Dick's Apple vs Samsung comments

[phil swenson]

First, let me say I think software patents should be abolished or at the very least the patent terms should be much shorter given the fast moving nature of the software business.

Dick mentioned that Apple copied Xerox Parc and seemed to indicate it was the same thing as Samsung copying Apple.  I just saw this link the other day on the subject:  http://obamapacman.com/2010/03/myth-copyright-theft-apple-stole-gui-from-xerox-parc-alto/  Basically, Apple got permission from Xerox to use the technology and Xerox was compensated.

IMO Samsung was plain stupid.  I don't feel bad for them as given the current laws, they asked for this - they copied so much that that they made it easy for the jury.  I don't know how much of the copying images made it's way to the trial, but they have copied everything from the iPhone 3GS metal bezel to the iPhone's tiny block power supply to the box the phone comes in.

Search google images for "samsung copying apple" and you can see:

http://www.phonedog.com/2012/08/12/do-you-think-samsung-copied-apple/

http://obamapacman.com/2011/09/samsung-samsung-galaxy-s-2-charger-copied-iphone/

http://cdn.mactrast.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Samsung-Apple-Cable-Copy.jpg

http://whatblag.com/2011/04/18/apple-suing-samsung-did-the-nexus-s-copy-the-iphone/

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/06/apple-samsung-patent-lawsuit-icons/

It's pretty pathetic.

BTW:  Dick did make a good point on Apple copying the Android Notifications.  I don't know if it's illegal though (is that patented?)

[Oscar Hsieh]

Patent 12/363,325(Notification of mobile device event) is not yet approved.

Most people support Samsung because either they don't like US patent system or they mistakenly think Samsung = Android.

Most tech blogs share little sympathy to Samsung as it is pretty obvious that Samsung deliberately copied Apple in the early days.  

I dont want to get into the political fight as some people here are more biased than even those commenters on theverge.

People should look at this more positively.  Samsung's Galaxy S3 and Note are a good example that Samsung's senior management team should trust their engineers' ability to design great devices.

By the way, if you are interested there is a good article on theVerge about Apple's pinch and zoom patent and how Google walk around it

http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/30/3279628/apple-pinch-to-zoom-patent-myth

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[Jon Kiparsky]

>

Most people support Samsung because either they don't like US patent system or they mistakenly think Samsung = Android.

I think it's reasonable to suppose that Apple is using or wants to use Samsung as a proxy for Google. If the violations are obvious, then it's a good way to get a judgement on record, to grease the slippery slope a little. If you're Apple, you don't want to charge up against google straight off, you want to build up a set of rulings that you can point to when you do go after them.

[Zankan Hsieh]

I am sure apple wants to go after google but that does not change the fact that It is not what this case is about.  Is it ok for us to deny B simply because B might lead to C?

Personally I think it's unlikely we will see apple suing google on android because the chance to win is low and even if apple could win, what is the return?  Google does not make any money out of android

[bgoggin]

Well said. I'm a big fan of Dick Wall, but I think he's way too harsh on Apple. No one looking at the iOS notification feature would mistakenly think they were looking at a Samsung product. The same cannot be said about Samsung's copying. There was evidence that consumers returned Samsung tablets because they mistakenly thought they had bought an iPad.

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 01:48:02 +0200, bgoggin <wjgo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well said. I'm a big fan of Dick Wall, but I think he's way too harsh on
> Apple. No one looking at the iOS notification feature would mistakenly
> think they were looking at a Samsung product. The same cannot be said
> about
> Samsung's copying.

Can you provide a concrete example?

> There was evidence that consumers returned Samsung
> tablets because they mistakenly thought they had bought an iPad.

Do you mean that Samsung printed "iPad" on the tabled packaging?


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[Jess Holle]

Personally I'd long since reached the same conclusion as Dick, i.e. that
I really shouldn't buy any more Apple products.

That said, I won't stand in the way of anyone else (including my wife)
buying them.

My reasons include their litigious patent suit stuff, but that's just
piece. I'm also voting with my feet against their heavily walled garden
approach to applications for the iPhone and iPad -- and whatever else
they can force in that direction apparently (e.g. shipping the Mac Mini
without a CD/DVD drive and trying to nudge it in the same direction...).

