[jazz_guitar] Disappearance of Scales & Chords
Matt Stati
Pentatonic playing I realize is usually extremely simple relative to general jazz playing, but I'm wondering whether I can expect the same "evolution" to happen, and how experienced jazz players intellectualize the theory while they are playing. Or, are they so familiar with their instrument that they know the places they want to be (on the fretboard) and follow their ear entirely when practicing (and then performing)?
Here's the question I have in a nutshell: When I'm watching Joe Pass, and he plays an amazing sequence of notes with chords, etc., if you had asked him seconds after he played it, "Joe, tell me the scale, mode, chords, etc., you JUST played," would he be able to? Or, would he have to think, "Oh, what the heck did I just play there?" In other words, is he cognitively aware when playing, "Hmmm, let me throw in a harmonic minor here, then I'll switch to . . . " Or, is he just playing what he knows sounds good based on being SO familiar with his instrument, and having his ear so trained and sensitive to the music? (and leaving it to others to transcribe). My impression is that at that level, the theory is of little use, and the better guitarists they become, the less they are a music theoretician. In other words, the theory brings you to a place where you eventually jettison it altogether. The theory still exists to be sure, yet you're not totally conscious
of your application of it. Is this correct? If I'm way off, just tell me!
The reason I ask is that in my practicing, etc., I'll experiment, and play a chord or a run and then feel "guilty" that I don't know what I just played in terms of theory (yet I'm very happy with what I just played). Is this a bad habit to get into? Or, should I use the theory only as a guide when I need it? Or, I'll add notes to chords, and I'll think "yep, that's what I want," but I don't immediately know what chord I'm playing, and have to look it up (or figure it out in my head).
Thank you in advance for all feedback on the above. It's very helpful to me..
Matt.
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rguitarjj
As I understand it, Joe Pass knew very little theory. Based on some videos I've seen, he thought about vanilla chords and added alterations by ear. Somewhere, I heard that when a student first asked him about modes, Joe had no idea what he was talking about.
He seemed to know a lot of jazz licks, though.
Petri
it's a bit of both - the theory is there but there's no time to really think about it in the heat of improvisation. That doesn't mean that one wouldn't be able to tell what he played in retrospect. That also depends on the player, of course; there is no one set way of doing it. Among the accomplished players, there are those who are more aware of the theory, those who primarily use the ear, those that think in terms of scales ad those who use set phrases to make up their solos. However, all these things work together so the theoretically oriented players also use their ear to steer them. To which degree they lose sight of the theory is highly individual.
As a piece of advice, while you don't have to think theory while you play, I do advice you to be aware of what you do when practicing. I make a difference between practicing and playing in that while playing, you let the ear and the intuition take over and create whatever wants to come out. When you practice, it's the time to cultivate your skills and to me, that involves a lot of conscious effort to understand what I'm doing and to piece together sounds that I like which, in time, will turn into something that the intuition can call up whenever it needs them. So I would say, be aware of what you're doing when you practice and let go when you perform.
Best wishes,
Petri
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Matt Stati <mattstati@...> wrote:
>
keithfre
I can't answer for Joe, but I can tell you that Garrison Fewell (check out his Red Door #11) says that we he plays is a mixture of melodies he hears in his head and things that he knows will work in that particular harmonic context.
The ideal is to be surfing on a wave of inspiration, but if the wave comes to an end, or you fall off, then you need some conscious tricks up your sleeve.
Hth,
-Keith
JVeg...@aol.com
"matter" all that much. Jazz is a language, so the more one speaks
it (plays), the more natural it becomes, and the more developed one's
vocabulary becomes.
I think Petri said it, but there's a big difference between practicing and
playing. Try to really "hear" what you play, and how it functions with
the chord changes to the tunes you're playing. Personally, I try to
just "play" as much as possible, but there are times when I'll see a
chord such as Eb9#11 in a tune, and I'll structure my line to accent
the note A, because that's a sound I like. Remember that "jazz
pedagogy" came very much after the fact, so while it can be very
useful, I think one can fall into the trap of thinking that mastering
theory will make one a better jazz player. It can't "hurt" per se, but
trying to play is where the secret lies. You can watch a video or a
bunch of videos about how to ride a bicycle, but if you never actually
get on a bike, well, you know...
I'm pretty sure Joe Pass had so internalized his playing that he wasn't
too preoccupied with the theory behind it; likewise, Wes
Montgomery probably didn't know too much about theory, but I think
it didn't matter much. Someone like Ted Greene, though, played just
as fine as the other two cats, but I suspect he had more awareness
about theoretical constructs he was using, and could articulate them.
