CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

julius batalla

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Jun 7, 2011, 4:37:45 AM6/7/11

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JC,

2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,

CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

regards, julius

Kenny Cartwright

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Jun 7, 2011, 6:08:45 AM6/7/11

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Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

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avi5207

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Jun 7, 2011, 9:02:05 AM6/7/11

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108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon. Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>
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ar...@rice.edu

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Jun 7, 2011, 10:14:35 AM6/7/11

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Last year: (first) celebration on Chicago's Michigan Avenue - nothing
feels like a Shavuot in Chicago...
This year: Eastern Europe (Macedonia)... Three hours to go here
Next year: Jerusalem!!!

CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

Anna

Israel

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Jun 7, 2011, 12:04:20 PM6/7/11

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Chag sameach to all those looking to Shavuot tonight!

Avi I have a q for you:

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 7:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon.

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to? And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

I think you need to get back to the Torah of the matter: "if there arise a dispute" - and not "turn to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar (thank G-d they had the foresight to give us that calendar before they disbanded, lest we be without any calendar at all!)

Shalom,

Israel

Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>
> --
> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

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avi5207

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Jun 7, 2011, 3:32:13 PM6/7/11

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Shalom Israel,

To answer your questions I'll insert my answers between your questions okay?

On 6/7/2011 11:04 AM, Israel wrote:

Chag sameach to all those looking to Shavuot tonight!

Avi I have a q for you:

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 7:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon.

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with. It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma. Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon. Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

I think you need to get back to the Torah of the matter: "if there arise a dispute" - and not "turn to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar (thank G-d they had the foresight to give us that calendar before they disbanded, lest we be without any calendar at all!)

Shalom,

Israel

Shalom,

Avi

ï¿½

Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>
> --
> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

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> ~ The JC Team
>
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infor...@sukkatdavid.net

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Jun 7, 2011, 9:32:00 AM6/7/11

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Sorry guys, this is not correct. We just finished writing a short
study on the topic. First Yeshua was not risen on a Sunday but on a
Shabbat and second, we are to count 50 days, not more. If you count
from the Shabbat following Pesach, you miss the counting and thus the
Feats of Shavuot that is linked to the Yovel. I am willing to send the
study for you you to check, but can we attach a PDF form?
Shalom from Israel

On 7 juin, 16:02, avi5207 <avi5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon.
> Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to
> scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th
> day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you
> consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first
> day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the
> first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH.
> Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th
> or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of
> the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the
> unleavened bread.
>
> Shalom,
>
> Avi
>
> On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
> > Kenny Cartwright
>

> > On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <juliusbata...@gmail.com

> > <mailto:juliusbata...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > JC,
>
> > > 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> > > CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > > regards, julius
>
> > > --
> > > ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====
> > > This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we
> > recommend you change your delivery options to ï¿½Daily Summaryï¿½ or
> > ï¿½Abridged."
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> > jerusale...@googlegroups.com

> > <mailto:jerusale...@googlegroups.com>

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> > Unsubscribe
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> > > Shalom
> > > ~ The JC Team
>
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> > of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions
> > held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this

> > discussion group, send email to cont...@jerusalemcouncil.org
> > <mailto:cont...@jerusalemcouncil.org>.

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> > of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions
> > held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this

> > discussion group, send email to cont...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

Sukkat David Ministry

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Jun 7, 2011, 9:24:02 AM6/7/11

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Sorry guys, this is not correct. We just finished writing a short study on the topic. First Yeshua was not risen on a Sunday but on a Shabbat and second, we are to count 50 days, not more. If you count from the Shabbat following Pesach, you miss the counting and thus the Feats of Shavuot that is linked to the Yovel. I am willing to send the study for you you to check, but can we attach a PDF form?

Shalom from Israel

Rabbi Sha'ul
www.sukkatdavid.net
The Renewed Covenant by the Light of the Torah

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 4:02 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon. Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>
> --
> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

> This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we recommend you change your delivery options to “Daily Summary” or “Abridged."

>
> CHANGE Your Delivery Options: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery
> START A New Topic: send a new email to jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> READ All Messages Online: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcread
> UNSUBSCRIBE: go to http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery and click Unsubscribe
>
> GROUP RULES: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcrules
>
> Shalom
> ~ The JC Team
>
> Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

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Israel

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Jun 7, 2011, 5:18:15 PM6/7/11

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Avi:

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with.

And who exists as a judge to certify your witness as being truthful? Who has the authority to declare your witness as being false?

It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma.

What if it was not visible to the guy 30 miles from you? Who determines who is correct then? Does one celebrate the feasts on just any day that suits him?

Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon.

According to what Torah is your "feeling" justified by? What authority do you have to declare the New Moon for all Israel worldwide, let alone for yourself?

Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

You still have not addressed who has the authority to determine false witnesses to the New Moon, and thus who has the authority enact such a judgment and thus disqualify false witnesses so as to affect the calendar for the entire nation of Israel.

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

So you see the New Moon on day 1, but on day 1 I was in a cave, unable to see the New Moon, so then since you indicate above that the New Moon is dependent upon when "you" see it, ie me, then does that mean I celebrate all relevant holidays dependent on my lack of sighting one day later while you celebrate them from your sighting on day 1? Since when is the calendar of Israel an individual matter? And if it's a national matter, then according to Torah, who resolves disputes of national importance?

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

The Torah, where it says to "do all they tell you to do." That is just as much a part of Torah as everything else. As it is written: "if there arise a dispute" - we are to go to the judge and "turn no to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar.

Shalom,

Israel

Sukkat David Ministry

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Jun 7, 2011, 6:24:16 AM6/7/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

in 6 hours in Israel!

