[jazz_guitar] Open Strings - are they Taboo?

[Paul Sametz]

If you start out playing folk-style chords, you use as many open strings as possible, 'cause you're just a beginner. You play in C or G, and to match someone's voice you use a capo.
When you play Spanish-style classical guitar, again, open string are de rigeur. E phrygian, FMaj7 and rasgueado strumming, loud as possible.
You go through a Rock phase, and everything is in the key of E or A. Power chords, wah-wah, overdriven high harmonics, sweep picking. A mixed bag of tricks. You never have to read a note, but everything is in a sharp key - G, D, A, E. Drives the occasional sax player nuts - he has to play in C# or F# major most of the time - and those instruments are not built to make that an easy thing.
Finally you see the light. Jazz guitar, sounds so mellow. People love it in the background while they dine. You still have some of your hearing left, maybe not much in the high end anymore. Andaltough you're playing solo, or haven't hooked up with a horn player yet, all the songs you learn are in the flat keys - F, Bb, Ab, Db, all the easier to accompany those horns in Bb or Eb (they have 2 or 3 less flats than you have to deal with).
This begs the question - why not use a capo? Are open strings tabu when playing jazz guitar?
Or is there yet another style of guitar playing that uses lots of open strings, so it can't be called jazz?

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[sonomatips]

Well, lots of jazz guitarists make use of open strings. Gabor Szabo was probably the first guy who made it an integral part of his sound. Ralph Towner is of course big on using open strings. Lenny Breau used them a lot, as does Jerry Hahn. Jim Hall, John Abercrombie, et. al., use them at least a little.

As you suggested though, you do hear it used more often in solo guitar playing than in a band context.

[Brad Rabuchin]

I think open strings are great in a jazz context. Although many of the older
school player tend to avoid then, Players such as Metheny and Frisell use
them all the time.

[rperry19]

Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,

Ron

[André Rodrigues P. Silva]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@...> wrote:
>
> Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>

Are you sure Pass wasn't joking? 

André Rodrigues

[Brian Kelly]

I am surprised to hear that Joe Pass said that.  Using open string seems like standard fair to me when it comes to the guitar.  When we all first got guitars I think most of us marveled at special sound it made when you played an E chord at the 12th fret. 

 

I see guys who make this statement that they are not particularly guitarists but just musicians.  I think that makes about as much since as claiming that you are not a plumber but rather a carpenter even though you install plumbing for a living.

 

For me the guitar is a special instrument and easily the one that speaks best for me.  It wasn't my first choice; the drums were but my mom wasn't having any of that but luckily for me the guitar has enough built in magic to last me a lifetime.  A part of its magic is using the open strings along with fretted ones.

 

It's worth mentioning that when I was a kid I use to sit around for hours (or as long as my mom was out of the house) and band away at the piano while holding the expression pedal down.  I was fascinated by the sound of all the decaying notes.  If they had put a whammy bar on that old piano somehow, who knows, I might have been a pianist.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brian Kelly

From: rperry19

Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:36 AM

To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Open Strings - are they Taboo?

 

Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,

Ron

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[rodbemail]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@...> wrote:
>

> Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>

If I remember correctly, he said never to play two songs in a row in those keys, because of the reason you stated.

[Brian Kelly]

 

Mike,

 

You play fingerstyle?  I like that.  I play with a pick and fingers but I never consciously taught myself to play like that.  I've just developed the habit over the years because I just enjoy the sound of it and sometimes use it to play intros where I want a nice pianistic sound.  For some reason I just don’t enjoy slashing through the chords with a pick.  I don't even do even use the pick exclusively on Freddie Green style rhythm laying.  It's a little slower for me to use my fingers but I strongly prefer the result it makes to the sound.

 

If you are primarily a fingerstyle guitarist what influenced you to specialize in that technique?  Who are your influences?  Do you use an acoustic guitar or an archtop?

 

 

 

 

 

Brian    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Mike Detlefsen : Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:46 AM

To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Open Strings - are they Taboo?

 

I mildly disagree with him on this. Of course, I play fingerstyle (I think he did once in a while also), but one of the things you learn is how to mute strings in situations like that. Or maybe it's just the years of classical lessons that did it. :-)

Mike

On 31 Aug 2010, at 06:36 , rperry19 wrote:

> Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>
> Ron
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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[Brian Kelly]

Oh yeah, I remember that video.  If I remember right it didn't seem like he was joking.

 

 

 

 

Brian 

 

From: André Rodrigues P. Silva

Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:56 AM

To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [jazz_guitar] Open Strings - are they Taboo?

 

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@...> wrote:

>
> Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>

Are you sure Pass wasn't joking? 

