[jazz_guitar] Gibson L4 vs 175
phillygibson
I have just noticed that one can find Gibson L4s for around $3200 in
sunburst or wine red, though natural goes from $3800. This is odd,
since a 175 is just about 300$ less, and it is the same guitar but
plywood , whereas the L5's has a solid top. How could there be such
little price difference? Indeed, how could a wine red or sunburst L4
be the same price as a natural 175? Is there something wrong with
L4s? And why the &^%$ does the color of the guitar make SUCH a big
price difference? What is going on?
I might buy one, so any comments on Gibson L4s would be much
appreciated.
Thanks for your helpful responses to my question about the Gibson
165 from a few days ago. I guess I will stay away from that model.
John
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price difference? <
In some cases sunburst or other color finishes are used to cover inferior wood, or wood that is not necessarily inferior quality but may have some discoloration that precludes use as a natural finished top.
Brad
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Aerocol
col
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MJU
will try to explain this the way it was told to me by a music retailer I
trust (I own a 175 and a L4). When people say they want to get a Gibosn
archtop, most buy the 175's. People see that L4's are a custom shop order
and freak out and buy the factory produced one (the 175). Since the 175 is
more popular and they sell more - they charge more. He went on to say that
back in the 80's the same was true with Les Pauls. You could get one in
Musicians Friend for around $600 - $700. After the hair bands started to
use the LP you see what happened to the price. Try getting one today used
for that amount.
The color issue is simple - the finish usually covers up the slight
imperfections in the wood. So if you want a natural finish they are going
to have to build it using the more desirable looking wood.
As I said, I own both. I love them both like my kids. They each have their
own identity but they feel almost the same when played. If the price
difference doesnt bother you I would get the L4. Either way - you are
making a good investment.
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john dean
especially in an older instrument. The L4's must have taken a lot
longer to make and put together and you would think better craftsment
would have been assigned to them?
I've heard so many conflicting things about carved tops vs laminated
spruce tops like my 175 has. Some people say, oh, carved tops produce
a far superior tone, while others say just the opposite, that a well
done lamination allows the maker to produce a thinner more accurate
top in general, which produces a more desireable tone. I'm sure I have
no idea. But I do know that the age of a guitar has a whole lot to do
with its sound. How much the age of the top figures into that is also
a mystery to me.
John
Dick
> spruce tops like my 175 has. Some people say, oh, carved tops produce
> a far superior tone,
No, they don't. That's a popular myth with lots of snob appeal.
Especially many inexperienced players automatically assume that carved
is superior to laminate. I'd say the opposite is true. A good ES 175
beats any L4 to my ears. I have posted on this earlier and explained
that virtually all classic jazz guitar sounds were produced on
laminate guitars. The archetypal jazz guitar sound IS very much a
laminate ES 175 sound to most ears anyway ...
I am with Roger Sadowsy on this one who states that laminutes produce
a more desirable electric sound.
I used to have two carved top guitars but I sold them. These days it's
all laminate Gibson.
But it's largely taste. Not fact.
#####
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Brian Kelly
(virtually all classic jazz guitar sounds are produced on laminate guitars,
since without question the most classic jazz guitar sound of all time is the
Gibson L5. Both types of guitars have their good points and bad points but
picking one over the other is a matter of personal taste as far as I am
concerned.
Many things about archtops are misunderstood. My favorite is that now days
most luthiers are selling carved top guitars by stressing the acoustic
characteristics while to me it is obvious from listening to most L5's
without an amp that the acoustic characteristics of the guitar have little
to do with the final result since most L5's sound like &*(() without an amp.
Just look at an L5 closely and you will see that it is built much too heavy
for it's acoustic properties to be a major part of the design. They are
probably built like that to keep the tops from cracking so much since carved
tops are much more prone to cracking tht a laminate top is.
My other favorite misunderstanding is that many people believe that the
pickup is somehow amplifying the acoustic properties of the guitar. For
those who believe this I have really bad news for you. A pickup, to produce
it sound is picking up the magnetic vibrations of the strings and not the
sound of the guitar top. It is a misconception that a pickup is working
like a microphone would. It is however true that the top effects the manner
in which the string moves and the pickup senses that and that, along with
the inherent design characteristic of the pickup, becomes part of the sound
that is reproduced by the pickup but that is as far as it goes. If you
still think that a pickup is working like a microphone would and amplifying
your guitar sound try singing into a pickup sometime. Actually, and before
someone responds by saying that a pickup will reproduce the sound of a human
voice if it is up loud enough, let me say that I know that but even at the
incredible volumes it take to make a pickup do this the result is still very
weak and tonally poor.
My brother who is an engineer and designed many musical instruments for
Gretsch guitars and drums says that potentially a laminate top is the best
choice since it can be engineered from the very beginning to be suitable for
a guitar top but, he says, the way the market is no one wants to put the
kind of money it would take to do the research and development it would take
to build advanced design laminate tops since the public mostly regards
laminate tops as a low end materials. My brother says what they really need
to do is look into the glues used for laminate tops.
Anyhow, I wish someone would do it since I like the laminate tops and I love
that they are less prone to feedback and cracking but at this point I still
prefer the carved tops on Gibson's.
Best
Brian
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Dick
time is the
> Gibson L5. Both types of guitars have their good points and bad
points but
> picking one over the other is a matter of personal taste as far as
I am
> concerned.
Without question the most classic jazz guitar sound is the L5???????
That's simply not more than an opinion that you vent here. Not fact.
Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates. So
statistically speaking you simply must be wrong. Most classic jazz
players play(ed) laminates. The force of numbers.
These guys defined the sound of jazz guitar in the audience's ear
much more than the few that played L5s like Wes and Kenny, simply by
sheer exposure. The majority of the big names have always preferred
laminates.
If you take Charlie Christian as the single most classic ELECTRIC
jazz guitar player (with good reason) and the definer of the
category you are wrong again.
By the way, Wes sounded pretty much the same on a 175 as an L5. His
first trio recording proves that.
I like the L5 a lot but it's certainly NOT the most classic jazz
guitar sound.
Dick
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Koek Wei Chew
pictured with a 175 on Incredible Jazz Guitar, but I don't think he
recorded with it.
Those people played with 175 because they are cheap, and being a
jazzman, they aren't the richest musician.
I read from a Carole Kaye interview that in those days 175 wasn't
highly regarded, the bridge was flimsy for instance, and people use
it as its durable and cheap.
For me 175 wasn't the most classic guitar sound either? What defines
classic? A selmer?
I just prefer Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery's tone over Joe Pass,
Charlie Christian and early Jim Hall's.
Laminates sounded muddy and losses note to note definition when you
turn down the tone or treble.
Solid wood always had that kind of harmonic presense in their sound.
There's no superiority, just preference. Arguing over this is like
arguing over religion.
Regards
Koek Wei Chew
called good tone.
John Scofied was out of question as he's playing a semi-hollow.
George Benson played a solid wood after he gets more income. Pat
Martino uses 175 as his L5 was stolen when he toured with organist.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <d.onstenk@...> wrote:
> That's simply not more than an opinion that you vent here. Not
fact.
> Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
> Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
> Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates. So
> statistically speaking you simply must be wrong. Most classic jazz
> players play(ed) laminates. The force of numbers.
>
> These guys defined the sound of jazz guitar in the audience's ear
> much more than the few that played L5s like Wes and Kenny, simply
by
> sheer exposure. The majority of the big names have always
preferred
> laminates.
>
> If you take Charlie Christian as the single most classic ELECTRIC
> jazz guitar player (with good reason) and the definer of the
> category you are wrong again.
>
> By the way, Wes sounded pretty much the same on a 175 as an L5.
His
> first trio recording proves that.
>
> I like the L5 a lot but it's certainly NOT the most classic jazz
> guitar sound.
>
> Dick
>
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Fernando
>
>
> My other favorite misunderstanding is that many people believe that the
> pickup is somehow amplifying the acoustic properties of the guitar.
>
I agree that pickups are microphonic, not microphones.
I would also add to everything else that as long as the pickup remains
mechanically coupled to the guitar and thus vibrating to it, this will
result in minute displacements thst will interact to some extent with
the harmonic motion of the strings.
Later
Fernando
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john dean
difficult to do since in each performance he uses about 4 completely
different sounding axes from nylon string acoustic to the custom solid
body synth rigged instrument) it must be the Super 400 that he records
with. Wouldn't that be a carved top? I don't think it matters one bit.
He always has a good tone with them all including the 175 and most of
that comes from the hands and his brain.
The two guys that I have always felt had the finest pure acoustic
sounding tone in concert are Russell Malone and Jim Hall. Malone with
a carved top and Hall laminated?
Now as to the concept of pickups that is very interesting. I imagine
if you really want the warmest most woody tone you would use
transducers and play through a pa. Is that what Hall does? Feedback
must be a nightmare though.
john
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Dick
the 1970s. Pat Martino has used his signature laminate model for many
years now too. I don't see how you could contest that.
