Hi folks,we had discussions here about requiring java 6 for Jenkins. I don't see a major benefit for using it, as new API/feature would offer border-line changes to jenkins codebase. Same for Java 7 (which is announced EOL anyway)Makes me wonder if we could start discussion on migrating to Java 8. This would allow use of default methods for interface based extension, lambdas, and few other significant features for plugin and core developers. This won't prevent people to build project on java 1.1 if they wish.wdyt ?
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Doesn't the openJDK support AIX now[2]? (not that I would run my jenkins cluster on openJDK[3] - but it does provide hope for those that need it)
This would just leave HP-UX out in the cold.
/James
[1] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk8-arm-downloads-2187472.html
[2] http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~simonis/ppc-aix-port/
[3] been bitten by OpenJDK 7s buggyness and it has taineted be - even though 8 is far supperior in quatlity
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It is also not just so called esoteric OSes that do not have Java8. Take Ubuntu for example. The current latest release 14.04 still doesn't have Java8 as a native package. IIUC you currently have to rely on installing it from somebody's private repository (and I have no way of trusting these guys.) This means our DEB package will not be installable on its own.
Here's another one. IBM still hasn't released JDK8. If you are an IBM shop and need to use IBM JDK for support contracts, you'll be left behind.
It is also not just so called esoteric OSes that do not have Java8. Take Ubuntu for example. The current latest release 14.04 still doesn't have Java8 as a native package. IIUC you currently have to rely on installing it from somebody's private repository (and I have no way of trusting these guys.) This means our DEB package will not be installable on its own.Or, just download & unarchive it from oracle.com.
Here's another one. IBM still hasn't released JDK8. If you are an IBM shop and need to use IBM JDK for support contracts, you'll be left behind.You'll be waiting a long time if you're expecting that to change. I've got customers whose IBM 'support contracts' make them claim things like they can only run JDK1.4.That's fine. They should stick on a support branch that keeps them happy, if that's the case (and, I'd expect, pay fees to a Jenkins shop to fix the tickets they raise). But I don't see why the rest of us should be dragged down to their lowest-common denominator behaviour - because 2% of the install base can't (or, more likely, doesn't want to exert any effort to) change, I have to write all my code (that I'm giving away for free) using stone knives and bearskins. Not terribly appealing for those of us doing it 'for fun'.
+1I think it is fine to "allow java 8" but not require it.Requiring the latest version of java to run Jenkins just means that many shops will stop upgrading Jenkins.Compared to whatever new esoteric language features JDK8 has, stability of the Jenkins production platform concerns far outweigh convenience or curiosity concerns for Jenkins developers.To put it graphically:Production platform stability: whaleJenkins developer convenience: anchovySo that's my vote. ;)
At 12:23 PM -0700 9/24/14, Kohsuke Kawaguchi wrote:
Lack of a recent JDK on some exotic systems (*) was already a blocker for Java 6 upgrade, that's a real issue, but on the other side we can't stuck to java 5 just because SCO-Unix don't have a better JDK.As suggested by Dominik, I think starting a 2.x branch to require java 8 would make sense. Springframework major releases were driven by minimal JDK updates, for the same reason, as this is the main compatibility breaker form a user point of view.(*) I wonder anyone tried to build OpenJDK on those platforms, even not officially supported
You mean when Java 8 is past it's EOL, Java 9 is current and 10 in beta ;-)
Regards
Mirko
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As said when I opened this topic, I can't see major benefit in requiring Java 7 from a developer point of view (some syntactic sugar, few new API, what else ?), compared to huge benefit of Java 8 to review API design and extensibility.
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I'm sorry but yet again you appear to be taking a very rude attitude with other community members with basically "your opinion does not matter".
Last time I checked I was part of the *we* by being part of the community and simply saying update your infrastructure trivialises the situation for what is possibly a reasonable user base of Jenkins.
Java 7 is not even end of lifed yet and so I'm wondering what the compelling argument for Java 8 is. That is, what features does it enable that will drive Jenkins to the next level?
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I'm sorry but yet again you appear to be taking a very rude attitude with other community members with basically "your opinion does not matter".
Last time I checked I was part of the *we* by being part of the community and simply saying update your infrastructure trivialises the situation for what is possibly a reasonable user base of Jenkins.
Java 7 is not even end of lifed yet and so I'm wondering what the compelling argument for Java 8 is. That is, what features does it enable that will drive Jenkins to the next level?
