JackTrip vs Jamulus vs JamKazam

[Wm Leler]

I'm giving a presentation tomorrow talking about various systems that allow music to be played remotely. I'm going to mention a bunch of systems, and I want to give a quick summary of each one, including pros and cons.

What are the main pros and cons of JackTrip, Jamulus, and JamKazam? Why would someone pick one of these systems versus another?

I'd appreciate it, and I'll post my slides here when I finish them.

Wm Leler

[BG Lyon]

My friends and I tried JamKazam and Sonobus.  We could not get either one to work acceptably well.  JackTrip was the only thing that worked for us, and until now (and we’ll get it up again), it was fantastic, so we did not even bother with Jamulus... In  answer to your question, for us, JackTrip has excellent sound quality and virtually no latency.  JamKazam had terrible latency and sound quality for us so it was a non starter.

JackTrip:  Configuration on Windows is problematic.  If you have a Mac, it’s much less problematic but still requires a great deal of patience and computer literacy, or at least so far that has been our experience.  This is not a plug and play system - for us, we needed me to set up port forwarding and to be the server for my friends.  Once that was set up, the updates provided all the bugs, but otherwise we had successful experiences (in fact... I kind of wish everything had been left as it was a few weeks ago... we were sailing along beautifully until we tried to install the updates - and trying to return to the state before the updates has eluded us thus far).

Once we finally did get JackTrip up and running, it was a life changer.  We are looking forward to getting the bugs figured out with the updates so we can be back to our weekly music sessions again.  

I had successful JT experiences from Philly area to Burlington VT and to Allentown area.  On NYE we had a pretty nice jam going kind of internationally.  Some latency, of course, but not enough to ruin our fun.  

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Beth Lyon
423 Brookhurst Avenue
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bethly...@gmail.com

[Wm Leler]

Thanks, that helps!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CACFa5NnYPSAQ0ZMDFirs%3DuGQMrUJLtzaZZrR5CELHou4voLEwg%40mail.gmail.com.

[BG Lyon]

Sure - interested to see what else you hear/come up with from others - we keep reading about how great some of these other systems are and we wonder why they don't work for us (on the other hand, if it ain't broke, and if we can get the update bugs ironed out, it ain't broke).

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:46 PM Wm Leler <w...@leler.com> wrote:

Thanks, that helps!

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 6:09 PM BG Lyon <bethly...@gmail.com> wrote:

My friends and I tried JamKazam and Sonobus.  We could not get either one to work acceptably well.  JackTrip was the only thing that worked for us, and until now (and we’ll get it up again), it was fantastic, so we did not even bother with Jamulus... In  answer to your question, for us, JackTrip has excellent sound quality and virtually no latency.  JamKazam had terrible latency and sound quality for us so it was a non starter.

JackTrip:  Configuration on Windows is problematic.  If you have a Mac, it’s much less problematic but still requires a great deal of patience and computer literacy, or at least so far that has been our experience.  This is not a plug and play system - for us, we needed me to set up port forwarding and to be the server for my friends.  Once that was set up, the updates provided all the bugs, but otherwise we had successful experiences (in fact... I kind of wish everything had been left as it was a few weeks ago... we were sailing along beautifully until we tried to install the updates - and trying to return to the state before the updates has eluded us thus far).

Once we finally did get JackTrip up and running, it was a life changer.  We are looking forward to getting the bugs figured out with the updates so we can be back to our weekly music sessions again.  

I had successful JT experiences from Philly area to Burlington VT and to Allentown area.  On NYE we had a pretty nice jam going kind of internationally.  Some latency, of course, but not enough to ruin our fun.  

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 7:56 PM Wm Leler <w...@leler.com> wrote:

I'm giving a presentation tomorrow talking about various systems that allow music to be played remotely. I'm going to mention a bunch of systems, and I want to give a quick summary of each one, including pros and cons.

What are the main pros and cons of JackTrip, Jamulus, and JamKazam? Why would someone pick one of these systems versus another?

I'd appreciate it, and I'll post my slides here when I finish them.

Wm Leler

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[Ben Loveridge]

From my perspective, for anyone wanting to get started it all depends on the type of music they are making and the latencies they want to aim for. For asynchronous music where in-time rhythm isn't important (ie 0.5 to 1 sec delay) Zoom can be setup pretty well for music collaboration now. Next choice would be Sonobus which brings down the latency and provides great audio quality and controls to mask poor connections. Virtual Studio is a good choice if someone who knows what they are doing is setting it up for everyone and providing good technical support. The ease of connection once configured is the ideal situation. Jacktrip is good but still requires a bit of technical support in the setup and running of it. Once it's all working then it can be relatively easy to manage as long as everyone knows the steps involved. That is for Mac by the way. My early experiments with Jacktrip and Windows didn't pan out great (Windows and audio in general are not best friends to start with). I've avoided Windows and Jacktrip since then.

