[jazz_guitar] 24.75" v. 25.5" scale length

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Rod Ellard

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Dec 29, 2012, 6:35:26 PM12/29/12
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I find that I am much more comfortable with a 24.75" scale length (my Sadowsky, a Joe Pass I rented, a Chinese Les Paul) than the 25.5" scale length on, for example, my Fenders. And, frankly, a much better player (at least in my estimation). Does anyone find that the scale length makes that much of a difference? Or is this all in my head?
 
Rod

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John Amato

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Dec 30, 2012, 1:23:22 PM12/30/12
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Rod,

Having large hands, which is neither a blessing nor a detriment, one learns how/when/where to compensate in and and around various neck scales Personally, I prefer 25.5" scales, but have learnt to deal (compensate) with shorter scales -- about half of my guitar collection is within the 24" family. 

For soling-wise via scales, arps, etc, I'd say the shorter scale would help facilitate a more rapid execution, while the larger scale necks are easier for chord solos if one has larger hands -- for me this is the general rule. 

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 29, 2012, at 6:35 PM, Rod Ellard <e11...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

 

I find that I am much more comfortable with a 24.75" scale length (my Sadowsky, a Joe Pass I rented, a Chinese Les Paul) than the 25.5" scale length on, for example, my Fenders. And, frankly, a much better player (at least in my estimation). Does anyone find that the scale length makes that much of a difference? Or is this all in my head?
 
Rod

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rguitarjj

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Dec 30, 2012, 6:53:07 PM12/30/12
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For many years I played the 24.75. Every time I touched a 25.5 it seemed uncomfortably big.

Then, recently, I tried a Fender Stratocaster. I had played with another guitar player who used one and sounded so good I got GAS.

The neck was so thin and it was strung so light that the longer scale felt fine.

So, I think it's not just the scale length, but it's also several aspects of the geometry of the guitar. It's the width, thickness and curvature of the neck and it's also the bridge location. That last point might seem odd, but if the bridge is too far from the end pin, the nut may be uncomfortably far to the left. At that point, with your arm stretching leftward, the longer distances in the first few frets stand out more.

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Robert Cole

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Dec 30, 2012, 7:20:41 PM12/30/12
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I have done research on this subject. 

Must guitar web sites say that the strings on 24.75" scale length guitars require LESS finger pressure to play notes properly compared to the
same strings on 25.5" scale length guitars when both are tuned exactly the same. They have assumed this to be true because the exact same tuning of the strings on a 25.5" scale length guitar require MORE tension to reach the exact same notes as compared to the same tuning of the strings on a 24.75" scale length guitar.

I set up my 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar with the EXACT same strings as my 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. Then I
adjusted ALL of the string heights of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar to perfectly match the string heights of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. So, both guitars had the EXACT same strings and the EXACT same string heights.

I used my SAME fingers to push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. The results seemed as though the force on my fingers were less on the Stratocaster than on the ES-175.

This is the opposite of what the guitar web sites claimed. I then realized that in order to properly determine the TRUTH about their assumption
I would create an absolutely accurate String-Finger Force Test Gauge. My "invention" utilizes a VERY light gauge spring attached to a VERY
 thin and light nail. The "spring-nail" is connected to a very thin piece of plastic for accurate support. My "invention" works perfectly. I used it to
push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. I used my uniquely
Upgraded Continuity Tester to be able to tell exactly when there was initial contact of a string with the fret. I then wrote down each number
from my String-Finger Force Test Gauge which determines the relative distance that the "spring-nail" moved. 

The results were COMPLETELY consistent. 

It took MORE force to push down the strings of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar than it did to push down the strings of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar.

This result suggests that Fretboard finger comfort can be more positive on a 25.5" scale length guitar than on a 24.75" scale length guitar assuming that everything else is the same.

I hope that this research information is interesting to everybody!

And, it suggests that you CAN NOT believe everything that the "guitar experts" say on the internet! 

P.S. Remember Bob. This research is ACCURATE!!!         

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Sheryl Bailey

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Dec 30, 2012, 12:47:49 PM12/30/12
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absolutely! the smaller scale sings more, and for those of us with small hands, is much more playable. long scale is great if you're playing in E and A all night I suppose....
SB

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Robert Cole

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Dec 30, 2012, 8:25:54 PM12/30/12
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I have done research on this subject. 

Must guitar web sites say that the strings on 24.75" scale length guitars require LESS finger pressure to play notes properly compared to the
same strings on 25.5" scale length guitars when both are tuned exactly the same. They have assumed this to be true because the exact same tuning of the strings on a 25.5" scale length guitar require MORE tension to reach the exact same notes as compared to the same tuning of the strings on a 24.75" scale length guitar.

I set up my 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar with the EXACT same strings as my 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. Then I
adjusted ALL of the string heights of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar to perfectly match the string heights of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. So, both guitars had the EXACT same strings and the EXACT same string heights.

I used my SAME fingers to push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. The results seemed as though the force on my fingers were less on the Stratocaster than on the ES-175.