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<mailto:martin.kutter@fen-net.de>> wrote:
> Just want to throw in that java 8 is not yet available on all platforms
> (like AIX, HP-UX and probably some other less frequently used commercial
> UNIXes).
I checked the anonymous usage stats a few weeks ago:
Out of 93,400 installs, we know the master's OS for 85,200 of them.
285 are AIX. 120 are HP-UX. 50 installs total on OpenBSD, Darwin,
OS/400, z/OS and NetBSD.
Not relevant enough IMO if the advantages are significant.
I can provide the queries I used if anyone wants to verify these.
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> What prevent you to get JDK8 on slave to run the remoting agent, but use
>JDK installer to build your legacy JDK 1.1 application ?
In many cases this is possible. I don't think this is documented all that
well though (I've done it once and it took me a while to get it right). I
would imagine this is something that should be in an upgrade guide. If you
can't run JDK8, then you get to run a legacy Jenkins install.
> Sorry, but rhel5 is not something that we should care about, AFAIR it on
>extended support. You can still use ancient jenkins version and ask RHEL
>support to do patches for jenkins. RHEL6 and RHEL7 were released long
>time ago - update your infra.
I don't think we should be making sure NEW release cycles support RHEL5.
It is in extended support, people in that environment should be
comfortable dealing with tools from that era. That said, there are ways to
make it work, but it shouldn't be blessed.
> And it's simply not possible to update Jenkins (master) in isolation,
>the remoting model requires that all slaves use similar JREs, and satisfy
>the minimum requirements.
But we shouldn't stay at Java6 forever. I am seeing a lot of hints at
making some radical changes/improvements. Should we really be talking of a
Jenkins2 and not expect people to auto-update to it? We could offer 1 or 2
more LTS on the 1.x track.
-
Thomas
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But we shouldn't stay at Java6 forever. I am seeing a lot of hints at
making some radical changes/improvements. Should we really be talking of a
Jenkins2 and not expect people to auto-update to it? We could offer 1 or 2
more LTS on the 1.x track.
What would change in 3/ 6 months ?Lot's of people will still run RHEL 5 and build legacy Java 1.3 applications.
Ok, maybe 10 LTS's then. We need to have a plan for supporting the past and the future. If we do have so many people wanting the java6 branch, then they should be able to support it. It sounds like we have a large number of people interested in java8 and I don't think such a transition will be ready for quite some time. I imagine we will also have people using both and maintaining both. I still have RHEL5 and a SPARC and I will do what I have to with those as long as I need to. But I also have bleeding edge items and I'd like to see Jenkins continue to push that envelope. This is a community, I can't imagine that if the mainline moved on to Java8 we wouldn't still help those who are still using the current mainline.
-Thomas
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I think there's confusion over 'support' and 'develop'. Going JDK8 should not imply dropping non-JDK6 versions:Take Tomcat as an example. Tomcat 9 requires a newer JDK than Tomcat 8. That does not mean that Tomcat 8 isn't receiving 'support', or that it's stopped working - it's getting fixes, it's not EOL - it's probably what most people are actually building products on. Indeed Tomcat 6 still gets fixes. But 'new development' is happening elsewhere.In the context of 'LTS', I don't think it's acceptable to simply bump a heap of external requirements; if I were on a maintenance contract, I'd yell too! A Jenkins 1.xxx line should continue to receive fixes (e.g security, critical bugs, whatever else the community finds). A Jenkins 2.xxx line should take the opportunity to upgrade to JDK8 (and perhaps bump up some libraries like guava while it's at it).
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JDK7 is end of life after April 2015, so in May 2015 if we pick the second model then we would be JDK8.... but the LTS released in late April will have been JDK7 and JDK8... as technically only at then end of April is JDK7 EOL.The advantage of the second model is that the July LTS will be JDK8
JDK7 is end of life after April 2015, so in May 2015 if we pick the second model then we would be JDK8.... but the LTS released in late April will have been JDK7 and JDK8... as technically only at then end of April is JDK7 EOL.The advantage of the second model is that the July LTS will be JDK8So it could be there's some confusion around "LTS", as the wiki says it follows the ubuntu model, but is it really the same?
I.E: If I use Ubuntu 14.10, I'll basically get updates for 9 months, after which if I want a fix, I'll have to flip to 15.04 (There's an overlap).If I want stability, I pick an LTS version (released every 2 years) - 14.04 LTS - which is supported for 5 years. It gets no new features in that time, but it does receive updates (indeed we're up to 14.04.2 already).So ubuntu is a release every 6 months, an LTS release every 2 years, with LTS 'support' for 5 years.Jenkins is a release ~every week, an LTS release every 12 weeks, with LTS 'support' for 12 weeks.
