"Its time has passed?"

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Robert Holland

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Sep 15, 2021, 4:06:04 AM9/15/21
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For various reasons (relating to moving house) I've not been able to contribute for a while, but was intrigued by the above comment on FB this morning re availability of the Virtual Studio devices (now renamed 'bridges' - thanks Synthia).

I'm gradually getting back to some live playing with community groups over here in the UK but I have been playing regularly with a small group using JackTrip for several months now. Other than a few very enthusiastic 'JackTrippers', it has proved very difficult getting people to take much interest over the summer months.

Now that amatuer groups are allowed to meet face to face again, and with autumn / winter approaching, I sense that there is actually increased interest, especially as it is now much easier to invite people into our JackTrip equipped homes to demonstrate the technology in use and while Covid restrictions remain in place at many community venues. I sense that many elderly musicians especially don't want to be travelling out late at night for rehearsals during winter months to meet in poorly ventilated rooms. Our 80 year old swing band drummer is now back to doing several nights a week, hauling his drum kit in and out of his car each time. He'd dearly love more people to be using JackTrip!

Just wondering what other members of this group felt about the comment as activity on this user group has also reduced in recent months.

Cheers,

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Robert E B Holland




BG Lyon

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Sep 15, 2021, 2:21:21 PM9/15/21
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Gosh.  I can not begin to express the gratitude I feel to the JackTrip community in general (and Synthia in particular!!) for making it possible to play together not only during lockdown, but also when we don't feel well, or the weather is bad, or our friends or family happen to live several hundred miles away (!!) - I've been playing regularly over the interwebs thanks to JackTrip with friends several states away in the US and with my son who lives a couple hours away by car (and never has any time - so this way, no planning, we can just spur of the moment play together).  I'd say, quite to the contrary, we're only now beginning to realize the potential this technology offers us all.  It's time is just beginning.
Cheers!
Beth

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Synthia Cynthia Payne

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Sep 15, 2021, 2:36:01 PM9/15/21
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Thanks for your kind words, Beth!
It should be noted that Beth is using the command line version of
JackTrip and her community has done quite well with it. I believe the
comment in this string is referring to the JackTrip hardware devices and
could be related to their availability outside of the US. I hope that
the devices will be more widely distributed in the near future.

synthia

On 9/15/2021 11:20 AM, BG Lyon wrote:
> Gosh.  I can not begin to express the gratitude I feel to the JackTrip
> community in general (and Synthia in particular!!) for making it
> possible to play together not only during lockdown, but also when we
> don't feel well, or the weather is bad, or our friends or family happen
> to live several hundred miles away (!!) - I've been playing regularly
> over the interwebs thanks to JackTrip with friends several states away
> in the US and with my son who lives a couple hours away by car (and
> never has any time - so this way, no planning, we can just spur of the
> moment play together).  I'd say, quite to the contrary, we're only now
> beginning to realize the potential this technology offers us all.  I*t's
> time is just beginning.*
> <mailto:jacktrip-user...@googlegroups.com>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CAB_9hjP0iHmqDxzG%3DmGL7az37ucsft%2BaDfpusiPG2CyxztyWpw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
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Chris Chafe

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Sep 15, 2021, 2:56:13 PM9/15/21
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It's the same for me, too. I've never done so much playing and it's
being able join in from home that's the difference.

A huge thanks to the JackTrip developers who've jumped in since the start of 
the pandemic and have kept up an incredible pace of improvements. 

For anyone who'd like to try the latest software version, it's at
and includes installers to try out. The "rc" stands for "release candidate."
We're hoping to finalize version 1.4 shortly and any feedback would be
super useful.

The new features are listed here: 

Chris

Michael Dessen

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Sep 15, 2021, 3:48:57 PM9/15/21
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Thank you to Chris for the updates and to all the developers and people providing support for the ongoing work and foundation! The new additions in 1.4 look great.

Michael
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Robert Holland

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Sep 16, 2021, 5:34:47 AM9/16/21
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Thank you for your comments and everyone's hard work in making JackTrip more accessible.

I totally agree with Beth's comments about this just being the beginning. I'll keep plugging away at it over here as there are no significant problems with broadband in this part of the UK (South Yorkshire) when using the Virtual Studio servers in London, although reliance on WiFi remains a significant problem.

