[jazz_guitar] Moon River Harmonic Analysis
jem18rc
Please help me understand more about the harmonic function of the Moon River [arrangement (correct term in this context?)] from version in the RB VII SE p.274.
Form is A B correct?
A Section:
bars:
1. Cmaj7 - I7
2. A-7 - vim7
3. F7(#11) - V7 of viim7b5, viim7b5 is a sub for V7,
(the b note in the melody is the #11 of F7)
7. B-7b5 - again, viim7b5 is a sub for V7
8. E7 - V7 of vim7
10. C7/G - v7 of IVmaj7
11. Fmaj7 - IVmaj7
12. Bb7 - ?
14.1 F#m7b5 - (not sure how to say this, F#m7b5 is the viim7b5 of G which is the V7)
14.2 B7 - v7 of iiim7
15.2 A7 - m7b5 of V7
Thanks!
Jeff Moeller
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denisbarsalo
I see the F#m7b5 at bar 14 as just a ii-V-i in Em setting up the iii-VI7-ii-V-I in C that follows.
Or is that too simplistic?
Denis
Brian Kelly
Greetings!
Please help me understand more about the harmonic function of
the Moon River [arrangement (correct term in this context?)] from version in the
RB VII SE p.274.
Form is A B correct?
A
Section:
bars:
1. Cmaj7 - I7
2. A-7 - vim7
3. F7(#11) - V7 of
viim7b5, viim7b5 is a sub for V7,
(the b note in the melody is the #11 of
F7)
7. B-7b5 - again, viim7b5 is a sub for V7
8. E7 - V7 of vim7
10.
C7/G - v7 of IVmaj7
11. Fmaj7 - IVmaj7
12. Bb7 - ?
14.1 F#m7b5 - (not
sure how to say this, F#m7b5 is the viim7b5 of G which is the V7)
14.2 B7 -
v7 of iiim7
15.2 A7 - m7b5 of V7
Thanks!
Jeff
Moeller
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jem18rc
perhaps this level isn't appropriate for this group due to infringing on material by professional instructors?
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> I am not sure what you are looking for in the way of responses.
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dphidt
The main difference is that I will relate the chords to a specific key. There is usually some logic to this in the song. For instance, bars 7 and 8, where you have
| B-7(b5) | E7 |
| ii/A- | V / A |
I would see that as a II-V in A or A minor, instead of:
> 7. B-7b5 - again, viim7b5 is a sub for V7
> 8. E7 - V7 of vim7
The analysis that the B-7b5 is a sub for the G7 is correct. This all works out because the E7 can be thought of as a secondary dominant in the key of C as well.
My standard approach to analysis is:
1. Dominant 7th chords first. In most cases, those are either V of some key or a sub V.
2. Major chords. These usually function as a I or IV chord. Sometimes as a neopolitan chord.
3. Minor chords. These are either a II, III, or VI in major key, or
4. Half diminished (Min7(b5)). Either II in a minor key, or VII in a major key.
5. Anything not covered above (diminished, etc.). Diminished are usually some sort of chromatic passing or can be renamed to be a 7b9 that makes more sense in the progression.
If the Dom. 7th or Maj chords don't make sense in places, there might be some modal interchange going on. This method usually works to find the common keys.
For some modern tunes, these techniques don't really produce any useful results. The end result is to gain some insight into how to play over the tune.
Writing out the guide tones really helps as well. Those capture the essence of the changes w/o having to go through a ton of analysis.
BTW, what is going on with the bars that aren't listed?
Thanks,
-- Mike V.
Chuck Decker
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "jem18rc" <jem18rc@...> wrote:
>
> "comments, concerns, additions, observations, concurances"
Here's an observation,---Mancini was a raving genius! I was raised listening to him, he was a favorite of my mom. Then as a musician, you go through the expansion of getting into progressively "heavier" stuff. Now as I get older, I find myself appreciating subtlety and stealth, and I am enjoying having a reunion with his material. He has an amazing way of making the b5 sound melodically pleasing, and the diversity of his writing is just astounding. (Compare "Moon River" to "Baby Elephant Walk" to "Pink Panther"). If you want to take your analysis one step further, analyze the melody. It is the ultimate in simplicity.
Chuck Decker
jem18rc
>
Here is the first step towards digesting this, your comments and melody additions pending as I work through this within the next few days
Please let me know if you have any trouble accessing this link, or have any suggestions
jem18rc
to quote msg 106402:
>>>
> then do i call it a half bar modulation
No, A7 in F major is a secondary dominant.
Dave Woods
jem18rc
...
> -- Mike V.
Hmmm, maybe I am trying to force a logical form which would help me gain intellectual insight into why the composer made certain choices. That may have a more or less related aspect however ultimately it must come down to choices in sound changes.
