Jakarta EE 9/10 & Future

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Ryan Cuprak

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Feb 18, 2022, 1:32:02 PM2/18/22
to Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Good Afternoon,
 
 Discussion on this list has been very quiet the last couple of months. I am curious as to people’s thoughts as to how things are going with Jakarta EE? 

 So if you wouldn’t mind replying: 
  1. Have you look investigated and/or tried Jakarta EE 9 yet? 
  2. Are you tracking the new features coming in Jakarta EE 10?
  3. Are you using Jakarta EE technologies or have you moved onto some other technology stack?

 This is a large group and often times the same people always respond, so hit reply!

 Everyone initially joined the Jakarta EE Ambassadors because they were passionate about Java EE and wanted to see it succeed. What do you think? 

Regards,
-Ryan Cuprak

Josh Juneau

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Feb 22, 2022, 8:01:25 AM2/22/22
to Ryan Cuprak, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Ryan,

Hope you are doing well.  It has been exciting to see Jakarta EE moving forward towards the release of Jakarta EE 10.

I have tried Jakarta EE 9 for a few example projects, but not for production use.  I am tracking the new features for Jakarta EE 10, and it seems that those included in this upcoming release are a good fit.  Although I do not have much time nowadays to work with the Ambassadors, I do still use Jakarta EE and I'm very excited about the future of the platform.

Thanks and best regards.


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Ondro Mihályi

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Feb 22, 2022, 9:04:39 AM2/22/22
to Josh Juneau, Ryan Cuprak, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Josh,

Thanks for your feedback. Do you think that once Jakarta EE 10, some of your projects would be a good fit to upgrade to it? or do you already plan upgrading to Jakarta EE 10 for some production projects?

I expect there will be a few EE 10 implementations ready for production use very soon after EE 10 is released, including Payara 6.

I'm working for Payara so I could only summarize what I see with our customers and community.  Most of our customers value stability, so they didn't have any need to upgrade to EE 9 and I think they will take their time until they upgrade to Payara 6 and EE 10. Hopefully we'll see some upgrades to EE 10 and Payara 6 in the community soon.

Ondro

ut 22. 2. 2022 o 14:01 Josh Juneau <june...@gmail.com> napísal(a):

Arjan Tijms

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Feb 22, 2022, 9:15:13 AM2/22/22
to Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi,

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 3:04:39 PM UTC+1 Ondro Mihalyi wrote:
Most of our customers value stability, so they didn't have any need to upgrade to EE 9

That was to be expected and intended. Jakarta EE 9 was specifically intended as a vehicle for tool (library, etc) vendors to use a base for testing their migrated products on, not so much for application developers to migrate to en masse. Of course some companies may choose to prepare their applications to run on the jakarta.* namespace in advance using Jakarta EE 9, but companies like Red Hat have explicitly skipped Jakarta EE 9 for a final release (it's available from them in non-final releases though, just like Payara).

Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms

Ryan Cuprak

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Feb 22, 2022, 6:05:50 PM2/22/22
to Arjan Tijms, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Arjan,
 
 I hadn’t caught that, so Red Hat and Payara aren’t releasing a “final” Jakarta EE 9 build? Also, Open Liberty is the only one with EE 9 and MicroProfile?

Regards,
-Ryan

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Arjan Tijms

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Feb 22, 2022, 6:41:50 PM2/22/22
to Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi,

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 12:05:50 AM UTC+1 rcuprak wrote:
 I hadn’t caught that, so Red Hat and Payara aren’t releasing a “final” Jakarta EE 9 build?

That's what they said. Payara 6 alpha IS EE 9 certified, but the final release of Payara 6 (according to their roadmap) will go straight to Jakarta EE 10 around May this year. See https://blog.payara.fish/roadmap-update-january-2022-.

Red Hat said something similar, namely that Jakarta EE 9 has no added value, only cost. Although that statement may be the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing, as the "only cost for migration" was pretty much the reason why Red Hat among others proposed EE 9 to begin with. See https://www.wildfly.org/news/2021/09/27/WildFly-Changes/

Quarkus only added jakarta.* support to their roadmap like yesterday, with no target date yet. See https://github.com/orgs/quarkusio/projects/13

The way things look now, Spring may switch over to jakarta.* before Quarkus does, but things might still change of course.

 
Also, Open Liberty is the only one with EE 9 and MicroProfile?

