Apple has just deprecated Java on the Mac!!!

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robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 2:05:07 AM10/21/10
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Just in time for the Mac app store announcement? Timing is really
suspicious, and the App store does not support deprecated
technologies, like Java!

Mac App Store Review Guidelines

"Apps must contain all language support in a single app bundle (single
binary multiple language). Apps that spawn processes that continue to
run after a user has quit the app without user consent will be
rejected. Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed
technologies (e.g., Java, [PowerPC code requiring] Rosetta) will be
rejected.

Crazy!

Crazy!

Is Oracle going to provide the JDK/JRE for Mac OX now? Is OpenJDK7
going to implement AWT/Swing/Java2D on top of Cocoa?

Please, someone do something! Don't make me have to use Windows
machines!! :-()

Source:


http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeopardUpdate3LeopardUpdate8RN/NewandNoteworthy/NewandNoteworthy.html

Rob

Jan Goyvaerts™

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Oct 21, 2010, 2:48:46 AM10/21/10
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Doesn't it simply mean Apple is no longer maintaining the JVM ? Or will they actively block Java from running on Mac OS ?


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robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 2:56:23 AM10/21/10
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I'm sure they won't block a 3rd party JVM. But the current problem is,
no such (viable) 3rd party JVM exists. (There's a non-viable OpenJDK
port that runs on X-Windows on the Mac).

Is Oracle going to spend the money to develop one? If not, then who
will?

Also, since it's now a "deprecated" technology, even if there is a
viable 3rd party JVM made available, you still won't be able to
distribute any Java apps on the new Mac App store.

Rob

On Oct 20, 11:48 pm, Jan Goyvaerts™ <java.arti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Doesn't it simply mean Apple is no longer maintaining the JVM ? Or will they
> actively block Java from running on Mac OS ?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 08:05, robross <rob.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just in time for the Mac app store announcement? Timing is really
> > suspicious, and the App store does not support deprecated
> > technologies, like Java!
>
> > Mac App Store Review Guidelines
>
> > "Apps must contain all language support in a single app bundle (single
> > binary multiple language). Apps that spawn processes that continue to
> > run after a user has quit the app without user consent will be
> > rejected. Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed
> > technologies (e.g., Java, [PowerPC code requiring] Rosetta) will be
> > rejected.
>
> > Crazy!
>
> > Crazy!
>
> > Is Oracle going to provide the JDK/JRE for Mac OX now? Is OpenJDK7
> > going to implement AWT/Swing/Java2D on top of Cocoa?
>
> > Please, someone do something! Don't make me have to  use Windows
> > machines!! :-()
>
> > Source:
>
> >http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeo...
>
> > Rob
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "The Java Posse" group.
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> > .

Josh McDonald

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Oct 21, 2010, 2:57:21 AM10/21/10
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I'd say neither. It just means you can't sell Java apps through the Mac store. Makes sense to me, they want quality control, and the only Java app I've ever seen that feels remotely like it belongs on OS X is Cyberduck. Two minutes with soapUI on a Mac would make anybody think twice about giving Java apps the tacit approval that comes with sale in the official store.

-Josh
--
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
   -  jo...@joshmcdonald.info
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Reinier Zwitserloot

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:03:33 AM10/21/10
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Can we stop with the #%)(#%)@#(%#@#$* hyperbole?

The Mac App store is an extra. As in, all the ways you currently run
apps on a mac continue to work. Including java.

If anyone thought the mac app store was going to support java apps, I
would call that person delusional. So, nothing to see here, move
along, and for crying out loud, don't make a clearly factually wrong
titled post with 3 exclamation points in it, drama queen.
> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeo...
>
> Rob

robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:05:41 AM10/21/10
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And you've never seen crappy native Cocoa apps on the Mac?

This is the *exact* same argument that arose when Apple banned Flash-
ported application on the iPhone. Yes, the default behavior looks like
crap. So does the default behavior even when using Interface Builder.
It takes a skilled designer to develop a nice looking UI, regardless
of the underlying platform or technology.

And the "correct" response to the argument is, let the market decide.
Crappy apps won't sell. Great ones will. Implementation technology is
irrelevant.


But getting back to the main topic: if the only reason Apple has
decided to kill its JVM is so Java developers won't be able to submit
apps to the Mac App store, that seems pretty heavy handed to me.

Rob

On Oct 20, 11:57 pm, Josh McDonald <j...@joshmcdonald.info> wrote:
> I'd say neither. It just means you can't sell Java apps through the Mac
> store. Makes sense to me, they want quality control, and the only Java app
> I've ever seen that feels remotely like it belongs on OS X is Cyberduck. Two
> minutes with soapUI on a Mac would make anybody think twice about giving
> Java apps the tacit approval that comes with sale in the official store.
>
> -Josh
>
> On 21 October 2010 16:48, Jan Goyvaerts™ <java.arti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Doesn't it simply mean Apple is no longer maintaining the JVM ? Or will
> > they actively block Java from running on Mac OS ?
>
> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 08:05, robross <rob.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Just in time for the Mac app store announcement? Timing is really
> >> suspicious, and the App store does not support deprecated
> >> technologies, like Java!
>
> >> Mac App Store Review Guidelines
>
> >> "Apps must contain all language support in a single app bundle (single
> >> binary multiple language). Apps that spawn processes that continue to
> >> run after a user has quit the app without user consent will be
> >> rejected. Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed
> >> technologies (e.g., Java, [PowerPC code requiring] Rosetta) will be
> >> rejected.
>
> >> Crazy!
>
> >> Crazy!
>
> >> Is Oracle going to provide the JDK/JRE for Mac OX now? Is OpenJDK7
> >> going to implement AWT/Swing/Java2D on top of Cocoa?
>
> >> Please, someone do something! Don't make me have to  use Windows
> >> machines!! :-()
>
> >> Source:
>
> >>http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeo...
>
> >> Rob
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "The Java Posse" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> >> .
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
>
> >  --
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>
> --
> "Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."
>
> Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
>    -  j...@joshmcdonald.info

