j/92 vs. j/29
Rob G
a Kirby 25 owner lurking your J/92 forums because I'm seriously
considering buying one. As the subject title suggests I'm trying to
compare the j/92 to the j/29. I've read at least one article saying
things like the j/29's started five minutes behind us and ended up
finishing with or ahead of us. I believe that was on the JMOTO
website but I can't seem to find it now. The two things I really like
about the j/92 over the j/29 are the modernized cockpit and the
inboard diesel. On the other hand the j/29 has things which may make
it faster like an outboard which can be pulled out of the water and a
mast head rig. I am really tired of dealing with noisy outboards but
my ultimate goal is to win races so if it's a significant advantage
for me to deal with an outboard in the case of the j/29 and get a mast
head rig I probably would. I also plan on using a symmetrical chute
rather than an asymmetrical.
Can you guys write about your experiences and/or point me to where I
can find more information about this. I'm hoping your experiences
racing against j/29's are good because I would much rather get the
92. I believe the JMOTO article was about 10 years old too.
Thanks,
Rob
L Robinson
J29. I sail out of Willsboro Bay on the NY side, where everyone else is
either in Shelbourne Bay or Mallet's Bay on the Vermont side. I have
had the opportunity to sail against the J29 in Shelbourne Bay on one of
their Wed night races. Myself and crew are quite novice. The J29 is
sailed by a very good skipper and team. In the one race that I was in
with them (light summer evening airs), we were quite competitive and
able to keep up with them and even passed the boat once. We flew the
asym spinnaker against their sym spinnaker.
I find the J92s exceptionally easy to handle, fast, not hampered by the
sail drive, and the asym easy to fly and handle even for a novice. My
opinion leans towards the J92s for many reasons. But, I'll admit that
when the J29 crew is out there, they make their boat really fly and it's
a real pleasure to watch them.
Robi
Joe Cooper
My 2 cents worth not as an owner of a 92 but as a long time observer of both boats plus a nearly 40 year career in the marine industry including 20 plus yrs with a name sail maker
Things to think about, I reckon
Are you going to ONLY race ALL the time?
Do you have an established crew/team?
Will you ever want to just go for a sail in the afternoon?
Where are you sailing-predominantly what kind of air? light med fresh combo ...?
This has an impact on the spinnaker configuration
PHRF will account for an OB versus an IB, at least in most thinking jurisdictions.
Under what conditions have you head of the 29 blowing past the 92 in the way you describe--Must be light medium air for I cannot imagine the fatter, less stable 29 beating the more stable & thinner 92 in hard upwind air.
Do you sail in an area where there is any OD vor either class?
What kind of races do you do -all paperclip or government marks, distance?
Cheers
Coop
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "J/92 Owners" group.
To post to this group, send email to j92o...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to j92owners+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/j92owners?hl=en.
--
Joe Cooper
C: 401 965 6006
Bushra...@gmail.com
www.practicallysailing.com
Joe Cooper
Seems to me that the main difference twixt the 92 and the 29 in your area is the skipper, crew and by extension boat handling and tactics....
coop
Gene Cloutier
Although the J/92s is a wonderful boat, I'll stick to the original
discussion of comparing just the 92 & 29. In light air and flat water
the J/92 is consistently faster than the J/29 that we race against
here in Malletts Bay on Lake Champlain. In heavier air with waves,
the J/29, without having a bulb on the keel, may go thru the water a
little nicer upwind but going downwind our chances of catching up and
passing improve greatly on our J/92. In most any conditions a poorly
sailed J/92 will get beaten by a well sailed J/29 and of course the
opposite is true so if your only goal is to win, you do have to sail
well.
Do not under estimate the Fun Factor when selecting a boat. As far as
which boat is more fun to sail, it's a no-brainer. The J/92 has a
MUCH nicer cock-pit, no unruly spinnaker pole and with its inboard
rudder, the boat has a nicer feel to it as well.
Rod Carr
Andrew Oeftering
to crew of 8), ease of handling , downwind speed and light air performance.
The J/29s that perform well against us are always run by top skippers and
crews, which is always the deciding factor in any competition.
Andy Oeftering
Computer Troubleshooters
Red Bank - Eatontown - Tinton Falls, NJ
732-212-1001
-----Original Message-----
From: j92o...@googlegroups.com [mailto:j92o...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Imagine... J/92 #45
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:14 AM
To: J/92 Owners
Subject: [j92owners] Re: j/92 vs. j/29
Although the J/92s is a wonderful boat, I'll stick to the original
discussion of comparing just the 92 & 29. In light air and flat water
the J/92 is consistently faster than the J/29 that we race against
here in Malletts Bay on Lake Champlain. In heavier air with waves,
the J/29, without having a bulb on the keel, may go thru the water a
little nicer upwind but going downwind our chances of catching up and
passing improve greatly on our J/92. In most any conditions a poorly
sailed J/92 will get beaten by a well sailed J/29 and of course the
opposite is true so if your only goal is to win, you do have to sail
well.