But maybe it's not something to be argued. Mid 1950s Tal Farlow to me
is pretty much bebop tone heaven. Warm, punchy and woody and without
the trebly edge that so many carved top guitars bring in. Best ever
guitar sound to my ears is early Joe Pass on albums such as "Joy
Spring" and "For Django." And some of Jimmy Raney's albums I find high
up there too.
In general, a classic bebop tone I closely associate with laminate
Gibson.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...> wrote:
>
> Herb Ellis, Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel and Pat Metheny wasn't what I
> called good tone.
> John Scofied was out of question as he's playing a semi-hollow.
> George Benson played a solid wood after he gets more income. Pat
> Martino uses 175 as his L5 was stolen when he toured with organist.
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Koek Wei Chew
I've heard that it was built by Gary Morturo. I also seen footage of
him playing an L-5.
Pat Martino is using a semi-hollow, which is out of question.
I'm not sure of which Tal Farlow album you are referring to, but I
don't like his tone that much.
I agree that For Django's tone is great, but Joe Pass's tone isn't
consistent from album to album, I don't like some of his tone.
Regards
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <d.onstenk@...> wrote:
>
> Benson has played and recorded with his own signature laminate
since
> the 1970s. Pat Martino has used his signature laminate model for
many
> years now too. I don't see how you could contest that.
>
> But maybe it's not something to be argued. Mid 1950s Tal Farlow to
me
> is pretty much bebop tone heaven. Warm, punchy and woody and
without
> the trebly edge that so many carved top guitars bring in. Best
ever
> guitar sound to my ears is early Joe Pass on albums such as "Joy
> Spring" and "For Django." And some of Jimmy Raney's albums I find
high
> up there too.
>
> In general, a classic bebop tone I closely associate with laminate
> Gibson.
>
> #####
>
>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@>
Dick
mean "irrelevant" by the way). We are discussing laminate versus
carved top. But ok, if you insist.
I think Benson is playing normal Ibanez GBs most of the time,
especially live.
"The Swinging guitar of Tal Farlow" (mid 1950s) for instance
features a GREAT classic bebop sound on an ES 350.
Not sure anymore what your point is. Mine is that probably the vast
majority of classic electric jazz guitar albums from 1950 until 1970
in my private CD collection features players with laminate guitars,
with Wes and Johnny Smith being an exception rather than the rule.
So I don't see how you could say that THE classic jazz guitar sound
is what comes out of an L5 only. Just because Wes played one? I
could counter argue that it's the sound from an ES 175 rather
because more players used it on classic jazz guitar albums. And that
was NOT because it was a cheaper guitar as you seem to argue. Jim
Hall is a totally convinced laminate player. As Roger Sadowsky, he
claims the sound of a laminate top is even "superior" to one from a
carved top ... But I would not go that far myself. I think it's
not "better", just "different." And in my personal case, what I like
better indeed. The guitar sounds I happen to like best on various
classic jazz guitar recordings ALL come from laminates.
But if you say it's all taste, be my guest!
#####
> Benson's Ibanez was not the same as what they have on the market,
> I've heard that it was built by Gary Morturo. I also seen footage
of
> him playing an L-5.
> Pat Martino is using a semi-hollow, which is out of question.
> I'm not sure of which Tal Farlow album you are referring to, but I
> don't like his tone that much.
> I agree that For Django's tone is great, but Jo0e Pass's tone
isn't
> consistent from album to album, I don't like some of his tone.
>
> Regards
>
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Koek Wei Chew
hollowbody. And the wood factor is negligable.
I mentioned in my post that its not better, it was just different,
although I do prefer solid wood.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <d.onstenk@...> wrote:
>
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Koek Wei Chew
big fan of Joe Pass and he was my biggest influence, but I never
happened to like his tone. I like Jim Hall's tone on his D'
Aquisto "All across the city" tone, but not his 175.
My favourite tone is Johnny Smith, Emily Remler, Kurt Rosenwinkel,
Howard Alden, Jesse Van Ruller, those tone which is what I after. I
don't prefer dark tone; I like tone full of presense and clarity.
Regards
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Dick
at all. But not after a muddy tone either. Like I said, early Joe Pass
and Jimmy Raney style. Dark, woody and with punch but without the
trebly edge.
#####
Jesse Van Ruller, those tone which is what I after. I
> don't prefer dark tone; I like tone full of presense and clarity.
>
> Regards
>
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Brian Kelly
engineer, believes that that back and neck have much moiré to do with the
resultant sound of a guitar than most people would believe. I have
experimented with this by dampening the back of my guitar to different
degrees and in different places and I think there is a lot of merit to this
idea. Also, if you think about it your hand is the first thing tht could
dampen the sound of your guitar if it is not sturdy enough (if that is the
correct term).
Anyhow, it is interesting.
Best
Brian
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MJU
it must be the Super 400 that he records with.
I didn't know Pat used a Super 400 - I always read that he used the old 175
and his Ibanez models.
I imagine if you really want the warmest most woody tone you would use
transducers and play through a pa. Is that what Hall does? Feedback
must be a nightmare though.
Jim is using Polytones.
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Brian Kelly
guitar players you name here who may not be playing actual L5's are still
trying to get that same sound from a different guitar. Most notable of
these would be Pat Martino and George Benson, this is especially true in the
earlier part of their careers. I don't know what Grant Green plays but he
sure gets a sound a lot like Kenny Burrell's.
Scofffield and Metheny are not traditional jazz guitarists so adding them,
to this list is a stretch.
Brian
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Rick Runyan (SupplyWorks)
that Howard Alden and Jimmy Bruno have, but I also like the tone Dick's
talking about (and demonstrates so ably in his videos). Depends on what
I'm playing.
- Rick
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MJU
consider a modern tone where he tastefully uses effects to create a unique
tone (coupled with his voice during solos). Obviously influenced by
Metheny. He plays through semi hollow 335 type guitars. Emily Remler was
also known to play and record with 335 type guitars most of her career.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Koek Wei Chew" <wck...@yahoo.com>
To: <jazz_...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 11:25 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
Also, my preference in tone seems to be different than yours, I am a
big fan of Joe Pass and he was my biggest influence, but I never
happened to like his tone. I like Jim Hall's tone on his D'
Aquisto "All across the city" tone, but not his 175.
My favourite tone is Johnny Smith, Emily Remler, Kurt Rosenwinkel,
Howard Alden, Jesse Van Ruller, those tone which is what I after. I
don't prefer dark tone; I like tone full of presense and clarity.
Regards
Brian Kelly
Burrell and Johnny Smith arrived on the scene in the 60's the L5 has been
the "classic" archtop tone. If you don't believe it than how do you explain
why most of today's custom archtop builders are building L5's style guitars
rather than 175's.
Brian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dick
sound like they are playing L5s actually but then on different
guitars???? Lol ... now that's a stretch.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> I have already replied to this once but just let me add that many
of the
> guitar players you name here who may not be playing actual L5's
are still
> trying to get that same sound from a different guitar. Most
notable of
> these would be Pat Martino and George Benson, this is especially
true in the
> earlier part of their careers. I don't know what Grant Green
plays but he
> sure gets a sound a lot like Kenny Burrell's.
>
> Scofffield and Metheny are not traditional jazz guitarists so
adding them,
> to this list is a stretch.
>
>
> Brian
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Dick
interested in building acoustic guitars with a pick-up rather than
electric guitars. The carved wood fits the traditional craftmanship
image better. In their art they often emphasize the acoustic
qualities but these are not that relevant for me. Still, a renowned
luthier like Sadowsky even states explicitly that a good laminate
sounds better amplified ... hence his new Jim Hall model.
Many top players still prefer laminates by the way.
But I have made my points enough and rest my case. Different people,
different strokes.
But if you prefer your L5, power to you!
#####
thegoodwizard
I love playing my Heritage acoustically at home sitting on my bed. It
certainly has the best unamplified sound. It sounds great plugged in
too, however is a bright guitar. That's Ok, but I don't find the sound
conducive to all playing situations. I have one good laminate box that
sounds good acoustically and plugged in. The rest are dead
acoustically but sound from OK to poor amplified.
A good solid top guitar, like a Johnny Smith Heritage I played
recently are friggin' amazing. This Johnny Smith (carved top, tap
tunned, 16" special order) was probably the best sounding guitar I
ever played. (or close to...) Personally I like the guitar to have a
superb acoustic tone AND a superb amplified tone.
True, some solid tops are tinny. (both plugged and unplugged)
Especially ones with cut-in PUs. Some laminates are dull and muddy
(both plugged and unplugged)
So... you just have to find either the laminate or solid top that has
the qualities you are looking for to give you an acceptable, enjoyable
sound. I have several guitars that play really nice, but I rarely pick
them up anymore. I rationalize keeping them around, but if the sound
either plugged or unplugged doesn't 'do it for me', I just never seem
to play them.
