The Java and .Net Podcast Showdown Epic Event!
CKoerner
It is time. Time to bring the two largest forces in podcasting
for .Net and Java together for a frank and open discussion of the
platforms that they support. In what is sure to be an epic battle of
the likes of Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman,
I propose a two hour discussion between the members of the .Net Rocks
podcast and the Java Posse podcast!
The ground rules:
--------------------------
1. Discussion points will be submitted by the community, written on
slips of paper and thrown in a fish bowl to be drawn randomly during
the event. Each side takes turn drawing a question and formulating the
initial response.
2. No longer then 30 minutes will be spent on any one discussion
topic, 15 minutes is a preferred stoping point to allow more topics to
be discussed.
3. Both sides will link liberally and generously to the other sides
podcast site for the event.
4. Both sides will record and release two one hour podcasts that
contains standard intro/outros and minimal additional commentary
(setting the stage of the event for the listeners). Both teams will
post thier podcasts at the same time, so when Part1 is ready to be
posted it will be released on both teams websites simultanously. Some
period of time agreed to by the team will follow between Part1 and
Part2 to allow for any bandwidth restrictions either side might have.
5. Either side can, if desired, release a commentary follow-up podcast
after the release of the two main podcasts covering anything related
to said podcasts. This is to cover anything they wanted to say but
didn't have time or thought of later about any of the topics discussed
during the event.
6. Finally, the format is rigid but what is said and who says it is an
open format. Common courtesy is in effect so allow time for others to
speak and for both sides to express their opinion and views. If a
difference of opinion exists then state so and move on, don't make it
a 'I must win' argument situation that drags on and on. Don't hog the
mike, etc. etc.
The Participants:
------------------------
On the Java side from the Java Posse Podcast we have:
- Dick Wall
- Tor Norbye
- Joe Nuxoll
- Carl Quinn
Podcast Site: http://javaposse.com/
On the .Net side from the .Net Rocks! Podcast we have:
- Carl Franklin
- Richard Campbell
Because we are two short for the .Net Rocks side we will allow
the .Net show to bring in two additional .Net oriented podcasters. I
highly suggest the following:
- Scott Hansel (from the Hansel Minutes podcast)
- Dare Objansajo (not a podcaster but a previous guest on .Net
Rocks, well known MS blogger, and author of a comprehensive
comparision document about .Net and Java found here:
http://www.25hoursaday.com/CsharpVsJava.html)
Podcast Site: http://www.dotnetrocks.com/
So there we have it. I am emailing this proposal to both podcasts
emails address as well as posting this on the Java Posse google group
(.Net Rocks has no community discussion area that I'm aware, if you
know of one then let me know and I'll post this there as well).
Java Posse Google Group : http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse
At this point I am more then happy to act as an arbitrator for the
event and both podcast groups can email me at ChessMess [at] Gmail to
signify participation. However you are also free to email the other
podcast directly as well (you will have to in order to setup a time to
do it and discuss podcasting setups etc).
For people on the Google group please post and let me know what you
think of the idea and also submit a couple discussion points you'd
like to hear.
As someone who had listened to every show of both podcasts, the
majority of each twice, I really look forward to this coming together.
All the best,
ChessMess
http://www.StratacticStudio.com (the cobblers children has no shoes)
disclosure: I once had an email I submitted read out on .Net rocks and
received a nice .Net rocks mug.
Joe Nuxoll (Java Posse)
These two platforms are very different, and any useful discussion
would require folks that have deep knowledge of both. I don't think
any of us on the Java Posse have deep understanding of the .NET
platform. Perhaps there is someone else out there with a good
understanding of both that we could have on for an interview... like
perhaps... Anders Heilsberg? I'll give him a ring. :-) Seriously.
- Joe
CKoerner
you give some history on the next JP podcast about your Paradox days!
I never got to do Pdox for windows (many Pdox for dos apps) but could
only admire from afar (we jumped to PowerBuilder at that point). I
would LOVE to hear old war stories and what happened with the product
and teams etc.
