Nana & Shichi

[David]

Hi,

I have two questions about the use of nana and shichi, can anyone help
me out?

1) Are there any rules to differentiate when to use nana and when to
use shichi? What are they?

2) Besides the usual Chinese versus Japanese origins, does anyone have
information on the historical development of nana and shichi?

Thanks for your help,

David

[健太郎]

David wrote:
>[.........]

>
>1) Are there any rules to differentiate when to use nana and when to
>use shichi? What are they?
>

Yes.

In principle, when the word consists of more than two characters,
1) if the word is YAMATO-KOTOBA, then you read it "nana."
2) if the word is KANGO, then you read it "shichi."

e.g.
1)
七所nana-tokoro
七色nana-iro
七代nana-yo
　
2)
七所（shichi-sho）
七彩shichi-sai
七代shichi-dai

But there are some words on which both "nana" and "shichi" are acceptable
e.g.
十七条（juu-shichi-jou or juu-nana-jou）
十七文字
七月
七十七

And there are some words unacceptable as well
For instance
七色(nana-iro) is usually not read as shichi-shoku.

>2) Besides the usual Chinese versus Japanese origins, does anyone have
>information on the historical development of nana and shichi?
>

The "nana" is derived from Tungus dialect,
and the "shichi" is derived from the old pronunciation of
ancient China, GO-era.

＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
kentaro＠tokyo

[David]

Thanks . . .

Is there any validity to the suggest that I have come across in some
grammars that nana became more common because of the possiblility of
mistaking ichi for shichi?

Is there any evidence for the common statement that yon is used more
commonly than shi and kokonotsu rather than ku/kyu because of their
negative homophonic meanings?

Thanks,

David

"健太郎" <kent_...@d1.dion.ne.jp> wrote in message news:<SXYlc.331$Cq5...@news1.dion.ne.jp>...

> David wrote:
> >[.........]
> >
> >1) Are there any rules to differentiate when to use nana and when to
> >use shichi? What are they?
> >
>
> Yes.
>
> In principle, when the word consists of more than two characters,
> 1) if the word is YAMATO-KOTOBA, then you read it "nana."
> 2) if the word is KANGO, then you read it "shichi."
>
> e.g.
> 1)

> ??圭nana-tokoro
> ??型nana-iro
> ??径nana-yo
> 　
> 2)
> ??圭蝓shichi-sho）
> ??刑shichi-sai
> ??径shichi-dai

>
>
> But there are some words on which both "nana" and "shichi" are acceptable
> e.g.

> 十??窪苳賜（juu-shichi-jou or juu-nana-jou）
> 十??景源
> ??祁
> ??圭拾踉桟

>
> And there are some words unacceptable as well
> For instance

> ??型(nana-iro) is usually not read as shichi-shoku.

[健太郎]

David wrote:
>[........]

>
>Is there any validity to the suggest that I have come across in some
>grammars that nana became more common because of the possiblility of
>mistaking ichi for shichi?
>

Yes, there is.
I dont think that "nana" has become more common but in talking Japanese
people use "nana" instead of "shichi" in some situations.
e.g
July ......................... NANA-GATSU for SHICHI-GATSU
7 years old .............NANA-SAI for SHICHI-SAI
7 points ....................NANA-TEN for SHICHI-TEN(SHITTEN)

In addtion to that it is a bit hard for Japanese to pronouce "shichi."

>Is there any evidence for the common statement that yon is used more
>commonly than shi and kokonotsu rather than ku/kyu because of their
>negative homophonic meanings?
>

Yes, there is. That happens in Japanese.

4:
the forth ....................... YON-BAN for SHI-BAN
the forth floor(US).....YON-KAI for SHI-KAI

9:
/*
Hmm, i couldn't come across that example now.
Probably there is no such examples.
*/

If you are interested in this theme,
search amazon and read this:
楳垣実 「日本の忌みことば」 1976 岩崎美術館

＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
kentaro＠tokyo

[Unforgiven]

健太郎 wrote:
>> Is there any evidence for the common statement that yon is used more
>> commonly than shi and kokonotsu rather than ku/kyu because of their
>> negative homophonic meanings?
>>
>
>
> Yes, there is. That happens in Japanese.
>
> 4:
> the forth ....................... YON-BAN for SHI-BAN
> the forth floor(US).....YON-KAI for SHI-KAI
>
> 9:
> /*
> Hmm, i couldn't come across that example now.
> Probably there is no such examples.
> */

My teacher once had an example of someone that had a license plate that read
"4219". That's not a nice plate number, since you can read it as "shi ni
iku". ^_^

--
Unforgiven

[David]

Once again, thank you so very much.

David

"健太郎" <kent_...@d1.dion.ne.jp> wrote in message news:<pCjmc.398$Cq5...@news1.dion.ne.jp>...