;0)
Doc Dosco
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <d.onstenk@...> wrote:
>
guit...@comcast.net
guitar players you name here who may not be playing actual L5's are still
trying to get that same sound from a different guitar. Most notable of
these would be Pat Martino and George Benson, this is especially true in the
earlier part of their careers<
Brad
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will_halligan
> > My other favorite misunderstanding is that many people believe
that the
> > pickup is somehow amplifying the acoustic properties of the
guitar.
Well, in several senses it actually does.
1. If the pup is rock solidly made and has no moving parts whatsoever
it will pick up just the string vibrations. However these will
contain many overtones depending on the wood of the guitar. Matt
Murphy`s SG is a good example - it has a metal scratchplate and a
very "toppy" sound. Also, many players would argue that the current
Strat design is not as good because of the huge cavity gouged out of
the body to accomodate different pup designs. In both cases the pups
are not really microphonic but they pick up differing sounds created
by the guitar body. Also, the legendary sustain and tone from a Les
Paul has a lot to do with the mahogany body with its maple top.
2. If the pup is (say,) a p90 type and is quite loose inside then the
coil will vibrate along with the guitar top, this will add to the
acoustic/woody wound of the guitar. Original Burns (1960s,) trisonic
pups were famous for this as they has a small coil that was simply
placed around the magnets. Actually proper Trisonics had two coils to
facilitate the "Split sound" that Burns made famous. Brian May uses
original Trisonics on his guitar because he likes that tone.
Will
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Frawg
This thread is really a stretch... a bad case of G.A.S. needing to
justify laying down 5 to 10K or more for a mirage/status symbol...
please give the opinionated BS a rest... we have only learned that some
of us are L5 biggots.
Frawg
Dick wrote:
>So Pat Martino, George Benson and Grant Green are all trying to
>sound like they are playing L5s actually but then on different
>guitars???? Lol ... now that's a stretch.
>
>
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top) and with L5's. The Breezin album is done with the JS for example.
Anyway my favorite jazz tone really is the sound of a good PAF pickup
in an archtop, laminated or not...The fantastic tone of "For Django" by
Joe Pass (done on a 175) is my personal fav, along with Wes tone on
"the incredible guitar..." (done on a L5).
How benson makes those floating pickups sound so fat (contrary to most
other players with floaters) is quite revealing about the importance of
technique when you talk about jazz tone...
Dick is another good example...He sounds fantastic on a bunch of
different guitars.
jmg...@gmail.com
Brian Kelly
It is clear that each of the guitarists you named are heavily influenced by
Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell two of the most recognizable L5 players
there ever were. I use to see Grant play often but I don't remember what he
used for an ax but whatever it was it sure sounded like Kenny's guitar tone
to me. We used to refer to him as a sort of cheap copy of Kenny Burrell for
just that reason.
Pat Martino was clearly heavily influenced by Wes and the sound he gets is a
sort of exaggerated L5 tone. No one was playing with that much bottom end
and a rolled off top end like Wes and Kenny did and they both accomplished
it using L5's. Any attempt to get that sound using a 175 will be a failure.
Those guitars simply will not produce the sound of an L5. At least no one
that I can think of has ever done it.
Back to my original question. If the L5 is not the ultimate classic jazz
guitar why in the world are an overwhelming number of archtop builders
making their own versions of the L5 and nothing in their lines like an 175.
I before someone response with the fact that Kenny has often played Super
400 let me say I realize that but in truth that is just a bigger L5.
Best
Brian
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Brad Rabuchin
by the majority of the top jazz players over the years. I believe that
2 of the main reasons that most of the custom luthiers build solid top
guitars are: 1) they can charge a good deal more per guitar and 2) they
are often more craftsmen then guitar players and prefer to work with
solid pieces of wood for estetic reasons.
Also someone mentioned Emily Remler. She actually played a Gibson 330.
It looks like a 335 but it has no center block so it's really a thin
laminated hollow body. Grant Green played a 330 as well for allot of his
career.
So the 60s might look something like this
_Solid
top/L5_ _Laminate_
Wes Montgomery
Joe Pass
Kenny Burrel
Grant Green
Jimmy Smith
Jim Hall
George Benson(later switched) Herb Ellis
Barney Kessel
Jimmy Raney, Howard Roberts
Brian Kelly wrote:
>In the 50's the laminate top may have been popular but since Wes, Kenny
>Burrell and Johnny Smith arrived on the scene in the 60's the L5 has been
>the "classic" archtop tone. If you don't believe it than how do you explain
>why most of today's custom archtop builders are building L5's style guitars
>rather than 175's.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dick
Farlow, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall, Pat Martino, Jimmy Raney,
Grant Green, Emily Remler, Howard Roberts, Renee Thomas, George
Benson etc. it is impossible to defend any claim that THE classic
jazz guitar sound is the L5. It's simply not true from a statistical
point of view. Rather the opposite is true, with the laminate being
the better known and so more archetypal jazz guitar sound in the
perception of most.
So why do luthiers build carved tops? IMHO because in their craft
they are more interested in building primarily upscale acoustic
instruments. Still, as a player I am not that interested in the
acoustic sound of a jazz archtop (though my ES 175 and Tal Farlow
sound nice enough unamplified). I am an electric guitarist and I am
interested in the electric sound primarily.
Roger Sadowsky is one of the few (?) luthiers that builds laminate
archtops. He claims explicitly that laminates sound superior when
amplified. But I think it's more a matter of taste.
But I have made my points and rest my case now.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Brad Rabuchin <bradrabuchin@...>
wrote:
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Dick
such as Charlie Christian, Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Barney
Kessel, Jimmy Raney all PRECEEDED Wes (so with NO possible influence
on them by Wes) and in the 1950s Kenny Burrell was NOT playing a
Super 400 yet. He was playing ES 150, ES 175, ES 300 etc.
So basically that proves you are wrong. None of the guitarists I
mentioned above was influenced by Wes or Kenny sound wise in the
1950s.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
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phillygibson
Not to complicate this already complicated (but fascinating) thread,
but Kenny Burrell wasn't an L5 player at all!!! His name is tied
more than any jazz guitarist's to the Gibson Super 400, which is an
altogether different beast (it is bigger than an L5, for starters).
Now *that* is a guitar, but wildly expensive. He also played a
D'Aquisto w/ a floating PU. But the Super 400 more or less defines
his sound, and is the guitar he is (almost) always pictured with.
Hertage now makes a Super Kenny 400 model, or something like that.
But I haven't heard much about it.
So now I guess we will have to argue about whether Gibson 175s, L4s,
L5s, or Super 400s define the sound of traditional jazz guitar. My
head is spinning. Maybe at this point we might as well say that
Gibson guitars (more or less) defines it, and forget about the all
stuff regarding models and laminate/carved tops.
Wonderful discussion! It's why I like this group.
Best,
John
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Dick
(album covers etc.) he is playing an ES 175. Which makes my
arguments for laminate Gibson even stronger. Practically all the big
guys were playing them.
That Gibson guitars define the genre is not even debatable IMHO.
I think it's quite simple. Make a list of the big guys - the classic
players - or maybe even the number of jazz guitar recordings
recorded until 1965 or so and see what type of guitar dominates the
genre in the form of sheer numbers. The brand seems obvious in the
first place. That'll be Gibson.
Heck, but I was resting my case, wasn't I?
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "phillygibson" <jgibson@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear All,
> Not to complicate this already complicated (but fascinating)
thread,
> but Kenny Burrell wasn't an L5 player at all!!! His name is tied
> more than any jazz guitarist's to the Gibson Super 400, which is
an
> altogether different beast (it is bigger than an L5, for
starters).
> Now *that* is a guitar, but wildly expensive. He also played a
> D'Aquisto w/ a floating PU. But the Super 400 more or less defines
> his sound, and is the guitar he is (almost) always pictured with.
> Hertage now makes a Super Kenny 400 model, or something like that.
> But I haven't heard much about it.
>
> So now I guess we will have to argue about whether Gibson 175s,
L4s,
> L5s, or Super 400s define the sound of traditional jazz guitar. My
> head is spinning. Maybe at this point we might as well say that
> Gibson guitars (more or less) defines it, and forget about the all
> stuff regarding models and laminate/carved tops.
>
> Wonderful discussion! It's why I like this group.
>
> Best,
> John
>
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Brian Kelly
L5 (carved top and all) and not a different guitar. Kenny has certainly
played a lot of L5's before switching to the Super 400. Although it must be
said that Kenny can get a banjo to sound like that.
You point that Gibson Guitars petty much defines it is right on target as
far as I am concerned, There have been others but none of them collectively
would have had the influence that Gibson has.
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of phillygibson
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:47 AM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
Dear All,
Not to complicate this already complicated (but fascinating) thread,
but Kenny Burrell wasn't an L5 player at all!!! His name is tied
more than any jazz guitarist's to the Gibson Super 400, which is an
altogether different beast (it is bigger than an L5, for starters).