Ok about your comment, I don't think of this as an interview but as a
round table discussion where you both share your knowledge of your
platform and everyone benefits. At its core its a group of podcasters
who love their platform learning about and understanding the pros/cons
pet peeves etc with the other guys. We have TONS of interviews from
each group with respected members of their communities, this is
something special and unique if you ask me. It could turn out to be a
dude or something really fun. You miss 100% of the shots you don't
take so why not give this a go and just see how it turns out? Could
make for interesting discussions!
ChessMess
Casper Bang
Hejlsberg and Bloch in the same room talking language design, compiler
theory and VM's. I've heard much contradicting things from the two,
for instance that C# takes a performance hit for their way of doing
generics and that Java was first with generics etc. Since Hejlsberg
provides more substance (usually very pragmatic and clear) behind his
arguments I personally tend to trust him more.
However, none of them has something to prove so I doubt it would
happen.
/Casper
Alejandro Montenegro
--
Alejandro
Alejandro Montenegro del Pino.
Viña del Mar - Chile
phone: (+56) 9-97792837
Curt Cox
consider the people behind these projects:
IKVM.NET: an implementation of Java for Mono and the Microsoft .NET Framework
http://www.ikvm.net/
JaCIL: A CLI to JVM Compiler
http://www.cs.rit.edu/~atg2335/project/
Alexey Zinger
CKoerner <ches...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
Alexey Zinger
Alejandro Montenegro <aamo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
Duncan Wild
languages tackle similar problems but I don't think people would come
out of this thinking yeah C#/Java is the way to go because of X
argument, and C#/Java sucks.
C# and Java both have their own strong points and it only takes some
question from the Java community about how effective C# is on Linux/
Unix/Apple for the C# team to be stuck and it only takes a question
from the C# community to ask about desktop integration and how to use
specific O/S (ie Windows) functionality, for the Java group to be
stuck.
I'm not sure why the two languages are often compared as competitors
to each other, if your going to develop an app which you know is going
to be distributed solely on Windows and you know that your never going
to change then C# is the way to go, but if you don't want to tie
yourself into Windows and want the flexibility of "write once run
anywhere" software then go for Java.
> ChessMesshttp://www.StratacticStudio.com(the cobblers children has no shoes)
CKoerner
be talking to each other directly or maybe they are waiting to see the
community response for it. I don' t necessarily think we want them to
bring experts in, the fun is the learning and interaction of hearing
people like Dick and Carl and everyone else who we look forward to
hearing discuss the issues between the platforms. Hearing say Scott
Hansel and Tor Norbye discuss some question that relates I think would
be awesome!
Yes it will be a little awkward at first because the context is
something neither side has ever done before, hasn't worked with each
other, not sure who will talk first etc etc. But that will quickly
melt away as they talk about things near and dear and we see how
people with differing views mix it up. I think it could be a really
great interaction. I've listened to both podcasts for a long time and
can say both sides are very mature and it would be the kind of meetup
where everyone would leave to go have a beer rather then leave angry.
Carl, Richard, and Scott are really nice and personable people. So it
Dick, Carl, Joe, and Tor. I think everyone would have a great time.
I sure hope they give it a shot. Everyone needs to chime in support!
As Mr. Jenkins would say...... LETS DO THIS! ;)
Van Riper
> I sure hope they give it a shot. Everyone needs to chime in support!
