Kirby 25 owner looking to trade up to J/92
Rob G
design of the j/92 over my Kirby 25 are all appealing. I've looked at
a lot of boats and I always come back to this one.
I have some questions, hopefully some of you will be kind enough to
answer. I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be competitive
racing the j/92 in a PHRF fleet in Washington DC. Unfortunately we
see a lot of light winds here, the majority of the winds we see are
from 2 - 8 during the summer months. Conditions improve at the
beginning and end of the season. The most competitive boats in the
fleet are an s2 7.9(~170) and s2 10.3(~115), all boats use
symmetricals. They regularly beat the 2 Kirby's in the fleet.
Current plays a significant roll in tactics on the Potomac (especially
when you're only going 2 knots), with the 92 I will not be able to
square the poll when I'm trying to run straight down one side of the
river or the other to stay in shallow water (less current). With the
92 if I'm able to pick up enough speed by sailing angles rather than
sailing straight down selected side of river maybe it will work out to
my advantage.
I had originally planned to just rig the boat with a symmetrical if I
bought it but it seems from what I've read here most think that's not
a great solution. What if the conditions were as I have described?
How hard is it to rig a symmetrical? Spinnaker hoist will be the same
but running a topping lift would be complicated. Seems to me I would
have to hire someone to make modifications to the mast for an entry
and exit for the topping lift haylard. Downhaul would take some work
but should be easier than the topping lift and I could do that
myself. I've got foredeck people the love doing foredeck so the
inconvenience of the symmetrical isn't really an issue, I'm looking
for maximum performance.
Bottom line, am I going to be kicking myself after I get this boat
because the s2's are making my life miserable?
Todd Aven
The J/92 is especially good in light airs. The hull form and light
displacement make for very low wetted surface. I race against a couple
of S2 9.1's and never have to worry about them in under 10kts. I have
collected plenty of trophies as a result of the all-to-common drifting
conditions on Western Long Island Sound in the summer. :-)
If you really love a symmetrical spinnaker, it's not a big deal to rig
the boat for it. You don't need a dedicated topping lift, just use your
spare jib halyard. The foreguy could be rigged with a folding padeye on
the foredeck behind the bow cleat (or you could just lash a block to the
cleat if you wanted to spare your deck).
Cheers,
Todd Aven
J/92 #14 "Thin Man"
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Ragtime!
The first year I had my 92 I raced with our local club here on the
river. The downwind leg was upstream and the symmetric-kited boats
did just as you describe - they squared their poles back and hugged
the shoreline. With the assymetric I had to angle out into the river
and I was usually toast because of the current. BUT that was usually
in 16-20 knots of wind. In the light conditions you describe, the
symmetric-kited boats should be sailing hotter so their advantage
diminishes. Also, the assymetric running spinnakers have improved
over the years since I bought my boat, and with good technique you can
sail quite deep with good VMG. You do lose some on the gybes since
the assymetric collapses.
Hot Toddy (#91) down in Florida raced for years with a symmetric
spinnaker and was always the boat to beat. He even took the sprit out
of the hull. As I recall he used a "penalty pole" (J+10%) and larger
spinnakers - if you fish around on our class website you can find an
old article about his set-up. I teach some on J/80's and we have a
couple of them set up with conventional spinnakers. Usually the crew
on the assymetric boat has to nail their gybes perfectly (both
technique and gybing angles) to beat the symmetric-kited crew on a W/L
course, and a J/80 uses assymetrics more effectively than the J/92
(the 80 planes more readily, driving AWA forward).
Either way, the 92 is great in light air when carefully sailed and you
won't be disappointed. I would study your local PHRF rules to see
which configuration will give you the best advantage. Some PHRF
regions hit oversized spinnakers and penalty poles pretty hard. If
that doesn't pencil out, I'd get a large, light 2A (like Todd has) and
practice a bunch. You'll do fine.
Bob J.
Gene Cloutier
Rob G
was looking for. Glad to hear J/92 owners are regularly beating the
S2's. Winning the overall fleet definitely says something about what
the boat can do in capable hands. Sounds like rigging a symmetrical
is no big deal at all, makes me want the boat even more. If PHRF of
the Chesapeake follows their book the 110% pole should be a 3 seconds/
mile penalty, definitely worth it in my opinion. Not sure what kind
of penalty I'm going to get if I just switch to a symmetrical
permanently, I know if you use both asymmetrical and symmetrical there
is a penalty.
