[sangkancil] The death of Toh Puan Bunny Suffian
M.G.G. Pillai
Toh Puan Bunny Suffian, 80, died of cancer at the General Hospital
in Kuala Lumpur last Thursday, and was to have been cremated
yesterday. But her husband, Tun Mohamed Suffian, also 80, retired
Lord President of Malaysia, could not recover her body as his brother
had staked a claim and wanted her buried according to Islamic rights.
Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
years was this challenged.
But it was on her death. The Attorney-General intervened.
He agreed with three witnesses who claimed she recited the Muslim
declaration of faith (shahadat) at her death-bed, and that made
her a Muslim; and her brother-in-law took her body to Kuala
Kangsar for burial. Tun Suffian was never asked for his views, but
this is not required under Muslim law in Malaysia. He did not
attend the funeral.
The Muslim establishment and the Malay cultural voice see the
urbane, cerebral, worldly-wise Cambridge graduate and King's
Scholar that Tun Suffian is as the embodiment of the Malay elite
the prime minister, Dato' Seri Mahathir Mohamed wants to create in
his march to an industrialised society by 2020 -- now stunningly
delayed by the recent currency and ecological turmoil. The Islamic
activist pressure is in response to this moderning mission, which
has left the Malay increasingly marginalised, especially in the
rural areas.
Tun Suffian's predicament is not unique: he is only the most
prominent to face it. Islamic and religious bodies seize corposes
of those they believe had converted, and bury them according to
Muslim rites; and unearth bodies in Christian cemetries to bury
them as Muslims, sometimes months later. One body was kept in a
hospital in a standoff between his family and the Islamic
officials; in the end, the family got the body.
Islam in Malaysia has as its framework in the society
envisaged by the theologist Imam Ghazali and the legal theorist
An-Nawawi during the Abbasid Caliphate (AD 11th to 13th century),
with its conservative legalistic interpretation, which included
the destruction of pre-Islam cultures and an insistence that people
it dem to be Muslim should be buried according to Muslim rites,
even if that causes considerable pain to the bereaved, as in the
present case.
This is strengthened by Islam's inherent seige mentality of
developing under constant threat of Portuguese, Dutch, British
colonial powers, and in Northern Peninsular Malaysia, Thailand;
and now from the modernising mission of official policy. But it
highlighted once again the often obscurantist activism of the
Islamic affairs departments of the various states.
In 1979, a cabinet minister was hurriedly cremated after an
official funeral because of rumours that he had converted to
Islam, and the resulting communal furor this would have caused if
that had been proven. In some states, children can be converted
to Islam without their parents' knowledge. Not so long ago, the
Selangor religious authorities charged three Malay Muslim girls for
taking party in a beauty contest, while in Kuching, the state
religious body decided bodybuilding is not for Muslim men since it
would reveal more of the male body than Islam allows. If this view
is allowed to continue in the months to come, the impact on next
year's Commonwealth Games can be devasting. Tun Suffian came to
be caught in this test of strength.
M.G.G. Pillai
pil...@mgg.pc.my
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Kamel Yusoh
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
> Toh Puan Bunny Suffian, 80, died of cancer at the General Hospital
> in Kuala Lumpur last Thursday, and was to have been cremated
> yesterday. But her husband, Tun Mohamed Suffian, also 80, retired
> Lord President of Malaysia, could not recover her body as his brother
> had staked a claim and wanted her buried according to Islamic rights.
> Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
> their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
> years was this challenged.
>
At issue is whether Toh Puan Bunny Suffian died a muslim. She is married
to Tun Mohamed Sufian and being a malay, he is a muslim according to the
constitution, and Toh Puan Bunny Sufian is deem a muslim else their
marriage is illegal under muslim law. I assume, at no time during the
past 51 years the legality of their marriage is being challenged.
Moreover, three witness saw her cites the kalimah shahadah (yes that is
enough to make her a muslim)
While Islam is the country's official religion, freedom for other
religion is guranteed and muslim law only applies to muslims. In cases
like this, due process is given, and results have gone both ways. The
issue is highly sensitive and emotional and capable of bringing out the
worst in person, like your malicious post.
Islam inherent seige mentality ??? You come across, as the one who have
the seige mentality.
Rgds.
michael
In article <343FC5FD...@pc.jaring.my> ka...@pc.jaring.my writes:
>
>M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
>
>> Toh Puan Bunny Suffian, 80, died of cancer at the General Hospital
>> in Kuala Lumpur last Thursday, and was to have been cremated
>> yesterday. But her husband, Tun Mohamed Suffian, also 80, retired
>> Lord President of Malaysia, could not recover her body as his brother
>> had staked a claim and wanted her buried according to Islamic rights.
>> Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
>> their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
>> years was this challenged.
>
>At issue is whether Toh Puan Bunny Suffian died a muslim. She is married
>to Tun Mohamed Sufian and being a malay, he is a muslim according to the
>constitution,
Can you quote the relevant articles in our constitution that says
she must be a Malay if she is married to a Malay?
>and Toh Puan Bunny Sufian is deem a muslim else their
>marriage is illegal under muslim law. I assume, at no time during the
I am told the Muslim law says a Christian woman is allowed to
remain a Christian if she marries a Muslim. This is true even
in many of the Muslim middle east countries.
What you have mentioned is the Malaysian variant.
>past 51 years the legality of their marriage is being challenged.
Challenged?
I remember she attending official functions as the official Toh Puan
of the Tun.
I think the former Lord President knows the law much better than
you and I. :)
>Moreover, three witness saw her cites the kalimah shahadah (yes that is
>enough to make her a muslim)
According to MGG, Tun's reaction seemed to dispute that.