It's kind of a mixed bag, but in the end, what matters is the music,
and how it sounds.
Cheers,
JV
Juan Vega
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rguitarjj
My teacher, Marcos Silva, is a brilliant player (piano is his main instrument but he plays others well). My impression is that he just hears things. If you ask him "what did you just do" he'll have to think for a moment, after which he can tell you. If you ask what he was thinking at a given point, he may say something like "I was thinking darker".
Wes knew the theory as sounds, which is the goal. Apparently, he didn't know so much in words. But, if you can hear the sounds as well as Wes, the words aren't going to mean much.
As an aside, I've found over the years that I can find notes with my mind and fingers -- even though I can't name them easily. I've had to work on learning to name notes that I can easily find. That is, if you hum a line I can play it instantly (unless it's too complex) even though I couldn't easily name the notes.
I thought that this was because I played guitar for decades before I ever tried formal ear training. But, curiously, the same thing happened when I took up chromatic harmonica. I can barely play the thing, but I can still find notes more easily than I can name them.
The moral of this story, (sorry for the ramble) is that the ability to play and the ability to describe it in words are two different skills, at least for me.
Rick
Eddie Lastra
>
> I believe that Warren Nunes knew exactly what he was doing at all times. Even when he was blazing fast, he could recite what he had just done. At least he did every time I heard him asked.
>
>
It always amazed me how Warren could simultaneously talk to us while playing solos and calling out ahead of time what patterns or tools he was going to use on an upcoming set of chord changes. The man really did have his instrument and technique mastered.
Eddie
dphidt
>
> Here's the question I have in a nutshell: When I'm watching Joe Pass, and he plays an amazing sequence of notes with chords, etc., if you had asked him seconds after he played it, "Joe, tell me the scale, mode, chords, etc., you JUST played," would he be able to? Or, would he have to think, "Oh, what the heck did I just play there?" In other words, is he cognitively aware when playing, "Hmmm, let me throw in a harmonic minor here, then I'll switch to . . . " Or, is he just playing what he knows sounds good based on being SO familiar with his instrument, and having his ear so trained and sensitive to the music? (and leaving it to others to transcribe). My impression is that at that level, the theory is of little use, and the better guitarists they become, the less they are a music theoretician. In other words, the theory brings you to a place where you eventually jettison it altogether. The theory still exists to be sure, yet you're not totally conscious
> of your application of it. Is this correct? If I'm way off, just tell me!
This has come up several times with my instructor (professional jazz guitarist and educator) and, unless it was an example of some lesson material, he usually has to think a bit to tell me what he was playing. I've asked him how he hears it as well, because sometimes, I'll hear a different melodic line than what he hears and wonder why he played what he did. It's not that he doesn't know what is going on, but that it becomes an aural process, rather than a mental one.
I'm definitely not at that level yet, but I have moments where it occurs.
BTW, the pentatonics are amazingly flexible and have numerous applications in jazz playing. To go into them would be a whole thread in itself, but for starters, a G minor/Bb major pent with the root on the 6th string works over a G-7 or a C7 (may want to omit the F and add the E then), then you can either move it to resolve to an F, or change forms and do the same thing. For more "jazz" sounding lines, you can expand the scale w/ lower neighbor notes 1/2 step below the target note in the scale. Wes Montgomery used this technique in his playing to great effect, especially when using octaves.
Happy playing,
-- Mike
Matt Stati
Regarding pentatonics, your comments are noted, and I'm realizing more of their potential as well. No doubt they have wide applicability, but I think I'm a bit biased right now against them because I'm trying to get out of the pentatonic automatic playing, which has dominated my improvising up until recently. Actually, I'm currently forcing myself to not play pentatonics, because I want my ear to learn to appreciate the wide array of other scales.. If I rely too much on the pentatonic right now, I won't extend my playing.. Anyhow, that's where I'm at anyway. Blues improvising has dominated my playing for years, and I'm trying to branch out.
Thanks,
M.
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rguitarjj
For myself, I prefer playing by ear. But, because my palette is more limited than I would like, I'll often try to toss in some theoretic thing in the middle of a solo. Like, I'm wailing away, repeat myself and think, ugh, that's too repetitive ... then I think about the next chord and say, ok, I'll try a melodic minor there (or whatever). 90% of the time, that makes the solo worse.
I have better luck if I don't think about a scale or mode, but just about a single note, often a #11.
