[jazz_guitar] Dominant Chord on VII Degree
musicmaker1245
m7b5 chord naturally occurs on the VII degree and takes the locrian scale:
1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7
If you transform that chord into a dominant chord then the chord becomes 7b5 and the scale that is used is:
1-b2-3-4-b5-b6-b7
Is this right? Does the scale have a name?
Perhaps Dave Woods or anyone else could comment whether my thinking is right.
Mark
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Ron Murray
well; the 7b5 might be better served with a whole-tone scale.
On Dec 28, 2009, at 1:20 PM, musicmaker1245 wrote:
> I was thinking about this:
>
> m7b5 chord naturally occurs on the VII degree and takes the locrian
> scale:
>
> 1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7
>
> If you transform that chord into a dominant chord then the chord
> becomes 7b5 and the scale that is used is:
>
> 1-b2-3-4-b5-b6-b7
>
> Is this right? Does the scale have a name?
>
> Perhaps Dave Woods or anyone else could comment whether my thinking
> is right.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Petri
> If you transform that chord into a dominant chord then the chord becomes 7b5 and the scale that is used is:
>
> 1-b2-3-4-b5-b6-b7
>
> Is this right? Does the scale have a name?
Hi Mark,
that scale wouldn't really have a name in our standardized system as scales with two adjacent half steps have been pretty much avoided in a harmonic sense. As a melodic scale, bebop scales have that but it's a way of placing the chord tones on the beats in common meter.
However, you can always adjust a note in the scale from two directions: the 3 in your scale could be a b4 too and then you'd get 1-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 which is the seventh mode of melodic minor (a.k.a. Super Locrian or Altered scale).
I believe that Dave might point out that the adjusted note is a temporary dissonance that will resolve itself when the chord resolves. For example, if that VII7 resolves up a fourth to the IIIm, that note rsolves up a half step to the root of the minor chord. Or in other words, the key resolves back to its original state of no adjusted notes.
Best wishes,
Petri
John Amato
m7b5 chord naturally occurs on the VII degree and takes the locrian scale:
1-b2-b3-4-b5- b6-b7
If you transform that chord into a dominant chord then the chord becomes 7b5 and the scale that is used is:
1-b2-3-4-b5- b6-b7
Is this right? Does the scale have a name?
............
You're talking about The Super Locrian
Play over Alternate dominant 7th chords with a b5 and b9.
The Super Locrian Scale: 1,b2,b3,3,4,b5,b6,b7.
Good to use over V7 b5 b9 and V7 b5._
... Also, don't forget that the half diminished chord also appears as the 2nd degree of the harmonic minor: 1 – b2 – b3 – 4 – b5 – 6 – b7
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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rguitarjj
Or it can be seen as coming from Cmelmin (locrian #2)
So, one is
> 1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7
and the other is the same thing, but with the natural second.
If you raise the third, in the locrian you've got a scale which has both alterations of the fifth, the b9 and b7.
as, say A7#11b13b9 (and you might see it this way, or the #11 might be assumed.
If you go from melodic minor you can remove the b9.
When you're soloing it may be easier to think 7th scale with altered fifths and ninths per the chord symbol.
At least, this seems easier to me. It also, speaking only for myself, makes it easier to remain focused on the issue, which is you're altering fifths and ninths -- and you can work on learning those sounds.
Rick
Dave Woods
a perfect 5th above E min., The Phrygian Chord. Phrygian mode is (E F G
A B C D E). Adding a D# to get a leading Tone Tritone changes Bmin.7b5
into B7b5. With the D# added this is E Phrygian Sharp Seven (E F G A B
C D D# E). Omitting the E Tonal Center but still hearing it in the ear as
the point of resolution, gives you C Melodic Minor starting on F. ( x F G
A B C D D# x) D# can be re spelled as Eb. B7b5 resolves to E minor,
and also E major.
A good point to make here is that the Melodic Minor in conventional music
almost always comes into play after a Key and a Tonality have already been
established. Here, C Melodic Minor is functioning as E minor Phrygian with
a raised 7th. This same situation also gives you F7, (F A C D#)
resolving down a ½ step to E minor. F pulls to E, A pulls to G or G#, C
pulls to B, and D# pulls to the octave E. If you make E minor an E major,
it still works.
For Good Measure, F7 can also resolve up a whole step to G major. G
Mixolydian (G A B C D E F G) with the 6th (E) lowered to Eb gives
you G Mixolydian b6 (G A B C D Eb F G). F7 (F A C Eb) resolves to
G major (G B D). F moves up a whole step to G, C pulls down a ½ step to
B, and Eb pulls down a ½ step to D, the 5th of the G major Chord.
