Re: Full vs Platform

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Reza Rahman

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Apr 3, 2023, 8:44:35 AM4/3/23
to Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Jakarta EE community discussions

Also sharing the conversation with the broader community on the mailing lists.

On 4/3/2023 8:27 AM, reza_...@lycos.com wrote:
Thanks Ondro for sharing the conversation with the broader community. Hopefully we will get a bit more independent user feedback on the subtle, but real problem some of us have observed for some time now.

If this remains an unresolved discussion on Friday, I’ll bring it up to the platform. I believe it is legitimate discussion there too.
 

From: starter-dev <starter-d...@eclipse.org> on behalf of Ondro Mihályi <mih...@omnifish.ee>
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 6:42 AM
To: starter developer discussions <start...@eclipse.org>
Subject: Re: [starter-dev] Full vs Platform
 
Here's another response on Twitter, which suggests using words like "full" or "complete", rather than just Platform: https://twitter.com/kjjaeger/status/1642759395925688324

On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 12:54 AM reza_...@lycos.com <reza_...@lycos.com> wrote:
I am not so sure. I don’t think things are so draconian that we couldn’t add a simple parenthetical term that may in practically aid usability. I think the least we can do is hear people out.
 

From: starter-dev <starter-d...@eclipse.org> on behalf of Ivar Grimstad via starter-dev <start...@eclipse.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2023 6:37 PM
To: starter developer discussions <start...@eclipse.org>
Cc: Ivar Grimstad <ivar.g...@eclipse-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [starter-dev] Full vs Platform
 
To be honest, I don't see why this has to be debated any longer.
The Platform Project is pretty clear on the terminology. It's not up to this project to change that.

Ivar

On Sun, Apr 2, 2023, 18:22 reza_...@lycos.com <reza_...@lycos.com> wrote:
Please consider weighing in on this matter, especially as a committer. I think by this Friday should be sufficient time to resolve this matter in one direction or the other.
 

From: starter-dev <starter-d...@eclipse.org> on behalf of Ondro Mihályi <mih...@omnifish.ee>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2023 5:15 PM
To: starter developer discussions <start...@eclipse.org>
Subject: Re: [starter-dev] Full vs Platform
 
I'm strongly in favor of keeping the word "full" in the option. Probably something like Platform (full), or full Platform, with "full" all in lower case, not "Full".

My reasoning:

Although the name of the full specification is just Jakarta EE Platform, there are several mentions of the word "full" in the Platform spec. Including "full platform" in the section 2.2 Profiles: https://jakarta.ee/specifications/platform/10/jakarta-platform-spec-10.0.html#profiles, which specifically mentions "Jakarta EE platform” umbrella as something that unites all profiles or "the full platform". Here a screenshot, my email continues below:

image.png

So, I would say that Platform is generally used for the umbrella over all profiles and full platform, while "full platform" means the whole Jakarta EE Platform. I believe that's how most other people understand it and use the terms. Also a lot of vendors use "Full" to refer to the Jakarta EE Platform, and Web to refer to the Web Profile. Examples:
Ondro

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 5:23 PM Emily Jiang via starter-dev <start...@eclipse.org> wrote:
Hi Reza,

I had the same comment regarding the `full` instead of `platform`. We had to correct people saying `full` in the past and now I think the correct word `platform` is used across the board. I will vote for `Platfiorm` not saying anything such as `Full` to be consistent with the specification release.

Thanks
Emily


On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:42 PM reza_...@lycos.com <reza_...@lycos.com> wrote:
Can folks (especially committers and key stakeholders) kindly weigh in on this one: https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/starter/issues/238?

To be honest, I think this is a usability hiccup we basically have with Jakarta EE. We have the notion of profiles, but there isn’t actually a “Full Profile”. It’s just the “Platform”. In my experience, this invariably confuses newcomers.

I tried to reconcile this by simply saying “Full Platform” in the UI. I think either “(Full) Platform” or “Platform (Full)” does the trick too.

What do others think? To be clear, I am not categorically opposed to just saying “Platform”. I don’t think it’s the best but it is workable. It’s certainly what the actual specification says.