Hmmm. I'm not sure about this either. If it were to happen though, I
have the perfect venue for it:
<shameless-plug>
http://www.siliconvalley-codecamp.com/
Silicon Valley CodeCamp
Foothill College
October 27-28
</shameless-plug>
Microsoft and Google are both already signed up as major sponsors and
there will definitely be a good turnout from the .Net developer
community because this was a big event for that community last year
with no reason to expect any different this year. I am personally
doing my best to promote this year's camp with the Java developer
community and getting the Java Posse there would be a big help in
making that happen. So, I'm definitely for this happening at Silicon
Valley CodeCamp. :-)
-Van
Mike Van Riper
van_...@dev.java.net
Silicon Valley Web Developer JUG
https://sv-web-jug.dev.java.net
P.S Arun Gupta is another good person that has an understanding of
interoperability of JEE and .Net via web services. He is working on
Project Tango. It is an open source implementation from Sun
Microsystems of the key enterprise Web services specifications,
commonly known as WS-*, that provides interoperability with .NET 3.0
framework:
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/arungupta/archive/2007/07/project_tango_a.html
CKoerner
and run such an event on their respective podcast. It would be nice
I'm sure, but wouldn't be as much fun as listening to the interactions
between say Dick and Carl, Joe and Richard, Carl and Scott, etc.
Steve Lewis
>
> On 8/13/07, CKoerner <ches...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I sure hope they give it a shot. Everyone needs to chime in support!
>
> Hmmm. I'm not sure about this either. If it were to happen though, I
> have the perfect venue for it:
I'm so not interested in a "Java vs Microsoft shootout" I can't begin
to find the words.
Your Interest May Vary
--
SteveL
gullcatcher
A fanboi "shootout" is really not a prospect I relish listening to.
"No, I'm the best. It's a fact: you're wrong".
I was thinking a James Gosling or Josh Bloch level interaction with
the .net counterparts, but; then I was reminded of the interactions
between Larry Wall and Guido von Rossum. It takes time to convey and
develop ideas like this, which a confrontational debate just won't be
able to convey.
I think a comparative anatomy* of the two languages would be really
interesting, but not with two sword lengths between two opposing
camps. Amit Singh (of OSX internals) did a very good interview with
Phil Windley, which would be a good model here.
* you learn the cow, by comparing with and contrasting to the horse.
You learn the horse by comparing with dog. You learn the dog, that's
easy.
Eric Winter
I think it would be just as informative for the Posse to have a review
Podcast on "Why Java" and the .Net Rocks guys to have a review on
"Why .Net" and then see what falls from there. The Posse would then
release the .Net podcast on their feed and visa versa to stimulate
cross pollination.
This would provide some cross pollination while not introducing any
"personal" issues and arguments that would occur with synchronous
communication ;). I think the .Net versus JVM comes down to not
wanting to be tied to a particular platform (Windows) and that could
be considered a religious issue :) and hence particularly
confrontational. It would be tremendously useful to get this cross
pollination effect all the same.
I could tune into the .Net Rocks podcast I guess but it would be nice
to have this "In Review" podcast to kick things off. Depending on my
impression from this "Review" I may well start listening to it.
Cheers,
E
Alexey
When I think of this Java Posse & .Net Rocks joint show, I'm not
thinking of it as a confrontation, but merely a kind of airing of
ideas and questions from the participants as well as both shows'
listeners and seeing how everyone approaches them. For example,
questions like "What kinds of build/testing/deployment tools do you
use for what types of projects and why?", or "How much do you depend
on container exception handling and how much do you implement your own
graceful recovery methods?", or "What do you see as the future of
multiple interoperable languages compiling to the same bytecode?", or
"The future of interpreters of languages like JavaScript, Python or
Perl running in a virtual machine?", or "What do you think of
Java-.Net interoperability projects like IKVM?", etc. should hopefully
stimulate a discussion, not a fight over dogmas. I don't think anyone
who's chimed in in favor of this discussion is interested in an "I
win" outcome, rather to come away with more food for thought and
understanding. As long as it's framed in a "let's follow this logic
through" kind of way rather than "Microsoft sucks!" or "I don't like
doing it this way, period.", we should be okay.
CKoerner
'Showdown' context. I've listened to every episode from both shows
(the majority of them 2x). I can say without a doubt that both are ran
by friendly people who enjoy what they do, so I really don't see them
'fighting' at all. I'd venture they would come out as new found
friends who love podcasting, love technology, love programming, and
happen to just live on two different sides of a fence. We all know the
Java Posse gang are great guys, and I can tell you the same holds for
the .Net Rocks guys.