Do not under estimate the Fun Factor when selecting a boat. As far as
which boat is more fun to sail, it's a no-brainer. The J/92 has a
MUCH nicer cock-pit, no unruly spinnaker pole and with its inboard
rudder, the boat has a nicer feel to it as well.
Rod Carr
On Jan 30, 7:00 am, L Robinson <lrob...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
--
Todd Aven
Having raced as both crew and skipper for a couple of seasons on a J/29 and as crew on Hustler (the best of 'em), I'm happy to offer my two cents worth of opinions.
Hull Form
The J/29 is a water plow. Great for upwind performance, but it will never get out of the water on a breezy downwind leg. It's beamier than the J/92 by a foot, which gives it more form stability. The relatively flat aft portion of the J/92 hull makes incredibly easy to turn on a dime (if you want). The J/92 can outmaneuver just about any boat in close quarters (starting line, mark rounds, etc.). However, the J/29 has a significant advantage in choppy conditions because of the fine entry on the bow, reducing the amount of pitch produced by the waves.
Steering
The J/29's transom-hung rudder makes it a bear to handle when the breeze is up. The J/92 has a balanced rudder that NEVER loads up, even on a power reachh.
Foils
There is at least a generation of design improvement in the J/92 keel and rudder compared to the J/29. The J/92 produces much more lift from the foils than the J/29 does. The bulb on the J/92 means that you have more righting moment than the J/29, even though displacement is about the same.
Rig/Sail Plan
The J/29 comes in two flavors: masthead and fractional. The J/92 has only the fractional rig. PHRF gives 3-6 seconds/mile credit for the J/29 fractional rig, but the experts in the class don't see that much of a difference. Whichever rig you end up with, you have to learn how to tune it well. Last season I was in a regatta with 3 J/29's and two J/92's. I didn't have my rig tuned properly and was eaten alive by two of the 29's sailed by experienced teams.
Engine
If you like lifting heavy, awkward, oily objects around on your boat while it's bouncing in the waves, by all means get yourself an outboard! 'Nuff said.
Upwind
In light air (with the rig tuned properly), we've had faster VMG than Hustler. In moderate breeze, we struggle to keep up. When the breeze really comes on, we're pretty even (assuming excellent boat handling, which is not easy!).
Downwind
Light air we're sailing much the same angles as a J/29, but the asymm is better suited to those angles so we have a distinct advantage. Moderate breeze goes to the J/29 because they can basically point at the mark with the pole squared back. Heavy air goes to the J/92 (assuming excellent boat handling, which is not easy!). If you set your boat up for symmetric kites in addition to asymmetric, you will close the gap in performance in the moderate conditions but you will also require more and better crew.
Bottom Line
The all-around potential for the J/92 to win is significantly greater, as long as you invest the time to learn the boat, perfect the handling of the boat and tuning of the rig. You will find more outright fun in the J/92 than the J/29. You will need less crew to have fun, but there's room to take on more crew if that suits your fancy.
The old article about a J/29 starting five minutes behind and finishing ahead may well be true, but there are an awful lot of factors to take into consideration. In a 115nm race last summer with desperately light wind (2-8kts for 30 hours), we finished scratch ahead of all but three maxis in a 78-boat fleet because the J/92 is a killer is light air. The best tales will always come from extreme conditions. :-)
Get a J/92 and enjoy the ride. With the help of this community I'm sure you'll get all the information you need to outperform your competition.
Cheers,
Todd
J/92 #14 "Thin Man"
http://www.thinmansailing.net/
On 1/30/2010 3:01 AM, Rob G wrote:
Andrew Oeftering
I forgot to mention, the J/92 is a much better boat to maneuver a starting line. It turns on a dime and gets up to full speed in a hurry. Also if you’ve ever seen a well performing J29, it’s got a crew of NFL linebackers on the rail.
Andy Oeftering
Computer Troubleshooters
Red Bank - Eatontown - Tinton Falls, NJ
732-212-1001
Andrew Oeftering
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
Andy Oeftering
Computer Troubleshooters
Red Bank - Eatontown - Tinton Falls, NJ
732-212-1001
From: j92o...@googlegroups.com [mailto:j92o...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Todd Aven
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010
11:22 AM
To: j92o...@googlegroups.com
Todd Aven
Rob G
for. I will not actually racing against any j/29's for now but if the
j/29 was actually a faster boat but with with a 111-114 phrf then I
would seriously consider buying it. I completely agree that no boat
is going to win a race without a competent crew. I've been racing now
for 3 years and know better than that. I do believe some boats have
cherry ratings though. I was just wondering how one well sailed 92
would compare to a 29. It's obvious by reviewing the responses here
that the 92 is superior in every way which is good news because that's
the boat I really want. My only beef with the asymmetrical is the
location I'm sailing at. The Potomac River in Washington DC is not
very wide. Although I don't know from experience I would think that
gybing several times between the govt. marks we use on the river would
be a significant disadvantage. It all depends on how deep I'm able to
sail. As I said in some of my earlier threads the majority of our
racing is done in winds from about 3-8 and from what you all have said
the 92 is a great performer in these conditions. Somebody had
mentioned in one of my earlier threads the possibility of using a
symmetrical with 110% pole. I believe I would only get a 3 seconds/
mile penalty for that combination. I guess once I get the boat I can
try every combination and see what works best.