In final versions indeed, but the latest Payara 6 alpha supports EE 9 and MicroProfile as well. Piranha Cloud supports EE 9 and MicroProfile too, but for the moment it supports only a subset of EE and a subset of MP. 

It took a lot of effort for MicroProfile to switch over to the Jakarta.* namespace, so the release supporting that (MicroProfile 5) only finally happened like 2 months ago. 

Kind regards,
Arjan

Josh Juneau

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Feb 22, 2022, 9:45:07 PM2/22/22
to Ondro Mihályi, Ryan Cuprak, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Ondro,

Thanks for reaching out.  I think that it will be at least 6 months to a year before I will begin migrating to Jakarta EE 10 for production applications.  Stability is certainly most important.  I will likely target JDK 17 when moving to Jakarta EE 10 as well.  Upgrading the environments again will be a hurdle, since upgrading to JDK 11 and Jakarta EE 8 only recently.  It is difficult to make an upgrade to the production environments more than once every couple of years.

I plan to start using Payara 6 for test projects soon after it is released...looking forward to it!  Thanks for all of your work!


On Feb 22, 2022, at 8:04 AM, Ondro Mihályi <ondrej....@gmail.com> wrote:



Arjan Tijms

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Feb 23, 2022, 6:41:32 AM2/23/22
to Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi,

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 3:45:07 AM UTC+1 juneau001 wrote:
It is difficult to make an upgrade to the production environments more than once every couple of years.

After many years of trying several things, what I found to work best was to continuously upgrade instead. Indeed, every couple of years is difficult, as the barrier gets bigger and bigger, and often if you wait too long it simply doesn't happen anymore.

In a somewhat larger org you may be able to dedicate someone specifically to this task, who each sprint or whatever unit you use to release something looks at upgrading whatever can be upgraded. For things with more impact it sometimes means you have to keep a branch where you perform the upgrade, and that branch will be tested along with the non-upgraded branch for a couple of generations (and kept in sync).

Just my 2 cents ;)

Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms

Martijn Verburg

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Feb 23, 2022, 8:14:52 AM2/23/22
to Arjan Tijms, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi all,

I've tried to update the tracking sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gEv8IK2xXYJxf2i0uUCwfIBMPybF9XMOczhA--hdRaE/edit#gid=0) as best as I can, but I'd appreciate folks taking a look and correcting my errors, especially for compatible runtimes.

Cheers,
Martijn


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Kito Mann

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Feb 23, 2022, 1:44:18 PM2/23/22
to Arjan Tijms, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hey Arjan,

I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but how hard have you found it to sell the "continuous upgrade" philosophy?
___

Kito D. Mann | @kito99 | Java Champion | Google Developer Expert | LinkedIn
Expert training and consulting: PrimeFaces, PrimeNG, JSF, Java EE, Web Components, Angular
Virtua, Inc. | virtua.tech 

* Enterprise development, front and back. Listen to stackdpodcast.com.




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arjan tijms

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Feb 23, 2022, 4:27:35 PM2/23/22
to Kito Mann, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi,

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 7:44 PM Kito Mann <kito...@virtua.com> wrote:
I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but how hard have you found it to sell the "continuous upgrade" philosophy?

It obviously depends on the customer or employer, and sometimes the project itself. If I can take or have ownership of the process I can simply decide to do it. If not, it's not always easy indeed.

As Josh mentioned, organisations often think it's cheaper to only upgrade once every 3 years, since they would only have to upgrade once. I try to explain that it doesn't always work like that. But as you probably know, in some organisations there's like a network of projects and layers, and if you're only tasked to work on some edge module it's obviously difficult or impossible to convince people.

It probably also goes without saying that a "continuous upgrade" philosophy also requires a good and thorough testing infrastructure.

Kind regards,
Arjan

Josh Juneau

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Feb 24, 2022, 7:56:48 AM2/24/22
to arjan tijms, Kito Mann, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Thanks for the feedback Arjan.  It is difficult to upgrade often when the team is small.  I've found the biggest issue to be resources and time, and many systems to manage.  I think continuously upgrading would be great if the resources were available to do so. 

Best Regards

Kito Mann

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Feb 24, 2022, 2:08:31 PM2/24/22
to arjan tijms, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
It's an interesting approach, for sure... even in environments where things are face-paced (as well as change), they tend to stick with existing dependencies rather than upgrade continuously... It'd be cool to have a CI server that would automatically upgrade dependencies to see what beaks during integration tests 🤔.

