[jazz_guitar] Are es-335 capable of "real" jazz tone?

[Koek Wei Chew]

Seriously, there must be a problem on my playing, but being an owner of
a ES-335 for the past month, I still find it hard to get a satisfiable
jazz tone.

But when I come into thought, I don't see much jazz player yields a
335, Larry Carlton, Robben Ford, Lee Ritenour does; but I would
consider those as fusion tone rather than straight ahead. Emily Remler
does get a fabulous tone out of her 335, but I tried all kinds of
settings without avail.

Now, I am thinking of letting off my new 335 for a Herb Ellis; can
anyone gave me any advice before I do so?

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[JVeg...@aol.com]

"Now, I am thinking of letting off my new 335 for a Herb Ellis; can anyone
gave me any advice before I do so?"

Before you go looking for your tone in the gear, is there a teacher in your
area that you can take a lesson with? Maybe he or she can help make you
aware of something that's keeping you from getting the sound you want. You
should be able to get a very satisfactory jazz tone out of an ES-335, unless what
you're looking for is an acoustic archtop sound (Freddie Green, eg), in which
case you'd probably have to go with an instrument change...

Good luck,
JV

Juan Vega

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Steve Sachse]

Honestly I think that theren't arent a whole lot of guitars that won't
yield a decent jazz tone. Ed Bickert uses a Telecaster! I can see
some of Ritenour's stuff as being fusiony, but I have a recording
where he's got absolutely gorgeous straight ahead tone. I think it's
called "Wesbound"? Another that comes to mind is Steve Cardenas. I
love that guy's sound and he has a tangerene 335. I also use a PRS
Hollowbody myself BTW.

I find that other than the guitar you can make a world of tonal
difference by simply switching picks, strings, and pickups. Speaker
changes to your amp will also greatly affect the sound. Are you
comparing your 335 sound to a jazzbox that you also own?

[will_halligan]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...> wrote:
>

> Seriously, there must be a problem on my playing, but being an owner
>of
> a ES-335 for the past month, I still find it hard to get a
>satisfiable
> jazz tone.

Before you you let go of what is probably a pretty damn good guitar.
What strings and what amp are you using?

Will

[Brian Kelly]

Others will say differently but I agree with you that a 335 simply cannot make a decent straight ahead jazz tone.

Best
Brian

[will_halligan]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>
> Others will say differently but I agree with you that a 335 simply
>cannot make a decent straight ahead jazz tone.
>
>
>
>
> Best
> Brian

I was trying to get a Johnny Smith sound a couple of years ago and
strung a Shereton with Gibson flat 12s - the tone was the nearest I had
thus got to what I wanted.

Strings make a heck of a difference.

Best wishes,

Will

[Mike]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>

> Others will say differently but I agree with you that a 335 simply
cannot make a decent straight ahead jazz tone.
>
>
>
>
> Best
> Brian

Oh, puh-leeze. The ever-famous "if it isn't Wes, it's not pure"
attitude. Martino gets a phenominal tone, and he's not playing a 175
or an L5.

[Rick_Poll]

I guess that when people talk about "pure jazz tone" they mean they
want to sound like Wes.

What were the most important things about his tone?

My guesses:

1. The fact that he played with his thumb, not a pick.

That's so important, you could leave out the rest.

2. He used an L5 -- a 25.5 inch scale instrument. Which is longer
than a 335.

3. He got his tone with different amps, as I understand the history,
so amp choice probably doesn't matter that much. You probably won't
find an old Standel to test your guitar with, but you could try it
through a twin reverb, which Wes also used.

4. I don't recall his string gauge, but string gauge matters, so you
could try to match it, which probably means going heavier, and
considering that the 35 is a 24 3/4 instrument, so you'll get less
tension at the same gauge.

5. Having said all of that, I'd be very surprised if it turned out to
be impossible to get a decent tone from a 335.

Martino got his tone from a solid body L5S, which is a short scale
instrument. He used very heavy strings.

Pass used a 175 for many years, although, frankly, I don't think he
got such great tone.

Jim Hall gets fabulous tone -- and I think he was a 24 3/4 player
using a pick. I think one of his secrets is that he emphasizes middle
register voice movement, which occurs on the middle strings -- and
it's easier to make them sound warm than the highest strings.

Rick

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...>
wrote:
>

[Brian Kelly]

Mike,

Gee, I don't remember mentioning anything about Wes Montgoemry, the L5 guitar or a 175 for that matter.

I just think the 335 has a sound that is very unique to those guitars and one I don't care to hear a jazz standard played on one. I am sure there is somebody that can do it but you can tell by the amount of people that have done it (I can't thiunk of anybody) that it is using a 335 five and playing straight ahead jazz . It's a sound I was never able to cover or hide no matter what I did with mine. I think that tone is so characteristic of those guitars that even the import copies sound just like them. I owned one for about three weeks and when nothing I did would make the guitar work for me I got rid of it.

I don't use an L5 or a 175 either (personally I am not a fan of the 175's either but I think they are entirtely suiitable for jazz but just not a personal favorite of mine) so my cooments were not at all based on my own preferences in instruemnts. I've played straight ahead jazz on everything from an L5 to a Stratocaster and I still do. I can argue that the stratocaster is unsuitable for jazz as well but I think what happens with them is that their souind is such a big part of the sound of the modern guitar that they seem to work anyway and beyond that guys like Loren Lofsky can make his really sing.