I see Apple as the new Microsoft -- but worse in that with Microsoft you
were always free to produce and market your app in their effective
monopoly space (Windows) whereas Apple doesn't want you to have that
much freedom.

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[Casper Bang]

I see Apple as the new Microsoft -- but worse in that with Microsoft you
were always free to produce and market your app in their effective
monopoly space (Windows) whereas Apple doesn't want you to have that
much freedom.

I agree with that analysis, and it's a deeply troubling aspect of Apple that seems buried deep down in its DNA. For instance, Apple is clearly not satisfied with the normal provider supply-chain and prefers to assimilate what it can get away with. This is why I am rooting for Samsung, they may let themselves get inspired, but they have a wonderful "let's throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks" attitude, giving people a choice rather than treating people as sheep.

Apple now going after the Galaxy S3 (my current phone, and very different than the iPhone) is just ridiculousness. I propose we put all lawyers on some remote island and raise a contamination zone.

[phil swenson]

Using the optical drive as an example doesn't help your case IMO.  People bitched when apple ditched the floppy drive.  I look at PCs and still see the crappy old VGA connector.  Sometimes you have to ditch what is obviously on it's way out.  Give the old tech a nudge out the door.

As for iOS, I think it's simple.  Apple wants its devices to be appliances.  People shouldn't have to worry about their devices degrading into a POS.  This is to avoid the horror that is the standard PC. I am appalled every time I turn on my in-laws PC.  There must be 5 pop ups from pre-installed crapware.  The PC is overloaded with pure junk.  Their printers never work.  The system is always bogged down.

Apple wants to sell well functioning devices that people aren't scared of and can rely on.  They want seamless integration (well with OS X and iTunes anyway). 

There is a downside though.  Apple rejects some apps.  You can't do true background apps (Apple can of course).  You have to trust Apple and their fickle rules.  You have to wait longer for features than Android as Apple is very careful about what they do. 

Google sees android more like a PC than an appliance.  There are definite advantages to this.  You can make your phone do pretty much whatever you want and put whatever you want on it.  You have more power than iOS.  They are very aggressive about adding features.  You get more hardware options.

But, since google is so hands off - the carriers can do whatever they like.  And they do.  They add their own crapware. 

Android devices are much more likely to get bogged down and have their battery sucked by misbehaving apps (hence all the task killers in Play).  Malware is more common.

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[phil swenson]

" Apple is clearly not satisfied with the normal provider supply-chain and prefers to assimilate what it can get away with. "

What do you mean?

[Casper Bang]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:06:14 PM UTC+2, phil swenson wrote:

" Apple is clearly not satisfied with the normal provider supply-chain and prefers to assimilate what it can get away with. "

What do you mean?

I'm referring to the fact, that Apple tends to think very wide it's quest for dominance and loves when it can secure new exclusive parts (I.e. paying Intel to get first batch of wafers) and even better when it can buy a company and claim exclusivity. This is very different than Microsoft, which may sell PC periphials etc. but generally has no problem living in an ecosystem they don't control 100% (I.e. it is a hell of a lot easier installing Linux on my Dell laptop than my Macbook Air).

Eventually Apple will bury themselves by burning too many bridges - I.e. imagine if Samsung cuts off their supply of NAND chips, SSD drives, IPS panels etc.?!

[phil swenson]

I think I saw something about Apple and Qualcomm trying to get exclusive access to a chip and failing.  But other than that haven't seen this issue.  You have a source?

Apple tries to multi-source all their components that they can.  LG, Sharp, and Samsung makes their displays for example.

My guess is Apple wants to wean itself off of samsung.  I can't imagine Samsung wants to ditch apple though - they sell billions worth of parts to apple every year.  Their stock would take a hit.

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[Oscar Hsieh]

1. Cromebook (and some if not most ultrabooks) does not have DVD drive neither.
2. Microsoft did reject WP7 apps
http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/04/01/microsoft.rejects.wp7.app.imagewind.despite.use/

And Windows 8 app store will launch soon.

By the way, I have MBA, iphone, ipad and an acer that dualboot to win7 and linux and a ubuntu desktop server.  IPhone and IPad do have strong walled garden and it definitely not for everyone. Thanks to Android Apple does not reject apps without good reason these days.