>While Islam is the country's official religion, freedom for other
>religion is guranteed and muslim law only applies to muslims. In cases
>like this, due process is given, and results have gone both ways. The
>issue is highly sensitive and emotional and capable of bringing out the
>worst in person, like your malicious post.
>
>Islam inherent seige mentality ??? You come across, as the one who have
>the seige mentality.
Siege mentality is usually never recognised by those who are
having it. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
*Seige mentality is bad? I doubt it. :)
The Japanese are having it for years and they are afraid
the younger generation might lose it. *
sabre 2/3 newsmaster
Kamel Yusoh <ka...@pc.jaring.my> writes:
> M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
>> Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
>> their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
>> years was this challenged.
> At issue is whether Toh Puan Bunny Suffian died a muslim. She is married
> to Tun Mohamed Sufian and being a malay, he is a muslim according to the
> marriage is illegal under muslim law.
Is a muslim man marrying a christian woman *illegal* under Malaysian
Syariah Law, Kamel? AFAIK, doing so is legal under Islamic law.
wassalam,
.sabre
Kamel Yusoh
michael wrote:
> Can you quote the relevant articles in our constitution that says
> she must be a Malay if she is married to a Malay?
I cannot because there is none, what I said is Tun Suffian is a Malay
and according to the constitution he is a muslim. As for his wife we
have been made to understand she's British, well and good, nobody is
disputing that.At issue is whether she died a muslim.
> I am told the Muslim law says a Christian woman is allowed to
> remain a Christian if she marries a Muslim. This is true even
> in many of the Muslim middle east countries.
> What you have mentioned is the Malaysian variant.
I am an ordinary practising muslim not a scholar, so I cannot give u
much details, but a muslim is allowed to marry "ahli kitab" or "people
of the books". Maybe a more knowledgable person can elaborate on this to
enlightened u and me. Be what I've been made to understand is, most
christian today does not fulfill "people of the book" criteria.
> Challenged?
> I remember she attending official functions as the official Toh Puan
> of the Tun.
> I think the former Lord President knows the law much better than
> you and I. :)
I don't quite understand your point, here.
> According to MGG, Tun's reaction seemed to dispute that.
Yeah, according to MGG, is he insinuating that Tun Sufian agree that
his wife is not a muslim.
> Siege mentality is usually never recognised by those who are
> having it. :)
Very well said.
> regards,
> michael ... afn2...@afn.org
> *Seige mentality is bad? I doubt it. :)
> The Japanese are having it for years and they are afraid
> the younger generation might lose it. *
Rgds.
Kamel
Seige mentality.... Intel trives on it - Only the paranoid survives
Kamel Yusoh
sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
> Is a muslim man marrying a christian woman *illegal* under Malaysian
> Syariah Law, Kamel? AFAIK, doing so is legal under Islamic law.
>
> wassalam,
> .sabre
That's not what AFAIK. Enlighten me Sabre.
Rgds.
M.G.G. Pillai
In article <971012.090747...@sabri.pc.my>, sabre 2/3 newsmaster (ne...@sabri.pc.my) writes:
>Kamel Yusoh <ka...@pc.jaring.my> writes:
>> M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
>>> Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
>>> their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
>>> years was this challenged.
>> At issue is whether Toh Puan Bunny Suffian died a muslim. She is married
>> to Tun Mohamed Sufian and being a malay, he is a muslim according to the
>> constitution, and Toh Puan Bunny Sufian is deem a muslim else their
>> marriage is illegal under muslim law.
>
>Syariah Law, Kamel? AFAIK, doing so is legal under Islamic law.
>
>wassalam,
>.sabre
>
At the point of Tun Suffian's marriage in London in 1946 -- not
1941 as the New Straits Times said this morning -- there was no bar
to a Muslim marrying a Christian lady. I do not believe there was
a law passed since insisting that those Muslims who married
non-Muslims must ensure that their non-Muslim spouses should
become Muslims. This fact of Toh Puan Bunny remaining a Christian
is not something either hid. The question is: if this was such a
major impediment, why did not the Muslim authorities raise this
when she was alive? And why the secrecy of the issue which
emerged after she died.
As for the reciting of the "declaration of faith", at which point
was this made? She was veering between consciousness and
unconsciousness for about a month before she died, but what I had
heard suggest that the declaration of faith was made just before
she died.
The next issue is: since it was the Attorney-General who decided
she was a Muslim -- and he does not have the locus standi, as the
lawyers say, to decide on that -- why did he not call in Tun
Suffian as well for his view. The AG cannot insist he does not
have to; his adjudication of the issue necessarily would have to
be under civil law. Why was not Tun Suffian asked for his view?
Or was this yet another attempt to put that man in his place for
his principled opposition to much of much of the modernising
attempts for which we now pay the price?
M.G.G. Pillai
pil...@mgg.pc.my
Kamel Yusoh
Kamel Yusoh wrote:
> michael wrote:
>
> > I am told the Muslim law says a Christian woman is allowed to
> > remain a Christian if she marries a Muslim. This is true even
> > in many of the Muslim middle east countries.
> > What you have mentioned is the Malaysian variant.
>
> I am an ordinary practising muslim not a scholar, so I cannot give u
> much details, but a muslim is allowed to marry "ahli kitab" or "people
>
> of the books". Maybe a more knowledgable person can elaborate on this
> to
> enlightened u and me. Be what I've been made to understand is, most
> christian today does not fulfill "people of the book" criteria.