André Rodrigues

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[Mike Detlefsen]

I mildly disagree with him on this. Of course, I play fingerstyle (I think he did once in a while also), but one of the things you learn is how to mute strings in situations like that. Or maybe it's just the years of classical lessons that did it. :-)

Mike

On 31 Aug 2010, at 06:36 , rperry19 wrote:

> Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>
> Ron
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

[JamesM]

open strings are most beautiful sounds. why would one avoid them? In fact, grab a great guitar and play each open string until you ring every overtone out of each of them. This might take a while.

now fret a note and try to match that sound.

[Mike Detlefsen]

On 31 Aug 2010, at 10:17 , Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike,

 

If you are primarily a fingerstyle guitarist what influenced you to specialize in that technique?  Who are your influences?  Do you use an acoustic guitar or an archtop?

 

Brian-

Well, I'd been playing for a year or so (started back around 1960) and heard Chet Atkins playing a classical guitar. I promptly traded my Les Paul Jr. for a Goya classical guitar (still have it). I've played finger style ever since (with and without a thumbpick, as the spirit moves me). I can barely hold a flat pick, heh. I had moderately severe arthritis from about 1990 to 2001 and quit playing entirely. I then had it go into remission and took classical lessons for two years to not only get my technique back, but to improve it. Best guitar-related money I ever spent.

Influences have been Chet, Charlie Byrd, Lenny Breau, Earl Klugh, Julian Bream, Les Paul, and Johnny Smith.

I'm primarily a nylon-string player. I just like the sound better. I play mostly on a custom thin-body nylon electric I had built a few years ago (the Goya having biodegraded to uselessness). That said, I have more steel stringers (all electric) than nylon ones, five archtops and three solid bodied, several with pickups I've built myself. I play some of the Chet style on the steel strings, but the steel strings chew up my fingernails pretty quickly.

Mike

__._,_.___

[Will]



He could have been referring to eb, F and Bb being good singing keys.

 

Also if you are playing with sax or clarinet you often have to use Eb or Bb.

 

Will

 

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@...> wrote:
>
> Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>

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[sonomatips]

One should keep in mind that Joe Pass was very good at telling a joke with a straight face and letting you figure out whether or not he was joking. I attended a few of his workshops so can testify re: his ironic wit.

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Will" <will@...> wrote:
>
> He could have been referring to eb, F and Bb being good singing keys.
>
> Also if you are playing with sax or clarinet you often have to use Eb or Bb.
>
> Will
>
>
> --- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@> wrote:
> >
> > Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the open strings will put you and your audience asleep,
>

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[rperry19]

Pass was not joking, and from memory I never remember him doing any song that had an open sound.

He also made the statement that was mentioned about not playing two songs in the same key back to back.

Ron

[Dave Woods]

 

 

Jim Wrote, 

open strings are most beautiful sounds. why would one avoid them? In fact, grab a great guitar and play each open string until you ring every overtone out of each of them. This might take a while.

now fret a note and try to match that sound.

Dave Woods

Django used open strings.  One of his favorite Keys was G. He would hit the harmonics across all six strings sometimes right in the middle of a solo.  However, amplified guitar and the feedback problems that start with open strings, are probably why Joe Pass said what he did.

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[Chris Smart]

At 10:56 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:
>--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@...> wrote:
>and your audience asleep,
> >
>

>Are you sure Pass wasn't joking?�

He did have a rather crusty sense of humor ... :)

[Chris Smart]

At 07:36 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:
>Joe Pass stated in one of his videos that you should never play
>jazz in the keys of A, E, or D. He stated that the droning of the
>open strings will put you and your audience asleep,

Funny, there's lots of droning E and A strings in his version of
Summertime, on I Remember Charlie Parker.

that's from memory so hopefully I'm remembering it right.

[Chris Smart]

At 11:08 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:

>I am surprised to hear that Joe Pass said that. Using open string
>seems like standard fair to me when it comes to the guitar.

Yeah, let's tell all the sax players to stop playing in Bb Ab Eb...

Chris

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[Nat Janoff]

I can't imagine Joe Pass being serious about open strings.

Open strings are one of the coolest things about the guitar!!!

Nat Janoff

www.natjanoff.com

[rguitarjj]

I saw the video of that. He was saying that you should not only play chord melody in those keys. He wasn't joking.

But, as far as open strings go, they have a beautiful ringing tone that stopped strings don't have. And, you can let them ring even as you play other notes.

This has been used brilliantly by many. I'd recommend a number of Brazilian players. Guinga, for one, is unbelievable with open strings. Joao Bosco is another.