It is helpful to see this step by step through analytical process. I was interested mostly in a composition sense however in terms of choosing note groupings the chord origins probably doesn't matter as much as options to solo with.
John Amato
It is helpful to see this step by step through analytical process. I was interested mostly in a composition sense however in terms of choosing note groupings the chord origins probably doesn't matter as much as options to solo with.
Yes ... It's all about "options" when soling.
"Moon River" opens with an instantly recognizable melody that people would know - the lyrics "moon river", featuring the distinctive perfect fifth upward leap from the 5th (C) to the 2nd (G), which is immediately balanced and contrasted by the subsequent graceful step to the tonic (F), before gliding down is the compositional structure that folks know when they hear it ... when one solos over this form, one decides from a whole host of improvisational "options" which way to go ... some options are:
1) to borrow from Mancini's intervalic structure and build "something new from something old"
2) to vary Mancini's structure ... to what degree in, around, or out of his original intervalic and octave range structures ..
3) to ignore Mancini's structures and build new ones based on the harmony ...
4) to re-invent and invert Mancini's structure
5) to re-harmonize Mancini's structure
6) to invert Mancini's melody
... this can go on and on ....
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JVeg...@aol.com
JV
Juan Vega
Hmmm, maybe I am trying to force a logical form which would help me gain intellectual insight into why the composer made certain choices. That may have a more or less related aspect however ultimately it must come down to choices in sound changes.
It is helpful to see this step by step through analytical process. I was interested mostly in a composition sense however in terms of choosing note groupings the chord origins probably doesn't matter as much as options to solo with.
__._,_.___
Mike Perlowin
To get right to the point, the guy can play. I was VERY impressed, not just with his total command of the guitar, but with his sense of melody and taste. Juan, my hat is off to you.
MP
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jem18rc
This is fascinating to me and I am not yet satisfied with the level of my understanding of plausible explanations. It "calls" to me, has the potential of adding to my personal fulfillment, so I go with it.
Not to bog down the group on unresolved issues, I do wonder where I can take this next, and although there may be more contributions yet to come here, any suggestions for further study materials or groups related to deeper (jazz) theory or composition? Maybe spending time on Bach anaylis would be interesting to me, although one does have to pay the price for these distractions away from primary goals unless it helps augment composition or other goals.
Thanks!
Jeff
-- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, JVegaTrio@... wrote:
>
> I've resisted chiming in on this, but just can't help myself. What's the
> point of all this analysis?
...
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John Amato
Isaiah 55:11
http://www.newdurham.org/images/ndbc/sermons.html
http://www.newdurham.org/images/prophecy/prophecy.html
http://www.newdurham.org/images/men-bsf/main-page.html
http://chordmelody.org
From: "near...@juno.com" <near...@juno.com>
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 7:27:12 PM
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Moon River Harmonic Analysis
____________________________________________________________
Mortgage Rates Hit 2.99%
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keithfre
Angelo Blancato
As I said, this is probably worth two cents....
all the best
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Bob
"... Knowing that a certain chord is a "submediant temporary subdominant in the flat 5 key of the relative minor" is fun, but doesn't mean too much in a musical sense..."
-------------
Amen!!!
First time poster and former jazz guitar player (I have a progressive "contracture" in my left hand and can't fret anymore).
When I was playing, that was exactly my stumbling block... always trying to find the "right" scale to play over each chord. Always thinking "technically." Looking for some magical formula that would unlock to secrets of improvisation.
Later, I read an interview with a jazz musician (forget who). When asked if he had studied theory, he replied, "Yes, but not enough to hurt my playing."
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jem18rc
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "keithfre" <keith.freeman@...> wrote:
>
> You might want to look at John Elliott's Insights in Jass at http://www.dropback.co.uk/
>
WOWWEE! The sirens' song has never been so sweet!
a quick glance at this, distracting me away from all my technology challenges today and this looks quite exciting! I will have to dedicate the results of it to those first MP3 uploads into my Lego NXT 2.0 robot once the kids finish it.
Thanks! looking forward to checking this out tonight
Bob Hansmann
> The trouble with improvising in general is that it actually is part
> science and part part art. The percentage of each depends on each
> individual. Some benefit from a thorough study of the science and can
> take that and create at an artistic level with the tools they learned
> when they studied the science of music. Others seem to need less
> science and seem to play artistically well ahead of their studies.
> However, in the end even these players will at some point in their
> playing career benefit from going back and studying up on what they’ve
> missed.
> In the end Charlie Parkers maxim still holds today and really says all
> that anyone could ever want to know on this subject. I don’t remember
> his comment verbatim anymore but Parkers advice was that you learn
> all the science of music you could and then forget all of that stuff
> and just play.
Nice post. Discussions such as this often don't take into account that
everyone is different.
best,
Bobby
John Amato
"You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail.
-Charlie Parker
"Don't play the saxophone. Let it play you."
-Charlie Parker
"Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art..."