Now I have heard references made by both sides about the others
platform (sometimes not in best light, sometimes in a good light). I
think it'd be a good learning experience for them and the listeners as
well. We are not talking about changing either podcasts here, if you
don't like the idea and don't want to hear it then don't listen to
that episode, its that easy.
I can't speak for others by I walk the line between Java and .Net
every day. I support apps written in asp, .net, vb, IIS etc and we are
wanting to create a soa architecture using Java, Unix, and Apache. I
bet there are many others who have to do this platform hopping as
well. Also I bet there are many who are on the fence about which
platform they want to use (as we were earlier this year) and would
find this an interesting listen.
So far I've heard positive interest from one of the .Net Rocks podcast
guys, and negative interest from one of the Java Posse guys. The
community reaction has been mixed with pro and con. Discussion
continues.
Lets do this!
ChessMess
RogerV
have feet planted firmly in both camps (but favor the Java platform).
I also listen regularly to the Java Posse and to .NET Rocks.
The problem I'd have with the proposed "epic battle" of podcasting
forces is that both groups of podcasters are breath-takingly ignorant
of the other platform. As someone that deals with and lives in both
worlds, it's very grating to hear either group of podcasters try to
talk about the "other" platform.
When these guys talk about "their" platform, you get reasonable and
intelligent discussion. I just don't see anything good or positive
coming out of the two camps trying to debate each other. You really
need to have informed and even experienced knowledge to debate this
stuff well, and neither group of podcasters has that with respect to
the opposite platform. When folks debate and argue from a basis of
ignorance things can get silly, riduculous, and even sad.
> ChessMesshttp://www.StratacticStudio.com(the cobblers children has no shoes)
RogerV
of venue for the two groups of podcasters to rub shoulders with their
respective opposite platform colleagues. They are indeed swell folk
all way round and would no doubt have some good times over some beers.
Guess need to think about this concept some more.
The prospect of doing some sort of blended event makes me think
nostalgically about the '60s TV variety shows I grew up with where
celebs would come on to one another's show.
CKoerner
lead them to ask questions of each other which draws out even more
information and interesting discussion. If both sides were experts on
both platforms then it really would be more of a debate then a shared
learning experience. I think the lack of knowledge of the opposing
sides is a good thing and help spur the conversation and produce more
interesting questions. Then there will be the opinion type questions
where we don't want an specific answer but just want to hear what
these two groups think and they will ask each other questions as well
as helping dispel incorrect assumptions or knowledge (Java is slow,
Microsoft hates open source, etc).
This isn't a debate and its not a gameshow meant to show who knows the
most about such and such, its a shared learning experience meant,
almost along the lines of a BOF session.
Do you not get together with a friend and discuss an some topic (say
Mac vs PC) just because you may not be a Mac expert? Nope. Same thing
applies here. We are not expecting perfection and deep insight from
people who can write the code in their prospective platform in pure
binary.
This is a friendly get together, sharing experiences and knowledge,
and learning how the other half thinks and lives in a BOF style
setting. Keywords being friendly, sharing, learning.
Christian Catchpole
merrits, because I'm not a Windows 'supporter'." So im curious about
the kinds of developers who do use it. Because many of us are an
idealistic bunch and the politics of MS vs The Rest of the World is
enough to put many of us off. So I assume those who do use it are:
a) seasoned windows developers to start with
b) dont care about the politics
c) have some concerns of the politics but see it another thing to
learn, even if their life doesn't revolve around it
I used to have concerns about investing so much effort into Java
development with the small threat that Sun has ultimate control over
Java and could change the game at any time. ie. start charging for
things that have always been free. But now they are going open
source, I think that small threat has become non-existant.
