What would you like to know about JavaFX

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Dick Wall

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Nov 24, 2008, 11:47:00 AM11/24/08
to The Java Posse
Hi folks

We have the opportunity to ask some questions about JavaFX coming up.
JavaFX is something that we have talked about a fair bit already on
the show, and also not something that is a particularly core
competency to most of us on the Posse :-). As such, we wanted to find
out what you would like to know about JavaFX so that we can pass the
questions along.

You can ask anything, in my experience folks like the difficult
questions because it lets them get the answers out there, so feel free
to ask anything you like. The one restriction is that while we will
ask tough questions, we will not be asking any rude or hostile
questions. Once we start doing that we are on a downward spiral to
"gotcha" reporting and that is somewhere we do not want to be.

So please, let us know what you would like to know about JavaFX. We
will probably hit some questions like "do you really think Java FX can
take on Flash", "what about silverlight" and those sorts of things,
but help us out with what you would like to know as well.

Cheers

Dick

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 24, 2008, 11:56:47 AM11/24/08
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Hi Dick.
If you plan to grill me with these questions at Devoxx I can tell you
my strength of will is iron-clad... unless weakened by tasty Belgium
beer. :)
- Josh

mikaelgrev

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Nov 24, 2008, 1:10:59 PM11/24/08
to The Java Posse
How about this one(s):

1) Why was it necessary to put all that effort into creating a new
language, why couldn't Java be enhanced or Groovy used?

and the followup:

2) Why does everybody with an opinion (outside Sun) think it was such
a bad idea to do so and what are they not understanding?

and a possible followup:

3) Has "another insulating layer" ever solved anything? ;)

I know a lot of people are asking themselves this...

Cheers,
Mikael Grev

mbien

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Nov 24, 2008, 1:17:49 PM11/24/08
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1.) Will the JavaFX designer be built on top of NetBeans RCP?
<wait for an answer>
2.) Why not?

-michael

John Nilsson

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Nov 24, 2008, 1:29:36 PM11/24/08
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1. JavaFX script is supposed to include an API that lets you decleratively build Swing apps. How would you go about implementing such an JavaFX Script API for your own libraries?


2. What is the plan to rescue what must becalled a total marketing failure of JavaFX?

BR,
John

kirk

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Nov 24, 2008, 1:35:57 PM11/24/08
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Joshua Marinacci wrote:
> Hi Dick.
> If you plan to grill me with these questions at Devoxx I can tell you
> my strength of will is iron-clad... unless weakened by tasty Belgium
> beer. :)
>

I will make sure that happens :-)


- Kirk

Casper Bang

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Nov 24, 2008, 1:53:47 PM11/24/08
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What's the purpose of reviving the applet tag which was deprecated by
W3C 9 years ago?
http://jfx.wikia.com/wiki/Applet_Example

Why not start from a clean slate, keep the deployment model simple and
rely on the Object tag like Silverlight and Flash, it's not like a 3+
year old JRE will be able to run JavaFX anyway?

/Casper

mbien

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Nov 24, 2008, 2:14:45 PM11/24/08
to The Java Posse
On Nov 24, 7:53 pm, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's the purpose of reviving the applet tag which was deprecated by
> W3C 9 years ago?http://jfx.wikia.com/wiki/Applet_Example
object tag works too...
It is even AFAIK the only way to communicate with applets via
javascript. I don't see a reason to abandon the applet tag entirely -
its only deprecated.

sherod

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Nov 24, 2008, 2:47:08 PM11/24/08
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How about: 'why do you think the java community has so much angst and
loathing built up toward jfx?'

Viktor Klang

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Nov 24, 2008, 2:52:27 PM11/24/08
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On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:47 PM, sherod <steven...@gmail.com> wrote:

How about:  'why do you think the java community has so much angst and
loathing built up toward jfx?'

IMHO it's because the product is not clearly defined and communicated.

Exactly what IS JavaFX?
Is it a bird, a plane or superman?

 



--
Viktor Klang
Senior Systems Analyst

Weiqi Gao

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Nov 24, 2008, 3:04:12 PM11/24/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Dick Wall wrote:
>
> We have the opportunity to ask some questions about JavaFX coming up.
> JavaFX is something that we have talked about a fair bit already on
> the show, and also not something that is a particularly core
> competency to most of us on the Posse :-). As such, we wanted to find
> out what you would like to know about JavaFX so that we can pass the
> questions along.

What will be the licensing model for JavaFX, especially for the parts
that are not openly developed (everything except the openjfx-compiler
and the Scenario scene graph library)?