If I may add, overwhelming concensus among Muslim scholar and practise
among muslim worldwide worldwide most christian today does not fulfill
"people of the book" criteria. So, no such thing as Malaysia variant as
u want to conviniently believe.
Rgds.
sabre 2/3 newsmaster
Kamel Yusoh <ka...@pc.jaring.my> writes:
> sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
>> Is a muslim man marrying a christian woman *illegal* under Malaysian
>> Syariah Law, Kamel? AFAIK, doing so is legal under Islamic law.
Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian woman
is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat being
married to a christian lady ...
As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
asking you, just in case you're in the know.
wassalam,
.sabre
Let It Be
The moral of the story is that, if in doubt, migrate and be a citizen
elsewhere before the extremist dig out your dead body and do another
burial for you. If there is court case then your body may end up rotting
in the courtroom.
Bill Gates should be wary of this when he is setting up his MSC shop in
KL.
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
>
> Toh Puan Bunny Suffian, 80, died of cancer at the General Hospital
> in Kuala Lumpur last Thursday, and was to have been cremated
> yesterday. But her husband, Tun Mohamed Suffian, also 80, retired
> Lord President of Malaysia, could not recover her body as his brother
> had staked a claim and wanted her buried according to Islamic rights.
> Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
> their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
> years was this challenged.
>
Azmi Shahrin
sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
> Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian
> woman
> is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat
> being
> married to a christian lady ...
>
> As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
> asking you, just in case you're in the know.
>
> wassalam,
> .sabre
I support your post. Islam recognizes marriage between muslims and ahli
kitab. Allah recognizes the mariage. But our malaysian Gov. has
disallowed it.
Wassalam.
azmi shahrin
Azmi Shahrin
Kamel Yusoh wrote:
If I may add, overwhelming concensus among Muslim scholar and practise
> among muslim worldwide worldwide most christian today does not fulfill
>
> "people of the book" criteria. So, no such thing as Malaysia variant
> as
> u want to conviniently believe.
>
> Rgds.
Kamel,
At the time of Mohamed, ahli ktab of the day - the Jews and the
Christians have already rejected his message. The Jews denied Jesus,
they still do today. the christians believe in trinity, they still do
today. Mohamed called them ahli kitab then. The jews and the christians
have not changed anything fundamental regarding their beliefs between
then and today. therefore they are still ahli kitab.
Islam as practised in malaysia is not always what it should be.
wassallam
azmi shahrin
Ken!!!
are you trying to say that the malaysian religious laws for moslems
are different as compared to those that are stated by true Islamic
laws? if so, what's going on? are the malaysian religious councils
overriding whatever laws they are supposed to enforce?
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:26:10 +0800, ne...@sabri.pc.my (sabre 2/3
newsmaster) wrote:
>Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian woman
>is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat being
>married to a christian lady ...
>
>As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
>asking you, just in case you're in the know.
>
*************************************
remove SPAMMERSDIE for correspondence
*************************************
Kamel Yusoh
sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
> Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian
> woman
> is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat
> being
> married to a christian lady ...
Check your fact Sabri. Suha Arafat was a christian. You might see in the
media last Christmas she celebrates Christmas at Betelhem (not sure
ofspelling) but that's a cultural thing. Anyway, she can be one of those
"people of the book", u know anything about that.
> As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
> asking you, just in case you're in the know.
AFAIK, yes.
Rgds.
michael
In article <34409CAF...@pc.jaring.my> ka...@pc.jaring.my writes:
[deleted]
>If I may add, overwhelming concensus among Muslim scholar and practise
>among muslim worldwide worldwide most christian today does not fulfill
>"people of the book" criteria. So, no such thing as Malaysia variant as
>u want to conviniently believe.
Perhaps you can enlighten me on why present day Christians
would not fulfill the "people of the book" criteria.
I thought I had understood this point in August but now you are
reviving this again. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
*quote from the Quran please. :) *
michael
In article <3440F9C7...@pc.jaring.my> ka...@pc.jaring.my writes:
>
>michael wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you can enlighten me on why present day Christians
>> would not fulfill the "people of the book" criteria.
>> I thought I had understood this point in August but now you are
>> reviving this again. :)
Forget about August then.
You may start afresh. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
M.G.G. Pillai
If that be so, why the necessity of burying Toh Puan Bunny as a
Muslim?
MGG
>Rgds.
>
>
>
M.G.G. Pillai
In article <3440E4BB...@pc.jaring.my>, Azmi Shahrin (azm...@pc.jaring.my) writes:
>sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
>
>> Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian
>> woman
>> is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat
>> being
>> married to a christian lady ...
>>
>> asking you, just in case you're in the know.
>>
>> .sabre
>
>I support your post. Islam recognizes marriage between muslims and ahli
>kitab. Allah recognizes the mariage. But our malaysian Gov. has
>disallowed it.
>
>Wassalam.
>
>azmi shahrin
>
Could you please point out by what legislation has this been
disallowed? And whether that legislation has retroactive effect,
that those Muslims who married Christians before that was passed
(if indeed there is one) would have to ensure that their spouses
convert. I am uncertain that there is such a law. My Muslim
friends, especially those who insist that this is so, have not
provided that information to me. Could any of you help?
MGG
>
>
M.G.G. Pillai
In article <3440F879...@pc.jaring.my>, Kamel Yusoh (ka...@pc.jaring.my) writes:
>> Kamel,
>>
>> At the time of Mohamed, ahli ktab of the day - the Jews and the
>> Christians have already rejected his message. The Jews denied Jesus,
>> they still do today. the christians believe in trinity, they still do
>> today. Mohamed called them ahli kitab then. The jews and the
>> christians
>> have not changed anything fundamental regarding their beliefs between
>> then and today. therefore they are still ahli kitab.
