[jazz_guitar] Question about Cold Duck time (Ed Harris)

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jose

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Feb 15, 2013, 2:40:11 PM2/15/13
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Hi everybody:

I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven´t been able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,

Regards,

jose

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Bob

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Feb 15, 2013, 7:25:34 PM2/15/13
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The New Real Book shows it as DbMaj7 EbMaj7 F7. It's just an unusual cadence. I'm not sure what you mean by Part B, as it's just a 12-bar tune, sort of a blues.

Bob



--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "jose" wrote:
>
> Hi everybody:
>
> I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven´t been able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,
>
> Regards,
>
> jose
>

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John Amato

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Feb 15, 2013, 7:59:56 PM2/15/13
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Jose,


Key of F, my chart has DbMaj7 at the B.

You could think if it as a substitute for Bbm7 (or Bbm9) ... coming right from the Bb7, followed by the EbMaj7 (lydian) followed by F7 (Mixolydian) ....

For those measures at B that go to DbMaj7 -- you have a few choices for soloing -- 1)Db Ionian (Db Major) or 2) Db Dorian (Ab Major), 3) Db Lydian (Ab Major), 4) Bb Aeolian (Db Major) ...

 U have my preferred choice for soloing here, but I don't want to influence prematurely -- try them all ...

BTW ... what's cool is you can treat the F7 as Cm7 and go chromatic from the DbMaj7 to Cm7 (F7) ,,, Also, treating the DnMaj7 as Bbm9 you can go chromatic to B7#11 for the F7 ....



On Feb 15, 2013, at 2:40 PM, jose wrote:

 

Hi everybody:

I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven´t been able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,

Regards,

jose


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Brian Kelly

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Feb 15, 2013, 6:22:43 PM2/15/13
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> I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven´t been
> able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the
> begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,

Jose’,

I don’t exactly understand what your question is.

Brian

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Brad Rabuchin

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Feb 15, 2013, 7:14:19 PM2/15/13
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On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 11:40 AM, jose josema...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven't been
> able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the
> begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,

What key are you playing it in? the standard key is Fm and in that key I
don't believe there is a Dma7 in the song

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robbyroiter

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Feb 15, 2013, 9:18:53 PM2/15/13
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I think song is technically in F ma, not in F mi, in the same sense an F blues is in F, not F min- the main chord is F7#9 based on the melody.

F min scale notes play an important role however, & the Db & Eb chords can be seen as derived from them,

In terms of analyzing the meaning of the Db maj7, it can be seen as bVI borrowed from the parallel key of F minor.

Typically in this kind of progression, e.g., Song for my Father, can be modified to a Db7 chord (either C or B, as 7 or b7 of Db, fits w/ F blues scale, which ) & the Eb chord is more normally an Eb7, which uses Db, part of F min scale. In Cold Duck Time, Harris uses an Eb maj7, with the note D falling outside the mode implied by most of the rest of the tune.

Listening to what I think is the original version, I think Harris uses mostly blues scale ideas on the F7 Bb7 & Db ma7 parts & uses the note D over the Eb ma7 in F maj pentatonic ways leading to F7.

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akmbirch

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Feb 15, 2013, 11:33:18 PM2/15/13
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--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "jose" wrote:
>

> Hi everybody:
>
> I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven't been
> able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the
> begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,

Cold Duck Time really is 12-bar F blues, the chords alternate between F7 & Bb7 with Bar 9 DbMaj7 and Bar 10 EbMaj7.

One way to think of DbMaj7 is as a modal interchange chord borrowed from the parallel F Aeolian mode. The Eb Maj7 occurs in F Mixolydian mode so it takes the tune back to the tonic F7.

A nice simple, classic tune.

--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger
http://www.alisdair.com

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jose

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Feb 16, 2013, 12:33:12 AM2/16/13
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--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" wrote:
>
> > I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven´t been


> > able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the
> > begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,
>

> Jose’,
>
> I don’t exactly understand what your question is.