I had a two hour car journey last night (plus a Covid test and an hour's set up / tear down) to play with our swing band at it's first rehearsal since March 2020. All this for just over 60 minutes playing against a backing track (no drums, bass or piano available). I'm not sure I want to do this again on a weekly basis - times have changed.

I think I need to invite some of our wind players and singers to my home to give this a whirl. Those with larger instruments and equipment to carry to rehearsals are much easier to convince about the benefits of JackTrip.

Onwards and upwards!

neal rhodes

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Sep 20, 2021, 9:40:12 PM9/20/21
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Our situation remains stable, and we use our local server and VS boxes every week for two music groups at church.  Two groups use it for practice, and the chancel choir actually feeds 5 voices into the sanctuary to mix in with the onsite choir for services.   I haven't paid much (ok, any) attention to changes because what we're doing works good enough. 

regards, 

Neal

joel bass

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Jan 24, 2022, 8:31:40 PMJan 24
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:  )

joel bass

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Jan 24, 2022, 8:33:52 PMJan 24
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:  )

BG Lyon

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Jan 25, 2022, 11:00:20 AMJan 25
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Just an update - we've added FarPlay into our mix (thanks Dan!) because for some folks the complications of JackTrip are formidable enough to strike fear in their hearts.  I use both - command line JackTrip, esp since FarPlay does not yet allow more than two connections at a time and we like to play in groups, and FarPlay, with folks who prefer the simplicity (most recently as a trio, using a splitter for our headsets, and it was glorious).  FarPlay would not exist were it not for JackTrip - I believe that's correct?  I could be wrong, but that is how I understand its development.  I will say it again, this time with the appropriate lack of comma, ;),  "Its time is just beginning" --  a huge and grateful shout out to all in the community who have continually aided in the development of these life-changing and mood-improving technologies.  
Beth

Synthia Cynthia Payne

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Jan 25, 2022, 1:21:07 PMJan 25
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Beth is using the old command line version of JackTrip, and I would encourage everyone to become familiar with the latest version that does not require using the command line, and includes a GUI, that's a graphical user interface. It is extremely easy to use and even allows using RtAudio as the backend, instead of JACK! Please try it and experience the massive new developments.

Synthia

BG Lyon

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Jan 25, 2022, 1:49:41 PMJan 25
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Thank you, Synth!!  I confess I have not updated (cuz... tried and true and working) - I'll have to try the new bells and whistles!
Beth

Ken Fields

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Jul 15, 2022, 12:59:08 AMJul 15
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Hi, we're getting ready to update artsmesh.  
The artsmesh router and Jack audio combination are still working great on macOS Mojave. But it's time to M(2) up.
Sorry, I've been distant from network music activities for a while. I'll do some catch-up this summer.

as i understand it. jack audio is not working on new macos M series chips correct? 
Does it just not install at all? Is it not compatible at all with the new macOS architecture now?
Or is it just the jack router application that doesn't work? Could someone clarify that. 

Are there any dream scenarios for macOS next generation inter-application routing. suggestions?
Should we try to convert our jack router to an RtRouter? Is that even possible?
Does Rtaudio even have the api for inter-application io?

Otherwise, do blackhole and Dante facilitate any multichannel visual routing tools to jacktrip? anyone doing that?

Other suggestions?

Appreciate your feedback.

Ken


Sondra Harnes

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Jul 15, 2022, 7:08:46 AMJul 15
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I am puzzled by your remarks. I have a new Apple computer with the chip. JT is working very well. I teach private voice lessons and also have rehearsals for my children's choir using JT. We also just set up to have hybrid rehearsals in September. Some students will be singing together in person in Arlington, VA. They will be joined by students singing from home here, as well as others who live outside the Washington, DC area. We are receiving requests for information from parents whose children who need to continue to quarantine for medical reasons, as well as a few parents who like the idea of not have to drive to rehearsal. 

Kenneth Fields

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Jul 15, 2022, 7:55:49 AMJul 15
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hi,
my concern is related to using JT in an environments that needs to be more responsive to complex setups.
In the past we used Jack audio (with router) to patch JT channels into for example, Logic Pro.