--
Weiqi Gao
weiq...@gmail.com
http://www.weiqigao.com/blog/

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 24, 2008, 3:27:24 PM11/24/08
to java...@googlegroups.com, The Java Posse
This one I can answer. The object tag, as implemented in existing
browsers, does not work or provides a less than optimal experience for
the end user. We are providing javascript utility functions to
generate the tags anyway so you won't ever need to care about object
vs applet.

- Josh, on the go

kibitzer

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Nov 24, 2008, 4:52:38 PM11/24/08
to The Java Posse
I might have some questions after tomorrow's Sun Developer Day in
Melbourne, if it's not too late. In fact, I could report on what Sun
says about JavaFX since there's at least one session dedicated to
that. Might provide some fodder.

Mark Derricutt

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Nov 24, 2008, 5:07:57 PM11/24/08
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One question I'd love to ask:  Are there any plans to push/pursue/promote JavaFX -the language- for server side development?  The type interference, closures and declarative nature could be wonderful for server side development.  And also, how does JavaFX's implementation of closures etc. play into future Java 7 closures?

Are we likely to see a radical annoucement from Sun that JavaFX the language, will be Java7? :)
--
"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." -- Bill Harlan

Adam G.

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Nov 25, 2008, 4:14:17 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
I would like to know, why does it (or did it - depends when you ask)
take so long to release JavaFX? There have been so many announcements
on the JavaOne this year but it is still not released.

Still not sure if it will be shipped in the beginning of December....

Regards,
Adam

sherod

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Nov 25, 2008, 4:54:01 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
The "This ain't your Dad's Java" podcast title for today was "The one
before the launch" and the marketing team have been tweeting all week
about various prep things.

It's going to be the 2nd of December.

Patrick Wright

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Nov 25, 2008, 5:08:07 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
1) One of the coolest things about the early F3 demos from Chris
Oliver was the F3 interpreter and FXPad. It was a nice way to
experiment with the language and APIs, similar to having a REPL in
other languages. I know that, possibly due to resource constraints,
Sun is working exclusively on a compiler for the language and the
interpreter is not being maintained.
a) is this a "final" decision?
b) are there fundamental technical reasons that prevent a fully-
compatible interpreter to be written (perhaps related to language
changes during the specification process)?

2) Does the desktop team have a development plan for the Scenegraph
project outside of its important support role for JavaFX Script?

3) (Minor issue) Can we have a rock-solid commitment from the FX team
that _all_ FX demos hosted by Sun will be pack 200'd? This is a minor
nit, but I get really annoyed waiting a full minute for a spinning box
to appear on-screen.

4) When the runtime mailing lists were still public, there was
discussion of support for integration with external data formats, like
XML, JSON, and integration with data structures like JDBC's result
set. What are the plans in those areas?

5) The JRE includes a preferences API, but for webstart apps I've yet
to see a solid solution regarding local (client) preferences and data
storage. What will FX have to offer in that area?

6) Will FX applets and webstart apps require signing? Many of the
demos I've seen so far have, and I'm wondering why. Granting "all
permissions" to an application signed by "Joshy" worries me a
little :).

7) How does Sun plan to provide for/enable a market aimed at third-
party FX-enabled (commercial and open source) components? The Swing
market has always seemed fractured to me, in comparison to the fabled
ActiveX/VB component market of the 90's.

All for now. Thanks!
Patrick

Jess Holle

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Nov 25, 2008, 7:30:23 AM11/25/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
  1. When is the designer tool for FX coming out?
  2. Will Java 6 Update 11 and 12 attempt to "finish the job" on Java desktop quality?
    • Java 6 Update 10 was a big step forward, but there's still a lot of big ticket bugs out there in this area.  For instance, at least half of the top 25 bugs at http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/top25_bugs.do are Java desktop or applet bugs.  Some of the bugs listed here have been open all but forever and/or have a huge impact, e.g. 6578753, 4330950, etc.  There are plenty of nasty desktop Java bugs (and HTTP(S) client issues) outside the top 25 as well.

That's it for now.

--
Jess Holle

carljmosca

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Nov 25, 2008, 8:25:44 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
I add my vote for this question and add will JSR-295 and JSR-296 be
available (via the designer)?

Weiqi Gao

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Nov 25, 2008, 8:56:03 AM11/25/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
sherod wrote:
> The "This ain't your Dad's Java" podcast title for today was "The one
> before the launch" and the marketing team have been tweeting all week
> about various prep things.

Do you have a link?

Googling "twitter thisaintyourdadsjava" go me here:

http://twitter.com/maybeimright

> It's going to be the 2nd of December.