I'm already on the list at my marina to upgrade to 30' slip, should be
something opening up by this summer. At that point I will sell the
Kirby and move up to a 92.
Bruce Santerre
taken our J92 to Lake Michigan for the Chi-Mac race and to Charleston for
Charleston Race Week (W/L 2.0 courses). Prior to this I crewed on a very
competitive J29, MHOB for 5 years. A few years back, we placed 9th in a
fleet of 49 boats in the MORC International event on Lake Minnetonka on the
J29.
What this boils down to is picking the "right horse for the race." What
type of racing will you primarily be doing--W/L buoy racing, triangle buoy
racing, or point to point racing including distance racing? What type of
prevailing wind conditions and wave action do you see on the course? What
type of handicap system will you be racing under--PHRF, ORR or some other
system?
What I have learned is this: a well sailed J29 in medium to heavy air on a
W/L course is extremely tough to beat with a J92 in all rating systems
(based on experience at Charleston). The J92 (assuming PHRF optimized,
e.g., 91 sq. mtr. asail and 155 genoa)is competitive in light air conditions
despite the masthead chute on the J29. I believe this would be the case in
both PHRF and ORR scoring. In point to point sailing with reaching and
close reaching conditions, the J92 is very competitive in all wind
conditions. If seas are running 4-8 feet, the J92 will break loose and
sustain surfing speeds slightly longer down wind if the boat is being sailed
to its velocity prediction program. Approximately 12 years ago, we scored
2nd in section in the Chi-Mac on a 92 I crewed on when the race was scored
using PHRF. After the conversion to Americap and now ORR, we have placed
only as high as 5th in a section of approximately 25 boats. We score
mid-fleet in 2 other ORR, Mac races. In the ORR system, as an example, the
J35 (PHRF--66-72 sec/mile) gives the J92 approximately 30 minutes in a 54
hr., 330 mile Mac race. Bottomline-it is extremely tough to sail the J92 to
its ORR rating unless the winds are light to moderate in close reaching
conditions.
The J29 is a great boat, but I prefer our J92. We are very competitive
locally against several, very well sailed J30's, a J105, S2 9.1, and a
Carrera 290. If I can answer any questions, please contact me. Thanks.
Bruce
Split Decision, J92
-----Original Message-----
From: j92o...@googlegroups.com [mailto:j92o...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Rob G
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:01 AM
To: J/92 Owners
Thanks,
Rob
--
Rob G
fleet was racing against the J/92. We have a well sailed 7.9 in my
fleet that literally wins almost every race. The other 7.9's aren't
as well sailed but even they finish well. It looks like the 7.9 in
the Lake Champlain Yacht Club is winning all of it's races in it's
class as well granted the J/92 is not in it's class. We are normally
within the top half of the fleet with my Kirby and took a first once.
It seems as though the 7.9 sails to it's rating much easier. 7.9's
are going to be my main competitors, we have something like 4 in the
fleet now. We also have an S2 10.3 which always sails by himself at
the front of the fleet, he's always 1st or 2nd. It will be nice to
give him some boat to boat competition instead of him having clear air
the entire race which obviously makes winning races a lot easier.
As far as picking the right horse for the race. We are racing with
the PHRF handicap system. We use govt marks going up and down the
Potomac River so sometimes it's windward leeward courses, sometimes
it's not. It just depends on what direction the wind is blowing.
Given that the river is not all that wide I think I'm going to have to
use a symmetrical spinnaker. On the days that the wind is blowing
across the river the asymmetrical would work well but I would take a
hit for saying that I want to fly both types of spinnakers. On a side
note do any of you know at what point you have to declare which
spinnaker you are going to fly? Even if you take the penalty for
flying both types of spinnakers I thought at some point you have to
decide which one you are going to use in a race and that you can't use
both. If someone could clarify that would be really helpful. Also
the majority of our sailing is in light to very light air with some
power boat chop. Sounds like a pleasure doesn't it? :)
I think what it boils down to is there is no perfect boat for PHRF.