[John Amato]

Was it Segovia, or somebody, that said 'the guitar is the easiest instrument to learn how to play, but the most difficult to learn how to play well ....

... whoever said it, it's true .... and having said that, "Open Strings" add to the texture and colors on the guitar ... and not to employ them because of 'rumors' of a genre is simply shortcutting and limiting what the instruments voice can do ...

__._,_.___

[Terry Gilton]

I love open strings! Not only do they give me a beat to get to a new position while playing a walking bass line in a chord melody, you can make some pretty cool and unique sounds. Constantly playing open strings is annoying and boring, but they are a great part of the sounds guitars can make.

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[Bob Hansmann]

On 8/31/2010 9:43 PM, Terry Gilton wrote:
> I love open strings! Not only do they give me a beat to get to a new
> position while playing a walking bass line in a chord melody, you can
> make some pretty cool and unique sounds. Constantly playing open
> strings is annoying and boring, but they are a great part of the
> sounds guitars can make.

I think Joe Pass was speaking from the perspective of his time (just
like all of us do). Guitarists do lots of things with their sound that
is a far cry from the dark, flat-wound "jazz guitar" of yesteryear. That
sound, of course, is still very much available, and lots of guitarists
go for it as well, but it's one of the many now.

One of the major strengths of the guitar as an instrument has always
been its ability to express so many different nuances and tonal colors.
Ya gotta do what you like, though. I can't even imagine Joe Pass going
for a Mike Stern or Kelvin Bell type of sound, but he sure was a GREAT
Joe Pass.

Joe's feelings about switching up keys is as fresh today, though, as the
day he said it, IMO.

best,
Bobby

[Petri]

Hi,

I don't see much discussion here about the way one uses the open strings. Using them as bass notes like they do in the "guitar" keys in classical guitar is just one way. In fact, IMO the most useful way to incorporate them is as an inner voice of a chord voicing; that way we can play some pianistic close position voicings.

And that has very little to do with key - for example, the G (3rd string) can act as a maj7 of an Abmaj7 chord, voiced like this: xx604x ..or it can be the b5 of a C#m7(b5), voiced like this: x4405x or you could add the seventh of the chord by playing x44000.

Or how about a Bbm7(b5) chord played the Ralph Towner way: 6x6640? Or the lovely Am9 voicing x/0/10/12/0/0 or the more usual one x05500? And if you have Abm9, you can use something like 4x4304.

One guy that has some great open-string voicings is Sid Jacobs; I picked up some like D13: x/9/10/9/0/x or A13: x/10/11/11/0/x. There are plenty of those in the Bill Evans book he wrote. Maybe a Fmaj13(#11) like x87700.

The point is, I prefer the open strings when they are inside the voicing, hidden in there. It takes some work to get the chords sound balanced, but there are so many great sounds to be found there.

All the best,

Petri

www.petrikrzywacki.com

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[patsky...@yahoo.com]

sounds like joe pass didn't like open strings and didn't want anyone else to like them either. he might have been a bit mistaken thinking that everyone wanted to sound just like him. :)

[John Amato]

Terry,
Absolutely!
Open Strings are freebies why not take them esp in chord melodies!
Tony Hughes

.... Ragtime guitar, which was the forerunner to Blues Guitar, would not be "ragtime" without the extensive use of open stings ... especially in effecting the 'rolls' and  open tunings ...

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[T.Hughes]

Terry,
Absolutely!
Open Strings are freebies why not take them esp in chord melodies!
Tony Hughes

[rperry19]

Joe Pass was a very intricate guitar player. In several of his videos he referred to boring playing. He was very concerned about a player being boring to his audience. I truly don't think he was against the occasional use of an open string in a solo, but too much of a good thing can be boring.

He was referring to passages with open strings that went on and on. He also did a lot of his playing as a single player in concert. Say fifth song in to the last set in an evening performance could put an audience to sleep with the drone of long open string passages.

Although I brought this topic up, I like to use an open string in combination with double stops in runs up the neck. I think it presents a great outside sound that adds life to an improvisation.

Example: use an open top E string combined with double stops on strings 4 and 5 in Autumn Leaves in G(Em).

Ron

[Rick Williams]

I agree that open strings are nice, but the opposition may come from other string instruments.  Specifically violinists really avoid open strings unless they are playing baroque or Appalachian "folksy" music.  Ditto with the cello.
 
A lot of the old Carter Family music used open strings or first positon simple playing, rather different than jazz of course.
 
Generally string tone is considered "sweeter" if it is played up the neck vs an open string, but an open string is very effective for dynamics and change of context.  Open strings do not allow for vibrato or bending too.
 