I hope that helps.

Bain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Flamur Ahmeti]

It's a myth to have archtop bigger sound box to sound great in jazz.
ES-335 is one of the best guitar for jazz tone. Sorry Brian! I use to play this guitar on 90s and I got one of the best sounds that compete and match (if not better) with Wes Montgomery tone. This guitar has absolutelly great sonority. Furthermore, you can also reach that woody, mellow, dark or non dark (depends on preference controled by treble). I played this guitar on a simple Roland 45 amp, Fender tube, and Polytone. On each of them I had outstanding tone. Great mids, and the best sound I got last year when I played it on Thomastik Infeld 013 swing. You can go on a lower string and I think it is better, because then you can have better balance between the bas and the higher notes.
I also have ES-175, but I play both of them. ES-175 I love because of the sound box (it is bigger and fits ergonomically with my style of paying as I come from classical guitar playing).
I play ES 335 over these past 10 years, and I think for me it is far better than L5.

Cheers,

Flamur

Brian Kelly <bke...@bkellyusa.com> wrote: Others will say differently but I agree with you that a 335 simply cannot make a decent straight ahead jazz tone.

Best
Brian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Steve Sachse]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>

> Mike,
>
> Gee, I don't remember mentioning anything about Wes Montgoemry, the
L5 guitar or a 175 for that matter.
>
> I just think the 335 has a sound that is very unique to those
guitars and one I don't care to hear a jazz standard played on one. I
am sure there is somebody that can do it but you can tell by the
amount of people that have done it (I can't thiunk of anybody) that it
is using a 335 five and playing straight ahead jazz .

Steve Cardenas. Great tone.

[Al]

I've heard Ritenour's guitar sound like a pure jazzer on a Bob Marley
tribute CD, it's really a matter of settings and most likely your amp
also. Some add a touch of chorus also, that fattens the sound, but I
once used an ES, and getting a jazz tone wasn't that hard...don't ask
me why I don't have it anymore though....basically too many get the
guitar and wonder why it doesn't sound like they wanted, but it's a
package with a properly matched amp, and settings also. But I'd be
hard pressed to say that if you got an ES-175 instead, you wouldn't
get a jazz tone without breaking a sweat.

Al

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...> wrote:
>

[Koek Wei Chew]

Lee Ritenour is using an L5 in Wesbound, and if like a member
suggested, using chorus will be out of the standard jazz realm.

I tried the guitar in 12s round, I think it has enough midrange and
bass to cut in a band, but I simply need to cut my tone much and they
lacked the clarity when playing chords.

I've just tried it with 13's flats and I think it sounded even muddier
than ever.

I agree that Pat Martino gets great tone but he's playing with 15's,
and still I think his tone is too dark for accompaniment and I would
still consider it to be on the modern side. I haven't heard of Steve
Cardenas, but I know Dave Stryker had good tone with a 347, and a
little similar to Pat but still it was more of a modern tone; I do
think their tone would work terrifically for jazz funk or organ trio.

I played it with a Yamaha DG60FX, and a Roland AC60; I have tried it
with my friend's Roland Jc-90 and Cubes and still didn't get a
satisfyable result.

Thinking of Ed Bickert, I may consider that Telecaster had a more
straight tone than 335, simply because they had that "spread" sound
when playing chords. On the 335, it was either too bright or too muddy.

I didn't had that much of preference of Wes's, Pass or Jim Hall's tone,
I am after Jesse Van Ruller, Howard Alden kind of tone.

Regards

[Jim Guss]

I don't' comment much, but since so many posts have been coming up
concerning tone I thought I would offer my perspective after playing for 35
years on L-5s, Byrdlands, Strats, 335's Teles, PRS Hollowbody's LesPauls,
Etc. Tone fundamentally comes from the hands of the player. Sure you can
tweak your tone control, reverb, etc. Maybe you like a clean sound or a mid
gain tube sound, but the quality of a note is much more a product of your
articulation. Think about your left hand as well. How long do you hold a
note before you release and pick the next? Are you legato or staccato or
somewhere in between? The point that the actual instrument becomes a factor
is either when you're extremely acoustic (archtop low volume) or extremely
amplified where your technique changes to compensate for feedback. Anyway,
IMHO this is the majority of the tone story.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Donnie Loeffler]

Howdy,

I agree that in most cases what a player really sounds like is what
his left and right are doing. Does that mean that all the tone is
in the "hands"? Not really, but it is about at least half of the
equation. Using a humbucker or a P-90 in the bass position on the
neck will yield a suitable jazz tone. If you go true archtop like a
L-5 it will be a little more "chunky" and at times "piano like"
becuase of the string tension. However, I've heard my Epiphone SG
custom copy sound pretty good too, as well as a les paul. The only
thing I don't like about archtops is the feedback issues. If you
don't use F-hole plugs, you'll probably experience some feedback
issues. You don't really have to play loud really, sometimes it's
the sound pressure from a amplified bass that can affect the
feedback, or the amount of air that is moving in the body chamber.

I've got a Epiphone Dot Deluxe (ES-335 copy) with real gibson
humbuckers and it get's a great jazz tone with the neck PU, and the
tone dialed down to about 7 or so. If you have 12's or so on this
guitar , it's got a great jazz tone. Right now, I'm using a Gibson
ES-137 w/ 12's and a vintage Princeton Reverb and the tone is great
for days. I've really like the semi-hollow body design for jazz,
still get's the archtop "chunky" sound , but also doesn't feedback.
The ES-137 uses mahogany for the first time in the gibson center
block design. I think I'll probably use the full archtops in the
studio, but the tone on the ES-137 is nice and so is it's unique
neck profile.