Here's what I think is best. Don't expect to play your best on a tune until you know the changes inside-out. Not only do you know what they are, but you can feel them coming. You can play them anywhere on the neck, because you're remembering harmony, not chord grips. You can sing a decent solo to the changes. At that point, if you're an experienced enough player to find the notes you're thinking of on the fly, you'll just play and your head will be filled with melody, not theory.
If you can think of a melody and play it pretty accurately, then you have some work to do before you're going to be a good soloist. Practice playing melodies you know starting in different places on the neck. Play along with the music on the TV. Do ear training. Build the facility to play what's in your mind.
--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, Matt Stati <mattstati@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your thoughts Mike. I think it is a mix of both, knowing the theory, and trusting on what to play. Most of my jazz playing so far has relied on theory, but when improvising there are a few times where I'll play a note or two in a scale run that I'm "taking a chance on" and like the sound of it. I suppose it's my job as a student of jazz to retrace my steps on it, and figure out what I had just played, so that I may learn from it. Otherwise, I suppose my luck could run out when it matters most.Â
Dave Woods
learn to hear. You don't think about a blueprint after you've learned to
live in the house.
Dave Woods http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com
<http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com/>
_____
Ron Becker
an excellent video called On Improvisation. In it he has a small
segment on pentatonics used against altered chords. The five note
scale is very useful here because these chords usually go by pretty
fast. I can't find the book with the examples. But anyway, the
ingrained pentatonics can come in handy and not sound much like
pentatonics because they might be applied to something like... over
a G7#5b9, play a dominant pent. begun on the flat six of the chord.
So played in this case [if this were a real example] starting on Eb.
Again, this is just by way of example. What I have written will
probably not work. I didn't work much with this segment much at the
time. I was still trying to learn the scales they are derived from.
But the little I did use them they sounded great.
What these scales give you, by displacing the pentatonic from the
root, are the same notes someone with much more experience might
choose upon hearing that chord. Of course you probably wouldn't run
the whole scale but mix the notes up choosing just a few. Typically
what the displacement does is give you the extensions plus maybe 2 or
three chord tones to choose from. Coltrane employed these extensively
according to Mr. Scofield. This video BTW, is an excellent
introduction to playing over jazz changes. It's full of hip little
passing chord things and tons of ideas on how to use what scales can
teach you.
As has been written here many times, scales are a means, not an end.
Lastly, the root of a given pentatonic scale played starting on
some interval of some alt chord doesn't mean you have to play the
root of the scale as your first note. It's just so you can get
oriented to where your familiar pattern lays on the neck. If you read
the Forward Motion link the other day you might skip the root of the
pentatonic you are using altogether and end the sequence on the one
of a new bar with one of the unaltered chord tones.
Ron
Living and playing outside the box.
http://www.myspace.com/ron45becker
John Amato
Matt
Yes ... you answered your own question. Joe Pass played by ear ... was untrained as a youth and received much of his musical knowledge on the band stand ... like many pros ... when I studied with Pat Martino, we told me that when he went on the road as a teen he honed his sight-reading skills in hotel rooms the night before the gig or studio session ... same story with many other pros ...
All that woodshedding and transcribing produces giant ears ....
In other words, the theory brings you to a place where you eventually jettison it altogether. The theory still exists to be sure, yet you're not totally conscious of your application of it. Is this correct? If I'm way off, just tell me!
You're right on ... theory is like a calculator that tells you 5+5=10 ... but you learned that already and now you've expnaded to the math of the MIlky Way which is Creation!
The reason I ask is that in my practicing, etc., I'll experiment, and play a chord or a run and then feel "guilty" that I don't know what I just played in terms of theory (yet I'm very happy with what I just played). Is this a bad habit to get into?
Yes ... never feel guilty about self-discovery --- It's your heart that produced "Music" that theory had no part of .... cherish it ... and if you are concerned about "Confirmation" from Theory ... go and find the theory that explains your "Heart" ... remember above, I said that Theory is like a calculator: 5+5=10 ..... well, there are more ways that one to get to "10" ... and your "Heart" knows more ways than ONE!
Or, should I use the theory only as a guide when I need it?
Yes ... use it as a guide ... but also use it as a practice technique to build your chops .... practicing theory whiler praticing the instrument is a sure and heavy CHOP BUILDER!
Or, I'll add notes to chords, and I'll think "yep, that's what I want," but I don't immediately know what chord I'm playing, and have to look it up (or figure it out in my head).
GOOD - go and look it up ... Theory will confirm you original idea (Your Heart) ... but never use Theory to disprove you Heart ... just go and prove it ...