Michael Neale

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:06:48 AM10/21/10
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http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeopardUpdate3LeopardUpdate8RN/NewandNoteworthy/NewandNoteworthy.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40010380-CH4-DontLinkElementID_2

OK so what does this mean:

"As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of
Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is
deprecated.

This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at
the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X.
The Java runtime shipping in Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, and Mac OS X
10.5 Leopard, will continue to be supported and maintained through the
standard support cycles of those products."

robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:08:31 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
Exclamation points aside, the title is factually correct. Please read
the included link.

Rob

Jan Goyvaerts™

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:13:34 AM10/21/10
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I won't be surprised if Oracle steps in to produce a JVM for all platforms. That's more or less what Apple is forcing them to do ? I'm no Mac user, but I don't think Oracle can just ignore Java not being shipped any more for Mac. I wouldn't be surprised they'll soon send out reassuring communications that they will.

And in the meantime, everybody still has JDK6. It's not until JDK7 ships that there will be a gap. Son there's some room for patience. :-)

>
> > Rob

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Casper Bang

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:28:26 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
Ok personally I guess I don't care, don't use Mac, don't plan to
either. But it occurs to me that there's a substantial amount of
overlap between the iPhone and the Mac rules of engagements: http://goo.gl/GnOX

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, with Apple scoring 30%
of the revenue, eventually - let's say 3 years - the Mac store will be
the de-facto way to install and all other ways effectively deprecated.
Apple are probably smart enough not to go as far as to require users
to jail-break in order to get to another distribution channel, but a
de-facto monopoly still has massive implications for the software
ecosystem at large. It's times like this I wonder how come Apple gets
away with stuff that Microsoft never could.

robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:36:19 AM10/21/10
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On Oct 21, 12:13 am, Jan Goyvaerts™ <java.arti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I won't be surprised if Oracle steps in to produce a JVM for all platforms.
> That's more or less what Apple is forcing them to do ?

I do hope you are right. But I don't see what the financial advantage
is for Oracle to pay for a new JDK port. How do they make more money
by having a JDK on Apple machines? What is the mysterious Step #2 in
this story?

1. Oracle funds a Mac OS port
2. ??
3. Profit

>
> And in the meantime, everybody still has JDK6. It's not until JDK7 ships
> that there will be a gap. Son there's some room for patience. :-)

Well, according to the deprecation notice, the next Mac OS version ,
10.7 Lion, could ship without Java. And that's targeted to ship summer
of 2011, around the same time as JDK7. Even if Oracle commits to a
port, I doubt they have the resources (people-wise) to deliver a Mac
version in this timeframe.

Rob

Kirk

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Oct 21, 2010, 3:53:19 AM10/21/10
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I'm not sure that I understand the text. Is Apple no longer going to ship Java or, is it just a particular version of Java. For example, I have the 1.4.2, 1.5.0 and 1.6.0. If they were dropping 1.4.2 and 1.5.0 it's like.. who cares! If it's Java all together than I'm no longer interested in Apple hardware and I'll vote with my wallet.

Kirk

robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:02:41 AM10/21/10
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It means that as of 10.7 (scheduled for summer 2011), the Apple JDK
could simply disappear, as in, NO Java on your Mac at all, no 1.4,
1.5, 1.6. 1.7 - nothing.

And since there are *currently* no 3rd party JDKs that could replace
Apple's JDK, this means if you need to develop Java apps, you'd have
to move to a supported OS, like Windows Vista, or some unix/linux
variant. (The SoyLatte OpenJDK port is in an "experimental" state at
best.)

Rob

shainnif ismail

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:14:39 AM10/21/10
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My Mac is just a tool,  it may be a favourite one right now.   But when a tool is no longer useful you replace it.   If they actually do remove the jdks without a decent alternative then I will regretfully move on.

On 21 Oct 2010 09:02, "robross" <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:

It means that as of 10.7 (scheduled for summer 2011),  the Apple JDK
could simply disappear, as in, NO Java on your Mac at all, no 1.4,
1.5, 1.6. 1.7 - nothing.

And since there are *currently* no 3rd party JDKs that could replace
Apple's JDK, this means if you need to develop Java apps, you'd have
to move to a supported OS, like Windows Vista, or some unix/linux
variant. (The SoyLatte OpenJDK port is in an "experimental" state at
best.)