-Charlie Parker
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George Hess
"You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice.
And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and
just wail.
-Charlie Parker
"Don't play the saxophone. Let it play you."-Charlie Parker
"Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live
it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to
music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art..."
-Charlie Parker
__._,_.___
jem18rc
> Please help me understand more about the harmonic function of the Moon River [arrangement (correct term in this context?)] from version in the RB VII SE p.274.
>
All forms of comments are appreciated, gives me a real greater sense of understanding about the wisdom of the subject.
What would Pat Metheny say? My guess is that he has mastered the subject and moved through it, enjoys it, teaches it, and goes beyond it. Same as Herb Ellis, says he learned all the theory and then it became second nature.
+++
Run for cover, run and hide
...
despite a warning voice, it comes in the night and repeats it yells in my ear,
don't you know you fool, you never can win, use your mentality wake up to reality and each time I do just the thought of you makes stop just before I begin, cause I got you under my skin
+++
Jon Lori
Bird said:
“First master your instrument. Then forget all of that shit and just play…”
He also said:
“look for the pretty tones…”
And
“You are always just a half step away from a great note…”
And, in jest to the critics…
“Watch out for those chromatics boys!”
I think that Carnegie Hall concert in 1947 where Dizzy was the featured performer
and Bird was just a guest says it all. He felt slighted and had something to prove.
Listen to his solo on “Dizzy Atmosphere”. Nobody could follow that and not
look/sound like a child, not even Dizzy. As Miles said: “Bird makes you feel one foot tall…”
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Kelly
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:29 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Moon River Harmonic Analysis
SNIP…
In the end Charlie Parkers maxim still holds today and really says all that anyone could ever want to know on this subject. I don’t remember his comment verbatim anymore but Parkers advice was that you learn all the science of music you could and then forget all of that stuff and just play.
Brian
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Bob Hansmann
> Same as Herb Ellis, says he learned all the theory and then it became
> second nature.
That really is the goal. Like Dave Woods says, ya gotta hear it. Too
often, a student learns his theory, scales, arps, &c., on a superficial
level. Practice it, sing it, think of it while shaving, driving, &c.,
apply it slowly and carefully while practicing, and keep a notebook for
those ideas you never-ever want to forget. - internalize it and make it
a part of you. With time, practice, and patience, it'll all come
together for you.
best,
Bobby
JVeg...@aol.com
From: jem18rc <jem...@gmail.com>
To: jazz_guitar <jazz_...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2011 5:58 am
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Moon River Harmonic Analysis
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jem18rc
So here's the next mud puddle on the path to JG as I step off the RnR campus.
There is ASCAP, there is "tradional music pieces" that fall outside of copyright and there is the practical world of musician and establishment.
For instance Mel Bay's Easy Classic Guitar Solos
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=93212
Even though some these pieces are from the 18th century as well as early American. It looks like everything is copywriten by Mel Bay meaning that it falls under public performance needs some type of permission coverage. If one were to engage in a very simple and casual performance, lets say a monthly roaming open stage. How to best think about it. No worries unless money moves? My guess is that many parks, nursing homes, coffee shops etc. have even less awareness about this subject than I do.
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rguitarjj
> > 1. Cmaj7 - I7
If you play in Cmaj, all white keys, you'll sound inside.
> > 2. A-7 - vim7
Same thing, All white keys will sound inside.
> > 3. F7(#11) - V7 of viim7b5, viim7b5 is a sub for V7,
The only change is Eb instead of E, to continue sounding inside.
> > (the b note in the melody is the #11 of F7)
> > 7. B-7b5 - again, viim7b5 is a sub for V7
> > 8. E7 - V7 of vim7
All white keys will still work, but you might consider a G# against the E7
> > 10. C7/G - v7 of IVmaj7
Flat the B. G natural. Otherwise, white keys.
> > 11. Fmaj7 - IVmaj7
Same.
> > 12. Bb7 - ?
Not sure, I'd have to hear it again, but probably Key of Eb, for a short period of time.
> > 14.1 F#m7b5 - (not sure how to say this, F#m7b5 is the viim7b5 of G which is the V7)
> > 14.2 B7 - v7 of iiim7
key of Em. Sharp the F. Otherwise, all white keys.
> > 15.2 A7 - m7b5 of V7
Now, I wouldn't argue that this is the best way to think of it. But, it's pretty easy, it focuses only on what changes from chord to chord and it will keep you from hitting bad clams.
If you hear a great jazz player playing this tune, he won't be doing this. He'll take in inside and out and have all kinds of additional sounds. It is likely to sound like the jazz master is playing over a different, but related, set of changes.
Bob Hansmann
> Here's an observation,---Mancini was a raving genius!
Mancini was probably the last great in the long line of greats which
made the era of the American musical. A wonderful composer!
best,
Bobby
John Amato
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