Shalom shalom

Sha'ul and Orah

----- Original Message -----

From: Kenny Cartwright

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 1:08 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

avi5207

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Jun 8, 2011, 3:24:26 AM6/8/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Israel does someone need to tell you when the weekly Shabbat begins? Where in the Torah do you find scriptural commandments to support your belief that someone in Israel appointed by some rabbis is the only person(s) that can determine the start of the moedim? All anyone has to do is look up at the night sky with their own eyes. Anyone that has eyes to see with will see the new moon for themselves. We don't need someone to tell us its the new moon. As I said before it is a scientific fact that the moon cycles every 29.53 days if you don't see the new moon on the 29th then by default the 30th at even whether visible or not begins the new month. Simple really and it's not rocket science. The whole problem I have with Pharisaic Judaism is that in many ways it is no different than any other false religion ruled by false priests that hold the truth in secret. Yes its all about control over the masses through confusion, fear and intimidation. The church is just as guilty in this matter. Col. 2 is all about rejecting man's doctrines and traditions that seek to ensnare, manipulate and control the sheep. On the Judaism side you have all the fences around the fences around the fences around God's very simple to understand instructions by even simple sheepherders and farmers. Yes Judaism has a rabbinic rule to cover every possible situation that can possibly occur. There are so many rabbinic rules regarding how to observe the Sabbaths, feasts and dietary laws they overwhelm and confound rather than illuminate and make simple God's Laws. On the other side you have the Christian church telling you that you don't have to obey the laws of God. Why do I need you or anyone to tell me when the weekly Sabbath begins? If you come out of your cave and ask if the new moon has been sighted you can pretty much believe the reportï¿½ others give you if they all say the same thing. As I said before every 30 days the monthly cycle resets by default on this you can rely. As for Hillel the II'sï¿½ calendar I think it a good thing in that it was put together to keep all Israel on the same time clock no matter where on the earth they were. Hillel's calendar was however not God ordained and there is no scripture to verify this.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 4:18 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi:

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with.

And who exists as a judge to certify your witness as being truthful? Who has the authority to declare your witness as being false?

ï¿½

It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma.

What if it was not visible to the guy 30 miles from you? Who determines who is correct then? Does one celebrate the feasts on just any day that suits him?

ï¿½

Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon.

According to what Torah is your "feeling" justified by? What authority do you have to declare the New Moon for all Israel worldwide, let alone for yourself?

ï¿½

Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

You still have not addressed who has the authority to determine false witnesses to the New Moon, and thus who has the authority enact such a judgment and thus disqualify false witnesses so as to affect the calendar for the entire nation of Israel.

ï¿½

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

So you see the New Moon on day 1, but on day 1 I was in a cave, unable to see the New Moon, so then since you indicate above that the New Moon is dependent upon when "you" see it, ie me, then does that mean I celebrate all relevant holidays dependent on my lack of sighting one day later while you celebrate them from your sighting on day 1? Since when is the calendar of Israel an individual matter? And if it's a national matter, then according to Torah, who resolves disputes of national importance?

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

The Torah, where it says to "do all they tell you to do." That is just as much a part of Torah as everything else. As it is written: "if there arise a dispute" - we are to go to the judge and "turn no to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar.

Shalom,

Israel

avi5207

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Jun 8, 2011, 3:32:58 AM6/8/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sorry to have to disagree with you. You cannot prove that Yeshua was
resurrected on the weekly Shabbat all we know it that He was gone on
Sunday morning when the women came. Sometime in the night He had rose
for sure. As for counting the omer it is simple. Scripture tells us to
start counting on the first day of the week which is always a Sunday.
Sunday to Sunday we are to count 7 weeks and Shavuot is always on a
Sunday. What is celebrated by most Jews today is just as much out of
order with God's time table as the Samaritan's false calendar.

Shalom,

Avi

Diana Horvat

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Jun 8, 2011, 11:13:07 AM6/8/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Every time I start to unsubscribe, I read something like this from 'Avi' and decide to stay subscribed for awhile longer. Thank you, Avi, for your clear and salient comments about the overbearing and 'overly fenced' approach of Pharasaical Judaism. ...Having said that, I am very grateful for the truths which they have preserved. ...But, the system is in dire need of an overhaul. May not happen until our Messiah returns, though. Meantime, may grace abound and wisdom increase. ...Shalom!

From: avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com>
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 12:24:26 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

Israel does someone need to tell you when the weekly Shabbat begins? Where in the Torah do you find scriptural commandments to support your belief that someone in Israel appointed by some rabbis is the only person(s) that can determine the start of the moedim? All anyone has to do is look up at the night sky with their own eyes. Anyone that has eyes to see with will see the new moon for themselves. We don't need someone to tell us its the new moon. As I said before it is a scientific fact that the moon cycles every 29.53 days if you don't see the new moon on the 29th then by default the 30th at even whether visible or not begins the new month. Simple really and it's not rocket science. The whole problem I have with Pharisaic Judaism is that in many ways it is no different than any other false religion ruled by false priests that hold the truth in secret. Yes its all about control over the masses through confusion, fear and intimidation. The church is just as guilty in this matter. Col. 2 is all about rejecting man's doctrines and traditions that seek to ensnare, manipulate and control the sheep. On the Judaism side you have all the fences around the fences around the fences around God's very simple to understand instructions by even simple sheepherders and farmers. Yes Judaism has a rabbinic rule to cover every possible situation that can possibly occur. There are so many rabbinic rules regarding how to observe the Sabbaths, feasts and dietary laws they overwhelm and confound rather than illuminate and make simple God's Laws. On the other side you have the Christian church telling you that you don't have to obey the laws of God. Why do I need you or anyone to tell me when the weekly Sabbath begins? If you come out of your cave and ask if the new moon has been sighted you can pretty much believe the report others give you if they all say the same thing. As I said before every 30 days the monthly cycle resets by default on this you can rely. As for Hillel the II's calendar I think it a good thing in that it was put together to keep all Israel on the same time clock no matter where on the earth they were. Hillel's calendar was however not God ordained and there is no scripture to verify this.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 4:18 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi:

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with.

