Is janko really the best option? (different instruments with janko-like qualities)

[Fernando Terra]

Hi, 

I would like to know what you guys think about instruments in which the keys are just equal "sticks" laying next to each other. Instruments like the haken continuum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnBhR8RLJN8), and the dodeka keyboard (http://www.dodeka.info/DodekaEnglish/Instruments.html). 

I came to the janko keyboard because it does a much better job at showing the relationship between notes than most other instruments. Although it does a worst job at that than something like the dodeka keyboard, for instance. Maybe the dodeka keyboard is cumbersome to play because the keys are to close to each other. I recognize, that the janko offers an elegant solution to the problem of offering a symmetric instrument with a piano like range, and I love my chromatone, but I would much rather play something like the dodeka keyboard even with a smaller range, or a haken continuum without the continuum and the insanely high prices. That simpler design, is easier on the brain, and that, for my purposes, is the most important thing.

I feel that most people come to the janko because they see in it a better version of the piano, which I think it is, and might believe that not being able to play the piano repertoire is a big lost. I play it manly for clarity, so for my purpose, instruments like the dodeka or the haken seem better. Was wondering if anyone here feel the same way.

Cheers, 

Fernando

[William Doran]

The Dodeka is an interesting keyboard! I hadn't seen that before. It kind of reminds me of guitars with Major 3rd tunings because they're both organized around that interval. However, maybe I'm being premature, but I can't imagine one playing virtuosic music on the Dodeka. Chords/pads and single note melodies might be okay, but anything with leaps looks like a nightmare. The only place your thumb can hit a key is at the very bottom! Maybe if you use the Baroque technique of just using 2-3-4-5, you'll be okay. I'll admit I could be very wrong as I've never played it and never seen anyone play it (I can't find a video). Until I see otherwise, though, I'm a little dubious (but would welcome being surprised!). For example, I can't imagine someone playing this on a Dodeka (Chopin Revolutionary Etude):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpXKg0wQUv0

Strangely, I like the Continuum okay (again, never played it though). I still think it's meant mostly for slow melodies/single lines. Maybe people don't use it for other things because it almost seems like a waste of the instrument's capabilities, I don't know. Sometimes I just really like the percussive attack of the piano, though (maybe 'cause I'm a jazz pianist, haha).

I don't own a Chromatone yet, but I do realize that the extra keys that play the same tone could get confusing. It gives more options for ergonomic fingering, but those options also mean you have to think about the best way to play a passage (like a guitar, again). I think that's something the piano has going for it: there's only one spot for each note. You just gotta figure out the fingering. 

A good compromise between the two seems to be a 2 row 6-6 keyboard, like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rko4p9HaQg

I don't think it's commercially available, though. 

I think it boils down to trying to find a middle ground between an easy to understand interface and an easy/ergonomic playing interface. It seems to me that some instrument makers focus so hard on the intellectual idea of the instrument they forget to think about making it easy to play. 

[William Doran]

I finally found the original 2 row 6-6 keyboard I was thinking about. Here it is, even though it's pretty apparent the performer isn't completely used to it yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGUD58gp6Fk&feature=youtu.be

[Corky Peavy]

Do you know if the keys are the same spacing as a regular keyboard?  If so, I modified one last week to be like that, and I can't play it, the spacing is too tight.   Possibly if all the keys were raised like black keys it wold work better?

[Doug Keislar]

Hmm, your picture doesn't look like a Janko keyboard as much as a Robbins keyboard:
http://www.google.com/patents/US2627777
A Janko has six keys in a row, not twelve:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard

Doug

[Doug Keislar]

Oh, never mind, now I see you were responding to a post about a Dodeka-like keyboard, not a Janko keyboard. If you look at the Robbins patent, especially Figures 4 and 6, you'll see that he made the keytops quite narrow so that there's a larger gap between the keys.  Not sure offhand what the measurement of the spacing is on the Robbins and Dodeka keyboards.  Maybe the Robbins patent discusses that question.

[Doug Keislar]

I looked through the Robbins patent.  His description of constructing the keyboard implies that it has the same octave span as a regular piano.
About a third of the way down this page:
http://www.dodeka.info/DodekaSpanish/Concepto.html
there is a diagram mapping a traditional keyboard to the Dodeka which suggests they have the same octave span.  Also notice the picture below that, showing the cross section of the keys, which looks like a similar strategy to the Robbins design but with slightly wider keytops.

[Doug Keislar]

By the way, Paul Vandervoort, who has been playing Janko-style keyboards for decades, initially built a Robbins-like keyboard.  He concluded it was too difficult to play, and then settled on a Janko-style design.

Looking at the photo of an adult hand on a Dodeka keyboard:
http://www.dodeka.info/DodekaEnglish/Instruments.html
I get the strong sense that it would be quite difficult to play, precisely because of the close spacing.  Look at that person's thumb squeezing sideways between two keys!