Rick Williams

[Bob Hansmann]

Hi Rick,

> Open strings do not allow for vibrato or bending too.

I once saw a guitar that's neck had been pushed & pulled so hard it
broke the body. I'm sure that last note had plenty of vibrato!

:-) ,
Bobby

[Brian Kelly]

Petri,

 

Where you been?  Good to see a post from you.

 

 

 

 

Brian Kelly

From: Petri

Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:49 AM

To: jazz_...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: Open Strings - are they Taboo?

 

Hi,

I don't see much discussion here about the way one uses the open strings. Using them as bass notes like they do in the "guitar" keys in classical guitar is just one way. In fact, IMO the most useful way to incorporate them is as an inner voice of a chord voicing; that way we can play some pianistic close position voicings.

And that has very little to do with key - for example, the G (3rd string) can act as a maj7 of an Abmaj7 chord, voiced like this: xx604x ..or it can be the b5 of a C#m7(b5), voiced like this: x4405x or you could add the seventh of the chord by playing x44000.

Or how about a Bbm7(b5) chord played the Ralph Towner way: 6x6640? Or the lovely Am9 voicing x/0/10/12/0/0 or the more usual one x05500? And if you have Abm9, you can use something like 4x4304.

One guy that has some great open-string voicings is Sid Jacobs; I picked up some like D13: x/9/10/9/0/x or A13: x/10/11/11/0/x. There are plenty of those in the Bill Evans book he wrote. Maybe a Fmaj13(#11) like x87700.

The point is, I prefer the open strings when they are inside the voicing, hidden in there. It takes some work to get the chords sound balanced, but there are so many great sounds to be found there.

All the best,

Petri

www.petrikrzywacki.com

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[Chris Smart]

Hey Petri! Any new videos??

Chris

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[pecpec]

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "rperry19" <rperry19@...> wrote:
>

> Pass was not joking, and from memory I never remember him doing any song that had an open sound.
>
> He also made the statement that was mentioned about not playing two songs in the same key back to back.
>

Seems like "Night and Day" on the first Virtuoso album has some open ringers to my ears - but anyway Joe had a wry sense of humor - maybe he was just tweaking the cowboy chord crowd with this statement. I heard him make fun of himself about how enamored he used to be with playing fast as opposed to playing "musical". This was in a small bar playing duo with NHOP. You can imagine how slow that pair was that night!! He often answered questions with responses that surprised and amused. When someone asked him how to learn to play fast, instead of the usual pat answer about practicing slowly and correctly and working your way up, he simply said - "practice playing fast".

[Marshall]

I use a piece of felt as a makeshift damper to curtail some of the sustain of open strings. My playing now consists of solo work or duo with my voice, and I find open strings quite useful if excessive ringing is avoided.

BTW, the Gibson ES 137 I bought earlier this summer has more sustain than I have previously experienced in a guitar.

Best,

Marshall

[Chris Smart]

At 11:09 AM 9/1/2010, you wrote:
> Hi Rick,
> > Open strings do not allow for vibrato or bending too.

Uh, whammy bar anyone?

[Petri]

Hey Brian,

happy to announce that I've been busy with work - lots of gigs, hardly any time to even lurk around here. Plus, we had an addition to our family at the end of May so that tends to take up quite a bit of the free time.. ;)

I also finished the second CD - it should be released soon, but I'm not doing that bit myself this time so I don't know if it will be on CD Baby.. in any case, I can sell them directly. Plus I have a sweet deal; I sell them on gigs as usual anyway - and that's how most of them get sold anyway in my experience.

Anyway, I try to contribute if I have a moment.

Petri

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Kelly" <bkelly@...> wrote:
> Petri,
>
> Where you been? Good to see a post from you.

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[JamesM]

Congratulations, Petri!

To add to your open string chord list: Play the D or G or C scale on the fourth string. Leave all other strings open. Name those beauties. My favorite A9 is 0 O 11 0 0 0. Do this on 5th and 4th. And so on. Try all keys why don't cha. ;-) Try different string sets. BTW, the string set concept by George van Epps should be included in every serious study of the guitar. Of course, it is valuable for delineating the harmonized scale, but it can be a very useful stepping stone for other kinds of exploration.
A few more:
I like x 5 7 0 6 O = Dm9 or x 5 8 0 6 0 Bb lydian sound--- lovely sound for intros.
6 8 o 7 8 0 = Bb6#11
x 1 3 0 3 o = same
x 2 4 o 4 o = great sounding chord with 5 and 3 ambiguity
Jim

[Petri]

Hey Chris,

unfortunately not at the moment.. I'm contemplating on a woodshedding period after a busy summer with a lot of playing, so I might do some of those at some point. :)

P

[Petri]

Hey Jim,

nice ones! I have a couple more (I seem to go for the ones with only one open string):

Bb13(#11) - 6x6780
Db7(#5#9) - x43200
another 5th-3rd ambiguity chord, this one in C: x36060
Dm11 - x5305x
Eb(add9) - x6034x
Gb13 - x98890
G13 - x/10/9/10/10/0

..those two last ones of course also work as C7(#5#9) and Db7(#5#9) if you change the lowest note.