P.S.: I opposed this nomenclature almost ten years ago. Bill and Linda had many opinions I never fully agreed with including keeping EJB going much past its expiration date. To me this is yet another one of the Bill/Linda legacies.


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Ondro Mihályi

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Apr 3, 2023, 8:26:41 PM4/3/23
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Another response on Twitter, more towards using Jakarta EE Platform rather than Full Platform: 

Ondro

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Ondro Mihályi

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Apr 3, 2023, 8:37:21 PM4/3/23
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Maybe even a better solution is to rethink the whole Platform/Profile option in the Starter. Now, the option’s title is “Jakarta EE Profile”, but (full) Jakarta EE Platform is not a profile itself:


What about changing it to:

Jakarta EE API collection:

- Jakarta EE Platform
- Web Profile
- Core Profile

What do you think?

Ondro
Screenshot 2023-04-04 at 02.29.14.png

Alasdair Nottingham

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Apr 3, 2023, 9:47:40 PM4/3/23
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In Open Liberty doc we have been using Jakarta EE Platform to refer to everything so I’d vote for that option over full profile. 

Alasdair

Alasdair Nottingham

On Apr 3, 2023, at 8:26 PM, Ondro Mihályi <mih...@omnifish.ee> wrote:



Vedran Smid

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Apr 4, 2023, 1:50:36 AM4/4/23
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Hi,

Maybe just remove 'profile' from the title:

Jakarta EE
- Platform
- Web Profile
- Core Profile

L.walid (PowerM)

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Apr 4, 2023, 1:50:48 AM4/4/23
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Agree with removing the profile 
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Josh Juneau

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Apr 4, 2023, 7:37:25 AM4/4/23
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Thanks for the great discussion.  I am indifferent on this matter.  If we elect to remove "Full" from the name, then I like:

Jakarta EE:
Platform
Web Profile
Core Profile

I do not think it should cause much confusion to have "Platform (full)".

I appreciate your time.




On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:07 AM mengqy <men...@primeton.com> wrote:

I preferred terms as it is on this page Jakarta EE Specifications | The Eclipse Foundation, and WG official published content should be aligned with this, with no "Full" in the term.


I can relate that people who prefer adding "Full" to the Platform, expecting the term to have some self-explaining function to newcomers, but I am afraid it is not possible and not necessary for these reasons:


1\ To the newcomers to java, not only does Platform need to be explained but also Web and Core need it too, the total solution to solve this may be adding "subset" to Web and Core in correspond with "Full" in Platform, obviously no need to do this.


2\ To the ones who already know Java, they already understand the meaning from java docs as "Platform" without "Full"(as mentioned here Java Platform, Enterprise Edition 8 SDK - Release Notes (oracle.com)), if we want to inherit the java users to Jakarta, maybe we should be more aligned with the java term without changing it if is not necessary.


3\ Officially adding Full to the term whether in front of Platform or after with a (full) will add trouble in writing and talking about it, let us be more simplified not complicated. 


In fact, furthermore, I have a suggestion new here maybe not be relevant to the current topic which is: 


4\ One Jakarta EE to the world.


To simplify and focus our promotion resource on one thing and get the best from it, maybe we do not need to highlight too much the Web and the Core on the release page of the official site, etc., we say to the world Jakarta EE is the cloud-native Java specification, people just need to know one thing is that Jakarta EE is both for web and microservice, but no need to know the detail in profiles in the first time, this will simplify the understanding of Jakarta EE and be good to promote it in the long run.


Web and Core profiles can still have their development plan, certification plan, etc. But no need to show all the content and description in the official content. Vendors or people who want to know the detail, or to certificate, can contact us for more information. So we can focus all of our resources to build only one brand, developers can also talk about one thing and not need to discuss the difference between like this.