Rob


On Oct 21, 12:53 am, Kirk <kirk.pepperd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure that I understand the t...

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.


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Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:15:57 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, robross
On 10/21/10 10:02 , robross wrote:
> And since there are *currently* no 3rd party JDKs that could replace
> Apple's JDK, this means if you need to develop Java apps, you'd have
> to move to a supported OS, like Windows Vista, or some unix/linux
> variant. (The SoyLatte OpenJDK port is in an "experimental" state at
> best.)
So the "community" instead of chatting about forking the whole OpenJDK
for every possible operating system could start prove how good is at
that job by focusing on SoyLatte. Right?

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

Spencer Uresk

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:17:49 AM10/21/10
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It kind of sounds like Java in general will no longer be supported...

"As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of
Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is
deprecated."

It isn't terribly surprising, to be honest. With the "Back to Mac"
event today, it became crystal clear that Apple's vision for computers
(desktop/laptop) is to make it as much like iOS as they can get away
with. This gives them more control which allows them to create a
better experience for (some percentage of) users and (perhaps more
importantly) make more money, since they now will be able to get a cut
of money spent on applications. Java doesn't really fit anywhere in
that, and it doesn't seem to make much business sense for them to
continue spending resources to maintain it.

This makes me wonder a few things...

1) People are already joking about this, but I wonder what the chances
of 'jailbreaking' your new iMac or MacBook Pro becoming a common thing
are in the next 5 years or so? I'm starting to wonder...

2) I'm kind of with Casper on this - how does Apple continually get
free passes for stuff like this? I'm not really a huge Microsoft fan,
but if they were to try something like this, people would be going
crazy. I don't think the Mac AppStore is a bad idea, but the level of
control one company could have over your computing experience is a
little scary.

- Spencer

Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:25:10 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Spencer Uresk
On 10/21/10 10:17 , Spencer Uresk wrote:
>
> 2) I'm kind of with Casper on this - how does Apple continually get
> free passes for stuff like this? I'm not really a huge Microsoft fan,
> but if they were to try something like this, people would be going
> crazy. I don't think the Mac AppStore is a bad idea, but the level of
> control one company could have over your computing experience is a
> little scary.
... especially considering that now the AppStore for Mac OS X is just
another way to install applications... maybe in Apple's plan there's the
idea of making it the _only_ way (as you said, there's a sort of
convergence to the iOS style). Looks like it's really time to move on?
Too bad Linux on the desktop is being declared dead by some, including
Gosling: http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/desktop_linux_the_dream_is

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:44:30 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Spencer Uresk
If nothing else, this might push efforts to improve Linux drivers for the trackpad, magic mouse, etc.

Personally, I think I'll be abandoning Macbooks now, just can decide what to use as a replacement
The HP Envy's seem to have the screen quality and sold-metal body that I've grown to love, but I've read about problems installing Ubuntu on then.

What's a developer to do?


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Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 4:46:27 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Spencer Uresk
... in any case, I do hope Oracle says something official soon: "We're
going to / we're not going to" provide an official version of Java 7 for
Mac OS X". As somebody pointed out in an Apple mailing list, the release
notes describe some improvements in the way Mac OS X supports Java
implementations "by third parties". I don't know how much Oracle would
gain from that (even though I suppose they have at least a tiny fraction
of customers running Mac OS X), but it would be a really good move for
the relationship with the community.

Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 5:00:21 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Kevin Wright, Spencer Uresk
On 10/21/10 10:44 , Kevin Wright wrote:
> If nothing else, this might push efforts to improve Linux drivers for
> the trackpad, magic mouse, etc.
>
> Personally, I think I'll be abandoning Macbooks now, just can decide
> what to use as a replacement
> The HP Envy's seem to have the screen quality and sold-metal body that
> I've grown to love, but I've read about problems installing Ubuntu on
> then.
>
> What's a developer to do?
>
For sure there are valid alternatives for hardware, and possibly
cheaper. I'm not thinking of me as a developer; after all I feel much
more efficient with Linux that Mac OS X. I'm trying to understand what's
the future of deploying Java applications to Mac OS X. Curiously, if I
switch to a primary Linux environment (which doesnt' cost anything to
me, in addition to virtual boxes I already have also native partitions),
I'll lose ZFS (OpenSolaris went away, and currently the only option is
the open ZFS port to Mac OS X).

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 5:07:36 AM10/21/10
to Fabrizio Giudici, java...@googlegroups.com, Spencer Uresk
I love the Apple hardware and their GUI, but the (lack of) Java support is really starting to wind me up.

I'm wondering if Oracle couldn't side-step the the whole issue, not bother with releasing an OSX JVM, and push resources into improving the OSX feature set + performance for VirtualBox instead.

Perhaps I should be buying shares in Parallels Holdings Ltd. about now.


Casper Bang

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Oct 21, 2010, 5:18:33 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
> I'll lose ZFS (OpenSolaris went away, and currently the only option is
> the open ZFS port to Mac OS X).

But you'll gain BTRFS, effectively a successor to ZFS with a better
license. In Ubuntu 10.10 just type:

1) "sudo install btrfs-tools".

2) Have fun with "btrfs" and "btrfsctl".