Casper Bang
d) Those curious about technology, who constantly seeks to improve
their toolbox - even if it involves looking at another hammer made by
people belonging to a different religion.
I consider myself belonging to that category. Which also means:
- I don't necessarily think Microsoft represents pure evil (even if
Steve Ballmer is the devil himself)
- I think it can be ok to pay for software (if it makes you more
productive and solves your problems)
- I think there is such a thing as "too many choices" (I would prefer
quality over quantity)
- I don't think Linux is quite ready for the desktop (but am
constantly reevaluating that stance)
- I would never ever consider running servers with Windows (not in a
million years)
- Software entropy and religion scares me more than vendor lock-in
/Casper
Jess Holle
(e) Those who somehow landed in a Microsoft-centric company or market niche and couldn't use anything else however much they might want -- so they don't bother examining any alternatives
--
Jess Holle
Christian Catchpole
Yeah I agree casper - didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I thougt I
was saying that with "see it as another thing to learn". I know lots
of people who get stuck into it because it's of interest and don't go
into the politics. I wasnt trying to suggest that we should be
political about it.. But from my perspective, it does come down to
"its a windows thing". If MS created something more like a JVM spec
like Sun did, maybe i'de be more interested.. (but only marginally :)
While I have become somewhat religious about Java I know this isn't
the best way to be. I'm trying to broaden my horizons, but i'm still
turned off my vendor lockin. Coming from an asm / C++ background, Im
used to open implemtations.
Steve Lewis
>
> Im in same boat as "I don't care about .NET, regardless of it's
> merrits, because I'm not a Windows 'supporter'." So im curious about
> the kinds of developers who do use it. Because many of us are an
e) The price was right. I got an offer this spring to work with a
good team with good practices in the right place at the right time who
just work in the wrong language. ;)
TMSAISTI
--
SteveL
CKoerner
can respect that some say I don't care about .Net. But has anyone
stopped to consider that since this event will also be broadcasted
on .Net Rocks and is a chance to introduce / educate a large audience
of Microsoft developers about Java?
Casper Bang
people and per inference that makes them less religious than the
posse. Then again, what the Posse delivers is at a more intimate
level, we can almost see Tor hacking away on Schliemann. So while it's
just as interesting, it's inherently more narrow-minded. I am of
course thinking of comments such as "seriously, I hope it goes away
and dies" which is really just another way of saying "leave me alone,
I am content in my own little world". It's this aspect of the Java
world that just scares the **** out of me.
So I just don't see it happening. What we do have though, are the
excellent interviews by Bruce Eckel which is a wonderfully curious and
open minded guy:
http://www.mindviewinc.com/mediacast/interviews/Index.php
/Casper
Ged Byrne
wrote:
> Perhaps there is someone else out there with a good
> understanding of both that we could have on for an interview... like
> perhaps... Anders Heilsberg? I'll give him a ring. :-) Seriously.
>
> - Joe
Joe,
Anders Heilsberg? Seriously, sersiously?
That would be a great interview.
Ged Byrne
RogerV
Java user group meeting and speak to a crowd of Java geeks about LINQ.
It was very well received - the Java folks were very cordial, but
certainly asked plenty of great questions. You could tell the
presenters were enjoying that side of the event.
Afterwards a bunch of us went to a local pub and had a fine time with
the MS dudes over a few pictures of beer - all very BOF like.
The thing I found is that the MS folks welcome opportunities to
venture into the lions den and talk about their geek achievements to
us Java nerds (not that surprising). So it wouldn't seem that
impossible to get an interview with Heilsberg.
Heilsberg would no doubt remember my write-up on LINQ that appeared on
JavaLobby - the compiler dudes said he read it, and that the article
was widely circulated on the MS campus. So he knows us Java folks are
capable of giving credit where credit is due.
Shoot I knew of Heilsberg back in his Borland days through some of the
Borland compiler guys that came over to work at Microsoft. He was a
great achiever in our industry long before C# and LINQ. Just to have
him talk on his ideas about language design concepts would be way
cool.
gullcatcher
This is as far away from fanboi as it gets. That would be awesome.