[Corky Peavy]

Yes, that was the case for me, way too narrow.   I might glue some narrow ridges to the keys just to complete the experiment, but next week I want to focus on building a Janko.   The path to destructively modifying a keyboard looks pretty straight forward if lengthy, but I'm going to also try to figure out how to do it as a "set on top" converter that could be plopped on any keyboard.   I know such a thing exists,

https://www.shapeways.com/product/C54M47C4C/upright-piano-whole-tone-keyboard-adaptor?li=gmerchant&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CK2lnq2khcwCFQEdaQod5h4AYQ

but is too expensive for most people (me too) @ $135/octave.   Pretty pricy for an experimental lark.   I explored using 3d printing, which may be what Paul Hirsch (the creator of that device) may be doing and that looked like just the printing would be quite expensive.   Oddly, wood might be cheaper.  


Very long shot, but perhaps I could make something that did ~4 octaves for ~$100 out of wood.   It probably would not be as good as Paul´s but might allow enough people to get started and help everyone decide if this kind of keyboard can really be a viable instrument.   Just dreaming though right now, ha ha.

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 6:21:43 AM UTC-5, Fernando Terra wrote:

[Corky Peavy]

Adding raised ridges made things MUCH more workable.   This might actually be viable.  The uprights are about 1/4 the thickness of a normal black key, so they are not invitingly touchable like piano keys, but they are miles better than - say - forming chords on a guitar.  It's like pressing a thick fin.   There is no problem at all pressing the keys from straight on or angles, at the tip, or way up on the key.

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 6:21:43 AM UTC-5, Fernando Terra wrote:

[gguitarwilly]

Hi Corky,

I would be interested to hearing of your experience playing the keyboard using the raised ridges. Do you plan to complete the keyboard this way?

Willem

Op woensdag 13 april 2016 08:07:10 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

[Corky Peavy]

Hi Willem,

Yes, I do plan to finish it, but at the moment I'm buried in the Janko conversion.   Since you have actually done this, you probably appreciate how hard it is to do the level of precision desired with hobby level tools.   I think I figured out how to build the spacer blocks today by building specialized miter "boxes".   My spacers need to have angles which makes it harder.   :-(   I hope to finish that by Tuesday, then I'll turn my attention back to the uniform keyboard with raised ridges.   

The challenge on the other keyboard is that the keys have to be cut down without destroying them.  I used a dremel vibrating saw tool for the first batch which worked but it was really rough.   I'm thinking about getting a hot knife to see if that works better before resuming.   Perhaps it would have been easier to build on top of the keys more like the Janko conversion...  dunno.    I also want to experiment with different width "fins" to see how wide and comfortable they can be before the seriously degrade ability to depress without conflict with other keys.   I must say, I was very surprised how easy it was to reach everything with the fins though.   

Perhaps if I'm lucky, at the end of next week I'll have both working.   

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 6:21:43 AM UTC-5, Fernando Terra wrote:

[Fernando Terra]

Hi, Corky. This is great. I'm really interested in what you are doing. I was planning on doing something similar. I was thinking on placing wood pieces on top of the keyboard keys though. Do you think it would be better for me to saw the keys as you did instead?

Thanks in advance. Great work. :)

[Corky Peavy]

It was very hard to cut the keys down w/o destroying them.  I'll try a hot knife for next phase.   In general building high structures on top of the keys makes me nervous about side to side strength though.   Will it hold up to a gliss?  Still building on top might be easier.   I'll know more soon enough.

[Corky Peavy]

Finally got this working tonight.  A friend with a laser cutter did the little fins on top.   I have zero practice time on it, the paint is still sticky even.   But it seems promising.   I did a little video ignoring music, but just trying to find something that does not "work".  

https://youtu.be/9PRyGHcJQb4

 It seems OK initially at least.   Now to invest a ton of hours into it and see how it compares to Janko.   

I wish there was some way we could pass these little experiments around and all try them.  As a rank beginner, I'm not the best judge for sure.   :-/   

[Joseph Austin]

Corky,

Looks really nice.  Keep us posted on your progress!

As for "spreading them around":  I tried loaning a Chromatone to my piano teacher's studio.  It attracted quite a lot of attention among the kids and a few teachers.  Then the thing started misbehaving--several of the notes stopped working--and now it sits in a corner unused.  Reliability is certainly a consideration for any instrument that will get handled by "the general public".  Home brew instruments may be particularly vulnerable, although in principle we could make them sturdier than devices mass-produced for the popular market.

[Dominique Waller]

Hi Corky,

Your video doesn’t run properly (meaning at the right speed), but anyway it’s very interesting. Your fingering on the keyboard reminds me of a two-row (symmetrical keyboard), more than a Janko. But maybe I’m biased.