 






Eric (QingYu Meng)   Marketing Director
--------------
Primeton Software, Inc. (Stock Code: 688118)
Specialize in - Digital Middle Platform - Digital Transformation Accelerating
 
 
 
------------------ Original ------------------
From:  "L.walid (PowerM)"<l.w...@powerm.ma>;
Date:  Tue, Apr 4, 2023 12:52 PM
To:  "Jakarta EE community discussions"<jakarta.ee...@eclipse.org>;
Cc:  "Jakarta EE Ambassadors"<jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>; "starter developer discussions"<start...@eclipse.org>;
Subject:  Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Full vs Platform
 

wang...@asiainfo.com

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Apr 4, 2023, 8:27:25 AM4/4/23
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Hi All
Agree with removing the profile 

 
Date: 2023-04-04 12:52
Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Full vs Platform
IMG_8845(04-04-14-05-11).jpg

mengqy

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Apr 4, 2023, 8:27:42 AM4/4/23
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I preferred terms as it is on this page Jakarta EE Specifications | The Eclipse Foundation, and WG official published content should be aligned with this, with no "Full" in the term.


I can relate that people who prefer adding "Full" to the Platform, expecting the term to have some self-explaining function to newcomers, but I am afraid it is not possible and not necessary for these reasons:


1\ To the newcomers to java, not only does Platform need to be explained but also Web and Core need it too, the total solution to solve this may be adding "subset" to Web and Core in correspond with "Full" in Platform, obviously no need to do this.


2\ To the ones who already know Java, they already understand the meaning from java docs as "Platform" without "Full"(as mentioned here Java Platform, Enterprise Edition 8 SDK - Release Notes (oracle.com)), if we want to inherit the java users to Jakarta, maybe we should be more aligned with the java term without changing it if is not necessary.


3\ Officially adding Full to the term whether in front of Platform or after with a (full) will add trouble in writing and talking about it, let us be more simplified not complicated. 


In fact, furthermore, I have a suggestion new here maybe not be relevant to the current topic which is: 


4\ One Jakarta EE to the world.


To simplify and focus our promotion resource on one thing and get the best from it, maybe we do not need to highlight too much the Web and the Core on the release page of the official site, etc., we say to the world Jakarta EE is the cloud-native Java specification, people just need to know one thing is that Jakarta EE is both for web and microservice, but no need to know the detail in profiles in the first time, this will simplify the understanding of Jakarta EE and be good to promote it in the long run.


Web and Core profiles can still have their development plan, certification plan, etc. But no need to show all the content and description in the official content. Vendors or people who want to know the detail, or to certificate, can contact us for more information. So we can focus all of our resources to build only one brand, developers can also talk about one thing and not need to discuss the difference between like this.


 






Eric (QingYu Meng)   Marketing Director
--------------
Primeton Software, Inc. (Stock Code: 688118)
Specialize in - Digital Middle Platform - Digital Transformation Accelerating
 
 
 
------------------ Original ------------------
From:  "L.walid (PowerM)"<l.w...@powerm.ma>;
Date:  Tue, Apr 4, 2023 12:52 PM
To:  "Jakarta EE community discussions"<jakarta.ee...@eclipse.org>;
Cc:  "Jakarta EE Ambassadors"<jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>; "starter developer discussions"<start...@eclipse.org>;
Subject:  Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Full vs Platform
 

027DF613@150D932E.B6E82B6400000000.jpg

Emily Jiang

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Apr 4, 2023, 10:04:23 AM4/4/23
to Josh Juneau, Jakarta EE community discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, starter developer discussions

+1 on Eric’s comments! 

Are we all good with:

Jakarta EE:
Platform
Web Profile
Core Profile

If you still disagree, shout now.

Thanks,
Emily 

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 Apr 2023, at 07:37, Josh Juneau <june...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Reza Rahman

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Apr 4, 2023, 10:22:31 AM4/4/23
to starter developer discussions, Jakarta EE community discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Emily Jiang, Josh Juneau
I believe there is still wide open room for discussion at least until Friday. After that, it looks like this may be a very legitimate discussion to bring up to the Platform development alias.

As to the label for this field both for the UI and the Archetype, we do need one aside from simply “Jakarta EE”. Aside from the fact that a  distinct field name is practically required, I believe it definitely adds even more ambiguity if we just say “Jakarta EE”. The implication may come across as there are different “Jakarta EEs” as opposed to simply profiles under an umbrella platform. This is very far from simple and we should ensure there is broad consensus. That takes adequate time, flexibility, structure, care and patience.