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 5:34:18 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
I must admit I had a feeling that Apple would drop Java as Steve has
been posturing about how no-one uses Java for some time now. It is a
blow.
I am writing this on my first MacBook Pro. As a primarily Java
developer it may well be the sad reality that if there is no Java on
the Mac that this MacBook could be both my first and my last Mac.

I am annoyed that Apple is being allowed to get away with this. The
irony of Apples original Macintosh advert in 1984. Because Apple
doesn't think it needs to be like 1984 and yet here we are. Apples
developer world is 1984 hell with Big Brother Steve watching over your
shoulder "To ensure quality of software". That will be the reason
given but not the whole story.

What if Apple changes the rules to block Flash and Flex from running
on the Mac too?

What is wrong with the world! When did write once run anywhere turn
into fragment to the max? Perhaps things will go full circle again.
Once we are back to having to develop for each O/S individually then
maybe it will occur to people why technologies like Java were good in
the first place.

Whether Oracle produces Java for the Mac is critical to whether I
continue using a Mac. No Java = No Mac.
I note that Java survived on Windows even after Microsoft pulled it
but Windows was more dominant and Sun was less profit centric.

This won't be the end of Java but certainly a big annoyance to Java
developers. It could be like Flash where Apple says Flash doesn't fit
into their vision so the iOS users have to live without it but most
others happily go on using it on other platforms which don't take such
draconian steps.

I will just finish by saying...GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!
GAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

Casper Bang

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Oct 21, 2010, 5:58:26 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
> What if Apple changes the rules to block Flash and Flex from running
> on the Mac too?

They are close according to rumors: "Amusingly enough, you know what's
missing from the new MacBook Air models? Adobe Flash Player. While
preloaded on Apple's past hardware, out of the box here it just says
missing plugin, with no click to install option."

> I note that Java survived on Windows even after Microsoft pulled it
> but Windows was more dominant and Sun was less profit centric.

Small but not insignificant note, Microsoft funded at lot of this
effort indirectly though the $1.6bn they payed Sun over patent and
antitrust issues. I really wonder whether Oracle will see the
importance of client Java enough to overtake the work on the JRE,
there's no money in it for them catering to measly end-users.

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:05:59 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
If there is no client side Java then the money being spent of JavaFX
is kind of waisted unless Mac O/S is just ignored.

Can I just glare are Joe at this point *glare* *glare* *glare*
*you...you and all your kind...*

Chris Adamson

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:06:06 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
Also in the release notes, there's a lot of information about Apple
moving the location of its JVM:

"The location of the Java SE 6 runtime home has changed to /System/
Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines/1.6.0.jdk/Contents/Home. JDK bundles
provided via the Developer package, developer previews, and 3rd party
JVMs should be installed in /Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines or ~/
Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines. Developer previews of Java can now
be installed and uninstalled without affecting the system JVM(s)."

And also this:

"In testing, some Java IDEs have shown problems navigating into the
new JDK bundle structure, and persisting the location of the new JDK
bundles. Some IDEs may have to change how they prompt users to locate
a JVM on Mac OS X, and should ideally present a list of JVMs generated
from /usr/libexec/java_home --xml, which outputs each discovered JVM,
and orders them according to the user's order in Java Preferences."

I think the takeaway here is that Apple does intend to get out of the
JVM business, and their exit strategy allows for multiple VMs to fill
the void for users who need Java. They're laying down an explicit
plan for multiple JVMs to coexist, and let the user set their
respective priorities (via /Applications/Utilities/Java Preferences)

A few historical notes:

* This sort of reverts to the state the Mac was in around '97 or '98,
when there were many competing VMs for the Mac (developer-oriented VMs
from Metrowerks and Roaster, user-oriented VMs from Microsoft and
Netscape, etc.). At the time, Apple licensed Java from Sun and said
it would be better for users to have a single, system-standard JVM.
Obviously, times have changed.

* At least once, I've wondered aloud about whether Java on the Mac is
more important to Apple or Sun (now Oracle, of course). Would a lack
of Java hurt Mac sales, or hurt Java's cross-platform legitimacy?
Maybe now we're going to find out.

* Various actions that have offended the Java community -- such as the
nearly one-year delay in getting Java SE 6 onto the Mac, or Steve
Jobs' oft-quoted dismissal of Java as a "ball and chain" -- have
prompted calls for either the open-source community or Sun/Oracle to
take over Java on the Mac. Looks like it may be "put up or shut up"
time for that crowd.

* Anyone who insists on bringing up Steve Jobs' quote about wanting to
make the Mac "the best Java platform" needs to at least consider than
when Jobs made that statement, the current US President was Bill
Clinton (the statement was made at JavaOne 2000). Times change. For
a brief while, it may even have been true: Apple's Swing L&F was
widely praised, and James Gosling once described Mac OS X as "Linux
with QA and taste" (this was obviously before he decided he hated
Apple again).

--Chris

On Oct 21, 3:06 am, Michael Neale <michael.ne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeo...

Jan Goyvaerts™

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:19:56 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com
Lot's of "IF" in this thread. :-)

I'm not making a prediction, but my own "if" is: I would really be surprised if no Java will be shipped to Mac the time JDK7 is ready.