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Expert training and consulting: PrimeFaces, PrimeNG, JSF, Java EE, Web Components, Angular
Virtua, Inc. | virtua.tech 

* Enterprise development, front and back. Listen to stackdpodcast.com.



Reza Rahman

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Feb 25, 2022, 8:53:07 AM2/25/22
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It’s an interesting conundrum. As far as I have seen, there isn’t much enthusiasm or uptake for Jakarta EE 9. Even from an advocacy perspective, it’s difficult to do much without fundamental innovation. I think Jakarta EE 10, the Core Profile and beyond is going to be very important to regaining community momentum. A critical piece is runtimes like Quarkus and Helidon adoption Jakarta EE in some shape or the other.

Given the current situation my focus has been to do what I can (enabling runtimes to successfully adapt to the cloud, moving forward Cargo Tracker, the Starter, the Samples), emphasizing interesting mashups (like JavaScipt frameworks, Kubernetes, NoSQL, DDD, Testcontainers, Records, etc) and encouraging people to contribute in some fashion to Jakarta EE 10 and beyond.

These aren’t great answers, but that’s we have to work with if we fundamentally believe in the core value proposition of open standards in enterprise Java.

Reza Rahman
Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

From: jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com <jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ryan Cuprak <rcu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 1:31:58 PM
To: Jakarta EE Ambassadors <jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [jakartaee-ambassadors] Jakarta EE 9/10 & Future
 
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hantsy bai

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Feb 25, 2022, 8:37:40 PM2/25/22
to Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
 Hi Ryan,

Yes,  there are some China companies that have Jakarta EE certifications, but maybe they are a little disappointed. As far as I know, I don't know any advocate activities in China Java communities from these companies .  In China, Java EE/Jakarta EE is not so popular among the young people, many Java developers believe in Spring, and know little about the JakartaEE specs themselves.

Personally, I hope Jakarta EE spec becomes more lightweight, and easier to use. Let the end users decide to use it with/without traditional application servers, I think cloud native ready is the vital task .

Hantsy Bai

Self-employed consultant, fullstack developer, agile coach

GitHub: https://github.com/hantsy

Twitter: https://twitter.com/@hantsy

Medium: https://medium.com/@hantsy


Ondro Mihályi

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Feb 26, 2022, 5:59:17 AM2/26/22
to hantsy bai, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hello, Hantsy,

It's sad there aren't any Jakarta EE advocate activities in China from local companies. I don't see this only in China but also in Japan and other countries in the asian region. Do you think that advocacy from English-speaking advocates would help and would be welcome? E.g. virtual presentations for Chinese JUGs remotely? Are Java developers in China interested or they would rather want local advocates and better support from local companies?

Ondro

so 26. 2. 2022 o 2:37 hantsy bai <han...@gmail.com> napísal(a):

Emily Jiang

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Feb 28, 2022, 6:47:07 AM2/28/22
to Ondro Mihályi, hantsy bai, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
As for pushing Jakarta EE and MicroProfile in Asia and Pacific, I think we should work together to do more promotion, e.g. a virtual tour or some sort. I did a presentation on MicroProfile and Jakarta EE back in 2019 at QCon Beijing. At that time, not many attendees knew about Jakarta EE and MicroProfile. On the contrary, Spring was well known thanks to a regular spring tour. I was told Spring advocates had frequent tours around China. Maybe we can set something up and work with the Jakarta EE group in China. I can help with making this connection and driving this activity. Who else is also interested?

As for the adoption and support for Jakarta EE 9.1, so far, I think so far only Open Liberty has the support for jakarta.* namespace (Jakarta EE 9.1 and MicroProfile 5.0) in production versions. Personally, I highly recommend the applications should be migrated to Jakarta EE 9.1 as namespace changes are not trivial. At least, Jakarta EE 9.1 functions identical to Jakarta EE 8 so it is much easier to debug issues if the migrated application is not working. Therefore, I think it will be very tweaky to leave the migration and jakarta namespace switch to EE 10 as there will be many moving parts and difficult to debug if something is not working.

If you want to create new applications, I highly recommend you start with jakarta namespace. You can use Open Liberty Starter to create cloud native applications with Jakarta EE 9.1 and MicroProfile 5.0 to try it out.