This is the opposite of what the guitar web sites claimed. I then realized that in order to properly determine the TRUTH about their assumption
I would create an absolutely accurate String-Finger Force Test Gauge. My "invention" utilizes a VERY light gauge spring attached to a VERY
 thin and light nail. The "spring-nail" is connected to a very thin piece of plastic for accurate support. My "invention" works perfectly. I used it to
push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. I used my uniquely
Upgraded Continuity Tester to be able to tell exactly when there was initial contact of a string with the fret. I then wrote down each number
from my String-Finger Force Test Gauge which determines the relative distance that the "spring-nail" moved. 

The results were COMPLETELY consistent. 

It took MORE force to push down the strings of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar than it did to push down the strings of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar.

This result suggests that Fretboard finger comfort can be more positive on a 25.5" scale length guitar than on a 24.75" scale length guitar assuming that everything else is the same.

I hope that this research information is interesting to everybody!

And, it suggests that you CAN NOT believe everything that the "guitar experts" say on the internet! 

P.S. Remember Bob. This research is ACCURATE!!! *:D big grin     






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Robert Cole

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Dec 30, 2012, 3:14:47 PM12/30/12
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I have done research on this subject. 

Must guitar web sites say that the strings on 24.75" scale length guitars require LESS finger pressure to play notes properly compared to the
same strings on 25.5" scale length guitars when both are tuned exactly the same. They have assumed this to be true because the exact same tuning of the strings on a 25.5" scale length guitar require MORE tension to reach the exact same notes as compared to the same tuning of the strings on a 24.75" scale length guitar.

I set up my 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar with the EXACT same strings as my 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. Then I
adjusted ALL of the string heights of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar to perfectly match the string heights of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. So, both guitars had the EXACT same strings and the EXACT same string heights.

I used my SAME fingers to push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. The results seemed as though the force on my fingers were less on the Stratocaster than on the ES-175.

This is the opposite of what the guitar web sites claimed. I then realized that in order to properly determine the TRUTH about their assumption
I would create an absolutely accurate String-Finger Force Test Gauge. My "invention" utilizes a VERY light gauge spring attached to a VERY
 thin and light nail. The "spring-nail" is connected to a very thin piece of plastic for accurate support. My "invention" works perfectly. I used it to
push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. I used my uniquely
Upgraded Continuity Tester to be able to tell exactly when there was initial contact of a string with the fret. I then wrote down each number
from my String-Finger Force Test Gauge which determines the relative distance that the "spring-nail" moved. 

The results were COMPLETELY consistent. 

It took MORE force to push down the strings of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar than it did to push down the strings of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar.

This result suggests that Fretboard finger comfort can be more positive on a 25.5" scale length guitar than on a 24.75" scale length guitar assuming that everything else is the same.

I hope that this research information is interesting to everybody!

And, it suggests that you CAN NOT believe everything that the "guitar experts" say on the internet! 

P.S. Remember Bob. This research is ACCURATE!!!         

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dpkingbluesguitar

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Dec 31, 2012, 12:40:38 PM12/31/12
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'And, it suggests that you CAN NOT believe
everything that the "guitar experts" say on the internet!'

'You can believe everything you read on the interwebs.'
'Aristotle'

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Chris Smart

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Dec 31, 2012, 10:07:04 AM12/31/12
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it's interesting, but perhaps next time,
eliminate tons of variables by constructing a
24.75" scale strat replica with exactly the same
wood and hardware as your 25.5" scale strat.
You're still comparing apples to oranges there.
And, did you make sure the neck bow was set
exactly the same between the two instruments?
Often, a 1/8 turn of the trus rod will make a
huge difference in perceived stiffness.

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and mastering: http://www.ctsmastering.com
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BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
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rguitarjj

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Dec 31, 2012, 3:21:59 PM12/31/12
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Very interesting. Since I have recently switched from 24.75 to 25.5 because of arthritis, my impression is similar to your research.

That said, all things aren't equal.

It is true that the longer scale requires more tension to tune the string to the same pitch.

BUT, that doesn't mean that deflecting the string to fret a note or do a bend requires more force on the longer scale.

In fact, the force required for deflection also depends on the non-vibrating length of string -- meaning, the portion past the bridge and the portion past the nut. That means that a stud tailpiece right next to the bridge affects things differently than a trapeze tailpiece which requires a long run of string after the bridge. Same argument for those locking nuts and bridges.

The longer the overall length of string, the more length there is to stretch. So stretching is easier.

Now, you do pay for the ease of deflection in that the pitch doesn't change as much for a given amount of deflection.