Are you sure?

Tacit acknowledgment from joshy on this list notwithstanding, the
official press (you know, magazines with journalists and columnists that
verify news reports with sources inside companies) still is mum about
the date.

The closest date I've seen is from this InfoWorld piece (report from
Adobe MAX):


http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/11/18/JavaFX-RIA-technology-almost-ready_1.html?source=rss&url=http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/11/18/JavaFX-RIA-technology-almost-ready_1.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/javafx

where Sun VP Java Marketing Eric Klein, who I believe is one of the
hosts of the "Ain't Your Dad" potcast, put the time at "end of year 2008."

Bill Robertson

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Nov 25, 2008, 9:22:10 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
Back on topic...

How big of a download do you anticipate for the javafx runtime? Will
you be taking advantage of pack200 to minimize it, or will that
require the application distributor to know how to do? (and therefore
fail to do making download times suck? (and hurting the reputation of
the product? (no I've never really programmed in lisp)))

Will there be a standard place to download from or will an application
provider need to self host? (I have long forgotten the rules for jar
downloads in the applet scenario).

Swing suffered because it could break if the user ran a different
JVM. Is JavaFX sufficiently independent of JVM library versions, or
does it just have a lot of nasty code under the hood to paper over
differences? i.e. will it break when Java 7 comes out?

Is there a full screen mode? e.g. for kiosks

How true is the representation across platforms? Linux, Windows,
Mac? What about fonts?

Matt Scully

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Nov 25, 2008, 9:31:46 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
I just listened to the latest podcast of "Ain't your dad's..." and
they are now saying that December 2nd isn't necessarily a firm date,
but that it may be a few days later. Nevertheless, it does sound like
it will be that first week in December (of course, "nothing firm"
means it could be later as well).

--matt

On Nov 25, 7:56 am, Weiqi Gao <weiqi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> sherod wrote:
> > The "This ain't your Dad's Java" podcast title for today was "The one
> > before the launch" and the marketing team have been tweeting all week
> > about various prep things.
>
> Do you have a link?
>
> Googling "twitter thisaintyourdadsjava" go me here:
>
>    http://twitter.com/maybeimright
>
> > It's going to be the 2nd of December.
>
> Are you sure?
>
> Tacit acknowledgment from joshy on this list notwithstanding, the
> official press (you know, magazines with journalists and columnists that
> verify news reports with sources inside companies) still is mum about
> the date.
>
> The closest date I've seen is from this InfoWorld piece (report from
> Adobe MAX):
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/11/18/JavaFX-RIA-technology-almos...
>
> or
>
>    http://tinyurl.com/javafx
>
> where Sun VP Java Marketing Eric Klein, who I believe is one of the
> hosts of the "Ain't Your Dad" potcast, put the time at "end of year 2008."
>
> --
> Weiqi Gao
> weiqi...@gmail.comhttp://www.weiqigao.com/blog/

BoD

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Nov 25, 2008, 10:07:28 AM11/25/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
mbien wrote:
> On Nov 24, 7:53 pm, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's the purpose of reviving the applet tag which was deprecated by
>> W3C 9 years ago?http://jfx.wikia.com/wiki/Applet_Example
>>
> object tag works too...
>

But more importantly: who cares ? :)
<applet>, or <object>, or <whatever>... Is this really worth debating?


BoD

Casper Bang

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Nov 25, 2008, 11:44:26 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
Well pardon me for wanting a clean, clear and consistent deployment
model in my browser, without necessarily needing JavaScript to
generate custom HTML - Flash doesn't need that after all. I can only
guess you never experienced an applet which only works in some browser/
OS configurations due to convoluted deployment?

/Casper

Brian Reilly

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Nov 25, 2008, 11:50:16 AM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
A banner or javafx.com currently says, "Save the Date! Java FX 1.0
Launch on Dec 4, 2008".

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 25, 2008, 12:36:24 PM11/25/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
The javascript deployment library is specifically meant to address
applets that only work in some browsers. Lots of browsers have bugs
in the way they interact with applets. Our deployment library is
designed to work around these bugs. If you restrict your users to IE7/
FF3 + JavaSE 6u10 then you probably don't need this library. But to
support anything outside of this matrix means dealing with the reality
of modern browsers, and having a javascript library take care of this
for you is much more desirable than doing it by hand. This is the same
reason that libraries like jquery and prototype exist.