And who exists as a judge to certify your witness as being truthful? Who has the authority to declare your witness as being false?

It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma.

What if it was not visible to the guy 30 miles from you? Who determines who is correct then? Does one celebrate the feasts on just any day that suits him?

Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon.

According to what Torah is your "feeling" justified by? What authority do you have to declare the New Moon for all Israel worldwide, let alone for yourself?

Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

You still have not addressed who has the authority to determine false witnesses to the New Moon, and thus who has the authority enact such a judgment and thus disqualify false witnesses so as to affect the calendar for the entire nation of Israel.

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

So you see the New Moon on day 1, but on day 1 I was in a cave, unable to see the New Moon, so then since you indicate above that the New Moon is dependent upon when "you" see it, ie me, then does that mean I celebrate all relevant holidays dependent on my lack of sighting one day later while you celebrate them from your sighting on day 1? Since when is the calendar of Israel an individual matter? And if it's a national matter, then according to Torah, who resolves disputes of national importance?

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

The Torah, where it says to "do all they tell you to do." That is just as much a part of Torah as everything else. As it is written: "if there arise a dispute" - we are to go to the judge and "turn no to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar.

Shalom,

Israel

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Sukkat David Ministry

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Jun 8, 2011, 3:08:59 PM6/8/11

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Is there a way to post our teaching? Or maybe we can just paste it. Thanks.
Shabbat shalom
Sha'ul

----- Original Message -----
From: "avi5207" <avi...@gmail.com>
To: <jerusale...@googlegroups.com>

Shalom,

Avi

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Kenny Cartwright

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Jun 8, 2011, 6:33:53 PM6/8/11

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Shaul, is your teaching available at your website? I would be interested in gaining more info on this controversial subject, though for me it is not so controversial.

Chag Shavout Shalom,

kenny cartwright

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GORDON LAMBERT

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:12:30 PM6/8/11

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Avi, GL says:
I couldn't agree more. And I was raised in the Christian church. But left 9 month's ago. Glad for his healing of my blindness.

Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 02:24:26 -0500
From: avi...@gmail.com
To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

Israel does someone need to tell you when the weekly Shabbat begins? Where in the Torah do you find scriptural commandments to support your belief that someone in Israel appointed by some rabbis is the only person(s) that can determine the start of the moedim? All anyone has to do is look up at the night sky with their own eyes. Anyone that has eyes to see with will see the new moon for themselves. We don't need someone to tell us its the new moon. As I said before it is a scientific fact that the moon cycles every 29.53 days if you don't see the new moon on the 29th then by default the 30th at even whether visible or not begins the new month. Simple really and it's not rocket science. The whole problem I have with Pharisaic Judaism is that in many ways it is no different than any other false religion ruled by false priests that hold the truth in secret. Yes its all about control over the masses through confusion, fear and intimidation. The church is just as guilty in this matter. Col. 2 is all about rejecting man's doctrines and traditions that seek to ensnare, manipulate and control the sheep. On the Judaism side you have all the fences around the fences around the fences around God's very simple to understand instructions by even simple sheepherders and farmers. Yes Judaism has a rabbinic rule to cover every possible situation that can possibly occur. There are so many rabbinic rules regarding how to observe the Sabbaths, feasts and dietary laws they overwhelm and confound rather than illuminate and make simple God's Laws. On the other side you have the Christian church telling you that you don't have to obey the laws of God. Why do I need you or anyone to tell me when the weekly Sabbath begins? If you come out of your cave and ask if the new moon has been sighted you can pretty much believe the report others give you if they all say the same thing. As I said before every 30 days the monthly cycle resets by default on this you can rely. As for Hillel the II's calendar I think it a good thing in that it was put together to keep all Israel on the same time clock no matter where on the earth they were. Hillel's calendar was however not God ordained and there is no scripture to verify this.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 4:18 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi:

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with.

And who exists as a judge to certify your witness as being truthful? Who has the authority to declare your witness as being false?

It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma.

What if it was not visible to the guy 30 miles from you? Who determines who is correct then? Does one celebrate the feasts on just any day that suits him?

Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon.

According to what Torah is your "feeling" justified by? What authority do you have to declare the New Moon for all Israel worldwide, let alone for yourself?

Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

You still have not addressed who has the authority to determine false witnesses to the New Moon, and thus who has the authority enact such a judgment and thus disqualify false witnesses so as to affect the calendar for the entire nation of Israel.

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

So you see the New Moon on day 1, but on day 1 I was in a cave, unable to see the New Moon, so then since you indicate above that the New Moon is dependent upon when "you" see it, ie me, then does that mean I celebrate all relevant holidays dependent on my lack of sighting one day later while you celebrate them from your sighting on day 1? Since when is the calendar of Israel an individual matter? And if it's a national matter, then according to Torah, who resolves disputes of national importance?

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

The Torah, where it says to "do all they tell you to do." That is just as much a part of Torah as everything else. As it is written: "if there arise a dispute" - we are to go to the judge and "turn no to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar.

Shalom,

Israel

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julius batalla

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:33:19 PM6/8/11

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Shaul,

Better get an approval first the from administrator of this site, but I am willing to visit your website anytime :)

regards, julius

infor...@sukkatdavid.net

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Jun 9, 2011, 8:44:46 AM6/9/11

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If it is true that we have been given discernment in G-d's matters, it
is also true that we need unity and accountant towards one another. A
man only cannot decide in his corner if it is New moon or not. At
least two or three people. And if it is true that Judaism has added
too much fences, the Rabbis have nevertheless done a great job in
keeping the unity of Am Yisrael throughout the centuries, which is not
really the case among the Messianics today. So for the sake of unity,
we decided here in Israel to stick to Judah and celebrate with your
people the Feasts. When Messiah will come, He will anyway rectify many
things. Let's not think that because we have the Ruach Hakodesh, we
understand everything, this would be pride. As long as we are divided
in the doctrine, this shows that we don't understand everything, for
the goal of the Torah in Yeshua is unity and the rebuilding of the
Tabernacle of David, i.e the Kingdom of Israel. One people, one Ruach,
one Torah, one Messiah and G-d and one love based on Truth. Shabbat
shalom

On Jun 9, 4:12 am, GORDON LAMBERT <lamber...@msn.com> wrote:
> Avi, GL says:
> I couldn't agree more. And I was raised in the Christian church. But left 9 month's ago. Glad for his healing of my blindness.

> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 02:24:26 -0500

> From: avi5...@gmail.com

> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>

> Message body

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>
> ~ The JC Team
>
> Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are
> those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and
> opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about

> this discussion group, send email to cont...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

>
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XuS Casal

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Jun 9, 2011, 11:45:16 AM6/9/11

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EXCELLENT!

> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 05:44:46 -0700
> Subject: [JC] Re: CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
> From: infor...@sukkatdavid.net
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

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ar...@rice.edu

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:31:11 PM6/9/11

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Ya'akov (James - renamed after King James) 1:26-27
Those who consider themselves religious
and yet DO NOT KEEP A TIGHT REIGN ON THEIR TONGUES
deceive themselves,
and their religion is worthless.
Religion that God our Father
accepts as PURE and FAULTLESS is this:
TO LOOK AFTER ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR DISTRESS (enter Christ's
mercy in DEED - contrary to the belief that deeds are of no
significance - here we see that religion without this particular act
is not faultless)
and TO KEEP ONESELF FROM BEING POLLUTED BY THE WORLD (enter Jewish
observance).

for those convinced the Church is a heavenly place full of love,
loving-kindness (Romans 12:9-11, "Love must be sincere. Hate what is
evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor
one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your
spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.")
on the contrary, very often this is what we see (I won't go into the
many times people in the (protestant) church have wronged/insulted me,
even to the point of destroying many things in my and my family's
life... full of envy, some people forget all moral restraints and let
their tongue go free in cunningly perfidious fashion):
1 Corinthians 12:12-15
"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground
from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with
us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles,
deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder,
for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not
surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of
righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

3 John 1:9-11

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not
welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing,
spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he
even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want
to do so and puts them out of the church. Dear friend, do not imitate
what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from
God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.

...not to mention the anti-semitism all over - a moral failure of the
highest order.

> does someone need to tell you when the weekly Shabbat begins?
> Where in the Torah do you find scriptural commandments to support
> your belief that someone in Israel appointed by some rabbis is the
> only person(s) that can determine the start of the moedim?

> Yes Judaism has a rabbinic rule to cover
> every possible situation that can possibly occur. There are so many
> rabbinic rules regarding how to observe the Sabbaths, feasts and
> dietary laws they overwhelm and confound rather than illuminate and
> make simple God's Laws.

Romans 14

1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over
disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything,
but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who
eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and
the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does,
for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s
servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will
stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another
considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in
their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the
Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to
God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for
ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we
die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he
might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do
you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s
judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead,
make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the
way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded
in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone
regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15
If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you
are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone
for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be
spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating
and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and
receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and
to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake
of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat
anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to
eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your
brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself
and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he
approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because
their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from
faith is sin.[c

> On the other side you have the Christian
> church telling you that you don't have to obey the laws of God.

I will no further comment on the Church cause it is very often a huge
mess - which is in stark contrast to organized Judaism. (talking about
the protestant - orthodox "christianity" is pure paganism, esp. in
Russia; catholicism, as long as it worships Mary's apparitions -
http://www.vimeo.com/11446695 - is just as idolatrous - even though it
is full of good deeds, without (true) faith deeds are dead).

If the rabbinic rules are too complex for you - simply don't follow
them, or follow that which you consider proper in your own opinion.
They were created for those who CAN follow them Without their faith
being disturbed.

Shalom,
Anna

Quoting GORDON LAMBERT <lamb...@msn.com>:

>
> Avi, GL says:
> I couldn't agree more. And I was raised in the Christian church.
> But left 9 month's ago. Glad for his healing of my blindness.

> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 02:24:26 -0500
> From: avi...@gmail.com
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Message body

GORDON LAMBERT

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:52:59 PM6/9/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

This is for Anna: Anna if what you just typed out was for GL Then you totally missed the understanding of who's side I am On! I was agreeing with AVI's comment
about the control, and the confusion, and the christian church telling you, that a person can just throw away YAW'S laws that he reaffirmed in the renewed covenant.
There is an american idiom that when someone says: "I couldn't agree with you more" that means "I totally agree!" with Avi. and what you typed below really good.
Thank you sister for the added information. But my eyes are open, and I see scripture totally in a different light. I don't know where you are at (location of where you live)
But I Live in the West. you know, the Greco/Roman linier thinkers. And in many ways we are not as free to observe all the Torah like the way things are set up in
Jerusalem. Where probably most stores close on Shabbat. But I guarantee you, that my wife and I are moving in the direction of Torah observance.

Please pray for us over here. There is so much anti-shemetic overtones here that it stinks like Dogs who haven't been washed in Torah.

> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:31:11 -0500
> From: ar...@rice.edu
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

GORDON LAMBERT

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:33:40 PM6/9/11

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All of Jerusalem. GL says: when I say "I couldn't agree with you more" That's an
American Idiom for "I totally agree" . If any of you, who ever you are, are agreeing with your brother Avi, but disagree with one point of what he said, and you misconstrued that I am disagreeing with you by agreeing with any point he made, therein lye's a confusion that I must clear up. I HATE THE LIES AND THE CURSES
THAT WE THE DIASPORA HAVE INHERITED! For 2800 +- years. I WILL ONLY SPEAK FOR WHAT THE WESTERN SIDE HAS RECEIVED. AS THE PROPHETS HAVE SAID, "TRULY WE HAVE INHERITED LIES! I SPENT 40 YEARS IN THE ROMAN SYSTEM, AND AM STILL STUCK HERE! TORAH IS THE RUACH HAKODESH. AND THE RUACH HAKODESH IS THE MESSIAH WHO WAS YAH IN THE FLESH. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOUR YOUNGER PRODIGAL SON DESERVES TORAH, THEN I REPENT AND RETURN TO IT
REGARDLESS OF PRIDE. But know this, your younger brother:
the one's who are returning to Torah, are starving over here and all over the world!
We see the real famine now. We were also blinded in part. But we all Love you.
Our older brother. And we all need your help.

shalam(perfect) shalom (peace) to all. mishcopa. (sp)

> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 05:44:46 -0700
> Subject: [JC] Re: CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
> From: infor...@sukkatdavid.net
> To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com
>

> UNSUBSCRIBE: go to http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcdelivery and click Unsubscribe

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> GROUP RULES: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/jcrules
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> ~ The JC Team
>

> Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

avi5207

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:36:08 PM6/9/11

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I'm not sure just exactly how to respond to what sounds like a rebuke.
If I am at fault for expressing my doubts about certain practices,
customs and beliefs commonly observed within Judaism today I honestly
don't know how. I agree in part with much you say. Since this is
supposed to be an open forum for honest discussion and or debate I
thought it appropriate to share my opinions. Was this a mistake on my
part Ann? You seem to have a very negative opinion of Christians in
general. Now as to works of righteousness I'd have to say Christians
have a track record of loving and helping others and especially Jews.
Christians also have the exact opposite record as history records. There
are good, kind and loving people in every culture, nation and age. In
Matthew 25 Yeshua explains that when we do good to others we do good to
Him and conversely if we don't do good to others we don't do good to
Him. In short we ignore the Spirit of the Torah as James clearly
explains in the first verse you quote. We must judge the fruit or works
that others bear regardless of their religion, color, race, culture,
gender or national origin. My number one complaint against all organized
religions and especially Judaism is that so many that are supposed to
lead often over complicate things through burdensome religious
doctrines. Yes we all need to be on the same page, of the same mind and
speaking the same things but I think it starts with relationship. We
must become one in Messiah through love, mercy and justice. Tolerance
for each other is essential. Respect given to each other is crucial and
as much a part of what true godly love is as charity. If I am guilty of
any transgressions it may be that I come across as judgmental,
condemning and or critical. I confess I am still a work in progress and
have some areas that need spiritual growth to occur in. As I said it
irks me when folks make the simple, easy to understand Word of God
overly difficult through doctrines that add or take away from the simple
truth. We all have an obligation to teach the truth in love. Often the
love part of what I just quoted falls by the wayside. A sad fact. Now
consider that Christians have been instrumental in helping Israel become
a nation. Christians have been extremely supportive of Jews and the
Jewish state. In fact without the financial and military support
Christians advocate for Israel and the Jewish people I dare say Israel
would not exist. So while you may have had many bad experiences with
Christians throughout your life it may be that at times you just plain
asked for it in the way you interacted with them. Then again perhaps
not? I know that if we verbally slap a Christian for wishing us a merry
Christmas it may be taken very personal. It hurts the feelings of others
when you reject their views, traditions and criticize their customs and
no where is this fact more visible than here on this board.... or so it
seems to me. In any case I bid you all true peace and may love, mercy
and justice walk hand in hand with you always.

Avi

> disputable matters. 2 One personï¿½s faith allows them to eat anything,

> but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who
> eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and
> the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does,

> for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone elseï¿½s

> servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will
> stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
> 5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another
> considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in
> their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the
> Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to
> God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
> 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for
> ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we
> die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9
> For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he
> might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
>
> 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do

> you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before Godï¿½s

> judgment seat. 11 It is written:
>

> ï¿½ï¿½As surely as I live,ï¿½ says the Lord,
> ï¿½every knee will bow before me;
> every tongue will acknowledge God.ï¿½ï¿½[b]

>> recommend you change your delivery options to ï¿½Daily Summaryï¿½ or

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ar...@rice.edu

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:56:49 PM6/9/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Brother,
Sorry sorry sorry! I know the idiom... :D I come from the West as well
and am completely westernized. I study in English so I'd have to know
that phrase :) O.k. - When I add to a discussion I don't necessarily
agree or disagree with Anyone's written text - I'm only seeking to
enrich the conversation and expose a different aspect of issues. I
apologize if Anyone Ever understood what I've replied under Any
subjectline as an opposition or confrontation. I seek theological
debate and fellowship - nothing more, nothing less. ((: I tend to be
highly opinionated so sometimes what I say can come out too strong. I
wasn't replying to you not to Avi - but rather to some of the ideas
brought up by Avi - SOME of the things, not ALL of them - with most of
what he said I do agree. :) Please take no offense. What I say often
comes from personal experience in my near surroundings and does not
represent most people's experience - i.e. it is often the case that
what I write can be subjective - just like anyone else's, even the
Apostles's writings, can at times be subjective and talking about
happenings they personally went through - whether negative or positive.
Will be praying for you.
Blessings,

ar...@rice.edu

unread,

Jun 9, 2011, 6:57:27 PM6/9/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Brother,
Sorry sorry sorry! I know the idiom... :D I come from the West as well
and am completely westernized. I study in English so I'd have to know
that phrase :) O.k. - When I add to a discussion I don't necessarily
agree or disagree with Anyone's written text - I'm only seeking to
enrich the conversation and expose a different aspect of issues. I
apologize if Anyone Ever understood what I've replied under Any
subjectline as an opposition or confrontation. I seek theological
debate and fellowship - nothing more, nothing less. ((: I tend to be
highly opinionated so sometimes what I say can come out too strong. I
wasn't replying to you not to Avi - but rather to some of the ideas
brought up by Avi - SOME of the things, not ALL of them - with most of
what he said I do agree. :) Please take no offense. What I say often
comes from personal experience in my near surroundings and does not
represent most people's experience - i.e. it is often the case that
what I write can be subjective - just like anyone else's, even the
Apostles's writings, can at times be subjective and talking about
happenings they personally went through - whether negative or positive.
Will be praying for you.
Blessings,

ar...@rice.edu

unread,

Jun 9, 2011, 7:17:36 PM6/9/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

lool Seems like everyone's awake tonight :D

> have had many bad experiences with Christians

as much as I've had bad experiences with Jews, Muslims, and atheists,
- perhaps a bit more. But Amen to everything you said, thank you for
your reminding note. I've been immensely helped and built up but every
one of these categories, and many people from among these groups I am
obligated to call "neighbors" due to the mercy they've shown me and
all the times they've helped me.
I have no negative opinion of anyone. I just don't trust people, nor
do I hope in them. I hope in God. But when a blow comes from your
ingroup you simply don't expect it and it carries you away.

"We must become one in Messiah through love, mercy and justice.
Tolerance for each other is essential. Respect given to each other is
crucial and as much a part of what true godly love is as charity."

There's nothing more I wish for.

avi5207

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Jun 9, 2011, 9:17:19 PM6/9/11

to jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Amen!

infor...@sukkatdavid.net

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Jun 9, 2011, 11:36:08 PM6/9/11

to JerusalemCouncil.org - Global Messianic Jewish Mailing List

We understand deeply. THis is why we strecht our arms to Ephraim and
open our heart to make a big place. We also learn from one another.
Torah was given in an open place, hefker, located in the middle of the
campement as in Gan Eden in order to be reachable for the longing
hearts. it is for free,let's study and unveil His beauty together.
This week Parasha teaches how to lift up the Shalevet of His Love.
Have a blessed Shabbat

On 10 juin, 01:33, GORDON LAMBERT <lamber...@msn.com> wrote:
> All of Jerusalem. GL says: when I say "I couldn't agree with you more" That's an
> American Idiom for "I totally agree" . If any of you, who ever you are, are agreeing with your brother Avi, but disagree with one point of what he said, and you misconstrued that I am disagreeing with you by agreeing with any point he made, therein lye's a confusion that I must clear up. I HATE THE LIES AND THE CURSES
> THAT WE THE DIASPORA HAVE INHERITED! For 2800 +- years. I WILL ONLY SPEAK FOR WHAT THE WESTERN SIDE HAS RECEIVED. AS THE PROPHETS HAVE SAID, "TRULY WE HAVE INHERITED LIES! I SPENT 40 YEARS IN THE ROMAN SYSTEM, AND AM STILL STUCK HERE! TORAH IS THE RUACH HAKODESH. AND THE RUACH HAKODESH IS THE MESSIAH WHO WAS YAH IN THE FLESH. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOUR YOUNGER PRODIGAL SON DESERVES TORAH, THEN I REPENT AND RETURN TO IT
> REGARDLESS OF PRIDE. But know this, your younger brother:
> the one's who are returning to Torah, are starving over here and all over the world!
> We see the real famine now. We were also blinded in part. But we all Love you.
> Our older brother. And we all need your help.
>
> shalam(perfect) shalom (peace) to all. mishcopa. (sp)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 05:44:46 -0700
> > Subject: [JC] Re: CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

> > From: informat...@sukkatdavid.net

> ...
>
> plus de détails »

Judaism's Answer

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Jun 7, 2011, 7:17:01 PM6/7/11

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Avi, this makes no sense.

1. The Torah is clear that all the laws and especially those of holidays are communal. One couldn't keep the Passover outside of the communal date. Therefore how can you go against the Torah and set up your own dates?

2. You are going against an explicit verse in Joshua. We are told to start counting the Omar from when we eat of the new grain and in Joshua 5:10-11 we see that was done the day after Passover. Obviously they didn't wait to start counting.

Moshe Shulman 718-436-7705 outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer: http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:02 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon. Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>

> --
> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

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>
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Judaism's Answer

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Jun 7, 2011, 7:17:39 PM6/7/11

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Good answer Israel.

Moshe Shulman 718-436-7705 outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer: http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:32 PM

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

Shalom Israel,

To answer your questions I'll insert my answers between your questions okay?

On 6/7/2011 11:04 AM, Israel wrote:

Chag sameach to all those looking to Shavuot tonight!

Avi I have a q for you:

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 7:02 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon.

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with. It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma. Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon. Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

I think you need to get back to the Torah of the matter: "if there arise a dispute" - and not "turn to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar (thank G-d they had the foresight to give us that calendar before they disbanded, lest we be without any calendar at all!)

Shalom,

Israel

Shalom,

Avi

Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>
> --
> ====[THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL MAILING LIST]=====

> This group receives A LOT of email. To prevent a flooded inbox we recommend you change your delivery options to “Daily Summary” or “Abridged."

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> Shalom
> ~ The JC Team
>
> Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this email are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions held by JerusalemCouncil.org. If you have questions about this discussion group, send email to con...@jerusalemcouncil.org.

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Judaism's Answer

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Jun 7, 2011, 7:18:18 PM6/7/11

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Can you email it to me?

Moshe Shulman 718-436-7705 outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer: http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: infor...@sukkatdavid.net

To: JerusalemCouncil.org - Global Messianic Jewish Mailing List

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:32 AM

Subject: [JC] Re: CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

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avi5207

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Jun 10, 2011, 10:55:26 AM6/10/11

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I think you are confusing first fruits with the wave sheaf offering that is to occur on the day after the weekly Sabbath.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 6:17 PM, Judaism's Answer wrote:

Avi, this makes no sense.

ï¿½

1. The Torah is clear that all the laws and especially those of holidays are communal. One couldn't keep the Passover outside of the communal date. Therefore how can you go against the Torah and set up your own dates?

ï¿½

2. You are going against an explicit verse in Joshua. We are told to start counting the Omar from when we eat of the new grain and in Joshua 5:10-11 we see that was done the day after Passover. Obviously they didn't wait to start counting.

Moshe Shulmanï¿½ï¿½ 718-436-7705ï¿½ outr...@judaismsanswer.com
Judaism's Answer:ï¿½ http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: avi5207

To: jerusale...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:02 AM

Subject: Re: [JC] CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!

108 hours to go here in Oklahoma if you go by the sighted new moon. Shavuot begins at the end of this coming Shabbat since according to scripture we are to count 50 days from the first Sunday after the 15th day of Aviv or unleavened bread. This makes perfect sense if you consider the fact that Yeshua was raised up on the Sunday or the first day of counting the omer as well as the day the high priest waved the first fruits offering of a perfect sheave of barley before YHVH. Consider too the distinct possibility that Yeshua was killed on the 15th or first day of unleavened bread. Only the circumcised could partake of the Passover lamb but all, both Jew and Gentile could partake of the unleavened bread.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 5:08 AM, Kenny Cartwright wrote:

Sixteen hours in Texas to go- Chag Sameach!!
Kenny Cartwright

On Jun 7, 2011 3:37 AM, "julius batalla" <julius...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JC,
>
> 2 hours before SHAVUOT here in Manila,
>
> CHAG SAMEACH!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> regards, julius
>
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Israel

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Jun 10, 2011, 11:21:02 AM6/10/11

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Avi, my response is in-line below:

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:24 AM, avi5207 <avi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Israel does someone need to tell you when the weekly Shabbat begins? Where in the Torah do you find scriptural commandments to support your belief that someone in Israel appointed by some rabbis is the only person(s) that can determine the start of the moedim?

Leviticus 23:44
So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD.

Leviticus 23:44
וידבר משה את-מעדי יהוה אל-בני ישראל

The Torah teaches us very clearly that only the leader of the nation, the nasi of the Sanhedrin, can declare the moedim of HaShem to Israel. Notice that it says וידבר משה (And Moshe declared) and not וידבר אתה (And you declared) the appointed times of HaShem to the children of Israel.

The Torah is very clear on this matter who declares it - and it can only be someone who sits in the "seat of Moshe" - whom our Master said are the "Pharisees" and who tells us to do what they say:

Mattew 23:1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

I hope this resolves the dilemma for you.

Shalom,

Israel

All anyone has to do is look up at the night sky with their own eyes. Anyone that has eyes to see with will see the new moon for themselves. We don't need someone to tell us its the new moon. As I said before it is a scientific fact that the moon cycles every 29.53 days if you don't see the new moon on the 29th then by default the 30th at even whether visible or not begins the new month. Simple really and it's not rocket science. The whole problem I have with Pharisaic Judaism is that in many ways it is no different than any other false religion ruled by false priests that hold the truth in secret. Yes its all about control over the masses through confusion, fear and intimidation. The church is just as guilty in this matter. Col. 2 is all about rejecting man's doctrines and traditions that seek to ensnare, manipulate and control the sheep. On the Judaism side you have all the fences around the fences around the fences around God's very simple to understand instructions by even simple sheepherders and farmers. Yes Judaism has a rabbinic rule to cover every possible situation that can possibly occur. There are so many rabbinic rules regarding how to observe the Sabbaths, feasts and dietary laws they overwhelm and confound rather than illuminate and make simple God's Laws. On the other side you have the Christian church telling you that you don't have to obey the laws of God. Why do I need you or anyone to tell me when the weekly Sabbath begins? If you come out of your cave and ask if the new moon has been sighted you can pretty much believe the report others give you if they all say the same thing. As I said before every 30 days the monthly cycle resets by default on this you can rely. As for Hillel the II's calendar I think it a good thing in that it was put together to keep all Israel on the same time clock no matter where on the earth they were. Hillel's calendar was however not God ordained and there is no scripture to verify this.

Shalom,

Avi

On 6/7/2011 4:18 PM, Israel wrote:

Avi:

And who sited the New Moon you're referring to?

I sighted it with my own two eyes that God gave me to see with.

And who exists as a judge to certify your witness as being truthful? Who has the authority to declare your witness as being false?

It was visible last Friday evening about 8:45 here in Oklahoma.

What if it was not visible to the guy 30 miles from you? Who determines who is correct then? Does one celebrate the feasts on just any day that suits him?

Now If I have the God given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and such I fell very confident in being qualified to see and declare a new moon.

According to what Torah is your "feeling" justified by? What authority do you have to declare the New Moon for all Israel worldwide, let alone for yourself?

Now I know that everything is supposed to be sighted from Israel but even though we are 8 hours behind Israel and the new moon will be sighted there before it is sighted here it is still the same moon. The Sabbath day may start in Israel 8 hours before it does here but it is still the same Sabbath day.

You still have not addressed who has the authority to determine false witnesses to the New Moon, and thus who has the authority enact such a judgment and thus disqualify false witnesses so as to affect the calendar for the entire nation of Israel.

And what judge in Israel on the earth today has the authority to certify the witnesses as being correct and thus declare the New Moon for all Israel? Certainly I am not aware of anyone carrying such smicha. Unless of course you're following a self-appointed judge who has the authority to somehow overturn the national ruling the established Sanhedrin made 1800 years ago by giving us a calculated calender since G-d himself was disbanding the Sanhedrin at that time by persecutions. To which end I ask then what if someone else's self-appointed judge conflicts with the ruling of your judge? Who then will judge between them - and who is Israel to follow?

It's really very simple actually. The moon cycles are 29.53 days so if you don't see it then the 30th day is by default the new moon.

So you see the New Moon on day 1, but on day 1 I was in a cave, unable to see the New Moon, so then since you indicate above that the New Moon is dependent upon when "you" see it, ie me, then does that mean I celebrate all relevant holidays dependent on my lack of sighting one day later while you celebrate them from your sighting on day 1? Since when is the calendar of Israel an individual matter? And if it's a national matter, then according to Torah, who resolves disputes of national importance?

G-d gave us the calculated calendar because of our sins. No judge exists yet (and no Sanhedrin currently has the authority) to overturn that calendar handed down to us by the authorities G-d established 1800 years ago who can claim such smicha in a line back to Moshe, and thus overturn it. Certainly not Nehemiah Gordon and those who follow him as if he has some special smicha to rule over all Israel in this matter.

God didn't give us a calculated calender where did you get this from?

The Torah, where it says to "do all they tell you to do." That is just as much a part of Torah as everything else. As it is written: "if there arise a dispute" - we are to go to the judge and "turn no to the right or left from they tell you" - even a calculated calendar.

Shalom,

Israel

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avi5207

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Jun 10, 2011, 11:26:12 AM6/10/11

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Nope!

Yoseph ben Gershon

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Jun 10, 2011, 12:04:24 PM6/10/11

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WWYD?

We see the death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah and focus on that one year and focus on what He did then. What about the other 30+ years of His life? What about the life of John the Baptist and his parents? What did they do? What about Paul? What did he do?

If we look at history we know that the Sadducees ran the temple service but that the Pharisees controlled the Sanhedrin and therefore controlled the calendar. If we look at John the Baptist's father we see that he served as a priest and did so according to the Pharisaic calendar. He and his wife were considered righteous. John the Baptist was raised within that home and would have celebrated the feasts accordingly.

Yeshua went to the Temple for Pesach at age 12 and presumably went each year of His life for all of the commuting festivals. He celebrated each of the feasts according to the Pharisaic calendar as we know that no one could celebrate a feast in the temple whenever they so chose but had to do so according to the Pharisaic calendar. Therefore Yeshua celebrated the feasts for His entire life according to the Pharisaic calendar.

If we look at Paul, makes it clear that he is a Pharisee and that he has :committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:8). That being the case he had to celebrate the feasts according to the reckoning used in the temple. We also see in Acts 20:16 that Paul was trying to get back to Jerusalem for Shavuot. If he was celebrating it according to a different calendar than the temple service, it would not be relevant.

If we look at the disciples we see that they were Pharisees and that the new converts were a part of the sect of the Way which was a sect of the Pharisees.

We have no evidence of any disciple of Yeshua, Yeshua Himself, Paul, or any other believer ever celebrating the feasts according to the Saduccee's calendar. The use of the Sadducee's calendar as it relates to Shavuot, by the believing community is introduced as part of the support for shifting Shabbat to Sunday.

If you do not wish to use Biblical evidence to see that First Fruits of Pesach is on the 16th of Nissan, then look at historical evidence.

When one decides to celebrate Shavuot according to their own reckoning they have not only usurped the authority of the "Sanhedrin" given to them in Lev 23, but they have destroyed their witness to the Jewish people about them. How are we to make them jealous when we are rebellious instead of submitted? How are we to present the Messiah as perfect when our actions present Him as one who was rebellious and sinful? We are to be His disciples. We are to imitate Him. When we do something, we are saying by our actions that this is something that Yeshua did or would do. I can assure you with 100% certainty that Yeshua did not celebrate the feasts contrary to the calendar used within the Temple and the majority of synagogues of His day. I can also assure you with 100% certainty that Paul did not either as that is explicitly stated. His disciples did not either.

To that end, I hope you enjoyed your celebration of Shavuot. Have a blessed Shabbat.