>>
>> Islam as practised in malaysia is not always what it should be.
>>
>> wassallam
>>
>> azmi shahrin
>
>
>Rgds.
>
You mean only experts can discuss the subject? Are you perchance
an expert?
MGG
M.G.G. Pillai
In article <971012.192305...@sabri.pc.my>, sabre 2/3 newsmaster (ne...@sabri.pc.my) writes:
>>> Syariah Law, Kamel? AFAIK, doing so is legal under Islamic law.
>> That's not what AFAIK. Enlighten me Sabre.
>
>is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat being
>married to a christian lady ...
>
>As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
>asking you, just in case you're in the know.
>
>wassalam,
>.sabre
>
I know of a former Guthries manager, an Englishman, who lost his job
when he married a Malay woman in the late 1950s, and in the late
1960s, was harassed by the Religious Department because, although
his children were brought up as Muslims, he himself would not
convert: he still lives in Kuala Lumpur and a friend of mine, that
he is not required to. But he paid heavily for his beliefs. He
was detained under the Internal Security Act in the 1970s, and
spend two years in the notorious Batu Gajah camp.
M.G.G. Pillai
pil...@mgg.pc.my
M.G.G. Pillai
In article <87667282...@wang.pc.my>, michael (mic...@wang.pc.my) writes:
>In article <34409CAF...@pc.jaring.my> ka...@pc.jaring.my writes:
>[deleted]
>>If I may add, overwhelming concensus among Muslim scholar and practise
>>among muslim worldwide worldwide most christian today does not fulfill
>>"people of the book" criteria. So, no such thing as Malaysia variant as
>>u want to conviniently believe.
>
>would not fulfill the "people of the book" criteria.
>I thought I had understood this point in August but now you are
>reviving this again. :)
>
The People of the Book share the same cemetry in several countries
in the Middle East (oops, sorry, it should be West Asia, to be
politically correct). They marry each other. And I had a riotous
lunch in Baghdad in the early 1990s with senior government
officials -- Muslims and Jews -- at which not only was pork
served, but the Muslim chef who cooked it came to the table to say
it was his specialty! The Muslims did not eat pork, nor did I
since I have not for decades, but the others enjoyed themselves.
MGG
MGG
Kamel Yusoh
Kamel Yusoh
michael wrote:
> Perhaps you can enlighten me on why present day Christians
> would not fulfill the "people of the book" criteria.
> I thought I had understood this point in August but now you are
> reviving this again. :)
>
> regards,
> michael ... afn2...@afn.org
> *quote from the Quran please. :) *
What do u understand in August. I did not exist in this newsgroup then.
Rgds.
sabre 2/3 newsmaster
Kamel Yusoh <ka...@pc.jaring.my> writes:
> sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
>> Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian
>> woman is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as
>> Arafat being married to a christian lady ...
> media last Christmas she celebrates Christmas at Betelhem (not sure
> ofspelling) but that's a cultural thing.
Thanks for the correction Kamel. It would be really a help to me if you
can tell me where to look for a reference on the fact Suha Arafat *was*
a Christian, and now is no longer a Christian (and is now a Muslim).
I think, all the reference in magazines such as Time, Newsweek that I
read, refers to Suha as a Christian.
wassalam,
.sabre
Kamel Yusoh
sabre 2/3 newsmaster wrote:
> Thanks for the correction Kamel. It would be really a help to me if
> you
> can tell me where to look for a reference on the fact Suha Arafat
> *was*
> a Christian, and now is no longer a Christian (and is now a Muslim).
Mentioned in a TV documentary about her sometime ago.
> I think, all the reference in magazines such as Time, Newsweek that I
> read, refers to Suha as a Christian.
Hardly credible in my book after what they done to my beloved PM.
> wassalam,
> .sabre
Does Arafat has email, maybe we can asked him.
Rgds.
A.A. Shafie - APEME
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
>
To all those who wrote; well since this is actually a touchy subject for
most people, on muslim and non-muslim marrying each other. The fact is a
non-muslim woman (jews and christian) can marry a muslim man. Its not
the same the other way round and I think thats why your friend been
detained.
The debate on whether christian and jews now are ahli kitab is still on,
and since its is still ongoing among the ulamas then I suggest that we
hand off the subject. This is just a way for muslims or anyone who is
not an expert among the subject to disscuss this.
However why the spouse always convert is something that most peple don't
know. As far as I know there is no laws that requires them but for most
its either the preassure from the family or they convert themselves.
Well I'm sorry...if the explainations do not sound critical.. or flaming
as others but its the way it is.
-amir-
Kamel Yusoh
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
> >AFAIK, yes.
> >
>
> If that be so, why the necessity of burying Toh Puan Bunny as a
> Muslim?
>
> MGG
Correction, AFAIK, no.
Kamel Yusoh
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
> The People of the Book share the same cemetry in several countries
> in the Middle East (oops, sorry, it should be West Asia, to be
> politically correct). They marry each other. And I had a riotous
> lunch in Baghdad in the early 1990s with senior government
> officials -- Muslims and Jews -- at which not only was pork
> served, but the Muslim chef who cooked it came to the table to say
> it was his specialty! The Muslims did not eat pork, nor did I
> since I have not for decades, but the others enjoyed themselves.