The question is where the DbMaj7chord comes from and how to treat it for soloing
Jose

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Jim Mings

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Feb 16, 2013, 1:05:53 AM2/16/13
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Jose, The way we have long played this tune is as is:
F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
Db modal///Eb modal/// F7#9/// ////
This works.
Jim


--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "jose" wrote:
>

> Hi everybody:
>
> I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven�t been able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,
>
> Regards,
>
> jose
>

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.

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Jim Mings

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Feb 16, 2013, 1:24:09 AM2/16/13
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In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "akmbirch" wrote:
Cold Duck Time really is 12-bar F blues, the chords alternate between F7 & Bb7 with Bar 9 DbMaj7 and Bar 10 EbMaj7.
One way to think of DbMaj7 is as a modal interchange chord borrowed from the parallel F Aeolian mode. The Eb Maj7 occurs in F Mixolydian mode so it takes the tune back to the tonic F7.
A nice simple, classic tune.

Yes, I love these simple classic tunes. The Blues dominates. Alisdair, i like the expression "modal interchange." I understand "Borrowed" but i try not to think that way in real time. In changes this slow you can think root movement and just drop off the table...In BIAB I would write Db2, I think. These are what i call "hollow" changes. Three and seven are avoid notes or to be used carefully. Let the blues sail through and interfere if you dare. ;-)
Jim

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Brian Kelly

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Feb 16, 2013, 1:25:29 AM2/16/13
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> Jose, The way we have long played this tune is as is:
> F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
> F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
> Db modal///Eb modal/// F7#9/// ////

Jim,

What does modal mean in this application? Also don’t you think that the last F dominant chord should be a straight F7.

Brian

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dpkingbluesguitar

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Feb 16, 2013, 6:59:24 AM2/16/13
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>
> The question is where the DbMaj7chord comes from and how to treat it for soloing

That chord is the iv chord in first inversion. Just like The Thrill is Gone Bars 9 and ten are iv V not V IV. The way to solo is hit that chord hard so as everyone can hear the change. Let's compare the change iv v. Bbminb5 is Bb Db F Ab, Db maj 7 is Db F Ab C. Mikey Baker used to call this sub a minor ninth. I do this same thing in the Trill is Gone. Just don't day dream over the 9 and 10 bars. I guess the Eb maj 7 is a sub for c min. I will have to check this tune. We need some more hip tunes at the Sunday gig.

Hope this helps.

Music for life.

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jazzster_01

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Feb 16, 2013, 8:42:05 AM2/16/13
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--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Mings" wrote:
>
> Jose, The way we have long played this tune is as is:
> F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
> F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
> Db modal///Eb modal/// F7#9/// ////

I play a Db6/9 then Eb6/9 and that sounds decent...
John

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John Amato

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Feb 16, 2013, 10:21:13 AM2/16/13
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Jose,


If you're looking for a sub for DbMaj7 I'd go with F Aeolian (Fm derived from the 6th degree of Ab Major).


On Feb 15, 2013, at 2:40 PM, jose wrote:

 

Hi everybody:

I am playing this tune Cold Duck time with my trio, but haven´t been able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the begining of part B. Will appreciate your help with this,

Regards,

jose


__._,_.___
.

__,_._,___

pecpec

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Feb 16, 2013, 11:26:37 AM2/16/13
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"haven´t been able to analize what is the meaning of the Dmaj7 chord at the begining of part B."

The way I would analyze it it that the Db puts the song in a kind-of limbo state for the ears - and most typically would fall chromatically down to C on it's way back to F. However a whole step-wise move up to Eb, then to F is a not uncommon progression, albeit less common than cycle of fifths or chromatic movements. I wouldn't necessarily think of subbing anything for the Db, because that more than anything gives the tune it's distinct character, but I might think in terms of Cm7 for the Eb for variety during repeated choruses.

