Jandek Wire Interview Part Two

[arkhonia]

Corwood's contacting Seth Tisue about the Dylan 'booing' quote is far as I
can tell a first - Corwood obvious trusts this list as a reliable point of
contact with interested readers of the Wire article, and has never contacted
the list before...so, if


> There's no way the Representative booed Bob Dylan ever, for any reason

why has this quote been attributed to Sterling in Keenan's piece? I actually
heard this same anecdote on the N Ireland tour in 2009, chinese whispers,
but with Keenan (*not* Sterling) as source - is Keenan just repeating this
here, and that the conversation as published is actually a construct of some
kind?

And if Sterling *didn't* say this (Corwood's email seems pretty
categorical), how trustworthy are any of the other interview quotes?

I would imagine that Keenan himself would take any critique of his Wire
articles as a manifestation of the 'fan mind' he immediately attacks in the
opening of Part One - but, in the absence of 'countless internet sites and
mailing lists', any discussion of the Jandek interview is only really going
to take place here.

So.

I picked up the March Wire on the way to Friday's Cafe OTO, and despite my
own posted enthusiasms about Part One, I have some real problems with Part
Two.

Methodology: Keenan says


> I throw a digital recorder onto the covers [of the bed in the room the
> conversation is taking place] and [Sterling] looks at it like it's a
> timebomb"

.
So is this 'interview' actually a mixture of a surreptitiously-recorded
bunch of conversations plus, as shown here, an abuse of trust? Keenan has
been part of the Jandek orbit since 2009, with the N Ireland tour, where him
and Heather Leigh were the band; has he built up Sterling's trust since then
in order to have enough information to write the Wire pieces?

Detail: Part Two ends

> No one does cosmic, plain heartbreak like Jandek. 'I passed by the
> building you were working in', he sings on Blue Corpse (1987). Is that
> Smith in back on acoustic guitar? Is he even there at all?

Etc. Firstly, 'Smith' *doesn't* sing that line - and yes, it is him playing
guitar, but it's another person singing. Blue Corpse seems to have
alternating duets: Sterling plays guitar, 'Eddie' (an extrapolation from
'Down In The Ball Park', end of side one: "take it Eddie") vocals, or the
reverse. Nitpicking I know, but this point has been raised on and off since
1996 (on this list, if not any of the countless others - I dunno, I couldn't
find them).

Revisionism: in discussing Jandek live, Keenan mentions the players on
Glasgow Sunday 2005, including

> Heather Leigh, at this point Smith's longest term live and studio
> collaborator

This is incorrect - Alex Neilson is actually the 'longest term'
collaborator, from the first gig in 2004 through to Cafe OTO & Glasgow in
2013; Heather Leigh is David Keenan's wife. Alex doesn't even get a mention
in either piece - which is odd, as his role (alongside Richard Youngs) is
*crucial* to what Jandek live became. Why downplay Alex and trumpet his own
wife's role instead? Keenan does a similar thing with a new cassette label
he is starting:

> The first release on the label is a solo guitar album by Heather Leigh
> called Me-Ba, and Keenan says that: "hearing this total rethink of the
> possibilities of the six string guitar, with no parallel in terms of what
> contemporary female instrumentalists are doing, is what inspired me to
> start a label"

(from
http://www.thewire.co.uk/news/29245/first-release-on-david-keenan_s-new-cassette-label-from-heather-leigh).
A comment there suggest that maybe Keenan's objectivity may be compromised
by the fact that the unparalleled reinvention of guitar playing is by
someone very close to him...

Is there some kind of 'agenda' to these Wire articles that actually has
little to do with Jandek, and much more to do with Keenan himself?

Scans of Part Two are here
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2084460/jandek_wire_mar_2014.zip

Is it just me that feels that, in the light of Part Two, maybe this
'exclusive interview' isn't what it might have initially seemed to be? And
if Corwood is saying that at least one quote is a fabrication, isn't it
possible that, while The Wire itself published the articles in good faith,
that these are in fact as 'unofficial' as any transcription of private
conversations? What Sterling might say in private to David (or anyone else)
is not in any way commensurate with Corwood-approved quotes - and that
applies to anybody's private conversations with anyone.