Thanks
Emily




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Emily

Reza Rahman

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Feb 28, 2022, 7:20:42 AM2/28/22
to Jakarta EE Ambassadors, hantsy bai, Ondro Mihályi, Emily Jiang
Hi Emily,

I am still trying to minimize travel but I am always happy to speak virtually. I am also pretty sure I can arrange for one or more native speakers. Do you have community connections in China we can explore?

Reza Rahman
Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

From: Emily Jiang <emij...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 6:46:53 AM
To: Ondro Mihályi <ondrej....@gmail.com>
Cc: hantsy bai <han...@gmail.com>; Reza Rahman <m.reza...@gmail.com>; Jakarta EE Ambassadors <jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-ambassadors] Jakarta EE 9/10 & Future
 

Emily Jiang

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Feb 28, 2022, 7:32:15 AM2/28/22
to Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, hantsy bai, Ondro Mihályi
Hi Reza,
Thanks for your quick reply! Yes, I am part of the Jakarta EE group in China. I will start a conversation there to see whether we can start a virtual meet up or some sort to start with. I will keep you posted on this.

Thanks
Emily

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Thanks
Emily

hantsy bai

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Feb 28, 2022, 9:25:46 AM2/28/22
to Emily Jiang, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi
Hi Ondro, Emily and Reza,

Most people from my circles are working in IT related domain, but it seems the latest young people show little interest in Jakarta EE spec, some of them have worked for 5 years but never developed a traditional web application and deployed into a Servlet container or application servers.

Emily, if you try to start a conference/meetup, consider contacting the staff from OSchina.net, they maintain a community which contains millions of China developers . Before this pandemic,  they scheduled a meetup (源创会) every month in the biggest cities in China. The 2019 yearly conference may be the last meetup: https://www.oschina.net/question/3799215_2313676, then they switch to online meeting, but it seems the online meeting is not as active as the face-to-face meetup.

But unfortunately I have browsed the past topics, there is no Jakarta EE topic in the past years.

Regards,

Hantsy Bai

Self-employed consultant, fullstack developer, agile coach

GitHub: https://github.com/hantsy

Twitter: https://twitter.com/@hantsy

Medium: https://medium.com/@hantsy

Tanja Obradovic

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Feb 28, 2022, 10:07:12 AM2/28/22
to hantsy bai, Emily Jiang, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi, jakarta.ee-co...@eclipse.org
Hello All,

Having more presence in China would be amazing. I am encouraging our Jakarta EE working group members to consider having JakartaOne Livestream in Chinese. 

If Ambassadors can help with talks in Chinese and promotion, maybe this is a good year to start! I will certainly contact OSChina.net to see if there is any opportunity for there. 

Looping in China Jakarta EE community on the thread as well.

Regards,
Tanja



On Feb 28, 2022, at 3:25 PM, hantsy bai <han...@gmail.com> wrote:



Reza Rahman

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Feb 28, 2022, 10:14:14 AM2/28/22
to Tanja Obradovic, hantsy bai, Emily Jiang, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi, jakarta.ee-co...@eclipse.org
As I suggested, would be relatively easy to arrange for one or two native speakers if helpful. I am also happy to present remotely.

Reza Rahman
Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

From: Tanja Obradovic <tanja.o...@eclipse-foundation.org>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 10:07:06 AM
To: hantsy bai <han...@gmail.com>
Cc: Emily Jiang <emij...@googlemail.com>; Reza Rahman <m.reza...@gmail.com>; Jakarta EE Ambassadors <jakartaee-...@googlegroups.com>; Ondro Mihályi <ondrej....@gmail.com>; jakarta.ee-co...@eclipse.org <jakarta.ee-co...@eclipse.org>

Kito Mann

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Feb 28, 2022, 12:01:37 PM2/28/22
to hantsy bai, Emily Jiang, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi
Hello Hantsy,

I think you're echoing a common misconception: that using Jakarta EE requires app servers. A lot of Spring (Boot) developers are using parts of Jakarta EE and just don't realize it (JAX-RS, JPA, Servlet, etc), and you can create fat JARs based on most of the current Jakarta EE runtimes. I think that needs to be part of our message: parts of Jakarta EE are in most Java server-side apps (cloud or otherwise).

___

Kito D. Mann | @kito99 | Java Champion | Google Developer Expert | LinkedIn
Expert training and consulting: PrimeFaces, PrimeNG, JSF, Java EE, Web Components, Angular
Virtua, Inc. | virtua.tech 

* Enterprise development, front and back. Listen to stackdpodcast.com.



arjan tijms

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Feb 28, 2022, 12:18:57 PM2/28/22
to hantsy bai, Emily Jiang, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi
Hi,

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 3:25 PM hantsy bai <han...@gmail.com> wrote:
Most people from my circles are working in IT related domain, but it seems the latest young people show little interest in Jakarta EE spec

Taking this more broadly, I think our industry naturally gravitates towards monopolies. We all want to use whatever IDE, build-tool, libraries, etc we think everybody else is using. While from an individual developer's perspective this is understandable, the problems with monopolies are well known. We all want product A to win, but if product A actually fully wins, we all suffer. Product A will almost always be neglected and not innovate as much or at all.

Of course this is a difficult message especially since individuals do not benefit immediately when changing this, but only longer term.

Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms 


hantsy bai

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Feb 28, 2022, 9:10:27 PM2/28/22
to arjan tijms, Emily Jiang, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi
Hi Arjan, but you have to know the thoughts of these people will affect the decision of a company. Finally, few companies adopt Jakarta EE. 

What they need is a simple framework(or add some modification to lowcodes flatform) to build the product quickly. Maybe fewer leaders of companies are thinking more about the future of a product, what they want is putting the product to the market  as soon as possible. Personally, I really dislike some cultures in modern China companies.

Regards,

Hantsy Bai

Self-employed consultant, fullstack developer, agile coach

GitHub: https://github.com/hantsy

Twitter: https://twitter.com/@hantsy

Medium: https://medium.com/@hantsy

hantsy bai

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Feb 28, 2022, 9:12:13 PM2/28/22
to Kito Mann, Emily Jiang, Reza Rahman, Jakarta EE Ambassadors, Ondro Mihályi
Hi Kito, you are right.


Hantsy Bai

Self-employed consultant, fullstack developer, agile coach

GitHub: https://github.com/hantsy

Twitter: https://twitter.com/@hantsy

Medium: https://medium.com/@hantsy

Ryan Cuprak

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Mar 1, 2022, 12:32:33 AM3/1/22
to hantsy bai, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Hantsy,
 
 What are companies typically adopting for building applications? 

Regards,
-Ryan Cuprak

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Ryan Cuprak

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Mar 1, 2022, 12:54:09 AM3/1/22
to Emily Jiang, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Emily,
 
 What do you need in terms of help? I have several presentations that could be used for the tour. I could put together a rough script that whoever is delivering them in Chinese could use. 

 Regarding Spring, Spring developers need to be made aware that this migration also affects them. 

Regards,
-Ryan Cuprak

Emily Jiang

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Mar 1, 2022, 5:21:27 AM3/1/22
to Ryan Cuprak, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Ryan,
If we can collect some materials with a transcript in one place, it will be great as we can then find people who can speak Chinese to deliver the presentations. Maybe we can use Jakarta EE googledrive to store these materials. Tanja, any thoughts on this?

Thanks
Emily
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Ryan Cuprak

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Mar 1, 2022, 8:28:50 AM3/1/22
to Martijn Verburg, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
Hi Martijn,
 What would count as full support for the IDEs? IntelliJ has a feature to refactor a project to Jakarta EE now. 

 I’ve put together a list of Maven coordinates for projects including Hibernate, PrimeFaces, etc.

 One thing I’ve noticed that will cause confusion is how to distinguish between pre-9 and post-9 libraries are the Maven coordinates. Some projects are using a classifier (Hibernate) and releasing the same version for both whereas other are doing a major release (so 3.x is 8 and 4.x is 9+). I think there should be some guidelines for Maven coordinates so you can easily tell whether a dependency is Jakarta EE 9.x+ or not. I had to resort in once case to downloading and poking around in a JAR file. 

 Also, I think there is a need for a utility/Maven/Gradle plugin that scans a pom.xml file and transitive dependencies telling you what needs to be updated. 

 Are any of the containers supporting both 8 and 9 together? In that you could deploy a 8 app (container would transform it it) to 9.x?

-Ryan

Martijn Verburg

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Mar 1, 2022, 8:30:08 AM3/1/22
to Ryan Cuprak, Jakarta EE Ambassadors
For me an IDE having migration support like IntelliJ would count.  Maven/Gradle tooling support is a little separate

Cheers,
Martijn

Ondro Mihályi

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Mar 2, 2022, 3:19:49 AM3/2/22