You've got to have 2 things to get a good jazz tone:

1. moderate to heavy guage strings
2. neck position on the pickup, preferably HB or P-90

Ironically , I find the mounted pickups to have more sustain than
the "floating" pickup. Especially , if it's a center block design
semi-hollowbody like the 335's or 135, 137's, etc. I think the Pat
Martino gibson is a semi-hollow body , right?

Donnie Loeffler

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Flamur Ahmeti <flamur69@...>
wrote:

>
> It's a myth to have archtop bigger sound box to sound great in
jazz.
> ES-335 is one of the best guitar for jazz tone. Sorry Brian! I use
to play this guitar on 90s and I got one of the best sounds that
compete and match (if not better) with Wes Montgomery tone. This
guitar has absolutelly great sonority.

[chin yaik]

Koek,

I own a Gibson ES-165. Before making up your mind, here are a few things to
consider:-

1. The ES-335 is more versatile than ES-165. I played my friend's one and it
can also do country and rockabilty. The ES-165 can fare moderately on those
2 genres but its best for the fat warm tone (assuming flats are used).

2. If you are in Malaysia, Woh Fatt no longer carries Gibson. So I'm not
sure how you are going to get it.

3. If and when you do get it, make sure you fit it with 11s first. My
tailpiece broke and I had to replace it with the stronger one that the
original ES-175 uses.

If you want to sample how mine sounds like, here's the link (I recorded it
unplugged):-

http://www.angelfire.com/musicals/penangjazz/mp3.html

Track1.mp3 (download this)

Track2.mp3 (Its my Taylor DM-310)

Rgrds,

Chee.

[JVeg...@aol.com]

You've got to have 2 things to get a good jazz tone:

1. moderate to heavy gauge strings

2. neck position on the pickup, preferably HB or P-90

I'll give Donnie 1/2 of it, and that's #2. I know a lot of good players who
get a killer jazz tone using .010s, along with a deliberate touch and
amp/guitar tone adjustment. A poor example perhaps is Santana, who has had some
killer tone using .009s. My friend Peter Hata (guitarist for Hiroshima in the
80s) plays an Ibanez solid body with .010s, and you'd swear you're hearing
Pat Martino, no kidding.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: tone is in your hands, and you
use the instrument and the amp to refine it, not the other way around. If we
as players try to rely on the gear, we're taking away the one "organic"
aspect of our command of our sound away, not a good thing. Think about it; I'd be
willing to bet Tiger Woods could take my golf clubs and play a terrific
round; maybe not to his standards, but pretty darn good.

Try this mantra, "the gear is a means to an end", (repeat that 100 times a
day, bring your own incense)...

When I was shopping for a jazz box back in the late 70s, Jimmy Wyble was
kind enough to go with me to check the instrument out; he made "my" guitar sound
like a million bucks, & I'm still trying... Equipment is a means to an end,
nothing more. Ornette played a plastic saxophone, guys. Get over it, back
to the woodshed...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[dangelico603]

Dude, you got to hang out with Jimmy Wyble? How cool is that?
Jason

[Scott McLoughlin]

I'll just chime in with pickup height adjustment and pick
guage as other important tonal factors.

Futz with bass side pickup height for"muddiness" issues,
and use a nice heavy duty pick in any cause. Don't be shy
about fine tuning string volume via the pole piece screws
either.

And try varitions between guitar treble and amp sources of
treble, tonal "truisms" be damned.

I've been resuscitating my Ibanez AS-180 with heavy TI
"George Benson" strings, and I've been experiment with, and
marvelling at, the nuances of its tonal qualities. Ballsy, punchy
mids and highs with a crap load of bass comes out of those
Super 58's. It takes some work to tame it, but worth it.

Same goes for a 335 I imagine.

Scott

JVeg...@aol.com wrote:

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[Koek Wei Chew]

Mine is a ES-335 VS Dot Reissue, which my friend in Japan got for me
for a good price. It was the same model used my Yosuke Onuma.

[Brian Kelly]

I would argue that a persons tone is not simply in his hands but isa broad combination of many things from what pick he used, how he holds it to waht size strings he uses and how high the action isand a whole host of other things. However, I am almost positve that even without any extreme changes to his prefferred settings I can set Pat Martinos amp up in such a way that he will not be able to fully recover his sound no matter what he does.

I also think that so much of what we recognize as a players sound is not entirely related to what is happening tonally with his gear. Pat Martino would prbaly be recognizable as Pat Martino even if he was playing a banjo.

Best
Brian

[Chris Smart]

As far as I know, Sheryl Bailey uses a Yamaha ES-335 type guitar.

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[Brian Kelly]

Chris,

I think that you are correct about that.

Best
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Smart
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Re: Are es-335 capable of "real" jazz tone?

As far as I know, Sheryl Bailey uses a Yamaha ES-335 type guitar.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Flamur Ahmeti]

Brian,

You are talking abut Martino's trade mark improvisation and playing. Guitar sonority is something else. Guitar must have a good sonority otherwise it is not a guitar.
Let's just stop with this myth that guitar tone is on the hands of the player and no particular quality guitar is needed. Two qualities must be put together to get that tone we all seek for: quality guitar and quality finger touch (meat/quality nails) Personally I don't favor pick playing, and I think few artists managed to get good sound using the pick, plus it limmits real virtuoso playing capabilities.