I used JamKazam back in 2016 after getting a few of the JamBlasters. It sort of worked but wasn't the most stable system. As soon as we discovered the Jacktrip app we switched to that and never spoke of JamKazam again. I see they re-awakened again recently but with all the other options around now I can't see us going back or testing again anytime soon.

Ben

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CACFa5NmHe66FkVnk7Pr%3DzNtFF6BaX33N%3DRCBiWyBoPFCMUxe8g%40mail.gmail.com.

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Ben Loveridge
www.benloveridge.com

[John Morrow]

Hello all,

Our choir didn't try the various alternatives to JackTrip. The director and I saw one of the demo videos (of Cantabile?) and we were sold.   We use the Virtual Studio Devices (VSDs) and the managed server in Stanford.  On seeing all the struggles people have gone through on this forum, I think it was a good call.  We have plenty of non-tech savvy seniors in our group so we wanted a turn-key solution.  This we found with the VSDs.  We have twenty two participants so far including the director and the accompanist.  A few people had trouble setting it up so I went to their houses, but with this page most people can figure it out for themselves.  The only downside has been the cost, but then again, you get what you pay for.

John

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[Brent Malnack]

I've got some different needs for a tool like this. We run a live music streaming show and the desire was to remote in players with people that are present in our home studio. Because there is video involved it is a fairly complex task. I tried several of the tools that are available and in terms of quality of results, JackTrip was the best performance (thanks Synthia!). However, for most of the musicians we interact with, the technical lift of JackTrip was too much. Since it was only going to be for a one-off performance and not a regular rehearsal, etc., working through all of the tech issues took away from the fun of the project.

I then heard about Sonobus. It had the audio quality of JackTrip, but was much easier to set up for a non-tech user. For now, this is the solution for us.

As mentioned above, our setup is fairly complex: We have a 4 input video switch running into a PC with OBS. We use a Presonus 24r (rackmount StudioLive) mixer that is used for the live mics and instruments in the studio. We then send a mix from the Presonus into Sonobus. This is where we had some major issues for a while. Sending the mix to Sonobus but allowing it to be heard by the in-house performers caused an audio feedback loop. So we ended up having to make an aux mix that is sent to OBS as a separate mix than the main mix. So the Sonobus feed is essentially mixed level-wise with our internal mix through OBS as it goes out over the stream. Since each performer has their own headphone mix, we can send the Sonobus mix to them without a feedback issue. While we have done some internal testing with this process, we have yet to do a live stream over the air with musicians in house paired with a remote performer. That day is coming soon and as per usual will likely be a rough voyage initially. Complicating this even further is that the video feed for the remote performer is sent via Zoom without audio. 

These are definitely exciting times!

[neal rhodes]

Help me out here:  "Zoom can be setup pretty well for music collaboration now."?   Last time we tried it, you can turn on Original Sound, but still, only the loudest voice gets gated on.   Did I miss something?

[Jon Raskin]

I’ve tried the Quack Suite, (quacktrip - peer to peer, netty mcnetface - server based, and music101- for choirs or larger groups, server mono only), Jack Trip, cleanfeed.org (Google based audio, Jamulus (setup with a local server and 15 or so users), and  soundjack.eu

SonoBus is what I use for small ensembles because it has the best sound, the ability to record individual and mixed tracks, has plugin for DAW’s and each user can modify the internet connection to get the best signal by changing the quality of audio and/or transfer rate.

The ability to add compression, reverb and EQ, and a panning tool that allows a point pan or a spread helps to create the feeling of room. It just feels better.

Latency is an odd thing.  I’ve gotten into some incredible grooves with players that are over a 1000 miles apart but we couldn’t play written music together. I play in a trio of bass and drums within 70 miles of each and we can play jazz tunes together but you really have to know them. The minute you start trying to play together you have a fight with latency. 

To get high quality music from a session we rely on each person recording themselves locally and we assemble them afterwards.

Jamulus, in participant in a weekly session of a group of 15+ players and people bring in improvisation ideas, written material, graphic scores and so on.  The group is past the initial tech setup and use and it’s beginning to feel more ‘natural’ a everyone figures out how to make it work. Everyone is mostly within 70 miles.

The same is true in the Jack Trip ensemble that I’ve been participating but the geographic spread is greater.