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JVeg...@aol.com

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Feb 16, 2013, 12:10:48 PM2/16/13
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Here we go again...  Why not just try playing different notes/rhythms over the *&*$@# changes, and listening/playing what works?  Jeez...  You can hang on Eb to F all through the bridge changers, and those two notes will do the job for you.  Thinking/playing in minor keys, etc will completely take the hipness out of the song (unless you really know what you're doing).
 
And, to split hairs, calling this song a "blues" isn't accurate either; I would refer to it as "a vamp with a bridge".  Finally, #9 is a bit harsh and tense to these old ears, I prefer 13th chords for the vamp.  Great tune.
 
Cheers,
JV
 
Juan Vega
 

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Scott R Dercks

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Feb 16, 2013, 1:11:25 PM2/16/13
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Here we go again...  Why not just try playing different notes/rhythms over the *&*$@# changes, and listening/playing what works?  Jeez...  You can hang on Eb to F all through the bridge changers, and those two notes will do the job for you.  Thinking/playing in minor keys, etc will completely take the hipness out of the song (unless you really know what you're doing).
 
And, to split hairs, calling this song a "blues" isn't accurate either; I would refer to it as "a vamp with a bridge".  Finally, #9 is a bit harsh and tense to these old ears, I prefer 13th chords for the vamp.  Great tune.
 
Cheers,
JV
 
Juan Vega
 


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John Amato

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Feb 16, 2013, 3:13:54 PM2/16/13
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"Here we go again" is right ... Without really asking a complete sentence full of what he really wants to know about the changes ... like always, we respond in good faith with tons of theory and "Good" advice to an almost phantom enquirer --- don't get me wrong, but we've been down this path many times ...


I posted my last advise on this one ..



On Feb 16, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Scott R Dercks wrote:

 

Here we go again...  Why not just try playing different notes/rhythms over the *&*$@# changes, and listening/playing what works?  Jeez...  You can hang on Eb to F all through the bridge changers, and those two notes will do the job for you.  Thinking/playing in minor keys, etc will completely take the hipness out of the song (unless you really know what you're doing).
 
And, to split hairs, calling this song a "blues" isn't accurate either; I would refer to it as "a vamp with a bridge".  Finally, #9 is a bit harsh and tense to these old ears, I prefer 13th chords for the vamp.  Great tune.
 
Cheers,
JV
 
Juan Vega
 


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____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
53/YO Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
ConsumerLifestyleMag.com


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pecpec

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Feb 16, 2013, 3:31:53 PM2/16/13
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John and Juan, you guys are usually very patient, and consistent with responding to questions that have been asked before. I've been in and out of this group for over ten years, and there simply are no new topics under the sun, really. Please don't discourage newcomers, or those with less experience dropping in with questions. Or is this group supposed to be closed to a set of regulars? Seriously, if you are annoyed by seeing a question that may have been covered, even recently, why not just chill and hold your posting?

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Jim Mings

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Feb 16, 2013, 5:35:50 PM2/16/13
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Brian,

I kinda like the other cat that said 6/9 chords, sounds in fourths, and so on. What I mean, I think, by using the word modal is that those chords should stay "harmonically neutral." I didn't look at a chart to see, but i did play along. I also agree with the grease line. It's a blues thang. The Db, (maybe think Ab6/9/Db to get my drift: same thing) and Eb are in the harmonic axis of F blues. I played with Eddie Harris a few times. We got on real well. He used a harmonizer a lot (in major thirds, if i remember correctly) so he liked the harmonically neutral approach. :-)It was hard playing standards with him. Freedom Jazz Dance was easier, except for that super bad head.
This is an area of jazz that is hard to describe. A lot of tunes follow the guide tones, but many don't. This is where the slip sliding, side stepping approach is the way to go. All roads lead to the blues. This is not conventional blues, but it does have twelve bars. One can fill that space in many different ways. But, if it quacks like a duck, it might be a duck.