Folks, let's not forget, guitar is the only true instrument (poliphonic one) that its sounds are produced directly from human finger picking. No bow, pick, hammer etc is needed. It has verity of sound colors. They need to be explored.

ES 335 is a very good guitar and has great sonority and is suitable for jazz.


Many regards,

Flamur

[stringswinger]

I own many (too many) guitars and play them all semi professionally,
doing jazz gigs. My collection includes a 335, a 175, an L-5 and a
Gibson Pat Martino (among others).

My observations:

Tone is mostly in the fingers.

You can get a great jazz sound from a 335. Those who say you can't,
probably can't get a good jazz sound out of Wes' L-5. My 335 is
strung with TI Benson 12's. I use dunlop 1.5 mm picks and play
through either a Polytone MBII, an AER Compact 60 or an Acoustic
Image Clarus with either a Redstone Audio or Raezer's edge Cabinet.
With my Fender 65 Deluxe (I have too many amps as well), the 335
sounds a little nasal. The fender amp needs a full size archtop to
get a great jazz sound.

The 335 is perhaps the most versatile instrument in my collection. I
have a Les Paul (great jazz tone) and a Strat (OK jazz tone, the
guitar has a brightness that just can't be EQ'd out). I haven't used
my 335 on a gypsy jazz gig yet, but I will one of these days. And it
will sound great.

Bottom line for me, those who can't get a good jazz tone out of a
335 need lessons and practice, not a different guitar. (just trying
to be helpful here)

Cheers,

Marc

www.hotclubpacific.com

[Ronald Murray]

Every fine guitarist I've ever hung out with has the ability to make
even a cheap piece of junk guitar sound far better than it should,
Flamur, so let's put this sonority argument to bed once and for all.
Ed Bickert's beat to hell Telecaster sounds fantastic in his hands,
while Ted Nugent's very expensive, sonorous Byrdland sounds like crap
in his. and pick playing swings harder than fingerstyle, even as it's
limiting for polyphony. You sound like you think everybody should
sound the same.

[Rick_Poll]

A great player can make a single note sound great. And can probably
do it on a broad range of equipment.

Some of this is angels on the head of a pin, stuff -- open entirely
to subjective judgement, but here's mine:

While single note jazz playing with a pick does "swing" better, the
truly amazing displays of virtuosity I've ever seen were all from
fingerstyle players. In fact, if those guys wanted to swing playing
American jazz, I strongly suspect they have more than enough
technique.

I agree that a good player can make a cheap guitar sound pretty good,
but there's a reason that good players generally have good
instruments. They want great feel, great durability, great
intonation, and, probably last for electric players, great sound. I'm
not putting down sound, but if a guitar has all those other features,
you can probably find the right complement of electronics to make it
sound the way you want.

It would be nice if we could run a blindfold test on here, and see if
we jazzbos can really tell a fine archtop from a Telecaster.

Rick

[steinbergerstyler]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...> wrote:
>

> Are es-335 capable of "real" jazz tone?

Yes.

[Koek Wei Chew]

Here, I am not saying a 335 sounded bad, nor I wanted a more fancy
guitar et all.
Like what I've stated, my 335 couldn't do REAL jazz; I agree that Ed
Bickert had good jazz tone with his Tele, but it was still different,
especially when you do chord melody and such.
No matter what it still didn't sounded sonorous enough; it is good for
fusion and modern jazz (Sheryl Bailey, Pat Martino, Dave Stryker), but
not so for STANDARD jazz.

[Rick_Poll]

Whose tone are you referring to when you say "standard jazz"?

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...> wrote:
>

[Chris Smart]

So what, in your mind, is good enough/adequate enough for standard
jazz? and what is standard jazz guitar to you ... Charlie
Christian? Montgomery?

At 09:00 PM 11/8/2006, you wrote:

>Here, I am not saying a 335 sounded bad, nor I wanted a more fancy
>guitar et all.
>Like what I've stated, my 335 couldn't do REAL jazz; I agree that Ed
>Bickert had good jazz tone with his Tele, but it was still different,
>especially when you do chord melody and such.
>No matter what it still didn't sounded sonorous enough; it is good
>for
>fusion and modern jazz (Sheryl Bailey, Pat Martino, Dave Stryker),
>but
>not so for STANDARD jazz.
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[Koek Wei Chew]

I mentioned earlier, Jesse Van Ruller, Howard Alden.
Maybe Peter Bernstein those kind of new retro tone gave you an idea.
It wasn't only Charlie Christian and Wes or Burrell had classic jazz
tone, my playing wasn't of that kind of blues based vibe nor I am
after that kind of tone.

[Flamur Ahmeti]

Ronald,

Please stop making prejudice. I said fingerpicking I didn't say pick. So how can you state I sound like I think like everybody should sound the same. It is interesting how do you relate that. That's prejudice. I was refereing at fingerstyle playing, and if in this style the sound is the same.....no comment!

Every fine guitarist you've hung around out with had ability to make even a cheap piece of junk guitar sound far better than it should? Hmmmmm....!!! Probably these guitarists you are refering at, had only played a piece of junk during their entire life and their audiance listens to that.