Am11 - x/10/10/9/0/10
Abm11 - x98809

I especially love the way you can use those chromatic chords and still have an open string somewhere in there.

[timpaypal2003]

Answer to original question:
No! They are great for adding bass notes in a duo setting or getting usually unattainable inner voice tensions like Petri and Jim explained. Also, think of in a small group rhythm section how a piano might slam down on a low note with their left hand (McCoy, anyone?) - next time you have a big E alt voicing in a dramatic point of your solo, play a low open E string and then play a high voicing like this:

E7#9#5
x-11-12-12-13-12

I know we are taught to avoid voicings that utilize the low E string in a combo to stay out of the bassist way, but that doesn't mean we can't EVER use these notes. It just takes some extra listening. Spending some time listening to the left hands of pianists can give you some valuable insight into appropriate times to use the low open strings in a small group context.

I know it doesn't get discussed much on this forum, but I love using open string voicings for more avant garde (free) settings, due to the dissonances I can achieve with these close interval grips. They also act as great drones or pedal points that you can move other notes around. A lot of those voicings aren't easily analyzed in tonal terms but are extremely effective.

Re - Jim and Petri:
Very nice chords! Here are some more to add to the list. I apologize if they have already been discussed. As always, the names just reflect common uses. You can always apply them to all of the related modes to achieve more possibilities.

Basic open position chords that use open strings. Not inner voice open string use, but these I feel are still important to think of, especially for bossas.

Think Corcovado
FdimMaj7 (Emaj over F) - F6/9
1x0100 - 1x0010

Emin9/11 - Just adding the low open E bass note. Great big ending chord.
025232

Bb6/9(#11)
x10010

Bb7(9 #11) (Change bass to F and it becomes a great Fmin/maj7 with 6)
x10110

Bb7(b9 #11)
x10100

etc...

Open strings for inner voices:

amin9
x05500

amin6/9 (d13 if you replace the open a with the 5th fret)
x04500

A7 b9, #11 (Diminished Scale voicing)
x05340

G7#(11/13)
3x3420

Joe Pass intro to "My Romance" in C
G7sus - G13b9
3x3210 - 3x3100

Some voicings I stole from Larry Koonse:

G7b9,#9 or Db13
xx3304

Abmaj7(9), Fmin9/11, etc
xx5046

Gmaj7(9), Emin9/11, etc
(0)x4035

Steve Cardenas showed me this great voicing. Great ending chord!
DbMaj7 (#9/#11) OR C triad over Db triad

443010

Tim
http://www.timfischermusic.com/

[JamesM]

Thanks Tim,
E7#9#5
x-11-12-12-13-12!!!!! I don't know where i first heard this chord...Ed Bickert?, but it stuck and i love it. It makes a lovely chromatic chord without the low string as well. When you put the guide tones on the 5th and 4th strings -instead of on 4 and 3- all kinds of nice things pop up.
The other voicings are welcome in my home as well. Would you consider making a compendium? The Sound of Music is great for your big E/F chord!
Thank you,
Jim

[sonomatips]

Thanks... I'll have to add these chords that you guys have suggested to the chart of open string chords I posted in the group's File Archive - if they're not already in it.

I think the only thing that might be taboo for a jazz guitarist would be to smash your guitar and kick over your amp at the end of your performance a la Pete Townsend.

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "timpaypal2003" <tim@...> wrote:
>
>

[Bob Hansmann]

Hi Petri,
Many congratulations and all best wishes!

Bobby

[sonomatips]

I revised my open string chord voicings chart, added a few of the chords mentioned - most of them were already in it.

The chart is named "Chords; Open String Voicings -1" and it can be found in the Text Files folder of the Yahoo Jazz Guitar Group File Archive.

--- In jazz_...@yahoogroups.com, "sonomatips" <musette@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks... I'll have to add these chords that you guys have suggested to the chart of open string chords I posted in the group's File Archive - if they're not already in it.
>
> I think the only thing that might be taboo for a jazz guitarist would be to smash your guitar and kick over your amp at the end of your performance a la Pete Townsend.
>