Now *that* is a guitar, but wildly expensive. He also played a
D'Aquisto w/ a floating PU. But the Super 400 more or less defines
his sound, and is the guitar he is (almost) always pictured with.
Hertage now makes a Super Kenny 400 model, or something like that.
But I haven't heard much about it.
So now I guess we will have to argue about whether Gibson 175s, L4s,
L5s, or Super 400s define the sound of traditional jazz guitar. My
head is spinning. Maybe at this point we might as well say that
Gibson guitars (more or less) defines it, and forget about the all
stuff regarding models and laminate/carved tops.
Wonderful discussion! It's why I like this group.
Best,
John
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Brian Kelly
have said form the beginning is that since Wes Montgomery who basically
re-defined the sound of jazz guitar the L5 has been the dominate sound of
jazz guitar. It would have to be since he radically increased the
popularity of the L5. No other guitarists sound has been imitated as much
as Wes's was. All of the guitarists you named were, just as you say, before
Wes's time and none of them were particularly known for their tone other
than Charlie Christian who was is the main influence on that entire group.
Since the 60's Wes Montgomery's sound and technique has been the most
emulated guitar sound imaginable.
As far as the custom luthiers go the greatest luthiers of all time all built
carved tops. I am sure if they thought they were worthwhile they would be
building less expensive laminate tops so they could sell more guitars but
they aren't. Early on I said that I personally thought that carved top were
over-rated and laminate tops were misunderstood so it is impossible to make
the claim that my noticing that the carved top guitar sound is the dominate
archtop sound somehow only suits my personal taste in instruments. Truth be
told I could care less what a guitar is made of. I don't even consider that
when purchasing one. If I like the guitar I use it and if I don't I won't.
I don't look up the specs. Next to the L5's I have owned my favorite guitar
is my $600.00 Epiphone Joe Pass model. I t sounds so good it embarrasses
instruments costing 4 to 5 time more and many people around town have
assumed that is has been heavily modified but it is mostly bone stock
although I have recently been experimenting with different pickups.
Hopefully that will serve to fully explain my observation of what the
predominant sound of modern archtop guitar about. If you choose to believe
that despite the obvious it is somehow all about the 175 I just don't know
what to say to you.
Best
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:07 AM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
I have answered this in the other reply I think. Classic players
such as Charlie Christian, Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Barney
Kessel, Jimmy Raney all PRECEEDED Wes (so with NO possible influence
on them by Wes) and in the 1950s Kenny Burrell was NOT playing a
Super 400 yet. He was playing ES 150, ES 175, ES 300 etc.
So basically that proves you are wrong. None of the guitarists I
mentioned above was influenced by Wes or Kenny sound wise in the
1950s.
#####
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Aerocol
Cheers
Col
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Dick
You are talking post 1960 and I am talking pre 1960. I have been
talking classic jazz guitar since I started my argument. We seem to
have been discussing different things then.
Wes redefined the sound of the jazz guitar? What makes you say that?
So after Wes the greats suddenly all played L5s or wanted his sound?
We know that is not true. You suggest the carved top has been the
dominant sound in the post Wes era until today? That would mean most
contemporary players play L5s and/or carved tops? Ergo ... carved
guitars dominate the current jazz guitar landscape? Is that what you
are saying?
By the way, don't start that "I can't believe how ..." shit on me.
That's unsound argumentation. You may not have been very clear
yourself and I won't carry on a discussion in that atmosphere.
I have been talking classic jazz guitar all along, not post Wes.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
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Brian Kelly
Once again, I am not talking about the 50's but rather from the 1960 to
current times. After Wes Montgomery hit the scene the L5 has been defining
the sound of mainstream jazz guitar.
When I was young the 175 was called a workhorse jazz guitar since it had a
decent sound and was reasonably inexpensive. While the L5 along with the
D'Angelico's, D'Aquistos or the Johnny Smith guitars (all carved top) were
considered real top of the line musical instruments.
It is still that way today and even though there may be a small minority of
people who think otherwise that doesn't change the facts.
Best
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 10:45 AM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
True. But on most pics I have seen from Kenny Burrell in the 1950s
(album covers etc.) he is playing an ES 175. Which makes my
arguments for laminate Gibson even stronger. Practically all the big
guys were playing them.
That Gibson guitars define the genre is not even debatable IMHO.
I think it's quite simple. Make a list of the big guys - the classic
players - or maybe even the number of jazz guitar recordings
recorded until 1965 or so and see what type of guitar dominates the
genre in the form of sheer numbers. The brand seems obvious in the
first place. That'll be Gibson.
Heck, but I was resting my case, wasn't I?
#####
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john dean
fact that he was playing a L5. Gez. It was his thumb and those big
very special hands! That is the sound, and nobody has captured it,
including Benson or anyone else.
John
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <d.onstenk@...> wrote:
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JVeg...@aol.com
What's the point of all this? I don't think any particular guitar 'defines'
the jazz sound, as much as players do. Carved tops vs. laminated tops, etc
make for a lot of passionate discussion, but not much more. Think about it,
the 'sound' of jazz has evolved as the technology and even the music have
evolved. Metheny created a 'jazz' sound, and it's much different from Wes', for
example. Same thing for Sco, whose sound is all his own, and yet he's very
much a 'jazz' guitarist. And then there's someone like Holdsworth...
The music is what's important, and that's defined by things like note
choices, phrasing, technique, 'soul', and yes, at the end of the chain, the
instrument, but I think of all of those things, the instrument is least important.
I vote we declare that the L4 & the 175 are both fine instruments, and leave
it at that. I also suggest there are a host of other instruments that can
achieve a great jazz guitar sound, and given that, the instrument is a factor,
albeit not much of one. I think this kind of repartee takes place because
the instrument is a physical, tangible thing, and easier to talk about than
something like phrasing, eg, which requires in-depth analysis in order to
understand it.
Anyway, you guys are both good players, and this discussion hasn't yielded
anything particularly valuable thus far, so I dunno, you may wish to consider
your reasons for prolonging it.
Cheers,
JV
Juan Vega
thegoodwizard
> told I could care less what a guitar is made of. I don't even
consider that
> when purchasing one
I've got a fine paper mache jazz guitar you might be interested in... haha
(just kidding)
;0)
Doc
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Dick
time I actually engaged in a prolonged discussion here! After all
these years ... No kidding .... So gimme some slack.
I'll go play my Gibson Tal Farlow some more. Yummie ...
#####
Flamur Ahmeti
Just because critics praise Wes the Master, the sound of his guitar playing is not necessarily dominating the world of jazz guitar. I didn’t like L5 at all; it was ergonomically inappropriate guitar for me, as I derived my jazz playing from classical guitar. Such a strange guitar for playing! As for the sound, it sounds good, but can’t say the best jazz sound. Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrel, Charlie Christian, Tal Farlow etc. they all had different sounds.
When I play jazz guitar (ES 175), I do different setups based on the tune, or whatever my mood is. Sometimes is pure clean sound, sometimes it is sweet dark sound etc. It all depends!
Epiphone Joe Pass guitar is absolutely one of the most inferior guitars I have ever owned and seen in the market. Now it stays with my brother, he plays kind of Roling Stones stuff.
On my previous postings, three months ago, I stated that I am not that rich to buy cheap stuff. Such a disgrace that they had to use Joe Pass name on it.
L5 vs Es 175 vs L4
Hmmmmm, definitely they are different guitars. I can’t say which one is better in sound. My preference is Es 175 or L4, because of ergonomic properties. It is smaller, just like Spanish ones. Just perfect! These guitars are not accomplished instruments without the amplifier.
Feedback Problems
Jazz music is not rock ‘n roll music and is not to be played too loud. If you do so, you will never reach the sensitiveness to express pianissimo, piano, forte and fortissimo. Please don’t play loud.
L5, Super 400, Byrdland, Benedetto etc are strange large guitars. I don’t understand how could they build such big guitars and why. Still mystery to me!!?? Were they thinking that these guitars can beat piano, saxophone acoustically? They could never be more wrong.
Playing Acoustically
All of them, no matter 175 or L5, are below inferior level. Sorry folks to disappoint you!
For acoustical sound, Spanish guitar is the answer. It is perfect for Jazz!!!! There are makers who believe that every aspect of the guitar has already been accomplished on the XIX century by luthier, Antonio de Torres, and that no real improvements are likely.
Folks, I really enjoyed reading your debates L5 vs ES 175/L4. I thought my opinion could contribute too!
Cheers,
Flamur
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Brian Kelly
I don't mean to start a big argument with you but if you go back and read my
earlier posts it is as plain as it can get that I meant the current
mainstream jazz guitarists who followed Ws and Kenny Burrell most of whom
are to this day playing carved top guitars built in the style of the L5.
I am glad you have explained tht you meant guitarists and guitars before
1960 since I could not understand otherwise why you would disagree. I have
heard you play and I have a great deal of admiration for you and your talent
but believe me when I tell you that I didn't just ride into town on a
pumpkin when it comes to music in general and the guitar in particular.