"Without a beautiful sonority the charm of guitar dissapears absolutelly" Andres Segovia

Cheers,

Flamur

Ronald Murray <rmu...@snet.net> wrote: Every fine guitarist I've ever hung out with has the ability to make

even a cheap piece of junk guitar sound far better than it should,
Flamur, so let's put this sonority argument to bed once and for all.
Ed Bickert's beat to hell Telecaster sounds fantastic in his hands,
while Ted Nugent's very expensive, sonorous Byrdland sounds like crap
in his. and pick playing swings harder than fingerstyle, even as it's
limiting for polyphony. You sound like you think everybody should
sound the same.
On Nov 8, 2006, at 10:50 AM, Flamur Ahmeti wrote:
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
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[will_halligan]

At last year`s jazz masterclass Andy Summers said that in his view a
335 was the perfect guitar. (His words.)

Will

[jazzcatfish]

What is a real jazz tone anyway? Grant Green's brightness, Barney
Kessel's lightness, Pat Martino's 12-string, Wes Montgomery's dry
warmth? Find a guitar that YOU like the sound of through the amp you
want to use. None of us are clones of other players. And nor should
our sound be a clone of another's sound either.

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>

[Roger Placer]

Emily Remler used an ES-330, a different beast with P90's, a trapeze
tp, and fully hollow.
Sheryl Bailey uses a Rick McCurdy guitar, a different beast with ??
pickups and an ebony tp. It's also smaller.

The modern stopbar and '57 Classic equipped Gibson ES-335 is a singular
and iconic guitar. Even the ES-347, billed as a "premium 335" is not a
335. I know, I had one. I could not get a 335 sound out of it!! I
guess what I'm trying to say is that it's hard to dial the 335 sound
out of a 335, just like a Strat or a Tele very reluctantly sheds its
essential character.

So to maximize your 335 for jazz, put 12 gauge flats on it, and see
what you can do with the other variables - pick, amp, etc. But the 335
is what it is. And I would argue that if that's the guitar you like to
play and it feels good, you can get a great jazz tone out of it.

Roger

[chin yaik]

With regards to chord melody,

I've heard of jazz players doing it on Taylor acoustic guitars and made it
sound really good. Alex De Grassi's version of "Darn that Dream" is a fine
example.

[kuboken1]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@...>
wrote:

> I mentioned earlier, Jesse Van Ruller, Howard Alden.

> Maybe Peter Bernstein those kind of new retro tone gave you an idea.

You're right, if you want a sound like Alden (very acoustic
sounding), you won't get it from a 335.

You said you didn't like the solo chord-melody type sound on a 335.
This may not change your mind, but listen to some of these sound
clips. I like the sound alot.

It's Dave Stryker playing christmas tunes by himself on a 335 (or 335-
like guitar).

Pretty nice stuff.

http://www.sixstringsanta.com

Ken

[kuboken1]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "kuboken1" <kuboken1@...> wrote:

p.s. on tone:

I agree that tone is pretty much in the fingers (I sound the same
whether I play a 335 or 175).

Abercrombie said he loves arch-tops, but said that he uses electric
mostly because at large volumes you basically just hear the pickup and
amp anyway (plus electric is much more durable for going on the road).

On the other hand, I don't think anyone can get a chocolatey, warm
sound like Peter Bernstein, Russell Malone or Kenny Burrell from a 335.

I remember playing with someone who had a really nice 'jazz' guitar and
I was playing my Les Paul, and although I love the tone I usually get
from whatever I play (including a $300 broom clone), side-by-side,
there's just no match.

So I can understand people wanting a nice archtop.

[Koek Wei Chew]

Dave Stryker's 335 had an out of phase sound, does he change his
pickup wirings? It still lacked a little clarity to me.
Not exactly acoustic, I would be content if I can get Emily Remler's
type of airy sound and even Grant Green's tone is airy enough.
I have my 335 loaded with 13 flats now, and still I am not entirely
happy with it.
Maybe like another member mentioned, a 335 will sounded like a 335.

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "kuboken1" <kuboken1@...> wrote:
>

> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew" <wckoek@>

[Flamur Ahmeti]

Did you try Thomastik Infeld strings?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[brianmayeux]

You are correct.... Others will say differently... In fact almost
all of us will say differetnly...

MY OPINION is use the right srtings, pickups (57 Classics are stock
and they are perfect for jazz tone), amp, and musician and an
es335/Epiphone dot/Epiphone Sheraton/any descent 335 copy will
deliver an outstanding jazz tone.

-Brian

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
>

> Others will say differently but I agree with you that a 335 simply
cannot make a decent straight ahead jazz tone.
>
>
>
>
> Best
> Brian

[Donnie Loeffler]

> while Ted Nugent's very expensive, sonorous Byrdland sounds like
crap
> in his. and pick playing swings harder than fingerstyle, even as
it's
> limiting for polyphony. You sound like you think everybody
should
> sound the same.

Howdy,

well, for a rock tone, Ted Nugent has a great sound with a archtop,
and so does steve howe. As for fingerstyle vs. pick playing, some
of the greatest swing feel I've ever heard is from Gene Bertoncinni
playing his nylon string fingerstyle.

