So... is Java 6 shipping on Windows?

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Rick

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Nov 2, 2007, 8:01:03 AM11/2/07
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Two questions:
What version of Java is shipping with XP?
What version of Java is shipping with Vista?

I know that 6 is available for download, but so far as I'm aware, most
(Windows) consumers still have 1.4 (and not even the most recent
version of that).

Keeping in mind that most people will only ever have the one that
shipped with their computer...

Danno

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Nov 2, 2007, 11:31:57 AM11/2/07
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ooooooookay.

You do know the issue is that Mac developers have to wait for Apple to
release Java 6. If Apple just gave up their codebase to OpenJDK,
release their version earlier if at all, or just let Sun include that
in their binary releases, then there would be no issue.

Window's users even though they have 1.4, they get a nice little icon
in the task manager that asks the user to upgrade to the latest
version of java. They could even go to java.com and install the
latest and greatest with ease. Apple users get crickets.

Oh and then there is Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon, *sniff*, I love you Gutsy
Gibbon! A simple apt-get or go to the package manager and java
paradise is ours.

So, all is not fair to Apple users.

Casper Bang

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Nov 2, 2007, 12:07:16 PM11/2/07
to The Java Posse
> So, all is not fair to Apple users.

Then again, if you choose something even more closed than oh say
Windows, aren't you kinda asking for these handcuffs? Fair or not,
that's where the irony kicks in.

/Casper

Calvin Hill

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Nov 2, 2007, 1:05:04 PM11/2/07
to java...@googlegroups.com
Are you talking about the JRE? Even so, I believe you have to download
it for both OS. The thing is, is that sun provides (or someone) the
jvm for windows.

Calvin

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 2, 2007, 4:04:35 PM11/2/07
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Well, since you asked.

Sun provides the JRE for Windows. Obviously Microsoft does not bundle
it with Windows XP or Vista, but Sun has deals with 9 of the top 10
PC manufacturers so that new PCs ship with the latest version of
Java. As of April (I think) this means they ship with Java 6. Also,
Java 1.4 and Java 1.5 have an auto-update feature that will keep
older PCs up to date. To further address the task of "getting a
recent JRE everywhere" the new Java Deployment Toolkit (part of the
now in beta Java 6 update N) will include javascripts and a new
installer to make it even easier to get an up to date JRE.

- Josh

remco

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Nov 3, 2007, 3:53:17 AM11/3/07
to The Java Posse
How is os-x more closed than Windows. That is complete b.... Are yuo a
ms astroturfer or something

Christian Catchpole

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Nov 3, 2007, 5:20:51 AM11/3/07
to The Java Posse
The problem with Java for desktop apps, is that while a certain
percentage of users may have a certain JRE on certain platforms, it is
no ubiquitous. And downloading the right one is just too much for a
double click install of a client app. So the solution has always been
to embed the JVM in the app. That ensures you get a 'working
version', but is wasteful, looses improvements of newer JREs and
defeats the purpose of a having JRE / App separation. I don't know if
there is a real solution. It's a shame realy. In a way it's good to
know that Apple have a JDK as standard. That's something in their
favor.

Message has been deleted

Casper Bang

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Nov 4, 2007, 12:05:41 AM11/4/07
to The Java Posse
On Nov 3, 8:53 am, remco <remco.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How is os-x more closed than Windows. That is complete b.... Are yuo a
> ms astroturfer or something

Who is in full control of everything from the physical devices (let's
use Motorola, no lets use PowerPC, no let's use Intel) to the OS and
software ecosystem (thou shall use Objective C)?

Who silently removes all 3'rd part software from its iPhones as part
of a simple firmware update?
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/desktop_mobile/another_brick_i...

Who tries to lock its iPod into working only with iTunes again and
again?
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7002612.stm

Who continues to (rather distastefully by now) mock competition?
http://www.dashes.com/anil/2007/10/smug-ugly.html

They are a secretive consumer electronics company in full control of
whatever they want, caring little about input from outside. That gives
them power but it also makes them pretty closed... something Java
developers have some to feel lately as well. No I don't hate Apple or
love Microsoft, both produce great stuff - and both step out of
bounds.

/Casper

remco

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Nov 4, 2007, 5:07:27 AM11/4/07
to The Java Posse

On Nov 4, 5:05 am, Casper Bang <c...@brunata.dk> wrote:
> On Nov 3, 8:53 am, remco <remco.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > How is os-x more closed than Windows. That is complete b.... Are you a


> > ms astroturfer or something
>
> Who is in full control of everything from the physical devices (let's
> use Motorola, no lets use PowerPC, no let's use Intel)

And how is that for windows? How does that work on mips or powepc for
you?
to the OS and
> software ecosystem (thou shall use Objective C)? (a open source compiler how open source is .net ?)
or c or Eiffel or python or scheme or ............. name your open
source language


>
> Who silently removes all 3'rd part software from its iPhones as part
> of a simple firmware update?http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/desktop_mobile/another_brick_i...

That is just what happens with all firmware updates you hack. Did you
ever hack something modems satellite receivers set top boxes how and
how about updating there firmware ...??


>
> Who tries to lock its iPod into working only with iTunes again and

> again?http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7002612.stm


>
> Who continues to (rather distastefully by now) mock competition?http://www.dashes.com/anil/2007/10/smug-ugly.html

what has that to do with being open? and what does Microsoft do to
competition and how does this little joke compare to that


>
> They are a secretive consumer electronics company in full control of
> whatever they want, caring little about input from outside. That gives
> them power but it also makes them pretty closed... something Java
> developers have some to feel lately as well. No I don't hate Apple or
> love Microsoft, both produce great stuff - and both step out of
> bounds.