Apple was just the last big company missing in the JDK debate. Let's let the dust settle. I'm sure the bottom line will be that everybody will have Java. Mac included. 

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:20:40 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
I think it is far more important to Oracle than to Apple.
Write once...run anywhere but Mac.

I doubt the average Mac user would even notice if Java was gone to be
perfectly honest. I bet they would notice the lack of Flash. As soon
as they find YouTube doesn't work or any number of flash games /
animation sites.

It is both annoying and yet kind of understandable / predictable.

Java is trying to make a comeback on the Client but it just hasn't
happened yet. While it is busy trying to reinvent itself and is still
weak, Apple can ditch it without too many people except Java
developers even noticing.

Most things on web pages which used to be Applets somewhere along the
line were translated to Flash. Very few Applets remain these days.

Please Mr Obama Sir....feel free to intervene. I am sure there should
be an amendment to the constitution regarding Life, liberty and the
pursuit of running whatever software or technology you want on a Mac.

Ricky Clarkson

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:22:35 AM10/21/10
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If Apple would open-source their changes, or sell them to Oracle under
a closed source licence, that would be wunderbar.

Jan Goyvaerts™

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:28:05 AM10/21/10
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Maybe in the end it's all about the latter...

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:32:31 AM10/21/10
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This does hit developers especially hard.  We tend to use our machines far harder than anyone else, and to demand more from them.

As with anything in this world, the more you use a thing, the more the ergonomics matter, and Apple really do have some of the most ergonomic hardware (and interfaces) on the market.  Windows may have a fantastic GUI, but it also *must* have anti-virus which slows things down - and that's just not ergonomic!


I can understand the Apple perspective that typical end-users just don't run applications written in Java, but developers *do*.  We tend to use it quite a lot; even if it inevitably runs on a server, it still gets written on something with a UI.

Given that we'll now lose our only platform that's suited to both iOS and Java development, I suspect that a great many programmers will choose to abandon iPhone/iPad projects (if they haven't already).  We'll end up with another walled garden where you choose to program against Apple products, or against Java, but rarely both.

And that's where the irony comes in...  So c'mon Steve, you do know how to say "fragmented", don't you?

robross

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:36:27 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse


On Oct 21, 3:06 am, Chris Adamson <invalidn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few historical notes:
>
> * This sort of reverts to the state the Mac was in around '97 or '98,
> when there were many competing VMs for the Mac (developer-oriented VMs
> from Metrowerks and Roaster, user-oriented VMs from Microsoft and
> Netscape, etc.).  At the time, Apple licensed Java from Sun and said
> it would be better for users to have a single, system-standard JVM.
> Obviously, times have changed.

Don't forget that in 97/98, the dot-com reality distortion field was
in full swing. Your sole goal as a company consisted of spending as
much money as possible acquiring market share, and figuring out how to
make money came "later."

I don't see that same dynamic helping in the current situation. At
least Apple could make some money off their JVM investment by selling
hardware to Java developers. What is a 3rd party's financial incentive
for providing a Mac JVM, when end-users are conditioned to think that
downloading these types of "add ons" (Flash/Java, etc) are Free as in
beer.


>
> * At least once, I've wondered aloud about whether Java on the Mac is
> more important to Apple or Sun (now Oracle, of course).  Would a lack
> of Java hurt Mac sales, or hurt Java's cross-platform legitimacy?
> Maybe now we're going to find out.

Indeed. I suspect Apple will lose a little money on hardware sales
that would have previously gone to Java developers. But then again,
they're making so much money right now they probably won't even
notice.

Rob

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:41:13 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com
I'd take it further still.

Apple will lose money from Java developers.
But they'll also lose money from anyone who believes they may want/need to work on *any* JVM-based language in the future.
and from anyone using a Java-based IDE for languages that have absolutely nothing to do with the JVM.


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Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:47:35 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Ricky Clarkson
On 10/21/10 12:22 , Ricky Clarkson wrote:
> If Apple would open-source their changes, or sell them to Oracle under
> a closed source licence, that would be wunderbar.
+1

Mark Derricutt

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:49:47 AM10/21/10
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Or donate their JDK to Apache Harmony - yeh right :p

--
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Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:51:18 AM10/21/10
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But with Apple isn't all the emphasis lately on Costumers and
Consuming content. Developer friendliness isn't a focus. They would be
unwise to upset the creative types as art / design work has been the
niche stronghold market for apple for some time. I would suspect that
you cannot properly develop software for the Mac properly (natively)
on anything other than a Mac but that is probably true of practically
every other operating system too.

Now I am thinking of Walle and Buy & Large indoctrinating people from
being babies about "Consumerism"

Ricky Clarkson

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:51:35 AM10/21/10
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The agreement they have with Oracle would prohibit that, as far as I
know. They could distribute their changes, but not the whole thing.

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:53:49 AM10/21/10
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What is Wall Mart's take on all this (all hail Wall Mart)?