On Aug 13, 4:53 pm, "Joe Nuxoll (Java Posse)" <jnux...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Uhhhh... This doesn't sound like much fun to me.
>
> These two platforms are very different, and any useful discussion
> would require folks that have deep knowledge of both. I don't think
> any of us on the Java Posse have deep understanding of the .NET
> platform. Perhaps there is someone else out there with a good
Michael Neale
involved, or to listen to. I would be more interested in something
collaborative. Perhaps more on the mono side?
Or an interview with Anders from Microsoft and Joshua Bloch (or Guy
Steele) - someone involved in the early (ish) days of growing Java
(although I think if you had that much brain power in a single room at
once, it could bend the space time continuum to breaking point).
On Aug 14, 1:53 am, "Joe Nuxoll (Java Posse)" <jnux...@gmail.com>
CKoerner
set a starting point. The overall thing is having these two groups get
together and have a chat about their platforms and if they can do it
in another format then what was proposed that's fine. Sadly it appears
that while the .Net group has been opened minded, the Java group..
well.. not so much, at least based on the feedback given so far.
Jess Holle
That and a .Net vs. Java showdown is largely irrelevant in many respects.
If you want/need your software to run anywhere other than Windows, then .Net is not an option. [Mono is a smokescreen from Microsoft's perspective. While those involved in the Mono effort proper have the best of intentions, in the long run Microsoft will undoubtedly ensure that Mono is never be a real alternative to using .Net on Windows and that it does not substantially reduces the Windows platform lock-in of .Net.]
If you only care about Windows then you are probably in a Windows-only shop or don't care to look beyond .Net irrespective of other alternatives.
That's not to say both groups can't learn from each other. Both Sun and Microsoft have clearly stolen/borrowed/copied innumerable ideas from one another already. A "vs." discussion is just extraordinarily likely to degenerate into something little above watching WWF and of little/no use to most of us.
--
Jess Holle
CKoerner wrote:
Well it doesn't have to be in the format I described, I just wanted to set a starting point. The overall thing is having these two groups get together and have a chat about their platforms and if they can do it in another format then what was proposed that's fine. Sadly it appears that while the .Net group has been opened minded, the Java group.. well.. not so much, at least based on the feedback given so far. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse-...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--
CKoerner
started a few posts ago. It was more in a 'fun' vain rather then any
true feeling that they would actually fight. You know how you might
pit two friends against each other but you know its not actually
fighting. I've listened to both for so long and feel that I know the
personalities well enough that I don't think they would fight
(disagree sure, but in a gentlemanly manner).
I also don't expect it to be a super high-technical ultra minutia
detailed comparison. What I value is these two groups with years of
experience sharing their views and knowledge, even if some of them are
diametrically opposed.
Maybe it would be easier if both groups appeared on a third podcast
and that way they would feel more comfortable and they wouldn't have
to put it on their own podcast? Is there a third party podcast where
such a meetup would be a fit its normal venue?
Dick, Tor, Carl I know you guys have read this thread, do you agree
with Joe and its not something you want to try, or do you think it has
possibilities?
CKoerner
negative on the idea and Dick, Tor, and Carl have chose not to
comment. It will certainly make me hold comments made by the JP crew
about .Net in a different light.
Christian Catchpole
> It will certainly make me hold comments made by the JP crew
> about .Net in a different light.
I think the posse are always quite diplomatic about .net. I'm in the
same camp. I don't use it for several reasons, but I don't bash it.
I simply don't comment. I think it's unfair to expect any more from
the posse. They always mention .net news where it's relevant to Java
or the greater sphere of development.
Casper Bang
> > about .Net in a different light.
Well, sufficient to say you should not put too much into what you hear
about .NET from the Posse. As you might have heard, Joe is doing his
best to point out some Java weaknesses where we might learn from .NET.