Probably going to be buying in May or June, I wish I could buy now
because I've found a boat that looks unusually clean, hopefully I'll
get lucky and it will still be on the market then. Any issues to look
out for when buying this boat?
Another question, how much wind does it take to get the boat to plane
and what kind of speeds do you see? I'm not going to buy the boat
because I think it's going to plane like a Melges 32 but I am curious
what your experiences are.
Thanks again,
-Rob
On Dec 29, 12:58 pm, Gene Cloutier <gdclout...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> The 92 is one of the best light air boats out there. We sail on Lake
> Champlain in Vermont and much of the conditions here, especially Wednesday
> night series, is light winds as the prevailing winds on the lake are 5-12.
> There is a well sailed S2 7.9 but primarily race against, J29's, all
> configurations (5-6), Pearson 37 (2), C&C 99 (2), 92s (1) and we are very
> competitive. We have won the overall in fleet (approx 50 boats range from
> Sonar to J120) trophy the last 2 years. I don't think you will have a
> problem.
>
> However, I do have to say that there is definitely a learning curve to the
> assymetrical both on trim and driving. I presume if you are used to sailing
> in light winds you are already sailing angles. Assym don't like the dead
> downwind unless it's blowing. I think you're only concern will be if there
> is a narrow to stay out of current that would prevent you from sailing
> angles.
>
> Gene
> SurRealEscape
>
> > j92owners+...@googlegroups.com<j92owners%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
Rob G
outboard. I'm all for improving performance but I can't see doing
that to this boat. I would much rather have the inboard and keep the
6 seconds a mile. I'm so tired of outboards cranking away 3 feet from
my ear. Must have worked for him though if he was the boat to beat.
Ragtime!
> Any issues to look out for when buying this boat?
Typical balsa-cored hull and deck issues. Find a surveyor who knows
how to use a moisture meter (Tramex, etc.) because many don't know
how. Example: There have been boats with ablative bottom paint that
was read as wet core on the meter when the hull was actually sound.
Once you get someone who knows what they're doing with the meter, have
them check the readings in the hull, mainly around the through-hulls
and speed/depth transducers, which can be installed improperly
allowing water to penetrate the core. In the deck and cockpit, it's
usually owner-installed tracks or hardware that wasn't installed
properly, again allowing moisture to penetrate the balsa. Also check
around the chain plates - the slots were cut through the deck skins
and balsa core without the core being sealed around the slots.
Unbelievable but true!
The mainsheet swivel on the cockpit floor has also been an entry point
for core moisture - the factory didn't use fender washers or a backing
plate to spread the load, and the swivel would work loose and allow
water in around the bolts. The older 92's like mine had a through-
deck block on the bow for the sprit control line - check for moisture
around that. A couple of boats have had significant moisture in the
foredecks.
None of this is catastrophic or even that abnormal for cored boats -
it's just expensive to fix.
The Hall rigs were overbuilt so you're probably okay there - just look
for corrosion where SS fasteners were installed in the aluminum
spars. There are four machine screws attaching the gooseneck casting
to the boom. Those get stripped and the gooseneck casting starts
wobbling around - I added four more for offshore and the fitting has
stayed tight. If it has a solid vang, check the fasteners.
Anyone else?
> Another question, how much wind does it take to get the boat to plane and what kind of speeds do you see? I'm not going to buy the boat
> because I think it's going to plane like a Melges 32 but I am curious what your experiences are.
Yeah, it surfs great but it takes flat water and a capful of wind to
plane. My record is 15.8k sustained but it took well into the 20's to
get there. The boat is pretty stable though - that was on autopilot
and I was trimming the kite with one hand and drinking a soda with the
other. Pretty consistent 12's to 14's surfing in the ocean.
Bob J.
Ragtime!
me though - the Yanmar 1GM10 is no longer made and some say for good
reason. The main thing to look for/watch is the oil pipes that cross
under the front of the engine. The water pump will leak a bit and
salt water will drip down on to the oil pipes, corroding them
through. Then all your oil is down in the pan. Otherwise a decent
(and light) little engine. Some owners replaced the stock Martec prop
with a Flex-O-Fold (or other brands) for better motoring performance.
Motoring into wind and chop taxes the little 9 hp diesel and it's hard
to maintain hull speed.
Sounds like a lot of negatives but at least you know what they are.
It's really a great little boat and a delight to sail. I'm investing
heavily in a refit on mine (16+ years old) because there's nothing
else out there I would want to replace it with.