- J

Mark Fortner

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Nov 25, 2008, 12:49:03 PM11/25/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
I seem to recall a JSP tag that dealt with this situation:

http://www.java2s.com/Code/Java/JSP/JSPandApplet.htm

Mark
--
Mark Fortner

blog: http://feeds.feedburner.com/jroller/ideafactory

Alexey Zinger

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Nov 25, 2008, 2:24:49 PM11/25/08
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GWT to the rescue! :)

Alexey
2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS)
1992 Kawasaki EX500
http://azinger.blogspot.com
http://bsheet.sourceforge.net
http://wcollage.sourceforge.net


--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 25, 2008, 3:35:28 PM11/25/08
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I sure am glad we have a javascript free solution like GWT. No
Javascript there! :)

Patrick Wright

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Nov 25, 2008, 4:31:58 PM11/25/08
to The Java Posse


On Nov 25, 5:50 pm, Brian Reilly <brian.irei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A banner or javafx.com currently says, "Save the Date! Java FX 1.0
> Launch on Dec 4, 2008".

You visited _that_ website? Why, good heavens, why?

;)

Patrick

sherod

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Nov 25, 2008, 7:48:35 PM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
Flash used to need convuluted tags :)

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=tn_4150
> > BoD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

sherod

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Nov 25, 2008, 7:49:30 PM11/25/08
to The Java Posse
You are right, I was wrong, I can't believe something that I heard off
marketing people turned out to be incorrect!!

That *never* happens in my experience.

*grin*

On Nov 26, 12:56 am, Weiqi Gao <weiqi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> sherod wrote:
> > The "This ain't your Dad's Java" podcast title for today was "The one
> > before the launch" and the marketing team have been tweeting all week
> > about various prep things.
>
> Do you have a link?
>
> Googling "twitter thisaintyourdadsjava" go me here:
>
>    http://twitter.com/maybeimright
>
> > It's going to be the 2nd of December.
>
> Are you sure?
>
> Tacit acknowledgment from joshy on this list notwithstanding, the
> official press (you know, magazines with journalists and columnists that
> verify news reports with sources inside companies) still is mum about
> the date.
>
> The closest date I've seen is from this InfoWorld piece (report from
> Adobe MAX):
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/11/18/JavaFX-RIA-technology-almos...
>
> or
>
>    http://tinyurl.com/javafx
>
> where Sun VP Java Marketing Eric Klein, who I believe is one of the
> hosts of the "Ain't Your Dad" potcast, put the time at "end of year 2008."
>
> --
> Weiqi Gao
> weiqi...@gmail.comhttp://www.weiqigao.com/blog/

kibitzer

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Nov 26, 2008, 4:33:14 PM11/26/08
to The Java Posse
OK, after yesterdays Sun Developer Days event in Melbourne I'd like to
know:
* what's the practical, actual difference between FX Desktop, FX
Mobile and FX TV?
* the proposition seems to be that FX is THE UI build tool for all
devices: desktop, laptop, mobile, TV, GPRS, whatever. Do they mean in
terms of programming paradigms, or that one UI can be built that suits
all devices (which is clearly questionable)
* they mentioned a number of times taking things from Illustrator and
importing them into FX. Is that a dream or a practical, actual
reality? (i.e., is there a tool for this?)

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 26, 2008, 5:22:13 PM11/26/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
I'll be brief since we will have much more detailed answers in next
weeks launch on the 4th, but are a few quick answers:
On Nov 26, 2008, at 1:33 PM, kibitzer wrote:

>
> OK, after yesterdays Sun Developer Days event in Melbourne I'd like to
> know:
> * what's the practical, actual difference between FX Desktop, FX
> Mobile and FX TV?

The JavaFX APIs have profiles. The common profile works on all
platforms, and includes basic graphics support, the language runtime,
application model, etc. The desktop profile includes Swing and
advanced effects that require pixelshaders (blur, dropshadow, etc.).
The mobile and TV profiles are not yet public, but they will include
functionality specific to those platforms.

> * the proposition seems to be that FX is THE UI build tool for all
> devices: desktop, laptop, mobile, TV, GPRS, whatever. Do they mean in
> terms of programming paradigms, or that one UI can be built that suits
> all devices (which is clearly questionable)

Both. You can use the same SDK, same language, and same set of APIs
on all platforms. If you want you can make a single app run on all
platforms identically, or you can introduce custom logic for different
platforms.

> * they mentioned a number of times taking things from Illustrator and
> importing them into FX. Is that a dream or a practical, actual
> reality? (i.e., is there a tool for this?)

The JavaFX Production Suite (formerly Project Nile) lets you export
from Illustrator and Photoshop using native plugins. This works quite
well. I've used it in several samples that you'll see next week.