As to the label, I believe Ondro might be on the right track. “Collection of APIs” might be a bit too much of a mouthful for a UI, but maybe “Jakarta EE API” is actually right for what we are looking for, aside from the “Full” vs “Platform” decision. I think this too is something we should seek discussion in the Platform mailing list for.


From: 'Emily Jiang' via Jakarta EE Ambassadors <jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2023 10:04 AM
To: Josh Juneau <june...@gmail.com>
Cc: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee...@eclipse.org>; Jakarta EE Ambassadors <jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>; starter developer discussions <start...@eclipse.org>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-ambassadors] Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Full vs Platform
 

Lukas Jungmann

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Apr 4, 2023, 10:22:52 AM4/4/23
to Jakarta EE community discussions, Josh Juneau, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, starter developer discussions
On 04.04.2023 13:37, Josh Juneau wrote:
> I do not think it should cause much confusion to have "Platform (full)".


Is "Platform (full)" there to refer to the Platform with all optional
parts OR to the Platform without optional parts?


thanks,
--lukas


>
> I appreciate your time.
>
> Josh Juneau
> june...@gmail.com <mailto:june...@gmail.com>
> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW2GSys9Gw$>
> Apress Author
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.apress.com/us/search?query=juneau__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW2_HkSBCA$>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:07 AM mengqy <men...@primeton.com
> <mailto:men...@primeton.com>> wrote:
>
> I preferred terms as it is on this page Jakarta EE Specifications |
> The Eclipse Foundation
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jakarta.ee/specifications/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW2WGoU6rw$>, and WG official published content should be aligned with this, with no "Full" in the term.
>
>
> I can relate that people who prefer adding "Full" to the Platform,
> expecting the term to have some self-explaining function to
> newcomers, but I am afraid it is not possible and not necessary for
> these reasons:
>
>
> 1\ To the newcomers to java, not only does Platform need to be
> explained but also Web and Core need it too, the total solution to
> solve this may be adding "subset" to Web and Core in correspond with
> "Full" in Platform, obviously no need to do this.
>
>
> 2\ To the ones who already know Java, they already understand the
> meaning from java docs as "Platform" without "Full"(as mentioned
> here Java Platform, Enterprise Edition 8 SDK - Release Notes
> (oracle.com)
> <https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javaee/javaee8-sdk-release-notes.html>), if we want to inherit the java users to Jakarta, maybe we should be more aligned with the java term without changing it if is not necessary.
>
>
> 3\ Officially adding Full to the term whether in front of Platform
> or after with a (full) will add trouble in writing and talking about
> it, let us be more simplified not complicated.
>
>
> In fact, furthermore, I have a suggestion new here maybe not be
> relevant to the current topic which is:
>
>
> 4\ One Jakarta EE to the world.
>
>
> To simplify and focus our promotion resource on one thing and get
> the best from it, maybe we do not need to highlight too much the Web
> and the Core on the release page of the official site, etc., we say
> to the world Jakarta EE is the cloud-native Java specification,
> people just need to know one thing is that Jakarta EE is both for
> web and microservice, but no need to know the detail in profiles in
> the first time, this will simplify the understanding of Jakarta EE
> and be good to promote it in the long run.
>
>
> Web and Core profiles can still have their development plan,
> certification plan, etc. But no need to show all the content and
> description in the official content. Vendors or people who want to
> know the detail, or to certificate, can contact us for more
> information. So we can focus all of our resources to build only one
> brand, developers can also talk about one thing and not need to
> discuss the difference between like this.
>
>
>
> __
>
>
>
>
> *Eric (QingYu Meng)
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/laliwa__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW1KgMS6QQ$>* Marketing Director
> --------------
> Primeton Software, Inc. (Stock Code: 688118)
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.primeton.com/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW14fc0SbQ$>
> Specialize in - Digital Middle Platform - Digital Transformation
> Accelerating