Jim



--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" wrote:
>

> > Jose, The way we have long played this tune is as is:
> > F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
> > F7#9///Bb7///F7#9///Bb7///
> > Db modal///Eb modal/// F7#9/// ////
>
> Jim,
>

> What does modal mean in this application? Also don’t you think that the last F dominant chord should be a straight F7.
>
> Brian
>

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JVeg...@aol.com

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Feb 16, 2013, 6:09:35 PM2/16/13
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Hi Peter,
 
I apologize if my post was misconstrued.  I wasn't "annoyed" as much as I was somewhat frustrated because this is a pretty basic jazz tune (in my opinion), and once again, people start talking about keys, scales, and like that w/o just taking the time to try playing different things over the changes in question, in order to "discover" some possibilities.  I wasn't trying to "discourage" anybody; in fact, I was trying to "encourage" learning by trying out stuff, and I even suggested an approach.
 
Knowing all the scale/chord/theory in the world isn't going to help someone blow competently over a tune like "Giant Steps" for example, which is pretty formulaic.  One of the things I really dig about Eddie Harris' tunes is that they groove a bunch, and (for the most part) the changes aren't too hard to cop, especially for beginners.  I've used this tune when coaching jazz combos as a way to introduce vamps and a bit more.  The changes move nicely together and encourage playing that helps beginners "swing" and "groove" without having to deal with too much harmony.  If I were going to "dissect" the tune further, I'd say that the melody is composed of "call and response" motifs, with the melodic tension released in measures 9 & 10; maybe somebody will find that helpful.
 
Anybody who knows me knows I don't mind answering the most basic of questions over & over again; that's part of my job as an educator.  That said, I'm also not the biggest fan of "academic" approaches to jazz; that might make for great conversation, but it completely contradicts the history of the music and can cause more confusion that help, especially for newer players.  I was trying to take the approach in a different direction, is all.
 
Oh, and fwiw, I use DbMaj7 in measure 9 and  Bb/C to F13 in measure 10, try those.  The F13 is the Eb-A-D-F grip on stgs 5,4,3 & 2, and the other two chords have 2nd string 6th fret F in the top voice as well, making for nice voice leading and a hip sound.
 
Cheers,
JV
 
Juan Vega

 
 
In a message dated 2/16/2013 2:06:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, peter...@gmail.com writes:

John and Juan, you guys are usually very patient, and consistent with responding to questions that have been asked before. I've been in and out of this group for over ten years, and there simply are no new topics under the sun, really. Please don't discourage newcomers, or those with less experience dropping in with questions. Or is this group supposed to be closed to a set of regulars? Seriously, if you are annoyed by seeing a question that may have been covered, even recently, why not just chill and hold your posting?

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pecpec

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Feb 16, 2013, 6:31:59 PM2/16/13
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Juan - really appreciate your response. I wasn't thinking about all the replies to Jose - more was thinking about Jose and his desire to make some logical sense of Dbmaj7 in this context - which might seem basic to many but not to all that tune in here. My response to Jose probably didn't help much - but it does reflect the way I think. Anyway - appreciate your specific tips here and your contributions to this group in general - same to John Amato.

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John Amato

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Feb 16, 2013, 6:37:37 PM2/16/13
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Peter,


Thank you for the heads up, but I'm a bit put off by posters who don't have the decent courtesy to answer responses that would shed more light on their question but leave us hanging -- or even shed light on their queries that sometimes are quite unrevealing or at least obliging to help themselves by providing what the really want ... (also, a simple 'thank you' would be nice -- although not expected or really 'done for' ... but people do take their time and experience to answer sometimes posts that are not very clear in the least ....)



On Feb 16, 2013, at 3:31 PM, pecpec wrote:

 

John and Juan, you guys are usually very patient, and consistent with responding to questions that have been asked before. I've been in and out of this group for over ten years, and there simply are no new topics under the sun, really. Please don't discourage newcomers, or those with less experience dropping in with questions. Or is this group supposed to be closed to a set of regulars? Seriously, if you are annoyed by seeing a question that may have been covered, even recently, why not just chill and hold your posting?