There's no doubt, that how person's touch effects the sound coming
out of a instrument; but alot of the tone comes from
instrument....if you take these jazz guitarists and make them play
the treble pickup, it's simply not going to sound "right".
Ambercrombie and scofield are a handful of guitarists that either
blend the treble and bass pickup, or all treble pickup to get
the "thin" sound. Something , they used to distinguish themselves
from other players. I think Larry Carlton and lee ritenour use both
pickups alot too on their 335's, it all depends what sound you want -
has nothing to do with feel, touch or chops, it's all do with the
EQ of the pickups and guitar...

If you want a standard "fat" jazz guitar sound, you've got to employ
the bass/neck pickup....usually a humbucker or p-90 will yeild the
best tone in my opinion...that doesn't mean you can't get good tone
from the telecaster single coil neck PU, but it will sound like a
single coil....and yes, there are some folks who can hear the
difference between a single coil telecaster pickup and a standard
humbucker pickup...the P-90 pickups are more difficult to
distinguish.......

OK, not let's go into the tube vs. solid state sound for amps :)

just kidding!

Donnie Loeffler

[Brian Kelly]

Roger,

I totaly agree with you but I must compliment you on being albe to express yur opinion so well.

Brian Kelly

----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Placer
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:34 AM
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Are es-335 capable of "real" jazz tone?

Emily Remler used an ES-330, a different beast with P90's, a trapeze
tp, and fully hollow.
Sheryl Bailey uses a Rick McCurdy guitar, a different beast with ??
pickups and an ebony tp. It's also smaller.

The modern stopbar and '57 Classic equipped Gibson ES-335 is a singular
and iconic guitar. Even the ES-347, billed as a "premium 335" is not a
335. I know, I had one. I could not get a 335 sound out of it!! I
guess what I'm trying to say is that it's hard to dial the 335 sound
out of a 335, just like a Strat or a Tele very reluctantly sheds its
essential character.

So to maximize your 335 for jazz, put 12 gauge flats on it, and see
what you can do with the other variables - pick, amp, etc. But the 335
is what it is. And I would argue that if that's the guitar you like to
play and it feels good, you can get a great jazz tone out of it.

Roger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[will_halligan]

I recently aquired a Jap Fender Jazzmaster and have been amazed at the
tone range. It will go from biting treble (for my soul band,) to real
mellow for jazz gigs. I have traced through the electrics and the very
unusual neck pickup circuit seems to really bring out the mellow in the
pickup.

Another thing - I am not terrified of getting it scratched on stage,
like I am with the Gibsons etc.

Will (Still learning.)

[Sean Williams]

I do not get this thread or especially the statements
here. It seems that it would be more important to
discuss the notes played rather than what machine is
used. I do not think I have ever heard horn players go
on and on about what brand is suited for Jazz
standards. I have the same appreciation hearing Wes
interpret standards vs. a contemporary player like
Mike Stern.

> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Koek Wei Chew"
> <wckoek@...> wrote:
> >
> > Here, I am not saying a 335 sounded bad, nor I
> wanted a more fancy
> > guitar et all.
> > Like what I've stated, my 335 couldn't do REAL
> jazz; I agree that Ed
> > Bickert had good jazz tone with his Tele, but it
> was still different,
> > especially when you do chord melody and such.
> > No matter what it still didn't sounded sonorous
> enough; it is good
> for
> > fusion and modern jazz (Sheryl Bailey, Pat
> Martino, Dave Stryker),
> but
> > not so for STANDARD jazz.

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com

____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.
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[kuboken1]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Sean Williams <scanz777@...>
wrote:

> I do not get this thread or especially the statements
> here. It seems that it would be more important to
> discuss the notes played rather than what machine is
> used. I do not think I have ever heard horn players go
> on and on about what brand is suited for Jazz
> standards.

I don't think the discussion is about what guitar is appropriate for
jazz. This person is looking for a particular sound; a more
traditional jazz guitar sound.

There's nothing wrong with that, and this is a great place to ask
about these things, I think.

Horn players talk about reeds and mouthpieces all the time. You ever
sit around a couple of sax players? fughettaboutit... Sometimes I
wonder if they're just trying to get rid of me.

I've heard singers talk about microphones, PA systems, speakers,
sounds in various venues around town. I've heard pianists discuss
pianos, sounds, which rooms/studios have great pianos, which ones
have great pianos but bad room, etc... on and on.

I'm no gearhead myself (just give something cheap and durable and I'm
happy!), but we can just skip these...

I don't really care to read about "which notes to play...".

Ken

[Sean Williams]

> I don't think the discussion is about what guitar is
> appropriate for jazz. This person is looking for a
> particular sound; a more traditional jazz guitar
> sound.

Sure started sounding like it with the comments. Even
the thread title questions a model's abilities.

> There's nothing wrong with that, and this is a great
> place to ask
> about these things, I think.

I agree, nothing wrong with equipment talk I just
thought it was getting away from the crux of the
biscuit.

> Horn players talk about reeds and mouthpieces all
> the time. You ever
> sit around a couple of sax players?
> fughettaboutit... Sometimes I
> wonder if they're just trying to get rid of me.

Ha, true! However I never heard any horn player say
that one make of a horn is more suited for Jazz
standards than another.

> I've heard singers talk about microphones, PA
> systems, speakers,
> sounds in various venues around town. I've heard
> pianists discuss
> pianos, sounds, which rooms/studios have great
> pianos, which ones
> have great pianos but bad room, etc... on and on.

Same with above.