Chris Adamson

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:55:05 AM10/21/10
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On Oct 21, 3:36 am, robross <rob.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 12:13 am, Jan Goyvaerts™ <java.arti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I won't be surprised if Oracle steps in to produce a JVM for all platforms.
> > That's more or less what Apple is forcing them to do ?
>
> I do hope you are right. But I don't see what the financial advantage
> is for Oracle to pay for a new JDK port. How do they make more money
> by having a JDK on Apple machines? What is the mysterious Step #2 in
> this story?
>
> 1. Oracle funds a Mac OS port
> 2. ??
> 3. Profit

But from Apple's point of view, the exact same logic holds:

1. License Java, develop OS X port
2. ??
3. Profit

You're right to question whether it's worth Oracle's time and money to
do an OS X version… but clearly Apple's also asking itself the same
question.

I've long thought that Java on the Mac was financially justified
solely by the developer community -- that there are so many Java
developers willing to buy Macs that they alone justified Apple putting
money into Java. I came to this hypothesis by asking the question
"who would stop buying Macs if they didn't come with Java", and the
*only* answer was "Java developers".

But if so, then what changed yesterday?

* My hypothesis could be total crap. But if so, then what has
justified Apple supporting Java on the Mac for over a decade? There
hasn't been any new meaningful end-user Java software for years, and
there aren't THAT many people playing Runescape and Puzzle Pirates.

* The population of Java developers could be declining, though I do
not believe this is the case

* Apple may believe that the politicized element of the Java community
will (or already has) pick up their toys and march home to Linux or
Windows, in which case there are fewer Java developers as potential
Mac customers, and less financial incentive to pursue them.

* Apple may believe that Java developers will continue to buy Macs
whether or not Apple develops its own JVM. 'Cause, you know, they're
so pretty and all. Or because Apple believes someone (Oracle, the
open source community, the Java Fairy) will provide an OS X JVM,
meaning it doesn't have to be Apple's problem anymore.

* Apple may believe that Java 7's timeline is so far out, likely to be
delayed further, and the Java community is so conservative about
adopting new versions, that Java SE 6 will be perfectly adequate in
its current form indefinitely. So again, developers might be willing
to stick with the Mac regardless of whether Apple is actively
developing its own JVM.

To me, the crucial tension has always been the fact that Java is
overwhelmingly a server-side language, and that the desktop stuff
really is little used, other than for IDEs. Yet Apple is all about
the desktop (or what I call "user facing" and "user local" stuff), so
their Java is only relevant to Java developers, and only then at
development-time.

--Chris

Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 6:49:39 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Kevin Wright
On 10/21/10 12:41 , Kevin Wright wrote:
> I'd take it further still.
>
> Apple will lose money from Java developers.
> But they'll also lose money from anyone who believes they may
> want/need to work on *any* JVM-based language in the future.
> and from anyone using a Java-based IDE for languages that have
> absolutely nothing to do with the JVM.
>
But this is just a tiny fraction in the Apple's income, I suspect.

Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:05:09 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Chris Adamson
On 10/21/10 12:06 , Chris Adamson wrote:
> Obviously, times have changed.
I'm curious to see whether people that blamed Oracle for changing its
mind on opening the TCK will use the same meter to judge how Apple in
time changed its mind on supporting Java. For me, I'm pragmatic: both
corporates pursue profits and clearly they think they are better with
their new strategies. In the meantime, I've already seen blog comments
saying that Apple's decision of deprecating Java is to be blamed on
Oracle. LOL.

Chris Adamson

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:07:52 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
On Oct 21, 6:51 am, Carl Jokl <carl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But with Apple isn't all the emphasis lately on Costumers and
> Consuming content. Developer friendliness isn't a focus.

Very true. Someone recently said that Apple "puts itself first, users
second, and developers third." That sounds about right.

As a mental exercise, you might think about how Sun arranged these
three parties, and whether that accounts in part for Sun ceasing to
exist.

>They would be
> unwise to upset the creative types as art / design work has been the
> niche stronghold market for apple for some time.

That was probably true 10 years ago, but not now. A lot of creative
types are openly complaining about the Pro creative apps seemingly
being left in the lurch (as a Final Cut user, I'm tempted by Premiere,
since Adobe is actively developing their product and Apple… not so
much).

Apple today has more in common with consumer electronics companies
like Sony and Nintendo than with computer companies like Oracle, HP,
or Microsoft. Jobs long idolized Sony founder Akio Morita, and a
recent interview with former Apple CEO John Sculley says that Jobs has
in many ways modeled Apple on Sony. (see
http://www.cultofmac.com/john-sculley-on-steve-jobs-the-full-interview-transcript/63295
)

--Chris

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:11:30 AM10/21/10
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The way I see it going:

Apple want consumers
consumers want applications
applications are written by developers
but the developers have run off, fed up with the way Apple is treating them



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Casper Bang

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:18:17 AM10/21/10
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Well if you equate JavaFX Script with the applet 2.0 push Sun (rather
naively) envisioned, then wouldn't you say that was money wasted? And
if lack of a component model (as many have suggested) is to blame for
the failure of desktop Java (there's not much that can't be done with
Swing), then should we really hold much hope for JavaFX as an API, to
break down new barriers for desktop Java? I don't see that happening
I'm afraid. Disclaimer: I was early adopter of JSR-295 and JSR-296
which since died a quiet and lonely death at the expense of JavaFX.

Casper Bang

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:27:32 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
> and a
> recent interview with former Apple CEO John Sculley says that Jobs has
> in many ways modeled Apple on Sony.