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pecpec

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Feb 16, 2013, 6:59:57 PM2/16/13
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--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Thank you for the heads up, but I'm a bit put off by posters who don't have the decent courtesy to answer responses that would shed more light on their question but leave us hanging -- or even shed light on their queries that sometimes are quite unrevealing or at least obliging to help themselves by providing what the really want ... (also, a simple 'thank you' would be nice -- although not expected or really 'done for' ... but people do take their time and experience to answer sometimes posts that are not very clear in the least ....)
>

Patience is a virtue. And no bullshit - the lack of it is a big problem of mine, so I guess recognize it when I see it.

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dpkingbluesguitar

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Feb 16, 2013, 7:39:55 PM2/16/13
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'Oh, and fwiw, I use DbMaj7 in measure 9 and Bb/C to F13 in measure 10,


try those. The F13 is the Eb-A-D-F grip on stgs 5,4,3 & 2, and the other two
chords have 2nd string 6th fret F in the top voice as well, making for

nice voice leading and a hip sound.'

I am going to use this very turn around the next time I play the thrill is gone. Even up to the f13. Stopping on the One with a major then going to harmonic minor makes it sound really latin to me. Then I'll lay down the standard BB. Thanks.

Music for life.

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John Amato

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Feb 16, 2013, 8:21:26 PM2/16/13
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Peter,


I've learned not to pray for patience because a trying circumstance or arduous situation may befall to answer that prayer ...


  
On Feb 16, 2013, at 6:59 PM, pecpec wrote:

 

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, John Amato wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Thank you for the heads up, but I'm a bit put off by posters who don't have the decent courtesy to answer responses that would shed more light on their question but leave us hanging -- or even shed light on their queries that sometimes are quite unrevealing or at least obliging to help themselves by providing what the really want ... (also, a simple 'thank you' would be nice -- although not expected or really 'done for' ... but people do take their time and experience to answer sometimes posts that are not very clear in the least ....)
>

Patience is a virtue. And no bullshit - the lack of it is a big problem of mine, so I guess recognize it when I see it.


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jose

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Feb 16, 2013, 10:31:52 PM2/16/13
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Hi; I want to apologize sincerely for not responding before to John and the other members who had shared your knowledge and experience to help me without even knowing who I am. Few people, specially among musicians, are willing to do that. The info received is a lot, and it amazes me how many different ways are to aproach a tune that at first seems relatively simple.

Until now Ive been soloing over Cold Duck Time mainly with F blues scale motives over the grove, and for the bridge I play around chord tones on DbMaj7 and EbMaj7 going back to F blues scale, always trying to keep the rythm funky. Know I am going to try other aproaches, and add more color to the solo and to the trio thanks to the vast info received from you guys.

I deeply appreciate all your responses and again apologize for not responding before (I had gigs thursday and Friday plus the day job so today is that I have time to write this)

Regards from Panama

jose

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John Amato

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Feb 17, 2013, 8:28:29 AM2/17/13
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Hi Jose,


Good to hear from you, and good to know you actually exist more than a DbMaj7 ... hope the information you asked for helped ... 


On Feb 16, 2013, at 10:31 PM, jose wrote:

 

Hi; I want to apologize sincerely for not responding before to John and the other members who had shared your knowledge and experience to help me without even knowing who I am. Few people, specially among musicians, are willing to do that. The info received is a lot, and it amazes me how many different ways are to aproach a tune that at first seems relatively simple.

Until now Ive been soloing over Cold Duck Time mainly with F blues scale motives over the grove, and for the bridge I play around chord tones on DbMaj7 and EbMaj7 going back to F blues scale, always trying to keep the rythm funky. Know I am going to try other aproaches, and add more color to the solo and to the trio thanks to the vast info received from you guys.

I deeply appreciate all your responses and again apologize for not responding before (I had gigs thursday and Friday plus the day job so today is that I have time to write this)

Regards from Panama

jose


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Brian Kelly

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Feb 18, 2013, 1:25:44 AM2/18/13
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Jim,

Thanks.

Brian

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