If it is the latter, then Keenan has done some very good work in getting
access to Corwood in order to obtain source material - but that, maybe this
isn't at all how Jandek/Corwood/Sterling R Smith would choose to be
represented at all? This is not 'fan mind' speaking, rather a respect for
anyone not wishing to go 'on the record', about anything...

I'm asking the question here - would be very interested in what anyone else
might have to say in the light of the publication of Part Two.

Gavin



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[restl...@gmail.com]

Let's be clear. The email says 'there's no way the representative booed bob Dylan' it doesn't say 'that quote was fabricated'.

Maybe it's evidence of Mr J having a sense of humour? Something that was also in evidence at the recent Oto shows.

No artist interviewed for a magazine has any real say in how they appear. That's journalism. I feel you're extrapolating a lot from one email. Corwood must have agreed to the interview, the photoshoot. All that. To imply Keenan has somehow surreptitiously interviewed Jandek in some way without his consent seems a stretch.

The point about Alex Nielson is a fair one though.

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[Spencer Graham]

Thanks again Gavin for these scans. I'm not sure how to feel about your comments, not so much because I even disagree (I don't, pretty much) but because, well, that's just "rock journalism" for you. There's always going to be some distortion, some misrepresentation, in the translation from real life to article--any "profile" piece is inevitably going to end up containing as much of the writer as the ostensible subject. As a writer you want to try to make yourself disappear, but you can't accomplish it fully. And I think this is why Smith has only done three long-form interviews since 1978--and only two of them as the man behind Jandek!

Yeah Keenan is kind of a twerp at points and a self-promoter, but show me the music journalist who isn't. I'm so floored that Smith even agreed to this at all, to be honest, that I'm grateful even to see a glimpse of what he's like as a person through Keenan's dodgy lens. However skewed it may be (and again, I'm tempted to agree with you that it may, at points, be quite skewed), it's still the most complete picture of him just as a man, about town, we have. I'm glad for it.

I don't think Keenan was breaching trust in an really scandalous sense. Perhaps Sterling wasn't prepared to go as in-depth, but if anything is clear from the interview, it's that he's a smart guy, and he surely knew that he was going to be in for more than he bargained for. And it's to Keenan's credit, I think, that he includes Sterling's frequents bristlings at the intrusiveness he perceives. Is Keenan trying to seem cool? Hell yes. Again, this is the Wire.

I think the Newport remark needs to be taken together with the official denial from "Corwood". He was probably just kidding around--there even seems to be a sense of humor in the cold, press conference-esque manner in which he denied the truth of the statement. I think he might be playing with us! That Keenan appears to take him at his word is a little silly, but unlike Gavin I think this actually gives us ground to trust the rest of the article as accurate in terms of being Smith's actual statements. Whether he really "meant" them or not, whether he was tossing up lies to throw us stalkers off the trail, we can't know.

Which brings me to my last point--If there's anything the article communicates, to me at least, it's that the long-cherished "mystery" of Jandek, when you really get down to it, is (and excuse me for getting poetic from here on out) the mystery of every one of us. To put it in existentialist terms, it's the mystery of the human person as an abyss of subjectivity. When we hear Jandek's music, we want to know so badly who the man who made it is, but the truth is that he, just like us, is really no one in particular, or rather many people (something Fernando Pessoa understood). Everyone is, in some sense, anonymous, unknown, hidden away from the world and even themselves. Smith's genius, or at least one aspect of it from the public-relations perspective, is to approach this truth as an artist straight-on, making his music into a dark mirror--we only see, in the void of Jandek's anonymity, in the multiplicity of voices and sounds and moods that constantly throw our center off balance, the void of our own anonymity, our own multiplicity. I really believe that the powerful pull Jandek has on his listeners is precisely that he beguiles us ultimately with the mystery of ourselves. And this is not unique to Jandek at all--it's really just what any great art does.