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[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Eventually Apple will bury themselves by burning too many bridges - I.e. imagine if Samsung cuts off their supply of NAND chips, SSD drives, IPS panels etc.?!

Agreed. I think their expansion strategy is unsustainable and they are on the wrong side of history. If you think about it, not much has changed, they are doing exactly what they attempted to do 20-30 years ago: offer a completely closed and 100% Apple controlled ecosystem. The attempt failed pretty quickly back then because of the rise of Microsoft and of custom and cheap PC's.

They are being more successful this time around because they have a few great and very successful products that netted them a large amount of cash, so the main difference is that they can try this failed strategy for longer, but in the end, it will fail again. The cash and the court victories against Samsung are just minor battles that won't change the outcome of this war in the long run.

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[Oscar Hsieh]

1. What company did Apple buy to get exclusivity?
2. Canonical has partnership with Dell so your comparison is probably unfair.
    By the way, it does not seem to be hard to install ubuntu on MBA
    http://ubuntuguide.net/how-to-install-ubuntu-on-macbook-air-3-1-via-usb-flash-drive

a, Create two partitions on Macbook Air(following MBA in short) for Ubuntu file system and swap area.
b, Install rEFIt as a boot loader for select booting Mac OS or Ubuntu.
c, Download Ubuntu iso image file.
d, using mkisohybrid to create Live usb and simulate usb as CDROM.
e, access Ubuntu graphical installation guide via USB.
f, boot into Ubuntu and install drivers.

3. How is that a smart idea for Samsung to cut off Apple?  Samsung make Billions out of apple every year.  Besides, most Samsung's customers are also its competitors.  Talking about burning bridges ...

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[Jess Holle]

I was a huge Apple fan 20 years ago.  Their GUI was far more usable than Windows (it wasn't just a matter of who has the most eye candy like it is now) or anything else out there.  They had well documented APIs that anyone could use to write and market software on their devices.  Their hardware may have been single-sourced, but I never really had an issue with that as long as there was a compelling reason to buy it.  The software market was open to all in contrast to what they're trying to pull these days.

Now I can't see buying into any Apple products, with the possible exception of replacing my ancient iPod someday when it dies, though I'll certainly look around for a good alternative first.

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[Casper Bang]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:21:10 PM UTC+2, Oscar Hsieh wrote:

1. What company did Apple buy to get exclusivity? 

Intrinsity comes to mind as an example where Apple would rather sit on their own silicon rather than rely on COTS SoC designs from Nvidia, Quallcom, Marvell, TI and Samsung.

 

2. Canonical has partnership with Dell so your comparison is probably unfair.
    By the way, it does not seem to be hard to install ubuntu on MBA

The procedure has improved over time, but trust me, it's hard to get drivers and configurations to play nicely in the long run. Almost every time there are new packages available, stuff breaks and various setup scripts needs to run again.

 

3. How is that a smart idea for Samsung to cut off Apple?  Samsung make Billions out of apple every year.  Besides, most Samsung's customers are also its competitors.  Talking about burning bridges ...

A quick look at Samsung's gigantic product portfolio, suggests that Apple needs Samsung more than the other way around. Sure, Sammy would take a hit, but biting the hand that feeds you is generally a bad idea -  and it's entirely within Samsung's power to bite back.

[phil swenson]

I don't quite follow.  Are you talking software, hardware, or both?   Their hardware (the chips) is a combination of OTS parts + hiring companies to implement their SOC designs.

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[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

A quick look at Samsung's gigantic product portfolio, suggests that Apple needs Samsung more than the other way around.

Jonathan Ive has often said that Dieter Rams, the main designer of Braun products in the sixties, was one of the designers that influenced him the most.

It shows:

[phil swenson]

that's a great post Cedric.  But aren't you the one always defending the US patent system?

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[Vince O'Sullivan]

On Tuesday, 4 September 2012 00:48:03 UTC+1, bgoggin wrote:

There was evidence that consumers returned Samsung tablets because they mistakenly thought they had bought an iPad.

I don't believe that for a moment.  It sound about as likely as Apple publishing adverts showing their customers as being too stupid to operate their computers.