12 weeks seems like a very short period of 'support'. Trying to put myself in the shoes of 'corporate IT world', isn't that saying that if I build my infra (and JDK) around Jenkins 1.xxx.1 - I'll get only 12 weeks grace before the possibility that a security fix might mean I need to change my JDK ?
Now - I am perfectly comfortable with that (indeed we step our environment to match the Jenkins LTS editions), but I can see that a side-effect might be those with conservative environments trying hard to make sure that when the 'version with the fix' comes around, basically trying torpedo JDK8 or anything else.
I'm also perfectly comfortable with the possibility that if you need Jenkins 1.xxx.(n>3), then you obtain those by either contributing the backporting effort yourself, or having a maintenance contract with Cloudbees|A.N.Other that does it for you.
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D'oh - sorry, no idea how I missed those words. Guess that's what comes of replying to emails at 11pm...
Richard
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Nicolas, your logic is not correct in that we only force users to upgrade once.Just because we would require JDK7 does not mean the user needs to install JDK7 and then JDK8 when we require JDK8. They can (if their platform supports it) install JDK8 straight away and run Jenkins compiled for JDK7 on it, so they have only one upgrade.
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2015-03-26 12:57 GMT+01:00 James Nord <james...@gmail.com>:Nicolas, your logic is not correct in that we only force users to upgrade once.Just because we would require JDK7 does not mean the user needs to install JDK7 and then JDK8 when we require JDK8. They can (if their platform supports it) install JDK8 straight away and run Jenkins compiled for JDK7 on it, so they have only one upgrade.Those users are the one who follow jenkins ML and announcements. I'm considering here the one who will discover JDK requirement changed, then will complain and eventually upgrade JDK. Then few month later this would happen again
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I'm going to try the "code walks" approach.... here is my suggestion https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/1624I'm sure that nicolas will complain about that one
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Nicolas, your logic is not correct in that we only force users to upgrade once.Just because we would require JDK7 does not mean the user needs to install JDK7 and then JDK8 when we require JDK8. They can (if their platform supports it) install JDK8 straight away and run Jenkins compiled for JDK7 on it, so they have only one upgrade.Those users are the one who follow jenkins ML and announcements. I'm considering here the one who will discover JDK requirement changed, then will complain and eventually upgrade JDK. Then few month later this would happen again
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Oracle aren't very forthcoming with details but the last big security pack (Jan 2015) contained CVE-2015-0410 which is marked remotely exploitable via the network. Whilst some things may not seem exploitable some plugins do things like image manipulation which has been exploitable in the past and will run on the master.
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nbsp;!
Kohsuke, I just read the whole thread, and I'm under the impression that there was also some kind of consensus to make JDK8 the basis in a second step.
So, shouldn't we reflect that by having in the T0 communications some kind of statement like "upgrading to JDK7 as min requirement now, and bump to JDK8 will certainly be considered in the upcoming months", so that users prepare themselves.
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Certainly we should recommend Java 8 as the preferred runtime.
In general I think we should recommend the latest Java general release according to Oracle. That implies routinely testing against EA builds of the next line (9 currently) so that we are not caught unprepared by showstopper incompatibilities as happened with 8 (due to bytecode manipulation libraries not handling new rt.jar properly, IIUC).
Certainly we should recommend Java 8 as the preferred runtime.
In general I think we should recommend the latest Java general release according to Oracle. That implies routinely testing against EA builds of the next line (9 currently) so that we are not caught unprepared by showstopper incompatibilities as happened with 8 (due to bytecode manipulation libraries not handling new rt.jar properly, IIUC).
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2015-03-28 11:01 GMT+01:00 Jesse Glick <jgl...@cloudbees.com>:Certainly we should recommend Java 8 as the preferred runtime.
In general I think we should recommend the latest Java general release according to Oracle. That implies routinely testing against EA builds of the next line (9 currently) so that we are not caught unprepared by showstopper incompatibilities as happened with 8 (due to bytecode manipulation libraries not handling new rt.jar properly, IIUC).
Agree. Added to my TODO to add a JDK 7/8/9 matrix build on jenkins.ci.cloudbees.com to test jenkins compat with current and future JDKs