We've never known any less, really, about Jandek than we have about Dylan, the Beatles, Lou Reed, Britney Spears, whoever. As I said in a previous post, I think Smith, when the time was right, actually needed to go public in order to keep the mystery going, to do what we finally didn't expect. I think Gavin's comments are quite prescient in the sense that one is left in the wake of this interview with more questions about David Keenan than Sterling Smith, who we still feel like we don't really know. And I think that's just the way it ought to be. You might say he "won".

--Spencer

[arkhonia]

> I'm so floored that Smith even agreed to this at all, to be honest

The point in my post being: what if he didn't? How would that change your
reading of it all?

> Is Keenan trying to seem cool? Hell yes. Again, this is the Wire.

For anyone unfamiliar with Keenan, this is an enlightening read:

http://www.15questions.net/interview/fifteen-questions-interview-david-keenan/page-1/

Do not be deceived by the page-1, it goes on and on and on...

Re: the Dylan quote

> I think he might be playing with us

This seems...uncharacteristic, let's say...Matthew/Spencer, you've probably
been listening to Jandek as long as I have (15 years), if not longer; you
therefore remember a time when the only information available was the work
itself. No gigs (the possibility was frankly inconceivable), no Jandek On
Corwood, no interviews - no consensus, and no *context*; and so, like me,
you probably 'read' the work for 'meaning. And maybe, like me, you took from
Jandek a sense of honesty, integrity...Jandek wants to be understood I
believe - or rather, doesn't want to be *misunderstood*.

So the idea that any Corwood representation might want to 'fuck with people'
doesn't really make sense. To me. On my 'reading'.

I concocted a rather oblique response to the original comment upon my post,
but abandoned it, waiting instead for another followup - but, where
restlessboy wrote

> Maybe it's evidence of Mr J having a sense of humour? Something that was
> also in evidence at the recent Oto shows.

I was at the OTO shows, and yeah there was humour - but a real good-natured
humour. This photo, for me, sums up the overall feel of that weekend

http://www.flickr.com/photos/truu/12608331335/in/set-72157641008785074/

There is no snark to Jandek - no deceit, nor intention to confuse - there is
no 'fucking with people'. If it *was* 'a joke' ('I booed Dylan'; 'Nah, I'm
fucking with ya' etc.), where is the humour - what is the joke? I'll say it
again: Corwood using this list as a mouthpiece is *unprecedented*. It's an
attempt to avoid being misunderstood.

There is also the fact that, as stated above, I heard this anecdote in 2009,
indirectly via Keenan, and then it appears in the interview; if Sterling
said it *once*, 5 years ago - in CONVERSATION, in private, and for whatever
reason - and didn't repeat it, but it still turns up in the Wire piece, and
is immediately retracted by Corwood, doesn't that suggest that the
'interview' is Keenan's construct?

So Spencer/Matthew, how would the Wire pieces read to you if you found that
they were conducted under the circumstances that I postulate? A hypothetical
I know, but this list used to thrive on hypotheticals (you've offered a fair
few of your own over the years as Daniel Marks).

After reading Part Two, it seems a little difficult to believe that this is
how Sterling Smith would choose to represent himself after 30-odd years of
avoiding journalists and their microphones.

But, again, what do I know?

Gavin



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[christoph...@gmail.com]

Agreed, generally, Gavin. I am especially disturbed by Keenan's remarks about Heather Leigh, and I'm surprised that this aspect of his journalism has not received more of a response here. Regardless of the slippery issue of the quoted comment about Bob Dylan, Keenan's overall integrity becomes suspect when one learns of his choice to falsify the career of Heather Leigh while neglecting to disclose his personal conflict of interest in doing so.

I would encourage you to write a letter to The Wire, if you have the time... I think that this factual error, in particular, is worth exposing to the magazine's general readership. Given that the statement about Heather Leigh as "Smith's longest term live and studio collaborator" is simply false, a gripe against it may hold more water than a more sweeping refutation of Keenan's journalistic integrity. Of course, once the falsehood about Leigh becomes apparent, and once one knows that she and Keenan are married, one would accordingly lose any faith in Keenan as a respectable journalist.