One issue is performance. In my opinion you need a technician to mix the music and send it out to the streaming platform for all the reasons you go to a studio to record. Since you are not together in a real room you have no sense of the overall balance.

Jon

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 10, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Wm Leler <w...@leler.com> wrote:



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[Michael Dessen]

Nice to see all this input and discussion, and thanks Wm for offering to share your work. I just wanted to quickly reinforce the point about mixing and say that in my view, that topic is a great example of how priorities (and therefore the best tool) differ across musical contexts. My sense is that the VS solution can be really great for large ensembles (if you have enough tech support), not only because of the relative ease of use for the end user, but also because for large groups (particularly choirs or other groups where the clients are relatively homogenous in sound and the idea is on an overall blend), it’s not as crucial to give each client the ability to make their own mix, and wouldn’t be practical anyway. However, in a small band with bass/drums/piano/horns, for example, it’s a huge difference if each person can make their own mix, including pan and reverb as Jon pointed out. Mixing by client input can only go so far and often isn’t enough to get the musical result we need in small group contexts. That is partially true for say a string quartet, but even there, where the sounds are relatively homogenous in quality, I think it’s a bit easier to get by with a VS solution without real mixing capacity compared to say a jazz combo, where it’s absolutely crucial that each player be able to set their own monitor level and the level of everyone else in the band, in their own unique mix. This is where Sonobus and Netty really stand out, especially Sonobus given that it doesn’t require setting up an audio server. Best,

Michael

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/71526DC1-8666-4BB3-B6C0-32ECF718D78F%40yahoo.com.

[Mike O'Connor]

i would add that Sonobus can support individual mixes for each player *and* a separate final mix down. one person runs Sonobus as a VST and does their personal mix separately from capturing an audio channel for each player in the DAW. lots of ways to configure that.

mike

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/8D4FBF8F-A59B-4302-94D7-5F41A89BD0B0%40gmail.com.

[Seablade -]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:26 AM neal rhodes <mnopn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Help me out here:  "Zoom can be setup pretty well for music collaboration now."?   Last time we tried it, you can turn on Original Sound, but still, only the loudest voice gets gated on.   Did I miss something?

Not who you are responding to, but I suspect this has to do with needs.  For instance I set up Jamulus after trying Jacktrip and other solutions last semester for my mixing class.  Shortly after the start of the semester Zoom introduced their new audio features, and I found that it was easier for me to present audio for the class over Zoom to the students with the appropriate settings, and in that case only one person needed to be heard (I run a mixer on my end to mix that audio and my mic, etc.) so for that Zoom worked well.  Similarly it was a lower technical hill for my students to climb to present their work over zoom as well in decent enough quality.

That being said next year I think I am giving Sonobus a good shot and see how that works.

       Seablade

[Michael Dessen]

> Last time we tried it, you can turn on Original Sound, but still, only the loudest voice gets gated on.

In Zoom you can set the advanced audio settings up so that when you turn on original sound it triggers high fidelity mode and can also disable echo cancellation and set to stereo audio. I haven’t tested to see how many people can be heard at the same time, but it definitely works with a few people. They bury it in advanced settings because obviously it causes huge problems if people aren’t using headphones or careful mic/speaker placement, so they don’t want people accidentally doing this.

Michael

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[Joe Janiga]

Here is a document I created that covers much of all of these platforms. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rAh0XiZU8tTPHaNzXkSUW8AgdB1HFi5c5skovLXT_kw/edit?usp=sharing

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[Michael Dessen]

PS - More to the point of the original post by Wm: I agree also with Seablade about Zoom (with the high fidelity updates) being a great tool now for high quality audio situations where low latency is *not* a priority. Many music teachers appreciate hearing this distinction because they might not want to deal with networked music performance software, but they do want better audio quality over zoom for lessons/masterclasses, and have the hardware to support it.

Michael

[David Theriault]

You should also have a look at audiomovers.com.  It should be noted that audiomovers don't position themselves in the sub-30ms latency technology - it is not what they do. Rather their plusses are:  very easy to set up and use, very reliable, high quality audio, fits easily into just about every DAW and flexible, attractive pricing.  The use they focus on is for Collaborative production.  For a group of musicians, hoping to work remotely and collaboratively on a recording, audiomovers is ideal. In such a project, interactive ensemble playing is often not required, latencies of 500ms to 2000ms are ok provided the product is solid and dependable. I've used it on a couple of projects and have been satisfied  with the method and pleased with the result.   So, although not the same thing as Jacktrip, its a very useful technology to consider.

David