>
> MGG
In my kampong one can go around in a motor cycle without a helmet and a
licence and the police doesn't care. MGG, if u come to my kampong and
see this don't make a mistake of assuming its ok. to go around on a
motor cycle without a helmet and a license. Worst is u start arguing
about it with a KL cop. Worser after u realise what's happening u bribe
the cop. Worsest is u start arguing about it on the Internet.
Rgds.
Kamel Yusoh
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
> You mean only experts can discuss the subject? Are you perchance
> an expert?
>
> MGG
No and no I'm not an expert as I had mentioned earlier. Would be good if
Azmi Sharin is an expert on "people of the books".
How bout u, u an expert by any chance?
Rgds.
Raju
In article <971012.192305...@sabri.pc.my>,
ne...@sabri.pc.my says...
>
>As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
>asking you, just in case you're in the know.
Yes, please post. I would like to know. Under Malaysian Syariah Law,
can a Malaysian Muslim marry any body who is "people of the book"?
This include Jews too. Correct?
Raju
In article <34420C...@dundee.ac.uk>,
a.a.s...@dundee.ac.uk says...
>
>To all those who wrote; well since this is actually a touchy subject for
>most people, on muslim and non-muslim marrying each other. The fact is a
>non-muslim woman (jews and christian) can marry a muslim man. Its not
>the same the other way round and I think thats why your friend been
>detained.
Ahh..This is just too confusing. Can't we all get along and inter-marry
one another? Don't care whether you're Jew, Christian or Muslim. Let's
mixed our blood and one big happy family!!!
Raju
In article <3440E4BB...@pc.jaring.my>, azm...@pc.jaring.my says...
>
>I support your post. Islam recognizes marriage between muslims and ahli
>kitab. Allah recognizes the mariage. But our malaysian Gov. has
>disallowed it.
Is there a reference to this law? Please post the URL of the
Malaysian Govt Law Web site.
Raju
In article <34406B69...@pc.jaring.my>,
ka...@pc.jaring.my says...
>
>I am an ordinary practising muslim not a scholar, so I cannot give u
>much details, but a muslim is allowed to marry "ahli kitab" or "people
>of the books". Maybe a more knowledgable person can elaborate on this to
>christian today does not fulfill "people of the book" criteria.
Hi! That means a muslim can marry a Jew too. Correct?
Hmm.. how come that Msian Immigration officer says "no can do"?
Azmi Shahrin
M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
> If that be so, why the necessity of burying Toh Puan Bunny as a
> Muslim?
>
> MGG
>
> >Rgds.
Just to please the sensitivities of the sensitive malay muslim majority?
azmi shahrin
Kamel Yusoh
Raju wrote:
> IAhh..This is just too confusing. Can't we all get along and
> inter-marry
> one another? Don't care whether you're Jew, Christian or Muslim. Let's
>
> mixed our blood and one big happy family!!!
My engineer friend say quite difficult trying to create "Utopia", better
as it is and respect each other.
Azmi Shahrin
Kamel Yusoh wrote:
> No and no I'm not an expert as I had mentioned earlier. Would be good
> if
> Azmi Sharin is an expert on "people of the books".
>
> How bout u, u an expert by any chance?
>
> Rgds.
I am no expert. i am just expressing my understanding and observation of
the marriage practice between muslims and ahli kitab.
I am still waiting for proof that the christians and jews at the time of
mohamed were not the christians and jews they are today. AFAIK the
christians were already believing in trinity and the jews ...well they
crucified Jesus, didn't they?
I still maintain that if they were no fundamental difference in their
beliefs, then mohamed were identifying the christians who were believing
in trinity and the jews who denied Jesus and Mohamed, as ahli kitab.
I do not buy the arguement that ahli kitab during Mohamed's time was
different from the christians and jews of today, because nothing
concerning their beliefs have changed fundamentally.
I also do not buy the reasoning that ahli kitab refers to believers of
the original Torah, Zabur and Injil. By the time of Mohamed the Injil is
already 400 years old and the Torah perhaps 1000+ years. Certainly
Mohamed cannot be referring to these believers who were already dead?
Looking for a good discussion.
Azmi Shahrin
sac...@pc.jaring.my
Hi Abdi,
myl...@pop.jaring.my (abdi) wrote:
>Quoted from the Quraan, Al-Mumtahana 60:10 ........"Do not hold on to
>ties of marriage with unbelieving women: ............"
I rather though that this verse related to women leaving their
husbands of their own will. In context it would indicate that she
would have her wealth returned to her, minus the husbands expenditure
on her. It does not appear to have any prohibitive aspect, but I look
forward to hearing the reasoning behind interpreting it in that
fashion.
>Quoted from the Quraan, Al-Maida 5:5 ........"Lawful to you are the
>free believing women and the free women from among those who were
>given the Book before you,..........."
This verse does not exclude non-believing women, who are specifically
included in the chapter of women. As always, the difficulty of
interpretation rears its head.
>Now you may like to go further on what is a "Musyrik". What religion
>may be categorised as Musyrik. That is another story.
Is Musyrik idolatery?
I know you did not say this, but...
>>are you trying to say that the malaysian religious laws for moslems
>>are different as compared to those that are stated by true Islamic
>>laws? if so, what's going on? are the malaysian religious councils
>>overriding whatever laws they are supposed to enforce?
AFAIK, customary law of the cummunity is acceptable to Islam.
IIRC, the usual view is that a hierachy of
Al-Quran (and other books in *original* form)
Hadith
and
Customs of the believing community.
So their is wide latitude for the councils within Islamic law.
>Read the Quraan and you will know more.
Always good advice.
God bless
Paul
abdi
Fasal keturunan ini janagan main-main. Mana taukan mungkin pulak yang
ada darah AIDS. Lets remain confused.
On 14 Oct 1997 00:52:59 GMT, Ra...@itt.nospamming.com (Raju) wrote:
>Ahh..This is just too confusing. Can't we all get along and inter-marry
>one another? Don't care whether you're Jew, Christian or Muslim. Let's
>mixed our blood and one big happy family!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Read the Quraan and you will know more.
abdi
Quoted from the Quraan, Al-Mumtahana 60:10 ........"Do not hold on to
ties of marriage with unbelieving women: ............"
Quoted from the Quraan, Al-Maida 5:5 ........"Lawful to you are the
free believing women and the free women from among those who were
given the Book before you,..........."
However if you read further in Sura Al-Maida, you will find a lot
mentioned about Jews and Christians and about the People of the Book.
But there it is revealed that 5:13 "But because they broke their
convenant............They dislocate the words (of the Scriptures) from
their places and have forgotten a portion of what they were
enjoined....". Then in 5:14 "....We made convenant also, but they too
have forgotten much of what they were enjoined........" So the Book is
now missing somewhere.
Going back to Al-Maida 5:5, there is now questioned whether the
"People of the Book before you" still applies.
There is a Malay translation from Al-Baqarah 2:221 "Janganlah kamu
kawini perempuan-perempuan yang mempersekutukan Tuhan (Musyrik)
sebelum mereka beriman" from Vol 5, page 47, Al-Umm (Kitab Induk)
Al-Imam-Asy-Syafi'i R.A, translated by Prof. Tk. H. Ismail Yakub,
Edisi Malaysia, Published by Victory Agency, KL.
Now you may like to go further on what is a "Musyrik". What religion
may be categorised as Musyrik. That is another story.
From the above, is it still legal for a good Muslim to marry a present
day Christian?
Someone can answer that.
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:06:55 GMT, na...@pacific.SPAMMERSDIE.net.sg
(Ken!!!) wrote:
>are you trying to say that the malaysian religious laws for moslems
>are different as compared to those that are stated by true Islamic
>laws? if so, what's going on? are the malaysian religious councils
>overriding whatever laws they are supposed to enforce?
>
>
>On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:26:10 +0800, ne...@sabri.pc.my (sabre 2/3
>newsmaster) wrote:
>
>>Hmm ... AFAIK, As Far As I Know, a muslim man marrying a christian woman
>>is legal under Islamic law. Hence we do have, muslims such as Arafat being
>>married to a christian lady ...
>>
>>As to the legality of that under Malaysian Syariah Law, is what I was
>>asking you, just in case you're in the know.
>>
>
>*************************************
>remove SPAMMERSDIE for correspondence
>*************************************
Kamel Yusoh
> I am no expert. i am just expressing my understanding and observation
> of
> the marriage practice between muslims and ahli kitab.
If u are not an expert, under what authority are u expressing your
understanding and observation on. I am basing my view as Sunni of the
Shafie sect.
If its just your personal view, sorry ! it doesn't hold water.
> I am still waiting for proof that the christians and jews at the time
> of
> mohamed were not the christians and jews they are today.
The onus of proof is yours
> AFAIK the
> christians were already believing in trinity and the jews ...well
> theycrucified Jesus, didn't they? I still maintain that if they were
> no fundamental difference in their beliefs, then mohamed were
> identifying the christians who were believing in trinity and the jews
> who denied Jesus and Mohamed, as ahli kitab.
This is not a matter for you to still maintain anything. since u are not
an expert, quote an expert view.
> I do not buy the arguement that ahli kitab during Mohamed's time was
> different from the christians and jews of today, because nothing
> concerning their beliefs have changed fundamentally. I also do not buy
> the reasoning that ahli kitab refers to believers of the original
> Torah, Zabur and Injil. By the time of Mohamed the Injil is already
> 400 years old and the Torah perhaps 1000+ years. Certainly Mohamed
> cannot be referring to these believers who were already dead?
Personal view..? What is it about the water.....
> Looking for a good discussion.
That's good enough discussion for u??
> Azmi Shahrin
Rgds.
Kamel
Ken!!!
i dunno about legally, but from some of the hatred of the Jewish
people i see posted in SCM, the couple may get lynched....
On 14 Oct 1997 00:40:03 GMT, Ra...@itt.nospamming.com (Raju) wrote:
>Yes, please post. I would like to know. Under Malaysian Syariah Law,
>can a Malaysian Muslim marry any body who is "people of the book"?
>This include Jews too. Correct?
>
>
*************************************
abdi
On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:47:11 GMT, sac...@pc.jaring.my wrote:
(snip in many places)
>I rather though that this verse related to women leaving their
>husbands of their own will. In context it would indicate that she
>would have her wealth returned to her, minus the husbands expenditure
>on her. It does not appear to have any prohibitive aspect, but I look
>forward to hearing the reasoning behind interpreting it in that
>fashion.
>
>This verse does not exclude non-believing women, who are specifically
>included in the chapter of women. As always, the difficulty of
>interpretation rears its head.
>
>I know you did not say this, but...
>
>Paul
>
I would like to discuss further on believing women and belief. Also on
People of the Book. This is a very complex issues and open to many
interpretation especially so the discussion is in English. If in
Arabic (I do not read or speak Arabic except when I write Jawi or when
reading the Quraan) then the discussion points can be very clear.
I only wish to quote translations from the Quraan and it is up to the
readers to interprete their meanings.
