE DEAD IN THREE DAYS:

 

• From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. (Matthew 16:21)

• and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved. (Matthew 17:23)

• and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up." (Matthew 20:19)

• And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. (Mark 8:31)

• For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." (Mark 9:31)

• "They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again." (Mark 10:34)

• saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day." (Luke 9:22)

• and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." (Luke 18:33)

• and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day," (Luke 24:46)

• Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)

 

THESE VERSES CONTAIN THE TESTIMONY OF HIS FOLLOWERS SAYING THAT HE ROSE AFTER THREE DAYS:

 

• "saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (Luke 24:7)

• "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:7)

• "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible," (Acts 10:40)

• "and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Corinthians 15:4)

 

THESE VERSES CONTAIN THE TESTIMONY OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO ALSO SAID THAT HE WAS TO RISE AFTER THREE DAYS:

 

• and said, "This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'" (Matthew 26:61)

• and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." (Matthew 27:40)

• and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."(Matthew 27:63-64)

• "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'" (Mark 14:58)

• Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, "Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days," (Mark 15:29)

• The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" (John 2:20)

 

HERE ARE MORE EXAMPLES FROM THE TANACH:

 

• According to Genesis 7:12, the rain of the Noahic Flood was upon the Earth “forty days and forty nights.” Verse 17 of that same chapter says it was on the Earth for just “forty days.”

• In Genesis 42:17 Joseph incarcerated his brothers for three days. Then, in verse 18, he spoke to them on the third day, and from the context it seems that he released them on that same day—i.e., the third day.

• When Israel asked King Rehoboam to lighten their burdens, he wanted time to contemplate their request, so he instructed Jeroboam and the people of Israel to return “after three days” (2 Chronicles 10:5, emp. added). Verse 12 says that Jeroboam and the people of Israel came to Rehoboam “on the third day, as the king had directed, saying, ‘ Come back to me the third day’ ” (emp. added). Fascinating, is it not, that even though Rehoboam instructed his people to return “after three days,” they understood this to mean “on the third day.”

• In 1 Samuel 30:12,13, the phrases “three days and three nights” and “three days” are used interchangeably.

• When Queen Esther was about to risk her life by going before the king uninvited, she instructed her fellow Jews to follow her example by not eating “for three days, night or day” (Esther 4:16). The text goes on to tell us that Esther went in unto the king “on the third day” (5:1, emp. added).

FROM http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?article=756

 

Are we clear that our Master said that He was to rise on the third day? Twenty-one verses say that He would rise in three days and only one verse, Matthew 12:40, mentions anything different. Further, those other examples from the Tanach show that saying "day and night" means the same as merely saying "day" and it is counted as a day whether it is a whole 24 hours or not.

 

Now, why on earth would our Master say "three days and three nights" in the first place? He was quoting Jonah where it says "three days and three nights". Why does it say that? Could it be that this the way that Jews define a "day"? Let's look at how Torah defines a day:

 

"…there was evening and there was morning…" (Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31)

 

We know that a day starts in the evening from verses like these ones and Leviticus 23:32,

 

"...from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."

 

HOW DO JEWS COUNT DAYS?

 

The Torah says that in cases of uncleanness lasting only one day, the person is unclean until evening. See Leviticus 15 for many examples of that. Also, their writings confirm that they understand that any portion of a day is counted as a full day. In the Jerusalem Talmud it says,

 

“A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (Shabbat 9:3)

 

Do you want to see something exciting? I think that our Master knew that there would be skeptics who refused to listen to Torah, or the teachings of the Sages, so He said the following to confirm that a portion of a day counted as a whole day when counting days:

 

Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, "Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You." And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.' Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem." (Luke 13:31-33)

 

Did you notice? He counts three days with "today" being the first day, "tomorrow" being the second day, and "the next day" being the third day. With this in mind, let's look at how we are to understand three days in the context of His death and resurrection:

 

DAY ONE would be the time from the afternoon of Nisan 14, when our Master was executed, until sunset. Though it is only a few hours, it counts as a day in the mind of a Jew who has learned how to count days according to Torah.

DAY TWO would be Nisan 15, the first day of Unleavened Bread. It was a festival Sabbath and also a weekly Sabbath if it is correct that the Festival began on the weekly Sabbath that year.

DAY THREE would have been Nisan 16 which began after sunset Saturday evening. It was around that time that the priests and elders would have been in the fields near Jerusalem cutting the sheaves for the firstfruit offering of the barley harvest which would be used for the wave offering in the morning. They would also count the first night of the Omer that evening.

 

SEVENTY-TWO HOURS?