IN FACT ... years ago I would go and search out theory for days, months, years just to prove or disprove my original idea ... then one day I realized that theory only exists because it's a science of the numbers NOT MUSIC ... it's the calculator not the pen .... it's the ink, not the note, etc....
Eddie Lastra
rguitarjj
Better yet, you might start thinking 7th with altered fifths and ninths and just play the ones you like. That way, you're thinking about the specific extensions as they relate to the chord.
It seems to me that this is the easier approach. Basically, you can alter 3rds, 5ths, 7ths and 9ths. How hard can it be to learn those sounds?
Dave Woods
_____
What makes a melody interesting is the intervals BETWEEN the notes if the
melody, and the rhythm and articulation they're played in. It's not just
what extensions weird or what ever that the notes were.
I was played a solo of a player by a student once, who said in a awed voice
"he's playing the 9th, 11th, and 13th of every chord!" It had to be the
most uninteresting solo I'd ever heard.
Too much emphasis is paid to vertical harmonic thinking, and not enough
attention paid to horizontal linear thinking. A simple arpeggio broken up
into an interesting order of intervals within itself can be a lot more
interesting melodically.
Dave Woods http://jazzguitarstartingright.com
<http://jazzguitarstartingright.com/>
___
Dave Woods
Dave Woods
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of rguitarjj
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 8:49 PM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Disappearance of Scales & Chords
I'd add that it makes sense to not think of them as existing in a particular
order. So, if the notes are Eb F G Bb Db and you're playing them against a
Gdominant, you might be better off as thinking root, b7, #11, b13 #9, in no
particular order.
Better yet, you might start thinking 7th with altered fifths and ninths and
just play the ones you like. That way, you're thinking about the specific
extensions as they relate to the chord.
It seems to me that this is the easier approach. Basically, you can alter
3rds, 5ths, 7ths and 9ths. How hard can it be to learn those sounds?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
denisbarsalo
>
>......you might start thinking 7th with altered fifths and ninths and just play the ones you like.
Funny thing is, I find my most interesting sounding solos are when I am not thinking at all! :-)
Dave Woods
_____
From: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jazz_...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of denisbarsalo
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:11 AM
To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Disappearance of Scales & Chords
Denis wrote,
Funny thing is, I find my most interesting sounding solos are when I am not
thinking at all! :-)
Exactly, The most profound things we say are off the "top of our head"
when we just feel, and say it.
_._,_.___
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W David Williams
Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:57 pm (PST)
Theory is nothing but a blueprint that helps you get to what you need to learn to hear. You don't think about a blueprint after you've learned to
live in the house.
Dave Woods http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com
<http://www.jazzguitarstartingright.com/>
Great analogy, Dave. I need to remember that. I also thought your comments a few days ago about the melody notes being the best guide tones was beautiful. Thanks for so many very useful posts here.
Dave Williams
jpaul00
John Amato
"vertical harmonic thinking" (Scaler) = The Prez, aka, Lester Young
"horizontal linear thinking" (Chordal) = Coleman Hawkins
A simple arpeggio broken up into an interesting order of intervals within itself can be a lot more
interesting melodically.
Enough Said!
John Amato
To expound on Dave:
"vertical harmonic thinking" (Scaler) = Coleman Hawkins
"horizontal linear thinking" (Chordal) = The Prez, aka, Lester Young
Bob Hansmann
Good catch! I read it so quickly that I didn't notice it.
Angelo
>
> To expound on Dave:
>
> "vertical harmonic thinking" (Scaler) = The Prez, aka, Lester Young
>
> "horizontal linear thinking" (Chordal) = Coleman Hawkins
>
Isn't that backwards??
r.
>
> Funny thing is, I find my most interesting sounding solos are when I am not thinking at all! :-)
>
down at my fingers..I couldn't believe what I had just played..my
mind or my consious mind was a blank..It was like a religious experience
Its things like that that make you question what the hell is going on.
.
Will
scales usage dates back as far as standard scales.
Will
ammo_fuzztone
-Capt Beefheart.
That very thing happened to me on a gig this October.
It was like time slowed, and I was right in it, not rushing, just hitting every note exactly in time, with complete freedom. And the club was startlingly quiet, and many people were paying rapt attention to what I was playing.
I wanted to check my pulse, see if the old ticker was still flickin'.
But it felt good. Real good. And I promised myself to keep on doing whatever I was doing on the off chance I could encourage it to return.
I could handle that!
Merry Christmas
AMMO