In general there is little interest in how .NET improved over Java,
you need only follow the Beans Binding mailing list to see what
horrible workarounds (EL in String fields of annotations) are being
sought in the light of lacking properties and events - which is really
what we need to move forward on many fronts.
> I think the posse are always quite diplomatic about .net. I'm in the
> same camp. I don't use it for several reasons, but I don't bash it.
There's a bunch of speculation and ill comments, which usually
provokes me into posting. For instance, its simply not true that the
JVM is better suited for hosting multiple languages. And if you are
going to make such a statement, qualify it sufficiently rather than
speculating "....certainly there are more languages running on the
JVM...". But that's an entirely different story.
/Casper
Dick Wall
I hadn't posted on the groups about this matter because I thought we
had been pretty clear about the subject on the podcast itself, but I
can understand if people want something written to the groups as well,
so to summarize the main points:
The showdown idea is a bit of a turnoff for me personally. We are in
this for the fun (certainly not for the money :-) ) and the format
sounded like little-to-no fun. However we try to give people what they
want so I took the tack of waiting to see what other people thought of
it before commenting, it seems like the showdown idea was not too
popular, which gave me a warm and fuzzy for the community we have
here :-)
I don't have any animosity to .NET, I just don't (can't) use it in my
work because I don't use windows (or even have a windows machine
around to try it on any more). When .NET runs on Linux or Mac I will
take another look, for now I look at Mono from time to time and there
is some interesting stuff done in it on Linux, but certainly nothing
more interesting that is done in Python (Beagle is cool, but when
there are a whole new breed of multimedia tools like jokosher etc. in
python that look at slick and native, it doesn't seem as compelling).
Certainly in it's current form, mono doesn't offer me anything that
Java doesn't and brings the question of multiple UI technologies into
the picture (which is a problem I have had with Python for years as
well - should I use Tkinter, WxWindows, Qt, etc. etc.). I have yet to
see a truly cross platform application implemented in .NET, the
interesting Linux mono apps really run on Linux only. On the subject
of not having a place to use .NET, I believe the rest of the posse are
in the same boat if I can presume to talk for them. We all use either
mac, linux or solaris in our work and personal lives.
I don't recall ever saying that the JVM is *better* than the CLR at
running multiple languages, but I do always point out that the JVM has
always run more languages than the CLR at any point during their
relative developments, and this continues to be true. Efforts like
JRuby and Jython show that full support for other languages is
certainly possible on the JVM and JRuby demonstrates that the support
can be outstanding (and perform better than the original). Couple that
with the cross platform availability of the JVM and you have a
compelling argument for the openness of the JVM. I do believe that the
CLR has better support, particularly for dynamically typed languages,
but we have clearly proven that these language *can* be implemented on
the JVM, and furthermore I think the invokedynamic bytecode will help
close the gap some.
C# 3.0+ has features which are clearly more advanced than Java, for
the direction they are going. For my current interests though, both
Groovy and Scala are more interesting. For one thing I can run them on
my current development environment, and both are moving forward with
features, but in different directions to C#.
If there is one exception to all this it is LINQ - it sounds very
interesting and I would like to explore it more, but that would mean
stumping up a couple of hundred bucks for a windows license just to do
so. For the time being I am trying to find out more by talking to
people and reading whitepapers about it. I still think that the
inclusion of functional features (such as Scala is doing) is more
important to the kind of work I am involved with (enabling parallelism
is a good thing for large systems).
We have, however, heard the call for more .NET content and will try to
bring that where we can. We are not experts on .NET, nor particularly
interested in it at present (a linux or mac implementation with the
new features would certainly increase my interest, e.g. when will mono
get LINQ?) but it also seems like an odd request for the Java
Posse :-). We have never made any pretence that our show isn't about
Java, and that tends to be what we talk about. I think our best bet is
to find some interviewees who know both camps and can avoid the
religious angles.
Cheers
Dick