 

Now, why on earth do people steadfastly insist that it must be a literal three days and three nights, or 72 hours? What do they have to gain by making such an assumption? Making such an assumption allows them to hold onto their false beliefs.

 

If it is true that it is three days according to the way Jews count time, then the traditional Christian understanding has merit. The traditional Christian view, while not totally consistent with the Jewish understanding, is mostly correct. They celebrate Easter, so their timing for Passover is off. However, they are right about the amount of time between when He was executed and when He rose from the dead.

 

The proper view is also perfectly consistent with the Pharisaical, and historical, understanding of when we are to start counting the Omer. The counting of the Omer is what allows us to determine the timing of the Feast of Weeks, or Shavuot.

 

So, what happened? Our Master died on the afternoon of Pesach (Nisan 14) and was placed in the tomb before sunset. He spend the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) in the tomb. He then rose from the dead the following day, on Nisan 16.

 

Understanding this forces one to acknowledge what Scripture and history teach us about when we are to start counting the Omer is correct. The Pharisees were correct and the heretical Boethusians were wrong.

 

It's very scary for some to acknowledge that the Pharisees were correct. 

 

WHEN TO START COUNTING THE OMER

 

Read what Tim Hegg has to share in his paper, "Counting the Omer: An Inquiry into the Divergent Methods of the Divergent 1st Century Judaisms" http://torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/CountingTheOmer.pdf

On 2011-04-22, at 2:18 PM, Yoseph ben Gershon wrote:

Bryce, go and look at His entrance to Jerusalem.  I found 8 quickly.  I do not have time to locate the other.  As I remember there are nine.  It may only be eight.

Shabbat Shalom

 

Yeshua instructed His disciples to Travel more than a sabbath day journey on Shabbat (Matt 21:1)  Travel on Shabbat is limited to a Sabbath day's journey.  Instructing another to sin is in and of itself a sin.

He instructed the disciples to untie the colt. (Mark 11:1)  tying is prohibited on Shabbat.  Instructing another to sin is in and of itself a sin.

The disciples put their garments on the colt (Mark 11:7)  The carrying of garments by the colt is prohibited through the gates on Shabbat.  He did not stop them doing so.

Yeshua road the colt on Shabbat (Mark 11:8)  Riding a donkey is specifically prohibited on Shabbat.

many cut branches and placed them on the road (Matt 21:8, Mark 11:8) the cutting of branches is prohibited on Shabbat.  He did not stop them from doing so.

Yeshua road the colt over the branches thereby "threshing" them.  (Mark 11:8)  Threshing is prohibited on Shabbat.

He entered Jerusalem on a colt with the garments (Mark 11:11)  He carried through the gates on Shabbat.

Yeshua traveled more than a Sabbath's day journey on Shabbat (Luke 19:28-29

Shalom

R. Yoseph

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

You make my point for me.  If He rose on Shabbat, then Yom Rishon is not the third day but the forth or the fifth day since His death.

And, like I said, if He died on Wed. then He entered on Shabbat and violated it.  He then would be disqualified from being the Messiah.

If He died Wed, Thursday would have been the festival Sabbath which they rested according to the commandment and He had to be in the grave before, therefore Pesach is called a Shabbat several times by your reckoning.  (Keep your arguments straight.)

If He died on Wed, Friday would have been preparation day.  Why didn't the women and disciples care for the burial then, why did they wait until after the weekly Shabbat?  This is greatly disrespectful as one must hurry to bury the dead properly.

 

If He died on Thursday, then only the Saducees would have celebrated His resurrection and they would have done so outside of the Temple.  The Pharisees and the Temple service for the resurrection would have been done on Shabbat.  Furthermore, he would have violated Shabbat by traveling on Shabbat to be ready to enter the Temple on Yom Rishon. 

 

If He died on Friday, then the Saducees, Pharisees, and almost all of greater Judaism would have been a witness to both his death and His resurrection.  He also would not be in a position of violating the Sabbath before His death.  Friday is the only way He also would have kept all the commands regarding His death as found in the Torah.  His resurrection had to be soon after sun set so that He could do all the commands regarding His resurrection and do the work required to be done before sunrise.  If he rose in the afternoon, He does not do any of those commands and therefore, cannot be the Messiah. 

 

Yeshua spent 33 years of His life celebrating the feasts in the Temple.  He did so according to the reckoning of the Pharisees who determined when the feast would be celebrated in the Temple.  He did not have the right to do His "Temple service" when He determined to do so but rather did it according to the ruling of the rulers of His day.  As He is/was the Messiah and had to be perfect, then the calendar in use in that day must have been correct.  Therefore we should abide accordingly.