Well, while we’re at it, what about tune like Wine and Roses and others,
where a 7th Chord resolves up a ½ step to a major chord. In traditional
Classical Harmony there’s a device called the “deceptive cadence”. In A
minor Aeolian Key of C, E7 instead of resolving up a 4th, or down a 5th to A
minor, resolved up a ½ step to F major. This device was used a lot. A minor
(A C E) and F major (F A C) share two common tones. In the half of Wine
and Roses on the word “True” the Progression is (Bmin.7 b5/// ) (E7b9///)
resolving to (F maj7, and onward. This device occurs in a lot of tunes,
Whispering, and Another You to name a couple.
I keep stressing on my website that all of these “far out” devices have
their origins within the basic Key Structure. Where else could they have
evolved from?
Dave Woods http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com
<http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com/> .
_____
akmbirch
When talking about harmony it's important to understand that other than the tonic chord all other chords are points of motion. So in the case your talking about the B7 must be pointing to someplace. Chords and chord scales should be analyzed in terms of the surrounding harmony AND the melody of the tune. Analyzing chord in isolation or without including the melody often gets "wrong" results.
In the absence of the tune you are interested in, I will analyze the following progression, and assume a typical melodic line associated with this progression (this analysis may or may not be right for the the tune and melody you are interested in):
| CMaj7 | B7 | Em7 |
Jazz Analysis: IMaj7 VII7 IIIm7
The B7 in this example is called a "Secondary Dominant" because it is dominant chord that points to a secondary key in this case the Key of Em. (In the key of C, expect modulations or temporary tonicizations to closely related keys of D minor, E minor, A minor, F and G.)
In "classical" Roman Numeral Analysis the VII7 chord is described as the V7 of iii of V7/iii.
So what scale does it take?
The Key signature of E minor is one sharp F# plus the leading tone D# needed to create the dominant chord. The F# and D# are the pitches necessary to modulate from the key of C to the Key of E minor. The D# resolves up to the E and the F# resolves up to the G.
Therefore the "first choice" scale would be:
B-C-D#-E-F#-G-A-B
1-b9-3-4-5-b13-b7-1
Some call this "Mixolydianb9b13" it is the 5th mode harmonic minor.
Often the VII7 chord has associated with it's own ii making the "Turnaround to IIIm":
| CMaj7 | F#ø B7 | Em7 |
Jazz Analysis: IMaj7 #IVø VII7 IIIm7
The tones of the IIIm7 chord are part of IMaj9 so it is also common to find:
| CMaj7 | F#ø B7 | CMaj9 |
Jazz Analysis: IMaj7 #IVø VII7 IMaj9
This is called the "Deceptive Cadence" or "Backdoor Cadence"
What I think is important is to get the sounds into your ears. In my playing and teaching I prefer to name things simply and approach things simply. I suggest practicing and singing the basic B7 Arpeggio resolving to Em7 Arpeggio then adding the associated scale tones.
(There is much more than could be said which I have not gone into - the altered scale, the whole tone scale, the #9, parallel modality, tritone sub etc).
--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com
ammo_fuzztone
I like the E Phrygian #7, a bebop scale. Thanks for not limiting it to
seven notes. Also for allowing the existence of G Mixolydian b6. Makes
one wonder why no name was attributed to it since antiquity.
I practice the patterns Jamey Aebersold created in Volume 84, Dominant
Seventh Workout.
He calls it the Diminished Whole Tone Scale and defines it as
HWHWWWW or
1, b9, #9, 3, #4, #5, b7, 1
but I like yours better
1 b2 b3 d4 d5 b6 b7 8 with maybe a Maj7 thrown in as leading tone.
Jamey's exercises are on a C7 chord resolving to an F Maj.
He call this dominant C7+9 by which he means seventh-aug-9 but it's more
properly written C7(#9).
I tend to read his chord as "7 add 9" but it's wrong for this kind of
scale.
They're great exercises!
AMMO
msc...@comcast.net
"I like the E Phrygian #7, a bebop scale. "
Two things about this comment puzzle me... first, t here is no such thing as a sharp 7th. I assume you meant the natural 7th?
That brings me to my next question... are you saying to play the natural 7th in addition to the flat 7th, or in place of it? Again, I assume sine you say 'bebop scale" you mean in addition to it, which would make it an 8-note scale.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Chris Smart
chord tones on the strong beats.
Dave Woods
everything in the Key of C with letter names. Then E Phrygian #7 was E F
G A B C D D# E. As I say, leaving out the E, but still hearing it as
the Tonal Center, and point of resolution leaves you with (x F G A B C
D D# x). Respelling D# as Eb gives you C melodic minor starting on F.
Also, you Can play both the D and the D#. It's not either or. F13 (F A C
D# G D) Contains both. On the resolution, F pulls to E, A pulls to G or
G#, C pulls to B, and D# pulls to E. The D is also the 7th of the Emin.7
chord.
I don't think of it as an 8 note scale. The D# is a temporary Leading Tone
that disappears after the resolution. I'm not categorizing you personally
when I say this, but I wish more people would take the time to read and
study the stuff at the beginning of my site. I think it would clear up a
lot of confusion.
_____
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