In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Al-Baqara 2:1 "Alif lam min. This book is not to be doubt. It is a
guide for the righteous, who have faith in the unseen and are
steadfast in prayers;"
Al-Baqara 2:6 "Those who disbelieve, whether you forewarn them or not,
they will not have faith."
Al-Baqara 2:52 "WE treated with Musa for forty nights, but in his
absence you took up the calf and worshipped it, thus committing evil."
Al-Baqara 2:78 "There are illiterate men among them who, ignorant of
the Scriptures, know of nothing except lies and vague fancies."
Al-Baqara 2: 87 "To Musa We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent
other messengers."
Al-Baqara 2:109 "Many of the People of the Book wish, through envy, to
lead you back to unbelief, now that you have embraced the faith and
the truth has beeb made plain to them."
Al-Baqara 2:111 "They declare: "None but the Jews and Christians shall
be admitted to Paradise." Such are their wishful fancies."
Al-Baqara 2:221 "You shall not wed idolatresses, unless they embrace
the faith."
Al-Imran 3:5 "It is He who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its
verses are precise in meaning - they are the foundation of the Book -
and others allegorical. Those whose hearts are infecyed with disbelief
follow the allegorical part, so as to create dissention and to
interpret it."
Al-Imran 3:78 "And there are among them who twist their tongues when
quoting the Book, so that you may think that what they say is from the
Book, whereas it is not."
Al-Imran 3:102 "Believers, fear Allah as you rightly should, and do
not die except as Muslims."
Luqman 31:13 "And (remember when Luqman said to his son when
admonishing him: "My son, associate none with Allah, for to associate
others with Him is a tremendous wrong."
Al-Muminun 23:80 "It is He who gives life and death, and His is the
alteration of the night and the day. can you not understand?"
Al-Muminun 23:91 "Never has Allah begotten a son, nor is there any
other god besides Him."
Al-Muminun 23:117 "He that invokes another god besides Allah - a god
of whose divinity he has no proof - his reckoning will be only with
his Lord."
Yunus 10:68 "They say: "Allah has begotten a son." Allah forbid!"
Al-Maida 5:73 "Unbelievers are those that say: "Allah is one of
three."
Al-Nisa 4:171 "People of the Book, do not transgress the bounds of
your religion. Speak nothing but the truth about Allah. Al-Masih, Isa
son of Mariam, was no more than Allah's Apostle and His Words which he
cast to Mariam: a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His
apostles and do not say: "Three"."
Al-An'am 6:101 "He is the Creator of heavens and earth. How could He
have a son when He has no consort?"
Al-Tawba 9:30 "The Jews say Uzayr is the son of Allah, while
Christians say al-Masih is the son of Allah."
Al-Tawba 9:33 "It is He who has sent forth His Apostle with guidance
and the true faith to make it triumphants over all religion, however
much the polytheists may dislike it."
Al-Tawba 9:84 "you shall not pray for any of their dead, nor shall you
attend their burial. For they deny Allah and His Apostle and remained
sinners to the last."
Al-Nisa 4:82 "Will they not ponder on the Quraan?"
Al-Nisa 4:103 "....attend regularly to your prayers so long as you are
safe: for prayer is a duty incumbant on the faithful, to be conducted
at appointed hours."
Al-Nisa 4:150 "Those that deny Allah and His apostles, and thise that
draw a line between Allah and His apostles, saying: "We believe in
some, but deny others," -thus seeking a middle way - these indeed are
the unbelievers."
Al-Maida 5:104 "When it is said to them: "Come to that which Allah has
revealed, and to the Apostle," they reply: "Sufficient, for us is the
faith we have inherited from our fathers," even though their fathers
knew nothing and were not rightly guided."
Al-An'am 6:116 ' If you obeyed the greater part of mankind, they would
lead you away from Allah's path. They follow nothing but idle fancies
and preach nothing but falsehoods."
Al-An'am 6:121 "The devils will inspire their friends to argue with
you. If you obey them, you shall indeed become polytheists."
Al-An'am 6:136 "They set aside for Allah a share of what He has
created of tilth and cattle saying: "This is for Allah' - so they
pretend - "and this is for our associate-gods." The share of their
associate-gods never reaches Allah, but Allah's share reaches their
associate-gods. How ill they judge!"
Yunus 10:34 "Say; 'can any of your partners (associate-gods) produce a
Creation, then reproduce it? Allah produces a Creation, then
reproduces it. how is it that you are so misled?"
Al-Anfal 8:31 "Whenever Our revelations are recited to them, they say;
"We have heard them. If we wished, we could speak the like. They are
but fables of the ancients."
Yunus 10:15 "When Our clear revelation are recited to them, those who
do not hope to meet Us say to you: "Bring us a Quraan other than this,
or make changes in it."
Al-Hijr 15:2 "A day will surely come when those who disbelieve will
wish that they are Muslims."
Ahmad Md. Saman
michael <mic...@wang.pc.my> wrote in article
<87667282...@wang.pc.my>...
> In article <34409CAF...@pc.jaring.my> ka...@pc.jaring.my writes:
> [deleted]
> >If I may add, overwhelming concensus among Muslim scholar and practise
> >among muslim worldwide worldwide most christian today does not fulfill
> >"people of the book" criteria. So, no such thing as Malaysia variant as
> >u want to conviniently believe.
>
> Perhaps you can enlighten me on why present day Christians
> would not fulfill the "people of the book" criteria.
sebab ,
1. mereka makan daging babi.
2. mereka minum minuman keras.