 

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

 

 

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yes, the walk to Emmaus was on Sunday, but it is a misunderstanding and mistranslation that Sunday was the third day since the crucifixion. Instead of writing down the verse in Greek, which most don't know, we ought to use what others have shown concerning this verse, which will have greater weight.

The Greek word for "since" after "the third day" in Luke 24:21 actually means "away from". Away from is the same as our "after". Yeshua died late on a Wednesday afternoon and was laid in the grave at sundown on Wednesday as Thursday was beginning. He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights on Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night and Thursday day, Friday day, and Saturday day using our reckoning of days and nights. He rose as the Sabbath was ending. So He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and rose after 3 days and 3 nights while the Sabbath was ending. So He rose on the third day. Sunday is therefore the 4th day. The actual literal Greek translation of Luke 24:21 is:

But surely also together with all these things, it brings a third day away from which all these things occurred.

Translators take the cumbersome literal translation and make it flow , taking some liberty with it, but trying to retain accuracy. The 4th day is "away from" the third day. So it is apparent that the verse is literally saying they were walking and talking after the third day, which was Sunday. However, have other translators understood this point too? Yes, let's look at 3 of them. (Luke 24:21)

Moffatt Translation--by James Moffatt
....but he is dead, and that is three days ago!

The New Berkeley Version in Modern English-- Gerrit Verkugl
Moreover, three days have already passed, since all these events occurred.

The Syriac New Testament Translated Into English From The Peshitto Version -- James Murdock
...and lo, three days have passed since all these things have occurred.

The Syriac Reading can be confirmed by 2 of the oldest manuscripts in Estrangelo Aramaic: the Sinaitic Palimpset and the Curetonian Syriac.

A more direct, literal translation from the Apostolic Bible reads:

But indeed with all these things, [ this third day leads in today] from which time these things took place.

Most compelling, however, is the Aramaic Peshitta text, which is better preserved and predates the greek:

"And behold, "THREE DAYS have PASSED!"

 

There is exceedingly ample evidence that the correct translation for Luke 24:21 is that the KJV should read, "today is after the third day since these things were done." As the information above shows, the oldest and multiple original manuscripts show that "away from" is the correct word for since, and shows us that they were talking about Sunday being the 4th day since Yeshua was laid in the grave. That troubled them, because He has clearly said many times that He would rise after the third day, after 3 days and 3 nights. He would fulfill the sign of Jonah, as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish, so Yeshua would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. These two disciples were challenged in their faith, because it appeared that Yeshua's many prophecies concerning His being raised from the dead had failed. They were going back to Emmaus in defeat, when a stranger joined them. This stranger explained to them all the prophecies concerning the Messiah from the Bible (Tanakh or Old Testament). They did not recognize that it was Yeshua, the risen Messiah talking to them. Only when they sat down to eat and He blessed the bread [which, thought called "lechem" is actually unleavend matzot, because they were in the fourth day of that feast] and gave it to them, were their eyes opened and they recognized Him as Yeshua. He then instantly disappeared from them.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. [day is in the text but italicized, meaning it was not in greek text]

Matthew 28:1 (NASB) Now late on the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. [day is in the text but italicized, meaning it was not in greek text]

The dawning of a new day in the biblical and Jewish day reckoning is at twilight as it is getting dark, not first light in the morning. The Sabbath ended at sundown, and the two Marys came to look at the gravesite after the Sabbath ended. Yeshua had already risen. Therefore, the Bible teaches He rose on the third day, on the Sabbath, regardless of what your tradition or any later creed states. Now let's show all the verses where Yeshua said He would rise on the third day, or those afterwards that state He did rise on the third day.

Matthew 16:21 (KJV) From that time forth began Yeshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:23 (KJV) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:19 (KJV) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Matthew 27:64 (KJV) Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mark 9:31 (KJV) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:34 (KJV) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 (KJV) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luke 13:32 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Luke 18:33 (KJV) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 24:7 (KJV) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Luke 24:46 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Acts 10:40 (KJV) Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;

1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

All of the above verses state a prediction that He would be raised "the third day", or that some feared it coming true, or afterwards stated that it had come true. [Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Mark 9:31; 10:34; Luke 9:22; 13:32; 18:33; 24:7; 24:46; Acts 10:40; and 1 Corinthians 15:4]. The scriptural facts show that Yeshua rose from the grave late on the Sabbath, late on Saturday evening. This was 3 days and 3 nights AFTER He had been crucified, and it was also the third day. The first day being Thursday; the second day being Friday; and the third day being Saturday.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 2:11:59 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Shabbat before His death would be the 10th when the lamb was brought in.  If what you say is true, then Yeshua violated Shabbat before His death, disqualifying Him from being the Messiah Savior!