The thing is that Microsoft gets convicted because they really step
out of bounds and apple only seems to irritate you personally and you
think that is just as bad?
When Microsoft is being open like for example with the winfs
filesystem how open are they ? Do they know it was not going to work
and did they use it as a means to influence the market. Keeping your
mouth shut is not always secretive it is more often the most honest
thing to do.

> /Casper

" No I don't hate Apple or love Microsoft, both produce great stuff -
and both step out of bounds."

A typical apple bashers disclamer disclaimer only thing is Microsoft
make's crap I do not even think they are trying to make great stuff
only winning from the completion counts and when crap is all it takes
they make crap .


Jack

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Nov 4, 2007, 7:29:58 AM11/4/07
to The Java Posse
Wow
Message has been deleted

Casper Bang

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Nov 4, 2007, 10:37:02 AM11/4/07
to The Java Posse
> And how is that for windows? How does that work on mips or powepc for
> you?
> to the OS and> software ecosystem (thou shall use Objective C)? (a open source compiler how open source is .net ?)

.NET is an open specification under ECMA, thus we have Mono and
dotGNU. And Microsoft's .NET implementation is on its way to being
opened up - just like Java was it before going truly open source.

> That is just what happens with all firmware updates you hack. Did you
> ever hack something modems satellite receivers set top boxes how and
> how about updating there firmware ...??

That just means set-top boxes etc. are also very closed, how does that
work in favor of your argument that Apple is not extremely closed and
in full control?

> The thing is that Microsoft gets convicted because they really step
> out of bounds and apple only seems to irritate you personally and you
> think that is just as bad?

Apple is a mini player on the PC market, less than 2% so they can get
away with a lot, flying under the radar - but that will not go
forever. Not in Europe anyway with strong anti-monopoly laws.

> When Microsoft is being open like for example with the winfs
> filesystem how open are they ? Do they know it was not going to work
> and did they use it as a means to influence the market. Keeping your
> mouth shut is not always secretive it is more often the most honest
> thing to do.

I am not sure what this failed/dropped endeavor has to do with secrecy
- they showcase a bunch of new stuff each year at the PDC way before
it is released, i.e. people have been playing with LINQ for years even
though it is still being developed.

> A typical apple bashers disclamer disclaimer only thing is Microsoft
> make's crap I do not even think they are trying to make great stuff
> only winning from the completion counts and when crap is all it takes
> they make crap .

Whatever, I have several iPod's and thought of getting a Mac (very
nice hardware inside) and yet I have no Microsoft products. But if you
insist on seeing the world as black and white / good or bad, and
nothing in between, I'll just move on and bid you a good day
attending Sunday mass at the church of Apple.

/Casper


Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 5, 2007, 12:23:28 AM11/5/07
to java...@googlegroups.com
The new JavaSE 6 update N is specifically designed to address these
issues. You will be able to detect and install Java as easily as
putting something like this in your webpage:

<script src="http://java.com/someurl/deploy.js"/>
<script>
deployment.generateApplet("myapp.jar","1.5");
</script>

The exact syntax is slightly different, i don't happen to have it
with me, but that's the basic idea. You load some magic javascript
from Sun and tell it to run your applet with a particular minimum
version of Java. The Javascript will detect the current version of
Java and update or install if needed before launching your app.

BTW. in terms of marketshare, 77% of all PCs have a Sun JVM
installed, the windows JRE has more than 50m downloads each month,
and 9 of the top 10 PC OEMs ship with Sun's Java. Java is really
getting out there.

- Josh

Christian Catchpole

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Nov 5, 2007, 12:28:46 AM11/5/07
to The Java Posse
Thanks Joshua. Happy to be proven wrong in this instance. :)

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 5, 2007, 12:31:53 AM11/5/07
to java...@googlegroups.com
Well, you are certainly right. Getting the JRE *is* a big issue.
That's why we're working so hard on it. Stay tuned!

- Josh

James Ward

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Nov 5, 2007, 7:31:03 AM11/5/07
to java...@googlegroups.com
77%! Cool! I think that is up from the last time you reported that stat here. When is Sun going to officially publish per version penetration stats? I think this is important information for the community to have.

BTW I like the idea of optionally using a Sun hosted JS Java detection file. Cool stuff.

-James

Casper Bang

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Nov 5, 2007, 7:47:42 AM11/5/07
to The Java Posse
Are there plans in the consumer JRE to overhaul Web Start to work more
like Maven. Where you could specify a library dependency (i.e.
mail.jar) and this would only be fetched if not already cached by the
individual client machine. Sun could host repositories for a vast
array of standard libraries, handling dependencies, versioning,
pack200 compression, code signing etc. - helping the developer and
providing the fastest possible downstream experience.

/Casper

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 5, 2007, 9:32:25 AM11/5/07
to java...@googlegroups.com
Webstart already does this with it's 'part' infrastructure. You can
define reusable parts, which are themselves composed of jars and
other resources and are defined by their own JNLP files. You can then
include those parts in your own app and query them at runtime.

There will certainly be bug fixes and improvements to webstart in the
consumer JRE. We are looking at adding JNLP support to applets,
meaning you would define your applet using a JNLP file instead of
just the applet tag that you get today. We are also looking at making
pack200 not require webserver support (yay!)
- Josh

Chica

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Nov 5, 2007, 11:49:45 PM11/5/07
to The Java Posse

Wow sweet!

Joshua Marinacci

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Nov 5, 2007, 11:55:37 PM11/5/07
to java...@googlegroups.com
I don't know what the break out is, but that's a good point. I'll
look into it.

I'm really excited about the Sun hosed JS file. It's definitely the
right solution and will make life better for everyone.

- j

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