Thanks and be sure to email if you have any other questions. Or email
Dick Wall since he'll be interviewing me soon at Devoxx.

- J

>
> >

Andres Almiray

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Nov 26, 2008, 5:51:03 PM11/26/08
to The Java Posse
1. What will be the license terms? currently we have a mix of GPL and
proprietary licenses (not really enterprise ready as they seem to
promote it)
2. Where are the promised threading advancements?
3. Will Java be able to call JavaFX without an ugly bridge
(javax.script)?
* ties into Mikael Grev -> why reinvent the wheel yet again when
Groovy is capable of yielding similar results
* caveat: Groovy can't run in mobile devices yet but it does it
wonderfully on desktop/server machines =)
4. Will JavaFX provide a full set of Swing component wrappers (JTable,
JTree et al)?
* what about other swing suites (jide, flamingo, etc) ?
5. Is Chris Olivier still on the team?

Neil Bartlett

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Nov 27, 2008, 4:16:38 AM11/27/08
to The Java Posse
I'm curious when we will see a JSR for JavaFX. Does Sun intend to
standardise the JavaFX Script language and the related JVM changes
through the JCP so that other Java vendors (e.g. IBM, Oracle, Apache)
can build compliant implementations too?

caultonpos

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Dec 1, 2008, 2:13:26 PM12/1/08
to The Java Posse
1) How is the performance tuning of Java FX going?

2) Will is the support of embedding Java Fx panels into Swing
applications be fully (better) supported?

I ask as I am developing an open source EMR and have a rich set of
functionality which could be further enhanced with some JavaFx
graphics.
(see http://www.patientos.org/software/index.html for screenshots)

I did have a patient banner bar using JavaFx embedded at one point
with the older java fx library (script not compiled) but it was too
slow to be feasible in production.

I am interested down the road to use JavaFx on mobile devices but I
must say I would rather write scripts in Java, not a scripting
language, the latter promotes too many runtime syntax errors that
could have been caught at compile time. Having to switch to a new non-
Eclipse editor isnt great. Productivity is the key.

Still it is an interesting technology and I can see some possibilities
for killer functionality in my application.

Greg

sherod

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Dec 1, 2008, 7:35:13 PM12/1/08
to The Java Posse
You might be interested to know that an Eclipse Plugin is in the works
from Sun relating to JavaFX

Joshua Marinacci

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Dec 1, 2008, 7:37:10 PM12/1/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
shhhhhhhhh!

Andres Almiray

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Dec 1, 2008, 7:43:03 PM12/1/08
to The Java Posse
Greg,

Perhaps JMatter (http://jmatter.org) is a better alternative for that
particular domain =)

On Dec 1, 11:13 am, caultonpos <caulton...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) How is the performance tuning of Java FX going?
>
> 2) Will is the support of embedding Java Fx panels into Swing
> applications be fully (better) supported?
>
> I ask as I am developing an open source EMR and have a rich set of
> functionality which could be further enhanced with some JavaFx
> graphics.
> (seehttp://www.patientos.org/software/index.htmlfor screenshots)

Jess Holle

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Dec 1, 2008, 7:52:21 PM12/1/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
  1. How much of JavaFX's special capability will be available from plain 'ole Java via documented APIs?
    • Scene graph?  Binding?  Etc...
  2. Will the new codec's (On2, native, etc) be available from plain 'ole Java as well as JavaFX?
[I have nothing against the idea of JavaFX per se -- there's a time and a place for everything, but conversely there's a time and a place for plain 'ole Java and it wouldn't seem right to be forced into JavaFX for many of these things.  You'd expect to be able to just call some well-documented Java APIs.]

--
Jess Holle

Jess Holle

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Dec 1, 2008, 7:54:41 PM12/1/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Oh... I almost forgot.

What's the estimated time of release of the integrated 2/3D scene graph
for JavaFX?

--
Jess Holle

sherod

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Dec 1, 2008, 7:58:15 PM12/1/08
to The Java Posse
Don't blame me, blame your marketing department - They can't keep
their mouths shut. - :o)
> >> Greg- Hide quoted text -

Mark Derricutt

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Dec 1, 2008, 8:12:27 PM12/1/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
No no - we can blame you for listening to their podcast :)

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:58 PM, sherod <steven...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't blame me, blame your marketing department - They can't keep
> their mouths shut. - :o)

--
"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized
code." -- Bill Harlan

sherod

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Dec 1, 2008, 10:23:21 PM12/1/08
to The Java Posse
It was late, I'd been drinking, one thing lead to another.... :o)

On Dec 2, 12:12 pm, "Mark Derricutt" <m...@talios.com> wrote:
> No no - we can blame you for listening to their podcast :)
>

Doug Holton

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Dec 2, 2008, 12:30:34 AM12/2/08
to The Java Posse
I also am interested in when a javafx designer will be available.