> __
> __
> ------------------ Original ------------------
> *From: * "L.walid (PowerM)"<l.w...@powerm.ma
> <mailto:l.w...@powerm.ma>>;
> *Date: * Tue, Apr 4, 2023 12:52 PM
> *To: * "Jakarta EE community
> discussions"<jakarta.ee...@eclipse.org
> <mailto:jakarta.ee...@eclipse.org>>;
> *Cc: * "Jakarta EE
> Ambassadors"<jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>>; "starter developer
> discussions"<start...@eclipse.org <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>>;
> *Subject: * Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Full vs Platform
> Agree with removing the profile
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:44 AM Vedran Smid <vedra...@gmail.com
> <mailto:vedra...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Maybe just remove 'profile' from the title:
>
> *Jakarta EE
> *
> *- Platform*
> *- Web Profile*
> *- Core Profile*
>
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 at 02:37, Ondro Mihályi <mih...@omnifish.ee
> <mailto:mih...@omnifish.ee>> wrote:
>
> Maybe even a better solution is to rethink the whole
> Platform/Profile option in the Starter. Now, the option’s
> title is “Jakarta EE Profile”, but (full) Jakarta EE
> Platform is not a profile itself:
>
>
> What about changing it to:
>
> *Jakarta EE API collection:*
> *
> *
> *- Jakarta EE Platform*
> *- Web Profile*
> *- Core Profile*
>
> What do you think?
>
> Ondro
>
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 at 02:26, Ondro Mihályi
> <mih...@omnifish.ee <mailto:mih...@omnifish.ee>> wrote:
>
> Another response on Twitter, more towards using Jakarta
> EE Platform rather than Full Platform:
> https://twitter.com/mnriem/status/1642995139835756544?s=46&t=spVUwnRyj0V3iL-9mSYYCw <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/mnriem/status/1642995139835756544?s=46&t=spVUwnRyj0V3iL-9mSYYCw__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW0WDAt7LQ$>
>
> Ondro
>
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 at 14:44, Reza Rahman
> <reza_...@lycos.com <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Also sharing the conversation with the broader
> community on the mailing lists.
>
> On 4/3/2023 8:27 AM, reza_...@lycos.com
> <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com> wrote:
>> Thanks Ondro for sharing the conversation with the
>> broader community. Hopefully we will get a bit
>> more independent user feedback on the subtle, but
>> real problem some of us have observed for some
>> time now.
>>
>> If this remains an unresolved discussion on
>> Friday, I’ll bring it up to the platform. I
>> believe it is legitimate discussion there too.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* starter-dev
>> <starter-d...@eclipse.org>
>> <mailto:starter-d...@eclipse.org> on behalf
>> of Ondro Mihályi <mih...@omnifish.ee>
>> <mailto:mih...@omnifish.ee>
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 6:42 AM
>> *To:* starter developer discussions
>> <start...@eclipse.org>
>> <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [starter-dev] Full vs Platform
>> Here's another response on Twitter, which suggests
>> using words like "full" or "complete", rather than
>> just Platform:
>> https://twitter.com/kjjaeger/status/1642759395925688324 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/kjjaeger/status/1642759395925688324__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW0HWY1a8Q$>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 12:54 AM
>> reza_...@lycos.com
>> <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com>
>> <reza_...@lycos.com
>> <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I am not so sure. I don’t think things are so
>> draconian that we couldn’t add a simple
>> parenthetical term that may in practically aid
>> usability. I think the least we can do is hear
>> people out.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* starter-dev
>> <starter-d...@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:starter-d...@eclipse.org>> on
>> behalf of Ivar Grimstad via starter-dev
>> <start...@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 2, 2023 6:37 PM
>> *To:* starter developer discussions
>> <start...@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>>
>> *Cc:* Ivar Grimstad
>> <ivar.g...@eclipse-foundation.org
>> <mailto:ivar.g...@eclipse-foundation.org>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [starter-dev] Full vs Platform
>> To be honest, I don't see why this has to be
>> debated any longer.
>> The Platform Project is pretty clear on the
>> terminology. It's not up to this project to
>> change that.
>>
>> Ivar
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2023, 18:22
>> reza_...@lycos.com
>> <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com>
>> <reza_...@lycos.com
>> <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Please consider weighing in on this
>> matter, especially as a committer. I think
>> by this Friday should be sufficient time
>> to resolve this matter in one direction or
>> the other.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* starter-dev
>> <starter-d...@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:starter-d...@eclipse.org>>
>> on behalf of Ondro Mihályi
>> <mih...@omnifish.ee
>> <mailto:mih...@omnifish.ee>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 31, 2023 5:15 PM
>> *To:* starter developer discussions
>> <start...@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [starter-dev] Full vs Platform
>> I'm strongly in favor of keeping the word
>> "full" in the option. Probably something
>> like Platform (full), or full Platform,
>> with "full" all in lower case, not "Full".
>>
>> My reasoning:
>>
>> Although the name of the full
>> specification is just Jakarta EE Platform,
>> there are several mentions of the word
>> "full" in the Platform spec. Including
>> "full platform" in the section 2.2
>> Profiles:
>> https://jakarta.ee/specifications/platform/10/jakarta-platform-spec-10.0.html#profiles <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jakarta.ee/specifications/platform/10/jakarta-platform-spec-10.0.html*profiles__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW022CDh-w$>, which specifically mentions "Jakarta EE platform” umbrella as something that unites all profiles or "the full platform". Here a screenshot, my email continues below:
>>
>>
>>
>> So, I would say that *Platform* is
>> generally used for the *umbrella* over all
>> profiles and full platform, while "*full
>> platform*" means the *whole Jakarta EE
>> Platform*. I believe that's how most other
>> people understand it and use the terms.
>> Also a lot of vendors use "Full" to refer
>> to the Jakarta EE Platform, and Web to
>> refer to the Web Profile. Examples:
>>
>> * Payara Platform Community provides 2
>> distributions: Full and Web Profile,
>> Payara Embedded provides a "Full
>> Platform Implementation":
>> https://www.payara.fish/downloads/payara-platform-community-edition/ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.payara.fish/downloads/payara-platform-community-edition/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW18oy6cjA$>
>> * Glass Embedded uses the word "all",
>> not "full", but mentions "Jakarta EE
>> Full Profile". This is probably wrong,
>> but shows how people often use the
>> word "full":
>> https://glassfish.org/download
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://glassfish.org/download__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW3GrLz-Tg$>
>> * Wildfly provides a single downloadable
>> for both Platform and Web Profile, but
>> inside the installation you can choose
>> the standalone-full.xml configuration
>> to use all features from Jakarta EE
>> Platform, as explained here:
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32129651/how-to-know-if-wildfly-is-running-with-web-profile-or-full-profile <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32129651/how-to-know-if-wildfly-is-running-with-web-profile-or-full-profile__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW1U-gB08A$>
>>
>> /Ondro/
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 5:23 PM Emily
>> Jiang via starter-dev
>> <start...@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Reza,
>>
>> I had the same comment regarding the
>> `full` instead of `platform`. We had
>> to correct people saying `full` in the
>> past and now I think the correct word
>> `platform` is used across the board. I
>> will vote for `Platfiorm` not saying
>> anything such as `Full` to be
>> consistent with the specification release.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Emily
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:42 PM
>> reza_...@lycos.com
>> <mailto:reza_rahman@lycoscom>
>> <reza_...@lycos.com
>> <mailto:reza_...@lycos.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Can folks (especially committers
>> and key stakeholders) kindly weigh
>> in on this one:
>> https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/starter/issues/238 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/starter/issues/238__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW0RhY_P5w$>?
>> <mailto:start...@eclipse.org>
>> To unsubscribe from this list,
>> visit
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/starter-dev <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/starter-dev__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!OANqmCUlQVmtfxF_Ze8sPk2cc-nmCMn7LvrYzvyqb5izsbzmcwRlJ5ubHg2VPwlMlqae2zMmnNvwyW1o_0MTQQ$>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> Emily
>>
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>>
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Arjan Tijms

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Apr 4, 2023, 4:42:43 PM4/4/23
to Jakarta EE community discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, starter developer discussions
Hi,

There is something to say about not mentioning the web profile so much. If I remember the statistics correctly and at least for the servers I've been involved with, the demand for the web profile for a server that is also available in the full profile is extremely low to even zero. Would love to be proven wrong though.

IMHO, web profile is only really interesting for vendors, so that they don't have to implement remote enterprise beans, container managed persistence (in earlier days) and the application client container. At the moment and for a long time there's only been TomEE in this category (I hope at one day be able to certify Piranha Cloud to join TomEE).

Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms



Alasdair Nottingham

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Apr 4, 2023, 4:54:20 PM4/4/23
to Jakarta EE community discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, starter developer discussions
Looking at the Open Liberty usage on Maven Central Statistics for our Web Profile vs Platform downloads does not support your assertion that interest is low to zero in Web Profile.


Alasdair

Emily Jiang

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Apr 4, 2023, 5:21:02 PM4/4/23
to Alasdair Nottingham, Jakarta EE community discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, starter developer discussions
Thanks Arjan for the stats! Good to know!
Emily 

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 Apr 2023, at 16:54, Alasdair Nottingham <alasdair....@gmail.com> wrote:

Looking at the Open Liberty usage on Maven Central Statistics for our Web Profile vs Platform downloads does not support your assertion that interest is low to zero in Web Profile.


Alasdair

On Apr 4, 2023, at 4:42 PM, Arjan Tijms <arjan...@omnifish.ee> wrote:

IMHO, web profile is only really interesting for vendors, so that they don't have to implement remote enterprise beans, container managed persistence (in earlier days) and the application client container. At the moment and for a long time there's only been TomEE in this category (I hope at one day be able to certify Piranha Cloud to join TomEE).


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Reza Rahman

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Apr 5, 2023, 8:28:35 AM4/5/23
to starter developer discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Jakarta EE community discussions
Response in-line for context. Good discussion points, certainly.

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 at 11:07, mengqy <men...@primeton.com> wrote:

In fact, furthermore, I have a suggestion new here maybe not be relevant to the current topic which is: 


4\ One Jakarta EE to the world.


To simplify and focus our promotion resource on one thing and get the best from it, maybe we do not need to highlight too much the Web and the Core on the release page of the official site, etc., we say to the world Jakarta EE is the cloud-native Java specification, people just need to know one thing is that Jakarta EE is both for web and microservice, but no need to know the detail in profiles in the first time, this will simplify the understanding of Jakarta EE and be good to promote it in the long run.


Web and Core profiles can still have their development plan, certification plan, etc. But no need to show all the content and description in the official content. Vendors or people who want to know the detail, or to certificate, can contact us for more information. So we can focus all of our resources to build only one brand, developers can also talk about one thing and not need to discuss the difference between like this.

RR: I think this again comes down to how one chooses to see the somewhat ambiguous concept of the "Platform" and how it relates to profiles. In my view, we should avoid giving what is effectively the "Full Profile" (the term used by Red Hat) significant special status. This may prove to be very important as things like the Core Profile potentially make profiles even more relevant than in the past. That's the thought behind how things are outlined in the UI and Archetype now.

That said, this is also perhaps something that we should not make a firm decision in the starter project but bring it to to the Platform mailing list for consensus and guidance for us to implement.

Arjan Tijms

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Apr 5, 2023, 9:25:24 AM4/5/23
to Jakarta EE community discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, starter developer discussions
Hi,

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 at 22:54, Alasdair Nottingham <alasdair....@gmail.com> wrote:
Looking at the Open Liberty usage on Maven Central Statistics for our Web Profile vs Platform downloads does not support your assertion that interest is low to zero in Web Profile.

Interesting, and thanks for sharing that!

I've seen both the download stats being low on my side, but also the opposite situation; at consultancy projects every place always downloaded / provided the full version of WildFly, GlassFish, Open Liberty, etc. But it's good to hear that my observations are just one data point.

Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms

 


Alasdair

On Apr 4, 2023, at 4:42 PM, Arjan Tijms <arjan...@omnifish.ee> wrote:

IMHO, web profile is only really interesting for vendors, so that they don't have to implement remote enterprise beans, container managed persistence (in earlier days) and the application client container. At the moment and for a long time there's only been TomEE in this category (I hope at one day be able to certify Piranha Cloud to join TomEE).


Ondro Mihályi

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Apr 5, 2023, 12:25:49 PM4/5/23
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If we go this way and want to make profiles and the Platform (a.k.a. "Full" profile) stand on the same line, then I would strongly request from the Platform project to introduce a naming strategy that would reflect that. Because if we have "Platform", "Web Profile" and "Core Profile", their names are clearly not giving the message that they are equally endorsed.

To me, with this naming, "Platform" will always stand out, while profiles would be curated subsets of the Platform. That's why many people use the term "Full" profile, so that we can refer to "Full Profile", "Web Profile", and "Core Profile, in a unified way. But I hear from the Jakarta Platform spec team that this isn't what they want.

I think the Jakarta Platform team should clarify whether we want to treat the Platform spec and profiles equally (and change the naming to reflect that), or we want to prefer the Platform spec over profiles, which is implied by the current naming. Otherwise we'll continue having confusion about this forever.

Ondro

Edwin Derks

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Apr 6, 2023, 3:07:50 AM4/6/23
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Hi all,

Please let me share my thoughts also in the hopes it helps in getting this discussion solved.

I think the concept of a Profile is a clearly defined concept within Jakarta EE. A Profile in general represents/bundles a selection of Specifications that vendors can use to scope and verify their implementation with. We currently have three official, well-defined Profiles in Jakarta EE:
- Full Profile
- Web Profile
- Core Profile
Let's keep this terminology and use it appropriately in the right context. So in the Starter, when asked which Profile is going to be used, simply use these names. No addition of anything that says Platform or whatever, this is a term for a different context. If it's possibly not clear for people what Profiles are as a concept, just add a textual explanation.

Over the past years, lingo using the word Platform has come up and as far as I understand it, is being used as a synonym for the Full Profile. But is it? Is Web Profile not (partially) "the" or "a" Platform? For me, it feels that Jakarta EE is a brand and the technology it represents IS A Platform. Regardless of the Profile being discussed. Because whatever Profile a vendor's implementation is built with, as a developer, you can build applications ON this implementation as a Platform. Again, this is my own perception.

To conclude, I think that we need to use the Profiles in the right context and agree on what the term Platform means for all parties involved to understand. Hope this helps.

Edwin

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Ondro Mihályi

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Apr 6, 2023, 4:48:18 AM4/6/23
to Edwin Derks, Ondro Mihályi, starter developer discussions, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Jakarta EE community discussions
I completely agree with you, Edwin. But the problem seems to be that the Jakarta Platform team has decided to use the term Platform to mean what many people refer to as "Full" profile. Or maybe this was decided on a higher level, at some committee, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure there was no open discussion, at least not sufficiently promoted to get a wide range of opinions.

If you look at the Jakarta (Full) Platform specification text,it uses the term profile only in relation to Web and Core profiles. If the spec refers to what you call a "Full" profile", it always uses the words Platform or Jakarta Platform.

I agree this is confusing and I would prefer to use the term Jakarta Platform to mean all projects in the Jakarta top level project (https://github.com/jakartaee) and the terms Full, Web and Core profiles for specific profiles defined by the Jakarta Platform. The main Jakarta specification could still use its name Jakarta Platform, but should define the Full profile inside and refer to it instead of "Jakarta Platform" if it wants to refer to a collection of APIs and not the Jakarta Platform top-level project (all specifications including those outside of any profile, such as JNoSQL and MVC).

However, I see that it's hard to redefine this now because the current terminology is already used in the specifications and in a lot of marketing content.

Ondro

št 6. 4. 2023 o 9:07 Edwin Derks <eder...@gmail.com> napísal(a):

Reza Rahman

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Apr 25, 2023, 5:42:08 PM4/25/23
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Closing the loop on this matter. Please look here for the resolution (not ideal in my opinion but an improvement over current state): https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/starter/issues/238#issuecomment-1522200139.