Great... but who's the next Samsung then??

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:28:46 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
I really "wan't" JavaFX to take off and Java to make a comeback on the
client. I think it still has things to offer.

However just wanting it to happen doesn't mean it will. Maybe I should
just learn Flash given I now have the tools. What I have seen of
Action script makes me think it is a pretty dumbed down developer
experience compared to Java (or C# for that matter) thought Flash has
the upper hand with the artistic side and the fact it is all linked
together with a complete creative suite. Apple seems to be trying to
kill flash too though and no-one can argue that Flash isn't
successful.

One thing I know I don't want is I don't want to develop rich apps
using HTML5 and JavaScript. I find Web Development a big bag of pain
and don't believe HTML is going to live up to the hype. Covertly to
wanting JavaFX to succeed but being realistic that it may not I don't
want HTML5 to succeed in becoming the only way of doing things but
feel like this is more likely to be forced on us.

Fabrizio Giudici

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:28:50 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com, Kevin Wright
On 10/21/10 13:11 , Kevin Wright wrote:
> The way I see it going:
>
> Apple want consumers
> consumers want applications
> applications are written by developers
> but the developers have run off, fed up with the way Apple is treating
> them
The problem is that this is not true. Apple has got and will keep enough
developers for making money and they're ok with that. I strongly agree
with Chris saying that Apple is now consumer oriented (I'd only specify
that it's today mostly a fashion company) and thus are more important
developers that make iPhone-like stuff - cute but mostly useless - than
those - like us - making more complex, mostly business-oriented stuff.
The change of core business to me was already evident when they dropped
"computer" from the official name. That's life.

Vince O'Sullivan

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:32:01 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
> Given that we'll now lose our only platform that's suited to both iOS and
> Java development, I suspect that a great many programmers will choose to
> abandon iPhone/iPad projects (if they haven't already).

I doubt it. Programmers go where the customers and the money go. You
only have to look at the Tiobe Index to see the rise in Objective-C
(and the long term steady decline in Java).

Microsoft have already shown that they can get by without Java (in
fact they've found that they're actually better off without it).
They've also already released dev tool for use with Visual Studio.

Linux has never been relaxed about sleeping with Java; and just when
it has just about accepted the situation, up pops Oracle and asks for
the ball back. (Er, possible mixed metaphors there.)

It seems that the future of Java (and other JVM based languages) has
never been more interesting.

V.

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:37:36 AM10/21/10
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All of which assumes that profit alone is the sole motivator for developers to do their best work and to create great applications.

Which we all know just ain't true, as has been demonstrated time and time again in numerous case studies.



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Kirk

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:39:39 AM10/21/10
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well, I was just about to buy new hardware so it looks as though apple is off of the table with this news.

Kirk

On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:

If nothing else, this might push efforts to improve Linux drivers for the trackpad, magic mouse, etc.

Personally, I think I'll be abandoning Macbooks now, just can decide what to use as a replacement
The HP Envy's seem to have the screen quality and sold-metal body that I've grown to love, but I've read about problems installing Ubuntu on then.

What's a developer to do?


On 21 October 2010 09:25, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio...@tidalwave.it> wrote:
On 10/21/10 10:17 , Spencer Uresk wrote:

2) I'm kind of with Casper on this - how does Apple continually get
free passes for stuff like this? I'm not really a huge Microsoft fan,
but if they were to try something like this, people would be going
crazy. I don't think the Mac AppStore is a bad idea, but the level of
control one company could have over your computing experience is a
little scary.
... especially considering that now the AppStore for Mac OS X is just another way to install applications... maybe in Apple's plan there's the idea of making it the _only_ way (as you said, there's a sort of convergence to the iOS style). Looks like it's really time to move on? Too bad Linux on the desktop is being declared dead by some, including Gosling: http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/desktop_linux_the_dream_is


--
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Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

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Chris Adamson

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:42:08 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
On Oct 21, 7:11 am, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The way I see it going:
>
> Apple want consumers
> consumers want applications
> applications are written by developers
> but the developers have run off, fed up with the way Apple is treating them

Really? Jobs said yesterday that the Mac Dev Program has 600,000
registered developers, growing at 30,000 a month. That doesn't sound
like running off to me (although it does pale in comparison to the 6.5
million Java developer figure that Oracle claims: http://www.java.com/en/about/
).

Sun's treatment of Desktop Java developers might be a better example:
Sun basically abandoned the desktop after shipping Swing 1.0, then
came back in 2007 and said "screw all you Swing developers, we're
starting over with UI and you have to learn a new language, JavaFX
Script", and then this year said "hey, everyone who adopted JavaFX
Script… screw you too." Most of the prominent Desktop Java developers
I know actually have abandoned the platform (Hans, Josh, me), or gone
over to Android (Chet, Romain, Tor), leaving just a few hangers-on in
Swingland (Kirill and Kleopatra).

Fabrizio mentioned that some people are foolishly blaming Oracle for
Apple's move. He's right, that's total crap. What I would blame is
what Sun did with Desktop Java over the last decade: that's a big part
of why there are virtually no desktop Java apps of any consequence,
and why it would be in Apple's self-interest to get out of the Java
business. All the Desktop Java developers in the world could
explicitly stop supporting Mac - hell, they could check the os.type
for "mac" and do a System.exit(-1) - and almost nobody would notice.