Also, how exactly do you embed swing controls in a javafx stage now?
The only examples I can find online don't work anymore.

Lastly, will javafx ever have support for things like traits/mixins/
structural subtyping or extension methods. Things like draggable/
resizable/clickable nodes would be much easier to do. You could take
an svg image, convert to javafx code automatically, and then just
extend the base class to make the parts draggable for example.

osbald

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Dec 2, 2008, 6:11:25 AM12/2/08
to The Java Posse
I'd like to know more about the bridge between Swing and JavaFX too -
although I'm slightly more concerned about how well node based and MVC/
ui delegate based components will sit together side-by-side. Without
delegates, action maps, input maps etc.. (the feel bits of the L&F)
will JavaFX component ever really 'fit' into the Swing world?. Will
you be able to layout JavaFX components in say GroupLayout and keep
your labels aligned (grid-based layout). Know they intend to express
all Swing Components as nodes for JavaFXs benefit but what's happening
in the other direction? Will you be able to bind trees & tables in
JavaFX?

Will it be possible to use a FXD file from Swing, can I have a FXDIcon
to apply to a JLabel or AbstractAction?

Similarly I've reservations about the tight declarative syntax of
JavaFX tends to couple all the view and controller logic all together
in a single script. The notions of MVV, MVP and Presentation Model
appear to get thrown out of the window (do you still have models?) If
so is JavaFX only really good for small apps and demos? not
professional saleable products. Language is so far unproven in this
respect, have you traded ease-of-use for but-nightmare-maintenance.
Pearl-ism programming? How do you unit test and prove JavaFX
components?

Also I'd like to know if we'll see a Swing API for scenegraph, people
have expressed doubts that the API currently exposed to Java is too
low level to be of any practical use to Swing developers
http://forums.java.net/jive/message.jspa?messageID=282828#282828. Will
the JavaFX web browser exposed an accessible API to Swing/Java.. will
they release it as a stand-alone download, or do we have to wait until
JDK 7 (or work out how to extract it from the SDK ourselves)?


Joshua Marinacci

unread,
Dec 2, 2008, 1:18:48 PM12/2/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
We do have plans to let the scenegraph and media (Java Media Component
or JMC) have Java apis, but we don't have any public details right now
and I can't say when we will. Right now I'm talking about JavaFX.

Binding will never be available from Java because that's a part of the
JavaFX Script language itself. That said, I had a really great
conversation with Charles from JRuby and some .NET guys at OreDev
about how to tackle the issue of language object interoperability, so
I suspect we will eventually be able to hook into JavaFX Script's
bound variables from other languages. Don't expect anything in the
near future, however.

Right now our publicity focus is on JavaFX. We will talk more about
Java and Java 7 at JavaOne in May, which is a more appropriate venue.

-j

On Dec 1, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Jess Holle wrote:

> 1. How much of JavaFX's special capability will be available from
> plain 'ole Java via documented APIs?
> * Scene graph? Binding? Etc...
> 2. Will the new codec's (On2, native, etc) be available from plain

Joshua Marinacci

unread,
Dec 2, 2008, 1:21:00 PM12/2/08
to java...@googlegroups.com

On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:30 PM, Doug Holton wrote:

>
> I also am interested in when a javafx designer will be available.
>
> Also, how exactly do you embed swing controls in a javafx stage now?
> The only examples I can find online don't work anymore.

The api has been simplified. Essentially

var comp = new MyJavaSwingComponent();
var node = SwingComponent.wrap(comp);

now you have a node that you can put in your scene, animation, shear,
rotate, fade etc.


> Lastly, will javafx ever have support for things like traits/mixins/
> structural subtyping or extension methods. Things like draggable/
> resizable/clickable nodes would be much easier to do. You could take
> an svg image, convert to javafx code automatically, and then just
> extend the base class to make the parts draggable for example.

I'd ask these questions on the openjfx-compiler mailing list after the
release on thursday. Today you can import graphics using the
ProductionSuite as an FXZ file, subclass it, and add behavior. Or add
behavior by setting the onMouse* functions directly, since they are
attribute functions.

-j

osbald

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Dec 2, 2008, 6:40:56 PM12/2/08
to The Java Posse
> We do have plans to let the scenegraph and media (Java Media Component  
> or JMC) have Java apis, but we don't have any public details right now  
> and I can't say when we will.

