"JKoala is an open source project aimed at porting AWT / Swing under
Mac OS X / Cocoa. It will be distributed under the GNU GPL license
with classpath exception."
"Since Apple deprecated its implementation of Java under Mac OS X,
OpenJDK is the only option to run Java under Lion, the future Mac OS X
version. But OpenJDK still lacks an integration with the Mac OS X
graphical interface. To ensure a good user experience with Java
graphical applications, AWT / Swing must be ported under Mac OS X /
Cocoa, and this is the purpose of the JKoala project."
The author is looking for donations to fund the effort.
What do you all think?
// Ben
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I mean, apart from writing two books (one on Java, one on Swing, both
in French), creating and maintaining a 3d-modeller in Java, and having
implemented a headless pure java AWT, what else should he be expected
to provide?
// Ben
http://www.subfurther.com/blog/?p=1305
including this paragraph:
Aside: when volunteers aren�t enough, the next step is to get out the
checkbook and call in mercenaries. I looked at javax.sound
<http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/overview-summary.html>
yesterday and estimated it would take me 4-6 weeks, full-time, to do a
production-quailty port using Core Audio. I�ll bid the project out at
$20,000. Sign a contract and I�ll contribute the sources to any project
you like (OpenJDK, Harmony, whatever). You know where to reach me. And
I�m not holding my breath.
Because, yes, we have a volunteering problem. Landon Fuller and some
other people did a very good inception job two years ago, but there were
no followers. So, money can be a solution. Of course, put in the way
JKoala put them, it's a matter of trust about the person behind it (I've
not looked at who he is). The $50,000 figure makes some sense, if you
compare it with the $20,000 for javax.sound alone - indeed, for the
whole Cocoa port I think something in the area of $200,000 would make
more sense.
If Oracle is not interested in maintaining a port by itself, it would be
not a bad idea to give some sponsorship (I mean, not to JKoala
necessarily, but to a some better organised team, a contract-based
effort, which should include Landon if he agrees). Probably not all the
money, they could just tell they're available to offer a part and I
think some other actor from the community could join.
--
f.g.
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But I'm not talking of redoing the same thing Apple did. As fas as I
know, Quaqua (100% pure Java Aqua widgets) would be ok and I'm just
thinking of a "lightweight" (if we can say so) porting so at least
JWindow and JFrame run inside a Cocoa window.
--
f.g.
Ok, precisation needed! With the above sentence, I meant that I didn't
know who was the JKoala author - I mean, I didn't know *his name* (I
hope now it's clear). He's just written to me, and he's Emmanuel
Puybaret, who I do know by fame (he's a frequent poster at the Java-dev
mailing list at Apple), and he's got a very reputable CV (e.g., have a
look at
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/porters-dev/2007-November/000001.html).
In particular, Emmanuel is one of the guys who manage in delivering a
functional Swing-based application that is also pleasing and user friendly:
http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp
He's not subscribing this group and asked me to forward this message:
As I'm not registered in this group I can't write and wanted to state clearly that JKoala is no scam.
We must must move forward, and stop waiting for others to get the job done.
As said on JKoala web site, I would be glad to help, but I have to eat also. That's as simple as that...
And you're right, this might cost much more than $50,000., but don't worry I'm not greedy.;-)
Please forward this information in the group.
Have a nice evening
--
Emmanuel Puybaret
Email :puyb...@eteks.com
Web :http://www.eteks.com
http://www.jkoala.org
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> I am pretty comfortable with the fact that it's not a scam, but come on: does he really expect to receive random anonymous donations that will add up to $50,000?
>
> That part seems ridiculous to me, or maybe just extraordinarily naïve.
As we say in French, "La chance sourit aux audacieux" :-)
I just try my chance, and stop dreaming that others will do the job.
It would be naïve to do it for free, and I couldn't afford it anyway.
By the way, I'm sure it won't cost $1,000,000.