I might also add that I am not easily intimidated but I am not unreasonable
either and after making the same point several times I can't help but find
it difficult to believe that the most obvious point in my argument has not
only been missed but it has been turned around to look like I said something
completely different.
Other that "it's all good", as they say.
Best
Brian
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Brian Kelly
In his own words Wes has stated that he was heavily influenced by Kenny
Burrell and that is the sound he was going after. Playing his with his
thumb was only part of it. He installed the tune-o-matic bridge on his
guitar so that even while playing with his thumb he could get the treble
detail that Kenny had.
You are also forgetting that many of the people who are influenced by Wes
use a pick (George Benson for example) and to get the Wes sound they have
used everything he used to get it an the L5 is a large part of that sound.
Wes was a poor working man and I am sure that it he felt he could get the
sound he wanted from a 175 he would have had one and kept the change. Not
even Wes could make a 175 get the sound like an L5.
Best
BRian
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Dick
planned my next discussion here not anytime sooner than 2009 ...
#####
Brian Kelly
Love
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of thegoodwizard
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:16 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
Truth be
> told I could care less what a guitar is made of. I don't even
consider that
> when purchasing one
I've got a fine paper mache jazz guitar you might be interested in... haha
(just kidding)
;0)
Doc
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Brian Kelly
I think we are good. There is no real point to this other than historical
accuracy. While Wes is probably not my absolute favorite guitarist and the
L5 is not truly my favorite guitar (it's too big for me and too expensive so
I don't play them anymore) I am motivated to keep both Wes's contribution
and the contribution of the L5 guitar in modern jazz guitar playing in
correct proportion to their merit which has been huge.
I think there are clearly two camps out there. The guys who play carved
tops tend to own or admire other guitars with carved tops while the laminate
tops guys tend to prefer that sound in other instruments as well. Me, I
think I am unusual in the sense that in the end only have a slight
preference for the carved top guitars. In fact, in recent years I have come
to think of the two different types of guitars as having different uses.
Oddly enough, lately I have been thinking that I might generally prefer the
laminate guitars for use in solo work and the carved tops for group work.
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 12:37 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
True. It's all in the fingers anyway. By the way, this was the first
time I actually engaged in a prolonged discussion here! After all
these years ... No kidding .... So gimme some slack.
I'll go play my Gibson Tal Farlow some more. Yummie ...
#####
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Brian Kelly
I for one hope that you are entirely kidding about not joining in again
until 2009 since I think you have been one of the better contributors here
and your videos are inspiring. Please tell me that it isn't so. I upset
you that much I apologize. That was not my intention at all.
Much Love
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:35 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
Well, I dunno what happened. But I wouldn't worry too much. I have
planned my next discussion here not anytime sooner than 2009 ...
#####
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thegoodwizard
Good post. I will add a caveat. There are jazz guitars that sound
great acoustically. However, almost every one I have found is an
archtop, floating pick-up. I have 2. Once the pick-ups are cut in, it
ultimately screws up the acoustic sound. (IMO, of course)
I agree with you.... the Epiphone Joe Pass model I have sounds like a
piece of driftwood with strings. However others on this list have
seemingly found better ones.
My Epiphone Emperor floater sounds tremendous though. Maybe we should
post MP3s of our guitar sounds. That would be really interesting to
hear what people's guitars record like. Anyone for that? Some folks on
this list have guitars I would like hear. And we can snicker at each
other's clams, too ... haha
I have agreed to do some tracks for the Stromberg folks with the
Stromberg floater I just ordered so maybe I'll post a link when I get
the guitar and do some tracks.
BTW, the size is crucial for me. I played an 18" box for years and the
size was uncomfortable. I played too near the bridge because my arm
wouldn't fit around the guitar properly and my hand position was
screwy. I find that even a deep (4") body, 17" inch guitar is still a
bit big.
17" X 3 or any 16" is perfect for me. Big floaters can sound great
acoustically, but I prefer smaller.
;0)
Doc Dosco
thegoodwizard
>
Touche
I agree 100%. It there was a great sounding guitar made out of
cardboard, I would certainly consider it... however I'm not sure how
long it would last... yuk yuk...
(it would certainly be inexpensive if nothing else)
;0)
Doc
Dick
This proves again what an imperfect medium internet is. I was
kidding man. In the other reply I said that ours was this thread was
the first one in years that I participated in for a prolonged
time ... And I was actually telling the truth. I post here but never
really participate that much in discussions, you know with
argumentation vice versa and reply after reply ....
I said that to indicate that such a participation may well take some
time to happen again ... and it probably will. But that won't stop
me from posting a video or some other stuff of course ...
Again, not to worry man.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Dick,
>
> I for one hope that you are entirely kidding about not joining in
again
> until 2009 since I think you have been one of the better
contributors here
> and your videos are inspiring. Please tell me that it isn't so.
I upset
> you that much I apologize. That was not my intention at all.
>
>
>
>
>
> Much Love
> Brian
>
> _____
>
> From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Dick
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:35 PM
> To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
>
> Well, I dunno what happened. But I wouldn't worry too much. I have
> planned my next discussion here not anytime sooner than 2009 ...
>
> #####
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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daniel martina
hey guys! anyway you can to pay any good guitarist to play for you, maybe your guitars will sound better on this way :-)
que manga de boludos...
ciao
Daniel
www.danielmartina.com.ar
Date: Sat May 27, 2006 10:08am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
Hey Brian & Dick,
What's the point of all this? I don't think any particular guitar 'defines'
the jazz sound, as much as players do. Carved tops vs. laminated tops, etc
make for a lot of passionate discussion, but not much more. Think about it,
the 'sound' of jazz has evolved as the technology and even the music have
evolved. Metheny created a 'jazz' sound, and it's much different from Wes', for
example. Same thing for Sco, whose sound is all his own, and yet he's very
much a 'jazz' guitarist. And then there's someone like Holdsworth...
The music is what's important, and that's defined by things like note
choices, phrasing, technique, 'soul', and yes, at the end of the chain, the
instrument, but I think of all of those things, the instrument is least important.
I vote we declare that the L4 & the 175 are both fine instruments, and leave
it at that. I also suggest there are a host of other instruments that can
achieve a great jazz guitar sound, and given that, the instrument is a factor,
albeit not much of one. I think this kind of repartee takes place because
the instrument is a physical, tangible thing, and easier to talk about than
something like phrasing, eg, which requires in-depth analysis in order to
understand it.
Anyway, you guys are both good players, and this discussion hasn't yielded
anything particularly valuable thus far, so I dunno, you may wish to consider
your reasons for prolonging it.
Cheers,
JV
Juan Vega
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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RONALD VITARELLI
The L4 you have been referring to is, in fact, the L4C. It is a Gibson archtop, offered in 1949, with a solid spruce top. I have a 1950, which was rescued from the jaws of hell. It is a sweet, old archtop that was what was in vogue when the pristeen sound of the guitar was understood. The L4 model, a non-cutaway. predecessor, was, in fact, very different from thte L4C (I own one of each). Taste, or preference, as some of you havae observed, is the issue here. There is, as the wisdom of the ages validates, no accounting for taste. The L4c is a beautiful instument with a fine voice and provenance, as has the L5; the laminate variations cannot compare, but have a rightful place in the annals of jazz guitar.
Forget the bullshit, learn how to play the guitar! When you can sit and play an hour's worth of solo guitar, then pontificate about the many and varied differences between the laminate and solid models.
Rejoice! All is vanity.
Ron
Connecticut
thegoodwizard <d...@doctoraudio.com> wrote:
Truth be
> told I could care less what a guitar is made of. I don't even
consider that
> when purchasing one
I've got a fine paper mache jazz guitar you might be interested in... haha
(just kidding)
;0)
Doc
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Brian Kelly
That's real good news. I was worried.
Best
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:53 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
Brian,
This proves again what an imperfect medium internet is. I was
kidding man. In the other reply I said that ours was this thread was
the first one in years that I participated in for a prolonged
time ... And I was actually telling the truth. I post here but never
really participate that much in discussions, you know with
argumentation vice versa and reply after reply ....
I said that to indicate that such a participation may well take some
time to happen again ... and it probably will. But that won't stop
me from posting a video or some other stuff of course ...
Again, not to worry man.
#####
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WGO
Can you tell me what pick ups you recommend for the Emperor II?
William
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WGO
tightening pickguard and tail. For 600+ I think it has been worth it. I
would also like to experiment with larger models. Any suggestions short of
a luthier building me one?
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shakeyeyes625
and subjective argument but regarding the following statement:
"That's simply not more than an opinion that you vent here. Not fact.
Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates. So
statistically speaking you simply must be wrong. Most classic jazz
players play(ed) laminates. The force of numbers."
This list is inredibly inaccurate. Charlie Christian, "the epitome of
classic jazz tone," Joe Pass, George Benson,Jimmy Raney, Pat Martino,
and Grant Green all made many, if not the majority, (and in
Christian's case, all) of their recordings on solid, carved topped
instruments. You can have your opinion, but please don't misconstrue
facts or mislead others to make your point.