> Right now our publicity focus is on JavaFX. We will talk more about  
> Java and Java 7 at JavaOne in May, which is a more appropriate venue.
>

Are you serious? wasn't only a few weeks ago you guys were trying to
tell us JavaFX != JavaFX Script and JavaFX was good for Swing too and
was going to blow us away. Are you saying any discussion about how to
leverage JavaFX goodies from Swing is off the table till the second
half of next year (if then)? So much for dispelling the myths about
CCD and not continuing to stonewall your existing Swing/Enterprise
developers with lofty indifference.

Joshua Marinacci

unread,
Dec 2, 2008, 7:27:20 PM12/2/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
My blog called "JavaFX != JavaFX Script" over a year ago, actually,
and some details have changed. (though the core awesomenesss of what
is now called JavaSE 6 update 10 has not changed).

Yes, a week or two ago I did talk about how Swing & Enterprise is
still a focus, and that's still true. However, Sun can only launch one
thing at a time and still get press (much like any company, even
Apple). A few weeks ago we talked about JavaSE 6 update 10. Then
NetBeans 6.5. Now it's JavaFX. Until we have something to actually
announce about cool new Swing features we probably won't talk about it.

All that said, there are two samples you'll see on Thursday which show
you how to mix existing Swing components inside of a JavaFX scene, and
how to use JavaFX components inside of a Swing Frame. So you can
definitely use them together to do cool things. And that's something
we are talking about today (well, thursday). What we aren't talking
about (yet) is stuff coming in Java 7. One thing at a time. (we're
tired!)

And BTW, I want to thank you all for your passionate feedback. We do
listen and it does affect our development. We appreciate it. It takes
passionate people to build a great platform.

- Josh

DAemon

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Dec 2, 2008, 7:36:03 PM12/2/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Uh, I just wanted to point out that JavaFX, even 'though it's being
released at a 1.0 is by no means a complete technology, nor is it a
mature technology. Several key parts of JavaFX, including the
much-touted 3D support, have yet to be included, because they weren't
stable enough to go into the 1.0.

The fact that the Java APIs aren't finished isn't about spitting in
the face of existing developers, it's about getting a functional
version of JavaFX out there with the ability to grow and develop over
time. You can't get everything into a 1.0, otherwise you'd never
release.

Personally, I'm really excited about JavaFX. I'm not a Swing
developer, I find the way it works too complex and powerful, and
always wind up shooting myself in the foot, and so I'm looking forward
to trying out a new way of doing UI design (and one that's much
friendlier to my graphic designer partner, as well).

Just on a side note, this thread would be a lot easier to read (and
possibly more useful) if people kept on topic - sensible questions
about JavaFX - rather than being full of the developer equivalent of
'omfg ur killin swing u dont care about all us java devs liek woah wtf
r u doin r u liek stoopid or sumfing?'

Just throwing it out there.

2008/12/3 osbald <osb...@gmail.com>:

Mark Derricutt

unread,
Dec 2, 2008, 7:41:58 PM12/2/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Agreed - I also think the final, and most important question is: Will
knowing JavaFX get me laid? And if so, will it be more than if I knew
Silverlight or Flash? :)

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:36 PM, DAemon <forsake...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 'omfg ur killin swing u dont care about all us java devs liek woah wtf
> r u doin r u liek stoopid or sumfing?'

--

sherod

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Dec 2, 2008, 9:52:43 PM12/2/08
to The Java Posse
No technology on earth is able to accomplish this..... :o)

.On Dec 3, 11:41 am, "Mark Derricutt" <m...@talios.com> wrote:
.> Agreed - I also think the final, and most important question is:
 Will
.> knowing JavaFX get me laid? And if so, will it be more than if I
knew
>. Silverlight or Flash? :)

Joshua Marinacci

unread,
Dec 3, 2008, 12:03:45 AM12/3/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Very well said. What we are releasing on Thursday is the beginning of
something, not the end. Something which I find is very exciting. I
hope you will as well.

- j

Mark Derricutt

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Dec 3, 2008, 12:17:36 AM12/3/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Tomorrow is Thursday (at least in New Zealand) - pls be releasing then ;)


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Joshua Marinacci <jos...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very well said. What we are releasing on Thursday is the beginning of
something, not the end. Something which I find is very exciting. I
hope you will as well.