[OK, I've posted too much on this already and I should shut up and let
other people have a turn! Just a topic near and dear to me,
obviously.]

--Chris

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:42:48 AM10/21/10
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I think development is a balancing act.

I personally can get attached to pet projects and care more about them
being successful than making lots of money. If it was all about money
then why would I work on things out of hours when I am not getting
paid for them. I know I am not the only programmer who has been told
'no' by a company and consequently worked on something in my own time
to prove it would work when there is no money involved.

The other side is the reality that I have to pay the rent somehow and
need to make a living to survive and so have to compromise.

I am sure there are developers for whom everything is just money money
money....but I think they are probably jerks.

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:51:23 AM10/21/10
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Which comes very close to asserting that Apple only wants jerks to develop on their platform.

I dearly wish I could see a kinder interpretation of the facts, but it currently evades me...



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Casper Bang

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:53:13 AM10/21/10
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> Which we all know just ain't true, as has been demonstrated time and time
> again in numerous case studies.

True, hobbyists who care can go further than professionals that don't.
However, the divergence of virtual machine and programming language in
the Java world does not exactly help here, the JVM is bound to get
competition from other VM's like LLVM, Parrot and the CLR! Case of
point, it seems like Apple has no issue with applications being
written in C# via Mono (MonoMac and MonoTouch), as long as this is
transparent to end end-user experience (bundled CLR using custom UI
toolkit with native bindings).

Kirk

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Oct 21, 2010, 7:57:48 AM10/21/10
to java...@googlegroups.com
On another thought, does anyone know the best route for us to use to express our displeasure?

Kirk

shainnif ismail

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Oct 21, 2010, 8:03:06 AM10/21/10
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Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 8:05:15 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
I am sorry if it upsets anyone but all the developers who I have ever
known who were primarily focused on making money and their career
above all else were also total arrogant jerks.

Your own millage may vary.

Carl Jokl

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Oct 21, 2010, 8:07:37 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
But I thought ranting on the Java Posse group WAS the best way of
expressing displeasure?

Chris Adamson

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Oct 21, 2010, 8:11:09 AM10/21/10
to The Java Posse
On Oct 21, 7:51 am, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Which comes very close to asserting that Apple only wants jerks to develop
> on their platform.
>
> I dearly wish I could see a kinder interpretation of the facts, but it
> currently evades me...

[OK, I know I said I was going to stop, but this really bugged me.]

Caring about money doesn't make you a jerk. Tim O'Reilly has a nice
defense of it in his "Rules of Thumb" for O'Reilly employees (
http://tim.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/articles/thumb_pref.html?page=2
):

-- quote --

If I were to boil my company vision down to one sentence, it would be
this: "To make money doing interesting and worthwhile things."

Why "to make money"? Well, money is the fuel for the whole system. It
makes the rest possible. What's more, there is a wonderful rigor in
free-market economics. When you have to prove the value of your ideas
by persuading other people to pay for them, it cleans out an awful lot
of wooly thinking. I think often of Alexander Pope's comment about
writing poetry in rhymed couplets. He said that funnelling his
creativity through such a narrow aperture made it shoot out like water
from a fountain.

Why "interesting and worthwhile"? Oddly enough, while dull people find
very little to be of interest, intelligent people find almost anything
interesting. (Curiosity is the wellspring of intelligence.) And so
there are many things that can be interesting that do not add a great
deal of value to the world. Adding the proviso that what we do be
worthwhile in some larger sense limits our selections a bit, but like
the need to make money, actually improves the chances of happiness at
what we do.

-- quote --

For my own part, let me add this: I have a mortgage to pay, and a
special-needs child who I support through private health insurance
(since I am self-employed). I cannot pay these bills as a Swing
developer. I can pay them as an iOS developer. Furthermore, I no
longer find Swing "interesting and worthwhile"… being abandoned for a
decade will do that to a technology. iOS is interesting and
worthwhile to me as a developer, and I'm particularly inspired by its
media technologies, which are years ahead of everybody else.

--Chris

> On 21 October 2010 12:42, Carl Jokl <carl.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think development is a balancing act.
>
> > I personally can get attached to pet projects and care more about them
> > being successful than making lots of money. If it was all about money
> > then why would I work on things out of hours when I am not getting
> > paid for them. I know I am not the only programmer who has been told
> > 'no' by a company and consequently worked on something in my own time
> > to prove it would work when there is no money involved.
>
> > The other side is the reality that I have to pay the rent somehow and
> > need to make a living to survive and so have to compromise.
>
> > I am sure there are developers for whom everything is just money money
> > money....but I think they are probably jerks.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "The Java Posse" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > javaposse+...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups .com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>
> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com

Kevin Wright

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Oct 21, 2010, 8:14:52 AM10/21/10
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Yet it was Apple themselves who deprecated the Java-Cocoa bindings.  That was a sad day...
Whatever way we try to interpret this, it's far from being clear cut.

I'd love to know what discussions have taken place between Oracle and Apple, behind closed doors (and you can be quite certain that they *have* happened)