--
Cédric
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So it's not just that one guy is getting paid to do this full time; it's that this one full time guy can probably help direct the efforts of say 4-7 non-paid contributors. You repeat this with a few more people working full time, suddenly you've got a formidable software team.
Rob
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I think creating a native integration with Mac OS is going to be hard enough without trying to track a moving target that has zero installation at this moment in time.
Rob
On Oct 26, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Josh McDonald wrote:
> What if the new JFX scene graph was ported to Cocoa, could an AWT implementation be built atop that? It'd probably mean a smaller mac-specific port assuming the non-Java portions of the new stack are mainly just interfacing with OpenGL?
>
> On 27 October 2010 08:38, Rob Ross <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:
> A project this big needs full-time technical leadership. Without it, there's little chance of everyone's little contribution amounting to much useful code. But with technical leadership, work can be planned and allocated to all available resources. I don't have the time, nor the specific experience to be in a lead position on this project, but I can, and fully intend, to contribute.
>
> So it's not just that one guy is getting paid to do this full time; it's that this one full time guy can probably help direct the efforts of say 4-7 non-paid contributors. You repeat this with a few more people working full time, suddenly you've got a formidable software team.
>
> Rob
>
> On Oct 26, 2010, at 3:26 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > 2010/10/26 Emmanuel Puybaret <puyb...@eteks.com>
> > > I am pretty comfortable with the fact that it's not a scam, but come on: does he really expect to receive random anonymous donations that will add up to $50,000?
> > >
> > > That part seems ridiculous to me, or maybe just extraordinarily naïve.
> >
> > As we say in French, "La chance sourit aux audacieux" :-)
> >
> > I would argue that what you are doing is not exactly audacieux. Audacieux would be for you to do the port and then present it to the world and expect to get paid :-)
> >
> > I just try my chance, and stop dreaming that others will do the job.
> > It would be naïve to do it for free, and I couldn't afford it anyway.
> > By the way, I'm sure it won't cost $1,000,000.
> >
> > Probably because you are vastly underestimating the amount of effort involved and also not factoring in all the non-straight-coding aspect of it.
> >
> > Good luck anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Cédric
>
>
> --
Back to JKoala. Well, on this side there's no audacious people (with the
exception of Landon Fuller et al.), otherwise SoyLatte would have
received significant contributions in the past two years. So, I assume
that no people will move without money. Emmanuel's statement is clear
and honest and he's putting his face on it. He's got excellent skills.
In the worst case, if he fails people will just lose 50 EUR, which is
basically one dinner at a good restaurant, and in any case we will have
*something* using Cocoa and not a clean sheet. If he finds some
cul-de-sac in development, we will know that and maybe somebody else
will be able to go on with another route.
So I'm personally endorsing his attempt and I donated my 50 EUR (I need
to lose weight anyway). Maybe some corporate, including the big ones,
finds the time to give some more bucks?
--
f.g.
Before, OpenJDK on the Mac was just "oh that's cool they can run that." But now it's a matter of (software) life or death.
So the situation has drastically changed.
I'll be contributing 50 EUR also, in addition to helping contribute to this project as best I can.
Rob
--
f.g.
1. 50% of Java developers use Apple hardware to develop Java apps (*for sake of argument, based on anecdotal observation)
2. Netbeans will no longer run for 50% of Java developers, but Eclipse will continue to work.
3. Using Eclipse makes it easer to develop apps that integrate with WebSphere and pureScale/POWER7/ DB2.
4. Every app developed for WebSphere is one less app developed for WebLogic, and one less coat of wax for Larry's boat.
5. ...
How's that for a start?
Rob
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How about this for a business case:
1. 50% of Java developers use Apple hardware to develop Java apps (*for sake of argument, based on anecdotal observation)
I'd like to throw into the discussion another piece of stuff. Emilian
Bold in a private communication referred to this:
http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/
I've heard of it, but it's probably one of the projects in the OpenJDK
cluster that I know the less. Among its goals there's the capability of
making easier and faster portings of AWT. Does somebody know at which
stage is it? Would it be something that could be useful in this situation?