How are you recording your choir? How do you get jacktrip output into your recording software? 

Ken








Mike O'Connor

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Jul 15, 2022, 8:23:06 AMJul 15
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hi Ken, 

there are a number of ways to do complex audio routing with Jacktrip.  i feel like i've only scratched the surface and am sure there are lots of others on this list who can contribute other examples.  but here are a couple...

this is a blog about using Loopback to do connections between Jacktrip and a variety of softwares (including Logic, Ableton Live and Max).  it only covers very basic scenarios.  for example, the scenarios only describe one thing at a time (eg, into Logic, out of Logic).  i limited my examples to a very small audio interface (Focusrite 2i2) and only two-channel audio.  but out of the building blocks described there it's possible to do all kinds of cool audio routing -- including passing audio from a player to performer who layers a performance on top and then back back to the player again.


another approach is to switch to a DAW that natively supports Jack for mixing and recording and then loading the results into another DAW (ala Logic) for post process.  i've had very good results doing larger scale (up to 20 people so far) mixing and recording rehearsals and performances using the Ardour DAW as the routing/mixing fabric on an inexpensive headless Linux (Linode) server.  more on that here...


as i said, i'm sure there are LOTs of other examples.  :-)

mike o'conoor

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Mike O'Connor

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Jul 15, 2022, 10:45:28 AMJul 15
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sorry to keep leaping in with contradictions, but Jack and Jacktrip both run fine on my M1 Mac running Monterey.  here's a screenshot.



On Jul 15, 2022, at 9:31 AM, Marc Ainger <aing...@osu.edu> wrote:


Hi Ken,

I believe the answer is that jack  does not work on Mac after Catalina. Jacktrip does work, but you must use RtAudio instead of jack as the backend.
With Windows, or anything non-MacOS, jack still works, and is still be actively developed.
Correct me if this is wrong, but it is my understanding.

I do routing with BlackHole, but I imagine that Loopback, as Mike has pointed out, provides even better possibilities.

I will also mention that our postdoc, Fede Camara Halac, built a mixer in Pd for Jack by  grafting some of Miller Puckette's NettyMcNetFace code. it's a pretty interesting idea that could probably be extended (using the hubmode 3(? ) to route Jacktrip to Pd).
 (If we want to continue this particular discussion, maybe you can start a new thread - I imagine this one is kind of buried now...)

Best,
Marc

Federico Barluzzi

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Jul 15, 2022, 11:00:21 AMJul 15
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Hi Mike,

Do you feel comfortable using the Loopback monitoring function? I can feel a lot of delay like when you use hi buffer size. Sorry but I’m just curious ☺️.
Btw I’m using Ardour with JACK and I absolutely love it!

P.s. I would also recommend this https://gingeraudio.com/

Cheers 

Federico 

Il giorno 15 lug 2022, alle ore 16:31, Marc Ainger <aing...@osu.edu> ha scritto:


Message has been deleted

Marcin Pączkowski

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Jul 15, 2022, 11:46:14 AMJul 15
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With Windows, or anything non-MacOS, jack still works, and is still be actively developed.
Correct me if this is wrong, but it is my understanding.
I'm sorry, but this is plain INCORRECT.
I encourage everyone to check their information before posting. This is then found by others on the internet and inaccurate information spreads...

Jack does work on the current version of macOS, both on intel and on arm (M1).

What does NOT work anymore on macOS is JackRouter, the bridge that allows regular (non-jack native) apps to use Jack. 

JackTrip works on macOS and Windows both with and without Jack, in the latter case thanks to the RtAudio backend.

Marcin

Mike O'Connor

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Jul 15, 2022, 12:00:44 PMJul 15
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hi Marc,

just to tie your response to Martin's -- there's a difference between Jack, Jack Router and Jacktrip.  Jack and Jacktrip run fine on Monterey, but Jack Router does not.  with newer versions of MacOS, you use QjackCtl instead of Jack Router.

On Jul 15, 2022, at 10:19 AM, Marc Ainger <aing...@osu.edu> wrote:

Hi Mike,

So that is why I was asking for confirmation about jack.  Jack doesn't run on my Monterey OS - what version of Jack audio are you using?