3. mereka tidak mengaku kerasulan ( messenger of Allah ) Nabi Muhammad
S.A.W
4. Mereka makan daging binatang yang tidak di sembelih ( slaughtered )
dengan menyebut nama Allah..
5. Mereka tidak menyebut Bismillah ( in the name of Allah ) ketika hendak
makan.
6. mereka percaya Nabi Isa a.s di salib.
7. mereka percaya Nabi Isa a.s anak Tuhan dan Siti Mariam isteri Tuhan.
8. mereka tidak mengikut kitab Injil yang asal ( original version ).
Jika kamu temui mereka yang begini , mereka bukan ahli kitab.
saya rasa mungkin sudah tidak ada lagi generasi mereka ini.
dan orang Kristian hari ini ( yang saya pernah jumpa ) bukan ahli kitab.
Ahli kitab smada pengikut taurat , zabur dan Injil mereka semua nya
mentauhidkan Allah ( they accept there is no God but Allah ) dan mereka
tidak mempunyai ciri-ciri yang saya sebutkan di atas.
saya harap kamu boleh memahami bahasa melayu .
John Chua
Kamel Yusoh <ka...@pc.jaring.my><343FC5FD...@pc.jaring.my>
wrote:
>M.G.G. Pillai wrote:
>
>> Toh Puan Bunny Suffian, 80, died of cancer at the General Hospital
>> in Kuala Lumpur last Thursday, and was to have been cremated
>> yesterday. But her husband, Tun Mohamed Suffian, also 80, retired
>> Lord President of Malaysia, could not recover her body as his brother
>> had staked a claim and wanted her buried according to Islamic rights.
>> Toh Puan Bunny remained both a British subject and a Christian after
>> their marriage in London in 1946. At no time during the past 51
>> years was this challenged.
>
>At issue is whether Toh Puan Bunny Suffian died a muslim. She is married
>to Tun Mohamed Sufian and being a malay, he is a muslim according to the
>constitution, and Toh Puan Bunny Sufian is deem a muslim else their
>marriage is illegal under muslim law. I assume, at no time during the
>past 51 years the legality of their marriage is being challenged.
>Moreover, three witness saw her cites the kalimah shahadah (yes that is
>enough to make her a muslim)
Hi there, I have little idea who the two persons in question are (hey
call me ignorant of some of the people in Malaysia's history ok? (= )
but I'd like to raise a point which seemed quite obvious.
Who were the three witnesses? Were they independant? It seems from
Pillai's article (whose veracity I am in no position to question) that
the three could have included said relatives who wished to bury her in
the Muslim way which would have meant that they had just a wee bit (to
understate) of a vested interest in such an outcome.
I'm not making any comment on which burial method/religion/any other
incriminating thing is better etc. cos FYI I prefer to by cremated
(save space etc.) and that method doesn't seem to figure (=
John!
.,-~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,.
ATTENTION: To reply via e-mail, remove the X's
from the start and end of my e-mail address!
John Chua
john...@melbpc.org.au
ATTENTION: To reply via e-mail, remove the X's
from the start and end of my e-mail address!
.,-~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,.
Ken!!!
but the Koran, which is the holy book of the Moslems, is usually
ignored in the madness of mob violence and mass hysteria... which is
so easy to stir up....
which was the point of my post... hopefully none of these things will
happen....
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:26:19 GMT, myl...@pop.jaring.my (abdi) wrote:
>I think before we start debating this "People of the Book" stuff, we
>should first understand what "The Book" means.
>
>Yesterday I posted many quotes from the Quraan. Read them, understand
>them then discuss. Or else........its a waste of everybody's time and
>bytes.
>
>Read the Quraan and you will know more.
>
*************************************
michael
If they had done everything that you have listed, they would
be Muslims and there was no necessity for the Holy Prophet to
make special mention of People of the Book as found in the
Surahs below .....
----------------------------------------------
4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion:
Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of
Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word,
which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from
Him: so bel ieve in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" :
desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be
to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him
belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is
God as a Disposer of a ffairs.
9:29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor
hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and
His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if
they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya
with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call
Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in
this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say.
God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from
the Truth!
5:6
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you.
The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and
yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are
(not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste
women among the People of the Book, revealed before
your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire
chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects
faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in
the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
------------------------------------
I have been trying to find verses in the Surah that disqualifies
a person to be referred to as People of the Book but I have not
been able to do that.
Should you have the relevant verses, kindly point them out to me.
Your kindness will be very much appreciated.
>Ahli kitab smada pengikut taurat , zabur dan Injil mereka semua nya
>mentauhidkan Allah ( they accept there is no God but Allah ) dan mereka
>tidak mempunyai ciri-ciri yang saya sebutkan di atas.
>
>saya harap kamu boleh memahami bahasa melayu .
No problem.
I can. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
abdi
I think before we start debating this "People of the Book" stuff, we
should first understand what "The Book" means.
Yesterday I posted many quotes from the Quraan. Read them, understand
them then discuss. Or else........its a waste of everybody's time and
bytes.
Read the Quraan and you will know more.
On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:21:33 GMT, na...@pacific.SPAMMERSDIE.net.sg
(Ken!!!) wrote:
>i dunno about legally, but from some of the hatred of the Jewish
>people i see posted in SCM, the couple may get lynched....
>
>
>On 14 Oct 1997 00:40:03 GMT, Ra...@itt.nospamming.com (Raju) wrote:
>
>>Yes, please post. I would like to know. Under Malaysian Syariah Law,
>>can a Malaysian Muslim marry any body who is "people of the book"?
>>This include Jews too. Correct?
>>
>>
>