OT: Manners make for a more inclusive debate (was Re: [PROPOSAL] Semi-automated detection of unmaintained plugins)

[Stephen Connolly]

On 9 June 2015 at 15:04, Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 9, 2015, at 16:05, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:

2015-06-09 14:53 GMT+02:00 Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com>:

> On Jun 9, 2015, at 15:47, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:
>

snip 

> Btw, there should also be a documented way to move a plugin out of the attic (either because you missed the PR, or because a plugin got new maintainers).

Why end-user in update center should care about when last commit was done? If plugin works and solves user issues - nobody cares and this label will just confuse. Some plugins are jut libraries (like github-api plugin) and they can be stable for long time, such PRs will look like WTF.

End users are (typically) Jenkins admins. 

Wrong, i know more examples where jenkins is used by developers (just because not every projects wants stuff jenkins admins because of using jenkins).

FYI, the tone of the above sentence comes across as both rude and aggressive.

So in your case you know more examples where Jenkins is used by developers... can you state with absolute certainty that this is the case for the majority of the 111k+ installations?

Unless you can prove that at least 56k installations are majority used by developers then you cannot use "Wrong"... there are other ways to make the same point that are more inclusive of debate

[Kanstantsin Shautsou]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 5:32:05 PM UTC+3, Stephen Connolly wrote:

On 9 June 2015 at 15:04, Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 9, 2015, at 16:05, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:

2015-06-09 14:53 GMT+02:00 Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com>:

> On Jun 9, 2015, at 15:47, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:
>

snip 

> Btw, there should also be a documented way to move a plugin out of the attic (either because you missed the PR, or because a plugin got new maintainers).

Why end-user in update center should care about when last commit was done? If plugin works and solves user issues - nobody cares and this label will just confuse. Some plugins are jut libraries (like github-api plugin) and they can be stable for long time, such PRs will look like WTF.

End users are (typically) Jenkins admins. 

Wrong, i know more examples where jenkins is used by developers (just because not every projects wants stuff jenkins admins because of using jenkins).

FYI, the tone of the above sentence comes across as both rude and aggressive.

So in your case you know more examples where Jenkins is used by developers... can you state with absolute certainty that this is the case for the majority of the 111k+ installations?

No, and could you prove that "End users are (typically) Jenkins admins."? Because this statement is used as base for enforcing weird rules to plugin developers (me).

Unless you can prove that at least 56k installations are majority used by developers then you cannot use "Wrong"... there are other ways to make the same point that are more inclusive of debate

Not proved -> wrong for me. So my point can be also "wrong" for you.

Sorry if i used not appropriate word, english is not my primary language.

[Stephen Connolly]

On 9 June 2015 at 16:34, Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 5:32:05 PM UTC+3, Stephen Connolly wrote:

On 9 June 2015 at 15:04, Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 9, 2015, at 16:05, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:

2015-06-09 14:53 GMT+02:00 Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com>:

> On Jun 9, 2015, at 15:47, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:
>

snip 

> Btw, there should also be a documented way to move a plugin out of the attic (either because you missed the PR, or because a plugin got new maintainers).

Why end-user in update center should care about when last commit was done? If plugin works and solves user issues - nobody cares and this label will just confuse. Some plugins are jut libraries (like github-api plugin) and they can be stable for long time, such PRs will look like WTF.

End users are (typically) Jenkins admins. 

Wrong, i know more examples where jenkins is used by developers (just because not every projects wants stuff jenkins admins because of using jenkins).

FYI, the tone of the above sentence comes across as both rude and aggressive.

So in your case you know more examples where Jenkins is used by developers... can you state with absolute certainty that this is the case for the majority of the 111k+ installations?

No, and could you prove that "End users are (typically) Jenkins admins."? Because this statement is used as base for enforcing weird rules to plugin developers (me).

So you could have said something like:

> That is not my experience. I know more examples where jenkins is used by developers...

Which would be a perfectly fine way of getting your point across.

 

Unless you can prove that at least 56k installations are majority used by developers then you cannot use "Wrong"... there are other ways to make the same point that are more inclusive of debate

Not proved -> wrong for me. So my point can be also "wrong" for you.

If you'd lead with "not proved" in place of "wrong" I would have let that be.... in fact if you had not started the sentence with wrong it would have been ok...

When you start a sentence with "Wrong, ..." it comes across as "WRONG!!! And here is why you are a complete idiot..."

You may not have intended that effect, but that is the effect your usage has!

 

Sorry if i used not appropriate word, english is not my primary language.

That's fine that English is not your primary language, but when somebody who does have english as their primary language offers advice on how to use it, the polite person takes that advice on board. 

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[Kanstantsin Shautsou]

On Jun 9, 2015, at 18:51, Stephen Connolly <stephen.al...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9 June 2015 at 16:34, Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 5:32:05 PM UTC+3, Stephen Connolly wrote:

On 9 June 2015 at 15:04, Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 9, 2015, at 16:05, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:

2015-06-09 14:53 GMT+02:00 Kanstantsin Shautsou <kanstan...@gmail.com>:

> On Jun 9, 2015, at 15:47, Baptiste Mathus <bma...@batmat.net> wrote:
>

snip 

> Btw, there should also be a documented way to move a plugin out of the attic (either because you missed the PR, or because a plugin got new maintainers).

Why end-user in update center should care about when last commit was done? If plugin works and solves user issues - nobody cares and this label will just confuse. Some plugins are jut libraries (like github-api plugin) and they can be stable for long time, such PRs will look like WTF.

End users are (typically) Jenkins admins. 

Wrong, i know more examples where jenkins is used by developers (just because not every projects wants stuff jenkins admins because of using jenkins). 

FYI, the tone of the above sentence comes across as both rude and aggressive.

So in your case you know more examples where Jenkins is used by developers... can you state with absolute certainty that this is the case for the majority of the 111k+ installations?

No, and could you prove that "End users are (typically) Jenkins admins."? Because this statement is used as base for enforcing weird rules to plugin developers (me).

So you could have said something like:

> That is not my experience. I know more examples where jenkins is used by developers...

Which would be a perfectly fine way of getting your point across.

 

Unless you can prove that at least 56k installations are majority used by developers then you cannot use "Wrong"... there are other ways to make the same point that are more inclusive of debate

Not proved -> wrong for me. So my point can be also "wrong" for you.

If you'd lead with "not proved" in place of "wrong" I would have let that be.... in fact if you had not started the sentence with wrong it would have been ok...

When you start a sentence with "Wrong, ..." it comes across as "WRONG!!! And here is why you are a complete idiot…”

Well, any email is written from me is subjective, so you can perceive the message as “imho”. As you see i’m not using caps (excluding abbreviations) and never said that somebody idiot. 

I’m technical guy and mostly concentrated on jenkins quality in my personal time. So sorry if it looks rude for you.

You may not have intended that effect, but that is the effect your usage has!

 

Sorry if i used not appropriate word, english is not my primary language.

That's fine that English is not your primary language, but when somebody who does have english as their primary language offers advice on how to use it, the polite person takes that advice on board. 

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