Marc
Message has been deleted

Marcin Pączkowski

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Jul 15, 2022, 12:05:48 PMJul 15
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with newer versions of MacOS, you use QjackCtl instead of Jack Router.
With all due respect, this is incorrect.

You probably meant QJackCtl instead of JackPilot. Both of these programs manage Jack connections between Jack clients.

JackRouter exposes non-jack apps as jack clients, offering a "virtual sound card" that an app can use to exchange audio with Jack.

I hope this makes sense?
Marcin
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Sondra Harnes

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Jul 15, 2022, 1:38:44 PMJul 15
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Have to admit I don't know how to record using JT.  With assistance from IT and recording engineer volunteers, we have streamed live to YouTube - have recording from there. I would love to know how to record, but, according to my son (audio engineer) it's too complicated for this senior citizen.  :-)

Mike O'Connor

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Jul 15, 2022, 3:22:41 PMJul 15
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interesting!  i've never come across that shell dependency.  what shell were you using before switching to zsh?

On Jul 15, 2022, at 11:07 AM, Marc Ainger <aing...@osu.edu> wrote:

Thanks again, Mike

I am using QJackCtl, but , again, the peoblem was just getting jack to run in the first place.  Changing to zsh did the trick.  Again, thanks for the help as always!

Marc

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 12:04:45 PM UTC-4 Marc Ainger wrote:
Hi Marcin,
Again, this is why I was asking to be corrected if I was wrong.  I'm not sure how else to check on this if not in a group such as this one. 
What I have found since Mike's kind reply was that jackd was not working on my upgraded Monterey. I was trying to start  jackd from the terminal, and it was not working. What I found was that I had to also update to zsh.  So now things are running fine, but I wold never have known this without Mike's help. 
I think this also goes to Ken's original questions.

Best,
Marc
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Mike O'Connor

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Jul 15, 2022, 3:23:54 PMJul 15
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hrrrmm...   there are a lot of senior citizens on this list who would take issue with your son...  :-)

ping me directly if you'd like -- i'd be happy to help you get set up. 

mike

Kenneth Fields

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Jul 16, 2022, 12:14:34 AMJul 16
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Cool! That is such a relief (for us mac users) that Jack (jackd) is working on M1-2 chips.
Artsmesh IS a jack router (takes the place of jackpilot and qjackctl). 
We should be updated to new macOS by september.

@MarcA
Weird that the zsh would have an impact unless it smooths out paths to apps.
The jackdmp/jackd path did change somewhere along the way from usr/local to usr/local/bin/.
And I had to update that path in qjackctl when Mojave came along.

But to test without any software interface in macOS: (run jack from terminal):
/usr/local/bin/jackd -R -d coreaudio -r 44100 -p 128 -o 2 -i 2 -C "Built-in Microphone" -P "Built-in Output”

Artsmesh circle router and Jacktrip GUI: (with ableton live with 8 channels in, 2 out).
so you can patch jacktrip connections into your multichannel DAW:

 

Day trippers yeah,
Ken





 





Kenneth Fields

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Jul 17, 2022, 1:21:04 AMJul 17
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Thanks mike,
the 'pretty good' Jacktrip toolkit actually looks 'really good.’

wondering about ardor as the mixer on the hub. Does ardour have individual track delays like ableton?
I'm thinking of an algorithm that would tweek all the tracks on server side to align to give everyone at least a shot with synchronizing tempi/rhythms.
Sometimes, you just need a millisecond or 10 to get the audio echo patterns to sync in.

Ken






Mike O'Connor

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Jul 17, 2022, 8:50:14 AMJul 17
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hi Ken,

thanks!  high praise.  the web site's a little dusty because i've come to the conclusion that the only person using PGJTT is...  me.  :-)

i'm really interested in hearing more about how you use delay in that way -- it would be a lot of fun to try that out.  in answer to your question, yes.  Ardour comes with about 20 VSTs when its installed.  one of those is a track-delay plugin.  but it also supports any VST/VST3 plugin so it's easy to import/use your own if you have a favorite.  i add a gate plugin to the PGJTT -- really handy for taming a noisy participant.  

here's a screen shot of the Ardour delay VST.  my first-guess settings would be 

Sync BPM off  set delay in mSec's, not fractions of a beat (although that might be fun to try)
Enable on turns on the plugin
Time is the amount of delay in ms -- 7.7 in this example
Divisor n/a set delay when synced to BPM (fractions of a note)
Dry/Wet 100% original signal isn't included
Feedback 0% no echo/loopback of the output
LPF 20k wide open, no filtering
Output gain 0db no change to volume

all the "manual" thingys are for track automation, so those can be ignored.  but all these settings show up as OSC-controls which means they can be manipulated over the 'net if you want.  i'm experimenting with that using PD.