Joshua Marinacci

unread,
Dec 3, 2008, 12:24:35 AM12/3/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Sorry. Thursday morning California time. I'm gonna have a busy day. :)

osbald

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Dec 3, 2008, 9:34:04 AM12/3/08
to The Java Posse

> 'omfg ur killin swing u dont care about all us java devs liek woah wtf
> r u doin r u liek stoopid or sumfing?'
>

Where'd you get that from? All I was doing was expressing
disappointment that the promises made my Josh and Rbair just the other
week that Swing & enterprise development was still important to them,
JavaFX had to lot to offer me as a Swing developer and they're be more
news 'soon'. If anyone's 'stoopid' here it's me believing that 'soon'
meant at Devoxx and not sometime next year (maybe). If you're saying
JavaFX 1.0 has nothing practical to offer Swing developers and you
don't even want to talk about it then whatever - business as usual.
Excuse me for being amused that their rebuttal of following Conference
Driven Design (CDD) to be we (might) talk about that at Java One next
year.. No doubt I'll have plenty of opportunities to spread my
clearly insane unanswered questions and concerns (aka JavaFX
hatemongering) elsewhere over the next few weeks. EOL.

Does the binding support in JavaFX Script require support from the
objects being bound? What I'd want to know here is whether I can bind
to 'pure' domain objects returned from some remote service bean. The
issue here is that the domain objects won't and arguably shouldn't
contain any logic to support the client facing binding soloution.
Topic being touched upon elsewhere today:
http://www.greggbolinger.com/blog/2008/12/02/1228254180000.html . Is
their anything in the pipeline to make this seemless, because with the
current version of Java it appears all your doing in trading one set
of binding glue code in the component models for another in domain
object wrappers and bytecode manipulation? What does JavaFX have to
offer in terms of supporting the (asynchronous) Internet side of the
RIA equation?

Mark Derricutt

unread,
Dec 3, 2008, 7:29:27 PM12/3/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
Will the JavaFX launch be streamed?  If so - will it be streamed using a JavaFX based player? :)  Are is there a known URL (ustream?) for it?

Also - what time is the launch/stream?  Would love to have my kiwi self watch the launch live rather than in the morning :)


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:34 AM, osbald <osb...@gmail.com> wrote:


> 'omfg ur killin swing u dont care about all us java devs liek woah wtf
> r u doin r u liek stoopid or sumfing?'
>

Message has been deleted

Joshua Marinacci

unread,
Dec 4, 2008, 11:48:10 AM12/4/08
to java...@googlegroups.com
We are having some webserver issues. It's causing the problem you are
seeing. Please wait a bit. Sorry for the delay. I know you all want to
play with FX right now. :)

On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:04 AM, hendo wrote:

>
> Quality release then...
>
> Java Plug-in 1.6.0_10
> Using JRE version 1.6.0_10 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
> ....
> Validating http://dl.javafx.com/javafx-rt__V1.0.0.jar , version
> null...
> ....
> Validating http://www.javafx.com/samples/EffectsPlayground/webstart/EffectsPlayground.jar
> , version null...
> exception: null.
> java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
> at sun.security.provider.certpath.OCSPChecker.check(Unknown Source)
> at
> sun.security.provider.certpath.PKIXMasterCertPathValidator.validate
> (Unknown Source)
> at sun.security.provider.certpath.PKIXCertPathValidator.doValidate
> (Unknown Source)
> at
> sun.security.provider.certpath.PKIXCertPathValidator.engineValidate
> (Unknown Source)
> at java.security.cert.CertPathValidator.validate(Unknown Source)
> at sun.security.validator.PKIXValidator.doValidate(Unknown Source)
> at sun.security.validator.PKIXValidator.doValidate(Unknown Source)
> at sun.security.validator.PKIXValidator.engineValidate(Unknown
> Source)
> at sun.security.validator.Validator.validate(Unknown Source)
> at sun.security.validator.Validator.validate(Unknown Source)
> at com.sun.deploy.security.TrustDecider.isAllPermissionGranted
> (Unknown Source)
> at com.sun.javaws.security.AppPolicy.grantUnrestrictedAccess(Unknown
> Source)
> at com.sun.javaws.LaunchDownload.checkSignedResourcesHelper(Unknown
> Source)
> at com.sun.javaws.LaunchDownload.checkSignedResources(Unknown Source)
> at sun.plugin2.applet.JNLP2Manager.prepareLaunchFile(Unknown Source)
> at sun.plugin2.applet.JNLP2Manager.loadJarFiles(Unknown Source)
> at sun.plugin2.applet.Plugin2Manager$AppletExecutionRunnable.run
> (Unknown Source)
> at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
> Exception: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
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