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RONALD VITARELLI
Could there be too many fine guitars, guitarists or approaches to playing (including tonal differences)? Support one another and one another's choices.
RV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brianmayeux
the Arizona Desert... So, I have always been afraid to buy a solid
carved top hollow body... This is because I have heard so many bad
things about not being able to play loud without feedback... Also, I
have been scared about the dry air... Any insight on this ??
I currently own a Gibson ES-175 and a Gibson Les Paul... Love them
both... very high quality instruments... However, Gibsons are
definitely over-priced... But... they don't lose their value so you
are not pissing your money away... If you are ever in a bind you can
liquidate these guitars very easily on ebay...
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, RONALD VITARELLI
<ronald.vitarelli@...> wrote:
>
> Easy Boys!
>
> Could there be too many fine guitars, guitarists or approaches to
playing (including tonal differences)? Support one another and one
another's choices.
>
> RV
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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shakeyeyes625
Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney's tone being absolute heaven, and Kenny
Burrell as well, (regardless of which guitar he played.)
And notice I didn't say the Laminate OR Carved tops were better,
mainly because I like them both and don't really see the need to have
an opinion on a matter that doesn't effect my music. The guitar
effects the music, but not the opinion on which is better. I prefer to
like particular guitars or dislike them. Each instrument, especially
hollowbodies, are unique.
And I really don't have a general preference. My favorite
personal guitar is all solid woods, and a carved top. But that's not
why I like it. I've played classical much longer than jazz, and
studied that through the graduate level, and my Tobias archtop has a
very wide, 1.92" nut, and flat-backed classical-shaped neck. The neck
joins at the 16th fret and it has a great Florentine cutaway so I can
play way up to the 22nd fret, easily. And it has an oval-soundhole
which i've been told, and I guess believe, imparts a warmer, more
sustaining sound at the expense of some projection and volume.
But the bottom line is, I mainly play unplugged when I practice,
or when I play in the Early Jazz ensemble at Rowan, or when I teach,
and this guitar has an astonishing acoustic sound. I do play it
amplified for many gigs, but if I know I'll be playing some hard bop
with a bit of volume, my first choice is a ES-175.
Music is too complex for a simple "always the best..."
mentality, whether regarding players, composers, instruments or
genres. Sorry to be long winded, I mainly wanted to apologize, as I
didn't mean to offend anyone, just regarding the list of Laminate
players, I saw some names that weren't entirely in the right play.
Charlie Christians ES-150 and 250, for example, were both carved
spruce top instrument. I've just reminded myself I wanted to go listen
to some Tal, so take care, all
Sincerely,
Gabriel
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Rick_Poll
Martino played an L5S for an extended period. Not a solid top guitar,
but a solid body. Pass played a 175 for a time. Metheny still does, I
think. Tal Farlow's model is a not a carved top guitar. Benson played
thin line guitars, at least for a time. Not sure about the others. I
don't know what they used most often, but the point is that these guys
could get their sound out of these instruments.
> Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
> Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
> Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates. So
> statistically speaking you simply must be wrong. Most classic jazz
> players play(ed) laminates. The force of numbers."
>
> This list is inredibly inaccurate. Charlie Christian, "the epitome of
> classic jazz tone," Joe Pass, George Benson,Jimmy Raney, Pat Martino,
> and Grant Green all made many, if not the majority, (and in
> Christian's case, all) of their recordings on solid, carved topped
> instruments. You can have your opinion, but please don't misconstrue
> facts or mislead others to make your point.
>
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Andy
---- Rick_Poll <richard...@yahoo.com> wrote:
=============
Most of us have played more than one guitar.
Martino played an L5S for an extended period. Not a solid top guitar,
but a solid body. Pass played a 175 for a time. Metheny still does, I
think. Tal Farlow's model is a not a carved top guitar. Benson played
thin line guitars, at least for a time. Not sure about the others. I
don't know what they used most often, but the point is that these guys
could get their sound out of these instruments.
> Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
> Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
> Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates. So
> statistically speaking you simply must be wrong. Most classic jazz
> players play(ed) laminates. The force of numbers."
>
> This list is inredibly inaccurate. Charlie Christian, "the epitome of
> classic jazz tone," Joe Pass, George Benson,Jimmy Raney, Pat Martino,
> and Grant Green all made many, if not the majority, (and in
> Christian's case, all) of their recordings on solid, carved topped
> instruments. You can have your opinion, but please don't misconstrue
> facts or mislead others to make your point.
>
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Dick
> classic jazz tone," Joe Pass, George Benson,Jimmy Raney, Pat Martino,
> and Grant Green all made many, if not the majority, (and in
> Christian's case, all) of their recordings on solid, carved topped
> instruments. You can have your opinion, but please don't misconstrue
> facts or mislead others to make your point.
That is bullshit and simply NOT true.
#####
Dick
Later on he used a laminate Ibanez (Joe Pass model) almost
exclusively. In his last years it was a 175 again. Jimmy Raney
almost always played a 175. Herb Ellis always used an ES 175. Jim
Hall plays laminates exclusively (he does not like carved tops).
Barney always used a laminate ES 350. Pat Metheny always uses
laminates, like Sco. Tal only played his laminate Tal Farlow or the
ES 350 earlier on. Grant Green used laminates often. Benson has used
laminate Ibanez guitars since the late 70s.
Sure they may have picked up or owned some other guitsrs but they
did not use them much on their major records now, did they?
My list is incredible inaccurate? How on earth can you say that?
#####
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Ronald Murray
D;Angelico and Johnny Smith models, Martino on L5 and Koontz
archtops, Pass on d'Aquisto, Grant Green on Epiphone Emperor, Raney
on L4 and 150, Burrell on Super 400 and L5, Wes on L5, Johnny Smith
on D'Angelico, Hall on D'Aquisto, Bruno on Benedetto, etc. Not
exclusively, but not never either.
> .
>
>
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Rick_Poll
plenty of them. They sound great when they're not feeding back. If
you're playing in situations where you do get feedback, you're going
to have to control it somehow -- probably by damping the vibration of
the top. That's unfortunate, because you paid extra for those
vibrations and now you're going to have pay a little more to get rid
of them.
I'd love to have an L5 -- one without pickups. I'd play it
acoustically, at home, and be in love with it. I wouldn't attempt to
use it on a gig, because of the risk to the guitar and because it
would probably be the wrong tool for the job.
Also, I've posted before about a comparison I did years ago with my
friend Marc, who post on here too. He had a hollow body and I had a
solid body and, when we listened back to a good quality recording, we
couldn't tell who was who. Both of us were surprised.
I think that Wes would have sounded pretty much like Wes if he played
a Les Paul. My personal guess is that his thumb and amp had as much
to do with it as his carved top. Also, he was recorded well most of
the time. But, I have an older album of his where he doesn't sound
quite so great, tone wise.
Fernando
you listen to the whole thing, you can hear from time to time
something rattling somewhere ... a bit like something hanging loose
in the amp or something of the sort ... not that I mind that much - I
see it as one of those idiosyncrasies that adds character - but I
sometimes wonder hmmm why couldn't they just get the damned thing
sorted in the first place?...
cheers
f
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Rick_Poll" <richardipollack@...>
wrote:
(snip)
> Also, he (Wes) was recorded well most of
> the time. But, I have an older album of his where he doesn't sound
> quite so great, tone wise.
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Dick
discussing digfferent things surely.
My point is that the vast majority of classic jazz albums by Joe Pass,
Herb Ellis, Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Jim Hall were all done on
laminate guitars. Do you want me to list the titles of those albums?
My main association with the above artists therefore is laminate
Gibson and with good reason.
Sure other jazz greats used carved tops. But it would be interesting
to do a survey on all the players in Summerfield's book for instance
and simply count who is playing laminate and who carved. Or simply
take the top 25 classic jazz players. In the end it's all just
preference.
But what am I doing? Heck, I hate discussions on the internet.
#####
> Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
> Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
> Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Ronald Murray <rmurray@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, Dick, there's quite a bit of truth in it. Benson recorded on
> D;Angelico and Johnny Smith models, Martino on L5 and Koontz
> archtops, Pass on d'Aquisto, Grant Green on Epiphone Emperor, Raney
> on L4 and 150, Burrell on Super 400 and L5, Wes on L5, Johnny Smith
> on D'Angelico, Hall on D'Aquisto, Bruno on Benedetto, etc. Not
> exclusively, but not never either.
>
> > .
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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awse...@cox.net
The new 165s look terrible BTW...I prefer the older ones.
Andy
---- Dick <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote:
=============
Classic Joe Pass (1960s until deep into the 70s) played an ES 175.
Later on he used a laminate Ibanez (Joe Pass model) almost
exclusively. In his last years it was a 175 again. Jimmy Raney
almost always played a 175. Herb Ellis always used an ES 175. Jim
Hall plays laminates exclusively (he does not like carved tops).
Barney always used a laminate ES 350. Pat Metheny always uses
laminates, like Sco. Tal only played his laminate Tal Farlow or the
ES 350 earlier on. Grant Green used laminates often. Benson has used
laminate Ibanez guitars since the late 70s.
Sure they may have picked up or owned some other guitsrs but they
did not use them much on their major records now, did they?
My list is incredible inaccurate? How on earth can you say that?
#####
> Martino played an L5S for an extended period. Not a solid top
guitar,
> but a solid body. Pass played a 175 for a time. Metheny still
does, I
> think. Tal Farlow's model is a not a carved top guitar. Benson
played
> thin line guitars, at least for a time. Not sure about the others.
I
> don't know what they used most often, but the point is that these
guys
> could get their sound out of these instruments.
>
>
>
> > Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Jim Hall,
> > Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Pat Martino, Grant Green,
> > Pat Metheny, John Scofield, etc etc. ALL play laminates. So
> > statistically speaking you simply must be wrong. Most classic
jazz
> > players play(ed) laminates. The force of numbers."
> >
> > This list is inredibly inaccurate. Charlie Christian, "the
epitome of
> > classic jazz tone," Joe Pass, George Benson,Jimmy Raney, Pat
Martino,
> > and Grant Green all made many, if not the majority, (and in
> > Christian's case, all) of their recordings on solid, carved
topped
> > instruments. You can have your opinion, but please don't
misconstrue
> > facts or mislead others to make your point.
> >
>
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Brian Kelly
laminates but I don't remember either Jimmy Raney or Grant Green ever
playing laminate top guitars. For most of the last part of his life Raney
played a Koontz guitar with a carved top as far as I know.
Brian
Brian Kelly
definitely a laminate but George's guitar was made and designed by he and
Gary Mortoro (I think that is the guy, he's a luthier in Hawaii) and I am
sure it is a carved top. I know it has to sound better than the Ibanez
model because I hade one of those and it was a dog. I had experts try to
straighten that guitar out but nothing would help it. The lower strings
used to vibrate in a sort of opposing wave with itself and there were notes
on it that were so hot feedback was instant even at low levels. The guitar
I had was awarded at a NAMM show to the dealer who placed the largest order
that year from Ibanez and it was introduced by George Benson and signed on
the label inside the guitar. It was said to one of the first ten made and
was signed by George himself. The dealer called me from the show to tell me
about it and let me know that he would hold it for me. When I got it I was
very excited and for years I tried everything I could to get it to work
right. Someone who I thought should know what they were talking about at
the time said tht the guitar was probably made from wood that was not dried
and cured properly and since it had been painted with polyurethane based
paint it would never, ever truly cure right. The good news is that two
Brazilian guys gave me a small fortune for the guitar and were so worried
that I might sell it to someone else before they could get the money wired
here they gave me a deposit that was more than what I paid for the guitar
originally.
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:51 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
#####
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shakeyeyes625
- With all respect, the fact you admit some of those players did use
carved-tops, and that some did use them extensively is fact, is the
very definition of inaccurate. "Incredibly?" hyperbole, perhaps.
*Again, I'm not arguing over what kind of guitar is best- I don't
think it matters one way or the other, I'm just arguing against
inaccuracies and misleading statements.
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shakeyeyes625
apologizing if I sounded harsh.
The list is incredibly inaccurate because:
Christian NEVER played a laminate top
Most of Jimmy Raney's early to mid 1950's recordings are with a solid
top Gibson, many are with a 1930's ES-150 identical to Christians.
Pat Martino and George Benson recorded the majority of their early
work on carved top guitars, exluding of course, Pat's stolen Les Paul.
Grant Green recording many, perhaps the majority of his Blue Note
1960's albums on a carved top Gibson with floating McCarthy pickups.
Jim Hall and Joe Pass used carved tops for acoustic recordings, (for
obvious reasons,) and Joe Pass for low-volume performances.
I'm not saying, by any stretch that carved tops are better. And many
of these players perfered laminates for live performances, and many
also recorded extensively, (some that i didn't mention,) excluseively
on laminates.
ALL I'm saying is that your list had inaccuracies, and seemed to use
them to prove a point that is purely subjective.
I'm not trying to prove anything one way or the other, I just saw
incorrect information and it bugged me for some reason.
The whole argument over what is better seems ridiculous to me,
whatever sounds good and plays good is good. Whatever a player likes
is what they like. But guitarists have used far too many different and
may strange guitars, (Benson at times used a Gretsch!!! when his
Johnny Smiths or Guild Awards weren't available,) for ther eto be a
"standard" guitar or tone. And isn't jazz in particular, and music in
general, about individuality? In that case, what would even be the
attrtaction of using the "standard" tone, even if it had a substantial
effect on the significance of music or its performers, which it
doesn't. Those players all have unique voices and unique tones, and
trying to inflate the importance of their guitars, (and I LOVE
guitars,) seems like focusing on the condom instead of the sex. If
that seems ridiculous, then you've gotten my point.
Dick
you question that you can question the fact that the earth is round.
Practically all recordings I have of him feature him on an ES 175.
Go practice Donna Lee guys. Much more interesting.
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> I am not sue if this is once again an argument over carved top
versus
> laminates but I don't remember either Jimmy Raney or Grant Green
ever
> playing laminate top guitars. For most of the last part of his
life Raney
> played a Koontz guitar with a carved top as far as I know.
>
>
> Brian
> Sorry, Dick, there's quite a bit of truth in it. Benson recorded
on
> D;Angelico and Johnny Smith models, Martino on L5 and Koontz
> archtops, Pass on d'Aquisto, Grant Green on Epiphone Emperor,
Raney
> on L4 and 150, Burrell on Super 400 and L5, Wes on L5, Johnny
Smith
> on D'Angelico, Hall on D'Aquisto, Bruno on Benedetto, etc. Not
> exclusively, but not never either.
>
> > .
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Piotr Zegadło
http://vintage-guitars.blogspot.com/2005/12/gibson-es-175.html
As far as I know, Ellis simply played an older ES-175
with a single pickup. When Gibson decided to introduce
Herb Ellis signature model, the then produced ES-175
had 2 pickups.
I hope it helps,
Piotr
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Ronald Murray
is very different in terms of physiognomy as well as mental
organization. Leavitt (with whom I studied) was not a jazz guitarist
per se; he was a plectrum guitarist. His method was designed with
practical reading applications in mind more than improv, and your
comment on it being academic is really true. There is much
theoretical info in Leavitt's method, and it is very logically
organized, but it does have a stilted approach in terms of the
fingerings. I found that working out of Mick Goodrick's Advancing
Guitarist helped to break the boxiness of Leavitt's approach. Howard
Roberts was certainly more the jazz guitarist than Leavitt, and very
brilliant, so I'm sure his methodology is superb, and I wouldn't
recommend against it. I would recommend against paying too much
attention to the opinions of the participants on this site. We are a
diverse bunch, and the entertainment value here is probably as
valuable as the informational.
>
>
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chiphend
> appreciated.
John,
I own both guitars you asked about. If anyone has answered your
question I apologize - I'm getting the "who played what" debates.
As far as tone goes, I feel the L4 is much brighter than the 175.
Saying this, you need to go somewhere and play both and decide with
your ears which one is best suited for you and your music. If you
cannot play these two models - call a reputable dealer in your area
and get them to sit down and talk to you about your wants/ needs.
There has to be someone within and hour or two from where you live
that can help out.
I really love both of my guitars and play them in different musical
settings. Example - small group stuff (duo, trio, some quartet) I
use the L4. For anything that might be high volume or outdoors I
play the 175. Both guitars feel the same and I have them set to
match one another so going between the two is not an issue.
I hope this helps you in the decision making process. If I can help
out any further - contact me off list.
Chip
shakeyeyes625
There's no need to be rude. I can't understand why this is such a
personal and important topic to you. If you read any of my replies
you'd see my points, and that I never disagreed with your opinions or
resorted to lies or foul language.
Looking through my albums, what I said, and what has been backed up by
others on this forum, is absolutely true. Jimmy Raney used his ES-150
well into the mid 1950's, which is a carved top guitar. Beyond the
Blue Horizon, George Benson Live, and many others are solid tops, Pat
Martino used his oval hole Koontz, of which I own a relative,
throughout the 1970's.
The players I mentioned ALL used carved tops AND laminates.
Furthermore I don't care what they used. But wanting to believe they
only used laminates to support your argument simply doesn't make it
true. "Truthiness" perhaps.
The only reason i've even responded as much as a i have has nothing
to do with a debate over guitars, it has to do with setting the facts
straight, and I also don't take kindly to be cursed at for telling the
truth.
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Dick
let's quit.
#####
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john dean
playing it through a little old gibson amp. I have the exact same
guitar, a 1956 one p-90 neck pickup mahogany box with laminated spruce
top. I belive they begain making that unit in 54 or 55. When I hear
those recordings they sound exactly like my guitar. I wish I did, I'm
totally useless on it. As Jim Hall said, they just get better every
year of age.
john
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Piotr "Zegad³o" <compynow@...> wrote:
>
> Here You can read about it a bit:
>
> http://vintage-guitars.blogspot.com/2005/12/gibson-es-175.html
>
> As far as I know, Ellis simply played an older ES-175
> with a single pickup. When Gibson decided to introduce
> Herb Ellis signature model, the then produced ES-175
> had 2 pickups.
>
> I hope it helps,
> Piotr
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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Brian Kelly
I just quickly looked through a fansite of Jimmy Raney's and in the picture
section he is shown playing what looks like an L5 more often than a 175. He
may have actually played a 175 more often than a L5 but this is not the way
I remember seeing Jimmy play guitar.
Donnie Loeffler who is an active member on this site lives in Louisville and
knew Raney personally or at least knows people like Jeff Sherman who knew
Jimmy well. Hopefully he will check in soon.
That reminds me, I have been to Jeff's house many times and seen many, many
unpublished pictures of Jimmy and I don't particularly remember him playing
a 175 that much. Actually, I don't remember seeing him play one at all.
Since I am not a fan of the 175 guitar at all (I really, really don't like
the way they sound) you would think that I would have noticed if he was
playing one since I love Jimmy Raney.
Jimmy was close friends with one of my closest friends here in Nashville and
used to stay with him often for weeks at a time so I could ask him if he
ever saw Jimmy with a 175 but I think I know the answer to that question
since the Koontz guitar I told you about was the only thing Raney played for
at least the last 10 years he was playing. Or it's at lest the last guitar
I ever remember him playing.
By the way Dick, if I could make a 175 sound as good as you do I would have
one but as it is I can't. That you can get yours sounding so good was one
of the first things I noticed about your playing because when the video
first came on and I saw a 175 I was expecting the worst but your guitar with
you playing it sounded lovely.
Brian
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Dick
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 6:49 AM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
I really give up now. Jimmy Raney was a habitual ES 175 player. If
you question that you can question the fact that the earth is round.
Practically all recordings I have of him feature him on an ES 175.
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john dean
doesn't sound anything at all like a friend of mine's from the 80's
that is made of maple and feels and sounds totally different. I've
played several in music stores from different eras and they all sound
different.
If they were so horrible I don't think Pat Metheney and Jim Hall would
have made some of their greatest music with them. I don't think these
guys who are tone obsessed are that stupid.
john
175 I was expecting the worst but your guitar with
> you playing it sounded lovely.
>
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> _____
>
> From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Dick
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 6:49 AM
> To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Gibson L4 vs 175
>
> I really give up now. Jimmy Raney was a habitual ES 175 player. If
> you question that you can question the fact that the earth is round.
> Practically all recordings I have of him feature him on an ES 175.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Donnie Loeffler
Of all the times I saw and talked to jimmy raney from the mid 80's
until his death in the mid 90's I NEVER saw him with a gibson.
However, Jimmy Raney did have a gibson endorsement from the early
50's and through the mid 60's. I KNOW jimmy played fender D'Aquisto
model for many of his late years and he also played a Hofner
president through alot of the 70's. I think many of his gibson's
went to his son , Doug; however, I'm not postive on that. I think
it really doesn't matter too much what kind of guitar he played or
others for that matter as long we can LISTEN to their music with
joy! Jimmy was a great player, great teacher and great composer,
and still is one of the most underated guitarists of all time
compared to the mainstream folks of the likes of Montgomery, and
Farlow. One of my all time fav's is Barney Kessel who was Howard
Roberts main reason for being a guitarist!
Donnie Loeffler
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
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Dick
Jimmy Raney played an ES 175 regularly from the late 1970s until the
mid eighties and used it on albums from that era (the Aebersold
albums, Stolen Moments, Duets, Raney 81, the Master and maybe on
Wisteria too). Later on he may have changed, I don't know. He was
photographed with it several times during that era.
Some of those happen to be my favorite Raney albums.
My ES 175 sounds great indeed. But in addition to the mahogany neck,
it also has a mahogany back and sides. I suspect - and others
confirmed this - that is what makes it sound so sweet and mellow.
I am going on holiday so take care. Regards and exit for now ...
#####
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
shakeyeyes625
And I hope you've understood my points and what I've tried to say.
Other than that, there's no point in getting roused up over this
further, we should move on or discuss something profitable, like, say,
how great Tal Farlow's 1950's Verve recordings are...
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Dick
than me! Agreed and take care.
#####
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Brian Kelly
Listen up! I never said that 175 were "horrible" at least not technically
speaking. All I said was that I don't like them at all. If there are any
that would appeal to me I have never played one. I made it clear that I
like the sound Dick gets out of his and maybe I would like what you can do
with yours but for me personally they are a waste. I wouldn't even have one
if it was given to me for free. They just don't make a sound that I enjoy.
At least none of them that I have heard so far.
Please understand that my opinions about what is worthwhile artistically are
just the ones I operate off of I am not asking anyone else to hear it the
way I do. You are welcome to enjoy whatever you like. I myself have owned
three L5's in my playing lifetime and they are the guitars that I most enjoy
but they are too big for me and now I play a $800.00 Epiphone Joe Pass Model
that I would love to replace but I can't find anything I truly like better
so I work with it. I like it well enough that I am looking for another one
as a back-up instrument. I hear people complain about these guitars all of
the time but I get lots of people asking me who modified mine to make it
sound so good but in truth it has spent most of its life as a near stock
instrument other than changing the bridge. Anyhow, I am sure 99.99% of the
players out there would rather have your instrument than mine but that makes
no difference to me since the 175 model just doesn't speak to me and I don't
think I could ever learn to make one sing for me either. For this reason I
don't use them.
Brian
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Thesl...@aol.com
In a message dated 7/19/2006 2:23:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
shake...@aol.com writes:
discuss something profitable, like, say,
how great Tal Farlow's 1950's Verve recordings are...
...or how much I love Barney Kessel's "Blue Guitar" Album...........
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Chris Smart
>"My list is incredible inaccurate? How on earth can you say that?"
Look, what is the point of this thread? Play jazz on whatever
guitar feels and sounds right for you - I'm sure that's what all
the guys mentioned here did and do.
--
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Dick
>
> Dick...what was the evolution for Herb Ellis...I mean the 165 is
the "Herb Ellis" model. It IS a 175 but with only 1 pickup. Did he
ever play the 165 for endorsement reasons?
I have to be careful here. I once wrote my opinion on the new Herb
Ellis and got flamed by a guy who owned one.
Still, I do not understand the concept of a floater on a laminate. I
think it's a marketing trick (snob appeal). It's not a bad guitar of
course but it sounded better to my ears with the routed in humbucker.
The whole idea of the ES 175 IS a routed in pup on a laminate top.
So I prefer the older Herb Ellis. But I have to admit I don't like
floaters much, neither on carved tops, nor on laminates. They sound
tinny and too trebly for my taste.
I don't know if Herb Ellis actually plays the floater HE.
#####
thegoodwizard
flaming... Obviously some people must see a point or they wouldn't go
on and on and on about it... haha
;0)
Doc
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <d.onstenk@...> wrote:
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, <awseyler@> wrote:
> >
> > Dick...what was the evolution for Herb Ellis...I mean the 165 is
> the "Herb Ellis" model. It IS a 175 but with only 1 pickup. Did he
> ever play the 165 for endorsement reasons?
>
> I have to be careful here. I once wrote my opinion on the new Herb
> Ellis and got flamed by a guy who owned one.
>
> Still, I do not understand the concept of a floater on a laminate. I
> think it's a marketing trick (snob appeal). It's not a bad guitar of
> course but it sounded better to my ears with the routed in humbucker.
> The whole idea of the ES 175 IS a routed in pup on a laminate top.
>
> So I prefer the older Herb Ellis. But I have to admit I don't like
> floaters much, neither on carved tops, nor on laminates. They sound
> tinny and too trebly for my taste.
>
> I don't know if Herb Ellis actually plays the floater HE.
>
> #####
>
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thegoodwizard
>
> Still, I do not understand the concept of a floater on a laminate.
Are you serious?
I usually stay out of these pointless exchanges but this is just plain
silly...
;0)
Doc
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Brad Little
will go on forever. I do it myself. However, I feel that the most important thing about sound
production is not the guitar nor the amp, but the input. Good players will sound good on $20
Kay flattop, and poor players will sound poor on a vintage D'Angelico. Become one with the
instrument (and amp) you have and don't covet the one you can't afford because you think it
will make you a better guitarist. I stopped playing for a living (or trying to) years ago, now I
teach computers, and we have an acronym, GIGO: Garbage in Garbage Out. The output of
anything is only as good as the input, and no matter what you put in the middle, it's still the
same at the output.
Just my 2 cents,
Brad Little
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