Andrew Forsyth

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Sep 22, 2022, 5:15:11 PM (13 days ago) Sep 22
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Just wanted to pitch in that on the development side we've been really trying to eliminate barriers for getting people connected through JackTrip across the board. Three main things
  • Make cloud server creation and administration super non-technical
  • Make JackTrip on computer as straightforward and streamlined as possible for connecting to the server
  • Similarly, don't require special hardware like the bridge to connect to JackTrip
The bridge in particular was sort of a necessary interim step to get people connected. But realistically, we think that making JackTrip itself easier is the way to go to get people like your 80yo drummer connected. The bridge is still useful but making people buy separate hardware is difficult and will always be a fundamental barrier for many.

Making something complicated simple is hard to do, but we keep chopping away at it. For example, for a long time it was very hard to tell if JackTrip was working because there wasn't feedback about whether audio was being connected successfully. We now have volume meters on the cloud server interface (Virtual Studio) AND on the app itself, which is a long overdue ease of use thing that is finally here.

Studio volume meters product update:

JackTrip app volume meters update:

You'll also see some other recent additions that are targeted at making the experience easier overall. For instance, launching the app from the browser, the way Zoom does. Has been a huge relief for daily ease of use.

Anyhow, I certainly appreciate the discussion here and hope that this is just the beginning, as many have said already!

Cheers,
Andrew

Robert Holland

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Sep 24, 2022, 7:26:40 AM (11 days ago) Sep 24
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Hi Andrew,

Our 80+yo drummer (Trevor) remains extremely enthusiastic about JackTrip. Although he's back out playing several nights a week (& rehearsing most days) in these days of increased fuel costs he'd like many others to start using JackTrip so that he didn't have to travel so much. The main barrier to uptake for many members of his other groups remains lack of broadband in the rural areas surrounding Sheffield (UK). I personally have an excellent connection but many of my friends in the UK share similar frustrations.

The cost of the bridge (RPi + Behringer UM2 connected directly to his electronic drum kit) was definitely not a barrier in Trevor's case. Any additional cost at all remains a barrier for many members of local choirs where many see their regained social contact (post Covid) more important than being able to sing together over the internet. The obvious cost savings made in reduced travel don't seem to make up for this, but then there's nowt so funny as folk.

Upgrading Trevor's aging Windows laptop and adding the UM2 to that would have been more difficult, and I think he would have needed much more support from me. FWIW I don't see too many (retired) folks of my age (66) using laptops or desktops on a regular basis nowadays & the musicians among them are more likely to upgrade their phones / tablets to make use of applications like ForScore. For many others shiny new guitars, trombones and saxophones are an 'essential' expense (& why not?). Being able to run JackTrip on the same device might be more attractive to them though. FWIW I currently run iMac, MBP and iPad Pro but now that I'm retired I will have to consider more carefully which of those I choose to upgrade in a few years (iPad Pro would be my favourite). The bridge on the other hand is very easy to dedicate to music use (do one thing well) and so I hope this will be retained as a core platform and not just a means to an end.

The recent upgrades are excellent and really do make it much easier for those who already have relevant equipment available. The requirement for a physical ethernet connection is a much more difficult hurdle to overcome in the typical UK household - especially so as more recent laptops have no physical port (so require add-ons). New house builds don't help much either in what seems to be a drive towards everything being wireless.

FYI Our choir will be singing at Clumber Park (https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/clumber-park) next weekend where we will be performing Eric Whitacre's Sing Gently for the first time alongside some other music heard following Queen Elizabeth's recent death. Our choirmaster is another very enthusiastic JackTrip user but between us we've so far failed miserably with our own choir.

Keep up the good work!

Robert

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