[arkhonia]

> I would encourage you to write a letter to The Wire, if you have the
> time...

I may already have done so without my knowledge, this is a sobering read:

http://idwalfisher.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/leeds-ashtray-navigations-ink-clouds.html


> Observant Wire readers may have noticed a ‘letter’ from my goodself
> gracing the pages of their latest end of year round up edition. Said
> missive was not submitted by me via email as stated but was actually copy
> and pasted from this very blog after a third party brought the article in
> question [from whence the ‘letter’ was lifted] to the attention of Wire
> editor Chris Bhon

Etc. The blog comment is also interesting...

But in all seriousness, yeah, maybe I should. They must, of course, be fully
aware of Keenan's conflicts of interest (how could they not be?), but
presumably continue to employ him because he is an
irritant/catalyst/whatever...and would maybe dismiss any response as being
from the 'fan mind' Keenan invents for Part One (the editorial for that
issue is especially smug). I'll see what I can come up with - unless anyone
else here fancies doing it instead...? Anyone...?

Gavin



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[paulw]

Have you guys come across this?

http://www.brownrainbow.com/jandek/
http://www.brownrainbow.com/jandek/jandek-artists.html

cause according to the list of live dates it does appear that Heather Leigh
has played with Jandek the most and the article mentions “studio” recordings
so maybe there are studio recordings that aren’t public/released that Keenan
is aware of? Personally that portion of the article didn’t seem a conflict
of interest to me, he focuses on other live recordings/collaborators and he
didn’t even mention himself as playing with Jandek and if that live list is
indeed correct he seems to have played with Jandek a fair number of times,
in fact if I’m counting correctly he’s the person that’s played with him the
second most. Not that I think it would have necessarily been wrong to
mention himself mind you. Also, I didn’t take Keenan’s comment about Jandek
fans as a snipe, seemed he was acknowledging that there are people out there
who are intrigued by his back story and have come up with theories about his
personal life and his records which is true, even though it’s mostly about
the music for me I’ve often wondered about these things myself, who is he
really and who are those other people on the records. I’d like to consider
myself a Jandek fan and first came across him on blogs and the Jandek
Facebook group, even Sterling admits he knows that there is talk of him on
the internet and such but says he doesn’t really care what people say about
him. Seems to me that if Keenan has played with him, was invited to do this
interview and knows all of this information about his music he must be a fan
too. I liked the articles and to be honest in many ways they just increased
the Jandek mystery for me and I’ve been listening to the CDs more than ever.
Anyways, just my 2 cents.



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[arkhonia]

> Have you guys come across this?

That's fascinating, and very useful, statistically as much as anything else.

> cause according to the list of live dates it does appear that Heather
> Leigh has played with Jandek the most and the article mentions “studio”
> recordings so maybe there are studio recordings that aren’t
> public/released that Keenan is aware of?

This could indeed be the case.

David Keenan is a very good writer - and a very clever man. His book
/England's Hidden Reverse/ is an essential history of British experimental
music through the 80s and 90s; his writing for The Wire is always readable,
and often interrogates certain aspects of the 'scene', attacking what he
perceives as a complacency; and his exclusion of himself from the Jandek
narrative could also be seen as admirably non self-serving.

However. No one here is, I imagine, party to Corwood's release schedule,
including unreleased studio recordings - so last year's /Where Do We Go From
Here/ album was a complete surprise, a studio recording with Richard Youngs
and Alex Neilson. How many more might there be to come? Who knows. Not
Keenan I imagine.

Statistically, Heather could be the more frequent live collaborator - but
her first performance with Jandek was Glasgow 2005, and her next
(discounting hypothetical studio albums) was 2009, the N Ireland tour, 5
performances in total (including the HMV instore in Belfast). But the issue
I have with his crediting Heather is the *exclusion* of Alex Neilson from
the narrative his Wire pieces creates. Heather's role isn't actually
relevant, but David includes it anyway; in discussing Jandek live, Alex and
Richard were the catalysts in Jandek playing live after 2004, and Alex's
gigs with Jandek (and Kan Mikami) in London and Glasgow last year continue
that collaborative role.