--
f.g.
The short answer is "no."
The main use-case of this project is to make it easy to port AWT/Java2D to mobile and embedded devices.
Rob
http://www.jroller.com/neugens/entry/java_on_mac
--
f.g.
I wouldn't say I prefer a single person to work on it. I was trying to get across that this one person is not only qualified to lead the charge on a Mac-native port, but is also available full time, which is what this project is going to need.
I hope Landon and Emmanuel can get in touch with each other and discuss and coordinate.
Also, I'm curious why OpenJDK wouldn't just start an "official" new project, a "MacOS-port" project, instead of relying on the BSD-port? The goal it to recreate (and surpass) what Apple did on its port, right? Not just hack up the BSD code so it can run on Mac OS?
I want a fully native, integrated JDK for the Mac OS platform, and I'm willing to do it myself (metaphorically speaking, I'm not insane) if I have to in order to make this happen.
Rob
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Chris Adamson wrote:
>
>> Dalibor just tweeted a status update on the bsd-port project from
>> Landon Fuller, in the context of whether JKoala could/should be
>> integrated with it at some point.
>>
>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/bsd-port-dev/2010-October/001355.html
>>
>> It's in response to Rob, who likes the one-focused-developer model,
>> while Landon would prefer for these efforts to be organized around bsd-
>> port.
>>
>> --Chris
>
> I wouldn't say I prefer a single person to work on it. I was trying to get across that this one person is not only qualified to lead the charge on a Mac-native port, but is also available full time, which is what this project is going to need.
Regardless of who steps up to help (I hope a lot of people!), I think we can (and should) use OpenJDK as a rallying point -- there's a lot of work that needs to be done to produce a functional release-quality JDK for Mac OS X, and we can coordinate closely with Oracle (and rely on their resources) by opening a dialog and working with them via the OpenJDK project. One of the first major issues with embarking on any significant quantity of work is whether it will simply be superseded by internal development at Oracle, which is something we can only avoid by talking with them.
It's my goal to see the Mac OS X port merged into Java 7 mainline in time for a proper Mac OS X release, and we're definitely going to have to work with Oracle to make that happen.
> Also, I'm curious why OpenJDK wouldn't just start an "official" new project, a "MacOS-port" project, instead of relying on the BSD-port? The goal it to recreate (and surpass) what Apple did on its port, right? Not just hack up the BSD code so it can run on Mac OS?
The Mac OS X port stands very heavily on the shoulders of the BSD porting work -- Mac OS X is, at heart, a BSD (mostly), and a great majority of code is very nearly identical. Nearly all of the ongoing work and open-source contributions (even predating OpenJDK) have come from the BSD community, and trying to separate the two would simply place the maintenance burden solely on our own heads, for very little benefit.
Where a Mac port needs to differentiate itself is in native integration, and that's something we can do very effectively while still leveraging the work of the BSD porters.
That said, it would be great to have an official Mac OpenJDK (MacJDK?) home page and bug tracking to coordinate Mac-specific work. This is something I'd like to keep closely tied to OpenJDK, if at all possible. Dalibor Topic has volunteered himself to serve as the 'official channel' to Oracle, so I guess that's a question for him :)
> I want a fully native, integrated JDK for the Mac OS platform, and I'm willing to do it myself (metaphorically speaking, I'm not insane) if I have to in order to make this happen.
Sounds good to me :)
-landonf
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Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it
1. Tool Tips now dissolve like they do on normal Mac apps, they don't just cut away. Also, they stay up for 10 seconds, not 4.
2. Full Keyboard access is honored (so far my implementation has JButtons only), but when Off, no JButtons are focusable.
3. All drawing code will be done purely in Java2D, no native callbacks to paint native widgets.
I also have plans to implement a full screen menu bar that fully implements the JMenuItem/JMenuBar APIs, ie., honors custom drawing. It should be possible in native code, as NSMenuItems support custom NSViews.
etc.
:)
Rob