> I'm no gearhead myself (just give something cheap
> and durable and I'm
> happy!), but we can just skip these...
>
> I don't really care to read about "which notes to
> play...".
>
> Ken

And the thread shows... Just making the point is that
a player makes the guitar and not the other way
around.
Well, off the soapbox and of course we all know what
our opinions are like.

"You can play a shoestring if you're sincere” - John
Coltrane

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com

____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited

[Andrew MacPherson]

The only *real* jazz tone comes from the ES-441 that was manufactured at the
Gibsohn
plant in Kazoo for a peiod of 7 months spanning 1957-58. Only 117 were ever
made.
This is the only period where Isaac Isaacson was the master luthier whilst
the factory was owned by ABC.

The pickups must of course be the ones that were made at home by Steve Lover
in his workshop
that he gave to friends and were never sold in the shop.

You have to have .019 flatwound Thomsfeld strings with a wound 'b' as well
as a wound 'g'.
The tailpieces are of course ebony.

You can achieve *real* jazz tone with a pick although your thumb is
preferable.
If you use a pick you must use a Vegan 3.7mm 99% fat free one.

Munster cables are a nessecity. But only the ones that are made with Oxygen
Free Gold.

Amps? Everybody knows that there is onle ONE amp on which a *real* jazz tone
can be
made. If you do not know this, then you have not yet been invited to be a
part of the Secret Society of Jazz Guitarists yet.

These rare and expensive amps can only be fitted with properly biased tubes
that have been stored at the factory in the
former Soviet Union since 1967. They were manufactured in February of that
year.
Do not even think about the ones that were manufactured in March.

This rig must be played by a person with immaculate technique. Everybody
knows that George Benson's right hand
technique is non existent so even he could not make this setup sound *real*.

When you have all this rig together, as well as know 500 real book tunes in
all 12 keys, then the Secret Society of Jazz Guitarists
*MIGHT* contact you. If they do and you pass the audition, there is a chance
that you may have achieved *real* jazz tone.

Andrew

[kuboken1]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew MacPherson" <andrew@...>

> When you have all this rig together, as well as know 500 real book
tunes in
> all 12 keys, then the Secret Society of Jazz Guitarists
> *MIGHT* contact you. If they do and you pass the audition, there is
a chance
> that you may have achieved *real* jazz tone.
>
> Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Please be advised that your membership in the exclusive Secret
Society of Jazz Guitarists has been terminated effective immediately.

Please return your i.d. card.

SSJG

[kuboken1]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

> Sure started sounding like it with the comments. Even
> the thread title questions a model's abilities.

That's what I thought initially too, but I realized that it was just a
bad choice of words...

> "You can play a shoestring if you're sincere" - John
> Coltrane

Oh, so that's where it comes from. There's a lot of those 'shoestring'
players around here (anything's OK as long as you're sincere).

Ken

[JVeg...@aol.com]

Dear Andrew,

Please be advised that your membership in the exclusive Secret
Society of Jazz Guitarists has been terminated effective immediately.

Please return your i.d. card.

SSJG

You guys are a riot; does he get to keep the decoder ring???

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Rick_Poll]

That's ridiculous. The February tube run that year was contaminated
due to an HVAC failure in the plant. You can't get an adequately
matched pair. You have to make your own tubes.

Rick

[Frawg]

But Rick... everyone knows that you can do better and borrow a pair of
mil spec 1957 6L6GC tubes from that old ham radio operator down the
street who has 50 perfectly matched pairs squirrelled away for his
equally ancient Collins Radio Transmitter. They were the best made
during the cold war.
Jack

Rick_Poll wrote:

>That's ridiculous. The February tube run that year was contaminated
>due to an HVAC failure in the plant. You can't get an adequately
>matched pair. You have to make your own tubes.
>
>Rick
>
>

[Sean Williams]

LOL, pounding the desk funny!

--- Andrew MacPherson <and...@artefactproductions.com>
wrote:

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com

____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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[Rick_Poll]

-The 57 mil specs have the warmth, but not the sparkle.

[Andrew MacPherson]

> Dear Andrew,
>
> Please be advised that your membership in the exclusive Secret
> Society of Jazz Guitarists has been terminated effective immediately.
>
> Please return your i.d. card.
>
> SSJG

My membership has already been terminated unfortunately.
This is because of the incident where I accidently played a
mixolydian scale over a dominant 7th chord -
with not even one altered extension tension note!

Andrew

[stringswinger]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Rick_Poll" <richardipollack@...>
wrote:

>
> That's ridiculous. The February tube run that year was contaminated
> due to an HVAC failure in the plant. You can't get an adequately
> matched pair. You have to make your own tubes.
>
> Rick

Actually Rick, its worse than that. To get "real" jazz tone you have
to be Wes Montgomery. End of story.

[marksrebnik]

'Obi-wan Andrew',

Thanks for having the courage to reveal 'the Truth' about jazz
guitar equipment to 'little grasshoppers' like me.

It's info like this that makes this group such a great resource!!

After you've turned in your ID card, will you still be bound by
rules of the SSJG? If not, could you then reveal what the right amp
to use is??

Don't worry, I wouldn't tell anybody....

BTW, I haven't found those Vegan, fat-free picks yet...my local
guitar store doesn't carry them. Do you think health food stores
might have them??

Thanks!