--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Robert Cole <rmcgmn15@...> wrote:
>
> I have done research on this subject. 
>
> Must guitar web sites say that the strings on 24.75" scale length guitars require LESS finger pressure to play notes properly compared to the
> same strings on 25.5" scale length guitars when both are tuned exactly the same. They have assumed this to be true because the exact same tuning of the strings on a 25.5" scale length guitar require MORE tension to reach the exact same notes as compared to the same tuning of the strings on a 24.75" scale length guitar.
>
> I set up my 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar with the EXACT same strings as my 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. Then I
> adjusted ALL of the string heights of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar to perfectly match the string heights of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar. So, both guitars had the EXACT same strings and the EXACT same string heights.
>
> I used my SAME fingers to push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. The results seemed as though the force on my fingers were less on the Stratocaster than on the ES-175.
>
> This is the opposite of what the guitar web sites claimed. I then realized that in order to properly determine the TRUTH about their assumption
> I would create an absolutely accurate String-Finger Force Test Gauge. My "invention" utilizes a VERY light gauge spring attached to a VERY
>  thin and light nail. The "spring-nail" is connected to a very thin piece of plastic for accurate support. My "invention" works perfectly. I used it to
> push down the SAME strings of each guitar to properly contact the SAME proper note metal fret locations on each guitar. I used my uniquely
> Upgraded Continuity Tester to be able to tell exactly when there was initial contact of a string with the fret. I then wrote down each number
> from my String-Finger Force Test Gauge which determines the relative distance that the "spring-nail" moved. 
>
> The results were COMPLETELY consistent. 
>
> It took MORE force to push down the strings of the 24.75" scale length Gibson ES-175 guitar than it did to push down the strings of the 25.5" scale length Fender Stratocaster guitar.
>
> This result suggests that Fretboard finger comfort can be more positive on a 25.5" scale length guitar than on a 24.75" scale length guitar assuming that everything else is the same.
>
> I hope that this research information is interesting to everybody!
>
> And, it suggests that you CAN NOT believe everything that the "guitar experts" say on the internet! 
>
> P.S. Remember Bob. This research is ACCURATE!!!      
>
>

> ________________________________
>

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Brian Kelly

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Dec 31, 2012, 9:09:26 AM12/31/12
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Robert,

You are correct as far as I know. You didn’t need to do all of this research either. It is long since been well known that it is easier to bend strings on a long scale neck as opposed to a short one.

Brian

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Bob Hansmann

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Dec 31, 2012, 1:10:59 PM12/31/12
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On 12/31/2012 12:40 PM, dpkingbluesguitar wrote:
> 'And, it suggests that you CAN NOT believe
> everything that the "guitar experts" say on the internet!'

Well, it suggests, as Chris posted, that there are more variables then
just string length to consider. Al Carruth, who is one of the premier
luthiers in the country, performed similar tests on classic guitars,
taking far more variables into consideration, and came up with different
results. It doesn't take a 'guitar expert' to know the basic physics
that a longer string requires more tension to reach the same pitch as a
shorter string.

It also suggests that not all who claim to be 'guitar experts' actually
are, speaking of Paul. Were we speaking of Paul?... :-)

best,
Bobby

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johnre...@gmail.com

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Dec 31, 2012, 7:16:24 PM12/31/12
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There’s been extensive discussion of scale length on classical
forums. Although some concerns are different, relating to technique
and style of composition, many questions are the same.

Nylon-string instruments for adults tend to have been 640 and 660 mm
scales, although I’ve heard of 635 and 665. 660 was something of a
standard 30 years ago or so, and 650 is pretty much the standard now.
Discussion of scale length as it affects tone, playability and string
tension can be found at

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=7
(mostly experienced players)

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/index.php (large forum with
wide range of experience among players)

https://groups.google.com:443/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/
rec.music.classical.guitar (usenet group, wide range of players)

John R.


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Robert Cole

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Jun 1, 2013, 9:00:29 PM6/1/13
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I hope that you all go to hear my new solo chord melody arrangement of  "Summer Breeze". 

I appreciate you comments, opinions and questions.

Go to:   https://soundcloud.com/chordmelodynotation  or if you prefer, enter ChordMelodyNotation on Google and click on the first result.

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Robert Cole

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Aug 7, 2013, 3:09:54 PM8/7/13
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Hi Everybody,

Please let me know if any of you like this guitar song arrangement of  "Dreamsville". 

Would any of you want to learn how to play it?

http://soundcloud.com/chordmelodynotation    If you don't want to click on this then go to Google and search for:  chordmelodynotation/soundcloud

Please respond to make me happy.  

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robert brunet

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Aug 7, 2013, 8:15:03 PM8/7/13
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Hey man my name is rob too lol .Well nice arrangement indeed . Steel stings ! ( i know a little) Rob !

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Paul Sametz

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Aug 8, 2013, 12:04:36 PM8/8/13
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Oh yeah, I like it, the tone is nice, the chords are dreamy. I would like to learn how to play it. Got notation for it?
Ammo

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Robert Cole

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Aug 8, 2013, 1:30:54 PM8/8/13
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Here is a new song that NOBODY has ever heard yet.

It is called  "Pounding My Heart"

Go to       http://soundcloud.com/chordmelodynotation      to hear it.   

Does anybody like this one?

Thanks

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