            Just one question : is it comfortable for the fingers ?  Dominique

[Corky Peavy]

Odd about the video.   I'll try again later.   

You are right, this is not like a Janko. That's why I put it under this thread "Is Janko really best?"  It's a very different thing.   Mind I only have a few hours with it so far, but it looks like it's even better at "showing" what the music is doing.   Also, it relieves the worries about how far up the key your finger has to be.  Tradeoffs: Left right spacing of keys is tighter, so your finger chord spacing L/R will have to be more accurate, and you don't get "shapes" like Janko which is a mixed blessing.   It's not like a symmetrical keyboard though, because any given chord (i.e. a major triad) can, in fact must be, played exactly the same everywhere.  On the two row system you have to know two ways to play everything.   Way better than a piano, but still, this and Janko seem better.   

Janko to me is better than piano because any shape I play will sound the same anywhere.   Those lucky folks with "real" Jankos also have wider reach but my conversion lacks that benefit.  
Janko is worse than piano because the mechanics of fingering are a little harder because I have to care how far up my fingers are positioned which forces less natural shapes sometimes.  On Janko the fact that multiple shapes for the same thing are possible is a bit of a down side.   Omar's solution is to stick to one shape until you get more experienced.   Good advice, but hard to follow when I can do an easy transition to one shape, but a much harder one to stick with my standard shape.   I'm not even interested in playing piano, it just seems hostile to me.   I like Janko OK.

I just wanted to try this other option before settling down and making one or the other "my" instrument for life.   

Regarding comfort - it's certainly not like a piano which is gloriously comfortable and loves to be touched.   On the other hand it's not even remotely painful, like say forming chords on a guitar.   It's just there, it's fine, but not especially inviting to touch.   If I bang hard with curved fingers on the tips that hurts a little.  With flat fingers it does not hurt.   Possibly fingers would get tougher?   I can strike hard enough to get the full volume from the velocity sensitivity w/o any pain at all in any position.

[Corky Peavy]

This is much sturdier than my Janko conversion.   In fact the fins on top kind of turn the keys into little I beams that are quite tough and strong.   That long glue line of epoxy is super strong.   I had to remove a few and redo them, and it was ahhh... memorable!   ha ha

[Joseph Austin]

Corky,

I'm really curious how well you will be able to play that instrument.

I think I mentioned elsewhere that, after playing only in the key of C for a year, I got fairly good at playing by ear.

What I think happens is we begin to associate a tonal interval with a "reach".

If my supposition is correct, you should eventually get those chord shapes and interval shapes down pretty good.

You might end up having more trouble picking a key (absolute position) than playing a tune (relative position.)

My other question would be: how easily can you play at the extreme ends of the keyboard?

On Chromatone I found I would prefer different hand shapes at the ends than in the center

But with limited space between keys, I'd think your hand position might be uncomfortable at the ends--

you might need to twist your wrists more to keep fingers perpendicular to the keyboard,

in order to get fingers down between the fins.

(Or perhaps high curved fingers would work.)

Of course, a fix for that would be a curved keyboard--but feasible only if you create the instrument from scratch.

Joe

[Doug Keislar]

Congrats on the interesting conversion!

It would be informative to have a skilled pianist try it out.  I would think that certain things, like large, fast leaps, would be challenging (if not painful).  For example, I'm thinking of stride-piano left hand, where you often jump by over an octave at a fast speed to alternate between low single bass notes and chords higher up.  Would you be able to land on the fins accurately?  There doesn't seem to be much room for error in terms of where you land, and such things are already challenging enough on a regular piano, where you have a much larger landing surface.

-- Doug

[Corky Peavy]

Curved!  Well, actually that makes perfect sense, except building it like you say.   It seems less affected by angle than my Janko though.   For the moment it's hard for me to "find" chords.   

[Joseph Austin]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 1:49:28 AM UTC-4, Corky Peavy wrote:

   For the moment it's hard for me to "find" chords.   

Corky, The way I "find" notes and chords on my Chromatone is by using my 3x4 coloring system.

You may be able to make it out from this picture.  I made the mistake of using gold, sliver, and bronze for my three colors.

The heart shape was an available alternative to triangles or arrows.

--Don't use glossy--it reflects light that masks the colors.

--Use colors that can be easily distinguished in the available light

I'm planning to replace these with red, yellow, and blue matte.

See my website for details

http://drtechdaddy.com/2010/09/24/tonnetz-based-4x3-notation/

 

[gguitarwilly]

Hi Corky,

Your conversion looks very convincing. I'm curious what your playing experience will be.

Willem

Op woensdag 25 mei 2016 08:36:23 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

[Corky Peavy]

A better video I hope:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-3RPxpsF442b2swMHF4UFlaUnM/view?usp=sharing