Each boat has it's advantages and disadvantages but clearly some boats
seem to have more advantages than others. From what I've learned here
the 92 is a really fun boat to sail and can be very competitive. I
think it has potential and I'm going to have to experiment with it for
half a season or so to see what's going to make the boat competitive
in my local conditions.
I have a question about the archives - why can I see the titles of
threads and an email address but that's it. I've found a lot of
things that looked interesting but I have found no way to access the
body of the threads.
Andy Dennis
Andy
Sent from my BT ToGo
To find out more visit www.bt.com/broadbandanywhere
--
Rob G
latest Asymmetricals what kind of angles are we talking about in the
3-10 true wind range?
Pete....@neilson.com
We are developing a new kite shape with Hyde at the moment. And it is looking stable and deep. Got another test sail this week - snow permitting.
Best regards
Pete T
Pete Tyler
Managing Director
Neilson Active Holidays
Swiss Travel Service
Skidomtrips
www.neilson.co.uk
Sent from my handheld
So I may not be in the office & sorry about the spelling!
Please call me if urgent.
Mob +44 7803 179599
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob G [mailto:rgi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:57 PM GMT Standard Time
To: J/92 Owners
Subject: [j92owners] Re: j/92 vs. j/29
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "J/92 Owners" group.
To post to this group, send email to j92o...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to j92owners+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/j92owners?hl=en.
Don't just book it. Thomas Cook it.
Visit us at http://www.thomascook.com/, Thomas Cook and Going Places stores nationwide, tune in to Thomas Cook TV Sky digital channel 655 or call 0844 412 5959
This email is confidential, may be legally privileged and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be otherwise.
Thomas Cook Group UK Limited
Registered Office - The Thomas Cook Business Park, Coningsby Road, Peterborough, PE3 8SB
Company registration number: 2319744 England
Don't just book it. Thomas Cook it.
Visit us at http://www.thomascook.com/, Thomas Cook and Going Places stores nationwide, tune in to Thomas Cook TV Sky digital channel 655 or call 0844 412 5959
This email is confidential, may be legally privileged and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error.
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be otherwise.
Thomas Cook Group UK Limited
Registered Office - The Thomas Cook Business Park, Coningsby Road, Peterborough, PE3 8SB
Company registration number: 2319744 England
Rob G
Just found out a boat I race against draws 6' 3" and is able to get in
and out of our marina at low tide although sometimes with a lot mud
plowing (the entrance channel to the marina has a shallow spot). I
thought he only drew 6' but at 6' 3" I'll be almost 6 inches shorter
than him, I shouldn't have any problems at all.
I already have a connection at Chesapeake North Sails who I've ordered
several sails from in the past. I'll probably start bugging him about
the latest asymmetrical designs for the 92.
Rob G
but a sail maker who happens to love this boat? I think I also
remember something about you saying you weren't able to advertise
anything. If you have any information you would like to send me
directly that would be good.
Pete....@neilson.com
My business is Neilson Active Holidays - hence the sponsored boat name. We also use Hyde and DP commercially. If you want a sailing or ski holiday we can help out!!!
I don't think this forum should become an advertising site. But if 'suppliers' want to contribute to debates I don't see any harm. Google will find their services
PS - we didn't get a chance to test our new Hyde runner yesterday. The UK weather beat us - had a good curry the night before instead - will try again next week. That's why we ski in the winter!! Just returned from ideal conditions in the French Alpes
Best regards
Pete T
Pete Tyler
Managing Director
Neilson Active Holidays
Swiss Travel Service
Skidomtrips
www.neilson.co.uk
Sent from my handheld
So I may not be in the office & sorry about the spelling!
Please call me if urgent.
Mob +44 7803 179599
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob G [mailto:rgi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 05:22 AM GMT Standard Time
To: J/92 Owners
Subject: [j92owners] Re: j/92 vs. j/29
--
Pete....@neilson.com
Ragtime!
Island. He's posted here a fair bit.
I *think* he said he likes the 92. He's more of a 105 guy but I've
forgiven him.
Imagine... J/92 #45
discussion of comparing just the 92 & 29. In light air and flat water
the J/92 is consistently faster than the J/29 that we race against
here in Malletts Bay on Lake Champlain. In heavier air with waves,
the J/29, without having a bulb on the keel, may go thru the water a
little nicer upwind but going downwind our chances of catching up and
passing improve greatly on our J/92. In most any conditions a poorly
sailed J/92 will get beaten by a well sailed J/29 and of course the
opposite is true so if your only goal is to win, you do have to sail
well.
Do not under estimate the Fun Factor when selecting a boat. As far as
which boat is more fun to sail, it's a no-brainer. The J/92 has a
MUCH nicer cock-pit, no unruly spinnaker pole and with its inboard
rudder, the boat has a nicer feel to it as well.
Rod Carr
On Jan 30, 7:00 am, L Robinson <lrob...@nycap.rr.com> wrote: