Yes!

[Greg David]

Hi Folks,

We are on again for today.

Last week we worked on figuring out the electronics that control that would control the bowel. I ordered parts for this, but they are not in yet.

So this week, I'd like to get the ridged bowel set up to run. That's the steel drum bowel that sits in the front of the green house. It'd be way cool to have it working to take up to MREA. Instead of a timed - automated stirrerer, I was thinking to hook the paddles up to a hand crank, that can be turned bay a grouch crank. 

Also bring your asparagus picking shoes and a shopping bag.

See you soon,

Greg

Bill, we all missed you last week, but none more than Ragsy

Greg David

W4512 Riverdale Lane

Watertown, WI 53094

(920)262-9996 home

(920) 988-5629

[Benjamin Nelson]

Speaking of methane,

I got a chance to visit Kwik-Trip's new multi-fueling station in La Crosse on Thursday.

They have Natural Gas, Bio-diesel, E-85, and more all set up for commericial and public use. As part of the expo, they had a number of bi-fuel (gasoline AND/OR compressed natural gas) on display.

I was told that there was supposed to be a natural-gas powered motorcycle there. (They did have the CNG Mustang and a LNG Race Car!) That got me thinking about using fuel from the methane digester as an engine fuel. http://300mpg.org/2012/05/kwik-trip-natural-gas-summit/

I already have a Kawasaki motorcycle that needs some work on the carburators. I figure I would have to mess with that to use any type of alternative fuel anyways, so maybe it would be a good vehicle to experimentally run methane. What would be required to get enough methane from the digester, clean it, compress it, and store it on a motorcycle?

It is a Kawasaki, but if it was running on methane, it could be a COW-asaki!

-Ben

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[Kurt Reinhold]

Ben,  Excellent report and video.  I like your Cow-asaki idea too!  Let's make it happen!

 

Kurt Reinhold

[Patrick Keller]

As a first step the bike could be made to run on propane from a 20 lb propane tank.  If methane is put into the propane tank, it could work in a similar way.

 

Got to think about safety with the compressed gas container.  If you’re interested we could discuss ways to handle it.

 

Pat

[Patrick Keller]

Saw a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) powered lawn mower made by Dixie Choppers at Dave’s Turf and Marine near Watertown.  Here’s a webpage about the product: Dixie Chopper launches World's First CNG riding mower .  Would be good to study how they do it.

 

From: jefferson-county-comm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jefferson-county-comm...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Nelson
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 9:04 AM
To: jefferson-county-comm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Jef. Co. CSE} Yes!

 

Speaking of methane,

[megados megados]

Converting engines to natural gas is pretty easy . . . the hard part
is tanks to hold the CNG pressure.

On 5/16/12, Patrick Keller <pat.k...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Saw a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) powered lawn mower made by Dixie Choppers
> at Dave's Turf and Marine near Watertown. Here's a webpage about the
> product: Dixie Chopper launches World's First CNG riding mower

> <http://green.autoblog.com/2009/04/20/dixie-chopper-launches-worlds-first-cn
> g-riding-mower/> . Would be good to study how they do it.

[Greg David]

Cool.

Great video! Captures the story well and shows just how efficient renewable fuel vehicles can be. 

If we we to do this (compress CH4), we'd have to scrub the biogas of hydrogen sulfide and CO2, which can be done by passing it thru a lime water slurry and some steel wool, compress (whoompa- whoompa - whoompa), and store it in a high pressure tank. Unlike hydrogen, which leaks easy, CH4 has a BIG carbon atom attached to it, so it doesn't easily slip thru solid matter as easily as H2, and so most material will work for building the tank. I think this could be done rather cheaply and successfully. Range will depend on how much we want to spend on a great tank.  A good steel tank can prolly get you around town and a great carbon-fiber/epoxy can get you further.

I think it'd be a fun and useful thing to experiment with. It would be interesting to see just how effective the slime water solution will scrub CO2 from the biogas will be. Biogas prolly comes out of the digester between 60-65% CH4, and 95% of the rest of the biogas being CO2 and a teeny fraction H2 and a teenier fraction hydrogen sulfide. 

Let's find a compressor, build a filter, and compress some methane! We're just a few days away from firing up the digesters, and will have gas a few days later. It will need to be bubbled thru a 55 gallon drum of  hydrated lime, a pack of steel wool and then cycle separated and then compressed. And had a budget of $5000 to 100,000.  I can get a filter rigged and have a couple old steel tanks (O2, CO2, propane). If someone wants to rig a compressor, we'd be set.

I got a picture in my head of a motor cycle with a big oxygen tank, laid flat and used as the frame for a motor cycle, with engine, wheel stays, seat, handlebars and everything else attached to it. If it were to use carbon fiber frame tank could be formed into the shape of a super light, aerodynamic  dynamic, structurally efficient frame for the cycle. That might be another step or two down the road…

-Greg

Greg David

W4512 Riverdale Lane

Watertown, WI 53094

(920)262-9996 home

(920) 988-5629

[megados megados]

"Unlike hydrogen, which leaks easy, CH4 has a BIG carbon atom attached
to it, so it doesn't easily slip thru solid matter as easily as H2,
and so most material will work for building the tank."

It really does depend on the material. there are very few things in
which this happens, which also have the strength to take the pressure.
Most steels, and other things are perfectly fine. An actual leak in a
fitting or whatever, is mostly only affected by the pressure; a leak
small enough to leak hydrogen, while not leaking methane, at the same
pressure, would mean a leak of only a few CCs a year. A leak that is
sorting atoms and molecules, is infinitesimal. The space charge around
individual atome or molecules is much larger than the atoms or
molecules themselves. There are also materials which absorb hydrogen,
and store it in much the same way as a sponge contains water. The big
thing making hydrogen storage trickier in liquid form, is storage
pressure and temperature. To make the storage pressure acceptable, it
has to be in a cryogenic tank, where a controlled "leak" allows it to
act as it's own refrigerant if it is not being used. That's where the
newer storage media are nice.

I think hydrogen is less of an environmental concern, because it
doesn't result in carbon dioxide emissions. More environmentally
friendly . . .

A gas compressor isn't too difficult . . .

[Patrick Keller]

Only suggestion from Greg's frame design is to use a large tube as the main
frame structural element with a pressurized gas container inside it, such
that fittings are also protected inside the tube. Leave the tube open at
both ends so that any flames in a very bad situation would be directed fore
and aft, away from the operator who is located above. Tires could ignite,
but the interval for this to happen would provide the operator with time to
relocate.

Could do this with an existing frame by welding it, or parts of it, to the
large tube, with the engine sitting on top of the large tube. Engines
sitting below fuel tanks are a relic of gravity-fed carbureted systems,
mostly obsolete in this day of fuel injection. Put the engine on top where
it can be seen, and make it a visual jewel in the center of the arrangement.
Adds to the mechanicalness. The center of mass will be higher, but not
intolerably so.

Who wants to build some of these? Could be the way of the future.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: jefferson-county-comm...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:jefferson-county-comm...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of megados megados
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:52 PM
To: jefferson-county-comm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Jef. Co. CSE} Yes!

> the cycle. That might be another step or two down the road. -Greg