Neither of the above details are particularly pertinent to the Wire articles
- but the inclusion of one person (David's wife) precludes, somehow, the
exclusion of the other (a former collaborator of David's).

It's a subtle point, but David can be a subtle writer.

At The Sage gig in 2005 (/Newcastle Sunday/), Alex was onstage, and Heather
and David were selling records in the foyer...at the Glasgow 2005 gigs,
Heather played in half of one Sunday set, but Richard and Alex were the band
on the previous Friday...

> I’d like to consider myself a Jandek fan and first came across him on
> blogs and the Jandek Facebook group

This is interesting, I don't use facebook so have no knowledge of this -
maybe this is part of the 'countless websites' Keenan critiques...You know
what? Maybe The Wire interview is uncontestable - that factually (bar the
Dylan quote) it is all correct, and thus cannot be critiqued. And Keenan
himself might treat any critique as 'fan mind', and thus immediately
dismissable. But the brownrainbow stats scupper my draft letter to The Wire,
so that fucks that...

Why does any of this bother me so? Solely on the basis of what I've said in
this thread, even I'm not sure now. But if I wanted to introduce any curious
listener to Jandek, I would steer them well away from the Wire interviews,
back to the /Jandek On Corwood/ doc (it's a brilliant piece of filmmaking,
regardless of subject), and to anticipate /I Know You Well/, the forthcoming
documentary (trailer here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtVPTY13n1c).

As a Jandek listener for however many years, I'm just not sure that Keenan's
representation of Sterling Smith feels 'official' - Corwood's avoidance of
journalists, explanation and contextualisation for nearly 40 years cannot
surely have been to have the first *official* quote in print a reference to
dogs and cunt-licking...I believe that Keenan's Jandek is in his *own*
image, not Corwood's.

I'll step away from this all now.

Gavin



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[cconr...@gmail.com]

"As a Jandek listener for however many years, I'm just not sure that Keenan's
representation of Sterling Smith feels 'official' - Corwood's avoidance of
journalists, explanation and contextualisation for nearly 40 years cannot
surely have been to have the first *official* quote in print a reference to
dogs and cunt-licking...I believe that Keenan's Jandek is in his *own*
image, not Corwood's."

I don't think that Smith gives a fuck about how the first *official* quote about him is about. If you look at the quote in question, what is it? It is basically the underlying structure of every Jandek album ever--

It's beautiful in a raw and ugly way.

I knew before reading this interview that it wouldn't answer any of my questions and would probably not be what I was expecting at all.

I was right.

Maybe it's not so much that this is Jandek in Keenan's eyes, but rather that Smith does not fit the image that a lot of his fans have envisioned him to embody.

As in anything that gets introduced into the Jandek story, the more information that is presented, the muddier the water gets. This is no exception.

[Spencer Graham]

I agree with these comments, especially this one: "Maybe it's not so much that this is Jandek in Keenan's eyes, but rather that Smith does not fit the image that a lot of his fans have envisioned him to embody."

Yes yes yes. It would be easy to divert our anger at Sterling Smith for ruining our fun by blaming Keenan for presenting a "false Jandek". That way the "real" Jandek could still out there somewhere, wandering bigfoot-like, but he was never out there. He was only ever in our imaginations.

How much of it is Keenan, and how much of it Smith? Who knows, and would it be too flip to say who cares? Those of us who've been involved with the whole Jandek thing for the long term have gotten used to shrugging and saying, "the plot thickens." It is quite arguable that doing this interview, with this dude, was a bad move. Part of me definitely thinks that, but another part of me loves the Sterling Smith Keenan portrays, much more than any vision I ever invented of him on my own. I guess I can see it from both sides.

Incidentally, I remember one guy on this list thought it was a bad move for Jandek to start playing in standard tuning back in the 80's. He said "You Walk Alone", which I know is the favorite album of many fans, was corny, that it sounded like Jandek trying to play Vegas!