On the first day unto the Shabbat, Yeshua and His disciples are on the road together and it is said that it is still the third day, best I can count it would be 4th or 5th depending on how it is counted, but it cannot be the third day.

Sorry, this cannot be correct.

Shabbat Shalom all,

R. Yoseph

 

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The rest-day of Pesach is never called "Shabbat" in Torah.. If it is, show me where, and I'm with you.  It is only later thought that calls that day a Sabbath.  It is specifically referred to as a "mikrah kadosh", not as "a sabbath", not even as a "shabbaton" as Yom Teruah and YomHaKippurim are, but only as mikra kadosh.  So, when He says HA Shabbat, He's naming THE sabbath.  It is in the context of Pesach because there WILL be THE SABBATH in that seven day period, no matter what.

Since it reads "mimacharat HAshabbat", it cannot read "unto the next Sabbath".  Mi macharat is rooted in the word "machar", which means tomorrow.  So, it reads correctly in English "the morrow after the sabbath".

It's simple, Messiah's Pesach did not HAVE to be on a weekly Sabbath.

He held His Seder with the Sadducees on the evening of the 14th, a Tuesday night.  He was arrested that night, tried, and crucified on Wednesday, when the Pharisees were about to have their seders on the night of the 15th, as they still do, which is a clear violation of Torah.  He was put in the grave that evening, and stayed there until Saturday night, arising just past sundown. 

I just don't think HaShem is at all "semi-ambiguous", but very clear.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:48:54 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

It doesn't matter if the argument was held first by the Pharisees or Saducees. What matters is the argument being made itself.

"HaShabbat" is in context of Pesach. "the day after the sabbath" should instead be written "on the first day unto (the next) Sabbath." Why is it written "after the Sabbath" and not also qualified with "on the first day of the week" or some other indication? Because it is not talking about the weekly Shabbat, for there is a "Sabbath" in context that is not right before Yom Rishon and that "Sabbath" can only be Pesach and not the weekly - again the topic in context being Pesach. But it is precisely this semi-ambiguity that lends to the credibility that this was a prophecy concerning the Pesach that Mashiach would show up: that that Pesach would be on a weekly Shabbat, thus satisfying both interpretations!

Yet even in that case which satisfies both interpretations, how can Mashiach die on an erev Pesach, and rise on Bikkurim, if that Pesach was literally on a weekly Shabbat, and you assert a literal three day and three night application? It just doesn't work. You have to lop one holiday off or another as applying to Mashiach.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

With great respect to you all, I disagree that just because the Pharisees did it a certain way, that they should then be followed.

A big portion of the Pharisees would not let gentiles participate in Synagogue worship. 

A big portion of the Pharisees did not recognize Messiah.  You stated that He did it so "Judaism AS A WHOLE WOULD SEE".

As I Jew, I personally wish they had seen.  But, AS A WHOLE, with PHARISEES as leaders, they did not, and STILL do not.

Who's to say the Saducees were not right about something?  Just because they rejected the notion of resurrection, does not mean they were not right on some issues. 

The spotting of "night" and "day" is not a "western timeclock".  I've been in the middle east AND in the far east, and the sun and the moon operate the same on that side of the world as they do here in the west.  Day and Night are easily discerned.

Just because "the passage [I] reference says Shabbat which COULD be either", does that mean that I must then pick the less accurate interpretation simply to follow Pharisees?

The Jewish community is STILL having trouble "recognizing" Messiah, and it is likely due, in large part, to the Phariseeical interpretations of Torah which take entirely too much liberty with the language of it.

The Temple service they offered went on for 40 years without acknowledgement/acceptance of HaShem!  Precisely because they CHANGED THE FEASTS!

AND THE TORAH.  Yeshua kept His feast on the 14th, clearly, because He was crucified BEFORE the Pesach of the Pharisees! Which was DIFFERENT FROM/LATER THAN His!

The Pharisees did not keep Pesach bein ha'erabayim on the fourteenth of the first month, as the Torah plainly instructs.  They moved it to the 15th!  Instead of eating Matzah for seven days, as plainly instructed, they eat it for eight.

While there is great merit in the writings of the Jews, including the Pharisees, it is NOT divinely inspired, and must be treated as such.

Clearly, the Pharisees were in MUCH ERROR in THEIR interpretations of Torah, which is what Messiah Yeshua chided them for.  I choose to follow Messiah and HIS texts, and MUST consider what the "leaven" of the Pharisees really is, and why He put a stop to PHARISEE's Temple worship! 

Again, with great respect I tender these thoughts.  I do not wish to engender any kind of ill will.
 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 12:49:21 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Jonah is held accountable to the Torah.  Find it first in Torah, then exegetic Jonah.

you are correct when you say that it does not require mental gymnastics to get to the understanding.  It does however require a Jewish understanding of the phraseology and how it was used in the day, not a Western time clock.  Judaism understood this to be any part of a day is a day and a night.  Its use in Jewish writings contemporary to Yeshua make this evident.

Bikkurim is the first day of the week for the Sadducees not the Pharisees or the Temple service.  The Temple service and Pharisees put it on the 16th.  That is why so much was written about when the 16th falls on a Shabbat, if they are to harvest the barley or not.  The conclusion was, yes we harvest, even on a Shabbat. 

The passage you reference says Shabbat which could be either.  It was understood and applied as festival Shabbat in the days of Yeshua in the Temple.  He worshiped in the Temple and synagogues accordingly.  He also died and rose accordingly.  He did not do it according to some other reckoning which no one would have recognized or seen.  He did it so Judaism as a whole would see.  Therefore, as He was perfect and did according to the Temple service throughout His life and in His death, then the Pharisaic reckoning must have been correct.  Therefore, we should do accordingly and not according to the Sadducee reckoning.

 

Shalom

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

R. Daniel,

If three literal days and nights, how then can Mashiach be like the lambs slaughtered on Nisan 14, and rise on Nisan 16, Bikkurim? You have to give up one end or the other to make your understanding fit.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Daniel Crouch <battzi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I must disagree.

The verses in Leviticus do not have the same phraseology as does Messiah's own prediction about His time in the grave.

He said Himself that He would be "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot" in the belly of the earth, and the text He linked it to was not VaYikra 7 or VaYikra 15, or Yehoshua 5, but Yonah 2:1.

Not only that, but He repeats this phrase twice.  "Just as Yonah was in the belly of the great fish "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot", so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth "shlosha yamim oo'shlosha laylot".  He is being very, very specific, and giving us the interpretive reference very specifically.  Using any other scripture to interpret this prophecy is not responsible, especially if not thinking/referencing Yonah at all.

Yonah does not give us ANY frame of reference in regard to time, as to when boarded the ship, or when he was thrown into the sea, or when he was released, except this phrase, which Messiah has now quoted twice.  The only other place where this phrase is used is in 1 Sam 30, and there is nothing in that text that gives us leeway to shorten its duration.

It is unlikely to me that Messiah would be this very direct, quote the interpretive scripture directly, only to leave it to human logic to reason it away and shorten the duration of it.  "Day" and "Night" are very clearly understood, even by a child, without having to do mental gymnastics, especially where it is so very, very plainly spoken and repeated.

 

 

Shalom!

Y'varechecha Y''H 

 

Daniel

---

From: Yoseph ben Gershon <ryoseph.b...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:03:21 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] Literally three days and three nights?

Lev 7:11-18 regarding the peace offering makes it very clear that any part of a day is a day and a night when counting.  Niddah is also the same way.  It is not counted by 24 hour segments.  Kashrut of dishware says that it will be clean at evening regardless of when during the day it was kashered.  etc.

 

3 - 24 hour periods of time for the Messiah's resurrection is not accurate.  Many teach that He rose on shabbat afternoon and died on Wed afternoon.  That would make His entrance into Jerusalem on Shabbat.  The Messiah then transgressed at least 9 Torah commands regarding Shabbat on His entrance.  Therefore, He would have sinned, making His sacrifice common and not holy.  It would also be impossible for Him to be with His disciples on "Sunday" afternoon and it still be the "third" day.

Thursday death would have had the Messiah rising a day after the barley was harvested and presented as the first fruits offering in the Temple. 

 

Look at Joshua 5:10-11.  They partook of newly harvested grain on the 16th of Nissan, First fruits.

 

You will see that Pesach is on the 14th Nissan.  Messiah died in the afternoon of 14th Nissan.  Was in the grave before sunset and rose on 16th Nissan, which is first fruits.  His resurrection was about 1 1/2 hours after sunset Saturday night.  This is when the priests were harvesting the barley for the morning offering.  It is when the first fruits were brought forth from the earth.

When you look at the Exodus you see we were brought out of Mitsrayim at night.  The Messiah had to rise at night as He redeems us from darkness and presents us before the Father in the light. 

Shabbat Shalom

R. Yoseph

 

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Israel <isr...@jerusalemcouncil.org> wrote:

Avi,

Lev 15:27

 ²⁷'Likewise, whoever touches them shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

 ²⁸'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.

Is the command to "count seven days" meant to count the days one finds themselves in (or touching), or to count days relative to the person - thus adding more than seven times 24 hours to the time one is finally tahor?

In otherwords, if the command was to "count seven weekdays" does it mean Mon, Tue, and Wed through Sunday, or does it mean "count three 24 hour periods?"

If 24 hour periods, then what does it mean "afterward?" Is your halacha adding to the time Torah proscribes for someone to be made clean since they have to wait the additional  hours until evening as the juxtaposition of vese 27 implies? If it was 24 hour periods, then literally at the end of that relative 24 hour period would such a person be clean after immersion, yet it appears your count is off since Torah says to wait until evening anyways, as if to imply that the count of the days is inclusive of the day, and not relative hours to the person.

When the term "evening and morning" is used, it is always inclusive of the weekday in scripture, period. Therefore, any part of Yom Rishon counts as that "evening and morning."

That is why above the juxtaposition of "unclean until evening" is not dependent on the relative time of the person being cleansed from menses. The point being that whether one become unclean at 9 in the morning or five minutes to sundown, both only have to wait until evening (sunset) to be clean (as this teaches us that no matter when one becomes a believer, we all work until sunset to get paid the same wage: tahor; for this is what the Master meant when he spoke of paying the same wage agreed by various workers throughout the day). Thus it is the Torah, not the rabbis, that teaches by juxtaposition what the "count seven days" means, or any count of days for that matter since this becomes the default view - and not some 24 hour prescription imposed by man. After all, if it was 24 hours, then the person unclean at 9 am would be clean at 9 am the next morning, but this is not what Torah says, thus such an imposition into the text is an addition to Torah.

Be careful what you say is "of the rabbis" that is "not also of the Torah." I sometimes think we prematurely judge the rabbi's understanding as false, when all we are doing is showing ourselves to be ignorant of the argument. The truth is, most rabbis can explain what a count of days is because they learned it from their teachers and so on, and thus can show you the argument from Torah, but some may not be able to explain what the argument means as done above (as it relates to teaching us about our salvation) - and this is not because they are ignorant of what Torah is saying, but rather ignorant of how it relates to Messiah. Both camps are deficient: messianics deficient of Torah knowledge, and other Jews deficient of how Torah relates to Messiah. Coming together we can see the beauty of the truth as seen from both perspectives.

Thus "three days and three nights" can relate to how Torah counts days, and thus be inclusive of the days everyone shares, and not relative to the person doing the count. Thus three consecutive week days, and not three relative days. After all, Yeshua died in the afternoon, during the day, but the resurrection took place at night before the morning - so either Yeshua's count is off by 12 hours (if you believe in three 24 hour periods), or he too meant three inclusive days.

I hope that resolves the matter for you.

Shalom,

Israel

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:43 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe according to the rabbis word but God's Word says that it takes an evening (night) and a morning (day) to make a whole day!

Shalom,

Avi

On 4/22/2011 9:10 AM, Israel wrote:

Any part of a day is a "day and a night" thus three days and three nights can be seen as inclusive of Friday evening before sunset (1st "day and night"), Shabbat (2nd "day and night") (which also happened to be the Festival Pesach that year, aka Nisan 15), and Motzei Shabbat after sunset Saturday (3rd "day and night") with the resurrection taking place that night (Motzei Shabbat)

This year then the death of our Master took place on Monday afternoon during minchah, and he rose on Tuesday night during the time of the second seder in the exile and Bikkurim counting of the 1st Omer day. It wouldn't have been until Tuesday morning that his body was discovered missing from the tomb, and his appearance to Mary of Magdala.

So the count is inclusive Jewish day/night reckoning where any part of a day is counted as a "day and a night" (much like a woman in Nidah counts a "full day" even if her menses stop just minutes before sundown, and after sundown then is a 2nd day).

Shalom,

Israel

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32 PM, julius batalla <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:

I live & grew up in predominantly catholic, as as I'm writing this reply, in front of my house is a "Pasyon". I think this refers to Passion of Christ. Catholic are singing/chanting the life of christ as been taught. There, the interpretation of 3 days is Friday to Sunday (while is yet dark).  I read also Tim Hegg's.  Armstron's it's 3 days and 3 nights. I think it should be 3 days and 3 nights like Yonah in the belly of the great fish so is the Son of Man in the heart of the earth.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Bryce Henderson <iserv...@mac.com> wrote:

Folks,

Do you believe that it is literally three whole 24 hour days consisting of days and nights? Or, another explanation?


Thanks,

brYce

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[julius batalla]

Xus, Bryce many thanks

[XuS Casal]

Thank you Bryce, thank you very much, I wanted to read this material about Shem Tov since long time ago.
And about the point that Yonah was literally died inside the fish, in that point I cannot agree for the following reasons.
 
-The man who wrote that blog about the She'ol has a materialist concept of what the She'ol is, but the She'ol is an idiom for death, an idiom for to be buried, and also an idiom for sorrow, and a literary resource in parables and poetry (specally in the Psalms).
 
-Nm 16:33 says that Korach and his family went down alive into the She'ol, with everything they owned, and the earth closed over them and they perished.
 
-Did you realize he went "ALIVE" into the She'ol?
-Did you realize his donkeys, his tent, his pots and his sun glases (if they had xD) also entered into the She'ol?
-Did you realize that once the earth closed over them, they "perished"?
 
The Psalm 6:5 says: no one remembers you when he's dead. WHo praises you from the She'ol?
 
-How could Yonah make his Prayer to God if he was died?
 
And the last verse to consider is the Peshat text of Yonah:
 
"HaShem provided a great fish to swallow Yonah, and Yonah was inside the fish" (Yonah 1:17).
 
the literal meaning of this verse is that God saved Yonah's life.
 
"Yonah prayed inside the fish to HaShem" (Yonah 2:1).
 
This verse show that Yonah was actually alive, because he could pray inside the fish (not in the Sheol, which is used a bit later, in his prayer, that is a poem).
 
Shalom
 
-XuS-

 

---

From: iserv...@mac.com

Subject: Re: [JC] Underestanding PaRDeS -Literally three days and three nights?

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:42:05 -0600
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

[Jeff A]

B"H

Todah Bryce!  Very understandable and makes the point well.

Blessings in Yeshua, our King and Messiah! Jeff

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

[Israel]

Avi:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 10:19 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Israel is there anything in Torah that tells us what can be carried [on Shabbat through the gates] and what cannot?

The prohibition is general, thus unless a specification arises, there is no exemption to the prohibition. Thus anything is prohibited from being carried on Shabbat through the gates. Bear in mind that prohibition is on what is carried - not what is worn. It teaches us about the World to Come: that we can not bring anything with us into the World Come except that which we wear: which is Mashiach (as Paul says, clothe yourselves with Mashiach").

So by carrying anything through the gates on Shabbat, we essentially declare the Torah is a lie when it teaches us that when we die we can't bring anything into the World to Come with us except our identity. That is also why we perform malacha during the week (Shabbat is a 7 day a week command, six days we SHOULD do malachah, and on the seventh none.) We work now (in the six working days) for our reward then (on the Sabbath which is just a fraction of the World to Come now which is entirely called the eternal "Shabbat.").
 

How do we know that the Jews laying out their cloaks were not putting down the ones they were wearing

That would be irrelevant. If the day was a sabbath, by loading a donkey with anything, is carrying through the gates if said donkey continues through the gates.
 

and who says this happened on a Sabbath?

I believe R. Daniel holds to that viewpoint, which R. Yoseph was disputing by showing that if it was a Sabbath, then several transgressions of Torah took place (thus proving by argument that it was not a Sabbath, or else Messiah sinned and is not the Messiah if so).
 

I've already explained how this could have happened on a Friday (10th day) making the evening of the following Tuesday (14th day) the night Yeshua ate the Passover. Later that night He is arrested then tried and by 9AM Wednesday Yeshua is being crucified. He dies that afternoon around 3PM is buried before dark allowing a full 3 days and 3 nights in the earth then is resurrected at or about dusk Saturday. This scenario is entirely possible. Why can't you admit that?

Yeshua could only be tried and executed on Nisan 14, not the 15th, for the (festival and weekly) sabbath had not yet begun when he died.
 

Seriously Israel you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels here!

What gnat is being strained in comparison to what camel being swallowed? Speaking in the language of our Master's rebuke of certain Pharisees is not adding to your point, and I want to encourage to stick to specifics rather than entertain rhetoric. :)

Shalom,

Israel

[Israel]

Shalom again Avi,

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 10:50 PM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well it is the responsibility of the father to teach Torah to his sons as the Torah says:

• Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. (Pro 22:6)

I assume a God fearing Israeli father would teach the basics including how to read and write in Hebrew to his son(s) as well as teach his son(s) a trade or apprentice them to a skilled tradesman so the son(s) could earn a living for themselves and their families. So then any male that has reached maturity and is of average intelligence should be able to study and apply Torah for themselves. The vast majority of Torah that applies to the average Jewish man is a 'no brainer'. Only those that insist on making things more complicated than necessary get involved in fruitless, pointless and endless arguments. Seriously Israel adultery, theft, murder, just weights etc.,. what's so hard about these Commandments to understand?

What is so hard is when we insert man-made philosophy into what G-d considers adultery, theft, murder, just weights, etc, when instead we should be looking to the Torah for its definition of these things rather than assuming what it means.
 

Why does anyone need a teacher to explain these Commands?

Even Moshe needed a teacher - his brother, concerning the matter of eating the korban during the inauguration of the Levitical priesthood. If Moshe needed another brother to reveal to him the wisdom of a particular halacha, how much more so we too! (The dispute in Lev 10:17-18, then Aaron's response in v 19, and Moses' acceptance in verse 20.)
 

The vast majority of Torah is very simple for the average man to understand and apply in their daily walk. Everything else is specific to priests or women for the most part.

I would say that these two statements are an oversimplification of the matter. If it was so simple, then why would it need explanation as recorded during the reading of the Torah in Ezra's day?

Nehemiah 8:7
Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, explained the Torah to the people while the people remained in their place.

Furthermore, even the very generation that received the Torah directly from G-d and Moshe, needed Moshe to teach it:

Ex 18:16
"When they have a dispute, it comes to me, and I judge between a man and his neighbor and make known the statutes of God and His laws."

20 ...then teach them the statutes and the laws, and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do.

Furthermore, we know that there will be disputes about Torah, and the Torah tells us how to handle those disputes. If the Torah was "simple" then why exist a means to resolve such disputes?

Deuteronomy 17:8
" If any case is too difficult for you to decide, between one kind of homicide or another, between one kind of lawsuit or another, and between one kind of assault or another, being cases of dispute in your courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God chooses.

We obviously have a need for a teacher. Even the Sages encourage us to "acquire a teacher for yourself." Yeshua himself also said he's send us a Teacher who would lead us into all truth.

But like Moshe, even if we see G-d face to face, we still need our Aarons to check our doctrines against the Torah itself, as we are not greater than Moshe.
 

Yeshua summed up God's simple to understand and follow code of conduct by saying that we must first love YHVH our Elohim with all that we are and do so by loving our fellow man also created in His image as much as we love ourselves. All the Torah and the prophets hang on these two Commands. Why does it have to be so complicated?

When people start to define love apart from Torah, that's when it becomes complication. When people believe "love" is a feeling and not a verb as Torah explains is both, it is a complication. It's so great to "sum up the Torah" but without specifics, one is left flying in an arbitrary cloud where "your reality is true for you, but not for me" - a mess that is more complicated than studying with a teacher what the Torah actually says concerning a matter.

May we never disparage of having human teachers.

Shalom,

Israel

[Kenny Cartwright]

Israel, Shalom. I have been folowing these arguments until they get out of hand a bit, then I back off from them. I hold, but rather loosely, to the 72 hour position, realizing, though, I could be wrong and it is not critical to me as it may be to others. I understand you do not, and you could be right. What I am wanting to ask is if there is a place in the Talmud, or Mishna that indicates any part of a day can count as that whole day. I have heard there is, and yet I have heard that there is not. A reference such as this would go a long way in shaping my opinion.

Thank you for your time, 

B'Shalom, 

kenny cartwright 

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[Bryce Henderson]

I'm not Israel, but I have something to share.

I do not have a copy of the Jerusalem Talmud, but Christian commentators quote it as follows:

"While through the eyes of the twenty-first century reader these statements may appear at first glance to contradict one another, in reality they harmonize perfectly if one understands the liberal methods ancients used when reckoning time. In the first century, any part of a day could be computed for the whole day and the night following it (cf. Lightfoot, 1979, pp. 210-211). The Jerusalem Talmud quotes rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100, as saying: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.). Azariah indicated that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.” Thus, in Jesus’ time He would have been correct in teaching that His burial would last “ three days and three nights,” even though it was not three complete 24-hour days."

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?article=756

Also, read how our Master counts three days:

Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, "Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You." And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.' Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem." (Luke 13:31-33)

Shalom. 

[Kenny Cartwright]

Thank you, Bryce. Very good info- I will copy and keep it on my 'puter for reference. I will take your opinion as well as anyone elses =o) 

Thaks again, and Shalom to you!!

kenny