Mark

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "kuboken1" <kuboken1@...> wrote:
>

> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew MacPherson" <andrew@>
>

[guit...@comcast.net]

>I haven't found those Vegan, fat-free picks yet...my local
guitar store doesn't carry them. Do you think health food stores
might have them??<

Actually, as the are Vegan, as from the Vega starsystem, not Vegan as from the Vegetarian earth, you'll need to get in touch with an alien abductee, but only one abducted by the "Greys."
Brad

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Rick_Poll]

Look it's not for everybody, but I get my sound with a triangular pick
made of moon rock from the Apollo 14 mission. The other missions' moon
rocks sound completely like crap.

[Andrew MacPherson]

> After you've turned in your ID card, will you still be bound by
> rules of the SSJG? If not, could you then reveal what the right amp
> to use is??

The Bruitish Twin.

With the mod where one speaker is taken out and a dummy load
resistor is put in its place...

Mine is for sale on Ebay because I hear that a boutique amp company
has a new amp based on this one called the Evil Twin.
I hear that this is now the hold grail of amps for a *real* jazz tone.
(Unless you are playing chord melodies, which really goes without saying.)

Andrew

[Chris Smart]

Your authentic jazz guitar must also have a NOS Wooly Mamoth
nut. If it does, you can join the inner circle of the Mamoth Nuts,
where upon you will get to wear a silly hat and learn a secret
handshake (oops, grip, I meant grip), and maybe, just maybe, play
your guitar in a parade once a year.

Ok, who wants to draft the curricula for the various degrees which
the secret chiefs shall confer upon the aspirants? By the way,
these secret chiefs all have Italian-sounding names: Gambale,
Satriani, Petrucci, Vai, Martino, Bruno, etc.

--
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[Chris Smart]

Hmm, I got kicked out too, for calling a tune in E major, similar
to a horn player wanting something in Bb or Eb. Apparently, that
cannot happen at SSJG meetings. And, you will have your hands
amputated on the spot if you pull a capo out of your case.

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[Chris Smart]

At 09:24 PM 11/10/2006, you wrote:

>Look it's not for everybody, but I get my sound with a triangular
>pick
>made of moon rock from the Apollo 14 mission. The other missions'
>moon
>rocks sound completely like crap.

What? You actually believe the US went to the moon??

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[Frawg]

Thought that the evil twin was the one that uses the detachable subbass
low rider framedriver and a knock off of the original Ohm A speakers to
give absolute transparency throughout the spectrum... if any tone is
left, you can hear it well...
-J

[Andrew MacPherson]

> Actually Rick, its worse than that. To get "real" jazz tone you have
> to be Wes Montgomery. End of story.

My point exactly!!!! Brilliant.

Andrew
(Who achieves a *real* jazz tone with two computers -
a Variax and a Roland Cube.)

[JVeg...@aol.com]

You guys are all out of control. I quit, I'm gonna dust off my Marshall
stack and 1950s strat, along with the cast-off Hendrix mystery pedal, put in an
Eric Johnson-approved 9v battery, face it towards the full moon, and get the
killingest jazz tone anyone's ever seen (but not heard).

Seriously, it's good to see some good-natured bantering and, where can I get
some of those NOS tubes??? Will they work in my Roland Cube 60?

On a related topic, I've been listening to Pat Martino's "Remember" CD, and
really enjoying the tone, and the vibe. I'm especially digging Scott
Robinson's drumming; he's been Pat's drummer for a few years now, and when I first
heard him, his playing didn't do much for me. These days, though, he's come
into his own, and tasty it is. Dave Kikoski & John Pattitucci are no slouches
either, and I'd be willing to bet Wes is smiling big-time from that big
bandstand in the sky.

Be cool, people,
JV

Juan Vega

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frawg]

Going back to the serious:

Earlier note about Dave Stryker. He uses an ES 347. He can get the
various hollow and rich tones bcuz the P/Us are split coil and
switchable to get phasing effects. IIRC, is this not a feature BB King's
"Lucille" as well?

Jack

[dimishedchordcrazy]

...not sure what "real" jazz tone is, but there is nothing like a
335 with the tone rolled back to about 4 on the neck pickup through
a good Fender tube amp.

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Placer" <rpguitar@...>
wrote:
>
> Emily Remler used an ES-330, a different beast with P90's, a
trapeze
> tp, and fully hollow.
> Sheryl Bailey uses a Rick McCurdy guitar, a different beast with ??
> pickups and an ebony tp. It's also smaller.
>
> The modern stopbar and '57 Classic equipped Gibson ES-335 is a
singular
> and iconic guitar. Even the ES-347, billed as a "premium 335" is
not a
> 335. I know, I had one. I could not get a 335 sound out of it!!
I
> guess what I'm trying to say is that it's hard to dial the 335
sound
> out of a 335, just like a Strat or a Tele very reluctantly sheds
its
> essential character.
>
> So to maximize your 335 for jazz, put 12 gauge flats on it, and see
> what you can do with the other variables - pick, amp, etc. But
the 335
> is what it is. And I would argue that if that's the guitar you
like to
> play and it feels good, you can get a great jazz tone out of it.
>
> Roger

[Cliff]

Andrew MacPherson wrote:
> > Actually Rick, its worse than that. To get "real" jazz tone you have
> > to be Wes Montgomery. End of story.

That could soon be a thing of the past.

I hear Jim Dunlop have obtained dna and "Montgomery Thumbs", grown on
the back of lab rats, will be available soon for transplant!

Cliff.